Man, that Angle vs Corbin match was just sad. To see Kurt, one of the best the business has ever seen, going out like that is just depressing. He was so immobile and slow compared to his heyday and his opponent didn't have the in ring charisma to make up for that.

And the crowd seemed a bit dead for the main event. That, combined with the dodgy finish of the match, took the match down a bit. While it's great that the women have had a main event at wrestlemania, it kinda highlights how that isn't necessarily a good thing any more as the show is so damn long that by the time it comes around the crowd is exhausted. This applies doubly so when you have multiple other babyface triumphs (Seth, Styles, Kofi etc.) which lessens the impact of another one.

Angle "should" have lost his last match but definitely to someone (anyone?) other than Corbin, who will gain nothing from it.

And yes, Wrestlemania is WAY too long - could definitely use an hour or so less to it next year.

Up to the end of Women’s Fatal Four Way.

Man, they need to drop Tamina again. But an ace win for the Iiconics. And not just because I totally fancy them!


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Absolutely amazing scrap between Bryan and Kingston. Ever move sold, ever kick out plausible. Match unmarried by cheaty nonsense on the sidelines.

Cracking pay off to Kingston’s push!

Hi Chaps,

So I watched my first wrestling event since the early 2000s yesterday evening, I'd been listening to the podcast 'Wrestle Me' for the last year so finally got inspired to watch some.

It was AEW Double or Nothing and I really loved it! I was especially impressed with the lower card as there were no duff matches.
The 3 women tag match where they were all Japanese I was pretty skeptical about when they were coming in and it seemed to start a bit slow, but they put on a great show once they got into it and you could hear the crowd start to show their support too!

I see that it's going to be on ITV 4 on Sunday evenings which is great, hopefully it is on catchup too.
Does anyone know whether I need to watch the other pay per views before Sunday to know what's going on? I could maybe fit in All Out but all three others would be a push!

Currently rather enjoying the abject nonsense that is the 24/7 championship.

It’s very, very silly. And I for one appreciate silly.

Other opinions are of course available and equally valid!

AEW starts on TNT this...Wednesday, I think?

That should be something worth checking out.

I'm just treading water with WWE right now until Finn comes back.

I don't currently have a convenient way to watch IMPACT.

I do watch ROH's weekly show too but I find myself fast forwarding through a lot of it.

I have high hopes for AEW's show...

It must come out early in America then, I can't watch it until Sunday so you can tell me if it is good or not!

AEW feels new and exciting which is what inspired me to watch. I was quite shocked when Dustin bladed against Cody though, I'm not sure if Kenny Omega did in the main event or just had a nosebleed.
It is a shame to read that Smiling Kylie Rae dropped out of AEW after Double or Nothing as she seemed decent in her first match.

I hear a lot of complaints about WWE and Vince so I don't really want to go back to that well, but the 24/7 championship does sound like a cool concept!

 Kroem wrote:
It must come out early in America then, I can't watch it until Sunday so you can tell me if it is good or not!

There's no way I can wait 4 days until Sunday morning so I'll be finding it somewhere to watch on Thursday.

As for your previous question, Fyterfest was okay as an event, I wasn't too taken by Fight for the Fallen but I would definitely try to catch All Out before the weekly programming starts up.

I hope AEW takes off.

Much as I like my WWE (I am a simple man of simple tastes), competition is never a bad thing. And WWE has left a lot of slack for a competitor to try to take up.

 Kroem wrote:

I hear a lot of complaints about WWE and Vince so I don't really want to go back to that well, but the 24/7 championship does sound like a cool concept!

I'd check out NXT UK. Vince isn't involved so it's free from his meddling and it has some phenomenal wrestlers on its roster and puts on some incredible matches (Pete Dunne vs Walter at NXT TakeOver: New York 2019, Grizzled Young Veterans vs Moustache Mountain at NXT UK TakeOver: Blackpool, Tyler Bate vs Walter at NXT UK TakeOver: Cardiff). It's on the WWE Network and you can probably also find it hosted elsewhere in a less than legal fashion.

Yea some competition will be good for WWE, the Monday Night Wars over again!

Thanks for the PPV info Riquende, based on that I'll make sure I watch All Out and leave the others for another time.

NXT UK sounds cool I'll check that one out too, I could even go to see that one live if I collect some other knuckleheads haha!

It is going to be the Wednesday Night Wars now!

I guess it's also good for the Wrestlers.

To my uncultured mind, it does seem to be 'you only make it on WWE', because they've got such reach.

The new one? AEW? Its started with ambition.

If it flies, WWE as a company will need to work harder to attract solid talent - and that could mean a sea change in their approach?

Well according to the TV show 'The Wrestlers' on Sky, the days of the big promotions being the only way to make it in wrestling are coming to an end.

The examples they gave were Sami Callihan and Shane 'Swerve' Strickland who both made a name for themselves mainly through social media and touring the independent circuit which would have been much harder in decades gone by.

It's been that way for a few years now - what with all of the options that currently exist for wrestlers.

Sure, WWE was the 'big fish' for quite some time, but if you put the work in, you could definitely make a name - and a living - for yourself on the independent circuit for a while now.

And now more so then ever.

I think it would be fair to say that WWE is the goal for a lot of wrestlers though, even if Vince then gives them a stupid gimmick or makes them bark like a dog...

Agreed - but less so now then it has been in a long, long time!

Spoilers for NXT, typing a lot here to try and avoid it showing up in preview box. Lalalalalalalalala


More lalalalala

I saw that and...I had a mixed response to it.

Good in that I think he can finally flourish again there, but bad in that he's continually overlooked on the 'main brands'.

I mean, the Fiend basically stole most of his stuff?

Still, NXT is actually poised to become something of a 'main brand' itself too now, going up against AEW, head to head.

And if I'm honest, NXT 'beat' AEW on their first night together.

NXT still felt fresh and exciting (stacked deck as it was with 3 championship matches) while AEW, while entertaining, felt a little overbooked.

Looking for great things from both NXT and AEW going forward though...

I did get up at 8 o'clock this morning to watch AEW, defo agree it was overbooked!

They obviously wanted to set up the Jerico vs The Elite storyline but they did way too much of it in one night imo.
The Pac vs Hangman fight dragged a little for me and I prefer the Genie girl or Samurai girl over Riho.

Saying all that though, still enjoyed it and will be watching the show next week. With Lucha Brothers, Young Bucks, Santana+Ortiz, SCU (the list goes on!) the tag team stable is looking great and I'm really looking forward to those matches in the future.
Individual matches tend to have too much rolling around on the floor for me, tag team matches are more action packed!

 Kroem wrote:
I did get up at 8 o'clock this morning to watch AEW, defo agree it was overbooked!

You do know it's been on the ITV hub to watch online since Thursday?

https://www.itv.com/hub/all-elite-wrestling-dynamite/2a7855a0001

Although a mate who watched it on there said some parts were cut, namely he didn't see the MJF vs Cutler match at all, nor Jack Evans/Angelico interrupting the Jay & Silent Bob interview. I'll continue to acquire it in my own special way if they're going to be dropping whole matches!

Ah I did not know that. Could've had a lie in I guess... it wasn't too bad though as the birds were singing and I had a nice breakfast
Bit strange to have it on catch-up before it has even been on T.V.!

The loss of a match is not ideal, was it any good?

 Kroem wrote:
Ah I did not know that. Could've had a lie in I guess... it wasn't too bad though as the birds were singing and I had a nice breakfast
Bit strange to have it on catch-up before it has even been on T.V.!

The loss of a match is not ideal, was it any good?

Well I'm an MJF fan, and I liked that he cut his own music immediately so he could come down the ramp insulting Cutler and the fans on the mic instead. The match itself was only a couple of minutes long (I saw some speculation it was ended early due to a legit injury to Cutler).

I'm still waiting for MJF to find his place in the roster - he almost won the Battle Royale that got Hangman Page the title shot, then made some big claims that he should get the shot instead, but that faded away as summer went on. He was given the 'honour' of insulting Bret Hart during the title belt unveiling. He came down to the ring with Cody for the Shawn Spears match and was making noises about being Cody's best friend, but was then nowhere to be seen during the various Jericho run ins during the week. It's weird, he seems to be on the periphery of some of the central storylines and then suddenly isn't involved at all and is only seen on Dynamite squashing a guy making his debut.

Yea I see what you mean, he seemed good on the mic at Double or Nothing and his chavvy burberry scarf was a good look for a heel!

Dynamite is on every week, I'm sure he'll get some more significant airtime soon.

How good is NXT World’s Collide?

It’s actually pretty good - well worth a watch!

Is anyone watching NWA POWERRR!?

I have been fairly impressed with the show so far. Back to the old school wrasslin shows of old.

Hokey content and vignettes are spot on IMO.

I’m watching it when I remember to, if that makes sense?

As you say, very old school feel which helps and hurts it at the same time.

One of the things AEW is doing better then NXT is the overall ‘feel’ of being in bigger arenas - gives a better overall buzz to the whole production.

Hi chaps,

Just thought I'd pop back in to say I've been watching AEW: Dynamite every week and am absolutely loving it!
I even started watching AEW: Dark on youtube too...

I'm really enjoying the Hangman and Kenny storyline atm, and seeing the Cody vs MJF rivalry heating up!

Good to see another Pro Wrestling fan in here!

AEW has been ‘winning’ the “Wednesday Night War” fairly consistently.

Not that NXT has been putting out a bad product, it’s just that AEW has that...special something going on.

I for one am looking forward to Drew ‘actually a proper Wrestler’ McIntyre inevitably defeating Boring Brock The Part Timers Part Timer Plot Armour Can’t Even Work The Mic Three Moves And One Trick Lesnar at Wrestlemania.

I very much respect Brock when it comes to MMA. Who couldn’t? Dude has skills. But when it comes to Wrasslin’, I find him dead weight and so very, incredibly, crushingly dull.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and at Royal Rumble? One got the distinct sense that Daniel Bryan’s heart just wasn’t in the plot, given how Bray Wyatt just ended up, sort of winning.

I mean, the match was far from as flaccid as Wyatt vs Orton, when ‘scary maggots’ were projected onto the ring because apparently spoopy. But man. The end just didn’t get over with me.

I’m 100% with you on Brock the Part-Timer going away.

Wrestlemania usually ends on a happy note, so here’s hoping Drew completes his journey!

I did see a clip of Edge returning for the Royal Rumble, that was pretty cool. Also went back to watch one of the matches from his scumbag days against Jeff Hardy, it reminded me just how fantastic Jeff Hardy was!

Edge was a standout moment, but then of course he was!

Worst bit about the Royal Rumble was just how long Lesnar was allowed to 'one shot' for.

Sure, build the hype for when he get's a pod shot then lobbed out the ring neat as you please. But man. They blew it. If only it was a champion with actually charisma (remember, this is only a criticism of Brock's place within the WWE).

The Women's Rumble was amazing. So much fight. So much variety. I've said it before and I'll say it again, but it's the Women's Division keeping me subscribed. They absolutely nailed the feel with the Women's Revolution, and it's barely slowed down since. Sure there are a couple of damp squibs (Tamina....) but the vast majority absolutely kill it in the ring.

The other matches were solid, apart from the end of Wyatt/Bryan. It just.....sort of ended, and in no way did it feel like Wyatt had actually earned it.

I'm yet to see AEW, but have only heard positive things about it. And as all competition is good competition, WWE desperately need a bit of spit and polish on their line up. Time for donkeys like Lesnar to get less limelight. Go with more interesting heel turns. Stop, take stock, really look at why NXT and the Women's Division are getting Over with the crowd. By no means directly replicate, but adapt.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

I'm yet to see AEW, but have only heard positive things about it.

You should definitely check it out. The weekly shows are available on the ITV hub app and broadcast on ITV4 and the PPVs are on Fite (and probably also available elsewhere for free for less scrupulous persons ).

There's a limit to how much wrestling a man can watch to be fair, I think choosing a brand and sticking with it is the most practical way of doing things when every brand has weekly, three hour programs.

Simone Johnson, daughter of Dwayne 'The Rock' Johnson has become the fourth generation of her family to sign with WWE.

Off to development, under HHH's watchful eye.

I wish her luck! Imagine a scrap between her and Charlotte Flair!

If there was any doubt before...


As of today, and the Saudi Super Showdown, your two heavyweight champions are:

Brock Lesnar (RAW, WWE Champion)
Goldberg (Smackdown, WWE Universal Champion)

Yes, that's right - two part-timers, both arguably past their primes, are the standard bearers.

One, presumably, so that he can feud with Roman Reigns, with the fans FINALLY getting behind him.

The other, hopefully, will lose to McIntyre at Wrestlemania.

Meanwhile, NXT puts out pretty solid shows, but still manages to look like the 'minor leagues' due to being handcuffed to the Full Sail Arena.

Which brings me to the best wrestling promotion going - yes, for me - in AEW.

Dynamite was just that this week - what a great show!

I'm excited for their Revolution PPV - about the only thing that continues to *not* click for AEW is their Women's Division - there's something missing there.

And - how can you not be excited for PAC v. Orange Cassidy?

"HE WILL TRY!"

Seriously though - AEW is by far my favorite wrestling promotion these days - and WWE's slate of programming if in danger of dropping off my schedule entirely.

(Let's go with FINN BALOR already!!!)

I think the most inexplicable thing about NXT and WWE is that when someone goes over to WWE, it's because they're immensely popular.

Consider Kevin Owens and Sammi Zayn. Both excellent in NXT. Turn up in WWE? And they just didn't do them justice. At all.

Owens became a slightly rubbish heel. Sammi? Oh, yeah. You're like, this bloke's sidekick.

Poo. Poo to that!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I think the most inexplicable thing about NXT and WWE is that when someone goes over to WWE, it's because they're immensely popular.

Consider Kevin Owens and Sammi Zayn. Both excellent in NXT. Turn up in WWE? And they just didn't do them justice. At all.

Owens became a slightly rubbish heel. Sammi? Oh, yeah. You're like, this bloke's sidekick.

Poo. Poo to that!

Prime case in point: Bayley. WWE took a great pure babyface from NXT and totally bollocksed it so badly on the main roster, making her so goddamn stupid, that they destroyed her momentum and character and had to turn her heel. I cannot think of any better example to demonstrate that the WWE creative have no clue how to build babyface wrestlers than their handling of Bayley.

You can also point to Bayley's successor in the NXT women's division: Asuka. Breaking her undefeated streak with Charlotte at Wrestlemania? Eh, okay it's not that bad, it was at least against a good opponent and at Wrestlemania. Her first pinfall loss is against Carmella as a result of a distraction by Ellsworth? WTF are you doing WWE?!

Though main roster Owens did give us his friendship with Chris Jericho which was pretty great.

That's pretty much it, isn't it?

WWE "Creative" for RAW and Smackdown - not very good. At all.

WWE NXT "Creative" - actually pretty good and, dare I say, creative.

I still think that once NXT regularly ventures beyond the confines of Florida, they'll do even better.

Though I'm sure that is some of the appeal of the brand for the wrestlers - a more limited travel schedule...

Still, AEW is putting out a much better product these days.

How to bring NXT into WWE.

A suggestion by a tosspot.

Find big namers close to in-ring retirement. They then get to pick either like, a tag team partner or two others for a three way tag team type thing, from the NXT roster.

