CptJake wrote: I like getting the Warlord newsletters, there is ofter some decent stuff in them. Heck, that is how I found out about the PDF rules.
actually I agree. Warlord's Wednesday hobby newsletters are an awesome mid-week early-morning read and their Friday releases newsletters almost always make me want to order something. Probably the best newsletters from any company I've ever gotten (plus the £50 monthly prize draw for newsletter subscribers is a nice bonus!)
They are nice!
Of course, you also 'work' for them too, don't you?
While I can see how it might be a bit annoying to have to sign up for 'free' PDFs, I think it is also a small 'price' to pay to help companies recoup some of the costs that go into games development.
Also, you have to sign up for the newsletter - they probably aren't sending you one if you don't.
Plus, there's always that 'SPAM' button/filter on your e-mail account.
Alpharius wrote: Of course, you also 'work' for them too, don't you?
In that I demo Bolt Action for my FLGS yeah haha. But I wanted to have BA players so I started demo'ing and became an official "sarge", a glamorously unpaid position. but one of the reasons is because I am a bit of a fan of their product (though shhh I prefer Perry historicals over Warlord's)
Alpharius wrote: Of course, you also 'work' for them too, don't you?
In that I demo Bolt Action for my FLGS yeah haha. But I wanted to have BA players so I started demo'ing and became an official "sarge", a glamorously unpaid position. but one of the reasons is because I am a bit of a fan of their product (though shhh I prefer Perry historicals over Warlord's)
I know all about those 'glamorously unpaid positions'!
Anyway, I'm REALLY glad they put out these rules for free!
Hmmm...I have to admit, I'm a bit disappointed at the use of special dice and cards. For these little skirmish games, I prefer some standard dice and simple yet decent rules. Like Frostgrave or This is Not a Test.
There's probably some interesting stuff added with the skills and weapon traits. Seems okay, I guess. But I am disappointed that there doesn't seem to be any kind of campaign or warband advancement rules. It also seems like you couldn't really play it one player. I don't see how it could possibly result in an interesting game, given how simple the zombie AI is.
I also find it odd that they bother to include the 1 in 6 chance of being stunned by a hit. I suppose its fun to knock someone down and let a zombie eat them, but seems like it will be pretty rare that something like that will happen.
Also, why do they think it is so much harder to reload an automatic weapon?
I know what you mean. To be honest I'd be tempted to house rule that; Put ammo tokens down next to a model as usual and in the end phase, roll a die for each token you have. If you get at least one 'slain' result (or which ever result appears on a die only once) then you are out of ammo for the rest of the game. With an 'extra ammo' upgrade (or possibly the expenditure of grit token if the game is trying to keep things simple) you could use it up to ignore up to two 'slain' results for that models "ammo check" that round.
That way it's more about running out of rounds on your person rather than emptying thr magazine and fumbling around for three rounds trying to put a fresh one in.
I've not read it but maybe it's more about gameplay than realism? Perhaps it's intended as a nerf to prevent those weapons from being overpowering?
About the special dice and cards.. That's an auto-skip for me. Personal pet peeve. Not saying I don't play games with cards in them (most seem to here lately) but the combination and if I'm guessing right the cards are for activation.. which.. blech..
From their gameplay video, I have to say, it seems....underwhelming. Not a lot of carry over of survivors between games, weapons sort of all feel the same, only a few zombies at game start, and overall a lack of skirmish-polish I'd expect for a 10-models-or-less-a-side game.
I almost want to convert the rules for This Is Not A Test to cover modern day zombie encounters (think there was a scenario published for wasteland zombies/ghouls).
Maybe we need to see a scenario book and gang-creation rulebooks before making too many assumptions.
Disappointing if the rules don't have much depth to them (it's becoming a trend, isn't it?)
Have heard some very good things about 'This is not a test', which apparently also has some zombie-type scenarios - so hopefully mix and match rules and minis there.
Pacific wrote: Have heard some very good things about 'This is not a test', which apparently also has some zombie-type scenarios - so hopefully mix and match rules and minis there.
Rad Zombies are the focus of one scenario, and can randomly spawn in other scenarios. It wouldn't be hard to make TNT work for "modern" Zombie Apocalypse gaming.
That rulebook is not really convincing me to preorder this thing. It doesn't help that without seeing the cards or scenarios, we can't really judge how the game actually works.
Pacific wrote: Have heard some very good things about 'This is not a test', which apparently also has some zombie-type scenarios - so hopefully mix and match rules and minis there.
Rad Zombies are the focus of one scenario, and can randomly spawn in other scenarios. It wouldn't be hard to make TNT work for "modern" Zombie Apocalypse gaming.
Yep looking through those rules I think any Zombie gaming I do will be with the Skirmish Outbreak rules. Still I might pick up the starter box at some point if represents a saving on the minis.
Really looking forward to getting my hands on the special forces/moderns kit especially, and then using whichever rules turn out to have the best campaign system.
Also Across the Dead Earth - the first part of the second book "From Sea to Poisoned Sea" was recently made available in PDF format and importantly, that's the part that contains the rules for AI controlled zombies.. aka the Sollus.
I can throw some support in for All Things Zombie. The wife and I began playing it, and despite the rule-book being in urgent need of a professional editor (for both clarity, and correctness), wading through it has been worthwhile.
Very fun, and heavily leaning on RPG elements. I'm having a great time with it.
The core rules are mostly geared towards an 80's style US zombie movie, whereas the first expansion is a more UK affair with tongue in cheek references to shows of back in the day. The third expansion is all about military casts and whatnot.
Release dates are mixed (18th April onwards), prices are £27 for the starter set with the female/male survivors, spec ops and zombie horde at £13.50 and bike gang at £22.50
lord_blackfang wrote: I think Warlord is digging 2Deep2Greedily here. £25 for 3 bikes and 4 mooks is not happening.
Honest question. How many bikes do you think you need for a zombie skirmish game? They're not making and pricing this with the off chance someone wants to plop 30 of them on the table. I'm not even sure that it's possible to scale their game that high.
