Kirasu wrote: My rule for FFG is "Ignore it for 6 months and see if they actually continue support for it".
Beyond X-Wing they have a pretty awful track record. I'm tired of getting burned on their new games.
I'm trying to be a moderating cynic here, but even I can see they supported the hell out of SW Armada. It took a long hiatus of support between wave 2 and 3, but they're one wave 6 releases now, within three years of release, and by all accounts its a more balanced and diverse game now than when it launched.
Kirasu wrote: My rule for FFG is "Ignore it for 6 months and see if they actually continue support for it".
Beyond X-Wing they have a pretty awful track record. I'm tired of getting burned on their new games.
I'm trying to be a moderating cynic here, but even I can see they supported the hell out of SW Armada. It took a long hiatus of support between wave 2 and 3, but they're one wave 6 releases now, within three years of release, and by all accounts its a more balanced and diverse game now than when it launched.
Just giving credit where due.
... and they are about to release Imperial Assaults 5th expansion.
I bought the rulebooks for WEG Star Wars Minis and tried to play them with WotC figs about 10 years ago, never really went off with my friends. They were very innovative and quick by 1991 standards, but they're very slow and methodical by today's standards. It was basically the RPG system pared down and turned into a combat game without any of the roleplaying aspect, so imagine playing a couple dozen low or mid-level AD&D figures against a couple dozen other low/mid AD&D characters, with a few large monsters (Vehicles) on each side. Although, the WEG RPG system was much cleaner and much faster than AD&D to begin with, but you get the idea. If you like the idea of using an RPG system scaled down so you can play out small battles, you may be very interested in the WEG SWMB. Digital versions are pretty easy to find online, if you want to give it a try
Kalamadea wrote: I bought the rulebooks for WEG Star Wars Minis and tried to play them with WotC figs about 10 years ago, never really went off with my friends. They were very innovative and quick by 1991 standards, but they're very slow and methodical by today's standards. It was basically the RPG system pared down and turned into a combat game without any of the roleplaying aspect, so imagine playing a couple dozen low or mid-level AD&D figures against a couple dozen other low/mid AD&D characters, with a few large monsters (Vehicles) on each side. Although, the WEG RPG system was much cleaner and much faster than AD&D to begin with, but you get the idea. If you like the idea of using an RPG system scaled down so you can play out small battles, you may be very interested in the WEG SWMB. Digital versions are pretty easy to find online, if you want to give it a try
Thanks! That doesn't seem particularly appealing, but I did like WEG's system back in the day, so who knows.
adamsouza wrote: I don't like the unique dice, and counters required to play. Not crazy about them being in a different scale.
WEG, WOTC, FFG, and FFG again have alreased star wars miniatures in a different scale than their predecessors.
I just want to know what size these stormtroopers. Are they Astra Militarum, Space Marine, Primaris Marine, or larger sized?
I've been waiting 2 decades for 40K sized Star Wars Stormtroopers.
At this point It's looking like they will be a head taller(Luke has been mentioned at 35mm tall) than 40k guard(30mm), slightly shorter than primaris(38mm)
For me their too big to fit with my collection but these resin masters might be larger for shrinkage if their using pvc etc...
adamsouza wrote: I don't like the unique dice, and counters required to play. Not crazy about them being in a different scale.
WEG, WOTC, FFG, and FFG again have alreased star wars miniatures in a different scale than their predecessors.
I just want to know what size these stormtroopers. Are they Astra Militarum, Space Marine, Primaris Marine, or larger sized?
I've been waiting 2 decades for 40K sized Star Wars Stormtroopers.
At this point It's looking like they will be a head taller(Luke has been mentioned at 35mm tall) than 40k guard(30mm), slightly shorter than primaris(38mm)
For me their too big to fit with my collection but these resin masters might be larger for shrinkage if their using pvc etc...
I was wondering as well whether they were printed at 100% for the PVC masters and not at a smaller size to account for the shrinkage that will inevitably happen with the PVC end product.
You know I thought this would be cooler looking than it is, but I think I'll stick to Armada as my preferred game. It's simply too small scale and I don't like the models.
Which is weird since for years I've wanted a star wars ground based mini's game but now that I actually see it it's not exciting me. Probably also has to do with how full my plate is with hobby projects from different hobbies so I'm good.
Not sure I understand "too small a scale". A standard game is twice what a starter offers which is in itself 13-14 troopers, a hero and 1-2 light vehicles.
I understand the "additional game" problems, though. Its too much for me to dedicate to another game, unfortunately, awesome as it is. I have to stick to Armada.
If it is possible then the only thing holding me back is time and money. I am getting Kingdom Death this year no matter what I have to do to get a box.
With these sized miniatures, you could do a slightly scaled down battle of hoth on a 8x6 or so sized table. AT-ATs wouldn't be to scale with the 28mm models, but they could still be 15 or so inches tall.
Grey Templar wrote: With these sized miniatures, you could do a slightly scaled down battle of hoth on a 8x6 or so sized table. AT-ATs wouldn't be to scale with the 28mm models, but they could still be 15 or so inches tall.
The WotC AT-AT is around 12" tall, which is only fractionally too small, and looks impressive enough on the table.
Mitochondria wrote: I keep seeing people saying that FFG does not have a license to make Star Wars boardgames.
This seems to be untrue because they make Rebellion and that is definitely a boardgame.
Fantasy Flight do not have the Star Wars Boardgame licence and they originally tried to get around this by claiming that Imperial Assault was a miniatures game rather than a board game. This argument didn't work and they ended up coming to an agreement with Harsbo where they are not able to sell it directly to through there own webstore though and all sales / distribution have to go through Hasbro, this makes the profit margins on it much slimmer. They then used this new agreement to make Rebellion.
Mitochondria wrote: This seems to be untrue because they make Rebellion and that is definitely a board game.
I asked around about this over on the FFG forum. The story appears to be that Hasbro and FFG had a dispute about the SW license regarding board games and as part of the resolution, FFG can no longer make direct sales of Imperial Assault and Rbellion and Hasbro has some kind of distribution rights as to those games, Who knows how true this is, but those games are indeed listed as "not available" on FFG's site.
Mitochondria wrote: Also, at 30-35mm in size, the miniatures are far too large to field a "Legion".
Also, there is only one war portrayed in the original movie trilogy - hardly "Star Wars."
We are far beyond the original trilogy with eight movies out there in the wild. Pleanty of material to pull from.
The "no direct distribution" thing is weird considering an expansion for Rebellion is due out shortly.
Another version of the rumor, or maybe another way of expressing the same rumor, is that Hasbro is the direct license-holder and FFG is a sub-licensee.
Mitochondria wrote: I keep seeing people saying that FFG does not have a license to make Star Wars boardgames.
This seems to be untrue because they make Rebellion and that is definitely a boardgame.
Fantasy Flight do not have the Star Wars Boardgame licence and they originally tried to get around this by claiming that Imperial Assault was a miniatures game rather than a board game. This argument didn't work and they ended up coming to an agreement with Harsbo where they are not able to sell it directly to through there own webstore though and all sales / distribution have to go through Hasbro, this makes the profit margins on it much slimmer. They then used this new agreement to make Rebellion.
Rebellion is still selling, it is a boardgame, and an expansion based on Rogue One is due out shortly.
The "only Hasbro makes Star Wars boardgames" rumor continues to be just that, a rumor.
I know that Rebellion and Imperial Assault are still being sold and that further expansions are on the way but Fantasy Flight are not able to sell them direct, only through Hasbro which is why the "Not Available" is listed against (and always has been listed against) every Rebellion and Imperial Assault item on the Fantasy Flight website (which is also an online store) where as every other item they currently produce is listed as available.
Aeneades wrote: I know that Rebellion and Imperial Assault are still being sold and that further expansions are on the way but Fantasy Flight are not able to sell them direct, only through Hasbro which is why the "Not Available" is listed against (and always has been listed against) every Rebellion and Imperial Assault item on the Fantasy Flight website (which is also an online store) where as every other item they currently produce is listed as available.
That would be the case worldwide, would it not? Because the Fantasy Flight Spain's site allows you to buy both direct. I just checked.
I wonder how badly the heroes will be struck with the movie marines effect for game balance. Going by the source material Luke and especially Vader should be able to take on the other sides grunts all by themselves.
GoatboyBeta wrote: I wonder how badly the heroes will be struck with the movie marines effect for game balance. Going by the source material Luke and especially Vader should be able to take on the other sides grunts all by themselves.
Both Luke and even moreso Vader seem more than capable of mowing down entire units. Of course, given that without options they cost respectively 160 and 200 points, they better be :p
Based on source material, any decent Jedi with a lightsaber can tank a fairly absurd number of blaster shots. When do we ever see one fail to deflect them? The only time I can think of is during the Order 66 surprise attack.
TheWaspinator wrote: Based on source material, any decent Jedi with a lightsaber can tank a fairly absurd number of blaster shots. When do we ever see one fail to deflect them? The only time I can think of is during the Order 66 surprise attack.
I suppose then that it's a good thing that the remaining jedi by and large in the same source material are not decent but rather failed jedi, those with marginal force abilities, or others that never completed their training... all of which likely are rusty by the GCW era from not publicly using their powers frequently out of fear of being found out.
Aeneades wrote: I know that Rebellion and Imperial Assault are still being sold and that further expansions are on the way but Fantasy Flight are not able to sell them direct, only through Hasbro which is why the "Not Available" is listed against (and always has been listed against) every Rebellion and Imperial Assault item on the Fantasy Flight website (which is also an online store) where as every other item they currently produce is listed as available.
That would be the case worldwide, would it not? Because the Fantasy Flight Spain's site allows you to buy both direct. I just checked.
TheWaspinator wrote: Based on source material, any decent Jedi with a lightsaber can tank a fairly absurd number of blaster shots. When do we ever see one fail to deflect them? The only time I can think of is during the Order 66 surprise attack.
Episode 2 attack on Geonosis, several get shot in the arena.
TheWaspinator wrote: Based on source material, any decent Jedi with a lightsaber can tank a fairly absurd number of blaster shots. When do we ever see one fail to deflect them? The only time I can think of is during the Order 66 surprise attack.
and luke takes one to the hand on jabbas funtime barge, but your point still stands pretty well.
Your army is built with the following restrictions in mind, > 1 - 2 Commanders (You are still limited to a hand of 7 command cards though, and can still only play 1 per turn. This just gives you flexibility. Leia was mentioned as a commander option.) > 3 - 6 Corps (This includes basic Stormtroopers and Rebel Troopers, core set comes with 2 of each) > Up to 3 Special Forces (None in the command box, though Imperial Scout Troopers were mentioned as being in this role) > Up to 3 Support (The AT-RT and Speeder Bikes in the Core Set fill this role) > Up to 2 Heavy Units (Snowspeeders and AT-STs were mentioned)
Missions are also card based. The person with the least points chooses which player they are at the start of the game - blue or red. Their opponent is the colour that isn't chosen. The blue players then draws 3 deployment, objective and condition cards and discards 1 of each (their choice as to which). The red player then picks one of each card type from the remaining 6 to discard, leaving 1 of each. These form your mission.