Let them recruit not so much the NXT wrestlers - but their characters into the main roster.

I think I'm OK with NXT staying "NXT" - provided WWE treats it like a 'Big Boy Brand'.

That means giving it some slots for Wrestlemania, and keeping up the momentum they gave it during Survivor Series...

 Alpharius wrote:
I think I'm OK with NXT staying "NXT" - provided WWE treats it like a 'Big Boy Brand'.

That means giving it some slots for Wrestlemania, and keeping up the momentum they gave it during Survivor Series...

I'd prefer it not get put on Wrestlemania. It has Takeover which is better than Wrestlemania pretty much all the time anyway. Wrestlemania is way too long as it is, so either it gets even longer, or other matches get cut or shrunk. One of which will probably be the NXT match as Vince is not gonna give them the time they deserve/need to tell the stories they do.

Good point - Takeover usually happens the Saturday before the big WWE PPV's anyway.

Still, NXT had a great showing at Survivor Series this year...

I'm not sure I'll actually be paying attention to much WWE at all past this year's Wrestlemania anyway.

I did love the Cody vs Wardlowe cage match and surprisingly stayed engaged throughout the 30 min ironman match between Omega and Pac, I thought 30 mins would feel like way too long.

The womens division is getting better I reckon, although there are still no real storylines to match the men's division.
The title match between Ryho and Nyla was pretty decent and Kris Stadlander is my favourite alien!

Looking forward to watching Revolution at some point.

Revolution was awesome!

And Orange Cassidy was a revelation!

(Well, at least in the AEW sense - if you already knew about him you already knew he could wrestle.)

Cody losing was a mild surprise - but that neck tattoo?

Cool - but not as a neck tattoo - that location choice was a surprise - his losing to MJF, not so much.

And we have a new World Champ too...

And I sense a teased heel turn not happening, with the Young Bucks turning instead - time will tell!

Yea Revolution was really good, I'll use spoiler tags just in case anyone hasn't seen it yet.

Hope it is okay to necro this thread rather than start a new one but I am currently watching Talk 'N Shop A Mania and it is the best thing.

Backyard PPV put on by Luke Gallows and Karl Anderson. Funniest wrestling-related thing I have seen since the Shockmaster debut

I've pretty much given up on WWE RAW and SMACKDOWN, sticking only with NXT, and barely hanging on to that one.

IMPACT is as meh as it has always been, and ROH has been on shutdown since...March?

AEW is the only one that has managed to keep my interest for the last few months.

Listen to Cornette on youtube, man.

 Strg Alt wrote:
Listen to Cornette on youtube, man.

[Insert Simpsons "Old Man Shouts at Clouds" meme here]

 Dysartes wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
Listen to Cornette on youtube, man.

[Insert Simpsons "Old Man Shouts at Clouds" meme here]

Yeah. I respect Cornette for his knowledge of the history of pro-wrestling.

But the guy is an ass. He still clings to the idea that the business can be exposed. It can't, it is exposed already and has been since the 90s. I don't think anyone gets put off wrestling by comedy spots like dick suplexes, or Orange Cassidy doing crazy stuff with his hands in his pockets, or a force chokeslam. I do think they get put off by people who rage about such things and act like such stuff degrades the "sport".

It isn't a sport, it is entertainment. If people are entertained by that stuff then it does more good for the business than an hour long iron man match of pure mat wrestling which bores everyone would do.

Agreed!

I'm nowhere near as grumpy as Jim, and I happen to like Orange Cassidy quite a bit.

Hello.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Hope it is okay to necro this thread rather than start a new one but I am currently watching Talk 'N Shop A Mania and it is the best thing.

Backyard PPV put on by Luke Gallows and Karl Anderson. Funniest wrestling-related thing I have seen since the Shockmaster debut

I've been looking forward to this one SO much, being a big fan of the Talk'n'Shop antics of Gallows and Anderson. I find them somewhat scary, but also some of the funniest guys on Earth.

So I watched the PPV advertised as "the worst PPV ever". Kinda looks like they achieved that. I'm not big on Georgia area wrestling, so I'm not all too familiar with many of the people there. Lateron I learned that the little guy in that awful hardcore/no DQ match was the owner of the bar they hosted the watch-along in, and that's the only reason why he was on the card.

I have to say that I laughed at the Social Distancing Royal Rumble. The highlights came in the end - the fight between Chico Luchador and Chavo Guerrero was just so much fun, and the Boner Yard Match was something to behold. So many fun little bits, so much chaos, so much improvisation. Really enjoyed that one. So overall.... I'm not sure how to rate that show altogether. I paid for it, so, following human psyche, I want to justify my expenditure by thinking it was worth it. If you're not a big fan of Gallows&Anderson and their brand of humour I think this is one to skip.



Now as for Jim Cornette - Yup, I agree with A Town Called Malus here as well. I enjoy listening to Cornette for the most part, but not necessarily his podcast. There are few people who can talk like Cornette and CAN be as funny as Cornette is, but I think his podcast is too much catering to ....well, the fans of the podcast. Who seem to enjoy to be of a certain mindset to define themselves as a goup. A few months ago I realized in which situations I enjoy listening to Cornette talking the most - when he's sitting down with friends and talks about Wrestling. In these situations they usually seem to focus on talking about stuff they like (even if it's from 20, 30 years ago) rather than crapping on last week's Dynamite.

Speaking of which - weird times indeed, aren't they. I still watch Dynamite each week and I enjoy it very much. No Smackdown for me, no NXT for me (weirdly. I used to watch NXT for a while, but somehow I lost interest. You get in there, you start to like people, they get called up and they just ...are there. At best. Not easy to get into the new people in NXT all the time), RAW I'll watch maybe once in three months if I hear something crazy happens (last time: RAW Underground debuting). With the new additions to the roster I'm more inclined to watch IMPACT. I also hear they're really good with the booking now and give consistently good matches, but still. Meh. Never watched much RoH weeklies, but greatly enjoyed the PPVs. Shame about NWA Powerr. I also would have been interested in WxW Shotgun(?), but that went away too.

I'd love to watch NJPW again, but I think they still do everything without english commentary, and I have to admit that I'm having problems following NJPW without that. Or rather I'm afraid of missing things. I hear they taped a weekly show now though, which might be well worth a watch.


Well, so much for the state of things with me.

I’m getting frustrated with WWE at the moment.

They’ve got a load of talented wrestlers, and the women’s division continues to carry the show for me.

But they just ain’t got the writers. For me, they’re leaning too heavily on The Fiend angle. I don’t know what it is about that, but it’s just not ringing my bell. It may be that the scripted outcome is just so bloody obviously scripted, which takes any and all tension straight out of the match.

It’s not Bray himself. He’s not my favourite, but he’s still a solid performer.

I really, really dig the Fiend stuff. The low point probably was Seth Rollins BURNING DOWN the Firefly Fun House, but that's being ignored. Eversince that (and before that) the Firefly/Bray/Fiend segments have been okay at worst and just brilliant at best (Firefly Fun House Match at Wrestlemania will be kept in mind as one of the best segments in WWE history I think). Now that they brought in Alexa Bliss the whole thing got a new spin, which I like. I'm completely opposed to the whole "omg Bliss is Sister Abigail" idea (because she's not and most probably never will be, because it would make no sense), but getting her in as another factor is really interesting.

I assume it will lead to a Bray vs. Fiend match, and I'm all for that to be honest.


But in general I'm with you there, Mad Doc Grotsnik. WWE is just not very fun to watch. Lately I watched RAW for the first time in a while, and the commentary was just grating to me. All the catchphrases, the taglines, the nicknames and the odd terminology they have to get in there makes it no fun. Over on AEW Jim Ross might forget a name here and there, but their commentary is bloody fun rather than distracting. And it's not like WWEs commentators are bad. It's just the constraints of the format that makes it less fun to watch. And I think it's the same with the writing. Several of the recently fired people mention how angles are at the same time constricted and over-written due to how many people have to give their OK on storylines, right down to wording in promos.

Maybe it's just a fan's perspective who knows nothing about the going-ons, but I think it comes down to this once more: Just let the Wrestlers talk. At the very least the top guys (Rollins, Lynch, Owens, Reigns, Bliss, Bayley, Banks, Charlotte Flair, Orton, McIntyre, Wyatt, etc.) are wonderful talkers. Some I think might struggle a bit without a script at first, but I think they'd cope well, others are just really good on the mic.

 Sigur wrote:
All the catchphrases, the taglines, the nicknames and the odd terminology they have to get in there makes it no fun.

What catchphrases? This is perfectly natural commentary!

My favourite parody of the WWE's commentary catchphrase fetish probably where the OSW Review guys replaced the name of every one of Roman's moves with BIG DAWG in their reviews of the 2018 Royal Rumble and Wrestlemania

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
Listen to Cornette on youtube, man.

[Insert Simpsons "Old Man Shouts at Clouds" meme here]

Yeah. I respect Cornette for his knowledge of the history of pro-wrestling.

But the guy is an ass. He still clings to the idea that the business can be exposed. It can't, it is exposed already and has been since the 90s. I don't think anyone gets put off wrestling by comedy spots like dick suplexes, or Orange Cassidy doing crazy stuff with his hands in his pockets, or a force chokeslam. I do think they get put off by people who rage about such things and act like such stuff degrades the "sport".

It isn't a sport, it is entertainment. If people are entertained by that stuff then it does more good for the business than an hour long iron man match of pure mat wrestling which bores everyone would do.

You don't think people are upset about stupid things like invisible grenades & dick suplexes? Lol!
Stuff like this is one of the many reasons why "modern" wrestling is worthless. And now I am going back to watch more 80s and 90s wrestling...

Well, I doubt anyone is going to be booking Joey Ryan any time soon - that was the dick suplex guy, right? - after wrestling's #metoo equivalent over the last couple of months.

Not sure on the invisible grenade - thought the "force chokeslam" was a well-worked spot for a small indy show, but it isn't something I'd expect to see in a big promotion.

If you think modern wrestling is worthless, but the 'roid-heads of the 80's are providing good wrestling, I don't know what to tell you, brother.

 Strg Alt wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
Listen to Cornette on youtube, man.

[Insert Simpsons "Old Man Shouts at Clouds" meme here]

Yeah. I respect Cornette for his knowledge of the history of pro-wrestling.

But the guy is an ass. He still clings to the idea that the business can be exposed. It can't, it is exposed already and has been since the 90s. I don't think anyone gets put off wrestling by comedy spots like dick suplexes, or Orange Cassidy doing crazy stuff with his hands in his pockets, or a force chokeslam. I do think they get put off by people who rage about such things and act like such stuff degrades the "sport".

It isn't a sport, it is entertainment. If people are entertained by that stuff then it does more good for the business than an hour long iron man match of pure mat wrestling which bores everyone would do.

You don't think people are upset about stupid things like invisible grenades & dick suplexes? Lol!
Stuff like this is one of the many reasons why "modern" wrestling is worthless. And now I am going back to watch more 80s and 90s wrestling...

No, I said that the people who do get upset about that stuff are the ones who actually drive away general audiences by living up to the stereotype of the delusional wrestling fan who still thinks it is real.

As for older wrestling being better? By all means go and watch 80s shows where the majority of matches not on PPV were jobber squash matches and the finishes on PPV were often double count-out, brawl to the back or no contest because neither wrestler was willing to lose clean.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dysartes wrote:
Well, I doubt anyone is going to be booking Joey Ryan any time soon - that was the dick suplex guy, right? - after wrestling's #metoo equivalent over the last couple of months.

Yeah Joey Ryan is one of the much too long list of scumbags who have been operating in the business.

Not sure on the invisible grenade - thought the "force chokeslam" was a well-worked spot for a small indy show, but it isn't something I'd expect to see in a big promotion.

Exactly. Most big promotions are not doing comedy spots like these dick suplexes, force chokeslams etc. And yet that has not stopped wrestlings overall market from dwindling. It's almost like people doing stupid, comedy stuff for live crowds is not the thing "killing the business".

You know what has harmed the business? The backstage bullying gak that was enforced by those older guys like JBL, Bob Holly and Undertaker. That kind of hostile environment has done a hell of a lot of harm and I would posit is partially to blame for all of the stories of abuse and harassment that came out earlier this year by creating an environment where those older "locker room leaders" were able to intimidate and silence those newer people.

@Dysartes:

Roidheads?! This getting better and better. Yes, a wrestler NEEDS to have body definition or else you could hire your neighbour to perform in the ring instead. It's one of the reasons to even attend a wrestling event because you simply DON'T see such people in your daily life. Therefore it has a certain circus vibe to it.

Or hire CM PUNK. No, forget this proposal. I bet your neighbour would have a better physique than PUNK!


Edit:
Wrestling problems of today? Here are just a few which come to my mind:

- ZERO Superstars.
- Scripting.
- Use of silly spots as pointed out earlier.


Bullying & Harassment?
Yes, it's bad but this happens EVERYWHERE where humans interact with one another and can't as a consequence be one of the main reasons why modern wrestling is losing it's audience.

 Strg Alt wrote:
@Dysartes:

Roidheads?! This getting better and better. Yes, a wrestler NEEDS to have body definition or else you could hire your neighbour to perform in the ring instead. It's one of the reasons to even attend a wrestling event because you simply DON'T see such people in your daily life. Therefore it has a certain circus vibe to it.

And how many of them are still alive? Steroid and drug abuse was and is a massive problem which has cut short countless careers and lives.

Macho Man? Dead.
Rick Rude? Dead.
Big John Studd? Dead.
How many Von Erichs? Dead.
Curt Hennig? Dead.
Davey Boy Smith? Dead.
Eddie Guererro? Dead.
Elizabeth? Dead.
Hawk? Dead.
Sherri Martel? Dead.
Ultimate Warrior? Dead.
Yokozuna? Dead.

And so on.

@A Town Called Malus: To be fair, several of those have not died due to 'roid abuse. But of course in general I agree with you. Wrestling just used to be a lot more toxic (quite literally) a world to live in then than it is now thank god.


Concerning the #speakingout thing: I think Wrestling's probably especially prone to such abuse stuff due to several factors.


Anyway, I can see people getting upset about invisible hand grenades, Dong Style, etc.
I already get upset with all these wrestlers being so much younger and better looking and generally being better than I am. There's some stuff I don't like either, and there's some stuff I like about oldey-times wresting (recently watched a tag match between Rick Rude&Mr.Perfect and Ultimate Warrior&Texas Tornado. Made me understand why Mr.Perfect is so revered, made me marvel at what the Texas Tornado can do, gave me a glimpse into the magic that surrounded the Ultimate Warrior, made me appreciate Rick Rude). I'm not at Cornette-fan levels yet, but I could see myself getting real grumpy 20 years down the line.

Anyway, I think there's just a whole lot of space in Wrestling for all sorts of things. For every Orange Cassidy there's an MJF, for every Gentleman Jervis there's a Hangman Page. Just different things. Me, I don't like Darby Allin. Don't get anything from the guy, but you can't like everybody.

Wrestling problems of today? Here are just a few which come to my mind:

- ZERO Superstars.
- Scripting.
- Use of silly spots as pointed out earlier.

