AnomanderRake wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
@BBAP - bolters are range 24" Scatter laser are range 36" and have about 5x the offensive botential to a bolter. Bikes almost move 2x as fast. You will never shoot a scatter bike with a bolter unless you are in a drop pod. Why the heck would you ever put tac marines in a drop pod?

To wreck the gunline armies that don't want you to be able to plant units with their own portable cover in their deployment zone on turn one?

I don't know a single gunline that gets wrecked by tactical marines. It's at best a break even sitatuion for the tacs because they aren't cheap 105 min in a pod with no special weapons and no ability to survive the return fire.

 BBAP wrote:

You're making the same mistake Jancoran made - thinking it's just a case of keeping them safe from shooting. P.

Lol. Yes. thats the "mistake" I'm making. Only thats not a mistake.

Like I said...each passing post is affirmation that it deserves to be on the list of underestimated things. What faction do you actually play in competitive games? When was your last tournaent win? What was your list in that tournament? Since we're all sharing and since you demand that anyone who claims anything prove their claims and so on. While you're at it, where do you regularly post for your local gaming group? I've given you mine.

Someone who speaks to me and others like this surely is ranked himself in the ITC as well. What gaming club are you in, as they are all ranked here:
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/frontline-gamings-independent-tournament-circuit/itc-2015-rankings/

You already know mine and you can easily enough search for our players on that list.

Please tell me who you are and what gives you the right to be this dismissive to those who are actually competing. since we're dismissing anyone without any chops, what are yours?

 Xenomancers wrote:
@BBAP - bolters are range 24" Scatter laser are range 36" and have about 5x the offensive botential to a bolter. Bikes move 2x as fast. You will never shoot a scatter bike with a bolter unless you are in a drop pod. Why the heck would you ever put tac marines in a drop pod?

Because evidently Eldar players are too stupid to realize that 12" + 36" > 6" + 24".

Martel732 wrote:
As I said, LoS blocking terrain helps Eldar more than hurts them.

You're wrong. I don't know what else to say.

"This is you ruining Codex: Craftworlds. "

Hardly. That unit will still be nasty.

Yes, but there'll be less of them. Eldar are already fielding 25-40 models max at 1500pts; start jacking up the price of their units and that drops further. Marines can cram that into 1250pts. Are Marines OP or undercosted? No, they just have a different design philosophy.

No one cares about bolters anyway.

Speak for yourself. My units have them, I'm going to use them.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
...Everywhere?...

War Walkers

AV10 Open-Topped vehicles? In 7th Ed? Really?

Wave Serpents

One shuriken catapult and one shuriken cannon at base. Woohoo, infantry-shredder! Except no.

Dark Reapers

... provided you upgrade them to have AT missiles.

One-gun-per-three scatterbikes.

As long as the upgrade is free and the unit remains at its current cost it might work.

Guardian Defenders

Guardsmen. Can't harm Rhinos unless they take a Platform.

Dire Avengers.

Can't harm Rhinos. Are generally awful.

All the other stuff Scatterbikes have made redundant and relegated to a shelf collecting dust.

The fact these units are bad is not because Scatbikes are good. it's because Phil Kelly wrote the Codex. He specialises in making a single exceptional build surrounded by rubbish units.

I'm sorry, but the idea that scatterbikes are actually integral to the normal operation of the army is silly. I've been playing Mechdar/Aspects for closing on ten years now and it works just fine with no bikes.

There's a difference between "works just fine" and "is balanced for the Edition meta". My Sisters work just fine. They're not balanced for the Edition meta.

Like I said before, you can build an army that "works just fine" without being "balanced" if you like, but you don't get to whine about OP if you do.

I think you were supposed to get that "...how much do you want three models to cost?..." is the wrong question, since there are quite obviously units where three models are 50+ points each and absolutely worth it.

But those units have more going for them than an MEQ statline, an Eldar Jetbike and a Scatterlaser. That's why they cost what they do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:

 BBAP wrote:

You're making the same mistake Jancoran made - thinking it's just a case of keeping them safe from shooting. P.

Lol. Yes. thats the "mistake" I'm making. Only thats not a mistake.

It is. You charged nothing your opponent didn't feed you in any of the games you played. Keeping them safe from shooting is far from their only issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Tac marines aren't wrecking anything. Get real. Even in a gladius, they are taken just to be obj sec bullet sponges. They are good in a horde format. Hooray.

How would you know? You don't even fire their bolters.

That's what I thought.

"Are Marines OP or undercosted?"

Gladius sure as feth is. Arguably skyhammer.

"
Yes, but there'll be less of them"

As there should be, given how insane their rules are.

"How would you know? You don't even fire their bolters."

Of course I do. Now you're being deliberately obtuse. I'm just realistic about how much damage that will actually do.

 BBAP wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
As I said, LoS blocking terrain helps Eldar more than hurts them.

You're wrong. I don't know what else to say.

Dude... you don't have to be right, but at least be capable of arguing your points with some degree of clarity and respect.

I disagree with both Martel and Jancoran on occasion. But I don't think I've ever seen them unable to at least define *why* they support something.

If you can't take being challenged without shutting down or taking it personally, you need to sharpen up.

Martel732 wrote:
"Are Marines OP or undercosted?"

Gladius sure as feth is. Arguably skyhammer.

"
Yes, but there'll be less of them"

As there should be, given how insane their rules are.

"How would you know? You don't even fire their bolters."

Of course I do. Now you're being deliberately obtuse. I'm just realistic about how much damage will actually do.

They are the best options but OP? come on. These formations are useless vs daemons and tau and necrons and any sort of deathstar build. Decent vs eldar. Thats about it. Gladius will wreck BA - I'll give you that. This is why eldar bring a riptide wing. To get their interceptor to counter skyhammer and if they encounter gladius - absolutely Ravage the free razors with 6 str 9 ap2 ordnance shots a turn.