There's another action - refresh. This is used to ready exhausted upgrades (like some force powers).
If you unit leader is in base contact with terrain, you ignore and cover it gives when shooting with that unit.
'Impact X' turns X number of hits into crits when targeting vehicles.
Barricades give 'heavy cover' (cancels 2 hits automatically) while trees are 'light cover' (only cancels 1 hit).
thekingofkings wrote: size of minis are not going to matter for me, I have about 1,000+ wotc minis for this I am itching to use
Don't forget that FFG minis will likely come with a bunch of cards, counters, possibly even dice, etc that you'll need to actually use the unit. Be prepared for a bunch of crafting, printing and gluing if you're going to use those WOTC models, assuming that's even possible (i.e. There's good digital images to print somewhere.)
FYI, I just got back from GenCon. I watched a few demos of this at the cool tables. Overall, the minis were pretty good. Looks like they will be similar to the new 40K quick build stuff. There may be some customization, but not a lot in the first sets.
Looks like squads top out at 5 units. Upgrades are by cards (as usual.) 6 different dice. Attack dice are d8, defense are d6. Movement is by single jointed range rulers of different lengths. Interesting overall, and pretty clearly designed to compete with 40K.
As a huge Star Wars fan, I may well get into it, but we will have to see how it goes.
Aeneades wrote: I know that Rebellion and Imperial Assault are still being sold and that further expansions are on the way but Fantasy Flight are not able to sell them direct, only through Hasbro which is why the "Not Available" is listed against (and always has been listed against) every Rebellion and Imperial Assault item on the Fantasy Flight website (which is also an online store) where as every other item they currently produce is listed as available.
This isn't accurate, at least anymore. I own a board game store, and I can assure you that both imperial Assault and Rebellion are sold through Asmodee North America (the company that owns FFG) in the United States. And both have the same profit margin as all other ANA/FFG products. Though, to be fair, Imperial Assault did have a worse margin when it first released due to some sort of licensing drama. Whatever it was, though, it got sorted out and both the margin and distribution have conformed to FFG's standard setup ever since.
vadersson wrote: FYI, I just got back from GenCon. I watched a few demos of this at the cool tables. Overall, the minis were pretty good. Looks like they will be similar to the new 40K quick build stuff. There may be some customization, but not a lot in the first sets.
Looks like squads top out at 5 units. Upgrades are by cards (as usual.) 6 different dice. Attack dice are d8, defense are d6. Movement is by single jointed range rulers of different lengths. Interesting overall, and pretty clearly designed to compete with 40K.
As a huge Star Wars fan, I may well get into it, but we will have to see how it goes.
Thanks,
Duncan
I got to actually demo it Saturday, and I cant see how it will even compete with 40k. Its a carbon copy of all their other games. Z wing, armada, rune wars. Special dice, upgrade cards, stat cards, goofy measuring. Nothing in this game is close to original from anything else they have done. and yes, SW is popular, but for a war game like this. 2 factions is just going to get old.
SW is slowly rising to the Cuthulu/Zombie problem that the market will be over saturated from it soon enough. For me, its already there. This is like I said, "Aother FFG game with special dice"
I mean to be honest, Games Workshop could put anthrax in every newly made box of models and about 50% of this board would defend it.
Funny, it seems to me that they could put sweet, sweet candy in each box and it seems that 50% of this board would piss all over it. While staying desperately attached to the conversation and following each release with the obsessive interest levels of a stalker.
People wishing that this was CW instead of GCW for the sake of a few non-canon vehicles are, well, more invested in their own personal logic and desires when the reality is that the OT (plus R1 and anything else sprinkled into that timeline) will sell SO much better than prequel-based products.
Well, the thing is it doesn't have to directly compete with 40k.
Star Wars, by being Star Wars, will sell to people who have never heard of or been interested in table top wargames, but do like Star Wars games. You're not necessarily after the same market.
It's like how many, if not most, of the people who play Xwing and Armada have never ever played any other wargame. I would say at least 2/3 of my Xwing group never played any other wargame before they picked it up.
Besides, a lot of 40k people will probably pick it up because they're also Star Wars fans and it's a Star Wars table top wargame that is similar to what they're familiar with. It doesn't have to be original, it's Star Wars. Star Wars is the definition of repetitive overused stereotypes and unoriginal plots. It's still much loved anyway.
Most definitely interested, as Star Wars is my favourite universe, with Warhammer 40k coming in a close second.
I like the models, but I want to know what material they are in. Will they be hard plastic, like GW, or the annoying and easy-bending plastic they use for Imperial Assault? Not sure if this has been said anywhere, but if it has I've missed it.
Special dice is always annoying, don't like that. Otherwise it sounds pretty good, just from the description. Will need to see some demos before making a verdict though.
Aeneades wrote: Legion Stormtrooper next to an Imperial Assault Stormtrooper -
Spoiler:
I really prefer the proportions of the older models and the height of the Legion base looks ridiculous.
Thanks for the pic dude, unless there's some serious pvc shrinkage with the production minis I'm out
Pretty much the same for me, I had high hopes of integrating IA minis!!!
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alleus wrote: Special dice is always annoying, don't like that. Otherwise it sounds pretty good, just from the description. Will need to see some demos before making a verdict though.
Again, same here, I also dislike the amount of tabletop clutter (marker, Cards, markers again etc) that FFG normally put is a game...
vadersson wrote: FYI, I just got back from GenCon. I watched a few demos of this at the cool tables. Overall, the minis were pretty good. Looks like they will be similar to the new 40K quick build stuff. There may be some customization, but not a lot in the first sets.
Looks like squads top out at 5 units. Upgrades are by cards (as usual.) 6 different dice. Attack dice are d8, defense are d6. Movement is by single jointed range rulers of different lengths. Interesting overall, and pretty clearly designed to compete with 40K.
As a huge Star Wars fan, I may well get into it, but we will have to see how it goes.
Thanks,
Duncan
IIRC, the units from the core top out at 6 minis (they start with 4 and allow you to buy an additional regular trooper and a heavy weapon trooper).
alleus wrote: Most definitely interested, as Star Wars is my favourite universe, with Warhammer 40k coming in a close second.
I like the models, but I want to know what material they are in. Will they be hard plastic, like GW, or the annoying and easy-bending plastic they use for Imperial Assault? Not sure if this has been said anywhere, but if it has I've missed it.
Special dice is always annoying, don't like that. Otherwise it sounds pretty good, just from the description. Will need to see some demos before making a verdict though.
Its their usual stuff, not hard plastic like GW. Was told from guy who gave me demo
I think the confusion on the models is that the Luke from painting video appears to be a harder material (resin maybe) but it has since been confirmed that it's a test model as they haven't started production yet so likely to be a different material than retail models.
vadersson wrote: FYI, I just got back from GenCon. I watched a few demos of this at the cool tables. Overall, the minis were pretty good. Looks like they will be similar to the new 40K quick build stuff. There may be some customization, but not a lot in the first sets.
Looks like squads top out at 5 units. Upgrades are by cards (as usual.) 6 different dice. Attack dice are d8, defense are d6. Movement is by single jointed range rulers of different lengths. Interesting overall, and pretty clearly designed to compete with 40K.
As a huge Star Wars fan, I may well get into it, but we will have to see how it goes.
Thanks,
Duncan
SW is slowly rising to the Cuthulu/Zombie problem that the market will be over saturated from it soon enough. For me, its already there. This is like I said, "Aother FFG game with special dice"
Star Wars has kind of been there off and on over the years.
I'm not sure a skirmish game is the best use of the IP. The best thing they have going for it right now is that Star Wars is a money making household name.
I have a friend that is pretty hyped over this and building a Rebel Force, will probably spilt the starter with him so he'll have someone to play. Beyond that I'm gonna wait patiently to see what else comes down the pipe.
First Order will get me, as will Mandos of any kind hoping for Imperial Super Commandos.
Also some kind of Krennic and Death Troopers vs Rogue One, Battle of Scarif set would be cool.
Disney is definitely testing the limits of franchise fatigue right now. I love Star Wars, but how long until our eyes start to glaze over every time we see a guy in a robe with a lightsaber?
EnTyme wrote: Disney is definitely testing the limits of franchise fatigue right now. I love Star Wars, but how long until our eyes start to glaze over every time we see a guy in a robe with a lightsaber?
Saber jockeys have pretty much always glazed my eyes over. As a kid it was all about the Storm Troopers for me.
EnTyme wrote: Disney is definitely testing the limits of franchise fatigue right now. I love Star Wars, but how long until our eyes start to glaze over every time we see a guy in a robe with a lightsaber?
AegisGrimm wrote: The demo guy at Gencon was pretty confident the plastic of the minis was like that of Runewars. Which is soft, but not Descent soft.
Speaking of Runewars.. I wonder if SWL will suffer from having 2 factions the way Runewars did.. RW at least has expanded (and will presumably continue to do so).. but what will SWL do? I mean, yeah.. variants of the 2 factions.. and maybe Scoundrels.. but they killed the expanded universe which would've opened up a few opportunities. If they allow Clone Wars era.. there's at least that.. or old republic.. but come on.. for the era of this release 3 factions is going to be about all you can stretch. Or are we going to all pretend that Ewoks or Jawas or Tusken Raiders could mount an effective army?
AegisGrimm wrote: The demo guy at Gencon was pretty confident the plastic of the minis was like that of Runewars. Which is soft, but not Descent soft.
Speaking of Runewars.. I wonder if SWL will suffer from having 2 factions the way Runewars did.. RW at least has expanded (and will presumably continue to do so).. but what will SWL do? I mean, yeah.. variants of the 2 factions.. and maybe Scoundrels.. but they killed the expanded universe which would've opened up a few opportunities. If they allow Clone Wars era.. there's at least that.. or old republic.. but come on.. for the era of this release 3 factions is going to be about all you can stretch. Or are we going to all pretend that Ewoks or Jawas or Tusken Raiders could mount an effective army?
on tatooine the tuskens very well could mount an effective force, most armies in star wars are local anyhow. The 2 factions are not a problem due to the variety within the factions. realistically 40k has imperial and other, and most of that other is terribad anyhow.
Scum is almost a give in. But as a faction Black Sun is as close to a force as they can get...although BS is much less of a battlefield force than rebels.
ProtoClone wrote: Scum is almost a give in. But as a faction Black Sun is as close to a force as they can get...although BS is much less of a battlefield force than rebels.
AegisGrimm wrote: The demo guy at Gencon was pretty confident the plastic of the minis was like that of Runewars. Which is soft, but not Descent soft.
