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Makumba wrote:
Our play group is made out of people from the same 2 schools, out of the 4 people I play against 2 are my family and 1 my aunts husbands son and one is my boyfriend. Aside for getting married it is impossible to get more socialized with the 20+people here . And chating will get me nothing. When 7th started I already felt that it is going to suck for me, so I ask If I can use the special characters from the old IG codex . The anwser in every time was "no". Then I tried to play non mealstorm missions, because my army is impossible to win them. The anwser was always "no" too.
And leaving the group is impossible.

It seems to me that you need to save your pennies and buy a twin turbo-laser Warhound Titan, with the expectation that you will be allowed to field it in every game henceforth.

4 S(D) large blasts per turn will do wonders for your IG competitiveness. And at 750 pts, it'll greatly improve the speed with which your IG army plays.

Good luck.

It is always fascinating to read threads like these. They are always populated by two seemingly diametrically opposed sides. One will enjoy the game in any format, realizing it is a game and having fun with it. The other will never enjoy it, always finding something to bitch and moan about and never having any fun with it.

I myself try to fall in the first camp because it seems all the bitchers and whiners don't actually play the game, just spend their time bitching and whining.

My group has fun with the current rule set. The other day i played watchhammer when my buddy beat a guy at our flgs, blastra militarum beating eldar. It was a blast for all involved (pun intended).

Having looked back at some posts it is clear that several of you admit to not playing warhammer 40k which then brings up a question. Why are you so obsessed with bitching and whining about a game you don't even play? Its like a cult of complaining with you heretics.

There is also the rather funny ramification of you being tfg in that your bitching ends up leading people, such as myself before i really got into the hobby, to ignore negativity. When you realize that many, if not most, of the comments that hate on all things GW are coming from tfg who doesn't even play, suddenly all negative comments lose credibility, true or not. Add in the ridiculousness of your "sky-is-falling" narrative and it becomes apparent that many if not most negative comments are exaggerated if not false.

In the end im going to go and enjoy the game, and avoid playing with tfg like you.

Tankman131 wrote:
The other will never enjoy it, always finding something to bitch and moan about and never having any fun with it.

You're forgetting the part where the people that are completely happy with 40K also agree with Hitler and they eat puppies.

Or we could, you know... actually listen to what the other side is saying and not have to COMPLETELY FABRICATE WHAT THEY ARE SAYING

Did you forget the part where many are long time players, recently losing interest in 6th and 7th time frames? Or that they actually have detailed reasons on why the current meta is something they have a distaste for. Where most talk about 5th as a decently balanced set.

Tankman131 wrote:
It is always fascinating to read threads like these. They are always populated by two seemingly diametrically opposed sides. One will enjoy the game in any format, realizing it is a game and having fun with it. The other will never enjoy it, always finding something to bitch and moan about and never having any fun with it.

I myself try to fall in the first camp because it seems all the bitchers and whiners don't actually play the game, just spend their time bitching and whining.

My group has fun with the current rule set. The other day i played watchhammer when my buddy beat a guy at our flgs, blastra militarum beating eldar. It was a blast for all involved (pun intended).

Having looked back at some posts it is clear that several of you admit to not playing warhammer 40k which then brings up a question. Why are you so obsessed with bitching and whining about a game you don't even play? Its like a cult of complaining with you heretics.

There is also the rather funny ramification of you being tfg in that your bitching ends up leading people, such as myself before i really got into the hobby, to ignore negativity. When you realize that many, if not most, of the comments that hate on all things GW are coming from tfg who doesn't even play, suddenly all negative comments lose credibility, true or not. Add in the ridiculousness of your "sky-is-falling" narrative and it becomes apparent that many if not most negative comments are exaggerated if not false.

In the end im going to go and enjoy the game, and avoid playing with tfg like you.

It must be a nice dimension you live in where anyone who disagrees with you is just a "bitcher and whiner who isn't actually a part of my hobby."