Fair points. As far as the first goes, I think that universally recognized stars everybody likes are just a thing of the past. Just like there isn't ONE blockbuster film a year any more everybody likes. Tastes have become too individualized or specialized for that. But I think there's plenty of superstars around. Reigns is a huge deal, Rollins is doing his best to be (and does a good job), Becky Lynch did an amazing job at being THE female wrestler and I think she was for a while. Charlotte Flair certainly is. Omega is a superstar (or was until about a year ago. Could be again in a heartbeat), I would claim that Moxley is, Japan has several superstars (Tanahashi's still around and a spectacle, Okada is a superstar, etc.

Scripting is a big problem in the WWE, that's true. I ranted about that in an above post.

"silly spots" aren't prevalent in the bigger promotions as far as I'm aware. Wouldn't work there either.


I don't mind 'rasslers to be bigger lads or lasses, with muscles and all. Doesn't have to look ridiculous (even though some of that should be there). I was kinda happy seeing Brian Cage in AEW. He looks like a 'proper wrestler', doesn't he. As I said above, there's a lot of space for everybody in the wrestling universe.

 Strg Alt wrote:
@Dysartes:

Roidheads?! This getting better and better. Yes, a wrestler NEEDS to have body definition or else you could hire your neighbour to perform in the ring instead. It's one of the reasons to even attend a wrestling event because you simply DON'T see such people in your daily life. Therefore it has a certain circus vibe to it.

If my neighbour has the skill to pull off the moves, I'd be happy to watch it.

When I watch wrestling, I'm not doing so because of the physiques. Sure, a wrestler needs to be in good shape, but I'd much rather they be healthy than abusing steroids, etc, in order to get to the "body-builder" level of shredded. Getting to a good point through genuine workouts like, as far as I know, Big E or Sheamus? Sure. Use a needle like (allegedly) Lex Luger, Ultimate Warrior, etc? No thanks.

Vince having an obsession with such hulks is a good chunk of the reason why we lost Eddie far before his time. I'd also argue it contributes to at least one of your points further down the post.

 Strg Alt wrote:
Or hire CM PUNK. No, forget this proposal. I bet your neighbour would have a better physique than PUNK!

Again - Punk could go in the ring, cut a damn good promo, and has definite charisma. I'll take him over the Warrior any day of the week.

Well, maybe aside from the Warrior's squashes of Honky and HHH - those were amusing.

 Strg Alt wrote:
Wrestling problems of today? Here are just a few which come to my mind:
e
- ZERO Superstars.
- Scripting.
- Use of silly spots as pointed out earlier.

I think "zero" wrestling superstars is pushing it, but we certainly have fewer becoming general household names than we used to. As much as a vocal chunk of WWE fans may dislike him, Roman is probably the closest as a current "main roster" performer to hitting that status in Western audiences - I'm not sure how NJPW or Stardom stars do in Japan for that sort of recognition.

Thing is, this isn't a new issue. John Cena is probably the last "Superstar" that people outside of wrestling knew about, and a chunk of that is thanks to the "You can't see him" memes. Before that, you're talking the likes of The Rock, Stone Cold and Chris Jericho, with The Undertaker before them. As wrestling has lost cross-promotional opportunities, it has lost the ability to make household names - it is no coincidence that a lot of the ones people do know are from the 80's when the Rock & Wrestling Connection was at its peak.

Scripting is definitely a problem for WWE, but I wouldn't argue it is a problem for wrestling as a whole. As far as I hear - and for better or worse - AEW aren't doing scripted promos, and they sound more natural and more believable as a result. Scripted promos can help talents who aren't as comfortable going off-the-cuff - if they get the chance to make delivering them look natural - but there are a host of talent in WWE I imagine would be just fine with a list of bullet points they need to cover.

I'll add onto your scripted point, when talking about WWE, with the infamous "banned words" list. Not using pronouns makes the commentary sound fecking ridiculous, for one thing.

We've already touched on "silly spots", as you call them - but how many of them do you see in the big promotions? WWE, AEW, even Impact - none of those are using invisible grenades or "force chokeslams". The closest you probably get at the minute might be Orange Cassidy, with either "the most devastating kicks in all of wrestling", or his hands-in-pockets spots. The kicks are tied to him being the King of Sloth Style, while the pockets help demonstrate just how good he actually is - could you manage a kip-up like that?

 Strg Alt wrote:
Bullying & Harassment?
Yes, it's bad but this happens EVERYWHERE where humans interact with one another and can't as a consequence be one of the main reasons why modern wrestling is losing it's audience.

"Main" reasons? Maybe not. I wouldn't be surprised if it were a contributory factor, however.

Sorry if it feels like a dog piling Strg Alt...

But Vince’s beef obsession is, arguably, leaving far better technical Wrestlers in the shade, whilst giving his beefs a big push.

I greatly enjoyed Kofi’s push. He’s a cracking wrestler, does solid mic work, has loads of charisma, and it was nice for him to get a break from the usual New Day shenanigans. He got heat, and deservedly so.... then it all just sort of petered out.

The Fiend is just taking too long.

What really irritates me though is that a decent chunk of the actual in-ring action is still satisfying to watch. It’s just the build up, feuds and even endings are feeling very tired.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyways. Time for so much needed levity in a thread, despite peeps disappointments being shared, albeit not for the same reasons.

WWE Network continued to kick ass. Me? I came late to Wrasslin’. Like, just in time to see Paige in her PPV debut. Hooked ever since.

So whilst I had a passing familiarity with the names, I didn’t see the classic era, despite living through it.

But with the WWE Network, I can do that. Have decided to kick off with the first ever Wrestlemania, and work through however many are on there.

And as Vince has bought up or bought out pretty much all his contemporaries, WWE is now the curator of all USA televised wrestling....well, this could be cool! If they can get those hundreds of thousands of tapes digitised and archived, WWE Network will become the world’s greatest wrestling museum.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeHBauzInT0

I'm very late to the party as well. I only started watching right after the split of the Shield, but been on board ever since. There's just nothing else like pro wrestling, is there. It's a soap opera, but more real. It's like theatre. Or circus.

I did have a WWE Network subscription, but eventually cancelled it when I realized I just didn't watch it. They got some cracking documentaries though and of course... well, ALL the wrestling. Really impressive.

Pro-Wrestling. It’s combat ballet!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Pro-Wrestling. It’s combat ballet!

So WWE apparently built a Thunderdome. With DRONES and LAYZORS. And it's Smackdown-exclusive? Or for RAW as well? Either way, interesting. Not a bad move, at least not a stupid one.

I imagine it's for both brands, Siggy - they're moving RAW & SD out of the Performance Center into an arena in Florida (sorry, I've forgotten which one), though I believe they're prohibited from having fans in attendance until November, or something like that.

It’s definitely utterly bizarre watching it without a crowd.

I mean, the wrestlers and colour announcers are clearly game, but man it serves to show how much a hyped crowd adds to the whole shebang.

I’m massively impressed by the first Wrestlemania, and I can see just how much was riding on it in terms of WWE’s history. The crowd are going mental during the Hogan top card, and for good reason.

The rest of the card just can’t compete with the showmanship in that match.

Will do Wrestlemania 2 next, I think. Look to see how quickly it evolved, as for the most part it’s all oddly amateur.

I've got used to having no crowd now, I assume WWE does the same as AEW by having the lower card wrestlers around the ring?

I listen to a podcast called WrestleMe that goes through all the Wrestlemanias which is pretty fun.

Dynamite has been having some great episodes lately, although there has been too much comedy stuff in parts (I won't even try to defend Orange Numpty!) there has been a lot of cool matches and storylines. That Eddie Kingston match being the standout of course.

AEW: Dark has also been having some great episodes lately, showcasting some new talent and undercard storylines.

Hmmm, you may have a point there about AEW doing a bit too much comedy.

On the other hand, they got (at least in my opinion) a pretty good track record in terms of humour. However, some more serious stuff would work rather well I think.

@ Town Malus:

Steroid & drug abuse:
Have you seen the autopsy report of any of those dead wrestlers? No? I guessed so because it is highly unlikely that any of them died purely of steroid abuse.

Who took steroids too in the 80s? For example Schwarzenegger, Stallone & Hogan. Notice anything? All still ALIVE.


@ Dysartes:
Punk better than UW?! Ah, you can't argue about taste. I guess there is one Punk match on one of my DVDs and when you compare both of their entrances it's no wonder why I almost fell asleep when Punk moved into the arena.

 Strg Alt wrote:
@ Town Malus:

Steroid & drug abuse:
Have you seen the autopsy report of any of those dead wrestlers? No? I guessed so because it is highly unlikely that any of them died purely of steroid abuse.

Hard to find any autopsy report where steroid abuse is the sole cause of death, let alone just looking at wrestlers - they do feature as a contributing factor to a number of heart attack/heart disease cases, though. Curt Hennig and Davy Boy Smith being two examples, from memory, where they are mentioned as factors.

 Strg Alt wrote:
@ Dysartes:
Punk better than UW?! Ah, you can't argue about taste. I guess there is one Punk match on one of my DVDs and when you compare both of their entrances it's no wonder why I almost fell asleep when Punk moved into the arena.

If you're trying to claim that Warrior was a better wrestler than Punk then you're right - there's no accounting for taste.

Warrior is very much an impact player - a proto-Goldberg, if you will. A fairly iconic theme, lots of energy in the entrance - those poor ring ropes - ideally followed by a 2-5 minute match. Generally finish with a Gorilla Press Slam into the Warrior Splash, and you're done.

Was he good at that limited package? Absolutely.
Was he a "physical specimen"? Sure.
Was he, as we came to find out after he left wrestling, absolutely nucking futs? ...well, yeah.

Thing is, that's not all there is to being a professional wrestler. For one thing, there's promo work. I don't think anyone has ever managed to figure out what the Warrior was trying to say if you put a mic in front of his face. He didn't have the stamina to be able to perform a longer match, and he'd get gassed if he tried (see also Goldberg vs. Steven/William Regal, where a 10 minute match showed Big Bad Bill up). As noted above, the vast majority of Warrior matches would follow the template I gave above, without adding in new moves over time. He rarely, if ever, did "the job" if required, believing it'd harm his character.

Compare to CM Punk - Iconic theme? Certainly once "Cult of Personality" was used. Crowds definitely would react to the initial chords. Not so much energy in the entrance, for sure - though I always liked the "It's clobbering time!" shout. Great to exceptional promo skills, even if you discount the "pipebomb" - and pretty good on commentary, too. Stamina wasn't an issue - look at the Money in the Bank 2011 main event as an example, where he wrestled John Cena for 33 minutes. I'm not sure off-hand if he ever wrestled a one-hour Iron Man match, but he had the tank for it. I don't think you can say his matches followed a specific template, and his moves evolved over time - heck, he had to change his primary finisher when he entered ECW, and he added the Savage Elbow Drop after the Macho Man passed - and did a good job of it. And if he needed to do "the job" for a story, he would do.

If you look at most measures you'd use to look at how "good" a professional wrestler was, Punk would outscore the Warrior by a distance.

Warrior was good-to-great at specific role and match structure; Punk was generally great at a much wider range.

Different people look for different things in their Wrestlers.

Me? I can’t stand Brock Lesnar. Whilst I absolutely respect his athletic skills, and his MMA record, as a sports entertainer, I find him sorely lacking in the entertainer word.

Whereas I really, really like Roman Reins. Whilst I get he struggles to get over with many other fans, I’m not among them.

Similarly Bray Wyatt. I find he’s overused, especially in the Fiend angle.

The trick for a given company is to make the most of their roster, and find new and interesting angles.

The man I respect most in WWE? Seth Rollins. He’s an incredible Wrestler, and is so as both Heel and Face.

Then we have the wasted talent. Nakamura and Styles. Those dudes have serious levels of talent, and it’s seem the WWE just doesn’t know what to do with them.

I like Brock Lesnar. He's perfect for the role. He's WWE's Bowser. And he can be really entertaining if he wants to, especially in recent years I feel. He basically carried the Royal Rumble this year and was fun between people running at him, and putting people like Keith Lee over.

Roman Reigns is good at all the things, that is true. The less WWE do with him the more he'll be over.

Wyatt -supergood.

Rollins has done great and when I started watching he was right up there as one of my favourites. Never bought him as a face, but as a heel he's class. I just don't enjoy him in the role of WWE's flag-bearer. It's unnecessary.

Agreed on the wasted talent. I think Styles is used really well actually, especially given how he wants to work a reduced schedule. Nakamura... well, he enjoys the surfing. Caesaro's always mentioned when it comes to underused talent, and I'm inclined to agree. Thing is that they got a LOT of people and not a lot of interest in storylines which aren't about the top guy or an attraction.



In the end - yup, everybody likes different things. And that's one of the reasons why there isn't ONE superstar these days. There can't be.

Yeah, WWE have a bunch of talent on their roster that is under-utilised - or, worse, that get's "Vince'd" rather than pushed in a way that makes sense.

Take Chad Gable, for example - why is he being used as "Shorty G", in some form of basketball gear (or, as one YT channel describes him, as "a walking biscuit"). Use him as this generation's Kurt Angle, for crying out loud - though leaning face, rather than heel.

Nakamura, Roode, The Revival, Kairi Sane, Aleister Black, Ricochet - all great wrestlers who were really good in NXT, but have been wasted on the "main roster".

A couple of weeks ago I bought the Royal Rumble DVD. It was interesting how the apparel of the wrestlers changed with time:

The earliest Royal Rumble events showed multiple colorful COSTUMES worn by the wrestlers.
However the last matches on the DVD lacked "colour" as a lot of wrestler wore just black wrestling gear.


What does a wrestler need to be successful? According to Cornette there are three categories:

1. Most important
Looks
An imposing physique and a good costume help. Famous examples would be Hulk Hogan & Ultimate Warrior. Having such specimens on a poster will draw people to the event.


2. Important
Promo
A wrestler can create interest in an upcoming match by delivering good promos but if he should "duck" at them, WWF will give him a manager as a mouthpiece. Famous example would be Yokozuna with Mr. Fuji.


3. Least important
Skill
This category encompasses technical wrestling. A very skilled wrestler would be for example Mr. Perfect.

A-yup. Few days ago I watched a match between Ricochet and Pentagon Jr. in Lucha Underground. Wow. Never been a huge fan of Ricochet (because Will Ospreay is around), but he can definately do more than he does now. The memorable thing I remember of Ricochet's main roster career is when the slipped during his entrance (right after the flippy thing against the ropes). That's saying something.

With all due respect to ol' Corny, Strg, he doesn't seem to appreciate that wrestling has moved on since his prime in the late 80's or early 90's.

Even if you agree with how Corny is ranking those points - and I don't - there are a number of others which affect whether or not you'll make it as a "Superstar". For a simple one, how your promotion books you is a big factor - I think we can agree that Mojo Rawley has the sort of look Vince no doubt drools over, but because he is booked poorly, nobody would buy him as a main event talent.

For the last decade or so, social media savvy is also a big factor, especially if you factor in how easily clips of your work can be made into GIFs. For a recent example of the latter, look at Keith Lee - last I checked, GIFs of him rising up behind Finn Balor, or pouncing Adam Cole so far into the crowd he disappears out of frame are still popular, and help him bring recognition.

Of course, and especially in the case of WWE, if you get yourself over when they don't think you should be over, that can have negative consequences. Look at Zack Ryder for one example of that, or all of Rusev Day for another. Trying to grab the brass ring when the company doesn't want you to just means you're going to take a kicking.