Speaking of Runewars.. I wonder if SWL will suffer from having 2 factions the way Runewars did.. RW at least has expanded (and will presumably continue to do so).. but what will SWL do? I mean, yeah.. variants of the 2 factions.. and maybe Scoundrels.. but they killed the expanded universe which would've opened up a few opportunities. If they allow Clone Wars era.. there's at least that.. or old republic.. but come on.. for the era of this release 3 factions is going to be about all you can stretch. Or are we going to all pretend that Ewoks or Jawas or Tusken Raiders could mount an effective army?
on tatooine the tuskens very well could mount an effective force, most armies in star wars are local anyhow. The 2 factions are not a problem due to the variety within the factions. realistically 40k has imperial and other, and most of that other is terribad anyhow.
Ehhh.. 1. We disagree on the abilities of a nomadic people that use primitive weapons and pack animals to withstand the full might of a full-on sci fi army.. 2. Localized armies are fine for movies and books and whatnot but it kinda kills the immersion factor to be fighting on a Hoth board with Ewoks vs Tusken raiders or whatever..
I agree on the variety within the Emp and Reb factions though.
RE: Mandolorian - Uh.. yeah.. not really.. by this point they were pretty much gone... unless they changed all that.. Boba's armor was supposed to belong to a long-dead warrior race or somesuch. I've seen the excuse for Mandolorians the cartoon showed and I'm just not buying it.
If this has lists intended for skirmish and then separate for bigger engagements, then yeah all of that stuff opens up more too.. plus Nightwitches could be plausible I suppose. I'm excited about the game but how they deal with non-major 2 is going to be big in determing how a lot of this is seen I think.
ProtoClone wrote: Scum is almost a give in. But as a faction Black Sun is as close to a force as they can get...although BS is much less of a battlefield force than rebels.
there are lots of nasty little factions that could appear
None of that really is ARMY scale though.. skirmish yes..
Kashyyk could probably send out a wookie army though.
There's also the post Palpatine separatists..
AegisGrimm wrote: The demo guy at Gencon was pretty confident the plastic of the minis was like that of Runewars. Which is soft, but not Descent soft.
Speaking of Runewars.. I wonder if SWL will suffer from having 2 factions the way Runewars did.. RW at least has expanded (and will presumably continue to do so).. but what will SWL do? I mean, yeah.. variants of the 2 factions.. and maybe Scoundrels.. but they killed the expanded universe which would've opened up a few opportunities. If they allow Clone Wars era.. there's at least that.. or old republic.. but come on.. for the era of this release 3 factions is going to be about all you can stretch. Or are we going to all pretend that Ewoks or Jawas or Tusken Raiders could mount an effective army?
on tatooine the tuskens very well could mount an effective force, most armies in star wars are local anyhow. The 2 factions are not a problem due to the variety within the factions. realistically 40k has imperial and other, and most of that other is terribad anyhow.
Ehhh.. 1. We disagree on the abilities of a nomadic people that use primitive weapons and pack animals to withstand the full might of a full-on sci fi army.. 2. Localized armies are fine for movies and books and whatnot but it kinda kills the immersion factor to be fighting on a Hoth board with Ewoks vs Tusken raiders or whatever..
I agree on the variety within the Emp and Reb factions though.
RE: Mandolorian - Uh.. yeah.. not really.. by this point they were pretty much gone... unless they changed all that.. Boba's armor was supposed to belong to a long-dead warrior race or somesuch. I've seen the excuse for Mandolorians the cartoon showed and I'm just not buying it.
If this has lists intended for skirmish and then separate for bigger engagements, then yeah all of that stuff opens up more too.. plus Nightwitches could be plausible I suppose. I'm excited about the game but how they deal with non-major 2 is going to be big in determing how a lot of this is seen I think.
ProtoClone wrote: Scum is almost a give in. But as a faction Black Sun is as close to a force as they can get...although BS is much less of a battlefield force than rebels.
there are lots of nasty little factions that could appear
None of that really is ARMY scale though.. skirmish yes..
Kashyyk could probably send out a wookie army though.
There's also the post Palpatine separatists..
The hutts have considerable forces at their disposal, the klatooinians as a race are warriors and in their service. Looking at the scale of the game, we are seeing more of a maybe 4-6 unit type fight, any of those factions could do that,. I was basing the threat of the tuskens on the cycler having almost twice the range of an e-series blastech weapon (granted twice as long to fire again as well) but they also have a nasty habit of ambushing and raiding. consider the dark eldar and eldar really dont have alot either, and the hutts control more space and worlds than the tau.
If the scale of the game is about twice the starter set, that seems pretty comparable to the Endor battle with the Ewoks. They canonically could fight on this scale, as silly as it was.
Cool plastic barricades....always good to have in a starter. This is definitely moving up on my watch list. If it does release until 2018 i've got plenty of time to cobble together some extra money. I'd still rather it was out in Dec in time for christmas but Jan or Feb could work...
And tbh i'd rather see imps and rebels get a couple expansions each before a third faction is a thought.
Oh Albertorius you are a treasure trove for us benighted ones.
Gosh that seems to make up a bit for the somewhat iffy Z-9.
Cost is 32 points, and Ion 1 puts an ion token on any vehicle wounded by the weapon. When a vehicle activates, it will lose an action per token (up to two) and then will discard all.
What is significance of Armor X. I know that a unit with Armor ignores regular hits. But that's a binary right? So what does it mean, for example, that AT-RT has Armor 4?
Manchu wrote: What is significance of Armor X. I know that a unit with Armor ignores regular hits. But that's a binary right? So what does it mean, for example, that AT-RT has Armor 4?
Well, that's an interesting one, actually.
For starters, ARMOR is a keyword, not a stat with a value, so a unit will not ever be ARMOR 4 (What it has is Resilience, I explained that one abovethread). A unit will either have the ARMOR keyword or it won't.
Now, the thing is that a unit with the ARMOR keyword cancels all hit results during the "Modify Attack Dice" step of an attack. So, the only way to actually damage an armored unit is rolling criticals.
And then there's IMPACT X, which when attacking a unit with the ARMOR keyword, allows you to change up to X hit results for criticals.
Ah sorry, I forgot that Resilience is the "break down" stat. I guess one implication is that while speeder bikes just blow up they also cannot be suppressed.
Man the MPL-57 damage/ion double trouble is making me wonder about the eventual AT-ST stats. I am thinking neither Rebel special weapon will seem super great playing out of the core box but the MPL-57 will be absolutely essential in 800 pt games.
Manchu wrote: Ah sorry, I forgot that Resilience is the "break down" stat. I guess one implication is that while speeder bikes just blow up they also cannot be suppressed.
Man the MPL-57 damage/ion double trouble is making me wonder about the eventual AT-ST stats. I am thinking neither Rebel special weapon will seem super great playing out of the core box but the MPL-57 will be absolutely essential in 800 pt games.
Yeah, Ion will probably be very important to deal with vehicles, but relying on MPL-57s for anti-armor work can make it very tedious, and they only have IMPACT 1. If an AT-ST has (spitballing here) 12 wounds you will either need a lot of those or you will be at it too long.
OTOH, you can also get heavier stuff for the AT-RT. For example, the AT-RT Laser cannon has range 2-4, rolls 1 red and 2 black dice when attacking, and has IMPACT 3. That means that a decent hit blasts off a speeder bike.
Depending on how you arm the AT-RT, you'll be able to use it for a variety of stuff.
Was speculating on FFG forum that with lack of Imperial armor in core set (and perhaps Wave 1), I would not be surprised if Reb players end up favoring 2x squads sans spec weapons over AT-RT w/laser canon. Although considering AT-RT is effectively mobile cover for itself, the Flamethrower upgrade may be useful - depends on the keyword (obscured) and cost (unknown). But two more 50 pt 5-man rebel trooper squad is pretty great if you don't have to face AT-ST. Plus, Imp can bring better Impact in Corps units anyhow. Maybe DLT-19 squads will prove more popular than finessing speeder bike flank maneuvers?
Very interested to see how it plays out. I think 12-wound AT-ST sounds expensive!
I'm not convinced there is going to be enough variety in the game, the other scum factions mentioned could potentially 'poll their resources' together for a very varied force but they are not exactly an army. How much variety will there be in the rebels? Will it be squads of mixed races or will the races have enough variety to have separate squads?
I would laugh if sandtroopers get a separate set of rules and/or models to normal stormtroopers.
I wouldn't be opposed to coastal defender stromtroopers getting a set though, even if their rules are 90% identical. Shoretroopers at least are quite visually different.
I suspect "slim" given the starter includes no less than Luke & Vader, but what are the prospects for getting more "realistic" commanders?
By which I mean, guys with guns & uniforms like their soldiers who's ingame strengths are based around commanding and enhancing the rest of your army rather than being famous laser-sword wielding beatsticks who can hurl whole squads around like packing peanuts.
I like Jedi and the other film heroes as much as the next bloke, but they don't tend to end up personally commanding every little skirmish, I'd rather have some more "street level" guys, preferably even a generic profile/gear set that lets you build your own officer.
thekingofkings wrote: on tatooine the tuskens very well could mount an effective force, most armies in star wars are local anyhow. The 2 factions are not a problem due to the variety within the factions. realistically 40k has imperial and other, and most of that other is terribad anyhow.
That's not a realistic comparison in the slightest. You're going to compare Empire/Rebels to the wealth of things that 40K does, even when a lot of them are Marines.
And what more factions could we get? A Scum faction and then... *crickets* Everything else suggested is just some variation on Scum.
I said it earlier, the scope of the Galactic Civil War does not befit a wargame (or even a skirmish game). The Rebels don't have anything unless you make it up.
One of the latter reports evens says "Snowspeeders were mentioned." Yeah, no gak they were. That's the only ground vehicle the Rebels have (in the movies, and without making anything up). At best you can get a U-Wing now thanks to Rogue One, but that's it.
Even in the minis we've seen so far one of the things the Rebels have is stolen from the prequel era.
I think Star Wars, as a whole, since being bought by Disney, has a prequel-era phobia. Everything is so solidly focused on the original trilogy and not daring to deviate from that (Ep 7 was the biggest Ep 4 love-letter ever written) that it's leaving a wealth of material in the dust. The Clone Wars were a war, a real war between fleets and armies with campaigns and battle lines. The Galactic Civil War was more of an insurgency. One is fit for a wargame/skirmish game. The other is not.
The Clone Wars TV series is frankly superb, and did a bang up job of picking up the ridiculous slack left by the trilogy. Certainly we see far more fighting, and the corruption of the Jedi order from peacekeepers to Generals.
Another concern I have? There's been Star Wars miniatures games before. They came, they went. Never had the chance to play them myself (no local stockists in those dim, distant days). For whatever reason, they didn't stick around all that long compared to GW and PP's offerings (hard to remember that Warmachine is knocking on now, having been around for what, around 17 years, maybe a bit less?) So that to me suggests the 'it's Star Wars, duh' may not be all it's cracked up to be in wargaming terms.