I'd imagine thinking that way makes it easy to dismiss anything anyone says without having to make an argument or give a reason beyond "I'm happy so it's not my problem."

Back here in the real world, we have a more nuanced view of subjects, such as the possibility of enjoying something in the past but not finding it satisfactory now, or seeing the potential in something and feeling frustrated that development seems incapable or unwilling to tap into it. Here, I'll give you an example:

I've always been a big fan of the creative side of tabletop gaming, and the aesthetic of 40k appeals to me in a way that pretty much no other game does. So when I started, I was very excited about learning the rules and playing whenever I could. My group was small, and we all learned around the same time so for the most part things were relatively cool. However, as the game developed over the next few years, we suddenly found that many match-ups we played were horribly one-sided. We tried our best to make it work, but my group didn't feel confident enough to write house-rules on our own (since we were all new enough that we couldn't do impartial testing of whether rules were actually balanced or just reactionary to our highly-specific 5 person meta). Moreover, the increase in rules bloat going from 5th to 7th meant that prep time for games took much longer - and since we only had 1 table, it often resulted in playing bizarro 2v2s (which dragged on horribly) or just watching 2 people play while everyone else went off to do MTG. This combination of problems, on top of the high cost to play, drove everyone away from the game. We all enjoyed the concept, but the execution was so flawed none of us wanted to keep investing in the hobby; we got more value from other forms of entertainment.

If you want a happy ending... I ended up finding BFG which I am enjoying immensely. You can really tell that Andy, Gavin, and Jervis really put their heart and soul into making the system work so elegantly, even with a huge amount of complexity.

So, TL;DR: Nothing is black and white, no matter how much you want it to be.

Tankman131 wrote:
One will enjoy the game in any format, realizing it is a game and having fun with it. The other will never enjoy it, always finding something to bitch and moan about and never having any fun with it.

That's an odd generalisation.


Seeing flaws in something doesn't always preclude having fun with it. Nor does 'realising that it's a game' preclude seeing any flaws and wanting them to be fixed.


What you have done is demonstrated just why so many people have issues with these sorts of discussions - they try to paint everyone into these black-and-white categories that simply don't hold up to actual scrutiny.

If my enjoyment of 40k comes down to a few games a year, am I still allowed to complain about things I don't like?

Maybe if GW fixed those things, I'd play more 40k. After all, GW fixing WFB got me to break out my WFB minis after years of gathering dust.

Tankman131 wrote:
The other will never enjoy it, always finding something to bitch and moan about and never having any fun with it.

You know, it's amazing how many of the people on this supposed "side" are able to have fun with other games. It's almost as if the complaints about 40k (and AoS) have much more to do with legitimate flaws in the game than negativity for the sake of negativity.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Makumba wrote:
Our play group is made out of people from the same 2 schools, out of the 4 people I play against 2 are my family and 1 my aunts husbands son and one is my boyfriend. Aside for getting married it is impossible to get more socialized with the 20+people here . And chating will get me nothing. When 7th started I already felt that it is going to suck for me, so I ask If I can use the special characters from the old IG codex . The anwser in every time was "no". Then I tried to play non mealstorm missions, because my army is impossible to win them. The anwser was always "no" too.
And leaving the group is impossible.

It seems to me that you need to save your pennies and buy a twin turbo-laser Warhound Titan, with the expectation that you will be allowed to field it in every game henceforth.

4 S(D) large blasts per turn will do wonders for your IG competitiveness. And at 750 pts, it'll greatly improve the speed with which your IG army plays.

Good luck.

No FW here. So saving for a titan won't help me, as I won't be able to play with it.

You know, it's amazing how many of the people on this supposed "side" are able to have fun with other games. It's almost as if the complaints about 40k (and AoS) have much more to do with legitimate flaws in the game than negativity for the sake of negativity.