I see $32 for 2 bikes and 3 or 4 gangers (I think one can be built as a passenger or additional foot person).
If you price the foot people at $3 each that leaves the 2 bikes at $10 each. Granted, I don't think those are amazing prices but I think they are pretty average prices.
In contrast, at Chaosorc.com
A box of GW ork bikers is ~$33
A single GW scout biker is ~$13
Or, Curious Constructs lists IG bikers at £8.00 for a single or £22 for 3.
There's loads of other bikes out there but they tend to be either overpriced OR the sculpts aren't that great OR need work to fit with what you might want to do with them.
Dropping $32 for a gang of bikers doesn't really seem like a stretch to me. Do I wish it was cheaper? Sure but I don't think it's the highway robbery it's being painted as.
Bolognesus wrote: At that price point they're pretty much competing with Infinity Haqq Kum Bikers as well. That's not a comparison they'll come out of all too well.
If you compare retail to retail. The kum bikers are 35.95 euros for two minis on bikes that look nice and have no options.http://store.infinitythegame.com/articulo.php?f=1&s=6&o=3&id=2305
I'm probably missing something but that's not close in price.
MLaw wrote: I see $32 for 2 bikes and 3 or 4 gangers (I think one can be built as a passenger or additional foot person).
If you price the foot people at $3 each that leaves the 2 bikes at $10 each. Granted, I don't think those are amazing prices but I think they are pretty average prices.
In contrast, at Chaosorc.com
A box of GW ork bikers is ~$33
A single GW scout biker is ~$13
Or, Curious Constructs lists IG bikers at £8.00 for a single or £22 for 3.
There's loads of other bikes out there but they tend to be either overpriced OR the sculpts aren't that great OR need work to fit with what you might want to do with them.
Dropping $32 for a gang of bikers doesn't really seem like a stretch to me. Do I wish it was cheaper? Sure but I don't think it's the highway robbery it's being painted as.
$3 per mini would make sense if the kits were $30 for ten minis...a price that would lose Warlord the goodwill of anyone familiar with WGF's prices. Not an attractive price at all.
If GW sells three bikes for $33 and WLG sells 2 bikes (plus $4 worth of pedestrians in a kit no one is buying for the pedestrians) for $32, then something is very wrong. GW should not be the budget-conscious alternative.
MLaw wrote: I see $32 for 2 bikes and 3 or 4 gangers (I think one can be built as a passenger or additional foot person).
If you price the foot people at $3 each that leaves the 2 bikes at $10 each. Granted, I don't think those are amazing prices but I think they are pretty average prices.
In contrast, at Chaosorc.com
A box of GW ork bikers is ~$33
A single GW scout biker is ~$13
Or, Curious Constructs lists IG bikers at £8.00 for a single or £22 for 3.
There's loads of other bikes out there but they tend to be either overpriced OR the sculpts aren't that great OR need work to fit with what you might want to do with them.
Dropping $32 for a gang of bikers doesn't really seem like a stretch to me. Do I wish it was cheaper? Sure but I don't think it's the highway robbery it's being painted as.
$3 per mini would make sense if the kits were $30 for ten minis...a price that would lose Warlord the goodwill of anyone familiar with WGF's prices. Not an attractive price at all.
If GW sells three bikes for $33 and WLG sells 2 bikes (plus $4 worth of pedestrians in a kit no one is buying for the pedestrians) for $32, then something is very wrong. GW should not be the budget-conscious alternative.
Well.. if you take into consideration.. the starter set which I am seeing on TheWarstore for $40ish.. which lists as 23 zombies.. 10 male survivors, and the 6 gangers.. for $8 more you get a crapload more stuff.. so maybe that's closer to the types of prices you were looking for?
It's better, but still not the same value as 30 minis for $20-something. Also, it really only works for people who want all those things. Since I have no taste for zombies, it isn't much of a deal for me. Still, if they start releasing more boxes with that amount of value, it will be a nice step forward.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: It's better, but still not the same value as 30 minis for $20-something. Also, it really only works for people who want all those things. Since I have no taste for zombies, it isn't much of a deal for me. Still, if they start releasing more boxes with that amount of value, it will be a nice step forward.
I think the idea there is to promote people .. (call me crazy).. buying the actual game they're for? lol shocker right?
I think if you watch the bits sellers on ebay you'll find the bikes by themselves for pretty cheap. If I were to guess.. probably the first week or two they'll start in the $10 range each maybe.. and spiral down to about $5 or $6 each (would be my wild guess plucked directly from my hairy bum). I'm planning on maybe a starter box and a few bits order bikes if I really like them
Sorry, i was just going by what other people had written. Of course it contains the biker leader sprue, adding an extra bike. I guess people are assuming the biker box set has the same amount of bikers as the boxed game, which as you point out, is incorrect.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: It's better, but still not the same value as 30 minis for $20-something. Also, it really only works for people who want all those things. Since I have no taste for zombies, it isn't much of a deal for me. Still, if they start releasing more boxes with that amount of value, it will be a nice step forward.
I think the idea there is to promote people .. (call me crazy).. buying the actual game they're for? lol shocker right?
What if I don't give a gak about the game? Which, I am sure, puts me in the majority of the potential customer base. The price is already harsh in a vacuum, but the kits aren't being released in a vacuum - they're repackaged WGF kits now sold at, what, 4 times the old price? That's a bitter pill to swallow for anyone who's been in the hobby longer than since yesterday. Price memory is a thing. Saying it's not too bad compared to Games freakin' Workshop is a pretty bad consolation prize when we know that, without this stellar "Warlord distribution deal" we would have boxes of 6+ bikers for the same price or less.
Warlord's sales model relies solely on players of their own game, who really won't need more than one sprue of each thing. Everybody else is priced out. I think that's a risky, narrow(minded) road to take. Especially given the rather laughable quality of the actual game rules.
Marleymoo wrote: Sorry, i was just going by what other people had written. Of course it contains the biker leader sprue, adding an extra bike. I guess people are assuming the biker box set has the same amount of bikers as the boxed game, which as you point out, is incorrect.