Ricochet is undoubtedly being held back by WWE in regard to the moves he is and isn't allowed to do, Sigur - which is a shame, as he seemed a decent guy the one time I saw him at an indy event (RIP Defiant Wrestling), so I'd like him to succeed.

Take the NXT moment between him and the Dream where Ricochet flipped out of the ring, landed on his feet like it was nothing, and casually told the Dream to show him what he could do - the athleticism, combined with Dream's reaction, told you all you needed to know. I doubt he'd be allowed to do something like that on RAW or SD.

Oh right, you saw him live. You Brits get it all. I watched a WWE house show last fall after my sister said she'd want to go. Well, that was underwhelming for all parts involved. Poor wrestlers. It was on a Monday, people sitting on their hands, the whole situation being kinda awkward. The Walter-pop was kinda good, as was Caesaro being over like rover. The Revival did the Young Bucks pose during a match which made me feel smarky.

Overall though I'd suggest people to go to local indy shows rather than WWE shows.

As for Ricochet in specific - I think that some of the really established flippy wrestlers just don't mesh with the WWE style of wrestling. I used to be a HUGE fan of Kushida in NJPW. He can do anything, plus he had a geat theme. Haven't seen him in NXT yet. I wonder if he does well.

Yeah, over two Defiant shows I've seen and/or talked to WALTER, Zack Sabre Jr, Will Ospreay, Bea Priestly, War Machine (before they got WWE'd) and Ricochet - not to mention several that I'm less happy to name post-#speakingout.

Still haven't made it to a WWE show, though that's more due to my lack of organisation/awareness than because I don't want to attend one.

I'm not entirely sure that NXT know what they want to do with Kushida - he has some pretty decent matches, but they've yet to put any gold on him. I believe he was in a triple threat match last week, but it could've been the week before.

You probably want to add Ospreay onto that list of people you don't want to mention considering he made the IWL stop booking Polyanna after she claimed that one of Ospreays friends (Scott Wainright) sexually assaulted her.

Aw, pre-WWE War Machine. Faint memories of two huge guys flying around, sporting Ork-y gear.

Seems like Renée Young left WWE. Shame. But I guess she can do anything. She seems a super lady.

Anyone else seen the preview pictures of the WWE Thunderdome, and wonder why the wrestlers seem to be set up for a big game of Guess Who?

I've seen it now.

It looked darned impressive. And it's hard to tell if it's all real or not. Weird times. The thing with the audience via webcams looks cool in pictures, but I think it won't quite work. It's like when you sit with friends and see something funny you laugh. If you sit at home in front of your computer and you see something funny you don't move a muscle, and think "ha.".

I have to admit that I'm starting to think that there seems to be a bit of an overreliance on the Fiend, at least in Smackdown. Or they just had him in the front and end of Smackdown to show off their stage show in the beginning.


Also: poor, poor Retribution. Do you think WWE actually has plans for them? The bit that The Miz came out late and in a dark suit ( :O ) COULD mean something interesting, but still... poor Retribution.



Throughout the week a German TV channel ran the last few Summermlams and I caught AJ Styles vs. John Cena at Summerslam 2016. Great match. Really, really enjoyed it.

I think the Fiend/Vince segment was primarily to show how entrances could look in that set-up, with a side bonus of setting up Braun to get jumped by RETRIBUTION. Not that I think Bray is working with them.

I think the Firefly Fun House, into the brawl, into the ambulance finale was the main thrust of the Bray/Braun stuff for the week, and we'd've got that even if they hadn't moved into the Thunderdome.

I am curious if Alexa will get involved in their match - and, if so, who she'll hurt, and who she'll heal.

Apparently that's the second time the Miz has been late to the party in countering RETRIBUTION, so there might be something there. I'm willing to give the angle time, but wish they'd balance their antics between RAW and SD a bit better.

Semi-related - network exclusive clips of Big E being interviewed are hilarious. The one from SD should be on WWE.com.

Yup, absolutely agree. Alexa Bliss is a great addition to the Fiend/Braun story. Surely one of the main draws of Summer Slam. Even though I have to say that I'm very keen on watching the Rollins/Mysterio match. Really enjoyed the Dominic storyline so far (underwhelming Extreme Rules match aside).

I just opened a new tab to look up the whole card of Summerslam. Just hit the first link and was very amused about the picture they chose for the article. https://www.cnet.com/news/wwe-summerslam-2020-how-to-watch-start-time-full-card-and-wwe-network/. Top Notch work there, Cnet.

Anyway, here's what I think will happen:

The stipulation for the Sonya/Mandy match changed on Friday - possibly as a result of the incident during the week. I suspect we'll see Mandy win that one to give Sonya some time off (and to give her space to deal with the legal side of things).

The reason you might not have recognised her was that Sonya cut a bunch of her hair off a couple of weeks back, which is why she's now in what keeps getting called a "soccer mom" look.

I think it says something for the card that the Sonya/Mandy match is currently the only one I feel confident predicting.

If Alexa does interfere in the Fiend/Braun match, based on interactions over the last couple of weeks I think she's more likely to aid The Fiend - hell hath no fury, after all.

Well, Summerslam!


Overall - really fun show. Not really convinced by the webcam audience. I suppose it allows the WWE to very much unashamedly use canned cheers and boos now. More so than before.

Just started watching All Out.

"You're in my home." "you're in my world" "and I'm a dentist!".

Quotes for eternity.

The Matt Hardy incident sounds a bit worrying, I'll be honest.

Oh yes, it looked horrifying. The whole match went down really weirdly. Of course such a thing happening in a loser leaves town match is particularly problematic. In my opinion they still should have called it off, but oh well. Just glad I don't read wrestling twitter (or twitter outside my wargamey niche in general).

There were some things that also went wrong, and for some reason this was the first AOE PPV in which things that annoy me a little piled up. Gimmick stuff during the battle royale, too much chatter from commentary (3 is too many. I appreciate Jim Ross, I appreciate Tony Schiavone (especially the interplay between those two), Taz is a great commentator and Excalibur ...knows a lot? But the constant talking was too much for me. Especially if during a match Wresters say something as well.

 Dysartes wrote:
The Matt Hardy incident sounds a bit worrying, I'll be honest.

They fethed up, for sure. That match should have ended right then.

Finn Balor is *finally* the Champ again!

I do wonder if he'll bring back the Demon once Kross returns from injury?

(If he hold the title that long, of course!)

I'm not sure how well the Demon meshes with the Prince - but we'll see.

Looks like there was some interesting stuff on AEW last night, including one big new debut.

@Alpharius: I really like what Balor's doing on NXT again. Especially that they don't get the daemon out all the time, as it should be. But for a match once Kross returns... yeah, I'd like to see that.

@Dysartes: Oh yes. Wow, the guy was beaming. Really nice to see. I did NOT look forward to that segment, because it's very much something you'd see on RAW as well, and I didn't care all that much for the fake-outs in front (although: Brian Pillman Jr. Nice.), but the reveal was really good in the end. It would have been good in either case I guess, because he was so happy, people were happy... great stuff.

Also: The Matt Hardy thing was handled well.

NXT and AEW are the only two managing to hold my attention these days...

They're doing some good stuff - more so than RAW and Smackdown!

Yup.

Women’s WWE remains a firm favourite. It seems that when the Women progressed from NXT to the main roster, they took everything great about them along with.

The men? Not so much. And I am not blaming the athletes. It’s the writers, 100% of the time.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Yup.

Women’s WWE remains a firm favourite. It seems that when the Women progressed from NXT to the main roster, they took everything great about them along with.

The men? Not so much. And I am not blaming the athletes. It’s the writers, 100% of the time.

The Roman Reigns and Paul Heyman stuff seems interesting. Very different dynamic than Heyman had with Brock and Roman's heel turn has been so long coming. Just gotta wait and see how creative manages to mess up a killer monster heel whose own manager is seemingly terrified of him.

But yeah, the women's stuff always seems to be at least more consistent, though not without its own major issues.

I have been completely out of wrestling for a long long time but was majorly into it in my youth.

I just looked up the WWEs website to look at the roster of wrestlers. What a bunch of boring looking people wearing black.

There used to be so much personality! Ultimate Warrior was always my favorite. But I mean...

These guys.
have more personality in their basic look then any 4 people in that entire roster.

Boo I say! Boo!

WWE has, sort of, more embraced technical brilliance.

Yes they still have their Splungers (geet big muscle Mary’s), but the actual Wrestling is more dynamic.

Now, I’m not saying it’s better. Just that it’s more My Thing. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the sheer choreography we’re seeing is far more Combat Ballet than two choncs just bashing each other to bits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We’re also at a crossroads for WWE.

With the advent of AEW (shamefully I’ve still not watched it) they have, if you will, an Organised Resistance. Top hole competitor that promises to give the audience that which WWE can’t. Or more likely, won’t.

And everyone needs a competitor. Someone to take the risks you didn’t, and inspire you onwards.

Here’s hoping WWE doesn’t just swallow up AEW.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


And everyone needs a competitor. Someone to take the risks you didn’t, and inspire you onwards.

Here’s hoping WWE doesn’t just swallow up AEW.

Its alright MDG AEW are doing WCW of the mid nineties, taking on ex wwe talent. Hopefully they don't pollute their own talent pool and just become Bullet club and chums....wait......

I mean thats good. The choreography is a must because it IS all basically scripted at least in part.

But look, wrestling is a soap opera that plays out in fights. And soap operas are built on the backs of the characters. Wrestling used to have lavish interesting characters.

Uping the "special effects" by getting better at the fighting is great. But why should I give a gak that big dude with shaved head in black underoos is fighting big dude with shaved head in black underoos? If you are going to soap opera is up then give me some rowdy roddy pipers, mankinds, psycho sid viciouses, rick flairs, million dollar mans, and ultimate warriors. Wheres my Papa Shongos? Or even a rivalry like Big Boss Man and Nails?

I have no idea what AEW is. I will look that up.

I can only recommend watching some.

I’m not a big fan of the glitz stuff. But I do appreciate some decent script writing. WWE are deeply irritating in that regard.

There are sparks and runs of sheer brilliance, no doubt. But too many outstay their welcome or just sort of fizzle out.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I can only recommend watching some.

I’m not a big fan of the glitz stuff. But I do appreciate some decent script writing. WWE are deeply irritating in that regard.

There are sparks and runs of sheer brilliance, no doubt. But too many outstay their welcome or just sort of fizzle out.

What Jim Cornette gets right IMO is that you need time to build a story, you need to tell that story within the ring. WWE have for many years disregarded a slow burn story, partly because of VKM's distaste for old school 'wrasslin.

Personally I hope WWE pays off its recent history with BIg E originally being in Roman Reigns position as top star. RR is now in the right place albeit 3 or 4 years late and Big E Looks like he will be pushed for a run. BIg E winning the title from RR at Wrestlemania would be a nice little tale, if a bit smarky.

To be honest, right now?

I’m just chuffed my Wrestling literacy is sufficient for people to take my comments and consider them.

It really is absolutely top notch entertainment when it’s good!

 Mr. Burning wrote:
What Jim Cornette gets right IMO is that you need time to build a story, you need to tell that story within the ring. WWE have for many years disregarded a slow burn story, partly because of VKM's distaste for old school 'wrasslin.

Definitely one of the few things ol' Corny gets right - and with the Bayley/Sasha stuff, we're starting to see the pay-off of a long-term feud.

Lance, if you want colour within WWE at present, I direct you to The New Day (Big E, Kofi Kingston, Xavier Woods) - probably WWE's top tag team/stable for the past five years, though two of them are currently injured.

I was into wrestling as a kid in the late 80s and then again in the late 90s thanks to ECW and the Attitude Era. Then fell away from it till Smackdown went to Fox last year. My daughters love it and I love watching it with them.

I love that Cesaro and Shinsuke are the tag champs and I hope they get a long run and can build up the tag division.

The women have tended to have better personalities and stories than the guys.

The Roman Reigns heel turn was a great moment and I hope it lasts for a while.

What do they think of Bray, The Fiend and the Firefly Fun House, bbb?

 Dysartes wrote:
What do they think of Bray, The Fiend and the Firefly Fun House, bbb?

I'm curious about that as well.

Is the friendly children's presenter in a red sweater still a thing that is on TV nowadays? I suppose the general style of presenting will still be there but wondering if the clothing choices have changed, I guess

And on thinking on that, Bray Wyatt new stable of dark children's presenters with intersecting vignettes effectively forming a complete children's program station when?

I just asked my 11 year old and she said she think's he's a good wrestler and she loves the Firefly Funhouse.

I like everything about Bray/Fiend except when he gets in the ring. Just seems too powerful an entity to care about wrestling/be hurt by wrestling.

It should be interesting to see where they're evolving Alexa Bliss towards, as well - Twisted Bliss as a female Fiend?

Didn't she use the Mandible Claw on Smackdown? So it might be the way things are going. Which I'm all okay with. Alexa Bliss has been great with any role she's been given so far (being ten times better a heel than a face of course). She could pull it off.

As for women's wrestling in WWE on the whole - I absolute agree with what's been said above. It's consistent (mainly), entertaining, and mostly not very embarassing to watch. I love how they actually took time with the Bayley/Sasha storyline and they finally get the story they deserve. Asuka has been consistently great for the past months, carrying large chunks of the raw women's roster. The whole Becky Lynch thing has been really good as well before. Splitting up the IIconics was rather sad to see, but oh well.

Now as for AEW: Well. The ex-WWE people of course stick out and probably are a bit of a requirement in the beginning. And truth be told - I love watching Jon Moxley. Liked him in WWE, loved him in NJPW and AEW. Great promo, good wrestler, great champion. They do build their own people too though. MJF is great at everything. Sammy Guevara is a tip top level twerp. Britt Baker got a TON better, even though I'm still not a big fan. It'll take 10 horses to make me a fan of Darby Allin, but people seem to like him. And so on. Yeah, the women's division is a bit of a problem (especially in comparison to the great work WWE's been doing for the most part on the women's division), but Hikaru Shida is a really good champion, they got Diamante now, I think there's huge potential in Abaddon. Can't wait to see Yuka Sakasaki back once travelling gets easier, I really like Shanna, and if they get Thunder Rosa to work for them some more that would be great.

"Bullet Club and Friends" - well, for once the Bullet Club's been the hottest thing in wrestling for the past years and most people have been in the US branch anyway (recently I heard SCU were in the Bullet Club at one point. I hadn't even known that.). And The Elite took the ball and ran away with it and painted it golden and called it AEW. So of course the Young Bucks, Omega, Page and Cody are at the core of anything at AEW. In fact they used Omega (in his role of "best singles wrestler in the world, etc.") pretty sparingly over the first year. But now things seem to pick up steam. Heel Bucks, Tweener Cleaner Omega, Distraught Face Hangman Page - this will be good.


Either way, the pandemic (and to a lesser degree AEW) forced WWE to be a bit bolder and more inventive, and that certainly can't be bad. NXT seems to be a bit less nice now that it's mainly used to counter-program AEW and running on tv now and all, but oh well. Still good (btw, Balor and Adam Cole both also have been in the Bullet Club as well of course.). All's well, lots of wrestling. Lots of good wrestling.

 Sigur wrote:
Didn't she use the Mandible Claw on Smackdown? So it might be the way things are going. Which I'm all okay with. Alexa Bliss has been great with any role she's been given so far (being ten times better a heel than a face of course). She could pull it off.

