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Your arguments all neglect cost effectiveness. You neglect the obscenely low cost of said WK. Go ahead and stomp off.

Also you will never have all those meltas within range. Meltas suck vs mcs\gmcs because of low rof. I know because i've been stuck using them myself. With faster units to boot

Not sure if my eyes are playing up, but are you comparing 100 marines with 20 meltas to a WK?

So your answer to low rate of fire is to throw that lot at it?


What about the second one and the army it comes with?





It's a fact, melta weapons are a low rate of fire.






You have also just proved Martel right on his own point there.
He says they are OP because the points you must invest to kill them.
Your idea is 100 marines.

Not my personal choice for making melta effective, but hey ho.

Now how are said marines getting anywhere near it without scatterbikes chewing through them?




The WK as Martel said is OP simply because of the investment you must make to ensure the things die.

While I don't mind fighting them, I dislike fighting 2-3 at a time.

Martel732 wrote:...stomp off.

I see what you did there...

...anyway, in another attempt to steer the thread on-course, why so little love for the Medusa Strike Force? As far as I'm seeing, most the discussion about that detachment is "super-Smash" and leaves it at that, but there looks to be more to it than that.

You don't get free transports like the Gladius, so it may actually be worth looking at the Stormlance instead. For a core, you can grab 3 Marine squads in Lasplas Razorbacks. The Razorbacks move 6, disembark their dudes 3" away, the dudes tap a unit at 24" before moving back into their transport, then the transport fires at two targets (thanks to POTMS) before moving another D6. If a unit is near an objective, you reroll to-hit so there's even less penalty to not taking the TL lascannon/assault cannon than before.

Your Marines get in-built FNP (and the 10th company Auxiliary in particular becomes really annoying to flush out for its cost, plus POTMS is a cute bonus for any Storm Speeders that can now split fire between their Cerebrus Launcher and Multimelta, and Precision Shots on a combi-grav are also cute in their own way), and your Bike Command Squad gets it on 3+ (not to mention it's also moving 2d6 after shooting). And to top it off, your Warlord is getting a second Strategic Trait. Although you don't get the sheer number of transports you would get from doing a Khan Gladius, your guys will also last longer overall once their transports do get popped, and their additional mobility once on-foot will help them get to the objectives in the first place, which in many cases can be a fair tradeoff vs losing obsec...at least as long as you can space right and protect against Jetbikes grabbing them first.

It definitely looks to have a lot more potential than the initial inclination to use it for running Smashstars.

 Jackal wrote:
...It's a fact, melta weapons are a low rate of fire...

Point of hilarious irony: Guess where the only melta weapon in the game that isn't low rate of fire is found?

(You're right! It's on a Wraithknight!)

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Jackal wrote:
...It's a fact, melta weapons are a low rate of fire...

Point of hilarious irony: Guess where the only melta weapon in the game that isn't low rate of fire is found?

(You're right! It's on a Wraithknight!)

That big fancy FW dread has one, too. To be fair, here.

Can't forget the Hazard Suit with Fusion Cascader if we're going down that route.

Technically, the only multishot Melta weapon that isn't from Forgeworld is the Heat Ray on the Necron Triarch Stalker. You "could" argue the Helbrute does so too with Fire Frenzy, but technically it's firing weapons twice rather than the weapon getting an improved ROF.

That being said, the Stalker is reasonable enough in its formation. There's skornergy between it and the Praetorians, but they can still DS and act as a pseudo-plasma squad (and MTC protects them if they scatter in Dangerous terrain). Worst comes to worst, 125 pts for an AV 13 MTC walker with a double-shot multimelta that rerolls to hit/wound/pen while making units near it BS 5 is very reasonable. Not OP by any stretch but it's definitely a nice tool to have.

For all of the complaints about grav cannons on other threads, they're actually pretty hard to use with BA. So it's not like I even rely on those to do the job. OP requires a specific set of circumstances, and they're not always the same. The only common denominator is too much table effect for too few points.