Sorry, that wasn't meant to be aimed at you, more just clarifying the assumption. Bad choice of quotes on my part!
BobtheInquisitor wrote: It's better, but still not the same value as 30 minis for $20-something. Also, it really only works for people who want all those things. Since I have no taste for zombies, it isn't much of a deal for me. Still, if they start releasing more boxes with that amount of value, it will be a nice step forward.
I think the idea there is to promote people .. (call me crazy).. buying the actual game they're for? lol shocker right?
What if I don't give a gak about the game? Which, I am sure, puts me in the majority of the potential customer base. The price is already harsh in a vacuum, but the kits aren't being released in a vacuum - they're repackaged WGF kits now sold at, what, 4 times the old price? That's a bitter pill to swallow for anyone who's been in the hobby longer than since yesterday. Price memory is a thing. Saying it's not too bad compared to Games freakin' Workshop is a pretty bad consolation prize when we know that, without this stellar "Warlord distribution deal" we would have boxes of 6+ bikers for the same price or less.
Warlord's sales model relies solely on players of their own game, who really won't need more than one sprue of each thing. Everybody else is priced out. I think that's a risky, narrow(minded) road to take. Especially given the rather laughable quality of the actual game rules.
Sorry but WGF decided to remove themselves from the retail business and landed on Warlord as their distributor. Since the minis are no longer direct from manufacturer, the distributor has to make money too, that's a thing as well. I'm not defending WGF or Warlord but it's a bit silly to assume that the addition of an intermediary in the supply chain wouldn't result in price increases.
Now add to this that Warlord has created a skirmish level game around existing and new minis. One where the previous mass amounts of minis in one box don't make sense to them. Sure, you and others like myself Mau not care about the game but that doesn't detract from the fact that Warlord does and they don't care about other manufacturers' games that you might want the minis for, they want people to play their game.
The new arrangement may not be to your taste, or mine actually, but there it is. For hard plastic, they're still fairly reasonably priced, even if they're no longer dirt cheap.
Now add to this that Warlord has created a skirmish level game around existing and new minis. One where the previous mass amounts of minis in one box don't make sense to them. Sure, you and others like myself Mau not care about the game but that doesn't detract from the fact that Warlord does and they don't care about other manufacturers' games that you might want the minis for, they want people to play their game.
And that's what's so crazy about all his. So far, Warlord was selling oodles of historical minis at affordable prices to be used with whatever rules. Now with this one product line they want to go at it GW style, even though the line is completely generic, just like their historicals. I can understand going this way with GoA, but zombies? What? How will this game drive model sales when it has zero IP and the rules were phoned in? It's not even about what I want, I already have plenty of WGF figures. It's about Warlord's sales model being irrational.
overtyrant wrote: Prices all seem fine to me, but then again I never brought from WGF. What state are WGF in now anyway, are they essentially part of WLG now?
WGF left the distribution business and is only doing contract manufacturing work - WGF is a tiny tiny division of a huge multinational plastics company (medical and industrial grade plastics, etc). It is up to the customer to find their own distributor. Their customers include: Dreamforge Games, Wild West Exodus, Malifaux, Kingdom Death, Maelstrom's Edge, and Warlord Games - who coincidentally bought most of their old in-house range, and is rebranding it as Warlord.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: It's better, but still not the same value as 30 minis for $20-something. Also, it really only works for people who want all those things. Since I have no taste for zombies, it isn't much of a deal for me. Still, if they start releasing more boxes with that amount of value, it will be a nice step forward.
I think the idea there is to promote people .. (call me crazy).. buying the actual game they're for? lol shocker right?
I think if you watch the bits sellers on ebay you'll find the bikes by themselves for pretty cheap. If I were to guess.. probably the first week or two they'll start in the $10 range each maybe.. and spiral down to about $5 or $6 each (would be my wild guess plucked directly from my hairy bum). I'm planning on maybe a starter box and a few bits order bikes if I really like them
If that is how the company is playing it, then they are the ones who are crazy. Not only are the game reviews mixed, but there are a ton of free options out there, which means customers will not value the rules components anywhere near so high as Warlord seems to. Also, many a new game system has died from the assumption that new customers are just waiting to buy into a new game. So far, most success stories I've seen have had value for gamers who want to buy minis for games they already play, slowly luring them into the new game the way one might coax a kitten out from under the bed with slices of maple cured turkey. It only makes matters worse for Warlord when one can compare many of their current offerings to the exact same product as it existed a year ago and see how the prices have been hiked as if by some ceiling-ninja's garrote.
Warlord is pricing as if they believe they already have our brand loyalty. I guess that's fine for you if you are already a fan, but I don't see it helping them expand. Reminds me too much of Battlefield's DUST re-release.
Honestly to me it doesn't matter about warlords reasons. I don't care if they are pricing it and boxing it for numberw in game or pricing it to make up first fact they only want to sell one box for their game. What I really care about Is the value to me and that value is quite a bit lower since the move from wgf to warlord. If we compare these boxes to the mounted samurai you would be looking at 12 mounted models or 25/ nfantry for about £16-17 pounds. Now we are looking at less than half of the number of models for a very similar price. For me that's dissapointing and its the difference between me getting one of most of each box and me maybe getting a single box.
Guys.. if you already have the WGF stuff.. and you have no interest in their game.. you might not be their target audience. It's funny to me that a lot of people seem to expect companies to cater to their specific needs. WGF is not in the picture anymore and yeah.. it was awesome to be able to get their stuff cheap. These bikers were never released by WGF.. so saying that they are losing value is misguided. The survivors.. yeah. I get it. If you're wise and search around, you can still find those at the WGF prices from online retailers (I've seen them in a few places).
WGF was not releasing pieces for a game. All of what Warlord is doing is centered around their game. These aren't pieces they're just releasing in a vacuum. As I said previously, bits sellers will be selling the bikes by themselves. They'd be insane not to. So, if you were probably not going to buy direct anyway, then why does it matter if you're buying the bikes from a bits seller or a discount retailer like MM?