In general the reason Starwars games (and other licenced properties) tend not to stick around is cost
Unlike your own IP that you can put on a back burner with occasional releases to show it's not dead
something licenced is costing you money all the time (and may even have required releases built in to the contract)
so unless it's flying out of the shops it's not worth hanging on to
or the licence holder has a new film or whatever out and doesn't want something based on the old one around to distract from the new one so you've got to re-skin everything if you want to continue with it
The Clone Wars TV series is frankly superb, and did a bang up job of picking up the ridiculous slack left by the trilogy. Certainly we see far more fighting, and the corruption of the Jedi order from peacekeepers to Generals.
Another concern I have? There's been Star Wars miniatures games before. They came, they went. Never had the chance to play them myself (no local stockists in those dim, distant days). For whatever reason, they didn't stick around all that long compared to GW and PP's offerings (hard to remember that Warmachine is knocking on now, having been around for what, around 17 years, maybe a bit less?) So that to me suggests the 'it's Star Wars, duh' may not be all it's cracked up to be in wargaming terms.
The previous SW Minis games were part of the blind purchase pre-painted era and died along with the rest of that genre like Heroscape, DnD minis, Monsterpocalypse, Heroclix and the like when the cost to produce those kinds of models skyrocketed right around the same time as the housing crash.
To me, the Empire is like the Space Marines of Star Wars. They have everything and more of it.
Everyone else in the Star Wars universe is either a planetary or regional force. Like Ork mobs or Craftworlds.
There's no reason that most of the other "armies" couldn't exist and be along the same vein as the Rebels. Mostly troop based, very few "vehicle" type models.
Mandalorians, Tuskans, Hutts, Scum (which is a catch-all anyway), Wookies, I'm guessing any one of these:
Ha well don't take my word for it, this picture actually has all 14 stormtroopers after all, so it's correct. Some pics (like In Flight slides) only showed 12.
TheWaspinator wrote: If the scale of the game is about twice the starter set, that seems pretty comparable to the Endor battle with the Ewoks. They canonically could fight on this scale, as silly as it was.
The Ewoks were not alone. They also fought using a lot of traps, which has so far in every game I played been difficult to properly implement. Thinking though, I believe Rebel Alliance is going to end up taking little faction sub groups.
AT-RTs started off as a Clone Wars era vehicle and during the time of this game (or at least the starter) they were primarily an Empire vehicle. I would expect a bit of bleedover for sure with Rebels eventually getting speeders and Empire getting AT-RTs.
I would expect unique vehicles to each faction like a Century tank for Empire or TIE Mauler. I could see Rebels getting something like a T1-B or a AAC-1. Tanks are cool and the light vehicles are neat.. but also remember a decent part of SW lore features beast mounted soldiers as well. Seeing soldiers mounted on Dewbacks, TaunTauns, Brackasets, or Lava Fleas even.. It could be really neat. I would say that whatever form the scum faction takes, I would expect them to have Swoop gangers of some sort, Rancors, and maybe black market variants of some of the other vehicles.. plus the exotic gear a cartel or pack of mercenaries would be able to bring.
As to different types of troopers.. Dark Troops have historically been powerful but I would expect most of the variants to be more about the type of weapons or auxiliary gear.. Jump packs are a thing, as are E-webs and Rocket Launchers.. plus the various close combat type squads... while I would expect similar from the rebels, I would think they would have more of that kind of thing mixed into the units instead of being broken down by role like Empire might do.
It's all just speculation of course. I missed out on some of the more interesting releases for the pre-paint SW figures and getting an AT-AT. IF they release one for this game I expect golden bricks to be shat.
Yodhrin wrote: I suspect "slim" given the starter includes no less than Luke & Vader, but what are the prospects for getting more "realistic" commanders?
By which I mean, guys with guns & uniforms like their soldiers who's ingame strengths are based around commanding and enhancing the rest of your army rather than being famous laser-sword wielding beatsticks who can hurl whole squads around like packing peanuts.
I like Jedi and the other film heroes as much as the next bloke, but they don't tend to end up personally commanding every little skirmish, I'd rather have some more "street level" guys, preferably even a generic profile/gear set that lets you build your own officer.
Once you move away from the force users then most of the movie and new EU characters would fall into those groups. Its just that Luke and Vader are the franchises headliners.
There's plenty of named and unnamed characters to use as commanders. Remember that they can pull from the EU, although let's hope that they don't have to do that too much.
Basically every Imperial Assault unit will be put into SWL.
Looking through all the available info, as someone with a fair size collection of IA games and miniatures, I really don't see why I should buy this. It seems not that much different from the skirmish version of the IA.
You should also check out Sorastro's YouTube channel. He's been doing a series of videos on painting the IA figures. He also just did a painting video on his first SW:L figure (Luke Skywalker)..
Vertrucio wrote:There's plenty of named and unnamed characters to use as commanders. Remember that they can pull from the EU, although let's hope that they don't have to do that too much.
Basically every Imperial Assault unit will be put into SWL.
GoatboyBeta wrote:
Yodhrin wrote: I suspect "slim" given the starter includes no less than Luke & Vader, but what are the prospects for getting more "realistic" commanders?
By which I mean, guys with guns & uniforms like their soldiers who's ingame strengths are based around commanding and enhancing the rest of your army rather than being famous laser-sword wielding beatsticks who can hurl whole squads around like packing peanuts.
I like Jedi and the other film heroes as much as the next bloke, but they don't tend to end up personally commanding every little skirmish, I'd rather have some more "street level" guys, preferably even a generic profile/gear set that lets you build your own officer.
Once you move away from the force users then most of the movie and new EU characters would fall into those groups. Its just that Luke and Vader are the franchises headliners.
I would be genuinely surprised if any deep EU factions came into play. The official word was that EU was no longer considered canon after Disney bought it up and decided that the whole Thrawn thing wouldn't be nearly as exciting as rewatching the original trilogy all over again with a younger more PC main cast..
I would be genuinely surprised if any deep EU factions came into play. The official word was that EU was no longer considered canon after Disney bought it up and decided that the whole Thrawn thing wouldn't be nearly as exciting as rewatching the original trilogy all over again with a younger more PC main cast..
That's why I said the newEU So characters from Rebels or the Marvel comics, maybe even the new Imp commando from battlefront 2.
I want to be interested in this, I really do. But 'Star Wars' just isn't doing it for me. The new movies have been 50/50 (Rogue One was a blast, The Force Awakens was a Mary Sue Dumpster Fire).
If they used some Expanded Universe things, I'd be all over it. I don't want Stormtroopers and Rebels and Vader and Luke. For a few years, I was a SW figure collector and literally every release was a wave featuring a Luke, a Vader, an Anakin, and some variation of Storm Trooper. Every. Damned. Wave.
Sith troopers, Mandalorians, Old Republic Sith and Jedi, Jensaarai, Vong... if they made these things I'd be all over the game.
But Star Wars spaceship wars or whatever it was had supposedly been the top-selling or fastest-selling miniatures game for a hot minute, now the FLGS bin is full of used models from that game and I haven't seen someone playing it since January. And my FLGS is one of the few I've seen people playing Frostgrave and Gothic.
thekingofkings wrote: on tatooine the tuskens very well could mount an effective force, most armies in star wars are local anyhow. The 2 factions are not a problem due to the variety within the factions. realistically 40k has imperial and other, and most of that other is terribad anyhow.
That's not a realistic comparison in the slightest. You're going to compare Empire/Rebels to the wealth of things that 40K does, even when a lot of them are Marines.
And what more factions could we get? A Scum faction and then... *crickets* Everything else suggested is just some variation on Scum.
I said it earlier, the scope of the Galactic Civil War does not befit a wargame (or even a skirmish game). The Rebels don't have anything unless you make it up.
One of the latter reports evens says "Snowspeeders were mentioned." Yeah, no gak they were. That's the only ground vehicle the Rebels have (in the movies, and without making anything up). At best you can get a U-Wing now thanks to Rogue One, but that's it.
Even in the minis we've seen so far one of the things the Rebels have is stolen from the prequel era.
I think Star Wars, as a whole, since being bought by Disney, has a prequel-era phobia. Everything is so solidly focused on the original trilogy and not daring to deviate from that (Ep 7 was the biggest Ep 4 love-letter ever written) that it's leaving a wealth of material in the dust. The Clone Wars were a war, a real war between fleets and armies with campaigns and battle lines. The Galactic Civil War was more of an insurgency. One is fit for a wargame/skirmish game. The other is not.
The Rebel Alliance wasn't actually a single army. Rogue One did a good job of showing this. It's basically an amalgam of Militia and Resistance groups. The Legion starter even hints of the mixed forces by having Duros as part of the rebel unit.
I would be genuinely surprised if any deep EU factions came into play. The official word was that EU was no longer considered canon after Disney bought it up and decided that the whole Thrawn thing wouldn't be nearly as exciting as rewatching the original trilogy all over again with a younger more PC main cast..
Yeah. The Old EU is no longer canon. But the new EU, which includes Rebels and the novels, will and has provided some possibilities. Plus Disney has clearly shown the willingness to dig into the old non-canon EU for some stuff. Thrawn being one example. Plus FFG is clearly not shy about pulling in non-canon stuff, see about 80% of Xwing.
Mandelorians are still very much a thing thanks to the Rebels show. They occupy several planets, and though they pay lipservice to the Empire, each clan is very much it's own entity with it's own standing army.
It's still canon that the Hutts control a relatively large area of space. Jabba on Tatooine is actually more of an exception as he's got this little pocket on the opposite side of the galaxy from Narshadda and the really large area that the Hutts occupy around it. They have an entire race that works for them as soldiers called the Gank.
thekingofkings wrote: on tatooine the tuskens very well could mount an effective force, most armies in star wars are local anyhow. The 2 factions are not a problem due to the variety within the factions. realistically 40k has imperial and other, and most of that other is terribad anyhow.
That's not a realistic comparison in the slightest. You're going to compare Empire/Rebels to the wealth of things that 40K does, even when a lot of them are Marines.
And what more factions could we get? A Scum faction and then... *crickets* Everything else suggested is just some variation on Scum.
I said it earlier, the scope of the Galactic Civil War does not befit a wargame (or even a skirmish game). The Rebels don't have anything unless you make it up.
One of the latter reports evens says "Snowspeeders were mentioned." Yeah, no gak they were. That's the only ground vehicle the Rebels have (in the movies, and without making anything up). At best you can get a U-Wing now thanks to Rogue One, but that's it.
Even in the minis we've seen so far one of the things the Rebels have is stolen from the prequel era.
I think Star Wars, as a whole, since being bought by Disney, has a prequel-era phobia. Everything is so solidly focused on the original trilogy and not daring to deviate from that (Ep 7 was the biggest Ep 4 love-letter ever written) that it's leaving a wealth of material in the dust. The Clone Wars were a war, a real war between fleets and armies with campaigns and battle lines. The Galactic Civil War was more of an insurgency. One is fit for a wargame/skirmish game. The other is not.
The Rebel Alliance wasn't actually a single army. Rogue One did a good job of showing this. It's basically an amalgam of Militia and Resistance groups. The Legion starter even hints of the mixed forces by having Duros as part of the rebel unit.