WK: offense is not truly off the charts, but it way too hard to kill for its cost. GMC rules are a major kick in everyone's gnards here.
TWC: a unit of MCs equipped with stormshields and powerfists for 3++ and S10 melee attacks. All non Str 10 shooting attacks are incredibly inefficient against them to the point of hilarity.
Scatbike: fast, has too much armor, and can kill too many models from 36" away, including SHWs.

And so and so forth.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
...anyway, in another attempt to steer the thread on-course, why so little love for the Medusa Strike Force? As far as I'm seeing, most the discussion about that detachment is "super-Smash" and leaves it at that, but there looks to be more to it than that.

You don't get free transports like the Gladius, so it may actually be worth looking at the Stormlance instead. For a core, you can grab 3 Marine squads in Lasplas Razorbacks. The Razorbacks move 6, disembark their dudes 3" away, the dudes tap a unit at 24" before moving back into their transport, then the transport fires at two targets (thanks to POTMS) before moving another D6. If a unit is near an objective, you reroll to-hit so there's even less penalty to not taking the TL lascannon/assault cannon than before.

Your Marines get in-built FNP (and the 10th company Auxiliary in particular becomes really annoying to flush out for its cost, plua POTMS is a cute bonus for any Storm Speeders that can now split fire between their Cerebrus Launcher and Multimelta, and Precision Shots on a combi-grav are also cute in their own way), and your Bike Command Squad gets it on 3+ (not to mention it's also moving 2d6 after shooting). And to top it off, your Warlord is getting a second Strategic Trait. Although you don't get the sheer number of transports you would get from doing a Khan Gladius, your guys will also last longer overall once their transports do get popped, and their additional mobility once on-foot will help them get to the objectives in the first place, which in many cases can be a fair tradeoff vs losing obsec...at least as long as you can space right and protect against Jetbikes grabbing them first.

It definitely looks to have a lot more potential than the initial inclination to use it for running Smashstars.

I suspect the AoD meta-detachments get no love because the Gladius is broken enough to make them irrelevant/redundant.

That said I do like getting the 30k Salamanders' +S flamers ported over. Granted, the most cost effective way to take advantage of them (HF Landspeeders) is also utterly unfluffy (Nocturne's gravity is weird and makes Land Speeders not work).

Of the others the armoured spearhead detachment suffers from not letting you use Forge World vehicles, most of the SM motor pool is trapped in 5th. The White Scars and Imperial Fists detachments don't really add that much over their Chapter Tactics, if the White Scars one made any of your units faster or if the Imperial Fists gave some sort of pseudo-Fury of the Legion attack they'd be more useful.

I do agree that the Fist of Medusa is fabulous, the benefits are all useful and easy to take advantage of. It actually makes me ask (I know I'm about to get mocked for asking) whether I'd rather have a mechanized army that's larger from free transports or one where the infantry is tougher and the vehicles get to go 12" and still shoot, it makes the decision sort of relevant rather than making it completely automatic.

The Raven Guard one seems like it opens up an interesting alternate approach, it's built to play to the objectives and gets people places quickly. ATSKNF coupled with Know When To Fade lets you almost simulate Warp Spiders' hop-away trick to a limited extent, and you've got the most interesting Warlord Trait table in the book backing it up.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Martel732 wrote:...stomp off.

I see what you did there...

...anyway, in another attempt to steer the thread on-course, why so little love for the Medusa Strike Force? As far as I'm seeing, most the discussion about that detachment is "super-Smash" and leaves it at that, but there looks to be more to it than that.

You don't get free transports like the Gladius, so it may actually be worth looking at the Stormlance instead. For a core, you can grab 3 Marine squads in Lasplas Razorbacks. The Razorbacks move 6, disembark their dudes 3" away, the dudes tap a unit at 24" before moving back into their transport, then the transport fires at two targets (thanks to POTMS) before moving another D6. If a unit is near an objective, you reroll to-hit so there's even less penalty to not taking the TL lascannon/assault cannon than before.