Or 72 S6 Rending shots. Don't forget a Culexus to turn off deathstars...

Gladius is absolutely OP because of obj sec and free stuffs.

 Jancoran wrote:
Please tell me who you are and what gives you the right to be this dismissive to those who are actually competing. since we're dismissing anyone without any chops, what are yours?

I'm not going to tell you. I don't need to. Unlike you, I don't demand respect or crave validation for my 40k achievements, whatever they may (or may not) be. It's also entirely irrelevant - personal pedigree has no bearing whatsoever on what units can and can't do. I could go to a US GT and table Matt Root with mech Sisters, and it still wouldn't change the fact mech Sisters are a sub-optimal list in 7th Edition. I'm not saying I could do that - I'm saying even if I did, the facts would remain as they are. This is what I've been trying to tell you. If you read more than a single line of each post you'll see.

Your "chops" became an issue because you tried to use them to argue that Repentia were an awesome unit - the evidence you provided was wholly insufficient to back that up. I could've just said that, of course, but you'd been a condescending wretch to me - personally - up until that point, so I decided to give you some stick. That was childish, but hey - I guess we're both unpleasant in our own way.

This is the last time I'm going to make any personal comment to you in this thread. We've been warned once by the mods already, and frankly the whole thing got pathetic two pages back. If you want to discuss Repentia with me, start by addressing any of the stuff you've glossed over so far. If you just want to jab at me some I'll block you, and you can be someone else's problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 BBAP wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
As I said, LoS blocking terrain helps Eldar more than hurts them.

You're wrong. I don't know what else to say.

Dude... you don't have to be right, but at least be capable of arguing your points with some degree of clarity and respect.

The most concise way to demonstrate my point here is to resort to trigonometry. Nobody's going to read that. The other way is to write out a tactica explaining how to use cover to force ranged units to come to you. Nobody's going to read that, either. Everyone just wants to whine about OP.

The other way to do it is to say "play the game". But if I do that, you'll come along and whinge about "disrespect".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Of course I do. Now you're being deliberately obtuse. I'm just realistic about how much damage that will actually do.

So am I. They need to kill 1 Scatbike to force a Morale check and scoop 4 shots out of the return fire, and they will do that. Not every squad every turn, but it'll happen.

You seem to think it never will though. I don't know what to say in that case. Keep believing you lose games because stuff is OP.

I do play the game. The Eldar are never going to send the scatterbikes to you. They're going to send WK and warp spiders. They're not going to open up their bikes to the possibility of taking damage if they don't have to.

It sounds like you play against Eldar players who don't know how to use their own units.

"Keep believing you lose games because stuff is OP."

I lose to Orks, too. And they have nothing OP. But it's not nearly as spectacularly humiliating as Eldar tabling me by turn 4. I don't know how 1/3 of a list spitting out 96 S6 shots is not OP.... That's the equivalent of 160 bolter shots vs T4. Do you have 160 sisters to shoot back?

Anybody else disappointed by the moderation on this board?

All right. We're getting grossly off topic again. We've established that Martel thinks everything is OP and BBAP thinks nothing is OP.

Getting back to the topic at hand apparently I need to bring up Drop Pods as a unit that's grossly OP that nobody else thinks is. 35pts for three AV12 all-round hull points, half of which automatically arrive from Reserves on turn one by Deep Strike, with no risk of Mishap so long as you plant them at least 12" from the edge of the board, that can plant a wide variety of effective units on the table, give them cover, and sit around being a nuisance with a storm bolter for the rest of the game. Not to mention they've got ObSec if they brought a Troops unit in, are free in a Gladius, and can be taken in spare FA slots in a CAD to make Drop Pod Assault get more stuff in automatically on turn one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Anybody else disappointed by the moderation on this board?

They respond quickly to the yellow triangle if you think it's necessary.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
All right. We're getting grossly off topic again. We've established that Martel thinks everything is OP and BBAP thinks nothing is OP.

Getting back to the topic at hand apparently I need to bring up Drop Pods as a unit that's grossly OP that nobody else thinks is. 35pts for three AV12 all-round hull points, half of which automatically arrive from Reserves on turn one by Deep Strike, with no risk of Mishap so long as you plant them at least 12" from the edge of the board, that can plant a wide variety of effective units on the table, give them cover, and sit around being a nuisance with a storm bolter for the rest of the game. Not to mention they've got ObSec if they brought a Troops unit in, are free in a Gladius, and can be taken in spare FA slots in a CAD to make Drop Pod Assault get more stuff in automatically on turn one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Anybody else disappointed by the moderation on this board?

They respond quickly to the yellow triangle if you think it's necessary.

Drop pods are highly overrated outside Skyhammer. The bottom line here is that most truly OP units have been discussed to death. There aren't that many secrets left. If a unit has a substantial skill barrier or a significant chance of being ineffective, that seems to not fit the bill of OP.

Martel732 wrote:
Drop pods are highly overrated outside Skyhammer. The bottom line here is that most truly OP units have been discussed to death. There aren't that many secrets left. If a unit has a substantial skill barrier or a significant chance of being ineffective, that seems to not fit the bill of OP.

...

...

The ability to Deep Strike whatever you want on turn one with no chance of failure is highly overrated.

...

....

...What.

Without being able to assault, having imperial weapons to shoot, and being stuck on foot afterwards is kinda meh. Oh, and it's obvious it's coming, so counter deployment is a real thing. Drop pods would be much dirtier with secret lists.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
@BBAP - bolters are range 24" Scatter laser are range 36" and have about 5x the offensive botential to a bolter. Bikes almost move 2x as fast. You will never shoot a scatter bike with a bolter unless you are in a drop pod. Why the heck would you ever put tac marines in a drop pod?