What price does everyone expect to see the bikes at? 20 for $5? 10 for $10? 5 for $20? I think a lot of people are thinking that what WGF was offering was somehow reflective of the rest of the miniature gaming world. That's just not the case. I can't think of very many companies outside of a few historical manufacturers offering plastic kits for anything close to that price at MSRP.
The starter box for this is a fantastic value. If you don't need the extra rules and stuff.. toss them, ebay them, give them to a friend, donate them to your FLGS.. $40 for what.. 42 models? All the other stuff is listed as expansions and is priced accordingly.
Still think the prices WLG are offering are pretty reasonable and I'm considering picking the whole lot up if they can improve the rules and I think it's a bargain!
MLaw wrote: Guys.. if you already have the WGF stuff.. and you have no interest in their game.. you might not be their target audience. It's funny to me that a lot of people seem to expect companies to cater to their specific needs.
Like...backpacks and hobgoblins?
I don't think it is too unusual for customers/potential customers to want specific things from companies - not at all.
Now, maybe it might be unusual if companies actually really did start catering to customers' every whim!
MLaw wrote: Guys.. if you already have the WGF stuff.. and you have no interest in their game.. you might not be their target audience. It's funny to me that a lot of people seem to expect companies to cater to their specific needs.
Like...backpacks and hobgoblins?
I don't think it is too unusual for customers/potential customers to want specific things from companies - not at all.
Now, maybe it might be unusual if companies actually really did start catering to customers' every whim!
Exactly like backpacks and hobgoblins! Actually..that's kinda closer to my point.. I think Kickstarters and close interaction with customers during those has gotten many of us (myself included) into the habit of assuming suggestions will filter in. Warlord though, IMO is closer to GW and Mantic where they're really a bit too big to be taking our feedback directly. Guys like Tre or Maxmini or Puppetswar take our input all the time.. so it's a bit of a different ballpark but the influence from that definitely has created expectations I think.
MLaw wrote: Guys.. if you already have the WGF stuff.. and you have no interest in their game.. you might not be their target audience. It's funny to me that a lot of people seem to expect companies to cater to their specific needs.
What's funny to me is that you don't seem to understand that I'm making objective observations that have nothing to do with what I personally want or need from Warlord Games. I am questioning their decision to market these kits solely to players interested in Warlord's own game because I doubt the size of that particular market is even worth the manhours it took to put the rulebook together and because it is at odds with Warlord's usual sales model.
More and more retailers (at least at the B&M level) won't stock anything that isn't tied into an actual game or named range
offering random zombie, survivor, biker and mixed modern special forces kits would mean warlord couldn't access stores running like that
but bolt them together with a tiny rule book, and a starter set (I'm sure the minis will be available separately too) and the very same stores will at least consider stocking some or all of it
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: More and more retailers (at least at the B&M level) won't stock anything that isn't tied into an actual game or named range
offering random zombie, survivor, biker and mixed modern special forces kits would mean warlord couldn't access stores running like that
but bolt them together with a tiny rule book, and a starter set (I'm sure the minis will be available separately too) and the very same stores will at least consider stocking some or all of it
The problem is that Warlord made the game, then used the game as a justification to triple the prices. That's more than just trying to get their product into stores.
I also believe that warlord are vastly overestimating the draw of their game.
At least some of that price rise was bound to happen considering they have to recoup the investment of buying all that stuff from WGF. Unless you think WGF just handed the keys over and said, "here ya go!"
agnosto wrote: At least some of that price rise was bound to happen considering they have to recoup the investment of buying all that stuff from WGF. Unless you think WGF just handed the keys over and said, "here ya go!"
Some, sure.
As someone who loved the variety and pricing of WGF's kits, this pretty much destroys a lot of the utility of the range for me. My customer loyalty could have transferred to Warlord just fine if they had presented the change differently and made soothing noises about the drop in availability and surge in prices. I would have absorbed reasonable price increases if the value was close enough and there were some intangible bones thrown my way. I would have still kvetched--a customer, it is always in my interest to push for lower prices on the off chance that it will have some effect, squeaky wheels getting the grease and all--but it would just have been a formality rather than a Mantic'ing of the brand name.
agnosto wrote: At least some of that price rise was bound to happen considering they have to recoup the investment of buying all that stuff from WGF. Unless you think WGF just handed the keys over and said, "here ya go!"
Some, sure.
As someone who loved the variety and pricing of WGF's kits, this pretty much destroys a lot of the utility of the range for me. My customer loyalty could have transferred to Warlord just fine if they had presented the change differently and made soothing noises about the drop in availability and surge in prices. I would have absorbed reasonable price increases if the value was close enough and there were some intangible bones thrown my way. I would have still kvetched--a customer, it is always in my interest to push for lower prices on the off chance that it will have some effect, squeaky wheels getting the grease and all--but it would just have been a formality rather than a Mantic'ing of the brand name.
You're right, they won't know they're losing customers unless people tell them. For me, the prices are pretty reasonable for what you're getting; not insane value like the old WGF kits but fairly bog-standard for the industry considering it's HIPS and all the bits/customization options on the kits. That said, I can certainly see someone being a bit put out over the splitting of the kits and a more expensive price tag.
I don't have a use for any of this anyway; their lackluster "rules" killed the deal on my end. I was looking for something more I guess.
I was just in a local FLGS. They had the old Colonial Militia 30 guys for 24. They had the new Colonial Milita 30 guys for 29. Ditto the British Line Infantry. That's a 5 dollar increase, not bad.
Now, the WGF Orcs were what, 24 for 24 dollars? Now if you wanted 24 you're paying 40.
I was just in a local FLGS. They had the old Colonial Militia 30 guys for 24. They had the new Colonial Milita 30 guys for 29. Ditto the British Line Infantry. That's a 5 dollar increase, not bad.
Now, the WGF Orcs were what, 24 for 24 dollars? Now if you wanted 24 you're paying 40.
