Widied wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:
also bikes dropped 6 points and attack bikes 10. I'm still not feeling Attack Bikes but if Ravenwing bikers dropped 6 I'd put them back on the table.

Land Speeders dropped 10 points which I feel is not quite enough.

Inceptors went down 15 points but I'm not yet sure if that fills their niche.

On paper they don't look that good and really I don't think they are for many roles. But they seem decent as bubble wrap support for Azrael. The 3+/4++ does make them rather resilient and I have found that even without the invulnerable save they remain fairly tough. The two wounds and 2 attacks makes them better at holding the line than regular marines obviously. And the str 4 -1 AP bolters makes them decent at peppering units. Just don't expect them to take down a swarmlord....

what are you talking about

I think he's talking about Intercessors.

So if you take the LRC, where do you get your anti armor? Surely you can't rely on DWT punching tanks to death given the difference in mobility? I suppose I could always drop one unit of DWT and get two lasbacks in return

I do like the combination of 2x hurricane bolters, assault cannon, and a storm bolter too. Rapid fire 14 and heavy 12... More than covers a squad of terminators.. so maybe I *could* stand to fall back to 10 DWT and 5 knights to pick up a couple of razors...but do I try to find points to put anything in them?

While I would certainly appreciate a points drop on Power Fists, I have no problem paying 20 points for the Power Fist and 2 points for the Storm Bolter. You can certainly use both in a turn, and having Deathwing equipped this way makes them very flexible. I do like TH/SS, but its not an automatic choice. I find that Deathwing with Power Fists and Storm Bolters can handle pretty much any situation.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
While I would certainly appreciate a points drop on Power Fists, I have no problem paying 20 points for the Power Fist and 2 points for the Storm Bolter. You can certainly use both in a turn, and having Deathwing equipped this way makes them very flexible. I do like TH/SS, but its not an automatic choice. I find that Deathwing with Power Fists and Storm Bolters can handle pretty much any situation.

No longer a rumour, a clearer point page has been posted. Power fists on non-characters are now 12 points. So Deathwing come in at a svelt 40 points a pop now.

That's actually really damn good. Frees up a ton of points in a Deathwing-heavy force as well, enough to fit in more answers to things Deathwing handle poorly.

May still not be competitive at a tourney level, but this is easily the best terminators have ever been in the game's history.

 axisofentropy wrote:

bobafett012 wrote:
I think our tactical terms are better in this meta than assault terms.

Not when they're paying 20 points for power fists.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this point. I feel that Terminators that can put out very good fire power on top of being nearly as good in CC outweighs the same unit that is only good in CC and tbh, my Knights have gotten stomped every game now so i'm actually leaning toward dropping them and just bringing another shooty squad.

 axisofentropy wrote:
This is a big deal. Deathwing terminators 8 points cheaper per model jumps them right back into viability. Shame we'll probably have to wait for the DA codex or the end-of-year Chapter Approved for this.

Yes it is a big deal, it means i can drop a single apothecary and get an entire extra squad of terminators or a venerable dread. I'll take it.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
While I would certainly appreciate a points drop on Power Fists, I have no problem paying 20 points for the Power Fist and 2 points for the Storm Bolter. You can certainly use both in a turn, and having Deathwing equipped this way makes them very flexible. I do like TH/SS, but its not an automatic choice. I find that Deathwing with Power Fists and Storm Bolters can handle pretty much any situation.

Exactly my thoughts and experiences. However, we're talking Knights, because you wouldn't use TH/SS terms when our knights are just flat out better. So, while the survivability is certainly nice, it does nothing for AP-1 or worse, and lets face it, the differences between a mace, a power fist is fairly small. Biggest thing is not having -1 to hit, but when you have re-roll auras all over, that barely factors in.

Are Ven dreads worth taking over something like a Leviathan or a Contemptor?

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Are Ven dreads worth taking over something like a Leviathan or a Contemptor?

depends on the other stuff in your army, and hey paint what looks cool first.

8 Wound dreads have a big advantage by not degrading, while the venerable's 6+++ shrug makes it effectively 10-11 Wounds.

But also consider the view of your army from across the table and what your opponent wants to shoot first. Those 8 Wounds go fast if that's the most vulnerable target next to your Predators or whatever. But if you have assault units in his face or even backfield, then he's probably shooting at them, not your dread.

bobafett012 wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:

bobafett012 wrote:
I think our tactical terms are better in this meta than assault terms.

Not when they're paying 20 points for power fists.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this point.

Besides, you aren't paying 20 points for power fists any more. You're paying 12 points. See the price reductions in C:SM, which the FAQs indicate also applies to DA, BA, and SW.

 axisofentropy wrote:

Widied wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:
also bikes dropped 6 points and attack bikes 10. I'm still not feeling Attack Bikes but if Ravenwing bikers dropped 6 I'd put them back on the table.

Land Speeders dropped 10 points which I feel is not quite enough.

Inceptors went down 15 points but I'm not yet sure if that fills their niche.

On paper they don't look that good and really I don't think they are for many roles. But they seem decent as bubble wrap support for Azrael. The 3+/4++ does make them rather resilient and I have found that even without the invulnerable save they remain fairly tough. The two wounds and 2 attacks makes them better at holding the line than regular marines obviously. And the str 4 -1 AP bolters makes them decent at peppering units. Just don't expect them to take down a swarmlord....

what are you talking about

Yeah my mistake, i thought the discussion was around intercessors not inceptors.

 Melissia wrote:

bobafett012 wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:

bobafett012 wrote:
I think our tactical terms are better in this meta than assault terms.

Not when they're paying 20 points for power fists.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this point.

Besides, you aren't paying 20 points for power fists any more. You're paying 12 points. See the price reductions in C:SM, which the FAQs indicate also applies to DA, BA, and SW.

Yes, we're aware of the points drop. The points page was linked a page or so back, it's the reason for the discussion. However, I don't see anywhere in any FAQ, designers comments etc that allow DA, BA, and SW to use the updated weapons point costs. Could you please point me in the direction of that info.

I found an FAQ that gives DA, BA and SW the ability to take the new Primaris models (Reivers etc) from the SM Codex and it lists their wargear costs. Unfortunately their wargear does not include Power Fists. I could not find anything allowing those Chapters to take the other points-reduced wargear, but perhaps that would come out when the new SM Codex actually drops? It would be very strange if they did not, just as it might be strange to release an FAQ allowing us to use points that have not been released yet. I am being optimistic!

 GrimDork wrote:
So if you take the LRC, where do you get your anti armor? Surely you can't rely on DWT punching tanks to death given the difference in mobility? I suppose I could always drop one unit of DWT and get two lasbacks in return

I do like the combination of 2x hurricane bolters, assault cannon, and a storm bolter too. Rapid fire 14 and heavy 12... More than covers a squad of terminators.. so maybe I *could* stand to fall back to 10 DWT and 5 knights to pick up a couple of razors...but do I try to find points to put anything in them?

I rely on the LRC heavy weapons and CMLs.

bobafett012 wrote:
Yes, we're aware of the points drop. The points page was linked a page or so back, it's the reason for the discussion. However, I don't see anywhere in any FAQ, designers comments etc that allow DA, BA, and SW to use the updated weapons point costs. Could you please point me in the direction of that info.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/22/the-other-angels-of-death-and-codex-space-marines/

From the mouth of GW:

Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves army lists in Index: Imperium 1 all let you use units from the Space Marines section of that book. If you own the new codex, you should feel free to use those same units’ Datasheets from that book instead, until your own codex comes out.

Annoyingly this hasn't been added to the FAQ list yet, but it is Games Workshop's official stance on the matter. BTW, it even explicitly mentions things like taking the librarian stats from the book but using librarian powers from the index-- which, if hte limitation is intended to be "you can take ONLY the EXACT units from C:SM", wouldn't work out. So it's pretty clear that we're meant to take what we can from C:SM until our book comes out.

 Melissia wrote:

bobafett012 wrote:
Yes, we're aware of the points drop. The points page was linked a page or so back, it's the reason for the discussion. However, I don't see anywhere in any FAQ, designers comments etc that allow DA, BA, and SW to use the updated weapons point costs. Could you please point me in the direction of that info.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/22/the-other-angels-of-death-and-codex-space-marines/

From the mouth of GW:

Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves army lists in Index: Imperium 1 all let you use units from the Space Marines section of that book. If you own the new codex, you should feel free to use those same units’ Datasheets from that book instead, until your own codex comes out.

Annoyingly this hasn't been added to the FAQ list yet, but it is Games Workshop's official stance on the matter. BTW, it even explicitly mentions things like taking the librarian stats from the book but using librarian powers from the index-- which, if hte limitation is intended to be "you can take ONLY the EXACT units from C:SM", wouldn't work out. So it's pretty clear that we're meant to take what we can from C:SM until our book comes out.

Only talks about using the Codex datasheets though, nothing about points values. Because DW and RW are all separate from the vanilla terminators and bikes, nothing in that would appear to let us use the Codex point values.

Gotta agree, nothing in there about using updated points-values for wargear. Maybe someone could shoot off an email to GeeDubs for clarification.

 Melissia wrote:

bobafett012 wrote:
Yes, we're aware of the points drop. The points page was linked a page or so back, it's the reason for the discussion. However, I don't see anywhere in any FAQ, designers comments etc that allow DA, BA, and SW to use the updated weapons point costs. Could you please point me in the direction of that info.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/22/the-other-angels-of-death-and-codex-space-marines/

From the mouth of GW:

Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves army lists in Index: Imperium 1 all let you use units from the Space Marines section of that book. If you own the new codex, you should feel free to use those same units’ Datasheets from that book instead, until your own codex comes out.

Annoyingly this hasn't been added to the FAQ list yet, but it is Games Workshop's official stance on the matter. BTW, it even explicitly mentions things like taking the librarian stats from the book but using librarian powers from the index-- which, if hte limitation is intended to be "you can take ONLY the EXACT units from C:SM", wouldn't work out. So it's pretty clear that we're meant to take what we can from C:SM until our book comes out.

Yeah I think your wrong. Just because they say something similar in an article, not an official FAQ about using data sheets from C:SM doesn't mean I can jump into C:SM and pick out the point values that suit me. All it says is basically that the units that are not specific to the chapters, that you use SM section of the index, you can use the C:SM for those units. There is certainly no entry in C:SM for Deathwing terminators, so i don't think we're going to be able to use those point values. If they FAQ it as such, sure, and it seems certain that the points will be adjusted in our codex but until one of those 2 things happen, BA, DA, and SW are probably S.O.L.

I hope your right but GW would need to clarify that before I can show up at a tournament using C:SM point values for my Deathwing terminators gear.

Again, given that Games Workshop says you can use the new librarian datasheet without being restricted to only the C:SM psychic powers, I see that as permission to use the new codex's stuff whenever applicable, and otherwise refer to the index.

For me its pretty obvious.
My Dark Angels Wargear list does not contain powerfists. It refers to the Space Marines point values.
And ofc I will always take the most recent values, no matter if they are cheaper or more expensive.

Ugh. This means I'll have to buy the new SM codex, I guess. Oh well, at least I can use my guys as "Green Marines" to use with my Roboute Guilliman model if I want to, in addition to having the latest point costs if I do run actual Dark Angels, which is what I'd prefer doing.

Wow, i really wish we had the storm of fire warlord trait....dropping in Belial and a couple squads of terms along side him would be so good....


Also, so i''ve been debating a little about all the deathwing heavy weapon options. I personally use all assault cannons as i take either tri dread or tri flyer for my anti air, but i've been considering our other options, mainly plasma cannons. I think heavy flamers are a bit too short range for terms and of course not being able to over watch things charging from DS is a little silly, so i don't see a reason to take them over the 6 shot assault cannon. My issue with cyclones is they are just so expensive, more than twice the cost of assault cannons.

So anyways, what's everyone else's opinion on plasma cannons vs assault cannons vs cyclones in our deathwing squads?

I've been using assault cannons as well, for pretty much the same reason. I run at least two venerable las dreads and playing around with a dual storm leviathan. With the leviathan I may find the assault cannons are redundant, but they are general purpose enough that I'm hanging on to them for now. Cyclones would only hold a place in an assault squad of DWT for me and I'd use knights for that so I don't see myself using them anytime soon. Plas is really the only other option at the moment it I'm waiting to see if I feel I need them.

I am curious if the other points reductions would translate to Dark Angels. Would the Ravenwing Bikes, for instance, get the points break that the Bikes get in the new SM Codex? I could see arguments both ways, and it will be a let down for DA players if we are paying the old points until we get our own Codex. I think that the non-core Chapters could do with an FAQ update.

Assault cannons are my go-to. Plasma is intriguing but there are prob better platforms for it.

Cyclones are expensive, but getting to keep your storm bolter is neat. Definitely the highest potential shots, although if regular frag missiles getting 1d6 shots isn't a typo..cyclone frag mode falls short of double missile launchers..which sucks as it's that same cost. Eh, assault cannons math out better for me, so long as I get missiles or Las elsewhere.



So partly for the fact that I have/want to paint these things I'm looking at the following for an initial 2k:
Belial
Asmodai
Deathwing Ancient (TH/SS)
DWT assault cannon, chain fist
DWT assault cannon, chain fist
Deathwing knights
Land raider crusader w/ storm bolter
Venerable dread with twinlas and missile
Predator-autolas

And 167 points. Would you go for...

another vendread (and predator storm bolter)

OR

5 bolter scouts with HB and 5 company veterans (5 chainswords, 2 shields, 3 storm bolters, or some other mix).

Or is there some fundamental flaw what needs fixed in the first chunk of the list? For simplicity's sake I'm just gonna keep running off the index till codexark Angels comes out. Obviously there's not a lot of difference and I'll paint it all eventually . But I need a darn production queue!

Looks solid to me, but I would go melta over SB on your LRC.

I think you can take both now, I just wasn't sure about the points for that MM..they seem a bit expensive this edition.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I am curious if the other points reductions would translate to Dark Angels. Would the Ravenwing Bikes, for instance, get the points break that the Bikes get in the new SM Codex? I could see arguments both ways, and it will be a let down for DA players if we are paying the old points until we get our own Codex. I think that the non-core Chapters could do with an FAQ update.

no deathwing bikes aren't bikes. and they have slightly differant rules. (for one thing space marine bikes lack Jink)

BrianDavion wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I am curious if the other points reductions would translate to Dark Angels. Would the Ravenwing Bikes, for instance, get the points break that the Bikes get in the new SM Codex? I could see arguments both ways, and it will be a let down for DA players if we are paying the old points until we get our own Codex. I think that the non-core Chapters could do with an FAQ update.

no deathwing bikes aren't bikes. and they have slightly differant rules. (for one thing space marine bikes lack Jink)

True, but in the Index Marine Bikes were 31 points and Ravenwing Bikes were 32 points, so Jink was already in there for a 1 point increase. Is there a reason why DA Bikes would now cost 7 points more than other Chapters? Still, I see your point and I am planning to play my RW bikes from the Index. Its not a deal break for me (you don't play Ravenwing to win necessarily), but some clarity on what points we can take from the new Codex would be cool.

Cheers!

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I am curious if the other points reductions would translate to Dark Angels. Would the Ravenwing Bikes, for instance, get the points break that the Bikes get in the new SM Codex? I could see arguments both ways, and it will be a let down for DA players if we are paying the old points until we get our own Codex. I think that the non-core Chapters could do with an FAQ update.

no deathwing bikes aren't bikes. and they have slightly differant rules. (for one thing space marine bikes lack Jink)

True, but in the Index Marine Bikes were 31 points and Ravenwing Bikes were 32 points, so Jink was already in there for a 1 point increase. Is there a reason why DA Bikes would now cost 7 points more than other Chapters? Still, I see your point and I am planning to play my RW bikes from the Index. Its not a deal break for me (you don't play Ravenwing to win necessarily), but some clarity on what points we can take from the new Codex would be cool.

Cheers!

Since Ravenwing Bike Squad is a different unit name from the one in the Space Marine section of the Index (and the new codex), GW would need to specifically address that unit in a FAQ to change the point cost. Anything that is taken directly from the SM datasheets/wargear lists would match the SM costs. So shared weapons like Power Fists, and shared units like Tactical Squads and Inceptors. We can only hope that GW throws us a bone and reduces the cost of our similar units (like the aforementioned Ravenwing) to better match their vanilla counterparts.

How are people running their Ravenwing Huntmasters? Corvus Hammer or Power Sword? I was thinking the CH is a better fit, but just curious.

Can Dark Angels use the Space Marine Stratagems until such a time as their book comes out?

I will be running my Ravenwing out of the index for all rules/points until we get a new dex. I son;t see GW throwing us any bones until then. Using weapons and units from C:SM that would normally be pulled from Index may be allowed, but specialty units like RW will probably have to wait, and who knows how long that will be.

So, thoughts on the new Primaris stuff such as the Repulsor? I plan to get a Repulsor and either use it as a bus for my Hellblasters, or possibly take ALL THE LASCANNONS and park it next to Azrael for the sweet rerolls and good save. I'm a little disappointed that it only has a 3+ save, but otherwise it would literally be a flying Land Raider and would cost even more points than it already does.

I haven't done any math to see how effective it really is but I'm kinda in love with the number of dice it can crap out.

I think it would be amusing to pack 3 Aggressors, the captain, and a lieutenant into the thing. Deploy them and then hover within the auras pew pew.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
So, thoughts on the new Primaris stuff such as the Repulsor? I plan to get a Repulsor and either use it as a bus for my Hellblasters, or possibly take ALL THE LASCANNONS and park it next to Azrael for the sweet rerolls and good save. I'm a little disappointed that it only has a 3+ save, but otherwise it would literally be a flying Land Raider and would cost even more points than it already does.

The tank if priced right could possibly replace my pred annihilator. For the most part I like my intercessors out in the open and ran cheaply as screen. But to have it there to possibly move primaris around could be useful and it looks to have about the same amount of fire power as a pred annhilator -- with the fly rule also making it better. In my list right now I'm running two units of five primaris intercessors and a primaris lieutenant and they are really quite good. the lieutenant obviously is there for the rerolls of 1's to wound. I use the intercessors mostly as a screen/bubble wrap. They sit in front of my two ven dreads, pred annihilator etc and pump out some decent shots at a decent mid-range but are mostly used to hold the line (the anvil) so my shooting and actual combat stuff can do work. That strategy probably won't change alot even with the new tank -- this is largely going to depend on point management. I could easily still use a pred annihilator and be fine. Pred Annihilators also dropped in points too I believe which may make it the winner still by default.

The new dread also doesn't seem to be all that exceptional. I'm pretty biased towards the venerables at the moment only because they have been exceptionally good every game. Hitting on two's, the venerable ability to ignore wounds, and the fact they don't depreciate are abilities worth their weight. In the last two games, they (aided by Azrael of course) were the main factor of my wins destroying my opponents key units ie: typhus, plaguecaster, lord of contagion, demon prince, hellbrute, chaos lord, chaos bikes. Never run them without lascannon/fists/flamer. They are the counter punch the army needs. I find alot of the lists I'm seeing being built focus too hard on shooting as if their enemy will never make it into combat with them and somehow Azrael is going to be enough on his own. That's a pretty high ideal that will almost never be achieved against a solid list. You need to be prepared for the fight to make it eventually and that you hopefully will have weakened their force by that time enough to pull the win. I'm convinced that ven dreads are the key to that strategy.

I've ran 2 nephilims and 1 dark talon the last couple games for my anti-armor and plus some anti-infantry with a couple weapons they have. They've been ridiculously good. Flyers are very powerful in this edition and it shows. They cost almost the same price as 3 venerable dreads, which i also like a lot, however they have one thing that I like vastly more than the dreads and that's extreme mobility.

Now that might mean less depending on your list but I play Deathwing so I sorely needed the mobility boost that they bring.

Actually a flyer wing and deathwing army sounds pretty fricking cool. I've seen alot of people saying do greenwing (ie azzy with dread parking lot) and deathwing army but I feel that leaves your back shooty force pretty thin and exposed. It feels like it would play against what you want to do. But the flyer wing/deathwing would be exactly what you'd want. Cool idea. I definitely think the key to a good alpha strike DA list is a combo of dw and rw. I posted up a list that I think might work decently in the army list section.

What are your thoughts on our flyers and their loadouts?

I bought a kit recently and magnetized everything of course, but I was wandering what loadout I should play in my first match.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
So, thoughts on the new Primaris stuff such as the Repulsor? I plan to get a Repulsor and either use it as a bus for my Hellblasters, or possibly take ALL THE LASCANNONS and park it next to Azrael for the sweet rerolls and good save. I'm a little disappointed that it only has a 3+ save, but otherwise it would literally be a flying Land Raider and would cost even more points than it already does.

Are you sure we can even use them?

Aeri wrote:
What are your thoughts on our flyers and their loadouts?

I bought a kit recently and magnetized everything of course, but I was wandering what loadout I should play in my first match.

The Dark Talon looks amazing. Probably the best overall flyer we have access to. If I get some nephalim I will like go lascannon over avenger bolter because the talon has decent anti horde.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cadian16th wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
So, thoughts on the new Primaris stuff such as the Repulsor? I plan to get a Repulsor and either use it as a bus for my Hellblasters, or possibly take ALL THE LASCANNONS and park it next to Azrael for the sweet rerolls and good save. I'm a little disappointed that it only has a 3+ save, but otherwise it would literally be a flying Land Raider and would cost even more points than it already does.

Are you sure we can even use them?

\

Yeah GW site put the points and stuff out to the public on their site and it states DA/BA/SW can all use them etc.

I've been using the Dark Talon in every game I've played and it's a work horse. It does a lot of damage and draws a whole lot of dakka before it dies, if it dies.