To wreck the gunline armies that don't want you to be able to plant units with their own portable cover in their deployment zone on turn one?

That's what Sternguard are for not Tactical Marines. Both will die at the same rate though.

Martel732 wrote:
I do play the game. The Eldar are never going to send the scatterbikes to you.

They're not going to send the Scatbikes into RF range. However, unless you play with a single pillar to block LoS, remove Wrecks from the table, and have like 5 units in your army, it's just not feasible for the Eldar player to keep all of his Scatbikes out of bolter range of your entire army 100% of the time while he's repositioning them to see around LoS-blocking cover and/ or positioning them to contest objectives. It's just not going to happen on any table that's even remotely sensible. He **has** to risk them being plinked.

They're going to send WK and warp spiders.

The Warp Spiders have to come into RF range, and risk not getting back out again, to do anything - that's why they're not OP; but I thought the Wraithknight was OP because it was killing 100% of everything from 36" away and couldn't possibly be killed? If it's walking into a stack of Melta/ Grav it's going to die, right?

Sternguard are an expensive gambit for sure.

Martel732 wrote:
Gladius is absolutely OP because of obj sec and free stuffs.

Oh hell yeah it is, even better with dark angels since they only need to spend 55 points for some scouts to complete it.

I agree its OP as all hell.

On the original topic, one unit that a lot of people dont realize is OP, or well, sorta OP, is doing a dev squad, kitted with either all melta or grav, and have a terminator captain in cataphractii armor attacked so they all get Slow and Purposeful.

Put them in a drop pod, drop them right by an enemy deathstar, and watch it vanish off the board under a hail of grav or melta fire(If its a vehicle)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Sternguard are an expensive gambit for sure.

Personal experience here, but the best way i have seen them run is as salamander in drop pod, or as imperial fist for all the special issue ammunition.

 BBAP wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I do play the game. The Eldar are never going to send the scatterbikes to you.

They're not going to send the Scatbikes into RF range. However, unless you play with a single pillar to block LoS, remove Wrecks from the table, and have like 5 units in your army, it's just not feasible for the Eldar player to keep all of his Scatbikes out of bolter range of your entire army 100% of the time while he's repositioning them to see around LoS-blocking cover and/ or positioning them to contest objectives. It's just not going to happen on any table that's even remotely sensible. He **has** to risk them being plinked.

They're going to send WK and warp spiders.

The Warp Spiders have to come into RF range, and risk not getting back out again, to do anything - that's why they're not OP; but I thought the Wraithknight was OP because it was killing 100% of everything from 36" away and couldn't possibly be killed? If it's walking into a stack of Melta/ Grav it's going to die, right?

You won't win the a battle of plinking. They have the firepower of 160 boltguns outside rapid fire range. Even if you LoS say 1/3 of them out of effectiveness, that's still more firepower than your entire sisters list.

WK is OP because of the resource imbalance of what it costs to field vs what it takes to kill. WKs likely won't die from a few squads' melta/grav. Especially the sword/board ones. The wraithcannon version is less likely to close in on grav, but melta is not a problem because of low ROF.

"On the original topic, one unit that a lot of people dont realize is OP, or well, sorta OP, is doing a dev squad, kitted with either all melta or grav, and have a terminator captain in cataphractii armor attacked so they all get Slow and Purposeful.

Put them in a drop pod, drop them right by an enemy deathstar, and watch it vanish off the board under a hail of grav or melta fire(If its a vehicle) "

That's a legit contender because it mimics Skyhammer.

Martel732 wrote:
Sternguard are an expensive gambit for sure.

Well two of the ammo types got things going for them. 2+ Poison can finish off smaller squads and the AP3 one can plausibly force Jinking on a larger squad, potentially ruining their firepower for at least one turn. Assuming they elect to do so though so that's a gambit.

Martel732 wrote:
Gladius is absolutely OP because of obj sec and free stuffs.

What is it OP against specifically?

Demonic incursion with at minimum 6 ap3 torrent flamers? FMC with nova spells? Nope - can't even compete with that. turn 2-3 table.
Another Gladius? Go first - you win.
SW deathstars capable of charging half your army in a single turn? Nope - might not even kill a single model. (possible win if you essentially cheat and take really long turns)
Tau suit spam with SS? Nope - just too much firepower for av 11 tin cans to live more than 1 turn. turn 3-4 mop up...maybe they'll call time before you are tabled.
Eldar? Possibly win if you get to go first and gib the WK before it's invis/fortune - possible win if objectives are really spread out.
Nids? Easy win - just park on obectives being picked apart by flyrants - win by points. Kill almost nothing.
Necrons? Hope to hold objectives - kill almost nothing - before the wraiths you can't kill destroy your entire army...could go ether way.

It's just not a great match-up for gladius ever. How is it OP? You at best have some even chances and half the field just tables you in 3-4 turns.

Sternguard are okay vs scatterbikes, but the units of 3 bikes scheme really limits what they can do. After they drop, they're dead men walking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Gladius is absolutely OP because of obj sec and free stuffs.

What is it OP against specifically?

Demonic incursion with at minimum 6 ap3 torrent flamers? FMC with nova spells? Nope - can't even compete with that. turn 2-3 table.
Another Gladius? Go first - you win.
SW deathstars capable of charging half your army in a single turn? Nope - might not even kill a single model. (possible win if you essentially cheat and take really long turns)
Tau suit spam with SS? Nope - just too much firepower for av 11 tin cans to live more than 1 turn. turn 3-4 mop up...maybe they'll call time before you are tabled.
Eldar? Possibly win if you get to go first and gib the WK before it's invis/fortune - possible win if objectives are really spread out.
Nids? Easy win - just park on obectives being picked apart by flyrants - win by points. Kill almost nothing.
Necrons? Hope to hold objectives - kill almost nothing - before the wraiths you can't kill destroy your entire army...could go ether way.