Stlll not 4 X the old price.
They're talking specifically about the survivor kits. The AWI stuff is actually better than WGF in my opinion because of the included painting guide (saves a ridiculous amount of research to find out what coats and facings some random regiment from 177x wore for summer campaign) and awesome flags by flag historian Dr. Lesley Prince (this time saving money from buying flags from The Flag Dude or someone else online)
For me, I will probably pick up the modern military guys but will wind up waiting til Warlord does one of their 50% Off All Plastic Sprues sales they do once every 6 to 9 months (I may be a Warlord fan but I also like deals!)
Currently looking up posts about Akula's 2-page zombie rules. Akula's rules use a card-activation mechanic (for unpredictability!), 300+ zombies, and 6-12 survivors. Enjoy.
ced1106 wrote: Currently looking up posts about Akula's 2-page zombie rules. Akula's rules use a card-activation mechanic (for unpredictability!), 300+ zombies, and 6-12 survivors. Enjoy.
Thanks for the links, though it appears his rules are 404'ing. Anyone have a link that works?
If Warlord were smart, they would have gone for easy-to-learn/teach rules that allow teams of survivors to cooperatively go head to head against the zombie hordes, or alternately play competitively if they so choose. I think the focus on eliminating the opposing gang first and foremost, with some minor zombie threats at the beginning of the game, sort of leaves a lackluster feeling of hopelessness and more Necromunda/TNT lite.
No one is expecting companies to cater to their every need but they do expect to spend more money with those who do. I and many others have explained reasons why they have lost interest in this offering from warlord. If you are all for it and want it that's great I am glad you feel its worth your time and money but your reasons for wanting this game are not more or less valuable than those who don't. If the value isn't there for someone no amount of comments about the cost of distribution or about target audience is going to matter to them. If the value was there for a person then they might purchase dispite apparently not being the target audience. However I am pretty sure warlord would want more of their stuff sold rather than less nomatter who is picking up the models.
If this is the best business choice for warlord then good for them I hope it goes well but that doesn't make peoples reasons for deciding against picking this up any less legit. We can like and value different things.
Comments about "they want you to play their game so they increased the price" make me laugh. It is so backwards. You don't get more people to play your game by decreasing demand for it (price up => demand down). No doubt that good rules sell miniatures, one of the great things is that with cool/useful enough miniatures, they don't even have to be your own rules. Why not let your own rules, and other companies/individuals rules sell your miniatures?
Instead, Warlord is taking the "bet the farm on our simple zombie game rules" approach.
Cue somebody trying to argue that increasing prices will create more demand for the game in 3,2,1...
I was just in a local FLGS. They had the old Colonial Militia 30 guys for 24. They had the new Colonial Milita 30 guys for 29. Ditto the British Line Infantry. That's a 5 dollar increase, not bad.
Now, the WGF Orcs were what, 24 for 24 dollars? Now if you wanted 24 you're paying 40.
Stlll not 4 X the old price.
30 WGF figures £18, 10 of the same from Warlord £15.00, so 2.5x the price to be exact. And that's with going from being an "import" to being "local". It's probably gonna be even worse for those in the US, where the reverse is happening.
I only want a few of the boxes, the survivors and biker gang kits, to use as conversion parts for Fallout after seeing Wyrmallas fantastic conversions, so I'm waiting til! Warlord sells the kits individually.
And if they don't, if they only offer this bundle deal? Then they're cheating themselves out of a sale.
The problem with the starter is that it's only a deal for those who want that specific mix of miniatures and/or have the time and interest to sell the chaff. Still, it is worth considering, and I may eventually get one if I find someone who wants the zombies or come up with some sort of non-zombie project for them, like Terminators. I'd prefer the kit had female survivors rather than male because I have a surplus of male miniatures as it is.
What I don't get is why Warlord is pricing the historical kits so reasonably and the survivor, modern and zombie kits so badly. For GoA, the 'sci fi tax' makes sense, but for generic modern miniatures and zombies? That's like charging people a decent price for chocolate and then hiking the price of vanilla up to the same band as Komodo Dragon Crunch and Rhino Horn Cookie Dough.
Marleymoo wrote: Can I just point out again about these box sets:-
"Also includes game cards unique to this expansion set."
These cards also have a monetary value. Comparing the price of these re-released boxes and not taking this into consideration is a bit unfair.
Although, a few cards shouldn't increase the price that much I suppose.
It is completely fair. Those cards do not have value for anyone who is not already a loyal customer interested in using the minis for Warlord's game. They do nothing at all to lure in new customers while the price increase does quite a bit to push them away. If the game had glowing reviews and a critical mass of players, then the cards might make a difference for someone trying to decide between buying a Warlord kit and some competitor's kit, but since the reviews have not been favorable those cards will not be pulling their weight.
Also, if you are looking forward to this game, would you say the cards are as valuable to you as 20 more miniatures?
Marleymoo wrote: Can I just point out again about these box sets:-
"Also includes game cards unique to this expansion set."
These cards also have a monetary value. Comparing the price of these re-released boxes and not taking this into consideration is a bit unfair.
Although, a few cards shouldn't increase the price that much I suppose.
It is completely fair. Those cards do not have value for anyone who is not already a loyal customer interested in using the minis for Warlord's game. They do nothing at all to lure in new customers while the price increase does quite a bit to push them away. If the game had glowing reviews and a critical mass of players, then the cards might make a difference for someone trying to decide between buying a Warlord kit and some competitor's kit, but since the reviews have not been favorable those cards will not be pulling their weight.
Also, if you are looking forward to this game, would you say the cards are as valuable to you as 20 more miniatures?
I got a chance to look through the free rulebook. What is the Survivors' Guide for Dummies? It sounds like everything you need to actually play the game is located in it.