This is so true. I also play some infinity and some warmahordes. I play cygnar without the uber jack, for like a year I couldn't get my hands on some realy must have models, and yet I never felt that I have 0% chance to win. Even games where I lost, I learned new stuff and the games were fun. Infinity is great, we don't have enough terrain for it, but the games are never boring and realy dynamic. And there is always some actual narrative to the games, because of the missions. In warmahordes it is even better, because scenario packs represent different fronts and you feel like your actualy taking part in a war.
With w40k, the only thing one learns is that math does not lie, nor is magic.

I just wanted to say the people who complain the most about 40k don't necessarily hate it, and the people who want to applaud it often don't actually play many games.

I really hated 6th edition rules and don't actually play 7th edition (maybe 4 games since it came out.) I do play other editions at my FLGS b/c I am fortunate enough to have friends with the same sense of nostalgia.

But this gets to the state of the game. We all have things we like, we all have things we don't like, and the difference seems to be more around the way players communicate than anything else. People make too much out of other people's opinions.

I love 40k, which is why I complain about it so much. Seeing it be run into the ground pains me.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I love 40k, which is why I complain about it so much. Seeing it be run into the ground pains me.

It was a huge investment for something I loved and now, well its hard to even find someone willing to play.

It's often the way that people complain because they care.

People like me who played 4th and 5th, then gave up during 6th because of price/rules issues, are not suffering from a personality disorder developed suddenly about three years ago.

We just don't like the way things have been developed by GW, and we are suggesting ways they could be done better to suit everyone.

I just wanted to say the people who complain the most about 40k don't necessarily hate it, and the people who want to applaud it often don't actually play many games.

There is a third camp here however, those of us that dont hate 40k, do applaud (certain aspects of) it and still play regularly.
As someone else said, its not all black and white with two directly opposed camps.

Others have addressed the main points, but you keep using TFG, I don't think it means what you think it means.

But using your definition of TFG, I must be because I don't actively play the game, I mean it's not like 6th and 7th killed 40k in my area and there's nobody left for me to have a game against, but how dare I keep track of a hobby that I have spent money on, sliced up my thumb when I was younger and still buy Horus Heresy stuff in the hope that I can attract someone into playing that instead. How dare I.

You're right I should just stop caring about something that was ruined in my area because of the mistakes of the owning company and the ramshackle direction they have taken it in.

Pointing out that all you bitchers and whiners who are tfg spends what they call a life complaining about a game they dont even play is like seeding a salt mine.

Tankman131 wrote:
Pointing out that all you bitchers and whiners who are tfg spends what they call a life complaining about a game they dont even play is like seeding a salt mine.

I see that you're done adding anything worthwhile to this thread then.

 Blacksails wrote:

Tankman131 wrote:
Pointing out that all you bitchers and whiners who are tfg spends what they call a life complaining about a game they dont even play is like seeding a salt mine.

I see that you're done adding anything worthwhile to this thread then.

It's always refreshing having new posters join the forum and just start insulting everyone for not seeing things exactly the way they believe they are. It's a Dakka tradition!

Here's a quick reminder for everyone - RULE #1 is not optional.

Rule 1: Be Polite
This seems obvious, however many folks can sometimes forget that common courtesy goes a long way to lending respect to both you and your opinions. Just because you don't see the other users' faces doesn't mean they don't have feelings and won't be hurt by rude comments or offensive images. When you see something that you find silly, rude or insulting first assume that perhaps there is more to it than you initially thought. Look at it again, keeping in mind that tone and inflection is difficult to convey in a visual format. It may be that the person is attempting a joke or is exaggerating on purpose. It is best to politely request clarification before accusing someone being ignorant, a liar, or worse.

If after clarification you still disagree with the person then politely outline your points. Try to avoid name-calling or even implying insults wherever possible. These tactics generally only inflame a situation and lead to what are known as "Flame Wars." Whenever a flame war starts it usually ruins a perfectly good discussion. Others will lose interest in the thread and the site in general if this kind of interchange becomes a common occurrence.

Please remember that posting and reading online is a visual format and as such the spelling, grammar and look of your posts is the only way others understand what you are saying. Therefore, in order to be polite, all users are expected to make an effort to use proper spelling, grammar and punctuation and should refrain from using internet shorthand or other distracting methods of writing, such as writing a post completely bolded, with capital letters, in a strange color, etc.