It's just not a great match-up for gladius ever. How is it OP? You at best have some even chances and half the field just tables you in 3-4 turns.

I think with so few vehicles dying to exlodes results it becomes progressively harder to even target the remaining marines for many of these lists. I've seen Tau players do the numbers on trying to kill off the Gladius; it's not pretty even with Riptide wing. Plus the gladius can have quite a few scouting grav cannons.

Martel732 wrote:
Without being able to assault, having imperial weapons to shoot, and being stuck on foot afterwards is kinda meh. Oh, and it's obvious it's coming, so counter deployment is a real thing. Drop pods would be much dirtier with secret lists.

Frag cannons, massed melta/plasma/grav, and Deathwatch/Sternguard ammo are 'kinda meh' now?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Without being able to assault, having imperial weapons to shoot, and being stuck on foot afterwards is kinda meh. Oh, and it's obvious it's coming, so counter deployment is a real thing. Drop pods would be much dirtier with secret lists.

Frag cannons, massed melta/plasma/grav, and Deathwatch/Sternguard ammo are 'kinda meh'?

Compared to what Xenos are spitting back? Assuming you even survive the interceptor phase? You can't effectively mass melta/plasma/grav, either. You can get combi-sternguard but that's very 5th ed. Also, the more pods you use, you have to buy empty ones or increasingly fragment your own army. I've beaten a lot of lists that would have won if they just used Rhinos instead of Drop pods. Pods are just very gimmicky because you don't have a plan B.

I drop in fragnoughts all the time. No one cares. I guess Orks care. And DE. Certainly not Eldar/Tau/SM.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Gladius is absolutely OP because of obj sec and free stuffs.

What is it OP against specifically?

Demonic incursion with at minimum 6 ap3 torrent flamers? FMC with nova spells? Nope - can't even compete with that. turn 2-3 table.
Another Gladius? Go first - you win.
SW deathstars capable of charging half your army in a single turn? Nope - might not even kill a single model. (possible win if you essentially cheat and take really long turns)
Tau suit spam with SS? Nope - just too much firepower for av 11 tin cans to live more than 1 turn. turn 3-4 mop up...maybe they'll call time before you are tabled.
Eldar? Possibly win if you get to go first and gib the WK before it's invis/fortune - possible win if objectives are really spread out.
Nids? Easy win - just park on obectives being picked apart by flyrants - win by points. Kill almost nothing.
Necrons? Hope to hold objectives - kill almost nothing - before the wraiths you can't kill destroy your entire army...could go ether way.

It's just not a great match-up for gladius ever. How is it OP? You at best have some even chances and half the field just tables you in 3-4 turns.

One of the OP factors is that EVERYTHING, in the army is a objective secured, even transports. As noted, since most vehicles dont go to explodes you basically use them to block LoS.

You can take say 5 drop pods, and bring 3 in on turn one, right ontop of an objective. If your opponent wants it he needs to now kill what ever was inside AND the drop pod. Then of course you get 5 more razorbacks for free so thats 5 free twinlinked heavy bolters which, i know HB arnt that great, but when its free and provides LoS, its pretty nice.

You can very quickly cover the board with Objective secured which is really nice.

Martel732 wrote:
Sternguard are okay vs scatterbikes, but the units of 3 bikes scheme really limits what they can do. After they drop, they're dead men walking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Gladius is absolutely OP because of obj sec and free stuffs.

What is it OP against specifically?

Demonic incursion with at minimum 6 ap3 torrent flamers? FMC with nova spells? Nope - can't even compete with that. turn 2-3 table.
Another Gladius? Go first - you win.
SW deathstars capable of charging half your army in a single turn? Nope - might not even kill a single model. (possible win if you essentially cheat and take really long turns)
Tau suit spam with SS? Nope - just too much firepower for av 11 tin cans to live more than 1 turn. turn 3-4 mop up...maybe they'll call time before you are tabled.
Eldar? Possibly win if you get to go first and gib the WK before it's invis/fortune - possible win if objectives are really spread out.
Nids? Easy win - just park on obectives being picked apart by flyrants - win by points. Kill almost nothing.
Necrons? Hope to hold objectives - kill almost nothing - before the wraiths you can't kill destroy your entire army...could go ether way.

It's just not a great match-up for gladius ever. How is it OP? You at best have some even chances and half the field just tables you in 3-4 turns.

I think with so few vehicles dying to exlodes results it becomes progressively harder to even target the remaining marines for many of these lists. I've seen Tau players do the numbers on trying to kill off the Gladius; it's not pretty even with Riptide wing. Plus the gladius can have quite a few scouting grav cannons.

Depends on the tau list. A buffmander crisis suit list with SS and riptide wing is essentially designed to beat gladius.

Martel732 wrote:
You won't win the a battle of plinking.

Define "win". What's my objective - to kill them all, or to reduce their effectiveness?

WK is OP because of the resource imbalance of what it costs to field vs what it takes to kill.

It has 6 wounds. Shoot stuff at it, it'll die.

WKs likely won't die from a few squads' melta/grav.

Can't feasibly be killed in 1 turn by plinking with AT = OP. Okay.

Especially the sword/board ones

5++/FNP = OP. Okay

The wraithcannon version is less likely to close in on grav, but melta is not a problem because of low ROF.

2 per squad x 10 squads = 20

Low ROF.

Ok.

I think we're done here.

Your arguments all neglect cost effectiveness. You neglect the obscenely low cost of said WK. Go ahead and stomp off.

Also you will never have all those meltas within range. Meltas suck vs mcs\gmcs because of low rof. I know because i've been stuck using them myself. With faster units to boot

Not sure if my eyes are playing up, but are you comparing 100 marines with 20 meltas to a WK?