Not sure about the Claw - though the Fiend did use that on her - but she did hit Nikki Cross with Sister Abigail on the last SD, before wandering away from the 4-way match in a trance...

 Sigur wrote:
As for women's wrestling in WWE on the whole - I absolute agree with what's been said above. It's consistent (mainly), entertaining, and mostly not very embarassing to watch. I love how they actually took time with the Bayley/Sasha storyline and they finally get the story they deserve. Asuka has been consistently great for the past months, carrying large chunks of the raw women's roster. The whole Becky Lynch thing has been really good as well before. Splitting up the IIconics was rather sad to see, but oh well.

There's been some good work at the top end of the card, but they could really do with getting some mid-card feuds working better. It often feels like you have the [BRAND] Championship, and no-one else is really doing anything. And thanks to Vince being Vince, there's still a number of cringeworthy storylines around the women - I give you the "Let's cuck Rusev!" story, for the most recent big example.

 Sigur wrote:
Now as for AEW: Well. The ex-WWE people of course stick out and probably are a bit of a requirement in the beginning. And truth be told - I love watching Jon Moxley. Liked him in WWE, loved him in NJPW and AEW. Great promo, good wrestler, great champion. They do build their own people too though. MJF is great at everything. Sammy Guevara is a tip top level twerp. Britt Baker got a TON better, even though I'm still not a big fan. It'll take 10 horses to make me a fan of Darby Allin, but people seem to like him. And so on.

Given how many people WWE have had on their roster over the years, it's a bit tricky to not hire ex-WWE guys. Hell, Kenny Omega wrestled for them (briefly) at one point.

Mox is definitely doing better now he doesn't have to be wacky. Jericho has been gold for them, he really has. Dustin Rhodes is still a Natural.

The not-WWE wrestlers they're developing are going to take time, so it isn't surprising the first year has leaned on ex-WWE peeps so much - if you've not been used to TV-style wrestling, that's something you need to train for and get used to, which is why Dark is so handy. I'd add Orange Cassidy, Best Friends and Jurassic Express as wrestlers or teams from outside WWE that seem to have flourished within the first year of AEW.

 Sigur wrote:
Yeah, the women's division is a bit of a problem (especially in comparison to the great work WWE's been doing for the most part on the women's division), but Hikaru Shida is a really good champion, they got Diamante now, I think there's huge potential in Abaddon. Can't wait to see Yuka Sakasaki back once travelling gets easier, I really like Shanna, and if they get Thunder Rosa to work for them some more that would be great.

They definitely messed up the booking to start with, and then just when they were getting back on track both Britt Baker and Kris Statlander got injured - and given COVID disruption meant certain Japanese talent couldn't come back, it left the division a bit stretched. Shida is proving to be a good champion, though, and they keep signing or trialing interesting talent. Hopefully when the second show comes online, we'll be able to see more women's matches across the three programs (Dynamite, Dark & TBC), and they'll be able to get more proper feuds running. The men's side of the fence is in a good place - if they rein in some of the sillier/dangerous spots - so I'd like them to focus on the women's division in AEW Year 2.

 Sigur wrote:
"Bullet Club and Friends" - well, for once the Bullet Club's been the hottest thing in wrestling for the past years and most people have been in the US branch anyway (recently I heard SCU were in the Bullet Club at one point. I hadn't even known that.). And The Elite took the ball and ran away with it and painted it golden and called it AEW. So of course the Young Bucks, Omega, Page and Cody are at the core of anything at AEW. In fact they used Omega (in his role of "best singles wrestler in the world, etc.") pretty sparingly over the first year. But now things seem to pick up steam. Heel Bucks, Tweener Cleaner Omega, Distraught Face Hangman Page - this will be good.

Aye, the Big Five (Cody, Bucks, Omega, Page) have been pretty well-utilised over this first year, without doing too much to hog the spotlight. Yes, Cody as TNT Champion and Page/Omega as Tag champions has been a thing, but they've hardly been squashing opponents each time. I can't think of anyone who faced Cody for the TNT title that didn't come out of it looking good in defeat, for example, and he was able to bring eyes to talent you might not have thought of - and it is entirely possible that without wrestling him, neither Ricky Starks nor Eddie Kingston would now be signed to AEW.

 Sigur wrote:
Either way, the pandemic (and to a lesser degree AEW) forced WWE to be a bit bolder and more inventive, and that certainly can't be bad. NXT seems to be a bit less nice now that it's mainly used to counter-program AEW and running on tv now and all, but oh well. Still good (btw, Balor and Adam Cole both also have been in the Bullet Club as well of course.). All's well, lots of wrestling. Lots of good wrestling.

NXT has definitely suffered for being on TV, though I would imagine there are now more eyes on that product than there was when it was just on the Network. The sheer number of title matches - and title changes - outside of TakeOver events tells a story all of its own, especially if you compare to the previous year. I hope that their broadcast partner does push for an end to the Wednesday Night Wars, though, as NXT has (unsurprisingly) been doing better numbers on the nights when it isn't trying to counter AEW - I want to say by up to 200k, but I don't have the figures in front of me, so I'm going with a hazy memory

Agreed that WWE do seem more experimental due to COVID.

Highlight for me is the 24/7 hour championship. It’s just a chance for proper nonsense to go on. It’s silly, they know it’s silly, we know it’s silly, and provided it’s not allowed to get out of hand, a good laugh.

Reminds me of my heyday thoughts, when John Cena was Champ, and had an open challenge.

It really played to the crowd, and Cena’s strength. Contrast and compare to my favourite whipping boy Brock Lesnar, who only turns up once in a blue moon, and it made for a more dynamic show.

Finished up Summer Slam and most of the way through Payback.

Fiend angle continues to be lost on me. I dunno why, but it just isn’t landing quite right.

Otherwise both pretty decent shows. And always nice to see Randy Orton get slapped around. He’s a decent heel, which is why it’s enjoyable!

Some of that might be due to the fact that Bray, while good, is no Undertaker, in terms of size, mystique, cache, etc.

Some of it might be due to how inconsistently he's been booked, and wrecked, and built back up.

And some of it just might be that this style of 'gimmick' is from a bygone age, and doesn't work well anymore.

He also somehow looks shorter than he is?

Now. Apropos Roman’s heel turn?

He wears it well. Just wish they’d leaned into it earlier. Accept the Push to Face isn’t working, then a Heel Turn to really give the crowd someone to boo from the heart.

With crowd ill blood bled off? Let him show his genuine skill as a Wrassler. Face Turn as and when.

There was definitely a great opportunity to turn Roman heel after the WM where he beat the Untertaker - coming out to ~5 minutes of booing to deliver a one line promo really should've been a clue to Vince, y'know?

Indeed.

You have to play to the crowd.

The moment I knew the WWE Universe actually liked him, but objected to the way he was pushed?

When his leukaemia returned, and he did that vid. The crowd were genuinely bummed for it.

My kids love him. They're not sure how to handle the heel turn.

 bbb wrote:
My kids love him. They're not sure how to handle the heel turn.

This is something that we old grumps often overlook.

Roman is popular with younger viewers and he sells a lot of merchandise.

I think that this is potentially the best time for him to turn heel at this point due to the lack of a live crowd. If you had live audiences then I reckon he'd have been cheered when it was revealed that he was a heel out of sheer stubbornness from some who will refuse to do what they think the WWE want them to do with regards to Roman and relief that they finally pulled the trigger from others.

This way hopefully by the time the audiences come back he will established himself as a great vicious heel and will be able to get some great authentic reactions. I just hope WWE doesn't try to hotshot his face turn when they think they've got the audience playing along but really wait until they've got a perfect story set up for his redemption arc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

The moment I knew the WWE Universe actually liked him, but objected to the way he was pushed?

When his leukaemia returned, and he did that vid. The crowd were genuinely bummed for it.

Yeah. Joe Anoa'i is, by all accounts I've heard, a really nice guy. He's well respected by the other performers backstage, with some of them crediting him as being a major part of cutting out the hazing and bullying bs, and is reliable and solid in the ring.

The issue is that the WWE writing never let any of his actual personality, or even the personality he had developed during his time in The Shield, shine through in the scripts they gave him during that post-Shield run. They gave him, a performer who was still pretty green on the mic as his role in the Shield was the mostly quiet bruiser (which meant that when he did speak as a member of the Shield, it worked), lines that The Rock and 99-00 Mick Foley would have trouble getting over, and they were some of the best corny catchphrase slinging talkers in the business.

Keeping him in the Shield gear also didn't help. The smarky fans could see that the WWE were just trying to basically transfer all of the Shield's heat onto him by having him keep the gimmick (the clothing, the entrance theme etc.) whilst the other two developed their own style. And it wastes his physique. The guy has been in incredible shape look-wise his whole career. Flaunt that gak!

I think Little Kuriboh does a really good job of examining the issues which caused the Roman Reigns problem in this video from three years ago (I also very much recommend the entire Mark Remark video series for anyone who wants to have a nostalgic laugh about 2015-WM34 WWE):


One of the things he brings up with regards to why turning Roman heel might not have been the fix that people thought it would be was due to the babyface situation at the time. Basically, if they turned him heel years ago then the issue would be a lack of babyfaces who could match his level of heat. Basically it would have created a situation similar to the Austin heel turn at WM 17, where your top guy leaves a big vacuum when they turn heel and if you do not have someone to fill that vacuum then you can end up with your storylines massively stalling. Thankfully they've managed to do a better job of building up some faces who can fill that gap now.

In terms of him being an excellent person?

Rumour has it he chinned Enzo Amore when he got out his pram. That’s reason enough.

There was also a promo shoot for his feud with Bray Wyatt, which showed him having a tea party with his daughter.

Many of my lady friends fancied him anyway (and who can blame them?). I shared that, and it was as if a million ovaries cried out in adulation.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Thankfully they've managed to do a better job of building up some faces who can fill that gap now.

Erm - [CITATION REQUIRED]?

As a general rule, WWE are terrible at building babyfaces, particularly in the men's division. On SmackDown I can only really think of three groups or singles acts - Heavy Machinery, The New Day (2/3 of whom are injured at the minute) and Jeff Hardy, though it looks liek they may be turning Bray and The Fiend face, which baffles me.

RAW is in a slightly better position, with Drew, Keith Lee, KO (I think?) and both Mysterio generations, but then you're deep into the mid-card before you run into the likes of Apollo Crews (despite his US title run). NXT is in such a bad position that there wasn't even a face in the recent 4-way match for the NXT title!

Vince does a great job of turning faces heel, and giving heels some degree of motivation (usually *cough*Aleister Black*cough*). He is awful at building faces, especially those that don't get crammed into the Cena/Reigns mold.

I'd also love to know which tag team touched him in a bad place back in the day, given how much he seems to enjoy breaking tag teams up and under-utilising the tag divisions.

I feel that NXT is more fluid in terms of face and heel dynamics.

I put it down to HHH literally running the show. He was both during WWE’s heyday, and has clearly picked up on the gubbins that drive such things.

Been a while since anyone had anything to say in this thread, but this seems like a nice way to bring it back.

Shayna Baszler was on Up Up Down Down today and talked about Warhammer a bunch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhIWr3FZ0Nw&feature=youtu.be

 Dysartes wrote:

 Sigur wrote:
Didn't she use the Mandible Claw on Smackdown? So it might be the way things are going. Which I'm all okay with. Alexa Bliss has been great with any role she's been given so far (being ten times better a heel than a face of course). She could pull it off.

Not sure about the Claw - though the Fiend did use that on her - but she did hit Nikki Cross with Sister Abigail on the last SD, before wandering away from the 4-way match in a trance...

 Sigur wrote:
As for women's wrestling in WWE on the whole - I absolute agree with what's been said above. It's consistent (mainly), entertaining, and mostly not very embarassing to watch. I love how they actually took time with the Bayley/Sasha storyline and they finally get the story they deserve. Asuka has been consistently great for the past months, carrying large chunks of the raw women's roster. The whole Becky Lynch thing has been really good as well before. Splitting up the IIconics was rather sad to see, but oh well.

There's been some good work at the top end of the card, but they could really do with getting some mid-card feuds working better. It often feels like you have the [BRAND] Championship, and no-one else is really doing anything. And thanks to Vince being Vince, there's still a number of cringeworthy storylines around the women - I give you the "Let's cuck Rusev!" story, for the most recent big example.

 Sigur wrote:
Now as for AEW: Well. The ex-WWE people of course stick out and probably are a bit of a requirement in the beginning. And truth be told - I love watching Jon Moxley. Liked him in WWE, loved him in NJPW and AEW. Great promo, good wrestler, great champion. They do build their own people too though. MJF is great at everything. Sammy Guevara is a tip top level twerp. Britt Baker got a TON better, even though I'm still not a big fan. It'll take 10 horses to make me a fan of Darby Allin, but people seem to like him. And so on.

Given how many people WWE have had on their roster over the years, it's a bit tricky to not hire ex-WWE guys. Hell, Kenny Omega wrestled for them (briefly) at one point.

Mox is definitely doing better now he doesn't have to be wacky. Jericho has been gold for them, he really has. Dustin Rhodes is still a Natural.

The not-WWE wrestlers they're developing are going to take time, so it isn't surprising the first year has leaned on ex-WWE peeps so much - if you've not been used to TV-style wrestling, that's something you need to train for and get used to, which is why Dark is so handy. I'd add Orange Cassidy, Best Friends and Jurassic Express as wrestlers or teams from outside WWE that seem to have flourished within the first year of AEW.

 Sigur wrote:
Yeah, the women's division is a bit of a problem (especially in comparison to the great work WWE's been doing for the most part on the women's division), but Hikaru Shida is a really good champion, they got Diamante now, I think there's huge potential in Abaddon. Can't wait to see Yuka Sakasaki back once travelling gets easier, I really like Shanna, and if they get Thunder Rosa to work for them some more that would be great.

They definitely messed up the booking to start with, and then just when they were getting back on track both Britt Baker and Kris Statlander got injured - and given COVID disruption meant certain Japanese talent couldn't come back, it left the division a bit stretched. Shida is proving to be a good champion, though, and they keep signing or trialing interesting talent. Hopefully when the second show comes online, we'll be able to see more women's matches across the three programs (Dynamite, Dark & TBC), and they'll be able to get more proper feuds running. The men's side of the fence is in a good place - if they rein in some of the sillier/dangerous spots - so I'd like them to focus on the women's division in AEW Year 2.

 Sigur wrote:
"Bullet Club and Friends" - well, for once the Bullet Club's been the hottest thing in wrestling for the past years and most people have been in the US branch anyway (recently I heard SCU were in the Bullet Club at one point. I hadn't even known that.). And The Elite took the ball and ran away with it and painted it golden and called it AEW. So of course the Young Bucks, Omega, Page and Cody are at the core of anything at AEW. In fact they used Omega (in his role of "best singles wrestler in the world, etc.") pretty sparingly over the first year. But now things seem to pick up steam. Heel Bucks, Tweener Cleaner Omega, Distraught Face Hangman Page - this will be good.