I've also found las preds and devs sitting next to azrael, dark shroud, and primaris lt are incredibly hard to deal with. In the last three games I've played I've only lost 1 dev squad out of 2 and if they do damage a pred i usually have a techmarine there to heal it back up.

I haven't had to go against a true horde army yet though.

 ILegion wrote:
I've been using the Dark Talon in every game I've played and it's a work horse. It does a lot of damage and draws a whole lot of dakka before it dies, if it dies.

I've also found las preds and devs sitting next to azrael, dark shroud, and primaris lt are incredibly hard to deal with. In the last three games I've played I've only lost 1 dev squad out of 2 and if they do damage a pred i usually have a techmarine there to heal it back up.

I haven't had to go against a true horde army yet though.

For the lolz, stick an Ancient near the devs to maybe get extra shots when they go down!

Edit: And an Apothecary to stand them back up again!

Aeri wrote:
What are your thoughts on our flyers and their loadouts?

I bought a kit recently and magnetized everything of course, but I was wandering what loadout I should play in my first match.

Of course it depends on what the rest of your army composition is and what it is in need of. Considering I play Deathwing, I already have plenty of dakka from the terminators, so my Nephilims and kitted out for Anti-armor, so twin las, the black swaord missiles and twin heavy bolter. Sadly the twin heavy bolters can't be changed out, but its not that bad an issue, since facing doesn't matter you just drop the heavy bolter shots on infantry. If i was running Devs with missiles, or lascannons, and tri-las preds, then I'd definitely condsider going with the mega bolter for anti-infantry.

The dark talon of course only has 1 load out, but hurricane bolters on a super mobile platform is super good, and the rift cannon can do some good damage to vehicles and high T, high wound models, and the stasis bomb is always hilarious, just make sure you always drop it on a squad with 10+ models to get maximum effect. The dark talon fits nicely with the nephilim, since they both can be dual role and as a bonus it can go into hove mode after you've cleaned up some of the opponents anti-air.

What units/combinations of units would you guys recommend for a list that can handle hordes well but still do okay against other army types? I was looking around the internet for competitive lists and all I could find really were the ETC lists, which involved spamming Dark Talons, Razorbacks, Dreads, and/or Devastators in some combination, along with Azrael for the rerolls. I'm not sure the ETC lists are a good indicator of what's good in Dark Angels, though.

One guy in my local meta runs huge blobs of Ork Boyz, and I have a hard time dealing with 150+ models all coming at me at once. I only own 2 AC Razorbacks and no Heavy Bolter Devs. I do have a Nephilim that could take the megabolter for some horde-clearing, but I should probably build my other two DA flyer kits as Dark Talons, which do the job better.

Main reason I post this is that I've got a tournament next weekend and I'd like to finish better than dead last. What kind of stuff should I be taking to make a good TAC list, that can handle hordes as well as a heavily meched-up list (like 4 IK or something). My meta is really brutal, with several very good players who go to the big tournaments and do okay there (one of them was ranked like 4th in the world in some rank system or other).

Zergsmasher,

I came 2nd with my Dark Angels in a 32 player local tournament a few week ago. My second and third games were against Orks and both were tough victories. I took a core of two full Tac Sqds and a Scout Sniper Squad, a Deathwing Squad, a Deathwing Knights Squad, a Deathwing Champion, a Ravenwing Black Knights Squads, a Devastator Squad, a Librarian on a Bike, Belial and Azrael with a Nephalim in support.

My Devastators struggled, but to be fair they were high priority targets for my opponents and they targeted them (multiple Bombs from Bombas were particularly nasty in that regards). My Ravenwing Black Knights were also not very effective - they are meant to kill high-points targets and not a horde of Orks! A standard Ravenwing Bike squad would have been better.

The Tactical Squads were very solid against Orks - Frag missiles, rapid-firing Bolters and Flamers all thinned out the hordes. The Nephalim was great, but watch out for Stormboyz and that Stormboy character!

The stars against the Ork horders were the Deathwing. The normal Terminators with Storm Bolters were great, especially with Belial giving re-rolls. I thought that the Deathwing Knights would be terrible against Orks, but in the end they shone in both competitive games. The Deathwing worked as an integrated team with Belial at the centre. The Terminators would thin the horde with fire and the Deathwing Knights would clean up. They were supported by Tactical Squad rapid fire and Nephalim strafing. The Snipers killed a Weirdboy and a Painboy which was kinda fun.

Cheers

^I suddenly feel smart for converting some scout snipers

I'm looking to add one unit of the new stuff to my guys (in addition to DI) who are largely Deathwing(for now). It feels like aggressors are great at what they do, and may make a cool little force rushing up to pinch attack with teleporting DWT...but they're basically just more bolter shots. Our assault elements are generally tough and probably don't need reivers to soften up their targets or cancel overwatch. Which largely leaves me with the Redemptor and Repulsor in search of high AP murder weapons.

I like the dread and it's a bit easier to cram it into a list than the tank, but I'm not sure if the macro plasma cannon can keep up with four lascannon shots. I mean on average it's a similar number of shots from the high AP guns but the macroplas only does 2 damage when overcharging vs d6 from the lascannon/talon. Points wise the dread can tag a backup (nearly enough points for another dread probably, especially if we're talking standard/venerable dread) but then I wonder if I shouldn't just keep a duo of lascannon vendreads.

The grav tank can field weaponry to nearly match both a classic (godhammer?) *and* crusader land raider, and that first part is what I tend to lack. But it's reeeaaly expensive and can only transport Primaris which means either my knights are burning CP trying to deepstrike charge or I'm taking two 350-400 point transports. Hell I dunno maybe that's viable...would be a bunch of fatty tank wounds. Maybe get em a darkshroud and make a theme of it...

Hmm. I want the new shinies but I'm kinda wondering if the new hotness is really gonna outperform the classic options. Especially considering we don't know what, if anything, we'll be getting to compete with the new codex marines chapter tactics.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

The stars against the Ork horders were the Deathwing. The normal Terminators with Storm Bolters were great, especially with Belial giving re-rolls.

Do you think Belial is worth the points VS Terminator Captain? Same stats, same buffs a couple of extras on Belial but capt is cheaper.

Did you run Belial with sword of silence + SB or another config?

 MangoMadness wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

The stars against the Ork horders were the Deathwing. The normal Terminators with Storm Bolters were great, especially with Belial giving re-rolls.

Do you think Belial is worth the points VS Terminator Captain? Same stats, same buffs a couple of extras on Belial but capt is cheaper.

Did you run Belial with sword of silence + SB or another config?

IMO Belial is probably a must-take with Deathwing. His extra goodies are more than worth the extra points.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

IMO Belial is probably a must-take with Deathwing. His extra goodies are more than worth the extra points.

You are right, I thought they both had Rites of Battle only, Belial had MoTDW allowing all rerolls not just 1's.

Definately worth the extra points

Belial has been a rock star deploying with two Deathwing units and either an Ancient or a Champion. Reroll misses for both squads in shooting and assault - really buffs the DW. His Sword of Silence has been great, but perhaps I will eventually regret having a 4++ save instead of a 3++ with a SS. He is less potent against vehicles, but that's what the other two squads can do!

Cheers

 MangoMadness wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

The stars against the Ork horders were the Deathwing. The normal Terminators with Storm Bolters were great, especially with Belial giving re-rolls.

Do you think Belial is worth the points VS Terminator Captain? Same stats, same buffs a couple of extras on Belial but capt is cheaper.

Did you run Belial with sword of silence + SB or another config?

Currently there is no competition. Belial is hands down better in every way than a basic Captain in term armor. Having said that, once we get our codex, it will largely depend on what and how good our chapter relics are. For 1 CP you can get 2 relics which, if you've seen the SM, chaos, and GK relics, well, there are some really good ones and Belial could easily have competition for his spot. I'm actually hoping for this, not that I don't love running Belial, but being able to mix and match relics to make a handful of different Deathwing HQs is going to be very cool. I know I shouldn't get my hopes up as GW has dashed them every time we've gotten a new dex but i'll try to stay somewhat reserved....

As someone running a successor chapter, having access to a generic who was even somewhat on par with Belial or Azreal would be nice. Keeps me from having to be weird about the named dudes. Oh you're going to make a fuss? Ok forget it, I'm playing dark angels, they're just wearing blue today =\

 GrimDork wrote:
As someone running a successor chapter, having access to a generic who was even somewhat on par with Belial or Azreal would be nice. Keeps me from having to be weird about the named dudes. Oh you're going to make a fuss? Ok forget it, I'm playing dark angels, they're just wearing blue today =\

People who give you grief need to get a life. There were plenty of blue/red/black/whatever White Scars Battle Companies in 7th edition, all with Kor'sarro Khan in them. To say nothing about all the multicolored Ultramarine Skyhammer Annihilation Forces out there. If someone has a problem with you playing a well-painted Successor army with a counts-as Azrael or Belial in there (so that you could use those profiles), don't play them. Personally I like to see some different color schemes for armies instead of the same old thing, although my own Dark Angels are the traditional dark green/black/bone white as they are not a successor chapter.

Yeah I don't foresee issues. I'm more excited at the prospect of bashing out custom characters to fit the gear. It's not like i play much anyway

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Belial has been a rock star deploying with two Deathwing units and either an Ancient or a Champion. Reroll misses for both squads in shooting and assault - really buffs the DW. His Sword of Silence has been great, but perhaps I will eventually regret having a 4++ save instead of a 3++ with a SS. He is less potent against vehicles, but that's what the other two squads can do!

Cheers

Cool

How do you run your DW squads? I ran a very successful belial/terminator/dread army back in 4th/5th a decade ago running 1 pair of LC in each squad and some mixed armament. With the new CC rules the LC seem to have lost their I advantage but an extra attack and rr would be good for anti infantry.

I am thinking that this edition each squad should have a TH/SS for a 3+ invul for when they get shot with high AP lascannons and the like you put those hits on the SS for more survivability. Do you run any TLC in the squads or do you let the knights do most of the CC work?

 MangoMadness wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Belial has been a rock star deploying with two Deathwing units and either an Ancient or a Champion. Reroll misses for both squads in shooting and assault - really buffs the DW. His Sword of Silence has been great, but perhaps I will eventually regret having a 4++ save instead of a 3++ with a SS. He is less potent against vehicles, but that's what the other two squads can do!

Cheers

Cool

How do you run your DW squads? I ran a very successful belial/terminator/dread army back in 4th/5th a decade ago running 1 pair of LC in each squad and some mixed armament. With the new CC rules the LC seem to have lost their I advantage but an extra attack and rr would be good for anti infantry.

I am thinking that this edition each squad should have a TH/SS for a 3+ invul for when they get shot with high AP lascannons and the like you put those hits on the SS for more survivability. Do you run any TLC in the squads or do you let the knights do most of the CC work?

I was running one Deathwing Squad with Assault Cannon and four Storm Bolters along with a squad of Deathwing Knights. I am now trying out two Deathwing Squads each with a single TH/SS for the reason you gave as the Sgt and then an Assault Cannon plus Storm Bolters. I have not tried out the Lightning Claws this edition but I have a squad ready. One weapon I might try again in the Cyclone launcher. I am finding the Assault Cannon a little "meh" and will try out the more heavy hitting missile launcher soon.

I am back on forth regarding the Deathwing Knights. They look cool and have had some incredible games for me, but other times they run around in circles doing nothing. I think they need a transport to be more reliable.

Cheers

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

 MangoMadness wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Belial has been a rock star deploying with two Deathwing units and either an Ancient or a Champion. Reroll misses for both squads in shooting and assault - really buffs the DW. His Sword of Silence has been great, but perhaps I will eventually regret having a 4++ save instead of a 3++ with a SS. He is less potent against vehicles, but that's what the other two squads can do!

Cheers

Cool

How do you run your DW squads? I ran a very successful belial/terminator/dread army back in 4th/5th a decade ago running 1 pair of LC in each squad and some mixed armament. With the new CC rules the LC seem to have lost their I advantage but an extra attack and rr would be good for anti infantry.

I am thinking that this edition each squad should have a TH/SS for a 3+ invul for when they get shot with high AP lascannons and the like you put those hits on the SS for more survivability. Do you run any TLC in the squads or do you let the knights do most of the CC work?

I was running one Deathwing Squad with Assault Cannon and four Storm Bolters along with a squad of Deathwing Knights. I am now trying out two Deathwing Squads each with a single TH/SS for the reason you gave as the Sgt and then an Assault Cannon plus Storm Bolters. I have not tried out the Lightning Claws this edition but I have a squad ready. One weapon I might try again in the Cyclone launcher. I am finding the Assault Cannon a little "meh" and will try out the more heavy hitting missile launcher soon.

I am back on forth regarding the Deathwing Knights. They look cool and have had some incredible games for me, but other times they run around in circles doing nothing. I think they need a transport to be more reliable.

Cheers

Yeah, tbh, terminators, even TH/SS/knights aren't the greatest in CC. they have low number of attacks, are very slow, they hit on 4+ with TH. The Knights are clearly much better but I'm in the same boat as you, I find without a LR, they DS in and do very little most of the time. Mine have gotten badly mauled by Berzerks, wiped out by Abbadon. I nevery situation i've actually just wished I had another shooty squad that I could deploy at 12"-24" and whittle things down before I go into CC. This is another reason why TLCs are basically pointless. If you want to/are going to run CC terms, you run Knights.

As for the TH/SS on the serg, thats possibly another story, I think that might be a good investment because he can soak high AP shots, and if he does get into CC, he has 3 TH attacks. I haven't got a chance to run them yet, as i just got 3 of them painted up, but that's next on the agenda.

A lot could happen when we get our dex. Look at storm of fire warlord trait in the S< book. That would be so good on a DW warlord that could drop in with a couple squads of terms and lay waste to everything. I was super jealous of that trait..... that would be a great tactic with Marneus Calgar dropping in with terminators.

Anyone experiment with the Techmarine on Bike? For only 12 more points you get +8" movement, +1 toughness, +1 Wounds, plus the bike weapons. This seems insanely good in an Azrael parking lot list.

I kinda wondered about a techmarine. So we get servitors too? Plasma servitors may be nice in an azbubble..

I recently had a game at my FLGS at 1500 Points.

Sammael, some Black knights, An apothecary on Bike and a drakshroud. 2 Assault cannon Razorbacks with Tac squads in the backfield and 1 unit of deathwing knights.

Enemy were Khorne Deamons and they stole the initiative - luckily This allowed me to charge their flying deamon prince of doom after unloading my plasma talons on it.
Sammael then made short work of it with his 5 S8 melee attacks.
Huge suprise for both me and my enemy :-P

the deathwing knights performed as usual - they did good.
Once my enemy realized what they can do, he cleared the field and all they did was controlling pretty much 1/4 of the table because he didnt dare to come closer.

Bikes and Razorbacks then proceeded to clear the table.

bobafett012 wrote:

As for the TH/SS on the serg, thats possibly another story, I think that might be a good investment because he can soak high AP shots, and if he does get into CC, he has 3 TH attacks. I haven't got a chance to run them yet, as i just got 3 of them painted up, but that's next on the agenda.

Its handy with the extra attack on the sgt but the sgt gets a PS which shaves 8 points off the squad, doesnt seem like much but it all helps keep an expensive squad cheaper.

My thoughts on an army is based around my 4th edition army
Approx 1750 points. for 1500 points drop 1 squad of termies
Belial
4 squads of terminators
2 Landspeeders either just MM or HB/Typhoons pending points
2 Contemptor Dreads
1 Predator TLLC with HB sponsons

Deploy - Pred deploys central with contemptors, speeders deploy flank. try and hide as much as possible to deny the enemy targets

1st Turn - Belial and 3 termies deploy on one flank, contemptors move and shoot toward that flank for CC and fire support. Pred holds baseline with fire support. Speeders advance/hold back pending weapons.

Plan is for the termies to land and shoot up a flank whilst denying opponents other flank from having targets.

2nd turn - termies move toward opposition centre, 1 termy squad in reserve deployed where needed.

It is a tactic that worked very well for me before (hopefully will again), many opponents panic with the termies in their face and mentally lose the game, some try and wipe out the termies and ignore the baseline firepower and dreads, some focus on the dreads/pred/speeders which are quite durable.

What makes this list stronger than 4th edition is there is no teleport scatter and no templates. We used to have to teleport in a blob and heavy plasma/demolisher cannons etc used to love blobbed up terminators but no more


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

I was running one Deathwing Squad with Assault Cannon and four Storm Bolters along with a squad of Deathwing Knights. I am now trying out two Deathwing Squads each with a single TH/SS for the reason you gave as the Sgt and then an Assault Cannon plus Storm Bolters. I have not tried out the Lightning Claws this edition but I have a squad ready. One weapon I might try again in the Cyclone launcher. I am finding the Assault Cannon a little "meh" and will try out the more heavy hitting missile launcher soon.

With the storm bolters putting out heaps of fire (4/model within 12") I am thinking that the cyclone is good (but expensive) but also looking at the plasma cannon for anti 2 would infantry and some anti-vehicle (especially with RR1's)

 MangoMadness wrote:

Its handy with the extra attack on the sgt but the sgt gets a PS which shaves 8 points off the squad, doesnt seem like much but it all helps keep an expensive squad cheaper.

What makes this list stronger than 4th edition is there is no teleport scatter and no templates. We used to have to teleport in a blob and heavy plasma/demolisher cannons etc used to love blobbed up terminators but no more

What are your guys thoughts on the Fellblade?

Approx, 700 points (2x Quad Lascannon, Fellblade Accelerator Cannon, Demolisher Cannon, Twin Heavy Bolter and Crushing Tracks). T9, 26W SV2+. Move and shoot without penalty to heavy weapons and can leave combat and still shoot!

With Azrael giving it a 4+ Invul and re-rolling hits it not only going to stick around its also going to dish out the pain.

Gibs55 wrote:
What are your guys thoughts on the Fellblade?

Approx, 700 points (2x Quad Lascannon, Fellblade Accelerator Cannon, Demolisher Cannon, Twin Heavy Bolter and Crushing Tracks). T9, 26W SV2+. Move and shoot without penalty to heavy weapons and can leave combat and still shoot!

With Azrael giving it a 4+ Invul and re-rolling hits it not only going to stick around its also going to dish out the pain.

Is the felblade an imperial guard tank? oh sorry, astra militarum... If so, it wouldn't benefit from azreal's re-rolls. Though at 700 points, plus the near 200 for azreal, your at 900 in 2 model's, that doesn't sound like a great idea to me.

bobafett012 wrote:

Gibs55 wrote:
What are your guys thoughts on the Fellblade?

Approx, 700 points (2x Quad Lascannon, Fellblade Accelerator Cannon, Demolisher Cannon, Twin Heavy Bolter and Crushing Tracks). T9, 26W SV2+. Move and shoot without penalty to heavy weapons and can leave combat and still shoot!

With Azrael giving it a 4+ Invul and re-rolling hits it not only going to stick around its also going to dish out the pain.

Is the felblade an imperial guard tank? oh sorry, astra militarum... If so, it wouldn't benefit from azreal's re-rolls. Though at 700 points, plus the near 200 for azreal, your at 900 in 2 model's, that doesn't sound like a great idea to me.

Imperium, Adeptus Astartes <CHAPTER> so if would benefit?

Lost of people run triple Predators which are in the same ball park points wise. At T9 and a 2+ this is possibly more durable and also helps you get first turn. Not to mention it can split fire all weapons and shoot every turn. Vehciles are not good for securing objectives so is having more an advantage?

The list I was thinking of included:

Azrael
Belial

Intercessor Squad
Intercessor Squad
Intercessor Squad

Deathwing Terminators
Deathwing Terminators
Deathwing Terminators

Fellbade

Deploy: Azrael, Intercessors and Fellblade (5)
Reserves: Belial, Terminators (4)

bobafett012 wrote:

Keeping power swords to make squads cheaper i don't think is going to do much. 32-40 points for 4-5 squads and the swords at str 4 is just a pointless weapon for DA. I ALWAYS kill the serg first, he has no purpose in Deathwing squads unfortunately. LD doesn't matter to them, and fists are much better than the sword, but if I had a hammer on him, now the PF/SB terms soak non high AP weapons, and serg soaks high AP stuff and hopefully lives to get into assault

Fair call but until we get our own codex we have to use the premium points in the index for power fists dont we?

bobafett012 wrote:
4th was probably the last edition terminators were actually viable but for different reasons then you mentioned. It was mainly because you could run dual heavy weapons in the squad.

That might have been 3rd, my 4th army didnt have duals (i doubt i would have missed it at the time )

bobafett012 wrote:
With the storm bolters putting out heaps of fire (4/model within 12") I am thinking that the cyclone is good (but expensive) but also looking at the plasma cannon for anti 2 would infantry and some anti-vehicle (especially with RR1's)

I think the plasma cannon is a very good option, I think it adds more versatilty at the same price as the AC especially with the rerolls.

 MangoMadness wrote:


Fair call but until we get our own codex we have to use the premium points in the index for power fists dont we?

That's what i thought at first but the more I asked around at the shop and seen posts on Dakka, i was convinced otherwise. I posted on GWs facebook page to see if i could get an answer as that's where we were told to go to get question's answered but of course no answers to most if not all of the questions people have posted other than in FAQs.

 MangoMadness wrote:

That might have been 3rd, my 4th army didnt have duals (i doubt i would have missed it at the time )

http://www.thedarkfortress.co.uk/tech_reports/ac-or-cyclone.htm#.WYrGWRXyuUl

It was definitely 4th, because I started in 2nd, skipped 3rd because of the drastic changes being made, and came back in 4th. Scroll down to history of the assault cannon.