Your Marines get in-built FNP (and the 10th company Auxiliary in particular becomes really annoying to flush out for its cost, plua POTMS is a cute bonus for any Storm Speeders that can now split fire between their Cerebrus Launcher and Multimelta, and Precision Shots on a combi-grav are also cute in their own way), and your Bike Command Squad gets it on 3+ (not to mention it's also moving 2d6 after shooting). And to top it off, your Warlord is getting a second Strategic Trait. Although you don't get the sheer number of transports you would get from doing a Khan Gladius, your guys will also last longer overall once their transports do get popped, and their additional mobility once on-foot will help them get to the objectives in the first place, which in many cases can be a fair tradeoff vs losing obsec...at least as long as you can space right and protect against Jetbikes grabbing them first.

It definitely looks to have a lot more potential than the initial inclination to use it for running Smashstars.

I like it a lot - but more for spamming vindies and predators. Why the heck cant this formation take space marine command tanks as command? That would be a ton of fun.

The Razorbacks move 6, disembark their dudes 3" away, the dudes tap a unit at 24" before moving back into their transport,

Is that a formation rule? Disemb and reemb in the same turn? Cool.

 Ratius wrote:

The Razorbacks move 6, disembark their dudes 3" away, the dudes tap a unit at 24" before moving back into their transport,

Is that a formation rule? Disemb and reemb in the same turn? Cool.

It's one of the alternate demi-companies in AoD. The other one has Scouts mixed in and lets them lend Outflank and Ignores Cover to other units.


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 Xenomancers wrote:

I like it a lot - but more for spamming vindies and predators. Why the heck cant this formation take space marine command tanks as command? That would be a ton of fun.

The only command tanks off the top of my head are the one-off Warhammer World thing (which is never going to be printed again or included in any books) or Forge World (which don't get to be in Codex formations with the cool kids unless they're Eldar).

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Ratius wrote:

The Razorbacks move 6, disembark their dudes 3" away, the dudes tap a unit at 24" before moving back into their transport,

Is that a formation rule? Disemb and reemb in the same turn? Cool.

It's one of the alternate demi-companies in AoD. The other one has Scouts mixed in and lets them lend Outflank and Ignores Cover to other units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I like it a lot - but more for spamming vindies and predators. Why the heck cant this formation take space marine command tanks as command? That would be a ton of fun.

The only command tanks off the top of my head are the one-off Warhammer World thing (which is never going to be printed again or included in any books) or Forge World (which don't get to be in Codex formations with the cool kids unless they're Eldar).

The anvil strike force is essentially the vanilla formation in AOD can take the command tanks from warhammer world. It's a mechanized themed formation too but instead of POTMS you ignore crew shaken and stunned results. Overall I prefer POTMS. It's just unfortunate that the command tanks aren't available in medusa as well. I'm sure the iron hands have some command LR too.

 Ratius wrote:

The Razorbacks move 6, disembark their dudes 3" away, the dudes tap a unit at 24" before moving back into their transport,

Is that a formation rule? Disemb and reemb in the same turn? Cool.

Yup. The formation is very similar to the Battle Demi-company, with the exception that it cannot take any Dreadnoughts or Centurions. You don't get Obsec or the free use of Tactical Doctrine, but in exchange, the entire formation (vehicles included) re-rolls to hit any enemy unit that controls an objective, Bikes/Jump Infantry from the formation move 2d6 after shooting, and anything else from the formation moves 1d6 after shooting. You can't assault after doing this, but if a unit is entirely within 2" of its transport, it can re-embark it. (And yup, those are all formation rules).

Combine this with the vehicles getting POTMS and IWND, and the vehicles moving after shooting, as well as the bonus FNP/POTMS being able to affect other units across the detachment and there's a lot of potential for the formation's benefits to snowball into something brutal.