Aye, the Big Five (Cody, Bucks, Omega, Page) have been pretty well-utilised over this first year, without doing too much to hog the spotlight. Yes, Cody as TNT Champion and Page/Omega as Tag champions has been a thing, but they've hardly been squashing opponents each time. I can't think of anyone who faced Cody for the TNT title that didn't come out of it looking good in defeat, for example, and he was able to bring eyes to talent you might not have thought of - and it is entirely possible that without wrestling him, neither Ricky Starks nor Eddie Kingston would now be signed to AEW.

 Sigur wrote:
Either way, the pandemic (and to a lesser degree AEW) forced WWE to be a bit bolder and more inventive, and that certainly can't be bad. NXT seems to be a bit less nice now that it's mainly used to counter-program AEW and running on tv now and all, but oh well. Still good (btw, Balor and Adam Cole both also have been in the Bullet Club as well of course.). All's well, lots of wrestling. Lots of good wrestling.

NXT has definitely suffered for being on TV, though I would imagine there are now more eyes on that product than there was when it was just on the Network. The sheer number of title matches - and title changes - outside of TakeOver events tells a story all of its own, especially if you compare to the previous year. I hope that their broadcast partner does push for an end to the Wednesday Night Wars, though, as NXT has (unsurprisingly) been doing better numbers on the nights when it isn't trying to counter AEW - I want to say by up to 200k, but I don't have the figures in front of me, so I'm going with a hazy memory

.) Fiendish Alexa Bliss: Right you are about the Claw vs. Sister Abigail. That's what I get for not actually watching RAW but watching youtubers talk about it. She is doing a good job though, isn't she. But then she's doing a good job at everything.

.) WWE Women's Mid-Card: True that. What happened to Mandy Rose? Did they fire the writer who was in charge of the Otis/Rose Story? Now she's back to being "one of the WWE blondes" again and basically indistinguishable from the others. Also: Splitting up the IIconics. The ONLY proper tag team they had. And say what you want about Nia Jax (whom I don't find horrible) - her and Baszler are an okay tag team. At least Baszler gets to do something, which is always good. Because she's cool to the bones.But yeah, otherwise - no tag teams at all, right? Sure, there's the Riot Squad. Hahahahahahaha. Ruby Riott and the one that said she'd change and then showed up as "one of the WWE blondes". Fire&Desire were okay as well (due to Sonya Deville), but those are gone too.

.) Ex-WWE guys: Absolutely agree with you there. WWE's been buying talent left and right for years, impossible (and also it would be silly) not to pick any of them up. And in time WWE will pick up ex-AEW guys too in a few years. Things will get rather fluent I think.

.) AEW women's roster: Yeah, they just had a smaller roster to begin with, lots of international talent, so COVID hit hard. I'd love to see Shanna again. I think she's good. Possibly just because she's from a not-traditionally-well-known-wrestling-country-in-Europe. Shida is still a good champ. Tomorrow she's up against Nyla Rose again. It'll be OK, Shida will keep on being a good champ. And Kris Statlander's good to return soon! She's big and cool. I'm still not a huge fan of Britt Baker. I know she's kinda chosen to be the top heel of the women's roster, but...eeeehh..... I think I'd prefer to see a bad-ass kind of character in that role? (somebody who isn't Nyla Rose, mind you) I don't know.

.) Cody's TNT open challenge: Absoplutely agree again. Everything they use Cody for is so well thought out, isn't it.

.) NXT: Still haven't watched it again I have to admit. I don't even watch the Takeovers any more as they're more all over the place rather than before the big four, which kinda sucks.



@bbb: I do like me some UpUpDownDown, and I do like Shayna Baszler. The Warhammer thing I can take or leave. Just kidding, just kidding. I bought a bloody space marine puppet the other week.


Roight, AEW Full Gear tomorrow!

Here's my predictions:
AEW World Championship: Jon Moxley (c) vs. Eddie Kingston in an I Quit Match. I say Jon Moxley retains. Despite CERTAIN youtubers having put a flea in my ear about Kingston winning. Which would be amazing, but I just don't see it. Also - I need a face champion for my awesomely creative booking plans for AEW to go on.

AEW Women's World Championship: Hikaru Shida (c) vs. Nyla Rose. Shida retains. She's a perfectly OK champion, which Nyla Rose is not. Rose has Vickie Guerrero, that's good enough. Shida can go on doing better things with Thunder Rosa, Britt Baker (who then can go on feuding with Kris Statlander).

AEW TNT Championship: Cody (c) vs. Darby Allin. I don't care for Darby Allin. I don't get the appeal. I listened to the Talk is Jericho podcast episode which usually helps me getting behind a wrestler. Did not work for me. Of course he does great, athletic stuff and all. ANYWAY. I think that Darby Allin wins this, despite me being old and 'not getting it'. I think to AEW he's one of the top talents they wanna build up, and this will be the stepping stone.

AEW World Tag Team Championship: FTR(c) vs. The Young Bucks (if the Bucks lose they'll never go for the tag titles again). Interesting stipulation, isn't it. That's why I can't see the Young Bucks losing. They can't have that on Cody AND the Bucks. They'll win by evil means. I'm not sure i'm 100% behind the Young Bucks heel turn, because even in being heels they're always funny and cool and smart and all.

Number One Contender Match for AEW World Championship: Kenny Omega vs. Hangman Adam Page. Ooooooh, what a lovely story. Everybody loves Hangman Page, right? Yes, I thought so. Kenny Omega will win (and for that alone i need Moxley to retain, so he can face ...a face). He must win. He's Kenny bloody Omega and eversince AEW started he's been in a slump. The Tag Team stuff was good, but what we need is a Kenny Omega singles run. And he needs to dress more properly too. No more t-shirts and horrible shorts and all of that stuff.

Elite Deletion: Matt Hardy vs. Sammy Guevara. This will be interesting, won't it. Hard to say who will win this one. Not sureit matters that much either. It will end this weird feud, it will further Sammy Guevara's storyline and probably character, so it might even end in a double count out or KO or something like that. If one match is pre-taped then it's this. Probably will be, simply due to the scary last match.

Singles Match: Chris Jericho vs. MJF. MJF wins, leading to upheaval among the Inner circle and possibly a split of the faction.

Singles Match: Orange Cassidy vs. John Silver. Erm. Yeah. Meh. Cassidy wins. It'll be a palett cleanser, won't it. I see what John Silver does for the company, but I'm not a big fan of the character. Well, maybe they'll do something with the Dark Order. That would be nice. I think there's a lot of potential there (TONS with Evil Uno and Cabana. Silver and his pals are just for comedy bits on BTE).


Pre-Show:
NWA World Women's Championship: Serena Deeb (c) vs. Allysin Kay. Why is this not on the main card, but Cassidy/Silver is? Oh well. Serena Deeb retains. No title change on the pre-show.



This will be good, won't it. Very much looking forward to it. The last PPV wasn't that well received (personally I liked it, but The Internet tends to get screamy about ONE thing... okay, thinking about it there were some thigs I didn't enjoy that much about the show [lke Darby Allin], but oh well), so they'll put in extra work and make this really good.

Here's another thought before I go to bed: About the pandemic one of the things that annoys me the most (apart from a deadly pandemic sweeping the globe of course) is no crowds at wrestling shows. And not being able to attend wrestling shows. Not that I visited many before. Not that there are that many 'round here. But still. Things will get better. Starting tomorrow, with AEW Full Gear! Wahey!

Well, that was a great PPV. Loved it.

I haven't caught Full Gear yet but your predictions seem pretty solid. Really looking forward to the Moxley Kingston fight.

Personally I hope this is the last we see of Heel Bucks. Their recent promos have been excruciatingly bad and I think AEW need a top face team right now.
Think about it who are we supposed to cheer for atm? Best Friends? The Jungle Goofs? Dustin and the other guy? They are really scraping the barrel.

On the heel side there are some great teams for Young Bucks to feud with as faces.

 Kroem wrote:
I haven't caught Full Gear yet but your predictions seem pretty solid. Really looking forward to the Moxley Kingston fight.

Personally I hope this is the last we see of Heel Bucks. Their recent promos have been excruciatingly bad and I think AEW need a top face team right now.
Think about it who are we supposed to cheer for atm? Best Friends? The Jungle Goofs? Dustin and the other guy? They are really scraping the barrel.

On the heel side there are some great teams for Young Bucks to feud with as faces.

Yeah, that's a good point. In the promo package aired on Full Gear they summarized the story a little, and it makes a bit more sense, but still a bit odd on the Bucks' side. Maybe they just wanted 'classic Young Bucks' for this match, and this means cocky Heel bucks. Maybe with basically all of the Elite turning heel they'll try to push younger guys as faces. Private Party, Jungle Express (these guys are funny. Very much dislike how Marco Stunt is used. That's a heel thing, bringing a third guy who intervenes in matches, right? I'm also not willing to be behind the guy just because he's small. I'm so-so on Jungleboy. He does impressive things, sure. But oh well. Big fan of Luchasaurus, as everybody is. Wish they just wouldn't make dinosaur jokes. He's a big dude in a cool mask who does athlethic things. Should be enough.), and.... err... I'm sure they'll come up with something. Don't get me started on the Nightmare Family. Well, that's harsh. Dustin Rhodes is amazing for his age. Not a fan of QT Marshal, not a fan of the Ally storyline (which seems to have beeing 80% on Dark anyway). To me QT Marshal is along the lines of any librarian, Brandon Cutler, etc. .... the bits of AEW I'll probably skip.

Your point of 'who are we to cheer?' is a very good one though. I'm not sure how soon the Bucks are turned face again (I'm suspecting them to be more like tweeners for a long time now, at the very least until there's a resolution to the Hangman Page story, which is amazing). At least we got the Best Friends. There's WAY worse face tag team options out there. Oh, and we got SCU! Those guys are great. Every single one of them. I guess Christopher Daniels is doing less and less in the ring now, but Scorpio Sky and Frankie Kazarian are tip top. Always love seeing them.


Aanyway, I hope you'll enjoy Full Gear. Certainly my favourite PPV of the year from beginning to end. Unless Survivor Series turns out amazing. Which I doubt. I'm not a fan of the artificial 'brand warfare', which means nothing. I do like a SuSe elimination match though. Oh well, let's see.

Has anyone been able to get in to the Thunderdome? I've tried for weeks, but every time I try to log in I get told that it is full. I'm hoping tonight works since my call time is 7:45, which is the earliest I've gotten yet. My kids were extremely disappointed when we couldn't get in the first time. Since then I've kept trying, but not telling them so as to keep their disappointment down.

I'm on the wrong side of the Atlantic to try, bbb.

@bbb: Hope you get in there eventually!

@Dysartes: I think they accept everybody. Inhumane time of the day aside of course.


Well, Dynamite was interesting this week. Starting on a ghastly low, on to a weirdly extreme match, on to really good stuff in the end.

Yeah, Siggy, the time was my issue with it.

Chelsea Green was unlucky in her SmackDown in-ring debut (I think) last night.

And Zelina Vega getting released seemed to come out of the blue. I reckon Mr. Black won't be too impressed by that.

 Dysartes wrote:
Yeah, Siggy, the time was my issue with it.

Chelsea Green was unlucky in her SmackDown in-ring debut (I think) last night.

And Zelina Vega getting released seemed to come out of the blue. I reckon Mr. Black won't be too impressed by that.

Mmm, came just after she posted something on twitter about unionisation apparently. Though apparently she said to her fans on a twitch stream or something that she asked for her release (allegedly, haven't seen the stream myself and others are saying she didn't say that so who knows?).

Saw a post on r/SquaredCircle about Black asking to be sent back to NXT. Can't blame him, to be honest. He has been massively underutilised on the "main roster". Plus, in NXT with Finn Balor? That right there is a dream match. Would also make for a killer tag team.

Oooh...a Balor/Black Tag Team would be awesome!

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Mmm, came just after she posted something on twitter about unionisation apparently. Though apparently she said to her fans on a twitch stream or something that she asked for her release (allegedly, haven't seen the stream myself and others are saying she didn't say that so who knows?).

Given the time difference between her unionisation tweet and the one from WWE about her being released, I'm fairly confident she'd been told she was being released by the time she made her tweet, and was just a bit quicker off the draw than WWE were.

Zelina was one of the highlights of Covid-era WWE Raw.

I was disappointed when they moved her to singles competition, because as good as she is on the mic and as talented as she is in the ring, I had a hard time finding any of her offense believable because of how small she is. Whenever I saw her throw a punch, it just didn't come off as threatening.

Caught up with Full Gear at the weekend, I think all the main matches were good-great and definitely some surprising results in there!

The Mox - Kingston match... wow that was an absolute war!

@Aleister Black going to NXT:
Oh yes. Pretty much anything but what's happening to him on the main roster right now. I got this weird thing about Mr.Black - I don't really care that much about him or the gimmick (be it Aleister Black Satanist, Aleister Black "working man's hero" [lololololololoololololololololl], Aleister Black sitting in his room, etc.), but once he gets in the ring I always find him to be really good. Yeah, put him on NXT, or even Main Event. Ever since i saw Ricochet over there and the absurdity of this situation somehow I started digging the idea of putting the really good people Vince doesn't care about on Main Event, make it a super workrate-y smarkshow and hope Vince never notices.

@Kroem: Aye, what a show!

Zelina (Aleister's wife) apparently made more on Twitch then she did with WWE...

Aleister's request to move back to NXT (and away from Vince's "Creative" control) has, apparently, been denied...

So, how many weeks in a row will Aleister be put through the announcer's desk?

 bbb wrote:
So, how many weeks in a row will Aleister be put through the announcer's desk?

Saving on 'independent contractor' salaties to afford more tables to put their spouses through each week.....

I've been catching up on some NXT UK stuff, which is probably actually the WWE product that I enjoy the most.

Just watched WALTER vs Ilja Dragunov on the 29th October episode for the NXT UK Champonship. Holy hell it was a great match. Just pure, no frills, old-school style hard hitting wrestling with two people beating the absolute tar out of each other, which their chests and backs testify to by the end. If you have the Network then definitely check it out, it earned its 5-star rating from Meltzer. If you don't then you can watch it on the WWE youtube channel with some commentary from HBK, Drew, Sheamus, Cesaro, Regal and some others.

On that note, I think WALTER has solidly secured his position again as my favourite wrestler currently working (first taking that spot with his match against Tyler Bate at Takeover Cardiff last year). He isn't flashy, his work doesn't flow seamlessly from one move to another in fluid chains or anything like that. He is slow, methodical and brutal. He just hits you, and slams you, and then keeps on hitting you until you cannot stand up and then he does it some more. He is a heel that would work in literally any era of wrestling.

Delving into AEW for the first time. Mostly because I always forget I can watch it on ITV Hub (can’t get live TV through the aerial where I live)

Thanks for the hint; I still have to watch that match.

Yeah, there aren't many wrestlers from Austria who 'make it big', but if they do it's good'uns. I also find Walter's approach (not wanting to go to the US despite the offer) really nice. Last fall I attended a WWE house show here in Vienna. Overall it was a very 'meh' experience (and expensive). I was with friends who in part don't care much for 'rasslin' at all or at least are completely unfamiliar with the 'current product'. So that didn't help either. On a Monday, so barely any drinking, I feel rather silly for liking wrestling anyway, even more so when watching a WWE live show. Tons of people and all of that, so-so audience (lots of awkward silence), BUT they brought out Walter, who got a pretty big pop. So that was cool. Heel-Bayley ragged a bit on him too later that night, because she's good at being a baddie. Caesaro also got a lot of applause, because a.) peeps in Vienna probably are in large parts aware that he's a really good talker in German [and in English, if they gave him any lines!] and b.) he's a good'un in general, isn't he. The funny thing was that this was during the time Shorty G just had become a thing, and the story of the whole evening was getting him over.