 MangoMadness wrote:

I think the plasma cannon is a very good option, I think it adds more versatilty at the same price as the AC especially with the rerolls.

guaranteed 6 shots vs an average of 2 shots i think is just too much. many of these D3 and D6 weapons out there probably needed a +1 along with them, otherwise they are just to inconsistent to count on.

bobafett012 wrote:

 MangoMadness wrote:

That might have been 3rd, my 4th army didnt have duals (i doubt i would have missed it at the time )

http://www.thedarkfortress.co.uk/tech_reports/ac-or-cyclone.htm#.WYrGWRXyuUl

It was definitely 4th, because I started in 2nd, skipped 3rd because of the drastic changes being made, and came back in 4th. Scroll down to history of the assault cannon.

Just went through the old codex, yep Smurfs could have 2 heavies buy Deathwing could only have 1 but DW had other advantages.

 MangoMadness wrote:

bobafett012 wrote:

 MangoMadness wrote:

That might have been 3rd, my 4th army didnt have duals (i doubt i would have missed it at the time )

http://www.thedarkfortress.co.uk/tech_reports/ac-or-cyclone.htm#.WYrGWRXyuUl

It was definitely 4th, because I started in 2nd, skipped 3rd because of the drastic changes being made, and came back in 4th. Scroll down to history of the assault cannon.

Just went through the old codex, yep Smurfs could have 2 heavies buy Deathwing could only have 1 but DW had other advantages.

incorrect. I'm literally looking at the codex that was playable through almost all of 2nd edition through almost all of 4th edition. It was the same book. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codex:_Dark_Angels_(3rd_Edition) The original Dark angels codex was Angels of death and was dark angels plus blood angels. that book ran through 1st edition and the first year of 2nd edition. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codex:_Angels_of_Death_(2nd_Edition) I came in just after this book went out. 3rd edition of 40k released in 1998, http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Warhammer_40,000_3rd_Edition_Rulebook . The codex your referring to, http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codex:_Dark_Angels_(4th_Edition) , didn't come out till 2007. notice when 5th edition came out? http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Warhammer_40,000_5th_Edition_Rulebook ,2008. So that book was good for 1 year of the 4 that 4th was out.

This codex, http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codex:_Dark_Angels_(3rd_Edition) , which was used for almost all of 2nd, all of 3rd, and most of 4th, was the codex that allowed 2 heavy weapons per squad. That changed with the codex your talking about, http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codex:_Dark_Angels_(4th_Edition) , which ran through the last year of 4th, and all of 5th edition, it was basically, the 5th edition codex because the next DA codex that came out was the 6th edition codex, http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codex:_Dark_Angels_(6th_Edition) , and it came out 1 year after 6th edition released, http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Warhammer_40,000_6th_Edition_Rulebook.

So for almost 3 full editions, the Deathwing Terminators could run dual heavy weapons, just as the site I linked to you said, and they were very potent.


PS I've no idea why the last parentheses isn't part of the link, so just add that into the address and all the links work.

bobafett012 wrote:

This codex, http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codex:_Dark_Angels_(3rd_Edition) , which was used for almost all of 2nd, all of 3rd, and most of 4th, was the codex that allowed 2 heavy weapons per squad.

WTF are you talking about?

3rd edition codex was used for almost all of 2nd edition??????

bobafett012 wrote:
The original Dark angels codex was Angels of death and was dark angels plus blood angels. that book ran through 1st edition and the first year of 2nd edition.

Wrong, 1st edition was Rogue trader, The second edition Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook was published in 1993, The Codex: Angels of Death is an expansion book for the Games Workshop Table Top game Warhammer 40,000. This book was published for the first time in 1996.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Warhammer_40,000_(2nd_Edition)
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codex:_Angels_of_Death_(2nd_Edition)

So no, they did not run dual heavies for 3 editions, they ran them for 1 1/2 editions (most of 3rd and half of 4th) and as for being 'very potent' that is debateable, 3rd edition in my part of the world was ruled by STR6 AP2 3 shot starcannons which ripped marines and terminators to shreds especially when backed up by an avatar and 2-3 T8 3 wound wraithlords.

Do you recall how terminators in 3rd ed were errata'd in a WD to give them a 5++ save because they were so rubbish? Even a 5++ save didnt make them much better in a star cannon playing environment.

But your local environment might have been different, we were all very tournament orientated.

Why are we arguing over what was? The only thing that matters is what is now! We don't want an Interrogator Chaplain to come in and straighten this mess out...

 MangoMadness wrote:
[

no point in arguing anymore, i played it, i lived it, i've linked every page with dates, and I own every dark angels codex except the angels of death codex and the 7th edition codex as 6th was the last edition I played before 8th. There's no more I can say.

You might be right about them not being as potent as I remember though, I've never been a waac/competitive player, and the areas I played in might not have been either, and so they may have just seemed much more powerful than they really were. I do remember tabling many opponents though, Tyranids, deathguard, IG tank platoons, demons. Eldar were definitely my worst opponent to play. 2nd edition they had those damn blind missiles which was a real pain for my cyclones, and then star cannons, and prism cannons sucked too. I do think dual heavy weapons would be pretty powerful these days on our Deathwing, but it's all good, i'm having a good time with them as it is, won quite afew games I didn't think i had any business winning and probably wouldn't have in 5th, 6th, and probably 7th edition. I believe Deathwatch can actually take 3 heavy weapons per squad, but they are already more expensive than regular terms, plus you lose the special ammunition ability so it's probably not worth running.

MangoMadness has it right. Angels of Death was 2nd Edition. Released in 1996 it was fantastic, Deathwing squads that you could mix and match weapons on, Ravenwing with a -1 to be shot at due to jink, and terminators saving on a 3+ on 2D6. They laughed off bolter fire back then, Azreal also had his 4+ shield bearer back then. Nothing like Azreal surrounded by Deathwing terminators and a Dreadnought walking across the board with a 3+ on 2D6 and then an invul 4+, both of which you got to take.

3rd Edition came out 2 years later and the 3rd Edition codex the next year. The Angels of Death codex was *NOT* used in 3rd Edition though as the game changed entirely and there was absolutely no hope of compatibility.

What you are thinking about bobafett012 is the time between our codex in 3rd edition (1999) to the time of our next codex (2007, 8 years later) during which we started in 3rd edition but then ended up in 4th edition (2004). That was the longest gap we've ever had between codexes and 3rd and 4th additions were close enough rule wise that the codex worked for both. Plasma Cannons were *MEAN* in 4.5 edition though. You placed one template, which did not need to be centered on a model and then multiplied the number of models covered by the number of the template weapon you had, Dev squad of 4 plasma cannons could easily hit 12+ models in a unit.

Well thanks for that walk down memory lane.

Gibs55, I think the Fellblade may be a decent option but I I have two concerns over it vs the 3 predators, what does it's damage chart look like? The Preds may be able to maintain a higher level of accurate fire for longer due to being 3 different vehicles. Also as I think large LOS blocking terrain is going to become the standard for 8th, being able to spread your Predators out a bit (even if they will lose the 4+) may be more advantagous than having the single Fellblade, which your opponent could potentially shield a large portion of their force from. Also does the FellBlade have that Banblade rule where you can fall back and still fire? If not I think the three Preds may be better as it would be harder to tie them all up.

Can DA take non-Primaris Lieutenants?

I just played in a tournament earlier today, so I thought I might post an after-action report here in case anyone finds it enlightening or at least fun to read. The points level was 2000 points, and we were using ITC missions and rules. I was running the exact list that I posted here Here's a quick summary of how the games went.

Game 1 was The Relic, and my opponent was running Tyranids with Genestealer Cult. His list had a Malanthrope as his Warlord, 3 units of Hive Guard with Impaler Cannons, 2 units of Biovores, a 20-strong unit of Termagants, 2 GSC Patriarchs, a Primus, a Magus, and 3 units of Purestrain Genestealers (2 with 16 and 1 with 20 models). I set up my models with my Devastators and Tacticals screening the rest of my army as best they could, which turned out not to be good enough. I got as many of my vehicles and stuff next to the power trio of Azrael, PrimeLT, and Darkshroud, and although I did not get first turn I actually siezed. I still failed to kill very much on my first turn, bagging 3 Hive Guard from 2 different units. My opponent Cult Ambushed 2 of his Stealer blobs (the 16 model ones), along with the Patriarchs and got 5's on the Ambush table for both of them. The Magus got a 1 on the table and had to walk on from his board edge, meaning he did exactly jack squat the whole game. The Stealers killed my Devastators and managed to lock 2 of my Razorbacks in combat without actually hurting them. They fell back and the Land Raider turned one unit of Stealers into mulch, with the help of my other Razorback. Unfortunately it wasn't enough, because the Hive Guard managed to down the Darkshroud after having finished the Nephilim the turn before (with some Smite help from the Patriarchs) and he was wearing down my Dreadnoughts with the Biovores. So many mortal wounds. He then ambushed the 20 Stealerbugs with the Primus and got another 5 on the Ambush table, thus managing to lock down basically all of my vehicles and killing my tactical squad. I let Azrael and the Dreadnoughts join the fun, and together managed to, by the end of the game, drop all of the Genestealers, the Patriarchs, and the Primus. Unfortunately, it held me back deep in my backfield for too long, and the Termagants got well away with the relic before I could come roaring out of my corner and bring the fight to them. The game ended on turn 5, which resulted in me scoring a big fat zero on the devastating defeat. Azrael did good work in close combat, killing both Patriarchs on separate turns with his sword. He's a monster, but really too valuable to risk that way. I really lost because I rolled crap on the maelstrom table for the mission. If I had rolled better objectives I could have perhaps at least lost with a little dignity instead of taking a zero for points.

Game 2 was the kill point mission. My opponent was running Astra Militarum, with Pask in a Demolisher, a regular Tank Commander in a Punisher, 3 Wyverns, 1 Earthshaker cannon, a Manticore, a Master of Ordnance, 2 Leman Russ Battle Tanks, a 20-man Conscript squad, a 10-man Guardsman squad, and a Shadowsword. My opponent went first and I failed to seize, resulting in me losing both of my Devastator squads (4 of my 10 valuable Lascannons) and my Darkshroud. I did reciprocate by killing the Guardsman squad and Pask, though, netting me First Strike and Slay the Warlord. Most of the game was me killing a couple of his tanks and all of his foot infantry and me slowly being obliterated by mainly that damn Shadowsword and its Volcano Cannon. The Land Raider had the Tactical squad inside it and exploded in Azrael's face, giving him 3 mortal wounds (ouch!). Those Tacticals all survived the explosion, and after that shooting phase they lost all but the sergeant to both shooting and a bad morale phase. That sergeant was a hero by denying my opponent a Maelstrom point on my turn, though. By turn 5 I decided that my only hope was to not get tabled because I was ahead on Maelstrom points. I had a Razorback, the Lieutenant, and Azrael left and they ran behind some ruins to get away from most of the enemy fire. The Razorback didn't make it, but Azrael and the Lieutenant did, and luckily the game ended after turn 6 with me winning the Maelstrom part, my opponent winning the Killpoints part, and we each had 2 specials (both had First Strike, I had Slay the Warlord, he had King of the Hill). So, it was a draw with me only having 2 plucky survivors keeping me from being tabled.

Game 3 was The Scouring, and I faced a Tau list. It had a Commander (2 Burst, 1 Missile pod), 3 12-man Strike Teams, a Fireblade, 2 10-man Pathfinder teams with 3 Rail Rifles, 3 Rail Rifle Broadsides, and 2 Riptides with Heavy Burst Cannons and Smart Missiles. I went second again, but my opponent only managed to kill one of the Devastator Squads and take a couple of wounds off of the Darkshroud. That thing really frustrated my opponent the whole game, with that -1 To Hit just killing his shooting. Of course I had a lot of my stuff within its bubble, so my opponent wisely decided that it had to go, he just didn't get it done (it survived the game). I proceeded to take my opponent's list apart piece by piece, with me getting Slay the Warlord with my Nephilim on the final turn (we actually only made it to turn 3 because of a couple of lengthy rules clarifications ). I scored the maximum 19 points for the game, so a great victory for the Sons of the Lion! Actually it really came down to him having just godawful luck with his dice, and my dice were incredibly hot (I could not fail a 4+ invulnerable save with Azrael!).

My takeaways:
Azrael is and always has been a beast in 8th edition. Those rerolls to hit are absolutely clutch in many cases, and the 4++ he gives keeps your vehicles alive far longer than they would be otherwise. Not so great for infantry since it is a per model and doesn't confer to the whole unit if they are outside of it. Plus he gives a command point just for showing up!
The Darkshroud is another must take unit for me from now on. It is a great way to increase the survivability of your units and can draw a lot of fire itself before it dies. Of course if its luck runs out because of failed Azrael saves...
The Nephilim did good work for me in game 3, but was somewhat lackluster otherwise. I think the Dark Talon is probably better at the same job, although even if I'd had one I'm not sure it would have helped in the other two games. It became a bullseye with wings in those games and did not hold up to concerted enemy fire, and of course Smite really hurts it with only 10 wounds. That being said, it's not a bad choice, but perhaps better with the Lascannons as an anti-vehicle platform (leaving anti-infantry to the Dark Talon).
The Land Raider Crusader was probably the worst thing in my list, although it really put on the hurt in game 3 with all those shots. It's a huge point sink (314 points the way I ran it) and if it gets locked in combat it just sits there like a bump on a log, albeit a very durable one. I'd have been better served by a Dark Talon and a third Assault Cannon Razorback, but alas I don't currently have those models (working on the Dark Talon though!). It does have certain psychological impact, as two of my opponents didn't even really bother trying to kill it thinking it would be a waste of shots.
I think a core component of all of my competitive Dark Angels lists will be Azrael+PrimeLT+Darkshroud. That stack of buffs is a massive force and durability multiplier and can win games. Just watch out for psykers.

While I was at the FLGS I picked myself up a Repulsor, so I can't wait to get it built and painted and try it out in some games!

Cool!

I'm working on converting my effectively useless land speeder storm into a Darkshroud now, I keep hearing good things. It's like a bubble of kind-of Raven Guard chapter tactics. Who else gets a vehicle with such a neat little aura.

May have to reconsider my DW focused list too, Azreal & company seem soooo useful. I really like combining Asmodai and a DW ancient for ridiculously numerous power fist attacks, but you can't take those, Belial, AND Azreal... Well I'll make em all eventually.

I'm seriously considering backing off on the knights and sticking to aura-enhanced DWT for teleport maneuvers. Dropping the knights means I don't *need* a land raider and I could fit in a Repulsor or a razorback trio or at least a couple of dreads to chill with Azreal...

Hmm time to draw up some more lists!

 GrimDork wrote:
Cool!

I'm working on converting my effectively useless land speeder storm into a Darkshroud now, I keep hearing good things. It's like a bubble of kind-of Raven Guard chapter tactics. Who else gets a vehicle with such a neat little aura.

May have to reconsider my DW focused list too, Azreal & company seem soooo useful. I really like combining Asmodai and a DW ancient for ridiculously numerous power fist attacks, but you can't take those, Belial, AND Azreal... Well I'll make em all eventually.

I'm seriously considering backing off on the knights and sticking to aura-enhanced DWT for teleport maneuvers. Dropping the knights means I don't *need* a land raider and I could fit in a Repulsor or a razorback trio or at least a couple of dreads to chill with Azreal...

Hmm time to draw up some more lists!

Deathwing are nice, but I'm not as impressed by them until I'm sure we get the nice price drop on power fists like vanilla SM got. I have yet to get a straight answer on that, and I even asked about it on GW's Facebook page.

Looking at my list and having now looked at the Repulsor in Battlescribe with all those weapons, I'm thinking the same list I ran would have been so much better with a Repulsor instead of a Land Raider. The Repulsor can just fly out of combat and still shoot its weapons, where a Land Raider cannot. The fragstorm launchers on the Repulsor are a decent analog of the Hurricane Bolters on the LR Crusader, but shorter ranged and much more swingy. Indeed, the Repulsor can be tailored to nearly any list with all of its myriad weapon options. Which means I'd better get ready to install a LOT of magnets on mine...

That's a good idea..need to put in an order myself.

Chaos seems to have gotten cheaper fists so I'd say that's extra hope for us.

What kind of loadout would be ideal for a Prime LT?

I pretty much always take the Auto Bolt Rifle for the Lieutenant, as I don't want him to be in combat because that's not his purpose. If I were to run him with a CC-oriented unit like Reivers or something I might give him the power sword instead because he does get lots of attacks. Usually I keep him back with Azrael to have reroll abilities to rival even Roboute Guilliman's.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I just played in a tournament earlier today, so I thought I might post an after-action report here in case anyone finds it enlightening or at least fun to read. The points level was 2000 points, and we were using ITC missions and rules. I was running the exact list that I posted here Here's a quick summary of how the games went.

Game 1 was The Relic, and my opponent was running Tyranids with Genestealer Cult. His list had a Malanthrope as his Warlord, 3 units of Hive Guard with Impaler Cannons, 2 units of Biovores, a 20-strong unit of Termagants, 2 GSC Patriarchs, a Primus, a Magus, and 3 units of Purestrain Genestealers (2 with 16 and 1 with 20 models). I set up my models with my Devastators and Tacticals screening the rest of my army as best they could, which turned out not to be good enough. I got as many of my vehicles and stuff next to the power trio of Azrael, PrimeLT, and Darkshroud, and although I did not get first turn I actually siezed. I still failed to kill very much on my first turn, bagging 3 Hive Guard from 2 different units. My opponent Cult Ambushed 2 of his Stealer blobs (the 16 model ones), along with the Patriarchs and got 5's on the Ambush table for both of them. The Magus got a 1 on the table and had to walk on from his board edge, meaning he did exactly jack squat the whole game. The Stealers killed my Devastators and managed to lock 2 of my Razorbacks in combat without actually hurting them. They fell back and the Land Raider turned one unit of Stealers into mulch, with the help of my other Razorback. Unfortunately it wasn't enough, because the Hive Guard managed to down the Darkshroud after having finished the Nephilim the turn before (with some Smite help from the Patriarchs) and he was wearing down my Dreadnoughts with the Biovores. So many mortal wounds. He then ambushed the 20 Stealerbugs with the Primus and got another 5 on the Ambush table, thus managing to lock down basically all of my vehicles and killing my tactical squad. I let Azrael and the Dreadnoughts join the fun, and together managed to, by the end of the game, drop all of the Genestealers, the Patriarchs, and the Primus. Unfortunately, it held me back deep in my backfield for too long, and the Termagants got well away with the relic before I could come roaring out of my corner and bring the fight to them. The game ended on turn 5, which resulted in me scoring a big fat zero on the devastating defeat. Azrael did good work in close combat, killing both Patriarchs on separate turns with his sword. He's a monster, but really too valuable to risk that way. I really lost because I rolled crap on the maelstrom table for the mission. If I had rolled better objectives I could have perhaps at least lost with a little dignity instead of taking a zero for points.

Game 2 was the kill point mission. My opponent was running Astra Militarum, with Pask in a Demolisher, a regular Tank Commander in a Punisher, 3 Wyverns, 1 Earthshaker cannon, a Manticore, a Master of Ordnance, 2 Leman Russ Battle Tanks, a 20-man Conscript squad, a 10-man Guardsman squad, and a Shadowsword. My opponent went first and I failed to seize, resulting in me losing both of my Devastator squads (4 of my 10 valuable Lascannons) and my Darkshroud. I did reciprocate by killing the Guardsman squad and Pask, though, netting me First Strike and Slay the Warlord. Most of the game was me killing a couple of his tanks and all of his foot infantry and me slowly being obliterated by mainly that damn Shadowsword and its Volcano Cannon. The Land Raider had the Tactical squad inside it and exploded in Azrael's face, giving him 3 mortal wounds (ouch!). Those Tacticals all survived the explosion, and after that shooting phase they lost all but the sergeant to both shooting and a bad morale phase. That sergeant was a hero by denying my opponent a Maelstrom point on my turn, though. By turn 5 I decided that my only hope was to not get tabled because I was ahead on Maelstrom points. I had a Razorback, the Lieutenant, and Azrael left and they ran behind some ruins to get away from most of the enemy fire. The Razorback didn't make it, but Azrael and the Lieutenant did, and luckily the game ended after turn 6 with me winning the Maelstrom part, my opponent winning the Killpoints part, and we each had 2 specials (both had First Strike, I had Slay the Warlord, he had King of the Hill). So, it was a draw with me only having 2 plucky survivors keeping me from being tabled.

Game 3 was The Scouring, and I faced a Tau list. It had a Commander (2 Burst, 1 Missile pod), 3 12-man Strike Teams, a Fireblade, 2 10-man Pathfinder teams with 3 Rail Rifles, 3 Rail Rifle Broadsides, and 2 Riptides with Heavy Burst Cannons and Smart Missiles. I went second again, but my opponent only managed to kill one of the Devastator Squads and take a couple of wounds off of the Darkshroud. That thing really frustrated my opponent the whole game, with that -1 To Hit just killing his shooting. Of course I had a lot of my stuff within its bubble, so my opponent wisely decided that it had to go, he just didn't get it done (it survived the game). I proceeded to take my opponent's list apart piece by piece, with me getting Slay the Warlord with my Nephilim on the final turn (we actually only made it to turn 3 because of a couple of lengthy rules clarifications ). I scored the maximum 19 points for the game, so a great victory for the Sons of the Lion! Actually it really came down to him having just godawful luck with his dice, and my dice were incredibly hot (I could not fail a 4+ invulnerable save with Azrael!).