It also should go without saying that swearing, profanity, sexual references, etc, are strictly forbidden, including all images that are posted on or uploaded to our site. Remember that we have users of all ages and that Dakka should be a welcoming place for everyone to enjoy.

Here are the rest of the rules:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/forum_rules.jsp

 Peregrine wrote:

Tankman131 wrote:
The other will never enjoy it, always finding something to bitch and moan about and never having any fun with it.

You know, it's amazing how many of the people on this supposed "side" are able to have fun with other games. It's almost as if the complaints about 40k (and AoS) have much more to do with legitimate flaws in the game than negativity for the sake of negativity.

Holy freaking goodness a Peregrine in the wild!
When did you get back?
Not that a thread like this would not attract.
Other than that statement, yep, funny how with X-wing, Battletech, SW Armada... among many others seem to play so much more nicely than 40k.
I love my models, used to love the game, not so much but you know, we just "forge the new rules" to something usable in our group and keep on trucking.
We should not have to do that however, it is not an endorsement for bad rules.

Tankman131 wrote:
Pointing out that all you bitchers and whiners who are tfg spends what they call a life complaining about a game they dont even play is like seeding a salt mine.

Well haven't used the ignore file in a while and look 2 people added to it in one thread suddenly. Amazing...

As a 28 year 40k veteran. I think I've got plenty of time and money invested into this hobby to say whatever I want about it. Laughable when 2 newbs come in and start insulting everyone and acting like only they know anything about the game and playing it. Over 38 years I've played a lot of games in a lot of different scales and genres and 40k is the only one in all that time that I am forced to hide away in my home with a specially selected group of other players who approach the game the same way I do in order to keep having fun with it. I can even take a long out of print game like Blood bowl to the local store and have a better experience playing than I can 40k these days. 40k has never been a perfect game, because they kept changing it too much instead of improving and streamlining it through the years, but the current turn to make expensive new models cheaper in a codex or free to encourage people to buy more of them is killing it. Plain and simple. Sure the power gamers like Tankman and Solous are happy with things because that is how they play and what the game works for now, but it is quite amusing to be told to learn how to play better by someone using a Decurion or scatter bikes/wraithknight army that requires no exceptional thought to make effective other than just putting it on the table because its power is so skewed over others.

Kind of confused while all you other folks who are long timers here and have had many useful things to say through the years are bothering trying to talk sense into these two here? They clearly have zero perspective, and more than that have zero interest in listening. So put them on ignore and move on with the discussion in a useful direction.

I am wondering how many people have pressed the ignore button on me. I pressed it on myself by accident n dont know how to un ignore my own posts.

 Filch wrote:
I am wondering how many people have pressed the ignore button on me. I pressed it on myself by accident n dont know how to un ignore my own posts.

Holy gak, I didn't think that was possible. That's too funny. It actually works too. You just don't see your own posts. Pretty comical.

Oh, to fix it, go to your profile. There should be a list of people under 'Ignored Users'. Hit remove next to your name.

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 and RULE #2 - ALPHARIUS]

Ha! Nothing like the "bitchers and whiners" label to be the battle-cry for those who really do not want a meaningful discussion.

I could throw all kinds of things out there to show my ironclad credentials on commenting on the 40k game but it really is meaningless in the scheme of things.

Due to differing power-levels I can easily "pay to win", it really takes little talent to maximize some of the "top tier" armies.

The whining is where those who took the time to do a proper job painting their armies, taking the time to do a good job get robbed when the next codex nerfs their army.
I have Chaos Space Marines for each chaos god, they were pretty good in their day, pretty much last now.
I have Imperial Guard, they were pretty good in their day, pretty much a support group and little else.
But I have Black Templar, Grey Knights, Inquisition, Imperial Knights... I have to think a little harder to put up a good fight and win but I always enjoyed a challenge.