It was up to that point. After Yavin it seems things got considerably more organised.
After all, The Emperor tipped his hand with the destruction of Alderaan, then promptly lost his main weapon of fear. After that, there was no hiding his agenda.
Digclaw wrote: The Rebel Alliance wasn't actually a single army. Rogue One did a good job of showing this. It's basically an amalgam of Militia and Resistance groups. The Legion starter even hints of the mixed forces by having Duros as part of the rebel unit.
I'm aware of that, but I'd argue that the Rebel Alliance wasn't even an army. Militia, partisans, guerillas, commandos... but an army? No.
Others have mentioned the Rebels becoming more organised after the destruction of the Death Star, and that is true, but consider Hoth and Endor.
Hoth was their army and it was... Snowspeeders! Endor was their fleet. All of it I'm guessing. A mixed collection of ships and converted freighters.
Having one force being an armed to the teeth military and the other be a 'rag-tag' group of nobodies with only the hardware they've stolen or built in secret doesn't make for the greatest 'war' game, especially when the lore for the universe includes an actual war between two massive and distinct forces.
It's why I don't want to buy their Rebellion game. Sure it's based on one of my fav PC games of all time, but both myself and a friend of mine looked at it and said the same thing: But I don't want to play the Rebels!
I never played the Rebels in Rebellion. It was boring, and all the ships were made up for that game. Same thing happened again in Galactic Battlegrounds and Empire at War.
X-Wing works because you're focusing on the one area where the Rebels had tons of stuff, plus they're pulling from the old EU to spice it up (and the third faction covers anything the Empire and Rebels don't hit). And they just added the Assault Gunboat, which I've been waiting for since the game was announced... but that's a side issue...
Some notes (I have contacts "on the inside", also was at the In-flight report):
-FFG has a total license to Star Wars, including prequel and non-canon content. While FFG takes some direction from Disney when it comes to pushing merchandise related to the latest film, there is nothing stopping the from pursuing prequel era content if they choose, likewise they have a free hand to use Legends/non-canon content, as Lucasfilm does not consider FFGs product lines to be reflective of canon. In other words, its FFG's own design studio that is limiting the influence of prequel content in its product lines. While I'm at it, the notion that Disney/Lucasfilm is anti-prequel is entirely incorrect. While it has not been a major focus, theres actually been a fair amount of prequel era stuff released by way of comics and marvels. In fact, since the Disney buyout there has been more prequel era content released than there has been sequel era (although I would have to admit that a major motion film like TFA, and soon TLJ, grossly outweigh the importance of novels, etc.).
-FFG essentially went out of its way to limit the ability for IA minis to be compatible with Legions. The squad sizes for units in Legions vary from the packaging of equivalent IA models (meaning you would end up with extra minis/need to buy multiple IA packs to get a single squad of Legion minis in some instances), the size difference between minis is quite large in some instances, and by going with IA minis you would have to find another means to acquire the tokens and cards needed to use them. Additionally, the difference in base size will lead to some minor play issues, and when it comes to larger models (i.e. anything larger than a standard infantry piece), the IA minis are essentially entirely unusable as they lack the notch in their bases required to make use of the Legions movement tool. Additionally, FFG will not be allowing IA minis (nor other manufacturers miniatures) to be used in their organized play events for Legions.
-Legions will be strictly kept in the GCW era (at least for the forseeable future). Dont expect Prequel or Sequel content anytime soon. Additional factions don't seem likely either as they want to focus on the fight between the Empire and Rebel Alliance, though we may see a sort of "sub-faction" situation arise where its possible to make a Wookie army or a Mandalorian force out of the options released for the Rebels/Empire.
-When asked about the possibility of an AT-AT and similar large models being released for Legions, the response from the head of FFG's design studio was "Well, that sure would be pretty cool, wouldn't it?" Followed by a long pause and a large gak eating grin. I would understand that to mean that AT-AT's are all but confirmed.
-When asked about the possibility of an AT-AT and similar large models being released for Legions, the response from the head of FFG's design studio was "Well, that sure would be pretty cool, wouldn't it?" Followed by a long pause and a large gak eating grin. I would understand that to mean that AT-AT's are all but confirmed.
Thats how it begins. You'll end with Ewoks fighting agains't the Death Star with rocks, and then how you balance that!
IA is a board game, Legion is a tabletop miniature wargame. It makes sense they would make new and better/more detailed models because the models are a lot more key than the more gamepiece style of IA. The butthurt of people complaining they aren't cross compatible is just amusing. Brand new game=new models not a big surprise. X wing and Armada also are not compatible. Though with all of these games combined imagine if a campaign book came out that allowed you to fight over planets/control systems and do ground/space battles akin of empire at war campaigns but in tabletop form.
I personally have no interest in any prequel related stuff. And seeing as how we're coming up on the second movie of a new modern trilogy with the resistance vs FO. I kind of would like to see that era get a little more attention in a while after this game is established. Though I know they'd rather tug on everyones nostalgia with the GCW first.
I'll be very interested in this as soon as it's viable to have an all Ewok army. I want to kick some Stormtrooper butt with sticks and rocks. I'll smash Vader with a log. My army will be led by The Golden One himself, C-3PO.
Thargrim wrote: IA is a board game, Legion is a tabletop miniature wargame. It makes sense they would make new and better/more detailed models because the models are a lot more key than the more gamepiece style of IA. The butthurt of people complaining they aren't cross compatible is just amusing. Brand new game=new models not a big surprise. X wing and Armada also are not compatible.
Your counterpoint is that X-wing and Armada are not scale compatible? Do you realize that your example would mean that the basic capital ships would be roughly 4ft-6ft long if they were remotely to scale? And that's with the Tantive IV sliding scale extended further. It's a horrible example and has nothing to do with the 20% increase shown here.
As for Legion and IA, it was reasonable to hope that they'd be compatible scale wise but it's not surprising that FFG (especially post-Asmodee FFG that's trying to emulate 1990's GW) decided against it. In their (admittedly tepid) defense, the license is likely quite expensive and I do understand the need to recoup those costs. That said... it's IMO a poke in the eye to consumers and definitely at their expense.
It actually makes no sense for IA and Legion to be the same scale. They are unrelated product lines. Plus even if they were, people would still complain ("why are they making the same characters in the same scale, so greedy!") - truth is, there is no pleasing everyone.
There isn't necessarily a consistent IA scale anyhow. But there is nothing to stop you from using Legion models in IA.
Manchu wrote: TBH I would love a Phantom Menace Battle of Naboo small-scale wargame. And yea I think TPM is total gak.
The prequels had some really great ground wars. The original trilogy is still king IMO for the space battles.. but I hated the designs for almost everything the droids used in space.. and the fighter scenes in the prequels had a Fast and Furious vibe to me.. While not getting Clone Wars era content in the form of scenarios or setting.. we already see the AT-RT staring us in the face and that's a CW era thing.. so getting an AT-TE or some of that other stuff doesn't strike me as out of the question. Especially if they're hurting for releases.
The rebels not being an army.. is like saying the Revolutionary War wasn't fought by an American Army. Having a decentralized force is not the same as not having one though I will concede that the movies and books didn't do the best job addressing the structure of that organization. I will say that there was SOME documented organization and that can be found here:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rebel_command_insignia
If you notice, they go so far as to delineate between "branches" of the Alliance much like the US military is divided into various branches.
Further, they have intelligence assets that relay information, including but not limited to Death Star plans back to their version of CENTCOM resulting in various instances throughout the films (all of them) in military interdiction, planetary strikes, and large scale assaults spanning an armada and ground forces.
One major reason the Rebel Alliance (many armies and armadas joined together similar to the Allies or Axis in either WW) always seem so scattered and under-equipped, is because they were getting their asses kicked. The Empire kept finding their bases (Dantoine, Hoth, Yavin IV). The Rebellion did posses vehicles that never appeared in the movies but in the stories central to the films, those locations were under siege and in most cases were set up as makeshift bases. As soon as they would set up shop, the big bad wolf would come and blow the whole thing down. Keep in mind too that the idea of a Rebellion started basically in Episode 3. Luke Skywalker was 19 when Ep IV happened. So in less than 20 years they've mobilized an Armada and established a roving command. Ep VII is 30 years after Ep VI and we really don't actually know much about the Rebellion's forces other than they can respond to intel REALLY fast with air support. We haven't really seen a major ground battle at this point but other sources (books games etc) have explained very clearly that the Rebels do in fact have heavy armor at their disposal. Logistically, an armored division is a lot more difficult to maintain and move, so in the early running battles, there wasn't room for any of that.
Manchu wrote: It actually makes no sense for IA and Legion to be the same scale. They are unrelated product lines. Plus even if they were, people would still complain ("why are they making the same characters in the same scale, so greedy!") - truth is, there is no pleasing everyone.
There isn't necessarily a consistent IA scale anyhow. But there is nothing to stop you from using Legion models in IA.
Unrelated product lines? From the same company, both minis-centric to be played on the tabletop, from the same license? I suppose you think that GW should have made Space Hulk at 40mm scale? While there are arguments to be made both for and against keeping the same scale, I think it's incredibly inaccurate to say that it makes "no sense". I'd agree with you if it were designed and sold as a truly bigger scope game like Halo Ground War, DZC, or Epic but to come out with a board game with wargame sized minis and then two years later make a size incompatible wargame is plain and simple done at their consumers' expense and motivated only by dollar signs.
FFG is not GW. GW sells minis. The rules they publish are in service to that. By contrast, FFG sells games. Some of those games have miniatures among their various components, including proprietary dice, cards, tokens, and measurement tools. It doesn't matter that IA and Legion both have miniatures as components; you need to look at the whole picture. Even if they were the same size, simply having IA miniatures wouldn't be enough to play Legion.
GW sells minis and not games? So WHFB/SIgmar/40k etc. are so Popular because people just like buying and painting minis, and not actually playing the game? Yes, there are people who buy them to collect, but most of people buy it to actually play the game. Mostly for wargame, some for boardgames(which are not half as bad), but still, for a 'game' primary, not just minis.
Manchu wrote: It actually makes no sense for IA and Legion to be the same scale. They are unrelated product lines.
But having them in the same scale would allow people to buy one for the other and vice versa. You'd open up a new opportunity for sale. Those who had one might want to try the other. How is that a bad thing?
Plus someone with a lot of existing stuff sees this new game, figures he's got a ton of it already, so why not take the further plunge?
Manchu wrote: Plus even if they were, people would still complain ("why are they making the same characters in the same scale, so greedy!") - truth is, there is no pleasing everyone.
I think that's a really lame excuse. And I think the cries of "Wait, I can use my existing minis with this new game? Awesome!" would far outweigh any nonsensical negativity.
HBMC, you missed the issue; no matter the relative scale, the product lines are separate. If you want to play Legion, you will need to buy Legion because the miniatures are just part of the components of Legion.
