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 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
@BBAP - bolters are range 24" Scatter laser are range 36" and have about 5x the offensive botential to a bolter. Bikes almost move 2x as fast. You will never shoot a scatter bike with a bolter unless you are in a drop pod. Why the heck would you ever put tac marines in a drop pod?

To wreck the gunline armies that don't want you to be able to plant units with their own portable cover in their deployment zone on turn one?

I don't know a single gunline that gets wrecked by tactical marines. It's at best a break even sitatuion for the tacs because they aren't cheap 105 min in a pod with no special weapons and no ability to survive the return fire.

 BBAP wrote:

You're making the same mistake Jancoran made - thinking it's just a case of keeping them safe from shooting. P.

Lol. Yes. thats the "mistake" I'm making. Only thats not a mistake.

Like I said...each passing post is affirmation that it deserves to be on the list of underestimated things. What faction do you actually play in competitive games? When was your last tournaent win? What was your list in that tournament? Since we're all sharing and since you demand that anyone who claims anything prove their claims and so on. While you're at it, where do you regularly post for your local gaming group? I've given you mine.

Someone who speaks to me and others like this surely is ranked himself in the ITC as well. What gaming club are you in, as they are all ranked here:
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/frontline-gamings-independent-tournament-circuit/itc-2015-rankings/

You already know mine and you can easily enough search for our players on that list.

Please tell me who you are and what gives you the right to be this dismissive to those who are actually competing. since we're dismissing anyone without any chops, what are yours?

 Xenomancers wrote:
@BBAP - bolters are range 24" Scatter laser are range 36" and have about 5x the offensive botential to a bolter. Bikes move 2x as fast. You will never shoot a scatter bike with a bolter unless you are in a drop pod. Why the heck would you ever put tac marines in a drop pod?

Because evidently Eldar players are too stupid to realize that 12" + 36" > 6" + 24".

Martel732 wrote:
As I said, LoS blocking terrain helps Eldar more than hurts them.

You're wrong. I don't know what else to say.

"This is you ruining Codex: Craftworlds. "

Hardly. That unit will still be nasty.

Yes, but there'll be less of them. Eldar are already fielding 25-40 models max at 1500pts; start jacking up the price of their units and that drops further. Marines can cram that into 1250pts. Are Marines OP or undercosted? No, they just have a different design philosophy.

No one cares about bolters anyway.

Speak for yourself. My units have them, I'm going to use them.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
...Everywhere?...

War Walkers

AV10 Open-Topped vehicles? In 7th Ed? Really?

Wave Serpents

One shuriken catapult and one shuriken cannon at base. Woohoo, infantry-shredder! Except no.

Dark Reapers

... provided you upgrade them to have AT missiles.

One-gun-per-three scatterbikes.

As long as the upgrade is free and the unit remains at its current cost it might work.

Guardian Defenders

Guardsmen. Can't harm Rhinos unless they take a Platform.

Dire Avengers.

Can't harm Rhinos. Are generally awful.

All the other stuff Scatterbikes have made redundant and relegated to a shelf collecting dust.

The fact these units are bad is not because Scatbikes are good. it's because Phil Kelly wrote the Codex. He specialises in making a single exceptional build surrounded by rubbish units.

I'm sorry, but the idea that scatterbikes are actually integral to the normal operation of the army is silly. I've been playing Mechdar/Aspects for closing on ten years now and it works just fine with no bikes.

There's a difference between "works just fine" and "is balanced for the Edition meta". My Sisters work just fine. They're not balanced for the Edition meta.

Like I said before, you can build an army that "works just fine" without being "balanced" if you like, but you don't get to whine about OP if you do.

I think you were supposed to get that "...how much do you want three models to cost?..." is the wrong question, since there are quite obviously units where three models are 50+ points each and absolutely worth it.

But those units have more going for them than an MEQ statline, an Eldar Jetbike and a Scatterlaser. That's why they cost what they do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:

 BBAP wrote:

You're making the same mistake Jancoran made - thinking it's just a case of keeping them safe from shooting. P.

Lol. Yes. thats the "mistake" I'm making. Only thats not a mistake.

It is. You charged nothing your opponent didn't feed you in any of the games you played. Keeping them safe from shooting is far from their only issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Tac marines aren't wrecking anything. Get real. Even in a gladius, they are taken just to be obj sec bullet sponges. They are good in a horde format. Hooray.

How would you know? You don't even fire their bolters.

That's what I thought.

"Are Marines OP or undercosted?"

Gladius sure as feth is. Arguably skyhammer.

"
Yes, but there'll be less of them"

As there should be, given how insane their rules are.