So your answer to low rate of fire is to throw that lot at it?


What about the second one and the army it comes with?





It's a fact, melta weapons are a low rate of fire.






You have also just proved Martel right on his own point there.
He says they are OP because the points you must invest to kill them.
Your idea is 100 marines.

Not my personal choice for making melta effective, but hey ho.

Now how are said marines getting anywhere near it without scatterbikes chewing through them?




The WK as Martel said is OP simply because of the investment you must make to ensure the things die.

While I don't mind fighting them, I dislike fighting 2-3 at a time.

Martel732 wrote:...stomp off.

I see what you did there...

...anyway, in another attempt to steer the thread on-course, why so little love for the Medusa Strike Force? As far as I'm seeing, most the discussion about that detachment is "super-Smash" and leaves it at that, but there looks to be more to it than that.

You don't get free transports like the Gladius, so it may actually be worth looking at the Stormlance instead. For a core, you can grab 3 Marine squads in Lasplas Razorbacks. The Razorbacks move 6, disembark their dudes 3" away, the dudes tap a unit at 24" before moving back into their transport, then the transport fires at two targets (thanks to POTMS) before moving another D6. If a unit is near an objective, you reroll to-hit so there's even less penalty to not taking the TL lascannon/assault cannon than before.

Your Marines get in-built FNP (and the 10th company Auxiliary in particular becomes really annoying to flush out for its cost, plus POTMS is a cute bonus for any Storm Speeders that can now split fire between their Cerebrus Launcher and Multimelta, and Precision Shots on a combi-grav are also cute in their own way), and your Bike Command Squad gets it on 3+ (not to mention it's also moving 2d6 after shooting). And to top it off, your Warlord is getting a second Strategic Trait. Although you don't get the sheer number of transports you would get from doing a Khan Gladius, your guys will also last longer overall once their transports do get popped, and their additional mobility once on-foot will help them get to the objectives in the first place, which in many cases can be a fair tradeoff vs losing obsec...at least as long as you can space right and protect against Jetbikes grabbing them first.

It definitely looks to have a lot more potential than the initial inclination to use it for running Smashstars.

 Jackal wrote:
...It's a fact, melta weapons are a low rate of fire...

Point of hilarious irony: Guess where the only melta weapon in the game that isn't low rate of fire is found?

(You're right! It's on a Wraithknight!)

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Jackal wrote:
...It's a fact, melta weapons are a low rate of fire...

Point of hilarious irony: Guess where the only melta weapon in the game that isn't low rate of fire is found?

(You're right! It's on a Wraithknight!)

That big fancy FW dread has one, too. To be fair, here.

Can't forget the Hazard Suit with Fusion Cascader if we're going down that route.

Technically, the only multishot Melta weapon that isn't from Forgeworld is the Heat Ray on the Necron Triarch Stalker. You "could" argue the Helbrute does so too with Fire Frenzy, but technically it's firing weapons twice rather than the weapon getting an improved ROF.

That being said, the Stalker is reasonable enough in its formation. There's skornergy between it and the Praetorians, but they can still DS and act as a pseudo-plasma squad (and MTC protects them if they scatter in Dangerous terrain). Worst comes to worst, 125 pts for an AV 13 MTC walker with a double-shot multimelta that rerolls to hit/wound/pen while making units near it BS 5 is very reasonable. Not OP by any stretch but it's definitely a nice tool to have.

For all of the complaints about grav cannons on other threads, they're actually pretty hard to use with BA. So it's not like I even rely on those to do the job. OP requires a specific set of circumstances, and they're not always the same. The only common denominator is too much table effect for too few points.

WK: offense is not truly off the charts, but it way too hard to kill for its cost. GMC rules are a major kick in everyone's gnards here.
TWC: a unit of MCs equipped with stormshields and powerfists for 3++ and S10 melee attacks. All non Str 10 shooting attacks are incredibly inefficient against them to the point of hilarity.
Scatbike: fast, has too much armor, and can kill too many models from 36" away, including SHWs.

And so and so forth.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
...anyway, in another attempt to steer the thread on-course, why so little love for the Medusa Strike Force? As far as I'm seeing, most the discussion about that detachment is "super-Smash" and leaves it at that, but there looks to be more to it than that.

You don't get free transports like the Gladius, so it may actually be worth looking at the Stormlance instead. For a core, you can grab 3 Marine squads in Lasplas Razorbacks. The Razorbacks move 6, disembark their dudes 3" away, the dudes tap a unit at 24" before moving back into their transport, then the transport fires at two targets (thanks to POTMS) before moving another D6. If a unit is near an objective, you reroll to-hit so there's even less penalty to not taking the TL lascannon/assault cannon than before.

Your Marines get in-built FNP (and the 10th company Auxiliary in particular becomes really annoying to flush out for its cost, plua POTMS is a cute bonus for any Storm Speeders that can now split fire between their Cerebrus Launcher and Multimelta, and Precision Shots on a combi-grav are also cute in their own way), and your Bike Command Squad gets it on 3+ (not to mention it's also moving 2d6 after shooting). And to top it off, your Warlord is getting a second Strategic Trait. Although you don't get the sheer number of transports you would get from doing a Khan Gladius, your guys will also last longer overall once their transports do get popped, and their additional mobility once on-foot will help them get to the objectives in the first place, which in many cases can be a fair tradeoff vs losing obsec...at least as long as you can space right and protect against Jetbikes grabbing them first.

It definitely looks to have a lot more potential than the initial inclination to use it for running Smashstars.

I suspect the AoD meta-detachments get no love because the Gladius is broken enough to make them irrelevant/redundant.