The two games are certainly separate, but I'd say that changing the scale significantly between them (if they have finally done so: given that what AFAIK the only things we've seen are resin masters and that PVC seems to have significant shrinkage, that's not really a 100% fact right now) is kind of a dick move from FFG, even if they didn't need to keep the scale consistent.
tl/dr:
- Could they have kept the scale the same? Yes, they could have.
- Did they have to keep the scale the same? No, the two game lines are different, and the components (cards, tokens and stuff) will be different too.
- Is the scale change confirmed? Well, not completely, but seems to be right now.
Nah, it's entirely academic. The larger models cannot be cross-compatible because the size/style of the bases must meet certain requirement in each of the two games. But the infantry figs are practically cross-compatible. There is nothing to keep anyone from using any Legion figures they buy as alternate sculpts in IA - if you are a stickler for scale, you already have problems just within the existing IA product line. Similarly, the scale and base size differences between IA and Legion infantry figs are small enough to pose no issues in friendly games of Legion. This is honestly smoke and noise.
It isn't just a scale change but a move from True Scale to Heroic proportions. I much prefer the True Scale models from Imperial Assault than the Heroic Legion models but I know that a lot of people prefer Heroic.
(I know that Imperial Assault did release a few Heroic models based upon characters from Star Wars Rebels to mimick the TVs shows animated style and they look really out of place compared to the rest of the range.)
I am surprised to hear IA figs described as truescale. But no need to get hung up on a term, some people will prefer aspects of the IA figs and some will prefer aspects of the Legion figs. From what we have seen at GenCon, the Legion figs srike me as far more acceptable in terms of miniatures gaming, as opposed to board gaming.
Digclaw wrote: The Rebel Alliance wasn't actually a single army. Rogue One did a good job of showing this. It's basically an amalgam of Militia and Resistance groups. The Legion starter even hints of the mixed forces by having Duros as part of the rebel unit.
I'm aware of that, but I'd argue that the Rebel Alliance wasn't even an army. Militia, partisans, guerillas, commandos... but an army? No.
Others have mentioned the Rebels becoming more organised after the destruction of the Death Star, and that is true, but consider Hoth and Endor.
Hoth was their army and it was... Snowspeeders! Endor was their fleet. All of it I'm guessing. A mixed collection of ships and converted freighters.
Having one force being an armed to the teeth military and the other be a 'rag-tag' group of nobodies with only the hardware they've stolen or built in secret doesn't make for the greatest 'war' game, especially when the lore for the universe includes an actual war between two massive and distinct forces.
You seem to be forgetting that this is a small scale skirmish game. It's not the entire Galactic Empire vs the Rebel Alliance. It's 12-30 soldiers and 1-3 vehicles. Thats tiny. At that scale the Empire's numerical superiority and greater resources doesn't matter at all. Almost all the on the ground combat we saw in the original Trilogy, Rogue One and The Force Awakens was at this scale or smaller (Hoth being the one exception).
There's lots of stuff this game can dip into. Ewoks and Tusken Raiders are actually perfectly suited for this scale. Mandolorians are active and working for both sides during this time frame. Saw Gerrara is already dead, but why not include him and his rebel group? Twi'lek have their own insurgent forces complete with cavalry and named characters. Various canon Star Wars video games have introduced tons of GCW era troops and vehicles for both the Rebeliion and the Empire that FFG can likely make use of if they want to.
I think there are plenty of options for this kind of a small scale skirmish game.
Manchu wrote: HBMC, you missed the issue; no matter the relative scale, the product lines are separate. If you want to play Legion, you will need to buy Legion because the miniatures are just part of the components of Legion.
I don't see why that matters at all.
Yeah, I get that if you were to buy an Imperial Assault box of Storm Troopers (or whatever) you'd have cards that don't work with Legion - fair enough - but you'd have more miniatures. And as I said, for those who already have IA stuff it means they have a leg up on the game already (were it the same scale).
How does the product lines being separate make any difference?
Manchu wrote: The larger models cannot be cross-compatible because the size/style of the bases must meet certain requirement in each of the two games.
Again that's a lousy excuse, and a false dilemma if ever I've seen one. They didn't need to make the bases different for Legion at all.
It matters a great deal. People who want to play Legion will want to buy Legion products, not IA products, and vice versa. They don't just want the minis but, for each game, the rest of the corresponding components. For the purposes of each game, "extra minis" are irrelevant. Of what use would having a bunch of mono-pose IA stormtroopers, for example, be to playing Legion? They would be no use to "filling out" squads (the Legion expansions will likely come with the max number of figs and options available to a given squad). And if you just want to use them as proxies in friendly games, that is already possible.
Large model bases in IA are meant to correspond to how much space the model takes up in a grid-based game. Legion is not grid-based; it uses free form movement. The large model bases therefore are notched to accomodate using the measurement tool. Furthermore, the larger bases are quartered to show weapons arcs. Thee is no "false dilemma" here.
It does seem a slap in the face to those who've collected IA and were hoping for more of an expansion to play star wars mass combat (or at least something closer to a wargame) with their existing range. That Legion figures are only slightly different but still distinct is a bit galling.
Still, FFG aren't a figures company and don't make games to use with said toy soldiers - they make games with Star Wars shaped components. And maybe IA isn't selling well enough that FFG don't feel the need to worry about any complaints from that quarter...
Manchu wrote: It matters a great deal. People who want to play Legion will want to buy Legion products, not IA products, and vice versa. They don't just want the minis but, for each game, the rest of the corresponding components. For the purposes of each game, "extra minis" are irrelevant. Of what use would having a bunch of mono-pose IA stormtroopers, for example, be to playing Legion? They would be no use to "filling out" squads (the Legion expansions will likely come with the max number of figs and options available to a given squad). And if you just want to use them as proxies in friendly games, that is already possible.
Large model bases in IA are meant to correspond to how much space the model takes up in a grid-based game. Legion is not grid-based; it uses free form movement. The large model bases therefore are notched to accomodate using the measurement tool. Furthermore, the larger bases are quartered to show weapons arcs. Thee is no "false dilemma" here.
As a note, I don't own IA, and wont be buying legion as after demoing it at gencon, I know first hand how terrible the game is/will be.
At the end of the day, it is a slap in the face to anyone who has IA. Half of the game of IA itself is a skirmish game. You have points...upgrades...build your force. You just move on a grid. So they make the game gridless. You still roll for your damage, you roll for surges, you roll defense. You just get old GW whipping measure sticks to use and Armada movement tools. BUT need new figures...cause...well, just because.
It is a plain and simple money grab from FFG. (Which anyone whos played FFG shouldn't be surprised by). Just a new product to sell you more special dice you've seen 100 times, with special rulers you've seen 100 times.
Behavior like this is why its a common thought that FFG is becoming like old GW. Eventually, their players will grow a pair and demand better from them then its crap. Simple fact, that if the scale was the same, Legions would have a massively larger player base, as it would just make sense for IA players to buy into legions.
Manchu wrote: It matters a great deal. People who want to play Legion will want to buy Legion products, not IA products, and vice versa. They don't just want the minis but, for each game, the rest of the corresponding components. For the purposes of each game, "extra minis" are irrelevant. Of what use would having a bunch of mono-pose IA stormtroopers, for example, be to playing Legion? They would be no use to "filling out" squads (the Legion expansions will likely come with the max number of figs and options available to a given squad). And if you just want to use them as proxies in friendly games, that is already possible.
Large model bases in IA are meant to correspond to how much space the model takes up in a grid-based game. Legion is not grid-based; it uses free form movement. The large model bases therefore are notched to accomodate using the measurement tool. Furthermore, the larger bases are quartered to show weapons arcs. Thee is no "false dilemma" here.
As a note, I don't own IA, and wont be buying legion as after demoing it at gencon, I know first hand how terrible the game is/will be.
At the end of the day, it is a slap in the face to anyone who has IA. Half of the game of IA itself is a skirmish game. You have points...upgrades...build your force. You just move on a grid. So they make the game gridless. You still roll for your damage, you roll for surges, you roll defense. You just get old GW whipping measure sticks to use and Armada movement tools. BUT need new figures...cause...well, just because.
It is a plain and simple money grab from FFG. (Which anyone whos played FFG shouldn't be surprised by). Just a new product to sell you more special dice you've seen 100 times, with special rulers you've seen 100 times.
Behavior like this is why its a common thought that FFG is becoming like old GW. Eventually, their players will grow a pair and demand better from them then its crap. Simple fact, that if the scale was the same, Legions would have a massively larger player base, as it would just make sense for IA players to buy into legions.
Can you give details on why the game is going to be horrible?
Manchu wrote: It matters a great deal. People who want to play Legion will want to buy Legion products, not IA products, and vice versa. They don't just want the minis but, for each game, the rest of the corresponding components. For the purposes of each game, "extra minis" are irrelevant. Of what use would having a bunch of mono-pose IA stormtroopers, for example, be to playing Legion? They would be no use to "filling out" squads (the Legion expansions will likely come with the max number of figs and options available to a given squad). And if you just want to use them as proxies in friendly games, that is already possible.
Large model bases in IA are meant to correspond to how much space the model takes up in a grid-based game. Legion is not grid-based; it uses free form movement. The large model bases therefore are notched to accomodate using the measurement tool. Furthermore, the larger bases are quartered to show weapons arcs. Thee is no "false dilemma" here.
As a note, I don't own IA, and wont be buying legion as after demoing it at gencon, I know first hand how terrible the game is/will be.
At the end of the day, it is a slap in the face to anyone who has IA. Half of the game of IA itself is a skirmish game. You have points...upgrades...build your force. You just move on a grid. So they make the game gridless. You still roll for your damage, you roll for surges, you roll defense. You just get old GW whipping measure sticks to use and Armada movement tools. BUT need new figures...cause...well, just because.
It is a plain and simple money grab from FFG. (Which anyone whos played FFG shouldn't be surprised by). Just a new product to sell you more special dice you've seen 100 times, with special rulers you've seen 100 times.
Behavior like this is why its a common thought that FFG is becoming like old GW. Eventually, their players will grow a pair and demand better from them then its crap. Simple fact, that if the scale was the same, Legions would have a massively larger player base, as it would just make sense for IA players to buy into legions.
Can you give details on why the game is going to be horrible?
Anyone whose played a FFG minis type game has played Legions. There isn't anything new here. Most games have been done in some sense before, but this is the same core mechanics as any of their other games, just large SW minis. More D8s with hits/crits/surges, more defense dice with shields, bendy movement template in armada. Measuring sticks that have been around since GWs first starter boxes. 2 Actions, move aim defense, shoot, melee. Its all very basic. Not a lot of strategy involved in it. A simplistic game. Their audience is kids/FFG fanboys/SW fanboys. I know it will sell a lot because "star wars". As for miniature games go, its bottom of the barrel. A very unimaginative game from FFG.
Vorian wrote: I don't really see how it's a money grab. Releasing it doesn't stop people using IA figures for exactly the game they were purchased for.