Lucky for you, then, that Warlord chose to fit them in the box at only the expense of 20 other minis rather than fitting them into the main rulebook or selling the cards in packs. Certainly, it would have been impossible for Warlord to put the rules online for free and risk people trying out their game with other miniatures, possibly even deciding they like it. Sure, those cards will be more of a hindrance to expanding the player base than a help since it devalues the miniatures so very much for anyone not already invested in playing the game, but it shouldn't bother you that you will find fewer people to play against and have a much harder time converting new players when they have so many free or much more popular zombie game alternatives already on the market, right?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Barzam wrote: I got a chance to look through the free rulebook. What is the Survivors' Guide for Dummies? It sounds like everything you need to actually play the game is located in it.
Perhaps there's a thread about gnolls in need of some salt.
While I'm not a fan of the card based activation system, I'm definitely going to pick up the base game and give it a shot. Worse case scenario, it's a meh experience (and I can promise it's not going to have been the worst game I've ever played) and I get a good deal on models I can use. Best case scenario, it's awesome and really fun and I get some cool models cheap. Am I going to buy the expansions? Eh.. maybe the soldiers.
I'm really kicking myself now though for not backing the Battle Systems KS :/
Lucky for you, then, that Warlord chose to fit them in the box at only the expense of 20 other minis rather than fitting them into the main rulebook or selling the cards in packs. Certainly, it would have been impossible for Warlord to put the rules online for free and risk people trying out their game with other miniatures, possibly even deciding they like it. Sure, those cards will be more of a hindrance to expanding the player base than a help since it devalues the miniatures so very much for anyone not already invested in playing the game, but it shouldn't bother you that you will find fewer people to play against and have a much harder time converting new players when they have so many free or much more popular zombie game alternatives already on the market, right?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Barzam wrote: I got a chance to look through the free rulebook. What is the Survivors' Guide for Dummies? It sounds like everything you need to actually play the game is located in it.
Anyway, maybe the concern is another Rakham. With Confrontation and AT-43, Rackham went from a miniatures hobby company to an ex-parrot game line.
With Project Z, Wargames Factory's zombie miniatures turns from a "cheap but good" line of miniatures, to "yet another zombie" game. They're pretty much abandoning a niche they owned to compete in a saturated market, assuming you're one of those gamers who will play a miniatures ruleset without needing to buy its line of miniatures.
At least the good thing about Project Z is that I've found some other new zombie rulesets I'd like to try out!
Anyway, maybe the concern is another Rakham. With Confrontation and AT-43, Rackham went from a miniatures hobby company to an ex-parrot game line.
With Project Z, Wargames Factory's zombie miniatures turns from a "cheap but good" line of miniatures, to "yet another zombie" game. They're pretty much abandoning a niche they owned to compete in a saturated market, assuming you're one of those gamers who will play a miniatures ruleset without needing to buy its line of miniatures.
At least the good thing about Project Z is that I've found some other new zombie rulesets I'd like to try out!
lol. Yeah, I'm an open book. There's always the danger of a company losing out. As I said before, some increase was going to happen anyway because I'm sure WGF wasn't just handing out the rights to their minis. Some ranges would be valued higher than others, depending on competition, etc. There aren't a lot of plastic, modern zombie and survivor minis is out there in HIPS but there are a lot of other historical HIPS products so I wouldn't be surprised if WGF valued these higher which would leave Warlord with some decisions to make. Who knows, that's one take on it or we can just assume that Warlord, a company with numerous reasonably priced kits suddenly became horrendously greedy.
Either way, they won't go out of business if this line tanks since they're already not dependent upon its success for their survival.
Only as much as criticism of a toy company upset you.
On the positive side, the biker gang looks really good and I was really excited to get them. No doubt they will eventually end up in some kind of deal or eBay store that makes them worth my while, and that will be a great day. The modern soldiers look so good that I'll probably cave and get them at their current price, although I'll feel just terrible. I can at least make one SG team and some of Doc Brown's Libyan friends from a single sprue, so there's that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Now, if you'll excuse me, it sounds like some plastic gnolls need my attention.
Anyway, maybe the concern is another Rakham. With Confrontation and AT-43, Rackham went from a miniatures hobby company to an ex-parrot game line.
With Project Z, Wargames Factory's zombie miniatures turns from a "cheap but good" line of miniatures, to "yet another zombie" game. They're pretty much abandoning a niche they owned to compete in a saturated market, assuming you're one of those gamers who will play a miniatures ruleset without needing to buy its line of miniatures.
At least the good thing about Project Z is that I've found some other new zombie rulesets I'd like to try out!
Sorry man, but I was a playtester and sentinel for Rackham up through their final death throes. The dumbing down of Confrontation was merely the last in a long string of bone headed business moves that pushed them into an untimely gave. While I'm not impressed with the Project Z rules either, unless they can manage to royally piss off their historical fan base, the fate of Project Z (and probably Anteres too) isn't going to bring them down.
Anyway, maybe the concern is another Rakham. With Confrontation and AT-43, Rackham went from a miniatures hobby company to an ex-parrot game line.
With Project Z, Wargames Factory's zombie miniatures turns from a "cheap but good" line of miniatures, to "yet another zombie" game. They're pretty much abandoning a niche they owned to compete in a saturated market, assuming you're one of those gamers who will play a miniatures ruleset without needing to buy its line of miniatures.
At least the good thing about Project Z is that I've found some other new zombie rulesets I'd like to try out!
Sorry man, but I was a playtester and sentinel for Rackham up through their final death throes. The dumbing down of Confrontation was merely the last in a long string of bone headed business moves that pushed them into an untimely gave. While I'm not impressed with the Project Z rules either, unless they can manage to royally piss off their historical fan base, the fate of Project Z (and probably Anteres too) isn't going to bring them down.
If Warlord can survive those horrible Judge Dredd sculpts, the insane Antares pricing, and out of scale plastic terrain, I really don't think this one will do them in either.