"How would you know? You don't even fire their bolters."

Of course I do. Now you're being deliberately obtuse. I'm just realistic about how much damage that will actually do.

 BBAP wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
As I said, LoS blocking terrain helps Eldar more than hurts them.

You're wrong. I don't know what else to say.

Dude... you don't have to be right, but at least be capable of arguing your points with some degree of clarity and respect.

I disagree with both Martel and Jancoran on occasion. But I don't think I've ever seen them unable to at least define *why* they support something.

If you can't take being challenged without shutting down or taking it personally, you need to sharpen up.

Martel732 wrote:
"Are Marines OP or undercosted?"

Gladius sure as feth is. Arguably skyhammer.

"
Yes, but there'll be less of them"

As there should be, given how insane their rules are.

"How would you know? You don't even fire their bolters."

Of course I do. Now you're being deliberately obtuse. I'm just realistic about how much damage will actually do.

They are the best options but OP? come on. These formations are useless vs daemons and tau and necrons and any sort of deathstar build. Decent vs eldar. Thats about it. Gladius will wreck BA - I'll give you that. This is why eldar bring a riptide wing. To get their interceptor to counter skyhammer and if they encounter gladius - absolutely Ravage the free razors with 6 str 9 ap2 ordnance shots a turn.

Or 72 S6 Rending shots. Don't forget a Culexus to turn off deathstars...

Gladius is absolutely OP because of obj sec and free stuffs.

 Jancoran wrote:
Please tell me who you are and what gives you the right to be this dismissive to those who are actually competing. since we're dismissing anyone without any chops, what are yours?

I'm not going to tell you. I don't need to. Unlike you, I don't demand respect or crave validation for my 40k achievements, whatever they may (or may not) be. It's also entirely irrelevant - personal pedigree has no bearing whatsoever on what units can and can't do. I could go to a US GT and table Matt Root with mech Sisters, and it still wouldn't change the fact mech Sisters are a sub-optimal list in 7th Edition. I'm not saying I could do that - I'm saying even if I did, the facts would remain as they are. This is what I've been trying to tell you. If you read more than a single line of each post you'll see.

Your "chops" became an issue because you tried to use them to argue that Repentia were an awesome unit - the evidence you provided was wholly insufficient to back that up. I could've just said that, of course, but you'd been a condescending wretch to me - personally - up until that point, so I decided to give you some stick. That was childish, but hey - I guess we're both unpleasant in our own way.

This is the last time I'm going to make any personal comment to you in this thread. We've been warned once by the mods already, and frankly the whole thing got pathetic two pages back. If you want to discuss Repentia with me, start by addressing any of the stuff you've glossed over so far. If you just want to jab at me some I'll block you, and you can be someone else's problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 BBAP wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
As I said, LoS blocking terrain helps Eldar more than hurts them.

You're wrong. I don't know what else to say.

Dude... you don't have to be right, but at least be capable of arguing your points with some degree of clarity and respect.

The most concise way to demonstrate my point here is to resort to trigonometry. Nobody's going to read that. The other way is to write out a tactica explaining how to use cover to force ranged units to come to you. Nobody's going to read that, either. Everyone just wants to whine about OP.

The other way to do it is to say "play the game". But if I do that, you'll come along and whinge about "disrespect".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Of course I do. Now you're being deliberately obtuse. I'm just realistic about how much damage that will actually do.

So am I. They need to kill 1 Scatbike to force a Morale check and scoop 4 shots out of the return fire, and they will do that. Not every squad every turn, but it'll happen.

You seem to think it never will though. I don't know what to say in that case. Keep believing you lose games because stuff is OP.

I do play the game. The Eldar are never going to send the scatterbikes to you. They're going to send WK and warp spiders. They're not going to open up their bikes to the possibility of taking damage if they don't have to.

It sounds like you play against Eldar players who don't know how to use their own units.

"Keep believing you lose games because stuff is OP."

I lose to Orks, too. And they have nothing OP. But it's not nearly as spectacularly humiliating as Eldar tabling me by turn 4. I don't know how 1/3 of a list spitting out 96 S6 shots is not OP.... That's the equivalent of 160 bolter shots vs T4. Do you have 160 sisters to shoot back?

Anybody else disappointed by the moderation on this board?

All right. We're getting grossly off topic again. We've established that Martel thinks everything is OP and BBAP thinks nothing is OP.