That said I do like getting the 30k Salamanders' +S flamers ported over. Granted, the most cost effective way to take advantage of them (HF Landspeeders) is also utterly unfluffy (Nocturne's gravity is weird and makes Land Speeders not work).

Of the others the armoured spearhead detachment suffers from not letting you use Forge World vehicles, most of the SM motor pool is trapped in 5th. The White Scars and Imperial Fists detachments don't really add that much over their Chapter Tactics, if the White Scars one made any of your units faster or if the Imperial Fists gave some sort of pseudo-Fury of the Legion attack they'd be more useful.

I do agree that the Fist of Medusa is fabulous, the benefits are all useful and easy to take advantage of. It actually makes me ask (I know I'm about to get mocked for asking) whether I'd rather have a mechanized army that's larger from free transports or one where the infantry is tougher and the vehicles get to go 12" and still shoot, it makes the decision sort of relevant rather than making it completely automatic.

The Raven Guard one seems like it opens up an interesting alternate approach, it's built to play to the objectives and gets people places quickly. ATSKNF coupled with Know When To Fade lets you almost simulate Warp Spiders' hop-away trick to a limited extent, and you've got the most interesting Warlord Trait table in the book backing it up.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Martel732 wrote:...stomp off.

I see what you did there...

...anyway, in another attempt to steer the thread on-course, why so little love for the Medusa Strike Force? As far as I'm seeing, most the discussion about that detachment is "super-Smash" and leaves it at that, but there looks to be more to it than that.

You don't get free transports like the Gladius, so it may actually be worth looking at the Stormlance instead. For a core, you can grab 3 Marine squads in Lasplas Razorbacks. The Razorbacks move 6, disembark their dudes 3" away, the dudes tap a unit at 24" before moving back into their transport, then the transport fires at two targets (thanks to POTMS) before moving another D6. If a unit is near an objective, you reroll to-hit so there's even less penalty to not taking the TL lascannon/assault cannon than before.

Your Marines get in-built FNP (and the 10th company Auxiliary in particular becomes really annoying to flush out for its cost, plua POTMS is a cute bonus for any Storm Speeders that can now split fire between their Cerebrus Launcher and Multimelta, and Precision Shots on a combi-grav are also cute in their own way), and your Bike Command Squad gets it on 3+ (not to mention it's also moving 2d6 after shooting). And to top it off, your Warlord is getting a second Strategic Trait. Although you don't get the sheer number of transports you would get from doing a Khan Gladius, your guys will also last longer overall once their transports do get popped, and their additional mobility once on-foot will help them get to the objectives in the first place, which in many cases can be a fair tradeoff vs losing obsec...at least as long as you can space right and protect against Jetbikes grabbing them first.

It definitely looks to have a lot more potential than the initial inclination to use it for running Smashstars.

I like it a lot - but more for spamming vindies and predators. Why the heck cant this formation take space marine command tanks as command? That would be a ton of fun.

The Razorbacks move 6, disembark their dudes 3" away, the dudes tap a unit at 24" before moving back into their transport,

Is that a formation rule? Disemb and reemb in the same turn? Cool.

 Ratius wrote:

The Razorbacks move 6, disembark their dudes 3" away, the dudes tap a unit at 24" before moving back into their transport,

Is that a formation rule? Disemb and reemb in the same turn? Cool.

It's one of the alternate demi-companies in AoD. The other one has Scouts mixed in and lets them lend Outflank and Ignores Cover to other units.


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 Xenomancers wrote:

I like it a lot - but more for spamming vindies and predators. Why the heck cant this formation take space marine command tanks as command? That would be a ton of fun.

The only command tanks off the top of my head are the one-off Warhammer World thing (which is never going to be printed again or included in any books) or Forge World (which don't get to be in Codex formations with the cool kids unless they're Eldar).

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Ratius wrote:

The Razorbacks move 6, disembark their dudes 3" away, the dudes tap a unit at 24" before moving back into their transport,

Is that a formation rule? Disemb and reemb in the same turn? Cool.

It's one of the alternate demi-companies in AoD. The other one has Scouts mixed in and lets them lend Outflank and Ignores Cover to other units.


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 Xenomancers wrote:

I like it a lot - but more for spamming vindies and predators. Why the heck cant this formation take space marine command tanks as command? That would be a ton of fun.

The only command tanks off the top of my head are the one-off Warhammer World thing (which is never going to be printed again or included in any books) or Forge World (which don't get to be in Codex formations with the cool kids unless they're Eldar).

The anvil strike force is essentially the vanilla formation in AOD can take the command tanks from warhammer world. It's a mechanized themed formation too but instead of POTMS you ignore crew shaken and stunned results. Overall I prefer POTMS. It's just unfortunate that the command tanks aren't available in medusa as well. I'm sure the iron hands have some command LR too.

 Ratius wrote:

The Razorbacks move 6, disembark their dudes 3" away, the dudes tap a unit at 24" before moving back into their transport,

Is that a formation rule? Disemb and reemb in the same turn? Cool.

Yup. The formation is very similar to the Battle Demi-company, with the exception that it cannot take any Dreadnoughts or Centurions. You don't get Obsec or the free use of Tactical Doctrine, but in exchange, the entire formation (vehicles included) re-rolls to hit any enemy unit that controls an objective, Bikes/Jump Infantry from the formation move 2d6 after shooting, and anything else from the formation moves 1d6 after shooting. You can't assault after doing this, but if a unit is entirely within 2" of its transport, it can re-embark it. (And yup, those are all formation rules).

Combine this with the vehicles getting POTMS and IWND, and the vehicles moving after shooting, as well as the bonus FNP/POTMS being able to affect other units across the detachment and there's a lot of potential for the formation's benefits to snowball into something brutal.