The next question is whether it'll make Martel happier to know that the Blood Angels' unique Rite of War in the Legion list is a thing that's OP that nobody knows about. All its Jump Infantry automatically arrive from Reserves on turn one, get a 5+ cover save the turn they land, have I5 on the charge, Pinning on all their weapons in an environment where almost nobody is immune to it, and have +1 to all to-wound rolls when they get into a fight (which is very slightly worse than +1S, it doesn't let you wound T S+4 but it lets you wound T S+3 on a 5+).

(This is also the version of the Legion list where Assault Marines come in squads of 20 for about 15pts/model with jump packs, and can have loose Apothecaries bolted on for 35pts (50 with a jump pack))

(I suspect it'll be even scarier once the BA get their unique units in the Terra book)

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The next question is whether it'll make Martel happier to know that the Blood Angels' unique Rite of War in the Legion list is a thing that's OP that nobody knows about. All its Jump Infantry automatically arrive from Reserves on turn one, get a 5+ cover save the turn they land, have I5 on the charge, Pinning on all their weapons in an environment where almost nobody is immune to it, and have +1 to all to-wound rolls when they get into a fight (which is very slightly worse than +1S, it doesn't let you wound T S+4 but it lets you wound T S+3 on a 5+).

(This is also the version of the Legion list where Assault Marines come in squads of 20 for about 15pts/model with jump packs, and can have loose Apothecaries bolted on for 35pts (50 with a jump pack))

(I suspect it'll be even scarier once the BA get their unique units in the Terra book)

Sounds pretty good - but still just assault marines. Can't even charge turn 1.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The next question is whether it'll make Martel happier to know that the Blood Angels' unique Rite of War in the Legion list is a thing that's OP that nobody knows about. All its Jump Infantry automatically arrive from Reserves on turn one, get a 5+ cover save the turn they land, have I5 on the charge, Pinning on all their weapons in an environment where almost nobody is immune to it, and have +1 to all to-wound rolls when they get into a fight (which is very slightly worse than +1S, it doesn't let you wound T S+4 but it lets you wound T S+3 on a 5+).

(This is also the version of the Legion list where Assault Marines come in squads of 20 for about 15pts/model with jump packs, and can have loose Apothecaries bolted on for 35pts (50 with a jump pack))

(I suspect it'll be even scarier once the BA get their unique units in the Terra book)

Sounds pretty good - but still just assault marines. Can't even charge turn 1.

I'm trying to get them to one-round a Wraithknight but I need to get them all to S5 and I don't think that's happening without psychic powers.

On the flipside, if you hit the Wraithknight with Misfortune, then 1 in 3 attacks will be Rending anyway...

 MagicJuggler wrote:
On the flipside, if you hit the Wraithknight with Misfortune, then 1 in 3 attacks will be Rending anyway...

That's a great point. In fact - it's key to the +1 roll to wound function. Give the sarge lightning claws for sure get misfortune and you have a pretty beast mode wound grinding unit for relatively cheap.

 BBAP wrote:


I think we're done here.

Well, I mean if you're done I guess we all ought to head for the exits ourself.

For further comic irony (given Martel's hatred of it) let's see if we can do something fun with the Blood Angels' semi-unique gun in 30k: the prototype Illastus-pattern Assault Cannon!

Any model (including vehicles) in the Blood Angels list can swap heavy flamers for assault cannons at +5pts, unfortunately this doesn't enable the hilarious Malcador Defender rebuild the way the Salamanders' power to swap heavy bolters for heavy flamers does. What we get instead is Armoured Breakthrough-detatchment Dakkamobile 2001.

It is, at first glance, is a plain, ordinary Predator. Before you turn over and go elsewhere it's 105pts, Fast, and mounts a twin-linked assault cannon in the turret and two assault cannons in the sponsons, making it a Baal Predator+, comes in squadrons of three, and sits squarely in your Troops selection.