All of which I think are fairly minor negatives in terms of the overall quality of product that Warlord put out, which for the most part is pretty damned good. A lot of those negatives are also subjective; 'expensive', not so much when you compare to what a lot of people I know will spend on even a small FW or AoS force, and a lot of the sculpts for Dredd are pretty characterful. As someone has collected the comic for 25 years they are good enough in my book
I wasn't too pleased about Mantic's TWD having game rules cards tied to miniature purchases, but it looks like Warlord are going down the same route anyway, so I'm kinda glad I went with TWD in the end, it looks like it'll have a better theme and structure.
Never liked card decks as an essential gameplay element.
Optional gameplay aid, sure, but packaged with minis and can't play the game without them is just annoying, have a page or 2 in the rulebook with stat tables and equipment tables as well, and then sell cards separately.
Jumped on it when I got the mail this morning. $55 shipped for 49 hard plastic figs including 2 bikes is worth it even if the game never hits the table.
MLaw wrote: If Warlord can survive those horrible Judge Dredd sculpts, the insane Antares pricing, and out of scale plastic terrain, I really don't think this one will do them in either.
you could replace "Warlord" with "Games Workshop", "Privateer Press", "Corvus Belli", "Mantic", etc, who all release horrible sculpts and insane pricing, yet are all still quite in business.
For what it's worth though, I love the Judge Dredd sculpts, but I'm a huge fan of 2000AD so they fit right in. But I'm sure someone, somewhere, also has bought Space Wolves Wolfen Murderpack because they're blind or something.
Triple9 wrote: Jumped on it when I got the mail this morning. $55 shipped for 49 hard plastic figs including 2 bikes is worth it even if the game never hits the table.
Passing on this but the deal is decent. Glad they clarified how many bikes are in the biker gang set.
I'd be more tempted if I knew the "10 bonus zombies" were going to be the new male sprue, but the pic on the website is for the vixen's of which I've already got the old WGF box of 30 it's a pass for me unless anyone can see something I missed.
After looking at the sprue options, I really like their moderns, at least in terms of the assortment. Though after being displeased with Warlord's plastic Romans, I am hesitant to buy too many more of their models. I guess I'll have to see some good comparisons after they come out.
Yeah, despite it being called "Spec Ops" they will ideally make regular American troops based on the uniforms and the armor, but you'd get passable Brits out of it, and a reasonable facsimile of Russian troops. And certainly be able to get "Survivalists" out of it.
My only gripe was the apparent lack of a SAW, which would be necessary for somebody wanting to make National Guard troops which would be the most appropriate for a zombie style scenario.. Also, no M203s (instead using the newer H&K-made M320).
I love spending enough to qualify for free shipping (£50 at WLG) but I only want the zombie game & to try their strong shade ink. Don't want anything else & they're only pre-selling the game. Would have probably gone for a set of bikers & female survivors. :(
Oh well.
Looks like all the survivor sets are now $20 for 10
Biker Gang $32
That price jump over WGF is insane. This is exactly what I was afraid of when the Warlord takeover announcement hit. So glad I went ahead and bought the 30-figure boxes.
Warlord Games didn't "take over" Wargames Factory. They are the exclusive distributor for them. If I was to make an intelligent guess any of the price rises are because Wargames Factory weren't making a good enough return on their investment. Remember they were run by an incompetent team for much of their history.
RobertsMinis wrote: Warlord Games didn't "take over" Wargames Factory. They are the exclusive distributor for them. If I was to make an intelligent guess any of the price rises are because Wargames Factory weren't making a good enough return on their investment. Remember they were run by an incompetent team for much of their history.
Wargames Factory was an American company run by the highly incompetent (and also rather underhanded and villainous) Tony Reidy, contracting to a Chinese plastics manufacturing company. After running up huge debts with the Chinese company, the Chinese company took over. They retained the Wargames Factory branding, but hired new sculptors and began producing better product than ever before, and taking on contracts for other companies. This was a renaissance of sorts for WGF, as they stopped making the smaller sized sprues with softly rendered models, and began doing high quality multi-model full sprues such as the War of Spanish Succession artillery kit, female zombies, survivors, American War of Independence infantry kits, and so on. With the new ownership and new quality levels came new contract offers. So Wargames Factory had their own branding, along with producing the plastics for Dreamforge, Malifaux, Kingdom Death, Wild West Exodus, etc. Wargames Factory decided to get out out of the distributing business, and put up all the WGF branded molds for sale. Warlord Games bought the majority of them (but did not for others like WGF's 15mm and 28mm WW2 stuff). Warlord "owns" the designs and the tools, but they still reside at WGF in China. This is the Warlord-WGF Partnership. However, the cost, of course, for these tools (and the retooling done) is pretty high, and now instead of WGF being the distributor for their own models (and you getting 30 models for $25 MSRP), they are manufacturing them for Warlord who is now paying for the debt of those molds as well as manufacturing and shipping to the UK for distribution. So, yup, in many instances the retooled items are going to cost a lot more ($20 for a sprue of ten models and a sprue of weapons) - in other cases, such as the American War of Independence models, there was little to no price change as there was little to no retooling (previously three sprues of 30 models total for $25, now three sprues of 30 models total + painting guide and flags for $29).
So people got their preorders now. One question is they released the rules to play but not really. You have no stats or weapon profiles. Is that anle to be posted?
I would be more interested in hearing about the campaign system, and how it stacks up against some of the other recent skirmish-level games that have popped up.
Hatemonger wrote: I would be more interested in hearing about the campaign system, and how it stacks up against some of the other recent skirmish-level games that have popped up.
- H8
So, my copy arrived today.
There IS no campaign system.
Minis are nice enough but otherwise the contents of the box is underwhelming. It seems like the rules for the Spec Ops (or more accurately the stat cards since they appear to just be survivors with different stats) are only included in the Spec Ops box. Guess that will have to be next on my list.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also there seems to be a misprint. One of the 10 "Survival Z" cards has the card text on the 'back' for Ricochet, but on the 'front' it does not have the "Survival Z" face. Instead it seems to have the skills for some Zombies that guard Dr Puke..
..which in turn would appear to be the 'back' of a Zombie Team Character chard that doesn't exist (there aren't any in the box). Dr Puke is also not mentioned anywhere else. I suspect this is something that will come along in the "Zombie Menace" expansion mentioned in the Survivors Guide..