My takeaways:
Azrael is and always has been a beast in 8th edition. Those rerolls to hit are absolutely clutch in many cases, and the 4++ he gives keeps your vehicles alive far longer than they would be otherwise. Not so great for infantry since it is a per model and doesn't confer to the whole unit if they are outside of it. Plus he gives a command point just for showing up!
The Darkshroud is another must take unit for me from now on. It is a great way to increase the survivability of your units and can draw a lot of fire itself before it dies. Of course if its luck runs out because of failed Azrael saves...
The Nephilim did good work for me in game 3, but was somewhat lackluster otherwise. I think the Dark Talon is probably better at the same job, although even if I'd had one I'm not sure it would have helped in the other two games. It became a bullseye with wings in those games and did not hold up to concerted enemy fire, and of course Smite really hurts it with only 10 wounds. That being said, it's not a bad choice, but perhaps better with the Lascannons as an anti-vehicle platform (leaving anti-infantry to the Dark Talon).
The Land Raider Crusader was probably the worst thing in my list, although it really put on the hurt in game 3 with all those shots. It's a huge point sink (314 points the way I ran it) and if it gets locked in combat it just sits there like a bump on a log, albeit a very durable one. I'd have been better served by a Dark Talon and a third Assault Cannon Razorback, but alas I don't currently have those models (working on the Dark Talon though!). It does have certain psychological impact, as two of my opponents didn't even really bother trying to kill it thinking it would be a waste of shots.
I think a core component of all of my competitive Dark Angels lists will be Azrael+PrimeLT+Darkshroud. That stack of buffs is a massive force and durability multiplier and can win games. Just watch out for psykers.

While I was at the FLGS I picked myself up a Repulsor, so I can't wait to get it built and painted and try it out in some games!

Your match ups kindve hightlight why i made some changes to my recent list. I was coming across alot of smite spammy lists -- mostly out of chaos but fearing the same from trynids. So i started running Ezekiel and a Culexus. Ezekiel is probably a bit overkill but he's pretty good this edition. They are both decent combat units and more importantly can really shut down enemy psyker phases.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I pretty much always take the Auto Bolt Rifle for the Lieutenant, as I don't want him to be in combat because that's not his purpose. If I were to run him with a CC-oriented unit like Reivers or something I might give him the power sword instead because he does get lots of attacks. Usually I keep him back with Azrael to have reroll abilities to rival even Roboute Guilliman's.

I have always taken the opposite. I dont see his bolter as doing that much work so ive come to rely on him for combat aid when the line gets broken. If a unit breaks through, him, Azrael and two ven dreads usually put them to sleep.

Widied wrote:
Your match ups kindve hightlight why i made some changes to my recent list. I was coming across alot of smite spammy lists -- mostly out of chaos but fearing the same from trynids. So i started running Ezekiel and a Culexus. Ezekiel is probably a bit overkill but he's pretty good this edition. They are both decent combat units and more importantly can really shut down enemy psyker phases.

Only the one list had psykers in it; the others did not. Smite spam was the least of my worries that day, although at least a couple of the other players had lots of Malefic Lords. I'm not sure even Ezekiel or the Culexus could have kept up with those lists. *shudder*

That said, I've run Ezekiel before and he is very, very good, both for denying psychic powers and throwing around a couple of his own. Plus he's pretty mean in combat as well. I have yet to try a Culexus Assassin; the only Assassin I've tried is the Vindicare, and I did like him.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I pretty much always take the Auto Bolt Rifle for the Lieutenant, as I don't want him to be in combat because that's not his purpose. If I were to run him with a CC-oriented unit like Reivers or something I might give him the power sword instead because he does get lots of attacks. Usually I keep him back with Azrael to have reroll abilities to rival even Roboute Guilliman's.

I have always taken the opposite. I dont see his bolter as doing that much work so ive come to rely on him for combat aid when the line gets broken. If a unit breaks through, him, Azrael and two ven dreads usually put them to sleep.

I figure if the enemy is bringing the fight to the core of my force things have gotten very dire indeed. Whereas the bolt rifle allows the Lieutenant to harass something even at longer ranges. Came in handy to swat a few spore mines that those Biovores landed near my characters and Dreadnoughts. Also, I figure Azrael and the Dreadnoughts can take care of most things that break through without the Lieutenant needing a power sword. He punches okay without it, anyways.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Widied wrote:
Your match ups kindve hightlight why i made some changes to my recent list. I was coming across alot of smite spammy lists -- mostly out of chaos but fearing the same from trynids. So i started running Ezekiel and a Culexus. Ezekiel is probably a bit overkill but he's pretty good this edition. They are both decent combat units and more importantly can really shut down enemy psyker phases.

Only the one list had psykers in it; the others did not. Smite spam was the least of my worries that day, although at least a couple of the other players had lots of Malefic Lords. I'm not sure even Ezekiel or the Culexus could have kept up with those lists. *shudder*

That said, I've run Ezekiel before and he is very, very good, both for denying psychic powers and throwing around a couple of his own. Plus he's pretty mean in combat as well. I have yet to try a Culexus Assassin; the only Assassin I've tried is the Vindicare, and I did like him.

Yeah. Fair enough. We have a Chaos heavy meta at the moment so psyker defense is definitely needed. Though I'm not sure if Ezekiel is necessarily worth it. Though no matter how I tend to tech my list, he's only ever 20 or so points higher than whatever libby I come up with. That never seems not worth it... the Culexus in theory with a LIbby does create a gap of +3. I will likely try it next. We've been doing an escalation league so 2000 points is next and I'll have some points to include him.

What are your thoughts about the dark vengeance for a starting point in 8th? Am I better off just better getting DI? How do the two sets compliment each other?

 Egyptian Space Zombie wrote:
What are your thoughts about the dark vengeance for a starting point in 8th? Am I better off just better getting DI? How do the two sets compliment each other?

you should really buy what you think looks cool and fits your play style. Everything will change once we get our codex.

If you want to be competitive today, buy Azreal and a bunch of dreadnaughts with gunz.

I converted Azrael from the company master from Dark Vengeance because he looks better and the pose is nicer. The librarian model is nice too. DV is a great starter set for DA.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Widied wrote:
Your match ups kindve hightlight why i made some changes to my recent list. I was coming across alot of smite spammy lists -- mostly out of chaos but fearing the same from trynids. So i started running Ezekiel and a Culexus. Ezekiel is probably a bit overkill but he's pretty good this edition. They are both decent combat units and more importantly can really shut down enemy psyker phases.

Only the one list had psykers in it; the others did not. Smite spam was the least of my worries that day, although at least a couple of the other players had lots of Malefic Lords. I'm not sure even Ezekiel or the Culexus could have kept up with those lists. *shudder*

That said, I've run Ezekiel before and he is very, very good, both for denying psychic powers and throwing around a couple of his own. Plus he's pretty mean in combat as well. I have yet to try a Culexus Assassin; the only Assassin I've tried is the Vindicare, and I did like him.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I pretty much always take the Auto Bolt Rifle for the Lieutenant, as I don't want him to be in combat because that's not his purpose. If I were to run him with a CC-oriented unit like Reivers or something I might give him the power sword instead because he does get lots of attacks. Usually I keep him back with Azrael to have reroll abilities to rival even Roboute Guilliman's.

I have always taken the opposite. I dont see his bolter as doing that much work so ive come to rely on him for combat aid when the line gets broken. If a unit breaks through, him, Azrael and two ven dreads usually put them to sleep.

I figure if the enemy is bringing the fight to the core of my force things have gotten very dire indeed. Whereas the bolt rifle allows the Lieutenant to harass something even at longer ranges. Came in handy to swat a few spore mines that those Biovores landed near my characters and Dreadnoughts. Also, I figure Azrael and the Dreadnoughts can take care of most things that break through without the Lieutenant needing a power sword. He punches okay without it, anyways.

My go to here lately for HQ choices has been Ezekiel, Primaris LT w/ps, and Azrael for when the line gets broken through. I was debating changing it like ZergSmasher has but played a game against nids where I had a 20 stealers and a Patriarch pop up 9" from my screening razorback. The stealers charged the razorback with w/asscan and failed to kill it. On my turn it fell back and I moved Ezekiel, a tac squad, and the Primaris LT up. I cast smite and mind worm on the stealers so i could be sure all my units went first and then shot them with the tac squad, ezekiel and the hb from my darkshroud. After that ezekiel, Prim LT, and tac squad charged in and mopped up. I think If I hadn't been set up so well they would have been in my gun line their next turn which would have been really bad. It's also nice having Ezekiel back to smite stuff like Ghazzy. He came charging across the board my last game and I literally just sat back with ezekiel casting smite and mind worm until he died. Ghazzy only managed to kill an Interrogator-Chaplain and a few tac marines. That combo has just been to game saving to break up for me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That being said having the Bolt Rifle on the Prim LT is still a viable option imo just because as much as i've relied on his ps, there's been many games he didn't do anything but buff (which is fine). But I also only have 1 dread for the moment so I have to get my cc where I can for right now.

Yeah... that's been my experience as of late to be honest. And I'm considering swapping out in the next phase of my league.

So, would this work for a Deathwing List at 2k (1997):

Vanguard Detachment
Belial
Deathwing Ancient, Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield
Deathwing Knights, Watcher
Deathwing Terminators, Power Sword, Chain Fist, Assault Cannon, Watcher
Deathwing Terminators, Power Sword, Chain Fist, Assault Cannon, Watcher
Deathwing Terminators, Power Sword, Chain Fist, Assault Cannon, Watcher

Vanguard Deatchment
Azrael
Venerable Dreadnought, Lascannon, Twin Autocannon
Venerable Dreadnought, Lascannon, Twin Autocannon
Venerable Dreadnought, Lascannon, Twin Autocannon

 infinite_array wrote:
So, would this work for a Deathwing List at 2k (1997):

Vanguard Detachment
Belial
Deathwing Ancient, Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield
Deathwing Knights, Watcher
Deathwing Terminators, Power Sword, Chain Fist, Assault Cannon, Watcher
Deathwing Terminators, Power Sword, Chain Fist, Assault Cannon, Watcher
Deathwing Terminators, Power Sword, Chain Fist, Assault Cannon, Watcher

Vanguard Deatchment
Azrael
Venerable Dreadnought, Lascannon, Twin Autocannon
Venerable Dreadnought, Lascannon, Twin Autocannon
Venerable Dreadnought, Lascannon, Twin Autocannon

Yup. That's almost the exact list I've ran a few times now and it's been super successful. The venerable dreads plus Azreal is very powerful. The only difference in our lists is that I ran 2 apothecarys, but I was finding them very hit or miss, so I was going to swap in the ancient for the 2 apothecarys next game.

Although, I'm also strongly considering dropping the knights and going with another Deathwing squad instead. They are slow, DS charge is extremely unreliable, and they end up getting kited around many games not doing much.

I've also been running 2 nephilims and a Dark talon in place of the 3 dreads and the added mobility is huge for a Deathwing army.

If the swap of knights for another regular squad works, count my in. That's another DV set from ebay, which is much cheaper.

I think in that list swapping the DW Knights for regular Termies is a good idea, because Knights really need a Land Raider to work well. If you do drop them, I think I'd swap out the Ancient for either an Apothecary or a Champion, or even a Terminator Librarian.

I don't know, maybe I'm just getting lucky, but I had another crushing win with my Deathwing today for the Konor campaign mission.

It's been a long time since i've felt like Deathwing might be better than just a fluffy army. And to think, they might get better with our new codex...

I think it would be a real dick move to keep non-codex marine power fists at 20 points after both nilla and chaos saw the drop to 12. That's 32 points a unit for typical shooty DWT squads, can't complain there. Plus relics, strategems, all that jazz.

Of course then there's crap like chaos losing cult marines as troops and certain things being dropped and only available in legacy index...so I guess we'll see.

 GrimDork wrote:
I think it would be a real dick move to keep non-codex marine power fists at 20 points after both nilla and chaos saw the drop to 12. That's 32 points a unit for typical shooty DWT squads, can't complain there. Plus relics, strategems, all that jazz.

Of course then there's crap like chaos losing cult marines as troops and certain things being dropped and only available in legacy index...so I guess we'll see.

I agree on the Power Fist thing, but the new Chaos FAQ just gave World Eaters and Emperor's Children their cult troops back.

32 point Deathwing Terminators would be sweet! Although with only the change to the cost of Fists they'd be 40 (26 for body, 12 for fist and 2 for storm bolter), so still better than what we've got now. I could actually take a decent Deathwing contingent and still have a solid presence on the ground on the first turn beyond just Azrael and a couple of Venerable Dreads.

 GrimDork wrote:
I think it would be a real dick move to keep non-codex marine power fists at 20 points after both nilla and chaos saw the drop to 12. That's 32 points a unit for typical shooty DWT squads, can't complain there. Plus relics, strategems, all that jazz.

Of course then there's crap like chaos losing cult marines as troops and certain things being dropped and only available in legacy index...so I guess we'll see.

Yes, the new FAQ just dropped today and fixed the chaos cult troops. I'm still concerned our Deathwing won't be troops though, this gives me a little hope that they might be, or be unlockable as troops at least. I've been playing with the new power fist points costs. I always ask my opponent since GW can't be bothered to give clarity, but the argument has been made too many times to me that you just use the unit entry of the index and the updated points costs out of the SM codex per that GW statement, even though it seemed a bit unclear as to the intent.

In 2k games I've been running 27 terminators (Belial and the ancient included), and my 3 DA flyers (2 nephs and a DT), and every game the flyers are the stars as they can put fire power exactly where I need it from almost anywhere on the board, and the terms sit on objectives and DS in where needed to soften targets up. It's been super consistent and very strong so far in 8th.

Sorry I meant saving 32 points per unit of 5 DWT, not 32/model

So, now that I've got a Repulsor under construction I was wondering about loadouts. I'll be magnetizing my model extensively (of course!), but I'd still be curious to hear some opinions on what weapons would be better on it as opposed to another unit.

Fly and PotMS together mean it will basically always shoot and at full capacity. Which is pretty neat.

My gut says the 4 lascannon shots (yes two are talon but still) and the 5-30 bolter/grenade shots or so you can get. Then it's basically armed with the same main guns of both phobos and crusader pattern land raiders at once

Otherwise... You could tailor it to either cover whatever it's passengers can't do (lascannon support for Aggressors, onslaughts for Hellblasters) or double down on what they're already packing... I imagine deploying 3 Aggressors with gravis captain and a lieutenant from an onslaught+grenade Repulsor world just melt hordes.

I can't decide on the autolaunchers. It's cool that you could, in theory, pop smoke every round and give plasma fits (overcharge becomes 33% mortality rate lol)... But it seems like such a waste to give up 7-8 guns worth of shooting to do so. And then again...if the thing is absorbing your opponents entire shooting turn...may be worth it. Makes me wonder about sending it out with a dark shroud hidden behind it to make -2 lol. Or you can assume you'll always shoot and merrily slap on another grenade spammer...

I don't see myself ever taking the auto launchers over the extra frag launchers. I do like the idea of 5d6 shots, but I think Storm Bolters could have their place on this thing as well especially if points are really tight. Too bad the Repulsor is a Dedicated Transport instead of Heavy Support; I could use it to help fill a Spearhead detachment otherwise.

Storm bolters are probably cheaper and more reliable too.

One thought: the grenades are all 18" right? To fully benefit from SBs you'll need to be 6" closer, whereas 18" +2 from the Repulsor field keeps you hard to charge in one turn.

Of course if you're gonna drive some d00ds up close and unload them, that extra range may be moot.

2 points for a 4 shot storm bolter is so good...

bobafett012 wrote:
2 points for a 4 shot storm bolter is so good...

I know, right? I only finally got around to building a Tactical Sergeant with a storm bolter for when I don't have points for a combi-weapon. Storm bolters used to be a stupid choice for a character, now they are a very nice little point filler, good for squeezing every last point out of a list.

So I was just, is anyone having any luck with running pure greenwing or pure ravenwing? I've been playing around with pure greenwing and have had some success with it though I've pretty much given up on trying to make tac marines worth anything, at least outside of very casual games. Even then they are pretty terrible.

And I guess it's not technically "pure" greenwing since I have a Dark Shroud and Dark Talon in every list. Pretty sure I'm getting another Dark Talon though. Great for hordes/conscript killing and the Rift Cannon is pretty awesome.

Anyways, just wondering if anyone else is trying this.

 ILegion wrote:
So I was just, is anyone having any luck with running pure greenwing or pure ravenwing? I've been playing around with pure greenwing and have had some success with it though I've pretty much given up on trying to make tac marines worth anything, at least outside of very casual games. Even then they are pretty terrible.

And I guess it's not technically "pure" greenwing since I have a Dark Shroud and Dark Talon in every list. Pretty sure I'm getting another Dark Talon though. Great for hordes/conscript killing and the Rift Cannon is pretty awesome.

Anyways, just wondering if anyone else is trying this.

In my last tournament I basically ran nothing but greenwing. I had Azrael, a Primaris Lieutenant, three Dreadnoughts (one of which was Venerable), three Razorbacks, a Land Raider Crusader, a couple of Devastator squads, and the only non-Greenwing options I had were a Darkshroud and a Nephilim Jetfighter. Okay, technically the Venerable Dreadnought is Deathwing, but whatever. I actually had 1 win, 1 tie, and 1 loss. In the game I lost (which was against Genestealer Cult/Tyranids), I played a lot better than I scored. I kept rolling crappy Maelstrom objectives (usually on the other side of the table) and I could never get to the Relic because my vehicles kept getting locked in combat. I managed to break free and kill everything on my side of the table, but the game ended before I could accomplish anything else. Azrael was a BAWSS, killing not one but TWO Patriarchs during the intense melee combat (not on the same turn, even Azrael isn't that badass). The tie game involved me just surviving against an Astra Militarum gunline including a Shadowsword. I only tied because I actually rolled good Maelstrom objectives and my opponent did not. The win was an easy game against a fairly non-optimized Tau list. I put a little mini-report in this thread a page or two back, read it for a little more detail.

TL;DR: Greenwing may be the best way to run Dark Angels right now. Azrael is a must take for competitive play; his auras are just too good to live without. Bring a firebase of Dreadnoughts and Devastators and perhaps some AssCan Razorbacks and you'll wreck some face, provided you can keep those units out of melee combat (bring some cheap Tacticals, Scouts, or maybe even Intercessors for bubble wrap purposes). Darkshrouds are also solid, as are the flyers (Dark Talon is better but I don't have mine built yet).

I'm building pure RW currently in a slow grow league (currently at 1000pts expanding to 1250pts). I've been mostly outmatched in my early games as I don't have a lot of models or any hard hitters, but this changed as soon as I added the dark Talon at 1000pts. I had a good shot of winning a game last weekend but rolled a double 1 for damage with 2 meltas (used a command reroll already and wasn't in 6") at a contemptor dread.
I thinkmy list will be better at 1500pts when I finally add Sammael and a darkshroud.

How do you face the lack of HS we have compared to Vanilla Marines?

@Zergsmasher - Went back and read the report. I appreciate it and glad to know i'm not the only one doing this. Due to moving and crap I haven't been able to play a tournament (only causal games) but am doing something similar. I'm lookinga at running Azzy, Libby, Prim Lt., 3 x scouts, 4 x razors with TL asscans, Shroud, Talon, 2 x dev (1 ML/1LC) and 2 las preds. I haven't kept track of W/L but i think I'm ahead on wins so far. I've been trying tac squads for screening but they have been pretty lackluster. Going to give the scouts a go. My biggest concern with this has been mobility really since the majority of my points don't move much. I was wondering if that's been an issue for anyone else running something similar.

@bullyboy - I haven't put any bikes on the table yet. I feel like they took a big hit loosing jink and re-roll saves. I wasn't sure if they would last long with all the AP-, multi-wound causing weapons. What's been giving you the most headaches?

@Cybtroll - Honestly, I haven't seen a huge problem with a lack of HS compared to smurfs. Mainly because Azzy is one of the strongest HQs out their imo. His reroll hits and 4++ is pretty clutch. Also, I've occasionally thrown a techmarine in there and my preds rarely die and do A LOT of damage. I'm really hoping ours get the same points reduction the C:SM got. Competitively, I think (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) smurfs are really good taking a lot of ML devs and Guilliman. Azzy and a Prim Lt. are doing about the same thing for about 100 pts less, as far as rerolls are concerned, while also granting a 4++ bubble.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 ILegion wrote:
So I was just, is anyone having any luck with running pure greenwing or pure ravenwing? I've been playing around with pure greenwing and have had some success with it though I've pretty much given up on trying to make tac marines worth anything, at least outside of very casual games. Even then they are pretty terrible.

And I guess it's not technically "pure" greenwing since I have a Dark Shroud and Dark Talon in every list. Pretty sure I'm getting another Dark Talon though. Great for hordes/conscript killing and the Rift Cannon is pretty awesome.

Anyways, just wondering if anyone else is trying this.

In my last tournament I basically ran nothing but greenwing. I had Azrael, a Primaris Lieutenant, three Dreadnoughts (one of which was Venerable), three Razorbacks, a Land Raider Crusader, a couple of Devastator squads, and the only non-Greenwing options I had were a Darkshroud and a Nephilim Jetfighter. Okay, technically the Venerable Dreadnought is Deathwing, but whatever. I actually had 1 win, 1 tie, and 1 loss. In the game I lost (which was against Genestealer Cult/Tyranids), I played a lot better than I scored. I kept rolling crappy Maelstrom objectives (usually on the other side of the table) and I could never get to the Relic because my vehicles kept getting locked in combat. I managed to break free and kill everything on my side of the table, but the game ended before I could accomplish anything else. Azrael was a BAWSS, killing not one but TWO Patriarchs during the intense melee combat (not on the same turn, even Azrael isn't that badass). The tie game involved me just surviving against an Astra Militarum gunline including a Shadowsword. I only tied because I actually rolled good Maelstrom objectives and my opponent did not. The win was an easy game against a fairly non-optimized Tau list. I put a little mini-report in this thread a page or two back, read it for a little more detail.