It was a weird experience. First time watching WWE live, third time watching live wrestling. To be honest I'll take any indies show (even the ones who don't have a ring) over a thing that big and on a bloody MONDAY. The Revival did the Young Bucks pose, which was nice, but the audience didn't pick up on it. There was a tiny little cluster of people who boo'd Roman Reigns and shouted S-C-UUUUU at some points, but it really was minor incidents and kinda half-arsed too.

Oh well. I miss live wrestling. Anyway, time to watch Talk'n'Shop-a-Mania and then Walter-Dragunov.



@Mad Doc Grotsnik: Enjoy.

I only started watching wrestling again after a 15ish year break when Smackdown came to Fox. Cesaro was unknown to me, but, man, do I now love me some Cesaro.

 bbb wrote:
I only started watching wrestling again after a 15ish year break when Smackdown came to Fox. Cesaro was unknown to me, but, man, do I now love me some Cesaro.

Absolutely. When I started watching wrestling in 2015 he used to record a segment especially for German TV in which he told a bad joke or held a little promo in German each week on RAW.

 bbb wrote:
So, how many weeks in a row will Aleister be put through the announcer's desk?

Ha!

...and probably quite true...

Also, Zelina was, apparently, fired for opening up an...OnlyFans account!

FINALLY got in the Thunderdome last night. Kids were thrilled. We're going to watch it again tonight to see if we can find ourselves.

@Alpharius: Aye, I heard. So I assume she either knew she'd get fired or she was really pushing for that. Maybe for laudable reasons (shedding light on unionizing).

 bbb wrote:
FINALLY got in the Thunderdome last night. Kids were thrilled. We're going to watch it again tonight to see if we can find ourselves.

wahey! Cool. How was the whole thing? do you get a confirmation e-mail and then there's a little warm-up/briefing session?

When you sign up you get an email with a call-in time. Then they send you an email with recommendations for getting having the best experience (connect from a computer that is connected to web from ethernet, good lighting, dress appropriately, etc.). Then the day of the show you get an email reminder with your call-in time.

For weeks I've been signing up, but everytime I've clicked the link to connect at the call-in time I get a message saying the Thunderdome is full. This time I clicked on 1 minute before my time and got the full message. I tried it again 1 minute later and got in.

They give you WWE promos and ads during commercials and have a host who is promoting you to be energetic and cheer for the faces and boo the heels. Occasionally they'll say specific things like, "you need to wear a shirt, and another time they were telling a guy to set his phone on a surface so it was steady.

I assume signs are a no-no? I also heard they had to remind people not to eat on camera while the show is on too.

 Sigur wrote:
Thanks for the hint; I still have to watch that match.

I'd love to hear your thoughts as there was quite a bit of talking between the two throughout the match in German which I've heard was some great smack talk, including one particular exchange which was apparently (translation from a youtube comment) something like:

WALTER: "Do I have to kill you?"
Dragunov: "You will not manage to"

WWE needs to get subs on the match or get someone on commentary who speaks german to relay that kind of thing to non-german speaking viewers in any future match between these two because that kind of exchange is incredible storytelling and is wonderful character building for Dragunov.

Wait Cesaro is German?! I just assumed he was Portuguese or something from his name XD

Walter vs Duganov was great, it just goes to show the death of kayfabe doesn't mean that a seriously presented match can't get over with the fans

@MDG I think now is a bad to start watching AEW, it's hard to get into things without crowds if you're not already invested in the storylines.
However it being free on ITV is great and I hope you enjoy it.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Sigur wrote:
Thanks for the hint; I still have to watch that match.

I'd love to hear your thoughts as there was quite a bit of talking between the two throughout the match in German which I've heard was some great smack talk, including one particular exchange which was apparently (translation from a youtube comment) something like:

WALTER: "Do I have to kill you?"
Dragunov: "You will not manage to"

WWE needs to get subs on the match or get someone on commentary who speaks german to relay that kind of thing to non-german speaking viewers in any future match between these two because that kind of exchange is incredible storytelling and is wonderful character building for Dragunov.

Watched the match now. Ho-lee cow. The recommendations did not come unwarranted. That was something else.

As for the talking during the match - maybe I missed something, but it wasn't that much and pretty much standard non-comedic wrestlers-talking-during-matches stuff. As far as I understood especially during the first half of the match Dragunov mostly used some Russian phrases, lateron mostly saying "du schaffst mich nicht" or "du schlägst mich nicht" (you won't beat me). Which in the end was a bit comical when he was lying on the ground after the splash from the top rope, saying "du schlägst mich nicht" ("you won't beat me", but also "you won't hit/punch me"), followed by Walter just raning down slaps and elbows on him.

Either way - thanks for the suggestion. I think I only watched the first episode of NXT UK before, but this might be a good option for a go-to tv show when it comes to WWE. Somehow I stopped following even NXT completely.

 Kroem wrote:
Wait Cesaro is German?! I just assumed he was Portuguese or something from his name XD

Walter vs Duganov was great, it just goes to show the death of kayfabe doesn't mean that a seriously presented match can't get over with the fans

@MDG I think now is a bad to start watching AEW, it's hard to get into things without crowds if you're not already invested in the storylines.
However it being free on ITV is great and I hope you enjoy it.

He's Swiss, but he speaks several languages.

 Kroem wrote:
Wait Cesaro is German?! I just assumed he was Portuguese or something from his name XD

Cesaro is Swiss


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sigur wrote:


As for the talking during the match - maybe I missed something, but it wasn't that much and pretty much standard non-comedic wrestlers-talking-during-matches stuff. As far as I understood especially during the first half of the match Dragunov mostly used some Russian phrases, lateron mostly saying "du schaffst mich nicht" or "du schlägst mich nicht" (you won't beat me). Which in the end was a bit comical when he was lying on the ground after the splash from the top rope, saying "du schlägst mich nicht" ("you won't beat me", but also "you won't hit/punch me"), followed by Walter just raning down slaps and elbows on him.

Ah, fair enough.

Either way - thanks for the suggestion. I think I only watched the first episode of NXT UK before, but this might be a good option for a go-to tv show when it comes to WWE. Somehow I stopped following even NXT completely.

Definitely check out Takeover Cardiff from 2019 as well. You have Cesaro vs Dragunov which was pretty good, the Tag Team triple threat was really good, the women's title match was okay, Mastiff vs Coffey was okay, and then you get to WALTER vs Tyler Bate and realise there is still around an hour left of the show. That match was absolutely fantastic. They had the crowd in the palm of their hands the whole way through, even managing to make a live audience mark out to a vertical suplex in 2019

 bbb wrote:

 Kroem wrote:
Wait Cesaro is German?! I just assumed he was Portuguese or something from his name XD

Walter vs Duganov was great, it just goes to show the death of kayfabe doesn't mean that a seriously presented match can't get over with the fans

@MDG I think now is a bad to start watching AEW, it's hard to get into things without crowds if you're not already invested in the storylines.
However it being free on ITV is great and I hope you enjoy it.

He's Swiss, but he speaks several languages.

A good thing, given he's the Swiss Superman...

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Definitely check out Takeover Cardiff from 2019 as well. You have Cesaro vs Dragunov which was pretty good, the Tag Team triple threat was really good, the women's title match was okay, Mastiff vs Coffey was okay, and then you get to WALTER vs Tyler Bate and realise there is still around an hour left of the show. That match was absolutely fantastic. They had the crowd in the palm of their hands the whole way through, even managing to make a live audience mark out to a vertical suplex in 2019

Cesaro vs. Dragunov? I'm in. I think I saw Walter vs. Pete Dunne on Takeover:New York. That was good already.

@Dysartes: Nono, he's a baddie right now, so he's the Swiss Cyborg!

Yeah, Cesaro is said to be one of those people who's just good at everything. AND he suffered the nastiest injury I ever saw on TV. AND he tore the beach ball apart. You gotta love him.

Got in the Thunderdome again tonight! AND got on screen multiple times. Kids were thrilled.

 Sigur wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Definitely check out Takeover Cardiff from 2019 as well. You have Cesaro vs Dragunov which was pretty good, the Tag Team triple threat was really good, the women's title match was okay, Mastiff vs Coffey was okay, and then you get to WALTER vs Tyler Bate and realise there is still around an hour left of the show. That match was absolutely fantastic. They had the crowd in the palm of their hands the whole way through, even managing to make a live audience mark out to a vertical suplex in 2019

Cesaro vs. Dragunov? I'm in. I think I saw Walter vs. Pete Dunne on Takeover:New York. That was good already.

@Dysartes: Nono, he's a baddie right now, so he's the Swiss Cyborg!

Yeah, Cesaro is said to be one of those people who's just good at everything. AND he suffered the nastiest injury I ever saw on TV. AND he tore the beach ball apart. You gotta love him.

Just a shame they partnered him with Sheamus, really.

Not a fan of Da Bar, Mad Doc?

I like Shaemus. As a babyface a few years ago he was bland, but as a baddie he's a good'un. Right now I find his attire to be odd to say the least, but I think overall he's a good addition to the roster.

I've come to the conclusion that it is harder to get yourself over as a babyface than it is as a heel, especially in this cynical age!

 Kroem wrote:
I've come to the conclusion that it is harder to get yourself over as a babyface than it is as a heel, especially in this cynical age!

It's often more obvious to be a prick than not be a prick - but in the case of WWE, I think their writing/presentation of babyfaces really doesn't help matters.

NXT is better than the main brands for this, but I'm not sure how much.

I mean, look at RAW & SD at the moment - aside from Drew, The New Day and possibly Daniel Bryan, who would you say are well-presented babyfaces? Then look at the heel side of the equation...

Heck, reports indicate they think what they've been doing with Lana the last couple of months is a way to turn her into a sympathetic babyface... by putting her through the announce table repeatedly. On the upside, that's a streak that may now have been broken.

Compare and contrast to AEW, which definitely seems to be a bit more organic in terms of face/heel dynamics. While it is hard to say who is truly over without fans being properly present, you've got the likes of Jon Moxley, Cody Rhodes, Best Friends, Darby Allen, Orange Cassidy and Jurassic Express - just off the top of my head - as babyfaces who've gotten themselves over. Some of them are still developing, sure, but it is an area I'd say AEW do better than WWE.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Kroem wrote:
I've come to the conclusion that it is harder to get yourself over as a babyface than it is as a heel, especially in this cynical age!

It's often more obvious to be a prick than not be a prick - but in the case of WWE, I think their writing/presentation of babyfaces really doesn't help matters.

Indeed. Especially since WWE often try to get their faces over by having them act like overwritten pricks spouting catchphrases and getting a bad nickname bolted to them.



Survivor Series! I just couldn't get into it and I'm not a fan of the Survivor Series concept on the whole, so skipped through most of the show, which probably is the worst way of watching a wrestling ppv. I do like the elimination matches as a stipulation, but the brand supremacy thing is just beyond stupid (reminds me of online arguments between people who play 40k and people who play 30k.). Last year's SuSe was a bit more interesting due to NXT being thrown into the mix, so at least at some points there was someone to root for.

Anyway. Meh. I just wasn't in the mood, I suppose.

 Dysartes wrote:
I mean, look at RAW & SD at the moment - aside from Drew, The New Day and possibly Daniel Bryan, who would you say are well-presented babyfaces? Then look at the heel side of the equation...

Street Profits, Bianca Belair, Lucha House Party, Rey Mysterio & Dominik, Humberto Carillo, Jeff Hardy, Naomi, Nikki Cross, Matt Riddle, Apollo Crews

That's the best I can do based on looking over the current Raw and Smackdown rosters.

Well-presented trips up a few of them, to my mind...

- Lucha House Party - Last I saw them were doing some sort of mini-break-up angle, and tend to suffer from being Punching Bag #4 in a tag feud.
- Humberto Carillo - Been off-screen for some time, and I can't recall the last match he won. Definitely shown to be a babyface, but currently not a competent one.
- Naomi - Definitely a face, but where is she?

I'll give you the Steet Profits, Rey/Dominik, Jeff and Apollo - after last night, I'm not sure whether Nikki is meant to be face or tweener.

Mr Riddle may well get back to "well-presented" with another big win or two, while I need to see how Bianca plays out on SD - the vignettes have been good, but she needs more matches (and more wins).

I'd agree that Cody and Moxley have been put over really well through their feuds and promos, I don't know how well AEW has done building other baby faces though.

Scorpio Sky was put over really well in the tag team tournament but has just been left on Dark since then.
Darby Allen is definitely over, almost in spite of Tony Khans booking it seems! I really liked his match with Sammy so we'll see how he goes as TNT champion.
Jungle Boy has got some good attention intermittently but nothing consistent.

Brian Pillman Jr could be great as a babyface if he got a push I reckon. Actually the booking on Dark seems to be a bit more logical and consistent than on Dynamite haha!

@Dysartes: Yeah, I feel the same about the three you mentioned. Dominik I think at this point is a great natural babyface. He's got the legacy, he's young, he seems to work well in the ring. Jeff Hardy will always be over. We could throw him out of a plane over Antarctica, before he hits the ground (after a swanton, presumably) penguins would have started making signs in support of him. I have no idea how they could salvage Apollo Crews. He's such a great athlete, he seems nice, and that's it really. Smiling, mega athletic guy. They should put him in a tag team with Shaemus or something. I don't know why, but somehow I think that putting someone in a tag team with Shaemus is a good idea to get them over. I don't even know what's going on with the Nikki Cross/Alexa Bliss angle any more. The former seems a little bit lost and relegated to being "Alexa's unremarkable friend". Alexa Bliss is good in any role.

@Kroem: Good point. I think the AEW audience is a little bit different, or at least is treated a bit different by AEW. They seem to take much more into account what (character) work the person's done elsewhere. I think that they could get Scorpio Sky out at any moment and turn him into a mega babyface. Darby Allin is very much over as a face (in spite of what I think of him! ), Jungle Boy is a natural babyface, Luchasaurus is mega over any time he shows up, Brian Pillman Jr. is a very good call too. Kris Statlander will be back in a bit, and back to being a much-becheer'd babyface, Hikaru Shida is a rock-solid face I think, Thunder Rosa could be an AEW face if she sticks with the company, Orange Cassidy is one of the top faces of the company right now I'd say. At this point Pac, the Lucha Brothers AND even Eddie Kingston are somewhat faces too, right? (not having watched last night's Dynamite yet. ). And just wait until international travel is up again and Yuka Sakazaki returns and finally gets that feud with that nasty, no-good, friend-shoving Riho!

I think AEW are pushing for another show or something (or am I confusing that with NXT? Or both?) I think, which should help shed some light on the less used people on the roster.


edit: Almost forgot about Hangman Page! In the Bullet Club he was quite 'meh', in AEW he's being built up to a great character. Between "I'm a f-ing horse!", splitting from The Elite, the whole Kenny Omega story, the drinking and the self-doubt it's impossible not to like him. Also: Is John Silver a heel at all? I can't even tell.

AEW have an agreement with TNT for a second show a week, running for one hour - at this point, I'm assuming no 2020 debut for it, for obvious reasons.