Getting back to the topic at hand apparently I need to bring up Drop Pods as a unit that's grossly OP that nobody else thinks is. 35pts for three AV12 all-round hull points, half of which automatically arrive from Reserves on turn one by Deep Strike, with no risk of Mishap so long as you plant them at least 12" from the edge of the board, that can plant a wide variety of effective units on the table, give them cover, and sit around being a nuisance with a storm bolter for the rest of the game. Not to mention they've got ObSec if they brought a Troops unit in, are free in a Gladius, and can be taken in spare FA slots in a CAD to make Drop Pod Assault get more stuff in automatically on turn one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Anybody else disappointed by the moderation on this board?

They respond quickly to the yellow triangle if you think it's necessary.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
All right. We're getting grossly off topic again. We've established that Martel thinks everything is OP and BBAP thinks nothing is OP.

Getting back to the topic at hand apparently I need to bring up Drop Pods as a unit that's grossly OP that nobody else thinks is. 35pts for three AV12 all-round hull points, half of which automatically arrive from Reserves on turn one by Deep Strike, with no risk of Mishap so long as you plant them at least 12" from the edge of the board, that can plant a wide variety of effective units on the table, give them cover, and sit around being a nuisance with a storm bolter for the rest of the game. Not to mention they've got ObSec if they brought a Troops unit in, are free in a Gladius, and can be taken in spare FA slots in a CAD to make Drop Pod Assault get more stuff in automatically on turn one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Anybody else disappointed by the moderation on this board?

They respond quickly to the yellow triangle if you think it's necessary.

Drop pods are highly overrated outside Skyhammer. The bottom line here is that most truly OP units have been discussed to death. There aren't that many secrets left. If a unit has a substantial skill barrier or a significant chance of being ineffective, that seems to not fit the bill of OP.

Martel732 wrote:
Drop pods are highly overrated outside Skyhammer. The bottom line here is that most truly OP units have been discussed to death. There aren't that many secrets left. If a unit has a substantial skill barrier or a significant chance of being ineffective, that seems to not fit the bill of OP.

...

...

The ability to Deep Strike whatever you want on turn one with no chance of failure is highly overrated.

...

....

...What.

Without being able to assault, having imperial weapons to shoot, and being stuck on foot afterwards is kinda meh. Oh, and it's obvious it's coming, so counter deployment is a real thing. Drop pods would be much dirtier with secret lists.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
@BBAP - bolters are range 24" Scatter laser are range 36" and have about 5x the offensive botential to a bolter. Bikes almost move 2x as fast. You will never shoot a scatter bike with a bolter unless you are in a drop pod. Why the heck would you ever put tac marines in a drop pod?

To wreck the gunline armies that don't want you to be able to plant units with their own portable cover in their deployment zone on turn one?

That's what Sternguard are for not Tactical Marines. Both will die at the same rate though.

Martel732 wrote:
I do play the game. The Eldar are never going to send the scatterbikes to you.

They're not going to send the Scatbikes into RF range. However, unless you play with a single pillar to block LoS, remove Wrecks from the table, and have like 5 units in your army, it's just not feasible for the Eldar player to keep all of his Scatbikes out of bolter range of your entire army 100% of the time while he's repositioning them to see around LoS-blocking cover and/ or positioning them to contest objectives. It's just not going to happen on any table that's even remotely sensible. He **has** to risk them being plinked.

They're going to send WK and warp spiders.

The Warp Spiders have to come into RF range, and risk not getting back out again, to do anything - that's why they're not OP; but I thought the Wraithknight was OP because it was killing 100% of everything from 36" away and couldn't possibly be killed? If it's walking into a stack of Melta/ Grav it's going to die, right?

Sternguard are an expensive gambit for sure.

Martel732 wrote:
Gladius is absolutely OP because of obj sec and free stuffs.

Oh hell yeah it is, even better with dark angels since they only need to spend 55 points for some scouts to complete it.

I agree its OP as all hell.

On the original topic, one unit that a lot of people dont realize is OP, or well, sorta OP, is doing a dev squad, kitted with either all melta or grav, and have a terminator captain in cataphractii armor attacked so they all get Slow and Purposeful.

Put them in a drop pod, drop them right by an enemy deathstar, and watch it vanish off the board under a hail of grav or melta fire(If its a vehicle)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Sternguard are an expensive gambit for sure.

Personal experience here, but the best way i have seen them run is as salamander in drop pod, or as imperial fist for all the special issue ammunition.

 BBAP wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I do play the game. The Eldar are never going to send the scatterbikes to you.