TL;DR: Greenwing may be the best way to run Dark Angels right now. Azrael is a must take for competitive play; his auras are just too good to live without. Bring a firebase of Dreadnoughts and Devastators and perhaps some AssCan Razorbacks and you'll wreck some face, provided you can keep those units out of melee combat (bring some cheap Tacticals, Scouts, or maybe even Intercessors for bubble wrap purposes). Darkshrouds are also solid, as are the flyers (Dark Talon is better but I don't have mine built yet).

Venerable can be either wing iirc.

hello
sorry if this answer exists before,
but does the darkshroud modifier stack?
thanks

 Snail22 wrote:
hello
sorry if this answer exists before,
but does the darkshroud modifier stack?
thanks

Based on the wording, I'd say it does not stack. It says "If a unit is within 6" of any Ravenwing Darkshrouds...", which leads me to believe it's like the Tau Drone Controller, which also doesn't stack for the same reason.

I've had a couple games now with Asmodai + DW Ancient + DW Knights and it's been pretty good for me. I have not made one charge out of deep strike yet, but putting a dark shroud near them keeps them alive for the next turn.
The extra attacks help out a ton on the knights.

meanwhile, I've yet to have any luck with ravenwing knights. Might be my dice, but twice now they've been tarpitted by 10x scouts or tacts and slowly whittled down. The plasma talon is just too situational. Not enough shots to do real damage, or you overcharge and get wrecked by get's hot with all the minus 1's to hit.
I think they are getting subbed out by 2 typhoon landspeeders next game.

So, I've been brainstorming tournament list ideas recently, and I fiddled around in Battlescribe and came up with this:
Detachment 1: Vanguard Detachment
HQ:
Azrael
Primaris Lieutenant: MC Auto Bolt Rifle
Elites:
Dreadnought: Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannon
Dreadnought: Twin Lascannon, DCW w/Storm Bolter
Venerable Dreadnought: Twin Lascannon, DCW w/Storm Bolter
Fast Attack:
Ravenwing Darkshroud: Heavy Bolter
Dedicated Transport:
Repulsor: Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, 5x Fragstorm Grenade Launcher, Twin Lascannon, Ironhail Heavy Stubber
Detachment 2: Air Wing Detachment
Ravenwing Dark Talon
Ravenwing Dark Talon
Nephilim Jetfighter: Twin Lascannon
Detachment 3: Patrol Detachment
HQ:
Lord Commissar: Bolt Pistol, Power Sword
Troops:
25 Conscripts
25 Conscripts
Total 1998 points
In my local meta, bubble wrap can mean the difference between victory and defeat, as we've got some nasty turn 1 charge alpha strike lists as well as Smite spam used frequently, hence the Conscripts. Otherwise my list is all vehicles and characters, which renders my opponent's anti-infantry weapons useless unless he just feels like scragging 3 point conscripts that aren't really accomplishing much anyway after the first couple of turns. The Dark Talons and Repulsor can provide some good horde control, as well as the sheer number of Concripts' lasguns, while the Nephilim and Dreads are mainly there to pick on opposing tanks. I'd prefer to have more anti-tank than this, but I couldn't really find the points unless I drop the Guard stuff completely, and then I'm very vulnerable to things like Genestealer Cult ambushing hordes of Purestrains into my stuff, as well as Smite spam. I could drop some of the cultists and take an AM Heavy Weapons Squad with Lascannons, but I'm not sure that would be worth doing. I'm already going to have to borrow the Guard models as I don't currently own any since I don't play that army. What do you guys think of this list?

 ILegion wrote:

@bullyboy - I haven't put any bikes on the table yet. I feel like they took a big hit loosing jink and re-roll saves. I wasn't sure if they would last long with all the AP-, multi-wound causing weapons. What's been giving you the most headaches?
.

Mainly just lack of model count at the low point levels, and inability to strip wounds off the larger monsters/vehicles I'm facing. I do understand that the list will get much better as the points increase but relying on melta to take out large wound models is tough due to range. The Nephilim seems like a great equalizer but I don't want to rely on too many fliers at this point. I'd rather sharpen my tactics with what I have for now and then expand.

At 1250pts my list is currently

Chaplain HQ
4 Black Knights
Apothecary
3 bikes with 2 meltas
Attack bike with MM
Landspeeder with AC/HB
4 bikes with 2 plasmas
LS vengeance
Dark talon

I believe I have points for combi-weapons etc.

At 1500pts I plan to add Sammael and Darkshroud. Not a huge fan of the Typhoon (overpriced) but it does give me the ranged multi-wound killing potential I need, so may add that soon. Only othe models I currently have to add are another LS with AC/HB, typhoon, 4 man bike sqd, 2nd Attack Bike, Librarian and Ancient.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
So, I've been brainstorming tournament list ideas recently, and I fiddled around in Battlescribe and came up with this:
Detachment 1: Vanguard Detachment
HQ:
Azrael
Primaris Lieutenant: MC Auto Bolt Rifle
Elites:
Dreadnought: Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannon
Dreadnought: Twin Lascannon, DCW w/Storm Bolter
Venerable Dreadnought: Twin Lascannon, DCW w/Storm Bolter
Fast Attack:
Ravenwing Darkshroud: Heavy Bolter
Dedicated Transport:
Repulsor: Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, 5x Fragstorm Grenade Launcher, Twin Lascannon, Ironhail Heavy Stubber
Detachment 2: Air Wing Detachment
Ravenwing Dark Talon
Ravenwing Dark Talon
Nephilim Jetfighter: Twin Lascannon
Detachment 3: Patrol Detachment
HQ:
Lord Commissar: Bolt Pistol, Power Sword
Troops:
25 Conscripts
25 Conscripts
Total 1998 points
In my local meta, bubble wrap can mean the difference between victory and defeat, as we've got some nasty turn 1 charge alpha strike lists as well as Smite spam used frequently, hence the Conscripts. Otherwise my list is all vehicles and characters, which renders my opponent's anti-infantry weapons useless unless he just feels like scragging 3 point conscripts that aren't really accomplishing much anyway after the first couple of turns. The Dark Talons and Repulsor can provide some good horde control, as well as the sheer number of Concripts' lasguns, while the Nephilim and Dreads are mainly there to pick on opposing tanks. I'd prefer to have more anti-tank than this, but I couldn't really find the points unless I drop the Guard stuff completely, and then I'm very vulnerable to things like Genestealer Cult ambushing hordes of Purestrains into my stuff, as well as Smite spam. I could drop some of the cultists and take an AM Heavy Weapons Squad with Lascannons, but I'm not sure that would be worth doing. I'm already going to have to borrow the Guard models as I don't currently own any since I don't play that army. What do you guys think of this list?

I've thought about doing something similar to this with the conscripts. I have a bunch of IG lying around and they would be better bubble wrap than scouts. From what I can tell, it doesn't seem like HWT with lascannons would be worth it considering they hit on 4+ unless you can find points to add in a character giving them rerolls but I don't think it'd be worth it for 1 HWT. Plus, I think you're better off sticking with DA for shooting. They're more accurate and more durable. How many points are the repulsor? Just wondering if you'd be better off with 2 razors w/twin asscans and maybe more AT? Not sure you'd have the points for it though? I will say the repulsor being able to fly out of combat and still shoot is pretty appealing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:

 ILegion wrote:

@bullyboy - I haven't put any bikes on the table yet. I feel like they took a big hit loosing jink and re-roll saves. I wasn't sure if they would last long with all the AP-, multi-wound causing weapons. What's been giving you the most headaches?
.

Mainly just lack of model count at the low point levels, and inability to strip wounds off the larger monsters/vehicles I'm facing. I do understand that the list will get much better as the points increase but relying on melta to take out large wound models is tough due to range. The Nephilim seems like a great equalizer but I don't want to rely on too many fliers at this point. I'd rather sharpen my tactics with what I have for now and then expand.

At 1250pts my list is currently

Chaplain HQ
4 Black Knights
Apothecary
3 bikes with 2 meltas
Attack bike with MM
Landspeeder with AC/HB
4 bikes with 2 plasmas
LS vengeance
Dark talon

I believe I have points for combi-weapons etc.

At 1500pts I plan to add Sammael and Darkshroud. Not a huge fan of the Typhoon (overpriced) but it does give me the ranged multi-wound killing potential I need, so may add that soon. Only othe models I currently have to add are another LS with AC/HB, typhoon, 4 man bike sqd, 2nd Attack Bike, Librarian and Ancient.

I think Sammael could do a lot for you. His rerolls would allow you to get a lot more out of the Knights plasma talons. You can more reliably overcharge but may not want to reroll any 2s with all the -1 to hit floating around. How's the attack bike working out? I haven't used them yet since they move a lot and would spend most the game hitting on 4+. I love the Dark Talon though. I want to get another one in fact. I haven't used a Nephilium yet but if you're doing all ravenwing it would be great for AT.

 ILegion wrote:
I've thought about doing something similar to this with the conscripts. I have a bunch of IG lying around and they would be better bubble wrap than scouts. From what I can tell, it doesn't seem like HWT with lascannons would be worth it considering they hit on 4+ unless you can find points to add in a character giving them rerolls but I don't think it'd be worth it for 1 HWT. Plus, I think you're better off sticking with DA for shooting. They're more accurate and more durable. How many points are the repulsor? Just wondering if you'd be better off with 2 razors w/twin asscans and maybe more AT? Not sure you'd have the points for it though? I will say the repulsor being able to fly out of combat and still shoot is pretty appealing.

The Repulsor as I've kitted it out in that list is 346 points. So yes, I could take 2 AC Razorbacks and a TLC Razorback and that would probably be more optimal, but I really want to try the Repulsor at some point. Right now I've been gaming with my Chaos army, but when I come back to my Dark Angels I hope to have the Repulsor and my flyers ready to play. I really wish I could just swap in the Repulsor for the Land Raider in the list from my last tournament, but sadly it is a Dedicated Transport instead of Heavy Support and so I'd have to come up with another Heavy Support choice (could swap the flyer for some Hellblasters perhaps) for the Spearhead detachment.

So, now that we have all of the Primaris releases out, I thought I might provide some commentary on all of the units available to the Unforgiven right now, and my opinion on how good each unit is. I'll rate each unit on a scale of Outstanding, Competitive, Solid, Underwhelming, or Useless. Keep in mind this is really just my opinion and feel free to disagree and discuss it in the thread. I'm going ahead and keeping it in the DA Tactics thread instead of starting a new one because we really don't need two Dark Angels threads right now and I feel this is at least somewhat on topic. Anyhow, here goes:
HQ:
Azrael: Outstanding: This guy is a must-take in competitive DA armies right now. His aura abilities are phenomenal especially for his points, and he gives you an extra Command Point just for showing up. Combines very well with vehicles, which only have to have a corner within 6" to get the aura benefits.
Belial: Outstanding: Another must-take character, although less so than Azrael since his ability mainly affects only Deathwing units. Still, if you want to run Deathwing this guy is an auto-include. He should usually take his Sword of Silence, as it has some nice special rules.
Ezekiel: Competitive: Probably the best anti-Psyker defense Dark Angels get short of allying in a Culexus Assassin or Sisters of Silence. Plus he can sling a couple of spells of his own each turn, although the Interromancy powers are somewhat underwhelming.
Sammael on Corvex: Competitive: This guy is for Ravenwing what Belial is for Deathwing. It's a pity that Ravenwing or in fact bikes in general aren't very strong in 8th edition. Still a good buy if you want to run an all-Ravenwing army, and he's no slouch in combat.
Sammael in Sableclaw: Underwhelming: This version of Sammael costs more than the jetbike version and can't hide even though he's a character, meaning he'll be a bullseye with wings. His firepower is pretty sweet, though, so he might be good in casual play.
Asmodai: Underwhelming: He's better in 8th edition than he was in at least the two previous editions, but unfortunately that isn't saying much. His only real use is giving DA units around him +1 attack, as his Blades of Reason still can't penetrate armor worth a damn.
Company Master: Solid: This is your Swiss army knife character; he can be kitted out in various ways including a jump pack or Terminator armor, but there still isn't an option for a bike. Usually it's better to take one of the named characters, but some lists can get some mileage out of a regular Company Master.
Primaris Company Master: Solid: Basically a regular Company Master with a little extra kick, including an extra attack and wound. He can take standard Mk. X armor or be given Gravis armor, although his weapon options are limited for either one (just one loadout for Gravis).
Primaris Lieutenants: Outstanding: These are excellent buff characters, giving rerolls to wound within 6" (albeit only Wound rolls of 1). Very solid for the points, and pairs very well with Azrael. Can even take two of them in one HQ slot, which could come in handy if detachments are limited.
Chaplain: Solid: This guy is a melee force multiplier, but lacks significant punch on his own. Usually it's better to take a character who can buff both shooting and melee combat, but paired with some units, like Assault or even Reiver squads, this guy can do some work. Can take a jump pack, bike, or Terminator armor for maximum versatility.
Primaris Chaplain: Solid: This character is to the regular Chaplain what the Primaris CM is to the regular one. Basically a "stretch" version with an extra wound and attack. This is a common theme with Primaris equivalents of other units, especially characters.
Librarian: Solid: The only thing keeping standard Librarians from being rated better to me is the fact that they are stuck with the mediocre Interromancy discipline. Hopefully when Dark Angels get a codex they improve Interromancy. Still, for psychic defense you can't go wrong with one of these guys. Has same mobility options as Chaplain.
Primaris Librarian: Solid: Higher cost and same benefits for being Primaris compared to the Company Master and Chaplain. Unfortunately you are stuck with the Force Sword instead of having an option for something else, but the Sword is at least decent.
Interrogator-Chaplain: Solid: For more points, you get an improved Chaplain, but he's really not worth it currently. The Morale debuff is situational at best, and the improved statline is probably not worth the extra points on a character that is ultimately still taken more for the reroll ability than anything else.
Techmarine: Underwhelming: Really only useful to repair vehicles, so can do work in some lists but usually there are better things to spend points on. At least he can take a bike for the added mobility.
Land Raider Excelsior: Underwhelming: Basically a Land Raider with a Company Master's buff aura and an invulnerable save, the Excelsior could be a useful unit to take if it weren't so expensive. It has pretty good firepower, but it will ultimately be a big target in competitive games and won't last long. It's just too expensive for what it does.
Rhino Primaris: Underwhelming: Basically a Rhino that gets a one-off orbital bombardment and can buff the shooting of a nearby LR Excelsior. It also has a neat little Servo Skull Hub ability that gives you different little buffs for different situations. Really too expensive for how fragile it is.
TROOPS:
Tactical Squad: Solid: Tacticals are a "jack of all trades but master of none" unit that can make a decent filler for a list. They can be used to camp backfield objectives in cover or perhaps move up and grab midfield objectives if they have a transport. I'd rate them higher, but they are outshone by more specialized units.
Scout Squad: Competitive: The reason I rate them better than Tacticals is the fact that they do the "cheap filler" or "bubble wrap" roles for less points, plus they can be outfitted to kill characters (Sniper Rifles).
Intercessor Squad: Competitive: Intercessors are like more durable, longer-ranged Tactical marines. They can camp objectives well but will struggle to hurt larger opponents as they can't take special or heavy weapons. One thing some players forget is that they are actually decent in melee combat as well.
ELITES:
Apothecary: Solid: A good choice if running multi-wound characters that get in combat a lot, or for healing a Librarian that just got hit with Perils of the Warp. The revive ability is hit-and-miss, and leaves your apothecary stuck for the turn if he fails, so I wouldn't bank on it. It's nice when it works, though!
Primaris Apothecary: Competitive: This model is not a straight upgrade from the non-Primaris version, as he gets a couple of funky new pistols that make him a marked improvement over the standard Apothecary. The Narthecium ability is the same, though. Well worth the extra points over the non-Primaris version.
Company Ancient: Competitive: Giving a dying Devastator, Hellblaster, or Aggressor an extra shooting attack before removing the model can be clutch. Well worth including one of these guys if you run a lot of these units.
Primaris Ancient: Competitive: Same abilities as the standard Ancient, but more durable and has the Bolt Rifle like an Intercessor. Can be worth the extra points over the non-Primaris version if you have them to spare.
Company Champion: Underwhelming: Much better than the vanilla Champion thanks to getting a Blade of Caliban, but still not that great for its points. Can be a nasty surprise for a charging enemy character, though!
Imperial Space Marine: Underwhelming: I want to like him, but there are a lot better ways to spend the points. His gun is cool and can let the guy punch above his weight, but usually it's hard to get him into range to make it count. Fun for casual games, but not good for competitive play.
Company Veterans: Solid: These guys are good for bringing a large number of special weapons and even a single heavy weapon to bear, but are expensive when loaded for bear. They can be taken in units as small as 2 models, meaning they can be used to fill out a transport's capacity together with a character and another squad.
Aggressor Squad: Solid: They have great firepower up close, but getting them close enough is a problem, especially if you want to use their double shot ability (they will be a priority target for most competent opponents). At least they are tough and can soak some fire before dying. An Ancient could be hilarious next to a large squad of these guys!
Reiver Squad: Solid: These are what Assault Marines want to be. Being Primaris, these guys actually have enough attacks in melee to make a dent in an enemy unit, and their overwatch-nullifying grenades can help them safely reach combat.
Dreadnought: Competitive: A very versatile gun platform that can also do close combat if kitted for it, these are a mainstay in many Dark Angels list and do well if within Azrael's auras. The fact that Dreads do not degrade when damaged is key to their success compared to Predators and other vehicles.
Venerable Dreadnought: Outstanding: Even better than the standard Dread, these guys almost never miss with their guns if they can get near Azrael or a Company Master. The Venerable 6+++ save can really come in handy if you are lucky enough to roll some 6's, keeping this monster shooting for longer.
Redemptor Dreadnought: Competitive: Like other Dreads, the Primaris Dread is a great fire support platform and can be even better in CC than its smaller cousins. The weakness is that the unit does degrade with damage. It's also expensive, but the firepower definitely makes up for that.
Servitors: Useless: Probably the crappiest unit in the Dark Angels lineup, if not all of 40k. Too fragile to survive shooting, too low Ballistic Skill to get much out of their own ranged weapon options, and not enough attacks and too low Weapon Skill to do anything in melee. No, just no.
Deathwing Terminator Squad: Competitive: Terminators are actually good in 8th edition! They can take a fair amount of punishment before succumbing, and they can even be accompanied by a Watcher in the Dark to protect them from psychic attacks, something that is an Achilles' heel to Termies.
Deathwing Knights: Competitive: These are what regular Marines' Assault Terminators want to be. For less points than a TH/SS squad, they actually hit harder. They do need a delivery system other than deep striking (like a Land Raider), as otherwise they can easily fail their charge and get kited all game long.
Deathwing Apothecary: Solid: While the ability to heal things or revive models is nice, it's usually not worth paying the premium for Terminator armor on an Apothecary. That said, there are far worse choices and putting one of these with a squad of Deathwing Knights is not a terrible idea.
Deathwing Ancient: Competitive: This guy is a great force multiplier for Deathwing, in particular Deathwing Knights, and combines well with Asmodai for +2 attacks for all Deathwing within 6" of both characters. If he runs with Knights, he needs to ride in a Land Raider with them or risk being left behind if they make their charge.
Deathwing Champion: Solid: Better than the standard Champion, especially if facing a horde of enemies (like a charge from a huge blob of Ork Boyz). Can benefit from the DW Ancient for even more hilarity.
Ravenwing Apothecary: Competitive: This is my go-to Apothecary; expensive, but very mobile and packing a pretty nice weapon (Plasma Talon). The mobility lets him get where he's needed far more easily than a footslogging Apothecary.
Ravenwing Ancient: Solid: Same aura as the DW Ancient, but for Ravenwing. Really only useful with Ravenwing Black Knights, as regular Ravenwing don't want to be in melee combat. What's hilarious is that Sammael benefits from this guy for +1 Attack with the Raven Sword!
Ravenwing Champion: Underwhelming: Very mobile, but expensive and will have a tough time earning his points back in most situations. The mobility doesn't help if he is doing what he's good at (close combat).
FAST ATTACK:
Assault Squad: Underwhelming: For being a CC-oriented unit, they really aren't good at CC at all. Taking a pair of Flamers makes a decent charge deterrent, but in that case most opponents will just shoot them, which isn't difficult to do.
Inceptor Squad: Useless: I want to like these, I really do, but they cost way too much for what they do. They can murderize weaker units like Orks and Tyranid Gaunts, but MEQ will laugh at them for the most part. They got better with the price drop from 75 to 60 points per model, but really they are still just too expensive to really consider.
Ravenwing Bike Squad: Underwhelming: Too expensive when given special weapons, which they need if they want to actually do anything. At least they are mobile enough to get where they're going quickly, and they do make great objective grabbers in a Maelstrom game.
Ravenwing Attack Bike Squad: Useless: Attack Bikes got nerfed into the ground in 8th edition. Their heavy weapon will miss way too often for what they cost, and with a unit like this you don't generally want to sit still as you are paying points for the mobility.
Ravenwing Black Knights: Solid: The best Ravenwing bike unit, but still too expensive in most situations. At least they can do work in both shooting and melee, especially with a buff character or two. The fact that Plasma Talons are Assault weapons should not be overlooked.
Ravenwing Land Speeders: Useless: One of the most disappointing units Dark Angels have. For the same cost as a Typhoon speeder (TML and Heavy Bolter), you can get a Dreadnought with Twin Lascannon and Missiles, and the Dread will last way longer if it's shot at. Case closed.
Land Speeder Vengeance: Solid: Ironically, these are now way better than a standard Land Speeder for the points. They are actually cheaper than the Typhoon and more durable, and have roughly the same firepower. Use the Overcharge profile at your own risk and only if sitting still.
Ravenwing Darkshroud: Outstanding: The aura from this thing will significantly increase the lifespan of nearby units, at least until the opponent focuses down the Darkshroud itself (which means less guns firing at your other stuff). Well worth the points.
HEAVY SUPPORT:
Devastator Squad: Competitive: A great source of heavy firepower, particularly with Lascannons or Missiles. They make a great candidate to sit in ruins within the aura abilities of a character and put shots downrange.
Hellblaster Squad: Competitive: Very durable, and can put out a surprising amount of firepower if they overcharge the plasma weapons. Of course, this will necessitate a reroll aura character like a Company Master, but you would probably want one of those anyway, right?
Land Raider: Solid: Not great as a transport for Terminators as you can't put a character with them, but it does have good firepower and ridiculous durability.
Land Raider Crusader: Solid: Probably the best of the Land Raiders, the generous capacity allows it to carry some DW Knights along with an Ancient and a Chaplain or Belial, keeping them safe until you are close enough to reliably charge them all into combat. Plus its weapons will turn hordes into fine red mist.
Land Raider Redeemer: Underwhelming: The short range of the flamestorm cannons is this LR variant's undoing, as most enemies will just charge a nearby unit and then pile in/consolidate into contact with the vehicle to avoid its deadly overwatch. Take a Crusader instead for less points and more utility.
Predator: Solid: Much better than they were in 7th edition, but still not as good as a Razorback or Dreadnought for the points (you can almost take 2 Razorbacks for the cost of a single Predator). Not a terrible choice, though.
Whirlwind: Underwhelming: Too expensive for what it does, although it can disrupt horde armies pretty well. Generally there are better, cheaper anti-horde options.
Vindicator: Underwhelming: Good firepower, but very swingy in damage output. Also too expensive, although it is tough.
FLYER:
Nephilim Jetfighter: Solid: Can do anti-tank with its twin Lascannon option, or anti-hordes with its Avenger Mega Bolter. Definitely the best incarnation of the model's rules to date in this edition, although the Dark Talon is generally better.
Ravenwing Dark Talon: Competitive: The change to the flyer rules killed the lists that spammed these, but they are still one of the best horde control options Dark Angels have.
DEDICATED TRANSPORT:
Rhino: Solid: The basic metal bawks is a solid choice if all you need is a way to move a squad in relative safety from point A to point B. Can even take two five-man squads in a pinch. If you only need to move one squad, take a Razorback instead.
Razorback: Outstanding: One of the most points-efficient units in the Dark Angels army, this thing can do just about anything. Probably best with a Twin Assault Cannon for anti-horde work.
Drop Pod: Useless: I'm still struggling to find a use, even a niche one, for these. They are just too expensive, and the restrictions on where they can drop severely limits their utility compared to past editions.
Repulsor: Solid: Probably better than a Land Raider for the points, and has the added bonus of being able to fly out of combat (meaning it can't lose its shooting to a single Ork tagging a fender). If you need to get a Primaris squad into position downfield, this is the only option as Primaris squads can't ride other transports.