Night is unknown, but Tony Khan and Cody (I think) have both said it won't just be Dark moving from YouTube to TV.

 Sigur wrote:

@Kroem: Good point. I think the AEW audience is a little bit different, or at least is treated a bit different by AEW. They seem to take much more into account what (character) work the person's done elsewhere...

I think you're right, there is almost an expectation that people will be watching Dark, BTE, listening the their podcasts, following them on twitter etc.
As a person who primarily just watches Dynamite, things tend to pop out of nowhere!

The new programme from AEW sounds interesting, I wonder how they will differentiate it from Dynamite and Dark.

 Kroem wrote:

 Sigur wrote:

@Kroem: Good point. I think the AEW audience is a little bit different, or at least is treated a bit different by AEW. They seem to take much more into account what (character) work the person's done elsewhere...

I think you're right, there is almost an expectation that people will be watching Dark, BTE, listening the their podcasts, following them on twitter etc.
As a person who primarily just watches Dynamite, things tend to pop out of nowhere!
...

Yeah, that too. Funny thing is that I stopped watching BTE for a while when Dynamite started. Recently started watching again, but I mostly click through it, because I don't care all that much for the youtuber stuff and increasingly large chunks of the humour. Or Brian Cutler. Or the Dark Order being funny.

What I meant more was that AEW know their fans are familiar with the wrestlers outside of AEW. They know about Bullet Club, they know why Kenny Omega is set on the idea of being the best wrestler in the world, they know about how and why the FTW championship came to be, they know about NWA, AAA, TNA, etc.

Which of course makes sense, becuase it's a new company, so they have to rely on such stuff around them. WWE much more pretends to be a capsule in itself because they're the market leader.


I'm not sure i've seen a single episode of Dark to be honest. I think I watched one? Not sure. I hear it's good, but who can watch all that much wrestling each week? Even though I pretty much only watch Dynamite as a weekly show at this point.

Anyway, Abadon is back. Yay!

I'm looking forward to this week's Dynamite. It's good to have something to look forward to.


edit: Waitaminute, I hear Ricochet wrestled Retribution. And LOST. And got pinned by SLAPJACK? Wow. This is King Ricochet. 'member when he was the best flippydude in the world?

I just watched Dynamite. :O Crazy times!

 Sigur wrote:
I just watched Dynamite. :O Crazy times!

Spoiler:

Wooaoahahahahaahahaha. This IS interesting, isn't it. All of a sudden AEW turned it up a notch. Omega to Impact. Who waits there but the machine gun and doc gallows? They'll reform the golden age Bullet Club and be all tough bad guys and evil and all! Well, maybe not. BUT it's really, really interesting. Maybe they even want to be petty and 'show WWE how to do an inter-promotion invasion angle'. Either way - isn't wrestling fun?

I'm not sure how relevant IMPACT! is these days either, but they do have some strong talent over there, and by all accounts have been putting out a generally good product for a while now.

I'm looking forwards to the final of the Diamond Ring thing - I think the two finalists will make for an interesting match, even before you factor in the plotlines already in place around their respective "stables."

One thing I've heard being reporting this week is that AEW may well introduce a Trios championship next year - they've certainly got a fair few groups that can work that, while not taking away from the tag division. I do wonder if they'll wait for their second show to debut before bringing this into play, though - I can see them using tournament matches to decide the initial champions being used as a draw for the new show, for instance.

Of the various groups in AEW that could work a Trio Championship, who would y'all like to be the inaugural champions - and which do you think it'll be?

I'd like it to be Jurassic Express, or maybe Best Friends, but I think it's more likely to be either Death Triangle or the Kingston Family.

@bbb:


@Dysartes: Oohl interesting question. I'd like the inaugural trios champions to be SCU. I know that it's probably impossible, since they were the first tag champions if I remember correctly, and Daniels is more retired than not as far as I can see, but to me SCU are THE trio tag team of the past years. Not necessarily of the coming years, but of the past years. Apart from New Day, of course.However, your suggestions seem to be a lot more likely, so I think that Jurassic Express might be a good candidate for that. Death Triangle and Kingston&friends are good candidates as well, but I think they got too important things to do for a while for a tertiary title. And it keeps Jurassic Express away from the Tag Titles. That may sound horribly negative, but to clarify: I don't think that the trios title would benefit DT/KF's story much at this point. They don't need it, do they? And AEW got more interesting (to me) tag teams to compete for the tag titles. On the other hand it may well be time to give Jurassic Express a title, and that would be a good one I think.

Best Friends would be a good candidate as well of course, but somehow they seem to be busy having storylines all the time. It's really good to see how much they're being used.

 Dysartes wrote:
I'm not sure how relevant IMPACT! is these days either, but they do have some strong talent over there, and by all accounts have been putting out a generally good product for a while now.

I'm looking forwards to the final of the Diamond Ring thing - I think the two finalists will make for an interesting match, even before you factor in the plotlines already in place around their respective "stables."

One thing I've heard being reporting this week is that AEW may well introduce a Trios championship next year - they've certainly got a fair few groups that can work that, while not taking away from the tag division. I do wonder if they'll wait for their second show to debut before bringing this into play, though - I can see them using tournament matches to decide the initial champions being used as a draw for the new show, for instance.

Of the various groups in AEW that could work a Trio Championship, who would y'all like to be the inaugural champions - and which do you think it'll be?

I'd like it to be Jurassic Express, or maybe Best Friends, but I think it's more likely to be either Death Triangle or the Kingston Family.

I want it to be BEST FRIENDS (love that group!) but I think it will be Jurassic Express.

There's really no reason Luchasaurus shouldn't be holding a title of some sort at this point.

Just brainstorming possible Trios off the top of my head - feel free to fill in any I forget...

- Best Friends - got to give the people what they want...
- Jurassic Express
- Death Triangle
- Kingston Family
- Some combination of the Inner Circle
- Some combination of the Dark Order
- People Managed By Tully Blanchard
- Team Taz
- Nightmare Family (Cody, Dustin, QT Marshall)
- The Elite, maybe? (Kenny & The Bucks)
- Private Party & Matt Hardy (maybe - not sure with Matt changing character again)

@Alpharius: Absolutely agree about Luchasaurus. Everybody loves him. He is lovely. And Jungleboy can hold titles too of course.

@Dysartes: Yup, there's a ton of potential there. Except that I'd prefer not to see Kenny Omega anywhere near the Young Bucks for the next months to come. He's got heel champ things to do, and the Young Bucks kinda looks like they're back to being faces. Or rather 'the young bucks default mode'. Plus, the Gunn Club. Who are three dudes now. I'm sure they can find a third one for the Nightmare family in Cody's stead. Judging from the past year I think they wouldn't put him with the Nightmare family in a match. Love Dustin of course, but I'm having a hard time caring for this stable, no matter how many people they add.

I realise I left SCU off the list - not sure how I managed that one.

If Cody isn't in a singles program, I suspect he might not mind some trios matches - Nightmare Family could swap him out for Lee Johnson, but I suspect he'd need a spot of singles rehab first.

Fair point regarding Kenny & the Bucks - I didn't take enough Winter into account in my thinking, obviously

 Dysartes wrote:
...
Fair point regarding Kenny & the Bucks - I didn't take enough Winter into account in my thinking, obviously

 Alpharius wrote:

There's really no reason Luchasaurus shouldn't be holding a title of some sort at this point.

I'm stunned by this comment... I can't think of anyone less appropriate to hold a title.
I'll give you that he's got a great look, but I find his in-ring work awful and he cuts promos like Beast from XMen

Dynamite however was great this week; Sting doing a walk in was so cool and the Kenny Omega v Mox match was great!
MJF already causing strife in the Inner Circle is a great storyline too.

 Kroem wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

There's really no reason Luchasaurus shouldn't be holding a title of some sort at this point.

I'm stunned by this comment... I can't think of anyone less appropriate to hold a title.
I'll give you that he's got a great look, but I find his in-ring work awful and he cuts promos like Beast from XMen
...

I don't think that this ever stopped anybody from holding a title. I think he's fine in-ring, but so far we have rarely seen him in singles matches, so maybe he's not that good? I'll have to pay more attention next time. His promos are okay I think. Not a big fan of "haha, i'm a dinosaur and I'm 70 million years old", but I think that many AEW characters are a bit too jokey in general. Nyla Rose makes a nice joke every now and then during a match, but as a heel she should NOT dress up as Mega Man. Oh well.

Haha well true!
It was the match with Warlow that really put me off him, he made everything so awkward and didn't disguise everyone lining up to catch him at all.
But hey different strokes for different folks and all that.

AEW actually has a lot of really good promos; Cody, Jericho, Dustin, MJF, Kingston, Starks etc.

Sigur wrote:

 Kroem wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

There's really no reason Luchasaurus shouldn't be holding a title of some sort at this point.

I'm stunned by this comment... I can't think of anyone less appropriate to hold a title.
I'll give you that he's got a great look, but I find his in-ring work awful and he cuts promos like Beast from XMen
...

I don't think that this ever stopped anybody from holding a title.

Ha!

It does feel like maybe he hasn't been watching wrestling for too long...or maybe I've been watching it for too long?!?

Luchasaurus is fine, and Jurassic Express is 'over' - or at least they were when crowds were around.

There's rumors of a 3-Man Tag Title coming soon, so that would be a fine place for them to hang out as champs for a while...

 Alpharius wrote:

It does feel like maybe he hasn't been watching wrestling for too long...or maybe I've been watching it for too long?!?

Luchasaurus is fine, and Jurassic Express is 'over' - or at least they were when crowds were around.

There's rumors of a 3-Man Tag Title coming soon, so that would be a fine place for them to hang out as champs for a while...

What me? That's fair, obviously I was a big fan in the Attitude Era (weren't we all...) but I stopped watching wrestling until about a year ago when AEW started.
I want AEW to be the best it can be, just because WWF put the belt on Ultimate Warrior or Sid Vicious back the the day doesn't mean AEW should make the same mistakes!

I think Luchasaurus is fine when he's making Jungle Boy look good in Jurassic Express, I just don't want to see him anywhere near the World Championship XD

I think AEW are walking a fine line at the moment, they have some really good talent there but are also a bit too fond of goofy joke wrestlers/ spots.
I'm still enjoying it at the moment, but I hope they don't lean into the comedy wrestling any more than they are already.

You have a good point about AEW there - a lot of the 'humor' isn't working well, but overall, they've got a heck of a promotion right now.

Can't wait for...much later this year when live crowds are back, as there was a great overall 'energy' at their events back then - I miss it, and you can tell they do too!

Yeah, I absolutely agree. Thing is that AEW do a LOT of humour by comparison. Some things hit, some things miss. I think they got a lot of 'smarmy heels'. All that aside, it's great fun to watch. I follow WWE things via youtubsie news videos and watch the PPVs. AEW I watch on a weekly basis. This year I pretty much watched now NJPW stuff, to be honest. I think I even watched more Impact this year than NJPW. Which is a bit odd, but ...well, Gallows and Anderson, right?

I really miss crowds. It's just not the same at the moment and I hate piped-in crowd noise. Up to this week, AEW have been pretty sensible with that. And I'd really, really love to go watch some live wrestling again.

This week's episode of Dynamite was really good! What a talent MJF is, I'm loving everything he is in right now.

 Kroem wrote:
This week's episode of Dynamite was really good! What a talent MJF is, I'm loving everything he is in right now.

I think that this is a thing which could be said for most weeks.
Not sure what to make of The Acclaimed. Just not a fan of battle raps. At least not in Wrestling. It makes me cringe every time, no matter who does it.

Well, at least they're being presented as heels, so you're meant to dislike them

 Dysartes wrote:
Well, at least they're being presented as heels, so you're meant to dislike them

Damn you AEW and your effective booking of heels!!!!1
Really liking Top Flight and the Varcity Blondes though. Seems like the tag division won't lose its spark in the future.

Yeah, it's good to see they're still looking for promising talents.

Was it Top Flight who basically challenged the Young Bucks to a match in their local promotion - which saw the Bucks turn up, and led to the team getting an AEW deal?

Not sure about the local promotion, but as far as I know the contact was made via Instagram DMs.

I watched TLC. Had not much drive to watch it altogether, but in the end it ended up being the first PPV in a LONG time I didn't watch alone, and for that reason alone it was pretty fun. I enjoyed the PPV overall. No real downtimes, and to be honest the Firefly Inferno match was pretty cool.

Jon Huber has passed away :(

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Jon Huber has passed away :(

Just woke up from my lie in to this. Sad news indeed.

It is. 41. Crazy. :(

41 is very young - even in the Wrestling world.

Is there any cause of death news yet?

Apparently Non Covid Lung Issues.

Rumoured to have been hospital for two months.

Him not appearing on Dynamite makes more sense, then.

I haven't watched RAW - did WWE do any form of memorial package, or was Vince being spiteful again?

I'd be surprised if they did to be honest, but I wouldn't put it past them to have someone drop a little reference to Luke Harper.

They did the start of the episode picture and in memorial screen. Beyond that a few wrestlers honored him in their own ways. Afterwards on Raw Talk Xavier Woods said more and got emotional.

 bbb wrote:
They did the start of the episode picture and in memorial screen. Beyond that a few wrestlers honored him in their own ways. Afterwards on Raw Talk Xavier Woods said more and got emotional.

That's classy of WWE.

Happy new year, everybody. Last night I seem to have signed up for New Japan World and fell asleep watching Okada-Tanahashi at Wrestle Kingdom 2016.

I really liked the sentiment of the AEW tribute show :-) (although the matches were pretty sloppy)

What are people thinking they do with the Dark Order? It feels like if they ever were to have a face turn as a faction, this would be the time.
They could make it all about brotherhood and mutual support, which would chime with the bits they have bee doing with Evil Uno supporting Cabanna, Adam Page needing a friend, John Silver's comedy stuff etc.

It would make sense to me given how AEW seem reluctant to book The Elite as a faction too much, and no-one cares about The Nightmare Family.
I think there is space for a new face group to get over and feud with AEW's heel groups.

Yeah, that might make sense. I mean the only thing actually evil about the Dark Order lately was Mr.Brodie Lee, right?

I would have loved for them to go proper topical with the Dark Order when they started doing the vignettes in which they were going for basically lonely, angry internet people, people who feel excluded from the modern world and all of that. Basically any populist movement. Use fake news angles and all of that. But...well, they had to get a big leader person and all of that and just be cartoony baddies. And then they became cartoony wacky comedy baddies. Then the interesting stuff with Colt Cabana happened, then the equally interesting little bits with Evil Uno happened (and the straight-up comedy stuff on BTE with Silver and his pal). They may as well be faces now. People LOVE Silver (and probably rightly so. The match with Orange Cassidy was a break-out moment for him), and apart from that they just didn't follow through with the Dark Order concept enough to make them a credible threat, even with Brodie Lee at the top.

I'd say keep them as they are for now, which is basically faces anyway. Heck, if WWE run the Fiend as a top face (which I believe they do in their internal logic), AEW can run the Dark Order as faces any day of the week.


You know what? Make Evil Uno and more and more Colt Cabana run the Dark order. Brodie Lee is gone, and week by week Colt Cabana turns the Dark Order into good guys, simply by purity of heart. It's a wholesome story. Everybody loves Colt Cabana, right?