It is really hard to get a close game in 40k lately, the nail biters are few and far between if I was to "whine".
Those who like to judge I feel have confused 40k for a "competitive" game... oh, please.
Just take the most advantageous rules in the game and push it to the max and ensure others do the same and you might see a little fun for a bit.
If you just like to cave face with the newbies or those who like their fluffy armies really should go play with "like minded" individuals.

Others play 40k for what it is: an RPG sandbox for your favorite armies to clash, even better some crafted scenarios based on "famous' battles from codex or black library stories.
The game has an insane depth of lore, models and materials in general, the problem is that the rules are creaky and are patches on top of patches.
40k may very well be up for an AOS reboot, I am almost desperate enough to welcome it.

I used to love 40K. I still want too but my army ( IG ) just lack the firepower and manoeuvrability to be able to compete at all with my opponents.

I still love TT games and I enjoy Mordheim, Bolt Action and other such games when I can. But 40K? Its currently in a terrible state.

 master of ordinance wrote:
I used to love 40K. I still want too but my army ( IG ) just lack the firepower and manoeuvrability to be able to compete at all with my opponents.

I still love TT games and I enjoy Mordheim, Bolt Action and other such games when I can. But 40K? Its currently in a terrible state.

Worry not, comrade. They managed to make Dark Angels good from the pit they were in not too long ago. Our cardboard armored walking flash lights will have their 15 minutes in the spotlight again.

I think 40k works if you just don't play in the 41st millennium. I would highly recommend Horus heresy to someone who dislikes the codex creep and horrid balance of 40k but still loved the setting. Forge World has done a good job of diversifying the game from beyond Space Marines v Space Marines without breaking the game.

I played 40k since RT and it had been a huge part of my life. That said, 7th edition was so bad that it finally made me quit completely.
I didn't like the overall direction, the gross imbalance, and the pay to win.
It wasn't the price. This is my cheap hobby compared to my other one. It was the rules and direction of the game.
I've gone on to several other games and have rediscovered why I love TT gaming again.

 Talizvar wrote:
Others play 40k for what it is: an RPG sandbox for your favorite armies to clash, even better some crafted scenarios based on "famous' battles from codex or black library stories.

Just how is 40k a "Roleplaing Game"?

Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch, Black Crusade and Only War are all very good RPGs but they are VERY different from 40k.

I can see how adding those RP elements would make 40k better in a casual environment but the rules have not encouraged that since 2nd ed. As someone who entered the game at the launch of 5th I have only ever seen the game as a wargame, ie played between two people with clear victory conditions. In it's current state it is still very clearly not a co op experience with a referee and you are not taking on the role of the commander of your force and giving orders as you are just pushing models around. Having said that rules for giving a unit orders then having them get through, be misinterpreted, or the like could be cool. And I can't be the only one who's been waiting far too long to have an XP system in place for your HQs.

 MWHistorian wrote:
I played 40k since RT and it had been a huge part of my life. That said, 7th edition was so bad that it finally made me quit completely.
I didn't like the overall direction, the gross imbalance, and the pay to win.
It wasn't the price. This is my cheap hobby compared to my other one. It was the rules and direction of the game.
I've gone on to several other games and have rediscovered why I love TT gaming again.

Out of curiosity, what army did you play before you gave up the ghost?

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
I played 40k since RT and it had been a huge part of my life. That said, 7th edition was so bad that it finally made me quit completely.
I didn't like the overall direction, the gross imbalance, and the pay to win.
It wasn't the price. This is my cheap hobby compared to my other one. It was the rules and direction of the game.
I've gone on to several other games and have rediscovered why I love TT gaming again.

Out of curiosity, what army did you play before you gave up the ghost?

SOB and Vanilla Marines. (Imperial Fists)

Not pictured is my techmarine with Conversion Beamer. And technically, the guys on the right are "Marines Malevolent" "allies."


Below are the Repentia and Penitent Engines. On right is Inquisitor, henchmen and hand made weapon servitors.