The next question is whether it'll make Martel happier to know that the Blood Angels' unique Rite of War in the Legion list is a thing that's OP that nobody knows about. All its Jump Infantry automatically arrive from Reserves on turn one, get a 5+ cover save the turn they land, have I5 on the charge, Pinning on all their weapons in an environment where almost nobody is immune to it, and have +1 to all to-wound rolls when they get into a fight (which is very slightly worse than +1S, it doesn't let you wound T S+4 but it lets you wound T S+3 on a 5+).

(This is also the version of the Legion list where Assault Marines come in squads of 20 for about 15pts/model with jump packs, and can have loose Apothecaries bolted on for 35pts (50 with a jump pack))

(I suspect it'll be even scarier once the BA get their unique units in the Terra book)

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The next question is whether it'll make Martel happier to know that the Blood Angels' unique Rite of War in the Legion list is a thing that's OP that nobody knows about. All its Jump Infantry automatically arrive from Reserves on turn one, get a 5+ cover save the turn they land, have I5 on the charge, Pinning on all their weapons in an environment where almost nobody is immune to it, and have +1 to all to-wound rolls when they get into a fight (which is very slightly worse than +1S, it doesn't let you wound T S+4 but it lets you wound T S+3 on a 5+).

(This is also the version of the Legion list where Assault Marines come in squads of 20 for about 15pts/model with jump packs, and can have loose Apothecaries bolted on for 35pts (50 with a jump pack))

(I suspect it'll be even scarier once the BA get their unique units in the Terra book)

Sounds pretty good - but still just assault marines. Can't even charge turn 1.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The next question is whether it'll make Martel happier to know that the Blood Angels' unique Rite of War in the Legion list is a thing that's OP that nobody knows about. All its Jump Infantry automatically arrive from Reserves on turn one, get a 5+ cover save the turn they land, have I5 on the charge, Pinning on all their weapons in an environment where almost nobody is immune to it, and have +1 to all to-wound rolls when they get into a fight (which is very slightly worse than +1S, it doesn't let you wound T S+4 but it lets you wound T S+3 on a 5+).

(This is also the version of the Legion list where Assault Marines come in squads of 20 for about 15pts/model with jump packs, and can have loose Apothecaries bolted on for 35pts (50 with a jump pack))

(I suspect it'll be even scarier once the BA get their unique units in the Terra book)

Sounds pretty good - but still just assault marines. Can't even charge turn 1.

I'm trying to get them to one-round a Wraithknight but I need to get them all to S5 and I don't think that's happening without psychic powers.

On the flipside, if you hit the Wraithknight with Misfortune, then 1 in 3 attacks will be Rending anyway...

 MagicJuggler wrote:
On the flipside, if you hit the Wraithknight with Misfortune, then 1 in 3 attacks will be Rending anyway...

That's a great point. In fact - it's key to the +1 roll to wound function. Give the sarge lightning claws for sure get misfortune and you have a pretty beast mode wound grinding unit for relatively cheap.

 BBAP wrote:


I think we're done here.

Well, I mean if you're done I guess we all ought to head for the exits ourself.

For further comic irony (given Martel's hatred of it) let's see if we can do something fun with the Blood Angels' semi-unique gun in 30k: the prototype Illastus-pattern Assault Cannon!

Any model (including vehicles) in the Blood Angels list can swap heavy flamers for assault cannons at +5pts, unfortunately this doesn't enable the hilarious Malcador Defender rebuild the way the Salamanders' power to swap heavy bolters for heavy flamers does. What we get instead is Armoured Breakthrough-detatchment Dakkamobile 2001.

It is, at first glance, is a plain, ordinary Predator. Before you turn over and go elsewhere it's 105pts, Fast, and mounts a twin-linked assault cannon in the turret and two assault cannons in the sponsons, making it a Baal Predator+, comes in squadrons of three, and sits squarely in your Troops selection.

The next place to go with the assault cannon swap is the humble Rhino, because 30k tanks are allowed to staple on a pintle heavy flamer for 10pts. There are no Razorbacks in 30k, but it doesn't matter, because for the low, low price of 50pts you get a Rhino, with full-on ten-model transport capacity, the top hatch, Fast in the armoured detachment, a storm bolter, and, you guessed it, another assault cannon!

The Malcador, a baby superheavy so small it needs to be squadronable and doesn't take a Lord of War slot, can cart around four assault cannons as secondary weapons on top of its main armament. 315pts nets you a 14-13-12 superheavy with six hull points, the power to fire its battle cannon at full BS after moving Flat Out, and four assault cannons with full split fire capabilities when it's moving normal speed.

And for the grand finale in the hilarious festival of rotary dakka we come to the Legion Heavy Support Squad. 285pts for ten Space Marines with assault cannons.

Yes. You heard me. Ten assault cannons. Forty S6/AP4 Rending shots at 24" range. We've reached firepower parity with scatterbikes at last, even if they can't actually go anywhere under their own power.

As a postscript to this whole exercise Salamanders are allowed to swap heavy bolters for heavy flamers at no cost on units that aren't normally allowed to, which gives rise to the hilarious and absurd Leaking Teakettle-Pattern Malcador Defender. It's technically illegal under the current Legion list's sidebar on superheavies and requires a few tweaks, but it's funny enough that I will describe it anyway. It is 325pts for a 14-13-12 6-HP superheavy with a hull-mounted demolisher cannon and seven S6 heavy flamers ringing the hull. And since it's a superheavy it gets to go 12" in between bouts of setting everyone around it on fire.


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(Actually I seriously think I might be on to something with the Blood Angels dakkamobile, especially given that you're allowed to leave the four-shot autocannon in the turret instead of the assault cannon. 105pts for all that in Troops could turn nasty.)

30k is quite interesting but I don't think it counts as 'units in your codex'.

What's the power level like between 30k and 40k armies?