Hrmmm... I was hoping they'd be available from their online store by now. I need them as proxy's for Infinity Ariadna miniatures. They're good, but will be better with some proper head swaps and the like.
I have had mine for a couple of weeks and we are generally the last place to get anything.
Must say I have been pretty disappointed with the quality of it so far, misprinted cards are annoying, Spec Ops. are surprisingly limited as weapons need to match bodies or need a lot of remedial work (and with out a parts breakdown I find it hard to identify what everything is).
Casting is very good though and the game itself is quick and pretty fun to play but with no campaign their is limited replay ability.
What really bothers me though is where is this game supposed to go? I cant for the life of me figure out how they are gonna expand this (campaign aside), what could you Warlord possibly release next? A Humvee and ?
This was the first Warlord thread that I found so I thought this is where I would share it.
Right now Warlord's US Store (online) is running a promo with free shipping an 10% off. Use the coupon code
10-PERCENT-USA
at checkout and get 10% off Warlord products and free shipping.
The message clearly states that anything produced by companies other than Warlord are not included but this is still a pretty sweet deal.
MLaw wrote: The message clearly states that anything produced by companies other than Warlord are not included but this is still a pretty sweet deal.
So would the WGF kits that were rebranded - the the point of changing the molds so the model bases say Warlord on the bottom - count as made by Warlord or not?
Does this apply to the kits Warlord acquired from wargames factory? Does warlord actually own those wgf kits or are they only distributing them on wgfs behalf? I still need the zombie survivors and woodland Indians kits for This Is Not a Test.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Does this apply to the kits Warlord acquired from wargames factory? Does warlord actually own those wgf kits or are they only distributing them on wgfs behalf? I still need the zombie survivors and woodland Indians kits for This Is Not a Test.
Yes, it does. If in doubt, you can click the filter on the left titled "Warlord Games Products" to see what qualifies for the sale.
I'm sure a lot depends on how well it sells. £30 is certainly a steal for the starter, but I'm not sure how much people want to buy after zombiecide et al.
There is a good write-up about the game and rules in Wargames Illustrated for anyone who wants a closer look. It certainly looks fun, and I'd agree there is tremendous room for expansion if Warlord run with it.
I bought box during Salute, I think that 30pounds for that box is a good price, nice miniatures, tokens have a good quality...
Also take all the other boxes and the specialtroops are great!!
Compared to ks products, Im really happy.
Sometimes I think people don't know prices to produce miniatures.
60% margin for distributor, 10% production cost, taxes.. So you win practically nothing.
You will see now lot of companies appearing but very few continue to make more than 3 or 4 miniatures, because people get used to KS prices (without distribution and some also without paying taxes) and traditional companies have to survive....
It's more about the discrepancies between the prices of Warlord's Historical figures (which I have a LOT of) and the prices of the Project Z/Moderns - which is a significant amount higher per figure/sprue.
I bought the Project Z Spec Ops guys and I am very happy with the miniatures. The sheer amount of spare guns you get is especially excellent, as it will allow me to re-arm my Ariadna miniatures in more modern looking weapons for my Ariadna STALKER force.
The only complaint I have is that the mid-section of the miniature is missing a bit of height, but luckily for me both the torso and legs are separate, so it's not too had to add that in using some plasticard/greenstuff. Also, the heads are little more heroic scaled that say the earlier scale of Ariadna miniatures (before the latest size change), but hey, you can order heads from Hasslefree which can easily solve that problem
Overall I am very happy. Mine are going to be used to make stand in USAriadna Marauders (with a few added armour pads here and there) at a scale that matches my older style miniatures, as I want uniformity across the range that I own.
A good purchase. Especially with the plethora of weapon options available on the sprue, and definitely if you also include how many more extras you also receive. I hope they keep this up, as I would like to see more like this from them in the future.
Which is basically the game redone and set in a super market (including the terrain), still no campaign rules, no new gangs but includes rules for interior of buildings which should have been in the game already.
Also releasing a model for Dr. Puke, some sort of enhanced mutant zombie thing and possibly the zombie dogs for general release. I would include pictures but am too much of a luddite to know how to!
Looks like its not yet available as a standalone kit, only bundles. That's a pain in the are because I just bought the two original survivor kits and dont need more.
Nostromodamus wrote: Wife pre-ordered it while I was at work Gotta love the gamer ladies! Indifferent on the game itself, it will probably mostly be used for TiNaT.
She bought me a pack of Frostgrave Cultists too as I'd mentioned I was looking for minis to use as Children of Atom...
Pig Iron Productions have some miniatures that are perfect for Children of Atom - the Kolony Ferals. I'm probably going to use them as a Ghoul themed Mutant warband.
The Project Z supermarket has been released as a stand alone kit, made of 'wood' (presumably MDF) and costing 45GBP. Also released are the zombie beast and Dr. Puke but still no sign of the zombie dogs.
I just ordered the base game for my oldest son for Christmas. That deal is really sick though. Sally Fourth (I believe) just released a deal for barricades with a starter and they have a shopping mall deal too (IIRC). If someone doesn't beat me to it I'll post up pictures and links. EDIT: My bad, that's a bundle for The Walking Dead.. but the terrain for that obviously has relevance to this..
Seeing the post about Children of Atom and other stuff, I am thinking there's more to this game than just survivors and zombies? I had no clue.. I own a fair amount of Pig-Iron stuff from when I did a panic buy thinking they were going out of business.
The thing I don't like about Project Z is you have to buy more packs of models to get all the game cards (and many in the initial run of core sets had card errors). I'm one that already owned several boxes of the Wargames Factory survivors/zombies before purchasing Project Z, so I don't want to buy the same boxes again (at a higher cost with less models) just to get the cards. Game play is okay, but I kind of prefer the rules for TWD (even though I don't follow the show or comic).
I do like that new deal from Warlord, though, just for the miniatures and terrain!