Like I said above, these ratings are based on my personal experiences with these units, and my speculations concerning units I have yet to try out. Feel free to discuss; I'd be very interested in hearing the feedback of others on our various units. Hopefully when DA finally get a proper codex they can fix the useless units and make them at least playable.

Zerg,

I think you have some excellent analysis there.

One area where I am still undecided is the Ravenwing units. I have found the Bike Squadrons to be alternate between being rock-stars one game and being very ho-hum the next. They have been eating hordes, but get bullied by folks with heavy weapons. I think they could do with a point drop and perhaps a more useable Jink. The Ravenwing Attack Bikes have done some good work for me, either as a unit on their own or augmenting a Bike Squadron. Paying the movement penalty for the heavy weapons is, though, not a great idea for game play. The Black Knights have shone against power-armour foes, but have been swamped by hordes. I've been using all these guys in fluffy Ravenwing Detachments, and I am not sure they really have a place as support for foot-slogging Dark Angel armies when there are better options.

The Ravenwing Landspeeders certainly need some changing. Having said that, they've done great in two games. A Squadron of three puts out mobile dakka and the Fly keyword has some nice aspects: the look on my Ork opponent's face when the Landspeeders fell back from combat and then blasted the Orks with firepower was great. Still, even a broken clock is right two times a day and I would not recommend them to anybody to use. A squadron of two costs more than a Dark Talon, however, and the Dark Talon does everything better.

My problem with Ravenwing is purely based on their cost. The extra wound is nice, but when they cost as much as Terminators when they take special weapons and aren't nearly as durable. Of course, I think some of the special weapons are overcosted, especially Meltaguns. Maybe I just need to try a proper mobile army list with them; take a bunch of Ravenwing bikes and some Greenwing squads in transports and see how that does. Maybe then I'll feel better about Ravenwing. Of course we're likely to get a price drop on regular bike squads at least since vanilla marines did. That will help a lot.

Sorry for not finding the right place but, with dreads kitted with dual ranged wèapons, do they get s6 0ap attacks?

I think that's right. They give up any decent CC ability when they take two weapons, which is usually okay as they want to be shooting rather than punching anyways.

Really interested in seeing what the codex brings to Ravenwing as they are definitely not in a great place right now. The range on melta means you have to gang up with many meltas to get a result, but I think a nephilim does the job better at range. Not sure if I'm going to add the AB to a regular melta sqd to increase melta options and add wounds.
I do like plasma bikes as they have the range to keep away until they need to get within 12" to unload with everything. Combi-plas is pretty reasonable too.

The maneuverability is something I have to use better. It's the only reason to take them over regular troopers, so need to isolate enemy units with massed Ravenwing. Bubble wrap is a serious issue though and I'm thinking that I may need to drop the pure Ravenwing thought and add some scouts to the mix.

Asmodai is competitive af. For Deathwing Knights, he provides the same bonuses as both Belial and Deathwing Ancient.

I agree with the rest of those unit evaluations and I'll update the op soonish.

Ravenwing will get a lot better with reduced price in future codex.

 axisofentropy wrote:
Asmodai is competitive af. For Deathwing Knights, he provides the same bonuses as both Belial and Deathwing Ancient.

Yes and no. His auras are very good, he himself, as a stand alone character is not very good at all, and I think that's what he was saying. Here is my thing, to run a LR, asmodai, and a 5 man squad of Knights, since Asmodai can't DS in with them, your looking at around 750+ points for those 7 models. I just don't think the cost justifies what your getting and how much damage they can do.

Asmodai is decent but I can't ever justify taking him. I think there are always better options. Really, competitively speaking, the only buff's we need to really worry about are Azrael/Lieutenant Primaris/Dark Shroud. I actually play without the Dark Shroud and do pretty well to be honest but if I had one or could find one I'd likely pick it up.

Outside of those you shouldn't need the rerolls in combat or the +1 attack. I'd rather bring a psyker or assassin for general utility. AND/OR I usually try and bring Ezekiel to be honest. He always does so much for me. Granted I do play alot of Chaos and Eldar so having psyker defense is important.

I have found Belial's and Sammael's re-rolls to be decisive. Even with humble Storm Bolters the re-roll can tip the balance, especially when you semd him in with two squads and set it up right. Makes opponents good and salty.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I have found Belial's and Sammael's re-rolls to be decisive. Even with humble Storm Bolters the re-roll can tip the balance, especially when you semd him in with two squads and set it up right. Makes opponents good and salty.

Yeah, I usually send Belial in with 3 squads of deathwing terms, 2 assault cannons, 1 cyclone, rest storm bolters and they can usually easily wipe a squad and a half of marines off DS. Then hopefully, your sitting on their flank and can just walk across their lines while the rest of your army pushes in from the front.

I do think if you waiver towards DW or RW then the named characters are a must for the same reason -- they have the appropriate delivery systems to make their buffs work. Bikes just seem so expensive right now for what they do, same with terminators. Though, hopefully the new bike will bring a little bit of a reduction.

bobafett012 wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I have found Belial's and Sammael's re-rolls to be decisive. Even with humble Storm Bolters the re-roll can tip the balance, especially when you semd him in with two squads and set it up right. Makes opponents good and salty.

Yeah, I usually send Belial in with 3 squads of deathwing terms, 2 assault cannons, 1 cyclone, rest storm bolters and they can usually easily wipe a squad and a half of marines off DS. Then hopefully, your sitting on their flank and can just walk across their lines while the rest of your army pushes in from the front.

Itruly enjoy dropping 3x5 terminators in with Belial. 12 storm bolters and 3 assault cannons rerolling misses puts down the hurt on any target of medium durability or worse. Crowd control is not Deathwing's strength, but that's a nice way to clear a landing zone, especially with everyone running Conscripts and Cultists and Gaunts like they're going out of style. Like you said, that should be a sufficient force to anchor the flank while, in my case, a LR/Spartan with some DWK and characters rolls up to beat some face.

Switching gears a little, has anyone given a pure Dreadnought Azrael-star a try? I just dramatically increased my dreadnought supply, including a couple twin-las Mortis dudes, so I may give it a go. It seems like tossing in a couple las/CCW Dreads would be sufficient for melee control. Hordes would be a big problem, as would objective claiming. Maybe have some DWT for minor crowd control? Seems like a silly plan, but it might work!

The core of my current list is two venerable dreads with lascannon/fist/flamer and a pred annihilator, teamed up with Azrael and a primaris lieutenant for shooting efficiency. I usually rock two razorbacks as well for dakka and objective snagging. It is the part of the list I'm not sure I will change this edition. It has yet to let me down. The only other piece I'd really consider adding to this is a Dark Shroud if I could find one somewhere. That bubble would be uber efficient.

What I like about the balanced approach over the spammy versions is you get diversity and the ability to adapt. The dreads actually provide alot of deterrent from alpha strike lists that a backfield of preds would not and the predator adds that extra bit of punch you need to take the big targets down when the two dreads just can't cut it. I also usually put a dev squad in with a couple lascannons as well in there because my meta has alot of big targets more so than horde style armies. The razorbacks are generally kitted with twin assault cannons for the dakka but they can be used to punch through a few wounds on bigger targets if I need.

One thing I've found is being multi-purposed this edition isn't nearly as bad as it was last. It actually is super helpful a majority of the time. One game my chaos opponent had alot of my shooting and units tied up after deepstriking and combo charging etc. I had one freed up venerable dread who proceeded to take down a hellbrute in a combination of my shooting and combat, then got charged by a demon prince and chaos lord and proceeded to take both out as well. Hitting on 2's and wounding on 3's is a beautiful thing! The 4++ from AZZY is a main reason for this but it makes them fierce.

I've found that two TwinLas Razorbacks are usually better than one Predator Annihilator in most situations. The Predator isn't bad, mind you, but the Razorbacks combined have a lot more wounds and can split up to cover more objectives if needed.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I've found that two TwinLas Razorbacks are usually better than one Predator Annihilator in most situations. The Predator isn't bad, mind you, but the Razorbacks combined have a lot more wounds and can split up to cover more objectives if needed.

Yes, Predators are terribly overcosted when Razorbacks are an option. Codex will likely grant Preds both a price drop and a very good strategem.

That's a fair point. I like it. I don't like that I now feel like I need more razorbacks lol

Widied wrote:
That's a fair point. I like it. I don't like that I now feel like I need more razorbacks lol

Razorbacks are one unit that was big in 7th (thanks to the Battle Company build) that works really well in 8th. I'm glad I happen to have a few sitting around, although these days I wish I had more with Assault Cannons.

I got one with my dark angels force and converted it to assault cannon right away. I'd really like one more! I want to roll with two. The one I have is great for last minute objective grabs. Dreadnoughts and Razorbacks are really solid choices this edition. I particularly like venerables; the 4++ and the ignore on 6's makes them realllly good. They are costly but almost always are worth it. They fill alot of rolls.

I still enjoy my predator; like you said it will never be bad. It attracts alot of attention and with Azzy's buff's can usually weather the storm. But one more razorback would be ideal for me. Their dakka is great.

So I need some help guys. My local store is kicking off an escalation league. It starts at 500 points but I can't seem to come up with a list that is worth anything. I was hoping y'all might have some ideas. I don't want to play ravenwing because I'm not really a fan of bikes this edition and DW is a no go so it will have to be greenwing. Other catch is you have to have an IC at the start but no named ones at first. The IC must be in all your armies throughout the league and they have a power up scheme so he can get better which I thought was pretty cool. Because of that, I think my HQ is going to be a librarian which can get stats change to add +1 cast and Deny the witch later (basically becoming Ezekiel minus the pistol and sword). But after the HQ choice I have no idea what else I can put in there for 500 points.

 ILegion wrote:
So I need some help guys. My local store is kicking off an escalation league. It starts at 500 points but I can't seem to come up with a list that is worth anything. I was hoping y'all might have some ideas. I don't want to play ravenwing because I'm not really a fan of bikes this edition and DW is a no go so it will have to be greenwing. Other catch is you have to have an IC at the start but no named ones at first. The IC must be in all your armies throughout the league and they have a power up scheme so he can get better which I thought was pretty cool. Because of that, I think my HQ is going to be a librarian which can get stats change to add +1 cast and Deny the witch later (basically becoming Ezekiel minus the pistol and sword). But after the HQ choice I have no idea what else I can put in there for 500 points.

Could go Primaris, take a Primaris Librarian, a couple of Intercessor Squads, and maybe some Hellblasters for heavy support. Alternatively, with non-Primaris take a couple of 5-man Tactical Squads in a Rhino, put your Librarian on a Bike, and take a Dreadnought or some Devastators for some heavy firepower.

I agree with Zerg. I'd probably lean towards the the primaris stuff until you get to around 1250 then maybe start thinking about using Azrael. Definitely use a venerable dread if you can fit it.

Thanks guys! So, for 500 points I have:

Libby on Bike w/force sword

2 x 5 man tacs

Dev squad 2xLC/2x ML

Rhino

I decided to go LC/ML on the dev squad because I know I'm going to see some green tides and nid hordes. I've realized at 500 points the DA feel kind of bland.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And none of my primaris stuff is put together yet : / or I'd probably go with them.

Hey guys! I need your help against my friends 1500point Grey Knights army. Any ideas of what to be careful, since i dont know much about them despite their smite spam.

Make sure you have a good screen for your gunline if that's what you're using. Lots of deep strike.

Noneisbackhere wrote:
Hey guys! I need your help against my friends 1500point Grey Knights army. Any ideas of what to be careful, since i dont know much about them despite their smite spam.

terminators are afraid of mortal wounds (smite) and weapons that do 2 damage with some AP like autocannons, overcharged plasma, grav guns, etc. Use scouts or conscripts to keep deep strikers away and then shoot them.

I would bring a Cullexus Assassin and Ezekiel (or a standard Libby). It is the psyker defense I bring quite often and it's really efficient. And like someone else said make sure you bring enough units to make a screen so that you can force deepstrikers to appear in front of your whole army.

 axisofentropy wrote:

Noneisbackhere wrote:
Hey guys! I need your help against my friends 1500point Grey Knights army. Any ideas of what to be careful, since i dont know much about them despite their smite spam.

terminators are afraid of mortal wounds (smite) and weapons that do 2 damage with some AP like autocannons, overcharged plasma, grav guns, etc. Use scouts or conscripts to keep deep strikers away and then shoot them.

Definitely scouts at minimum but like axis said, conscripts to and they may work better, especially with a commissar in their for morale checks. If I know my opponent has a lot of deep striking stuff I usually deploy my gunline, then razorbacks 5-9" away from them then use the scouts ability to deploy them about 8" away from the razorbacks. Don't forget that they can still use gate of infinity to later in game.

Thanks for the tips guys!!
First let me say that i decided to go with:
Battalion+vanguard:
1xAzrael
1xPrimaris Lieutenent
1xBelial
2x 5intercessors- Stalker bolt rifles
1x 5tactical-plasma can
2x5 Reivers combat knifes
1x5 DW knights
2x Venerable Dreadnoughts twin las/CW/flamers

We rolled Cleanse and Capture and deployed in a bit of a bubble Azrael+PL+x2Venerable+1x5Intercessors.With some luck i seized so my 2xVenerables did some dmg on the Stormraven and my Reivers screened the whole bubble.Eventually i was a bit lucky with the Objectives and my Azrael bubble did awesome. I'm really impressed by the Reivers. Their close combat-2wounds are really brutal. Azrael was once more an outstanding presence with the Venerables killing the whole squad of Paladins +Apothecary. The only big threats Dreadknight was downed by my Reivers+Belial/Knights and Voldus bombed himself with Perils

Glad to hear it worked out. I've been wondering how the reivers were. That was a bit of luck with voldus haha.

Noneisbackhere wrote:
Thanks for the tips guys!!
First let me say that i decided to go with:
Battalion+vanguard:
1xAzrael
1xPrimaris Lieutenent
1xBelial
2x 5intercessors- Stalker bolt rifles
1x 5tactical-plasma can
2x5 Reivers combat knifes
1x5 DW knights
2x Venerable Dreadnoughts twin las/CW/flamers

We rolled Cleanse and Capture and deployed in a bit of a bubble Azrael+PL+x2Venerable+1x5Intercessors.With some luck i seized so my 2xVenerables did some dmg on the Stormraven and my Reivers screened the whole bubble.Eventually i was a bit lucky with the Objectives and my Azrael bubble did awesome. I'm really impressed by the Reivers. Their close combat-2wounds are really brutal. Azrael was once more an outstanding presence with the Venerables killing the whole squad of Paladins +Apothecary. The only big threats Dreadknight was downed by my Reivers+Belial/Knights and Voldus bombed himself with Perils

Interesting list for sure. Why the Stalker rifles on the Intercessors? Reading the profiles for the weapons, I'd usually go with regular Bolt Rifles every time myself. Good to hear that Reivers are good; I have yet to try mine out. The models are cool, at least. Do you feel that DW Knights really helped you in this game, or do you think you might have done just as well or even better with regular DW termies? My instinct always says never to deepstrike Knights as they will fail their charge more often than not even with a command reroll.

I have been bringing a unit of even regular terminators to most games recently and they consistently under perform sadly. I'm pretty sure I'm removing them in favor of another razorback and some sort of marines to go in it. Better overall mobility and shooting. I have some knights I've been sitting on playing. They seem so limited in ability. Sure, they shred in combat... which is one phase of the game... so I can never be convinced to bring them. Though maybe I will give them a shot next league night.

Hey guys,

A few questions regarding some model options I'm thinking of if you can advise.
Basically I've come across some marine bodies I'd had laying around, so pulled out my DA bits box to make use of these.
I've got 5 legs and bodies to work with.
I have a Multi Melta and Missile Launcher, which I think will be two (already have 2PlasGun, 2PlasCan, 2Las, 2HB).

Then I've got these three others, that I could make up some alternate Company Masters or something for variance (just have one with Power Sword and Bolter).
How is everyone running their CM's?
I've got Mauls, Swords, Shield, Plasma pistols etc to build from.

Also, does anyone use a company master with jump pack? And if so, what would you equip him with?

Final question, Deathwing unit of five, power sword with 4 fists, and assault Cannon with 4 storm bolters.
Does anyone use that setup?

Thanks for any help you can give!

Danny76 wrote:
Hey guys,

A few questions regarding some model options I'm thinking of if you can advise.
Basically I've come across some marine bodies I'd had laying around, so pulled out my DA bits box to make use of these.
I've got 5 legs and bodies to work with.
I have a Multi Melta and Missile Launcher, which I think will be two (already have 2PlasGun, 2PlasCan, 2Las, 2HB).

Then I've got these three others, that I could make up some alternate Company Masters or something for variance (just have one with Power Sword and Bolter).
How is everyone running their CM's?
I've got Mauls, Swords, Shield, Plasma pistols etc to build from.

Also, does anyone use a company master with jump pack? And if so, what would you equip him with?

Final question, Deathwing unit of five, power sword with 4 fists, and assault Cannon with 4 storm bolters.
Does anyone use that setup?

Thanks for any help you can give!

I think a Power Fist could do some work on a CM. The -1 to hit is somewhat offset by the fact that a CM's Weapon Skill is 2+ and he rerolls 1's. Take that and a combi-weapon (probably Plasma) and go crazy! Also, I wish I had one with a Jump Pack, so I say go for it if you want one like that. He can drop in wherever and whenever he's needed rather than having to deploy with the rest of the army. Could give you some tactical flexibility on where you need the ability to reroll 1's.

On the Deathwing, I use that setup almost exclusively. It works well while not being too expensive (for termies anyways). I sometimes swap in a Chainfist on one guy, but I don't think that's necessary. Especially whenever they update the points for DA fists, which will make the Chainfist obsolete since it costs 10 points more than a regular Power Fist in Codex: Space Marines (which is what DA will be when they update it).

Ravenwing punch....what do you do? Typhoon, nephilim, attack bikes or just melta bikers?
Hard to justify the typhoon when I can get a twin Las/ML dread for same points. Really thinking of making a RW shooty dread, just to give my list some punch.

Ravenwing are in a bad spot right now. They are super expensive for what they bring; whenever we get our actual codex it should fix that issue somewhat. Right now the best Ravenwing units are probably the Darkshroud, the flyers (especially the Dark Talon), the LS Vengeance, and possibly Black Knights. Melta bikes are not necessarily a bad choice either. I'm starting to regret putting Grav on my bikes, but it was actually good in 7th. I can easily replace the guns, I suppose, since most of my bikes aren't painted yet.

I'm playing my Ravenwing as Raven Guard for the huge price drop. 27 points is pretty good for the statline and double bolter and chainsword.

And I'm trying a captain or maybe chapter master with jump pack and relic blade.

Don't really want to play them as some thing else, just would like to see them have more punch than they do. A RW dread might be decent although not exactly fitting the fast strike status of the bikers. They definitely need a boost in the new codex though.

I don't think ravenwing is "bad" right now.
Sure, they've gotten worse. But they still deliver a mean punch.

In my last match I had a balanced army of greenwing, deathwing and ravenwing. (2 Razorbacks + Tacs, some Deathwing Knights and a unit of Black Knights with Apothecary, Darkshroud and Sammy on Corvex.