'My Codex' is a weird one in 30k, my army is Salamanders, but the BA are using the same basic Legions Astartes list. It's sort of my Codex but a different supplement?

Barring standout special characters (mostly since I can't/haven't checked them all) 30k is probably mid-high-tier by comparison to 40k. They won't out-cheese Craftworlders, can't bring three hundred points of free transports, can't charge out of reserves, and can't skip out on taking Troops, but they're the origin of all the fancy toys the Space Marines can pull out of IA2 and have a few tricks up their sleeve that have been forgotten these days. Game size used to be a bigger issue but they sent the Delegatus and Pride of the Legion along to let flexible Elites units sit in Troops if you need to play a game where you can't take 400pts of bolter blocks and have enough left over to do anything.

If you sat down to a game against a Legion list most of the time you'd just find it was a Space Marine army built for the basic dudes to do things instead of relying on shenanigans to function. You'd also be shocked and amazed at your ability to Sweeping Advance them (in the 31st Milennium ATSKNF is Ultramarines Legion Tactics, the rest of us do cooler things instead).

 BBAP wrote:

It has 6 wounds. Shoot stuff at it, it'll die.

Statistically, i need 81 tankbusta to down a wraithknight. they alone cost 1053 points. Than they need transports - let's pick the cheapest ones and assume i pack 10 per trukk - that's 350 extra points.

So, i need >1400 points of shooting to kill a 300 pt unit and that's the most point effective i can get with a codex. Will need 122 lootas to do the same thing - that's 1701 points. You're forgetting that not everyone has grav, str d or worthwhile superheavies/gargants.

He already stomped off in a tizzy. Because math is hard.

Martel732 wrote:
Your arguments all neglect cost effectiveness. You neglect the obscenely low cost of said WK.

And yours neglect the cost of all the other units in the army, along with their capabilities. You think Scatbikes distort spacetime around them such that they are always out of bolter range of every unit on the table. You think every Eldar player is running 11 min squads of Scatbikes, or that any Eldar player could run more than 4-6 without seriously diminishing the effectiveness of their army.

You think Gladus is OP but Drop Pods suck.

Just... yeah.

Also you will never have all those meltas within range.

You ***just*** said "they won't send the Bikes, they'll send Spiders and WKs". I'm not walking up on the thing; it's walking up on me. If it does, it dies. If it walks past me, it ends up in range of my backfield Melta and it dies.

If instead of running Sisters, I run an army optimised for 7th Edition, like my Genestealer Cult, I run a few Ambush 6ers into the Wraithknight and kill it from out of Ongoing Reserve. 3 min squads of Claw-Morphs will kill it. That's 3 squads total; I'd need to put more than that into it to generate the 60 S7 Rending attacks the Claw-Morphs can do, because I need to stop it Overwatching the Morphs and account for the ones it'll kill etc etc.

Let's say for argument's sake that requires 4 units of Claw-Morphs and 2 units of Acolytes/ Neophytes to eat Overwatch. That's about 300pts of dudes to kill the Wraithknight.

The WK isn't the problem. Your Codex is the problem.

 koooaei wrote:
Statistically, i need 81 tankbusta [etc etc etc]

165pts of Claw-Morphs will kill a Wraithknight. That's 3 min squads out of the 8-10 I have in my GSC army. Three squads of Battle Sisters will do likewise. The problem is your Codex, not the Wraithknight.

So, i need >1400 points of shooting to kill a 300 pt unit and that's the most point effective i can get with a codex. Will need 122 lootas to do the same thing - that's 1701 points. You're forgetting that not everyone has grav, str d or worthwhile superheavies/gargants.

QED, brah.


EDIT: I'm not going to respond to your baiting - I'll report it to the mods. If you want to talk about why you're wrong, feel free. If you want to bait me and generally be a ween, do it by PM. Nobody else wants to read that gak.

Hyperbole makes your argument much weaker.

I've seen 5-8 squads used effectively frequently.11 squads is ararity, but still not so many points that the list is crippled. Again this is only possible because s6 is the magical sweet spot.

I'd be curious to know what posters' definitions of OP are. For me lots of units are overpowered because the default units I compare to are the classic units that have been around forever and haven't changed much; tactical squads, dreadnoughts, ork boyz, guard platoons, predators, CC carnifexes, gaunts, guardians... units that (for the most part) are considered bad because they've been left behind by power creep. In an ideal 40k these units would be just as effective as wraithknights, scat bikes and any other unit

I would almost argue that as a whole, the 6e Eldar Codex was easier to build a TAC list with and was scarier overall compared to the current one.

With the changes to monofilament and Serpent Shields, as well as the removal of Laser Lock, cover-killing requires far more resource investment (don't get me wrong, Skatach Wraithknights rock, but for that point cost they better), especially since Nightspinners require squadroning to really reach their potential. Add the removal of the Mantle of the Laughing God and Malefic Daemonology from Farseers, and whole the Eldar army throws out a lot more shots and is harder to pin down, it's a lot less durable compared to its previous incarnation.

Martel732 wrote:
Hyperbole makes your argument much weaker.

Where's the hyperbole?

I've seen 5-8 squads used effectively frequently

Yes, because at that level you have plenty of spare capacity to take stuff that can kill what Scatbikes can't.

11 squads is ararity but still not so many points that the list is crippled.

Show me a list with 11 Scatbikes that retains any functionality beyond being able to tear up light mech armies that deploy 100% of their stuff on the board. Preferably one which doesn't have such a huge board presence that it's tripping over its own arse while trying to move around.

Again this is only possible because s6 is the magical sweet spot.

It's always been powerful. The Eldar get a lot of it on highly mobile platforms, which makes it even more powerful. Powerful does not mean OP.

And we're done here. Some people can't have nice things.