The next place to go with the assault cannon swap is the humble Rhino, because 30k tanks are allowed to staple on a pintle heavy flamer for 10pts. There are no Razorbacks in 30k, but it doesn't matter, because for the low, low price of 50pts you get a Rhino, with full-on ten-model transport capacity, the top hatch, Fast in the armoured detachment, a storm bolter, and, you guessed it, another assault cannon!

The Malcador, a baby superheavy so small it needs to be squadronable and doesn't take a Lord of War slot, can cart around four assault cannons as secondary weapons on top of its main armament. 315pts nets you a 14-13-12 superheavy with six hull points, the power to fire its battle cannon at full BS after moving Flat Out, and four assault cannons with full split fire capabilities when it's moving normal speed.

And for the grand finale in the hilarious festival of rotary dakka we come to the Legion Heavy Support Squad. 285pts for ten Space Marines with assault cannons.

Yes. You heard me. Ten assault cannons. Forty S6/AP4 Rending shots at 24" range. We've reached firepower parity with scatterbikes at last, even if they can't actually go anywhere under their own power.

As a postscript to this whole exercise Salamanders are allowed to swap heavy bolters for heavy flamers at no cost on units that aren't normally allowed to, which gives rise to the hilarious and absurd Leaking Teakettle-Pattern Malcador Defender. It's technically illegal under the current Legion list's sidebar on superheavies and requires a few tweaks, but it's funny enough that I will describe it anyway. It is 325pts for a 14-13-12 6-HP superheavy with a hull-mounted demolisher cannon and seven S6 heavy flamers ringing the hull. And since it's a superheavy it gets to go 12" in between bouts of setting everyone around it on fire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Actually I seriously think I might be on to something with the Blood Angels dakkamobile, especially given that you're allowed to leave the four-shot autocannon in the turret instead of the assault cannon. 105pts for all that in Troops could turn nasty.)

30k is quite interesting but I don't think it counts as 'units in your codex'.

What's the power level like between 30k and 40k armies?

'My Codex' is a weird one in 30k, my army is Salamanders, but the BA are using the same basic Legions Astartes list. It's sort of my Codex but a different supplement?

Barring standout special characters (mostly since I can't/haven't checked them all) 30k is probably mid-high-tier by comparison to 40k. They won't out-cheese Craftworlders, can't bring three hundred points of free transports, can't charge out of reserves, and can't skip out on taking Troops, but they're the origin of all the fancy toys the Space Marines can pull out of IA2 and have a few tricks up their sleeve that have been forgotten these days. Game size used to be a bigger issue but they sent the Delegatus and Pride of the Legion along to let flexible Elites units sit in Troops if you need to play a game where you can't take 400pts of bolter blocks and have enough left over to do anything.

If you sat down to a game against a Legion list most of the time you'd just find it was a Space Marine army built for the basic dudes to do things instead of relying on shenanigans to function. You'd also be shocked and amazed at your ability to Sweeping Advance them (in the 31st Milennium ATSKNF is Ultramarines Legion Tactics, the rest of us do cooler things instead).

 BBAP wrote:

It has 6 wounds. Shoot stuff at it, it'll die.

Statistically, i need 81 tankbusta to down a wraithknight. they alone cost 1053 points. Than they need transports - let's pick the cheapest ones and assume i pack 10 per trukk - that's 350 extra points.

So, i need >1400 points of shooting to kill a 300 pt unit and that's the most point effective i can get with a codex. Will need 122 lootas to do the same thing - that's 1701 points. You're forgetting that not everyone has grav, str d or worthwhile superheavies/gargants.

He already stomped off in a tizzy. Because math is hard.

Martel732 wrote:
Your arguments all neglect cost effectiveness. You neglect the obscenely low cost of said WK.