They are just releasing another game that people may or may not want. As game companies are wont to do.
I never said it stopped people from using them? It does stop people from using them in tourneys that play. And some people may not let you use them at your FLGS. What I said was if they made them the same scale, it would only help their game out
Digclaw wrote: The Rebel Alliance wasn't actually a single army. Rogue One did a good job of showing this. It's basically an amalgam of Militia and Resistance groups. The Legion starter even hints of the mixed forces by having Duros as part of the rebel unit.
I'm aware of that, but I'd argue that the Rebel Alliance wasn't even an army. Militia, partisans, guerillas, commandos... but an army? No.
Others have mentioned the Rebels becoming more organised after the destruction of the Death Star, and that is true, but consider Hoth and Endor.
Hoth was their army and it was... Snowspeeders! Endor was their fleet. All of it I'm guessing. A mixed collection of ships and converted freighters.
Having one force being an armed to the teeth military and the other be a 'rag-tag' group of nobodies with only the hardware they've stolen or built in secret doesn't make for the greatest 'war' game, especially when the lore for the universe includes an actual war between two massive and distinct forces.
It's why I don't want to buy their Rebellion game. Sure it's based on one of my fav PC games of all time, but both myself and a friend of mine looked at it and said the same thing: But I don't want to play the Rebels!
I never played the Rebels in Rebellion. It was boring, and all the ships were made up for that game. Same thing happened again in Galactic Battlegrounds and Empire at War.
X-Wing works because you're focusing on the one area where the Rebels had tons of stuff, plus they're pulling from the old EU to spice it up (and the third faction covers anything the Empire and Rebels don't hit). And they just added the Assault Gunboat, which I've been waiting for since the game was announced... but that's a side issue...
A couple of points - Hoth was one army shorn of most of its equipment due to the conditions. Endor was their main fleet but not everything they had just everything they coud lay hands on at short notice. Hell in the Rebels TV show(which is canon) the Rebellion loses more ships and soldiers than are shown in the whole original trilogy of films and there's still a couple of seasons to go until we hit Rogue One/ANH. Crikey even Rogue One lost them almost a whole fleet over Scarif and I didn't see many if any of Blue Squadron survive that fight. The fact is the original films depicted a handful of mostly covert/commando actions and a couple of pivotal fleet actions, but if you adopt such a literal view of "screen canon" as to say "nope, that was it, that was the whole rebellion, just what we saw on-screen in the OT and nothing else anywhere ever" then the films become completely nonsensical because guerillas or otherwise what's shown in the OT couldn't ever beat the Empire, they couldn't even have survived long enough to strike Scarif let alone attempt the action over Endor. The Rebellion being bigger isn't just implied, it's necessary for the OT to make any sense.
Also, you seem to have a pretty inconsistent metric for judging what is and isn't acceptable - all that stuff they're "pulling from the EU" to "spice up" X-Wing is, err, "made up" as well. Why are things "made up" for novels or comics more valid parts of the EU than things "made up" for videogames? And if "VGEU" stuff isn't as valid for you, does that mean you don't use the Scum ships that originated in videogames?
I'm not getting at you for disliking any specific thing, it just seems like you've drawn a pretty arbitrary line through old-EU material and are criticising FFG for using stuff from the wrong side of it without really any logic to support the criticism.
On the subject of kit and equipment owned/ used by both the Alliance and the Empire, I always liked the work done by West End Games in the sourcebooks for the roleplaying game.
Most of the kit featured in those books came from the designer's access to Lucasfilm archives.
Ralph MacQuarrie's early concept paintings for ESB featured Juggernauts. They finally became AT-ATs in the movie but West End gave them to the Empire and they finally turned up in Revenge of the Sith on Kashykk.
If the new games sticks to those different speeders, tanks and so on, I consider it to not be 'made up' but equipment that always existed, it just never made it into the films.
Manchu wrote: It matters a great deal. People who want to play Legion will want to buy Legion products, not IA products, and vice versa. They don't just want the minis but, for each game, the rest of the corresponding components. For the purposes of each game, "extra minis" are irrelevant. Of what use would having a bunch of mono-pose IA stormtroopers, for example, be to playing Legion? They would be no use to "filling out" squads (the Legion expansions will likely come with the max number of figs and options available to a given squad). And if you just want to use them as proxies in friendly games, that is already possible.
Large model bases in IA are meant to correspond to how much space the model takes up in a grid-based game. Legion is not grid-based; it uses free form movement. The large model bases therefore are notched to accomodate using the measurement tool. Furthermore, the larger bases are quartered to show weapons arcs. Thee is no "false dilemma" here.
As a note, I don't own IA, and wont be buying legion as after demoing it at gencon, I know first hand how terrible the game is/will be.
At the end of the day, it is a slap in the face to anyone who has IA. Half of the game of IA itself is a skirmish game. You have points...upgrades...build your force. You just move on a grid. So they make the game gridless. You still roll for your damage, you roll for surges, you roll defense. You just get old GW whipping measure sticks to use and Armada movement tools. BUT need new figures...cause...well, just because.
It is a plain and simple money grab from FFG. (Which anyone whos played FFG shouldn't be surprised by). Just a new product to sell you more special dice you've seen 100 times, with special rulers you've seen 100 times.
Behavior like this is why its a common thought that FFG is becoming like old GW. Eventually, their players will grow a pair and demand better from them then its crap. Simple fact, that if the scale was the same, Legions would have a massively larger player base, as it would just make sense for IA players to buy into legions.
Can you give details on why the game is going to be horrible?
Anyone whose played a FFG minis type game has played Legions. There isn't anything new here. Most games have been done in some sense before, but this is the same core mechanics as any of their other games, just large SW minis. More D8s with hits/crits/surges, more defense dice with shields, bendy movement template in armada. Measuring sticks that have been around since GWs first starter boxes. 2 Actions, move aim defense, shoot, melee. Its all very basic. Not a lot of strategy involved in it. A simplistic game. Their audience is kids/FFG fanboys/SW fanboys. I know it will sell a lot because "star wars". As for miniature games go, its bottom of the barrel. A very unimaginative game from FFG.
Vorian wrote: I don't really see how it's a money grab. Releasing it doesn't stop people using IA figures for exactly the game they were purchased for.
They are just releasing another game that people may or may not want. As game companies are wont to do.
I never said it stopped people from using them? It does stop people from using them in tourneys that play. And some people may not let you use them at your FLGS. What I said was if they made them the same scale, it would only help their game out
No, I mean it doesn't stop people using their stuff for what they actually bought it for.
They have lost nothing, they bought their game knowing what it was and nothing stops them still playing their game.
The existence of a different game is something completely separate.
Considering that every GW game is based on the same conceits and have a similar die structure, the argument that Legion is just another FFG game is silly when most of GW is just another GW game. Sure, this uses a lot of FFG tried and true mechanics, but that's a positive overall and they do enough to add more mechanics.
There a difference of degrees a bit in this, but some here are trying too hard to dislike something. But that's okay, this is a nostalgia driven market and people have strong opinions on their particular brand of nostalgia.
One thing people are forgetting is that these demo games are not using the full rules. They're using a small set of upgrades, and they aren't even using the new suppression mechanic that's already built into the cards. You can see the yellow symbol and it's mentioned by demo givers.
Manchu wrote: It matters a great deal. People who want to play Legion will want to buy Legion products, not IA products, and vice versa. They don't just want the minis but, for each game, the rest of the corresponding components. For the purposes of each game, "extra minis" are irrelevant. Of what use would having a bunch of mono-pose IA stormtroopers, for example, be to playing Legion? They would be no use to "filling out" squads (the Legion expansions will likely come with the max number of figs and options available to a given squad). And if you just want to use them as proxies in friendly games, that is already possible.
Large model bases in IA are meant to correspond to how much space the model takes up in a grid-based game. Legion is not grid-based; it uses free form movement. The large model bases therefore are notched to accomodate using the measurement tool. Furthermore, the larger bases are quartered to show weapons arcs. Thee is no "false dilemma" here.
As a note, I don't own IA, and wont be buying legion as after demoing it at gencon, I know first hand how terrible the game is/will be.
At the end of the day, it is a slap in the face to anyone who has IA. Half of the game of IA itself is a skirmish game. You have points...upgrades...build your force. You just move on a grid. So they make the game gridless. You still roll for your damage, you roll for surges, you roll defense. You just get old GW whipping measure sticks to use and Armada movement tools. BUT need new figures...cause...well, just because.
It is a plain and simple money grab from FFG. (Which anyone whos played FFG shouldn't be surprised by). Just a new product to sell you more special dice you've seen 100 times, with special rulers you've seen 100 times.
Behavior like this is why its a common thought that FFG is becoming like old GW. Eventually, their players will grow a pair and demand better from them then its crap. Simple fact, that if the scale was the same, Legions would have a massively larger player base, as it would just make sense for IA players to buy into legions.
Can you give details on why the game is going to be horrible?
The game will likely be fine, but it's frustrating to have the release schedule basically reset. Great, now we get to look forward to a slow drip of characters that already exist in IA. Want Wedge, Admiral piett, 4-LOM/Zuckuss, Dr. Aphra, the rest of Phoenix Squad? Have fun waiting for 2020. FFG wants to resell you a 15% larger ANH Luke/Han/Leia first. BTW, have fun with your terrain being too small!
If they'd released Legion expansion decks/conversion bases to let you use your IA collection they wouldn't have to start the product line from square one again. THAT's what is particularly frustrating to me. It's like if the PS5 came out, and the initial 50 releases were mostly just PS 4 games we already had. In other words, there was potential but they threw it out for Malibu Stacy with a new hat.
I'll just say.. my son has IA and very few additional purchases from that line. If it can work in this setting.. hey.. cool.. I'm not counting on that in any capacity though.. nor am I bitter that the items aren't immediately able to be used.
IMO.. it's like being upset that Magic the Gathering has cards that you can't use because reasons.. or that you can't take a Bishop or a Queen in a game of checkers.. even though they're designed for the same board. I've sat through so many iterations of 40k where models were just simply not supported anymore that I'm literally numb to this sort of criticism.
Not impressed if the scale change is true. In the past if you bought Dust Tactics models you could use them in Dust Warfare, going with the same scale would encourage people who play IA to pick up Legions.
IMO.. it's like being upset that Magic the Gathering has cards that you can't use because reasons..
It's more like if they decided to make Magic cards square going forward to screw you out of using your collection, then reprinted the basic set to make you buy the same crap all over, rather than develop new cards (but, like if cards didnt have collector value and were all still in print). People don't like blatant cash grabs and double dipping. When a company gets known for doing that, it devalues their product, since it erodes confidence a purchase will be useful in the long term. See the LOTR bare bones DVD release before the extended editions everyone wanted anyways.
To me it says they don't have confidence in anything but the basic main characters being big sellers, so want to sell slight variations of the same Luke/Leia/Vaders to new customers rather than expand the line's depth. They'll get away with it, cuz Star Wars, but that doesnt make it also kind of cruddy.