They're not going to send the Scatbikes into RF range. However, unless you play with a single pillar to block LoS, remove Wrecks from the table, and have like 5 units in your army, it's just not feasible for the Eldar player to keep all of his Scatbikes out of bolter range of your entire army 100% of the time while he's repositioning them to see around LoS-blocking cover and/ or positioning them to contest objectives. It's just not going to happen on any table that's even remotely sensible. He **has** to risk them being plinked.

They're going to send WK and warp spiders.

The Warp Spiders have to come into RF range, and risk not getting back out again, to do anything - that's why they're not OP; but I thought the Wraithknight was OP because it was killing 100% of everything from 36" away and couldn't possibly be killed? If it's walking into a stack of Melta/ Grav it's going to die, right?

You won't win the a battle of plinking. They have the firepower of 160 boltguns outside rapid fire range. Even if you LoS say 1/3 of them out of effectiveness, that's still more firepower than your entire sisters list.

WK is OP because of the resource imbalance of what it costs to field vs what it takes to kill. WKs likely won't die from a few squads' melta/grav. Especially the sword/board ones. The wraithcannon version is less likely to close in on grav, but melta is not a problem because of low ROF.

"On the original topic, one unit that a lot of people dont realize is OP, or well, sorta OP, is doing a dev squad, kitted with either all melta or grav, and have a terminator captain in cataphractii armor attacked so they all get Slow and Purposeful.

Put them in a drop pod, drop them right by an enemy deathstar, and watch it vanish off the board under a hail of grav or melta fire(If its a vehicle) "

That's a legit contender because it mimics Skyhammer.

Martel732 wrote:
Sternguard are an expensive gambit for sure.

Well two of the ammo types got things going for them. 2+ Poison can finish off smaller squads and the AP3 one can plausibly force Jinking on a larger squad, potentially ruining their firepower for at least one turn. Assuming they elect to do so though so that's a gambit.

Martel732 wrote:
Gladius is absolutely OP because of obj sec and free stuffs.

What is it OP against specifically?

Demonic incursion with at minimum 6 ap3 torrent flamers? FMC with nova spells? Nope - can't even compete with that. turn 2-3 table.
Another Gladius? Go first - you win.
SW deathstars capable of charging half your army in a single turn? Nope - might not even kill a single model. (possible win if you essentially cheat and take really long turns)
Tau suit spam with SS? Nope - just too much firepower for av 11 tin cans to live more than 1 turn. turn 3-4 mop up...maybe they'll call time before you are tabled.
Eldar? Possibly win if you get to go first and gib the WK before it's invis/fortune - possible win if objectives are really spread out.
Nids? Easy win - just park on obectives being picked apart by flyrants - win by points. Kill almost nothing.
Necrons? Hope to hold objectives - kill almost nothing - before the wraiths you can't kill destroy your entire army...could go ether way.

It's just not a great match-up for gladius ever. How is it OP? You at best have some even chances and half the field just tables you in 3-4 turns.

Sternguard are okay vs scatterbikes, but the units of 3 bikes scheme really limits what they can do. After they drop, they're dead men walking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Gladius is absolutely OP because of obj sec and free stuffs.

What is it OP against specifically?

Demonic incursion with at minimum 6 ap3 torrent flamers? FMC with nova spells? Nope - can't even compete with that. turn 2-3 table.
Another Gladius? Go first - you win.
SW deathstars capable of charging half your army in a single turn? Nope - might not even kill a single model. (possible win if you essentially cheat and take really long turns)
Tau suit spam with SS? Nope - just too much firepower for av 11 tin cans to live more than 1 turn. turn 3-4 mop up...maybe they'll call time before you are tabled.
Eldar? Possibly win if you get to go first and gib the WK before it's invis/fortune - possible win if objectives are really spread out.
Nids? Easy win - just park on obectives being picked apart by flyrants - win by points. Kill almost nothing.
Necrons? Hope to hold objectives - kill almost nothing - before the wraiths you can't kill destroy your entire army...could go ether way.

It's just not a great match-up for gladius ever. How is it OP? You at best have some even chances and half the field just tables you in 3-4 turns.

I think with so few vehicles dying to exlodes results it becomes progressively harder to even target the remaining marines for many of these lists. I've seen Tau players do the numbers on trying to kill off the Gladius; it's not pretty even with Riptide wing. Plus the gladius can have quite a few scouting grav cannons.

Martel732 wrote:
Without being able to assault, having imperial weapons to shoot, and being stuck on foot afterwards is kinda meh. Oh, and it's obvious it's coming, so counter deployment is a real thing. Drop pods would be much dirtier with secret lists.

Frag cannons, massed melta/plasma/grav, and Deathwatch/Sternguard ammo are 'kinda meh' now?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Without being able to assault, having imperial weapons to shoot, and being stuck on foot afterwards is kinda meh. Oh, and it's obvious it's coming, so counter deployment is a real thing. Drop pods would be much dirtier with secret lists.