And yours neglect the cost of all the other units in the army, along with their capabilities. You think Scatbikes distort spacetime around them such that they are always out of bolter range of every unit on the table. You think every Eldar player is running 11 min squads of Scatbikes, or that any Eldar player could run more than 4-6 without seriously diminishing the effectiveness of their army.

You think Gladus is OP but Drop Pods suck.

Just... yeah.

Also you will never have all those meltas within range.

You ***just*** said "they won't send the Bikes, they'll send Spiders and WKs". I'm not walking up on the thing; it's walking up on me. If it does, it dies. If it walks past me, it ends up in range of my backfield Melta and it dies.

If instead of running Sisters, I run an army optimised for 7th Edition, like my Genestealer Cult, I run a few Ambush 6ers into the Wraithknight and kill it from out of Ongoing Reserve. 3 min squads of Claw-Morphs will kill it. That's 3 squads total; I'd need to put more than that into it to generate the 60 S7 Rending attacks the Claw-Morphs can do, because I need to stop it Overwatching the Morphs and account for the ones it'll kill etc etc.

Let's say for argument's sake that requires 4 units of Claw-Morphs and 2 units of Acolytes/ Neophytes to eat Overwatch. That's about 300pts of dudes to kill the Wraithknight.

The WK isn't the problem. Your Codex is the problem.

 koooaei wrote:
Statistically, i need 81 tankbusta [etc etc etc]

165pts of Claw-Morphs will kill a Wraithknight. That's 3 min squads out of the 8-10 I have in my GSC army. Three squads of Battle Sisters will do likewise. The problem is your Codex, not the Wraithknight.

So, i need >1400 points of shooting to kill a 300 pt unit and that's the most point effective i can get with a codex. Will need 122 lootas to do the same thing - that's 1701 points. You're forgetting that not everyone has grav, str d or worthwhile superheavies/gargants.

QED, brah.


EDIT: I'm not going to respond to your baiting - I'll report it to the mods. If you want to talk about why you're wrong, feel free. If you want to bait me and generally be a ween, do it by PM. Nobody else wants to read that gak.

Hyperbole makes your argument much weaker.

I've seen 5-8 squads used effectively frequently.11 squads is ararity, but still not so many points that the list is crippled. Again this is only possible because s6 is the magical sweet spot.

I'd be curious to know what posters' definitions of OP are. For me lots of units are overpowered because the default units I compare to are the classic units that have been around forever and haven't changed much; tactical squads, dreadnoughts, ork boyz, guard platoons, predators, CC carnifexes, gaunts, guardians... units that (for the most part) are considered bad because they've been left behind by power creep. In an ideal 40k these units would be just as effective as wraithknights, scat bikes and any other unit

I would almost argue that as a whole, the 6e Eldar Codex was easier to build a TAC list with and was scarier overall compared to the current one.

With the changes to monofilament and Serpent Shields, as well as the removal of Laser Lock, cover-killing requires far more resource investment (don't get me wrong, Skatach Wraithknights rock, but for that point cost they better), especially since Nightspinners require squadroning to really reach their potential. Add the removal of the Mantle of the Laughing God and Malefic Daemonology from Farseers, and whole the Eldar army throws out a lot more shots and is harder to pin down, it's a lot less durable compared to its previous incarnation.

Martel732 wrote:
Hyperbole makes your argument much weaker.

Where's the hyperbole?

I've seen 5-8 squads used effectively frequently

Yes, because at that level you have plenty of spare capacity to take stuff that can kill what Scatbikes can't.

11 squads is ararity but still not so many points that the list is crippled.

Show me a list with 11 Scatbikes that retains any functionality beyond being able to tear up light mech armies that deploy 100% of their stuff on the board. Preferably one which doesn't have such a huge board presence that it's tripping over its own arse while trying to move around.

Again this is only possible because s6 is the magical sweet spot.

It's always been powerful. The Eldar get a lot of it on highly mobile platforms, which makes it even more powerful. Powerful does not mean OP.

And we're done here. Some people can't have nice things.