Darkshroud + Apothecary makes the unit very tanky.
The plasma talons still hurt badly, and Sammy is just a beast.
What hurt most was the nerf to the blacknights melee capability, but Sammy made up for that.
S x2 + reroll everything is just sick. He single handedly shredded a deamon prince in melee, the black knights just helped getting rid of a few hitpoints.

They might not be competitive in a tournament point of view, but they are not "bad".


###############

Why is the Dark Talon so good?
I dont see why the Nephelim isn't better. (Twin HB + Avenger Mega Bolter = 16 Shots with greater Strength, + 2 Missiles vs 12-24 Bolter shots + rift canon)

Aeri wrote:

They might not be competitive in a tournament point of view, but they are not "bad".

in this context, that's exactly what "bad" means.

You also described a mixed DA army which completely mitigates some of the inherent weaknesses. Razorback with twin Las? Cool.
I'm talking pure Ravenwing. Melta is tough to use since you have to get so close to use it and your bikers are too expensive to be expendable (51pts for biker with meltagun).
I have a 1500pt matchup this Saturday vs Nids, so we'll see how they perform. At least I can now add Sammael at this point level.

So does anyone think we'll get a codex released with The Lion coming back?

Seems like a lot of people think he is in the front running to come back with Russ and I wondered if anyone on here may have heard some rumors?

I'm really hoping he does, and before Christmas haha but I think if he does it'll be sometime next year which sucks because I have to deploy to the middle east. I do think GW will deliver there : /

I would like to see the Lion returning, just to have someone oppose Guilleman in the fluff. It really gives DAs an opportunity to be different thematically. Most of all I'm looking for the new strategems that will hopefully make RW and DW more viable.

That's where I'm at to. It could make for an interesting plot line plus I'm curious to see what his buffs would be. He's supposed to be one of the best if not the best military tacticians out of all the primarchs and Dark Angels are supposed to be relentless. Maybe some kind of reserve/deep strike manipulation and not suffer the -1 to hit for heavy weapons? Or getting vengeful strike back?

Does anyone have any hopes/wishes/expectations on what kind of traits The Lion could have if they ever release him?

 ILegion wrote:
That's where I'm at to. It could make for an interesting plot line plus I'm curious to see what his buffs would be. He's supposed to be one of the best if not the best military tacticians out of all the primarchs and Dark Angels are supposed to be relentless. Maybe some kind of reserve/deep strike manipulation and not suffer the -1 to hit for heavy weapons? Or getting vengeful strike back?

Does anyone have any hopes/wishes/expectations on what kind of traits The Lion could have if they ever release him?

Well this is a tactics thread rather than a wishlisting thread, but I would kind of hope the Lion would get some of the same buffs as Azrael currently gets, and maybe give Azrael a different effect when the codex comes out. Azrael's helm is, after all, the Lion Helm, so maybe Lion should get the 4++ bubble that Azrael currently gets. Giving rerolls to hit and/or to wound is a given, and maybe instead of Guilliman's buff to all Imperial units and his CP recycling, Lion could maybe extend the rapid fire range of nearby weapons kind of like what Death Guard get or something. Or maybe allow plasma near him to not overheat, although I'm not sure what the fluff justification for that would be.

Hi everyone
So i'm trying to come up with a somewhat competitive and a fun list to play by mixing primaris models with DA and some IG, here is what i have so far:

Celestine
Azrael
Belial
5 terminators with assault cannon and powerfists
5 terminators with assault cannon and powerfists
Repulsor with a lascannon and a lastalon, onslaught gatling
darkshroud with heavy bolter
8 hellblasters with plasma incinerators
60 conscripts 3 squads of 20
comissar

List comes around 1850 pts running against girlyman gunline

Idea is to have 2 squads of conscripts sit on objectives in my deployment zone, while the azrael castle slowly advances towards the opponent supported by terminators deepstriking somewhere near opponent's objectives

3rd squad of conscripts is just an additional protection for the repulsor and hellblasters that will disembark on the first or second turn.

Celestine provides a 6+ invul for the conscripts and can be efficient in close combat , as soon as she dies i'm planning to resurrect her close to some objective


Any critique is welcome

Timur wrote:
Hi everyone
So i'm trying to come up with a somewhat competitive and a fun list to play by mixing primaris models with DA and some IG, here is what i have so far:

Celestine
Azrael
Belial
5 terminators with assault cannon and powerfists
5 terminators with assault cannon and powerfists
Repulsor with a lascannon and a lastalon, onslaught gatling
darkshroud with heavy bolter
8 hellblasters with plasma incinerators
60 conscripts 3 squads of 20
comissar

List comes around 1850 pts running against girlyman gunline

Idea is to have 2 squads of conscripts sit on objectives in my deployment zone, while the azrael castle slowly advances towards the opponent supported by terminators deepstriking somewhere near opponent's objectives

3rd squad of conscripts is just an additional protection for the repulsor and hellblasters that will disembark on the first or second turn.

Celestine provides a 6+ invul for the conscripts and can be efficient in close combat , as soon as she dies i'm planning to resurrect her close to some objective


Any critique is welcome

If you take out Celestine, the conscripts and the commissar and replace them with some Scouts you have a great list!

In all seriousness it should work well, and the salty tears of your opponents will be priceless. Azrael makes a great firebase and Belial can cause pure havoc with the Deathwing coming out of the teleportarium (or whatever its called). I find Watchers are points well spent for my Deathwing even if they only work once. They're dead cheap and your Deathwing are vulnerable to Smite Spam without them. A Deathwing Ancient would also be good, but something will have to go.

ps Make sure that Celestine, the conscripts and especially the Commissar have an "accident" after the battle if they seem too nosy.

I was thinking about taking scouts actually, but 5 man bolter scout squad costs 55 points whereas conscripts squad of 20 is 60, i'm thinking they are more efficient at holding objectives if paired with comissar. Sniper scouts dont seem to be very usefull from what i've read, you need to have alot of them to actually make any difference in the game like killing a character

Celestine has so much utility that its hard to drop her from the list, the ability to move,shoot,fight twice a turn or regain health is sick. She can move up to 24+2d6 that could very good for grabbing objectives or tying some squads in CC

Timur wrote:
I was thinking about taking scouts actually, but 5 man bolter scout squad costs 55 points whereas conscripts squad of 20 is 60, i'm thinking they are more efficient at holding objectives if paired with comissar. Sniper scouts dont seem to be very usefull from what i've read, you need to have alot of them to actually make any difference in the game like killing a character

Celestine has so much utility that its hard to drop her from the list, the ability to move,shoot,fight twice a turn or regain health is sick. She can move up to 24+2d6 that could very good for grabbing objectives or tying some squads in CC

I won't argue against Celestine's effectiveness, nor against the resilience of Conscripts with Commissars, but they are not Dark Angels.

A five-man Scout squad with Sniper Rifles may not kill a character in one volley, but they can certainly put the wounds on. In tourney play they softened up a Demon Prince for somebody else to kill, killed a painboy and a weirdboy. They are also my Conscript mitigation unit. Even when they don't kill a character they can influence where the characters go and they also draw fire - which is something!

Cheers

I like sniper scouts with a ML. I use one pretty frequently in lists.

I personally have steered away from Terminators. I cannot seem to make them work for me. They usually come down and put a decent dent in a cheaper unit then themselves (not making points back) then getting shot/charged off the board. But I have never fielded them en mass so there's that but from batreps I've watched not much different seems to occur.
Also in terms of tactical objectives they are far too slow.

Azrael and a Lieutenant Primaris is an amazing duo. If you haven't tried them together. Celestine is definitely a worthy include. I've teetered on wanting to try her in my list. But instead I took a Cullexus, Eversor and Callidus for tactical flexibility. But I've seen lists where they have best of all worlds assassins and Celestine lol.

One strategy I'm going to deploy, which I'm not sure why I haven't already, is to include Company Veterans because of a cool little rule they have where on a 2+ they can take a wound for a character. I'd keep them nice and cheap as an extra five wounds for Azrael.

To really make the Azrael+Lieutenant duo shine, put a Darkshroud near them for a -1 to hit vs. shooting. Your vehicles that are benefitting from Azzy's rerolls and 4++ are now going to have to make fewer of those 4++ saves. As for the sniper scouts, I've never had them do much for me, but then maybe I'm not using them right, or using enough of them. I'm wondering if maybe pairing a unit of those and a Vindicare Assassin could be a good strategy. I've tried it, and I love the Vindicare, but even he doesn't always do so hot.

I really have been thinking hard about getting Celestine into my lists. Aside from being a great model, she's crazy powerful! Not sure if it's worth including her Geminae Superia or not.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
To really make the Azrael+Lieutenant duo shine, put a Darkshroud near them for a -1 to hit vs. shooting. Your vehicles that are benefitting from Azzy's rerolls and 4++ are now going to have to make fewer of those 4++ saves. As for the sniper scouts, I've never had them do much for me, but then maybe I'm not using them right, or using enough of them. I'm wondering if maybe pairing a unit of those and a Vindicare Assassin could be a good strategy. I've tried it, and I love the Vindicare, but even he doesn't always do so hot.

I really have been thinking hard about getting Celestine into my lists. Aside from being a great model, she's crazy powerful! Not sure if it's worth including her Geminae Superia or not.

We have switched to playing tactical objectives in my meta so I find the scouts have been a good way for me to have a unit get to a far away objective, something out of reach for both my opponent and me. Really that's about it in terms of usefulness. Occasionally the ML helps but without the re-rolling (they are usually never close to Azzy) I never fully depend on it. But that out reach has been extremely helpful. But I've recently moved to tacticals and razorbacks as well as three assassins (callidus, cullexus and eversor) for mobility/distraction/outreach, so I've taken the snipers out of my most recent list. These units tend to be more useful. So you could totally be right.

In regards to Celestine, I think to be truly competitive she is kind've an auto-include. I don't have her model, but I've been running Ezekiel (who has been valuable no doubt) but he's near 150 which is the number I need to take Celestine. He is my placeholder as I've been on the fence. I've been trying to run a mostly mono dark angels list. And it's been working real well. But it does seems like the most logical move. Her speed alone and diversity in dmg types flamer awesome melee etc would make her worth it. There is no doubt. In my lists I would only include her but that's because I dont know how I'd fit in her geminae. But I'm not sure you will need them either.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Noneisbackhere wrote:
Thanks for the tips guys!!
First let me say that i decided to go with:
Battalion+vanguard:
1xAzrael
1xPrimaris Lieutenent
1xBelial
2x 5intercessors- Stalker bolt rifles
1x 5tactical-plasma can
2x5 Reivers combat knifes
1x5 DW knights
2x Venerable Dreadnoughts twin las/CW/flamers

We rolled Cleanse and Capture and deployed in a bit of a bubble Azrael+PL+x2Venerable+1x5Intercessors.With some luck i seized so my 2xVenerables did some dmg on the Stormraven and my Reivers screened the whole bubble.Eventually i was a bit lucky with the Objectives and my Azrael bubble did awesome. I'm really impressed by the Reivers. Their close combat-2wounds are really brutal. Azrael was once more an outstanding presence with the Venerables killing the whole squad of Paladins +Apothecary. The only big threats Dreadknight was downed by my Reivers+Belial/Knights and Voldus bombed himself with Perils

Interesting list for sure. Why the Stalker rifles on the Intercessors? Reading the profiles for the weapons, I'd usually go with regular Bolt Rifles every time myself. Good to hear that Reivers are good; I have yet to try mine out. The models are cool, at least. Do you feel that DW Knights really helped you in this game, or do you think you might have done just as well or even better with regular DW termies? My instinct always says never to deepstrike Knights as they will fail their charge more often than not even with a command reroll.

After 3-4 games against Grey Knights i can now tell for sure that Primaris are doing really great cause of their 2 wounds profiles against the GK constant Smite spam. I chose Stalker over normal rifles, first because of the better range but mainly because of the -2 AP. Since i placed them in separate buildings to ensure some objectives and far away of the "Azrael bubble" the bigger range helped a lot. As for the DW, im still not quite sold on either. Not the simple termies, nor the DK seem to have a strong impact on the battle. Yes they will deliver a great amount of dmg if they manage to make that charge, but its only that. Maybe carried on a LR, yet in this lascannon meta even a LR wont hold much.
In general, the DA only competitive strategy i've found to work so far is the Azrael-PL-Darkshroud bubble. In this bubble i've tried VD, Predators, Razorbacks,Primaris Hellblasters and the Reivers as screeners.So far i think the Predators(full LC loadout) work like a charm protecting the Azrael-PL. This with a couple of Dark Talons for objective control is doing really great in every match i've played. Some things i want to try is adding a Cullexus assasin inside the Azrael bubble especially against heavy Psyking armies or a Vindicare Assasin against swarm/low LD armies like Astra militarum.

So here is the list i tried out this weekend:

Azrael
Belial
Celestine
8 Hellblasters
Repulsor Las-talon, twin lascanon
2x Terminators with assault cannon
Darkshroud

4 squads of elysian snipers
2 squads of elysian heavy weapons
1 elysian commander

First, the elysian snipers, at 21 points we get a 3 man squad with 2 wounds per model, ballistic skill 3 and the same sniper rifle. i find them the most efficient snipers due to their cost, and the fact that there are 4 squads of them opponents have a harder time with splitting their fire.

Elysian heavy weapons paired with commander can be dropped turn one or two anywhere within 2 and commander can give both squads an order to ignore the -1 to hit penalty for moving with heavy wepaons, so they willl be firing at BS4+.

As to how the game went, i was facing RobbyG with
2 razorbacks
1 las predator with chronus
2 dev squads
2 captains
1 librarian
squad of bikes with shields
squad of jump pack veterans
cullexus assasin
maybe missed something

So i fielded snipers on objectives and the hellblasters in repulsor behind a ruin so it doesn't get wrecked on turn one.
Then i got lucky and seized the initiative, since my opponent didn't hide his predator well enough it went down turn one with my repulsor firing all his guns at it.

Snipers managed to put two wounds on the librarian. Terminators nearly wiped out the bikes and got a successfull charge on them. Basically first turn totally wrecked the gunline, the game wasn't much of interest after that. I noticed that celestine can be very helpful for protecting the weak snipers in the backline, she managed to tie up in melee two captains and a squad of veterans for two turns, then i revived her near them to finish the job, i think shes definitely worth the points.

Another interesting thing, elysian heavy weapons squad are dirt cheap and so as the snipers, so it's not big deal to lose them, but they do pose a threat so opponents will have to focus them down, i think their main purpose is distraction.

Hellblasters are amazing i have to say, in rapid-fire range they cracked a razorback in one volley, and i dont think assault version is better due to its lower strength, but maybe mixing them is a good idea to have more firepower and still be able to bring down vehicles with toughness 8 reliably.

In our meta there is no smite spam armies and i'm not worried about one or two librarians, thats why no anti psykers in my list currently.

It's a shame this thread doesn't have much discussion, hopefully the Codex breathes some new life/interest into the DA.

For the Lion, I truly believe he's the next Primarch back, and will be released along with the codex. It just makes too much sense, seeing as how there is no word of the DA codex coming anytime soon and Mortarion was just released.

For abilities, the Lion was always known as the best duelist among the Primarchs, so something based around combat would be very appropriate. What does everyone think the Lion Sword would do? Is allowing El'Jonson to always strike first in the first round of combat too powerful?

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
It's a shame this thread doesn't have much discussion, hopefully the Codex breathes some new life/interest into the DA.

For the Lion, I truly believe he's the next Primarch back, and will be released along with the codex. It just makes too much sense, seeing as how there is no word of the DA codex coming anytime soon and Mortarion was just released.

For abilities, the Lion was always known as the best duelist among the Primarchs, so something based around combat would be very appropriate. What does everyone think the Lion Sword would do? Is allowing El'Jonson to always strike first in the first round of combat too powerful?

I think it's likely that he will be the next primarch, since he is not lost somewhere in the eye of terror, but as i understand he is supposed to return when things get really ugly. So i think we'll have to wait until some big event happens before getting our hopes up

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
It's a shame this thread doesn't have much discussion, hopefully the Codex breathes some new life/interest into the DA.

For the Lion, I truly believe he's the next Primarch back, and will be released along with the codex. It just makes too much sense, seeing as how there is no word of the DA codex coming anytime soon and Mortarion was just released.

For abilities, the Lion was always known as the best duelist among the Primarchs, so something based around combat would be very appropriate. What does everyone think the Lion Sword would do? Is allowing El'Jonson to always strike first in the first round of combat too powerful?

Yeah, with everyone getting new toys and rules, our index is getting a bit stale right now. Although the DA usually get screwed over every edition, so i won't hold my breath.

As for the Lion, i'm sure he'll be coming with the codex, but as far as him being a great duelist, i've never read about him being a great duelist in comparison to his brothers. I can think of quite a few others that are much better known as sword fighters/melee combatants, Sanguinius, Fulgrim, and Angron just to name a few. Not saying he's bad in melee, but I wouldn't rank him up there with the best of them. I see the lion as a much more tactical thinking Primarch, more like Guilliman to be honest. Bad part about that is, Guilliman's abilities are so good, i'm not sure what i'd be happy with on Lion El Johnson for aura abilities. I would prefer something that benefits the army, and not rules that just make him good in CC such as always striking first, but that's just my opinion.

bobafett012 wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
It's a shame this thread doesn't have much discussion, hopefully the Codex breathes some new life/interest into the DA.

For the Lion, I truly believe he's the next Primarch back, and will be released along with the codex. It just makes too much sense, seeing as how there is no word of the DA codex coming anytime soon and Mortarion was just released.

For abilities, the Lion was always known as the best duelist among the Primarchs, so something based around combat would be very appropriate. What does everyone think the Lion Sword would do? Is allowing El'Jonson to always strike first in the first round of combat too powerful?

Yeah, with everyone getting new toys and rules, our index is getting a bit stale right now. Although the DA usually get screwed over every edition, so i won't hold my breath.

As for the Lion, i'm sure he'll be coming with the codex, but as far as him being a great duelist, i've never read about him being a great duelist in comparison to his brothers. I can think of quite a few others that are much better known as sword fighters/melee combatants, Sanguinius, Fulgrim, and Angron just to name a few. Not saying he's bad in melee, but I wouldn't rank him up there with the best of them. I see the lion as a much more tactical thinking Primarch, more like Guilliman to be honest. Bad part about that is, Guilliman's abilities are so good, i'm not sure what i'd be happy with on Lion El Johnson for aura abilities. I would prefer something that benefits the army, and not rules that just make him good in CC such as always striking first, but that's just my opinion.

He was one of the best. Flat out punked Curze, multiple times, beat Russ (a very close win, but a win).

His niche was being a master tactician, and near unstoppable in a fight. He won't be an army buffer like Guilliman. The Lion didn't make people better. What i'd expect is him to be someone whose peerless in close combat, and possible give something like a significant boost to command points, redeployments, or things like that, to show his ability to command a battlefield.

 djones520 wrote:

bobafett012 wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
It's a shame this thread doesn't have much discussion, hopefully the Codex breathes some new life/interest into the DA.

For the Lion, I truly believe he's the next Primarch back, and will be released along with the codex. It just makes too much sense, seeing as how there is no word of the DA codex coming anytime soon and Mortarion was just released.

For abilities, the Lion was always known as the best duelist among the Primarchs, so something based around combat would be very appropriate. What does everyone think the Lion Sword would do? Is allowing El'Jonson to always strike first in the first round of combat too powerful?

Yeah, with everyone getting new toys and rules, our index is getting a bit stale right now. Although the DA usually get screwed over every edition, so i won't hold my breath.

As for the Lion, i'm sure he'll be coming with the codex, but as far as him being a great duelist, i've never read about him being a great duelist in comparison to his brothers. I can think of quite a few others that are much better known as sword fighters/melee combatants, Sanguinius, Fulgrim, and Angron just to name a few. Not saying he's bad in melee, but I wouldn't rank him up there with the best of them. I see the lion as a much more tactical thinking Primarch, more like Guilliman to be honest. Bad part about that is, Guilliman's abilities are so good, i'm not sure what i'd be happy with on Lion El Johnson for aura abilities. I would prefer something that benefits the army, and not rules that just make him good in CC such as always striking first, but that's just my opinion.

He was one of the best. Flat out punked Curze, multiple times, beat Russ (a very close win, but a win).

His niche was being a master tactician, and near unstoppable in a fight. He won't be an army buffer like Guilliman. The Lion didn't make people better. What i'd expect is him to be someone whose peerless in close combat, and possible give something like a significant boost to command points, redeployments, or things like that, to show his ability to command a battlefield.

I've read a lot of Dark Angels, books as well as a ton of other 40k novels and played Dark Angels for 20 years and i've never considered The Lion a beast in CC. He was always known as a tactical genius, always has been. First off he didn't really beat Russ if we're being honest here. They fought for days to a stalemate, at which point Russ found the whole thing funny and started laughing, and The Lion sucker punched him and knocked him out. That's not a peerless fighter winning the duel. Personally, I wouldn't consider Kurze to be one of the best CC fighters of the primarchs, Hell, Corax fought Lorgar and Kurze at the same time and was holding his own for a bit, and Corax isn't up there with the likes of Sanguinius and Fulgrim. I believe Kurze and the Lion have had multiple run ins and The Lion hasn't won them all. The Lion and Russ, and the The Lion and Kurze seem to have some rivalry.

Check out this old poll I found: http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/40k-fluff/85798-who-best-tactical-genius-them.html I wouldn't consider Russ a "tactical genius" when compared to this brothers but that's probably why he only got 2 votes, however the rest I think is spot on.