Frag cannons, massed melta/plasma/grav, and Deathwatch/Sternguard ammo are 'kinda meh'?

Compared to what Xenos are spitting back? Assuming you even survive the interceptor phase? You can't effectively mass melta/plasma/grav, either. You can get combi-sternguard but that's very 5th ed. Also, the more pods you use, you have to buy empty ones or increasingly fragment your own army. I've beaten a lot of lists that would have won if they just used Rhinos instead of Drop pods. Pods are just very gimmicky because you don't have a plan B.

I drop in fragnoughts all the time. No one cares. I guess Orks care. And DE. Certainly not Eldar/Tau/SM.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Gladius is absolutely OP because of obj sec and free stuffs.

What is it OP against specifically?

Demonic incursion with at minimum 6 ap3 torrent flamers? FMC with nova spells? Nope - can't even compete with that. turn 2-3 table.
Another Gladius? Go first - you win.
SW deathstars capable of charging half your army in a single turn? Nope - might not even kill a single model. (possible win if you essentially cheat and take really long turns)
Tau suit spam with SS? Nope - just too much firepower for av 11 tin cans to live more than 1 turn. turn 3-4 mop up...maybe they'll call time before you are tabled.
Eldar? Possibly win if you get to go first and gib the WK before it's invis/fortune - possible win if objectives are really spread out.
Nids? Easy win - just park on obectives being picked apart by flyrants - win by points. Kill almost nothing.
Necrons? Hope to hold objectives - kill almost nothing - before the wraiths you can't kill destroy your entire army...could go ether way.

It's just not a great match-up for gladius ever. How is it OP? You at best have some even chances and half the field just tables you in 3-4 turns.

One of the OP factors is that EVERYTHING, in the army is a objective secured, even transports. As noted, since most vehicles dont go to explodes you basically use them to block LoS.

You can take say 5 drop pods, and bring 3 in on turn one, right ontop of an objective. If your opponent wants it he needs to now kill what ever was inside AND the drop pod. Then of course you get 5 more razorbacks for free so thats 5 free twinlinked heavy bolters which, i know HB arnt that great, but when its free and provides LoS, its pretty nice.

You can very quickly cover the board with Objective secured which is really nice.

Martel732 wrote:
Sternguard are okay vs scatterbikes, but the units of 3 bikes scheme really limits what they can do. After they drop, they're dead men walking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Gladius is absolutely OP because of obj sec and free stuffs.

What is it OP against specifically?

Demonic incursion with at minimum 6 ap3 torrent flamers? FMC with nova spells? Nope - can't even compete with that. turn 2-3 table.
Another Gladius? Go first - you win.
SW deathstars capable of charging half your army in a single turn? Nope - might not even kill a single model. (possible win if you essentially cheat and take really long turns)
Tau suit spam with SS? Nope - just too much firepower for av 11 tin cans to live more than 1 turn. turn 3-4 mop up...maybe they'll call time before you are tabled.
Eldar? Possibly win if you get to go first and gib the WK before it's invis/fortune - possible win if objectives are really spread out.
Nids? Easy win - just park on obectives being picked apart by flyrants - win by points. Kill almost nothing.
Necrons? Hope to hold objectives - kill almost nothing - before the wraiths you can't kill destroy your entire army...could go ether way.

It's just not a great match-up for gladius ever. How is it OP? You at best have some even chances and half the field just tables you in 3-4 turns.

I think with so few vehicles dying to exlodes results it becomes progressively harder to even target the remaining marines for many of these lists. I've seen Tau players do the numbers on trying to kill off the Gladius; it's not pretty even with Riptide wing. Plus the gladius can have quite a few scouting grav cannons.

Depends on the tau list. A buffmander crisis suit list with SS and riptide wing is essentially designed to beat gladius.

Martel732 wrote:
You won't win the a battle of plinking.

Define "win". What's my objective - to kill them all, or to reduce their effectiveness?

WK is OP because of the resource imbalance of what it costs to field vs what it takes to kill.

It has 6 wounds. Shoot stuff at it, it'll die.

WKs likely won't die from a few squads' melta/grav.

Can't feasibly be killed in 1 turn by plinking with AT = OP. Okay.

Especially the sword/board ones

5++/FNP = OP. Okay

The wraithcannon version is less likely to close in on grav, but melta is not a problem because of low ROF.

2 per squad x 10 squads = 20

Low ROF.

Ok.

I think we're done here.