Timur wrote:

I think it's likely that he will be the next primarch, since he is not lost somewhere in the eye of terror, but as i understand he is supposed to return when things get really ugly. So i think we'll have to wait until some big event happens before getting our hopes up

The Eye of Terror metastasizing and splitting the galaxy in half isn't ugly enough?

bobafett012 wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

bobafett012 wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
It's a shame this thread doesn't have much discussion, hopefully the Codex breathes some new life/interest into the DA.

For the Lion, I truly believe he's the next Primarch back, and will be released along with the codex. It just makes too much sense, seeing as how there is no word of the DA codex coming anytime soon and Mortarion was just released.

For abilities, the Lion was always known as the best duelist among the Primarchs, so something based around combat would be very appropriate. What does everyone think the Lion Sword would do? Is allowing El'Jonson to always strike first in the first round of combat too powerful?

Yeah, with everyone getting new toys and rules, our index is getting a bit stale right now. Although the DA usually get screwed over every edition, so i won't hold my breath.

As for the Lion, i'm sure he'll be coming with the codex, but as far as him being a great duelist, i've never read about him being a great duelist in comparison to his brothers. I can think of quite a few others that are much better known as sword fighters/melee combatants, Sanguinius, Fulgrim, and Angron just to name a few. Not saying he's bad in melee, but I wouldn't rank him up there with the best of them. I see the lion as a much more tactical thinking Primarch, more like Guilliman to be honest. Bad part about that is, Guilliman's abilities are so good, i'm not sure what i'd be happy with on Lion El Johnson for aura abilities. I would prefer something that benefits the army, and not rules that just make him good in CC such as always striking first, but that's just my opinion.

He was one of the best. Flat out punked Curze, multiple times, beat Russ (a very close win, but a win).

His niche was being a master tactician, and near unstoppable in a fight. He won't be an army buffer like Guilliman. The Lion didn't make people better. What i'd expect is him to be someone whose peerless in close combat, and possible give something like a significant boost to command points, redeployments, or things like that, to show his ability to command a battlefield.

I've read a lot of Dark Angels, books as well as a ton of other 40k novels and played Dark Angels for 20 years and i've never considered The Lion a beast in CC. He was always known as a tactical genius, always has been. First off he didn't really beat Russ if we're being honest here. They fought for days to a stalemate, at which point Russ found the whole thing funny and started laughing, and The Lion sucker punched him and knocked him out. That's not a peerless fighter winning the duel. Personally, I wouldn't consider Kurze to be one of the best CC fighters of the primarchs, Hell, Corax fought Lorgar and Kurze at the same time and was holding his own for a bit, and Corax isn't up there with the likes of Sanguinius and Fulgrim. I believe Kurze and the Lion have had multiple run ins and The Lion hasn't won them all. The Lion and Russ, and the The Lion and Kurze seem to have some rivalry.

Check out this old poll I found: http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/40k-fluff/85798-who-best-tactical-genius-them.html I wouldn't consider Russ a "tactical genius" when compared to this brothers but that's probably why he only got 2 votes, however the rest I think is spot on.

In one story the Lion destroys an assassin before Reboot Girlyman even notices it was there. Reboot kind've realizes that the Lion could finish him any time he wanted. The Lion also fought with Russ for a day and then knocked him out cold. He's a cc beast AND a tactical genius. I cant wait for his return!

Widied wrote:
The Lion also fought with Russ for a day and then knocked him out cold.

I've been a Dark Angel player for 20 years, and that story has been around for most of that time, and your being so misleading it's just disrespectful to Space Wolves players. Russ stopped fighting him after they fought to a stalemate, started laughing and The Lion sucker punched him. They are equals. So, i'll repeat again, that's not being a "CC Beast", and saying your better in CC than Guilliman is pretty much meaningless. He's not known for being a melee fighter. That's like saying The Lion could destroy Lorgar. Of course he can, he's not a fighter. I'm not saying he's not a good fighter, all the primarchs are no equal amongst men, but out of 18 primarchs, he's not in the top 5, neither is Guilliman, Guilliman's is probably in the bottom 5, where as the lion, should be somewhere in the middle.

So, seeing the list that won the first heat of the Warhammer GT, I'm already thinking of how I'll adapt it to Dark Angels. Basically sub in Azrael and a Primaris Lieutenant for Guilliman (not quite as good as G-man, but as close as we can currently get), put in a couple of Dark Talons in place of the Stormraven, and perhaps that could work. I just don't have 6 TLAC Razorbacks sitting around, or enough Lascannons to outfit 6 Tactical squads with one each.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
So, seeing the list that won the first heat of the Warhammer GT,.

where's this list?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Found it https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/10/16/the-grand-tournament-heat-1-the-roundup/

They must have a different meta out there. I don't think that would do so well at a major US event.

 axisofentropy wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
So, seeing the list that won the first heat of the Warhammer GT,.

where's this list?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Found it https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/10/16/the-grand-tournament-heat-1-the-roundup/

They must have a different meta out there. I don't think that would do so well at a major US event.

I'm not so sure. We already know the Guilliman Gunline is pretty nasty right now. This spreads the heavy weapons across 6 units that have to be killed to the last man to silence them. And 6 Razorbacks will do terrible, terrible things to hordes, especially with Bobby G giving them rerolls like that. Dark Angels don't get the benefits of Bobby G, but we can approximate them with Azrael + Primaris Lieutenant. When I go back to playing with my Dark Angels (probably next year since I'm currently working with my Chaos Marines/Death Guard) I do intend to give it a shot.

One thing we don't really know (unless I missed it somewhere) is what the other lists in that tournament were. If they were all fluffy lists rather than optimized competitive lists then we can conclude that this list is really not that good.

I do know the guy that won has a youtube channel and plays in a lot of tournaments. He's pretty good. I watched a report on a major even he went to towards the end of 7th and just barely missed making it to the final tables with Dark Elder which was not a great army then. IIRC it was in America to. One of the guys from Wobbly Models was in the report.

That being said, I'm not sure if the list was that good or he was. And like you said, if the other list are of the fluffy variety it could make a huge difference.

The biggest problem I see is trying to replicate it with Azzy just because everything needs to be in his bubble. I may be wrong but doesn't Bobby G let all smurfs reroll 1's and those within 6" reroll everything? For hits and wounds? I feel like that could make this list more viable for them over us just because they can spread everything out and still benefit where we are hamstrung to 6". Just my two cents though.

 ILegion wrote:
I do know the guy that won has a youtube channel and plays in a lot of tournaments. He's pretty good. I watched a report on a major even he went to towards the end of 7th and just barely missed making it to the final tables with Dark Elder which was not a great army then. IIRC it was in America to. One of the guys from Wobbly Models was in the report.

That being said, I'm not sure if the list was that good or he was. And like you said, if the other list are of the fluffy variety it could make a huge difference.

The biggest problem I see is trying to replicate it with Azzy just because everything needs to be in his bubble. I may be wrong but doesn't Bobby G let all smurfs reroll 1's and those within 6" reroll everything? For hits and wounds? I feel like that could make this list more viable for them over us just because they can spread everything out and still benefit where we are hamstrung to 6". Just my two cents though.

IIRC, he only lets friendly Ultramarine units within 6' of him re-roll all failed hit and wound rolls.

EDIT: Azrael lets you re-roll all failed hit rolls. The Lt. lets you re-roll wound rolls of 1.

 Red_Five wrote:

 ILegion wrote:
I do know the guy that won has a youtube channel and plays in a lot of tournaments. He's pretty good. I watched a report on a major even he went to towards the end of 7th and just barely missed making it to the final tables with Dark Elder which was not a great army then. IIRC it was in America to. One of the guys from Wobbly Models was in the report.

That being said, I'm not sure if the list was that good or he was. And like you said, if the other list are of the fluffy variety it could make a huge difference.

The biggest problem I see is trying to replicate it with Azzy just because everything needs to be in his bubble. I may be wrong but doesn't Bobby G let all smurfs reroll 1's and those within 6" reroll everything? For hits and wounds? I feel like that could make this list more viable for them over us just because they can spread everything out and still benefit where we are hamstrung to 6". Just my two cents though.

IIRC, he only lets friendly Ultramarine units within 6' of him re-roll all failed hit and wound rolls.

EDIT: Azrael lets you re-roll all failed hit rolls. The Lt. lets you re-roll wound rolls of 1.

Rowboat Girlyman also lets you reroll 1's to hit within 12" of him for any Imperium units, including but not limited to Ultramarines. It's part of why he's so friggin' powerful in Imperial Soup lists. I've even toyed with the idea of bringing Bobby G with my Dark Angels, but Azrael does a lot more for us, and if we need close combat power we can ally in Celestine.

Dark Angels codex before Christmas. We'll start a new tactics thread upon release.

Yup, I can't wait. I hope the Deathwing get some extras and some sort of count as troops, count as scoring units under certain circumstances, like maybe if Belial or HQ with term armor is chosen.

 axisofentropy wrote:
Dark Angels codex before Christmas. We'll start a new tactics thread upon release.

I saw that announcement and was like "SQUEEEEE!"

I sure hope we get the Lion, cheaper bikes and terminators (we know we'll get a price drop on fists), and better psychic powers. Another thing I'd like to have back is better overwatch. I miss our old 7th edition Grim Resolve.

I wouldn't expect terms or bikes as troops as this did not happen for Eldar for Iyanden or Saim Hann. I do wonder if there will be a chapter tactic for just Ravenwing or Deathwing.

I'm mainly looking forward to cheaper units, interesting strategems, and expanded psychic deck.

As for the Lion, I don't expect to see him which is a shame.

So I went ahead and bought an army before the codex came out. I got it all on ebay so it was pretty cheap. I got:

8 bikes
1 melta attack bike
1 lascannon fist dread
1 DV tac squad
2 DV DW termy squad
The DV characters
1 old metal captain
1 metal sammy bike
5 DW Knights
1 DW Command Squad

My goal for this army is painting and casual play. Anything you suggest to add?

 Egyptian Space Zombie wrote:
So I went ahead and bought an army before the codex came out. I got it all on ebay so it was pretty cheap. I got:

8 bikes
1 melta attack bike
1 lascannon fist dread
1 DV tac squad
2 DV DW termy squad
The DV characters
1 old metal captain
1 metal sammy bike
5 DW Knights
1 DW Command Squad

My goal for this army is painting and casual play. Anything you suggest to add?

Possibly one or more of the flyers, especially a Dark Talon. Those are pretty solid. Also, the special characters are pretty solid as well (Azrael especially, but the others are good too).

http://natfka.blogspot.gr/2017/11/rumors-dark-angels-leaks-and-codex.html?m=1

Damn just read through this new leak post. Whats your thoughts on this leak guys? I mean it seems way too powerful to be true. And Lion's abilities seem nuts.

Noneisbackhere wrote:
http://natfka.blogspot.gr/2017/11/rumors-dark-angels-leaks-and-codex.html?m=1

Damn just read through this new leak post. Whats your thoughts on this leak guys? I mean it seems way too powerful to be true. And Lion's abilities seem nuts.

Seems like bs, regain CP on a 4+, that too powerfull. I once played against guiliman but instead of warlords trait that returns cp on 5+ we played it as a 4+ and thats just crazy.
Other than this ability he seems ok, guilliman has the invul 3+ also, so its fine that lion also has it, giving rerols to unforgiven is actually crap, since those are only deathwing and some characters, but it fits with his personality since he had issues with trusting people

The blade master ability seems broken, that will be an insane amount of attacks.

firing overwatch at full BS for just 1 CP,or firing twice for 2cp, i'm not believing that

Noneisbackhere wrote:
http://natfka.blogspot.gr/2017/11/rumors-dark-angels-leaks-and-codex.html?m=1

Damn just read through this new leak post. Whats your thoughts on this leak guys? I mean it seems way too powerful to be true. And Lion's abilities seem nuts.

yeah the relic banners are too good to be true. they're good guesses tho.

Noneisbackhere wrote:
http://natfka.blogspot.gr/2017/11/rumors-dark-angels-leaks-and-codex.html?m=1

Damn just read through this new leak post. Whats your thoughts on this leak guys? I mean it seems way too powerful to be true. And Lion's abilities seem nuts.

Total nonsense and utterly fake IMHO

While I want to believe that leak, I know for a fact that it is WAY too powerful to be real. The relics are crazy, the Lion's abilities are way too good, and the stratagems are too good for the CP cost. That being said, it would be cool if the relic banners did in fact show up in the codex, in more realistic fashion of course. Maybe the Standard of Devastation could just grant rerolls to wound or something instead of double shooting. And it would be nice if we get the Lion and he's balanced well, not the undercosted craziness of Guilliman or Magnus.

Quick question about Biker Loadout:

Do they keep their bolt pistol if I add a special weapon (e.g. plasma gun)?

--> the index states, that they may "exchange" their pistol for a chainsword, but "take" a special weapon.
Does this mean, a bike keeps its pistol and gains a plasma gun resulting in 3 usable weapons? (5 Bolter shots and 2 plasma shots at 12'')

Aeri wrote:
Quick question about Biker Loadout:

Do they keep their bolt pistol if I add a special weapon (e.g. plasma gun)?

--> the index states, that they may "exchange" their pistol for a chainsword, but "take" a special weapon.
Does this mean, a bike keeps its pistol and gains a plasma gun resulting in 3 usable weapons? (5 Bolter shots and 2 plasma shots at 12'')

I believe they do keep the pistol, but you can't use a pistol in addition to other weapons in the shooting phase. Which is why I go with the chainsword on my bikers so that they aren't completely toothless in CC.

I thought you can now shoot every weapon on a model?!

Aeri wrote:
Quick question about Biker Loadout:

Do they keep their bolt pistol if I add a special weapon (e.g. plasma gun)?

--> the index states, that they may "exchange" their pistol for a chainsword, but "take" a special weapon.
Does this mean, a bike keeps its pistol and gains a plasma gun resulting in 3 usable weapons? (5 Bolter shots and 2 plasma shots at 12'')

yes they keep it but can't shoot pistols along with other weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aeri wrote:
I thought you can now shoot every weapon on a model?!

check the pistols section of the 8 page basic rules

Trying to think of a different way to play my Dark Angels. This isn't really all that different but I have most the models so figured why not see if I can get more than the Primaris LT into my list. Thoughts?

Battalion
Ezekial
Librarian
Scout squad - 4 sniper rifles
Scout squad - 4 sniper rifles
Scout squad - 5 sniper rifles
Apothecary
4 x assaultbacks

Spearhead
Azreal
Primaris LT
Darkshroud
3 x 5 man hellblasters with plasma incinerators
Dark Talon

Pretty straight forward. Azzy, LT, Librarians, and Apoth walk forward with the hellblasters doing their thing. Figured the Dark Shroud can fly in circles advancing for jink save while providing the -1 hit bubble.. Scouts screen and assaultbacks do their thing. I know it isn't super competitive but do you think it'd be good enough to put up a fight at the FLGS?

Gonna play my first 8th edition tournament this weekend guys and this is the list i've came up with.

Battalion Detatchment:

HQ:
-Azrael
-Primaris Lt.

Troops:
-Scout Squad-5 sniper rifles, camo cloaks
-Tactical Sq- Plasma cannon, combi-plasma
-Tactical Sq-Missile Launcher

Elites:
-Culexus Assasin
-Deathwing Ancient- TH-SS
-Deathwing Knightsx5
-Reiver Squadx5

Fast Attack:
-Darkshroud

Heavy Support:
-Hellblaster squadx5-plasma incinerators
-Predator-Autocannon,2xLS,Hunter-missile
-Predator-TL,2xLS,SB

Flyer:
-Dark Talon

Whats your thoughts on the list guys? Tactic wise i'm using the Reivers and the knights for some Deepstrike objectives catch since in many games the Azrael bubble tact didnt help much cause of its low mobility. Im gonna use the Azzy for a small bubble alongside with Primaris Lt-predators-darkshroud and maybe culexus.Also some of the tactical for area denial, and the rest of the units for securing objectives.

I'd be worried you won't have enough of a screen to protect the gunline with what's in here right now. I usually use 3 units of scouts as the first line to use their scout move to block stuff out way up ahead then have a second line to screen behind them. I use assault razorbacks but something here would be good. As it stands your gunline would be pretty vulnerable to deep strike or someone doing something like casting warptime on a fast moving unit to get that unit into the thick of your guns pretty quickly.

And ymmv but I've found the only really effective way to run DW Knights is in a land raider, preferably a crusader. These guys are expensive so you want them in combat where they shine. Good chance that if you deep strike them they will fail the charge and just be kited around the rest of the game without ever doing much. And they are a rather an expensive unit just to use as an objective grabber.

1500 point tournament coming up. Thinking of running this list. Feel like it covers most threats. Went flamers as i had a few points i didn't know what to really do with....

Sammuel
5 ravenwing bikers, power sword, chainswords, flamer
5 ravenwing bikers, power sowrd, chainswords, flamer
4 black knights, melta bomb
4 black knights, melta bomb
4 black knights, melta bomb
Darkshroud, assault cannon
Nephilim, twin lascannon

Let us know how this works please! I want to know how a pure ravenwing army does.

Some thoughts:
Could you replace the assault cannon with a heavy bolter? It's cheaper and you'll probably be moving this a lot to keep up with the Black Knights and Sammy so it'll kind of a waste to pay 20 points for an assault cannon that will be hitting on 4+. Besides, you really want this for the -1 to hit. No need putting more points into it.

By dropping the assault cannon and flamers you should be able to stick 2 plasma guns in a bike squad. They'd probably be a lot more useful.

 ILegion wrote:
Let us know how this works please! I want to know how a pure ravenwing army does.

Some thoughts:
Could you replace the assault cannon with a heavy bolter? It's cheaper and you'll probably be moving this a lot to keep up with the Black Knights and Sammy so it'll kind of a waste to pay 20 points for an assault cannon that will be hitting on 4+. Besides, you really want this for the -1 to hit. No need putting more points into it.

By dropping the assault cannon and flamers you should be able to stick 2 plasma guns in a bike squad. They'd probably be a lot more useful.

Hmm.. true. I had some concerns with how often we are seeing armored company lists. Perhaps adding meltaguns to the bikers would be a good way to help mitigate that threat. I know for sure, dropping the assault cannon, i can toss a melta into each squad. maybe 2 into each.

Something else to consider. You can also move and advance the Dark Shroud in circles. They tend to be targeted pretty early so a jink save wouldn't hurt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I say in circles so you can keep that bubble where it's needy. Just have to be smart with how you move it so it doesn't get charged and stuff.

Righto peeps, new to playing DA and somehow I've ended up with four (yes four) lots of the Dark Vengeance Dark Angel lots

Given whats in there, and a small budget to add to it, how would you recommend creating a 1k and 1250pts list to get me started?

 Tooooon wrote:
Righto peeps, new to playing DA and somehow I've ended up with four (yes four) lots of the Dark Vengeance Dark Angel lots

Given whats in there, and a small budget to add to it, how would you recommend creating a 1k and 1250pts list to get me started?

To start with, convert one of the Company Masters to be Azrael. He's very key for Dark Angels right now. If you want to run a Battalion, take three of the tac squads, perhaps keep at least a couple of them at 10 men and put them near Azzy for the rerolls to hit. Take a Libby as your second HQ (maybe even convert one into Ezekiel or at least proxy until you can come up with the actual model).

Here's a possible list at 1k:

This list would be a good starter since all it needs is the models from the Dark Vengeance sets, with perhaps some very basic conversion work to turn a CM into Azrael. Alternatively, if you don't feel like running Azzy, you could just run him as a standard CM with combi-plasma and power sword, drop the 2 extra tacs from the third squad, and put in a Razorback (if you can get one). Not super competitive, but a nice starter force. To take it to 1250, just throw in one of the Deathwing squads.

Honestly, with 4 sets of DV, you are off to a great start. I'd look for some extra special weapons to swap for the ones the models come with (some cutting will be required), although plasma is certainly good in this edition. Definitely pick up a Razorback or five, and Dreadnoughts aren't a bad buy either. Heck, get the Primaris half of Dark Imperium and that'll give you some different options, although you may not want Primaris guys right away.

https://spikeybits.com/2017/11/rumor-lion-returns-dark-angels-codex-content.html

WTF,
Lion El' Jonson, comparable with Girlyman, DS less than 9" if Ravenwing nearby, shoot twice, charge +3" for rolls... CP expensive, but man that should be devastating. This compared to BA codex leaks are way better than what we have heard for BA counterparts getting.

Xirax wrote:
https://spikeybits.com/2017/11/rumor-lion-returns-dark-angels-codex-content.html

WTF,
Lion El' Jonson, comparable with Girlyman, DS less than 9" if Ravenwing nearby, shoot twice, charge +3" for rolls... CP expensive, but man that should be devastating. This compared to BA codex leaks are way better than what we have heard for BA counterparts getting.

This one has long since been shown to be complete crap. As much as we all wish the Lion would be there and be as good as Bobby G, I don't think he's even going to be in the codex. If we get him at all, he'll be later in a campaign book or something. I actually heard a rumor that GW said there would be no more loyalist Primarchs coming back, only a few more Daemon ones (probably Fulgrim next). I hope it isn't true, as I want a cool model of The Lion!

Xirax wrote:
https://spikeybits.com/2017/11/rumor-lion-returns-dark-angels-codex-content.html

this is old, and I here bet my reputation it's nearly all bunk.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In other news, if Monday brings a dark angels piece on Warhammer Community with at least one new rule, I'll make and maintain a new DA tactics thread then.

So now we know our codex will allow Deathwing in Tartaros and Cataphractii term armor. How does everyone see this affecting their army?

I just don't see running Cataphractii over Knights. I mean the knights are probably the best CC term unit in the game and they 3++ with SS and better TH. The Tartaros aren't terrible. being able to have a squad full of combi melta or plasma would be nice, but I'd rather have an assault cannon or cyclone over a reaper.

Tactics thread for new codex here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/745954.page

Mods please lock this thread soon for archival.