It generally looks like IA's skirmish mode just never really took off so they're rebranding it and bumping up the models a bit to give it focus.
It looks interesting enough, but at the moment the primary hook seems to be that its Star Wars as opposed to a game mechanic that helps it stand out from the crowd. I actually really like the potential of Descent's dice system in a tabletop game but I'd be far more excited if there was a resource or activation mechanic that made it seem more unique from a gameplay perspective.
I think what gets me very interested is it appears to take the mechanics I like out of Bolt action (activation, and suppression)....and then they made it Star Wars.
I got to see this first hand at Gen Con and I'm completely sold. A few random thoughts...
1. Infantry models have no facing. Larger based models have both facing and firing arcs. An Imperial Speeder Bike, for example, is equipped with some sort of blaster cannon and a pistol. The pistol can be fired in any direction. The cannon can only be fired from the front arc. I like this. It's like 7th Edition and older 40k, but cleaner with clearly defined facings and firing arcs for all 'vehicles'.
2. Units have upgrade slots. A Stormtrooper unit starts with 4 models equipped with basic E-11 Blasters. The unit has 4 different upgrade slots. These upgrade slots can be used to either adds models or improve the effectiveness of the existing models. In the core box, we know three of the upgrades can simultaneously be used to add a basic dude, a heavy blaster dude and a rocket launcher dude, resulting in a 7 man squad. This is SO much easier than the current 40k list building. Grab a unit card and then add upgrade cards to match the upgrade icons on the unit card. Add up the points.
3. The Rebel side of the core box has 16 models. The Imperial side has 17 models. We know that this is roughly half of a "standard" army. In other words, a full sized army will likely be somewhere in the neighborhood of 30-40 models. This is a relatively small model count skirmish game. It's definitely not meant to represent large scale battles. It also means that ~$180 will get you two more or less full sized armies.
4. Standard games will be played on a 6'x3' board, exactly like Runewars and Armada. Much like Runewars and Armada, most of the action will probably take place on a 3'x3' portion of the larger map.
5. There will be an official Organized Play system, just as with every other FFG game. There will be a well defined set of tournament rules. You'll be able to realistically expect to walk into a Store Championship anywhere in the US and not have to worry about local house rules since official FFG events don't allow house rules.
6. There will almost certainly be a third Scum (think Boba Fett/Jabba/etc) faction at some point. X-Wing is one of the most commercially successful tabletop games and it has only three factions. Armada is one of the most commercially successful tabletop game and it has only two factions. Two for now and probably a third later will be enough.
7. It's definitely not a child's game. The mechanics are similar to X-Wing and Armada in the sense that you have movement sticks and a command phase. The Legion command system adds a layer of complexity to the game that doesn't exist in 40k. Do I use this command this turn or wait until later? Each command is a single use and you have 7 to use over the course of 6 turns. There are a lot of armies in 40k where the player is sort of on auto-pilot. Ork horde? Run forward, charge as soon as you can. Spammed flyers? Fly around and take out the heavy weapons first. I don't think you'll see this sort of no brainer, auto-pilot list in Legion. Those sorts of lists don't really exist in X-Wing, Armada or Runewars.
8. Speaking of Runewars, this is not Runewars. Runewars is a rank and file fantasy game. Star Wars Legion is a skirmish scifi game. They have entirely different command/action and initiative systems. Other than being played on a tabletop and rolling dice, they're really not very similar at all.
Essentially, this is a cheaper version of 40k that simplifies game mechanics while maintaining a high level of tactical and strategic complexity. It will have top tier organized play support. Oh yeah, and it's Star Wars.
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LunarSol wrote: It generally looks like IA's skirmish mode just never really took off so they're rebranding it and bumping up the models a bit to give it focus.
It looks interesting enough, but at the moment the primary hook seems to be that its Star Wars as opposed to a game mechanic that helps it stand out from the crowd. I actually really like the potential of Descent's dice system in a tabletop game but I'd be far more excited if there was a resource or activation mechanic that made it seem more unique from a gameplay perspective.
I've seen both played... Legion is NOTHING like Imperial Assault. Imperial Assault is effectively Final Fantasy Tactics with Lightsabers. Legion isn't. They're very, very different games.
Imperial Assault = Descent in Space.
Legion = Smallish model count Star Wars 40k with FFG rules.
LunarSol wrote: It generally looks like IA's skirmish mode just never really took off so they're rebranding it and bumping up the models a bit to give it focus.
It looks interesting enough, but at the moment the primary hook seems to be that its Star Wars as opposed to a game mechanic that helps it stand out from the crowd. I actually really like the potential of Descent's dice system in a tabletop game but I'd be far more excited if there was a resource or activation mechanic that made it seem more unique from a gameplay perspective.
There is a special resource/activation mechanic. I explained it upthread. Or do you mean something else?
I don't understand this "slapped in the face" thing. You bought IA to play IA. Your IA figures (and all the other IA tokens) work in IA. What more did anyone think they were entitled to by buying IA?
Well, it's possible that some people bought the game just for the "multiplayer" skirmish system, and that people may believe that the IA skirmish system is going to be discontinued/given less resources from now on, so their minis will have less subjective value, and being of a different scale they may not be able to easily make the jump with the stuff they already have.
I mean, "slap in the face" or "dishonest marketing" or whatever are IMHO too strong remarks for this, but they could have made the minis 100% compatible if they wanted to... and they didn't want to.
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Grey Templar wrote: Yeah. This is a totally different game from IA. IA is more of a roleplaying boardgame. Not a table top wargame.
That is very true, at least for the regular game. But for the skirmish I'm not so sure.
Kriswall wrote: I got to see this first hand at Gen Con and I'm completely sold. A few random thoughts...
1. Infantry models have no facing. Larger based models have both facing and firing arcs. An Imperial Speeder Bike, for example, is equipped with some sort of blaster cannon and a pistol. The pistol can be fired in any direction. The cannon can only be fired from the front arc. I like this. It's like 7th Edition and older 40k, but cleaner with clearly defined facings and firing arcs for all 'vehicles'.
2. Units have upgrade slots. A Stormtrooper unit starts with 4 models equipped with basic E-11 Blasters. The unit has 4 different upgrade slots. These upgrade slots can be used to either adds models or improve the effectiveness of the existing models. In the core box, we know three of the upgrades can simultaneously be used to add a basic dude, a heavy blaster dude and a rocket launcher dude, resulting in a 7 man squad. This is SO much easier than the current 40k list building. Grab a unit card and then add upgrade cards to match the upgrade icons on the unit card. Add up the points.
3. The Rebel side of the core box has 16 models. The Imperial side has 17 models. We know that this is roughly half of a "standard" army. In other words, a full sized army will likely be somewhere in the neighborhood of 30-40 models. This is a relatively small model count skirmish game. It's definitely not meant to represent large scale battles. It also means that ~$180 will get you two more or less full sized armies.
4. Standard games will be played on a 6'x3' board, exactly like Runewars and Armada. Much like Runewars and Armada, most of the action will probably take place on a 3'x3' portion of the larger map.
5. There will be an official Organized Play system, just as with every other FFG game. There will be a well defined set of tournament rules. You'll be able to realistically expect to walk into a Store Championship anywhere in the US and not have to worry about local house rules since official FFG events don't allow house rules.
6. There will almost certainly be a third Scum (think Boba Fett/Jabba/etc) faction at some point. X-Wing is one of the most commercially successful tabletop games and it has only three factions. Armada is one of the most commercially successful tabletop game and it has only two factions. Two for now and probably a third later will be enough.
7. It's definitely not a child's game. The mechanics are similar to X-Wing and Armada in the sense that you have movement sticks and a command phase. The Legion command system adds a layer of complexity to the game that doesn't exist in 40k. Do I use this command this turn or wait until later? Each command is a single use and you have 7 to use over the course of 6 turns. There are a lot of armies in 40k where the player is sort of on auto-pilot. Ork horde? Run forward, charge as soon as you can. Spammed flyers? Fly around and take out the heavy weapons first. I don't think you'll see this sort of no brainer, auto-pilot list in Legion. Those sorts of lists don't really exist in X-Wing, Armada or Runewars.
8. Speaking of Runewars, this is not Runewars. Runewars is a rank and file fantasy game. Star Wars Legion is a skirmish scifi game. They have entirely different command/action and initiative systems. Other than being played on a tabletop and rolling dice, they're really not very similar at all.
Essentially, this is a cheaper version of 40k that simplifies game mechanics while maintaining a high level of tactical and strategic complexity. It will have top tier organized play support. Oh yeah, and it's Star Wars.
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LunarSol wrote: It generally looks like IA's skirmish mode just never really took off so they're rebranding it and bumping up the models a bit to give it focus.
It looks interesting enough, but at the moment the primary hook seems to be that its Star Wars as opposed to a game mechanic that helps it stand out from the crowd. I actually really like the potential of Descent's dice system in a tabletop game but I'd be far more excited if there was a resource or activation mechanic that made it seem more unique from a gameplay perspective.
I've seen both played... Legion is NOTHING like Imperial Assault. Imperial Assault is effectively Final Fantasy Tactics with Lightsabers. Legion isn't. They're very, very different games.
Imperial Assault = Descent in Space.
Legion = Smallish model count Star Wars 40k with FFG rules.
1. Well to each their own, but for the most part, 7th edition was garbage. Hot Garbage. Front/Side/back arcs don't make or break a game by any means. Its all abstract anyways.
2. This is easier how? 8th 40k list building has 2 variants. Power, take the number is says right there, or points. GW is working on a free army builder for 8th, justl ike their AoS one which is really good. Also Battlescribe is really good. It literally takes me a min or so to make a 2k army.
3. "Full" armies maybe. Realistic armies no. You will pretty much be forced to buy the stormtrooper pack, the speeder pack, the rebel trooper pack for the better upgrade cards that they will have. Its like every other FFG game. 2 core boxes is a good start, but no where near what you will actually want, or will it be enough ti play in any form of event/tourney.
4. Which is a bad flaw. FFG chose 3x6 just to be different then 4x6. Movement trays like runwars 100% never see half of the battle. everyone places their stuff in the middle. while this game has more movement flexibility, its a skirmish game. 4x4 should have been the size.
5. Other popular games have that though. This is nothing different. 40k has ITC, Warlords their own, etc.
6. I'll give you X wing is the most popular, as how available it is, no building, already painted, not that many purchases needed and takes up little space. Armada? No even close dude. Vastly more expensive, takes up twice the space, you only find it in actual game stores (not target like x wing) takes vastly more time to play, and highly more complex. I don't know where you got this "fact" from but its no where near one of the most popular.
7. But one third of its market is for younger gamers. Yes, activating one model then the other player and back and fourth is a better system, for any game as it does increase tactics. 40k has that major flaw, that it wont ever change unfortunately. I own rune wars and it has a lot of issues of "no brainer" actions you are going to do. After turn 2 most of your actions are always the same on your dials and there isn't much new things you are doing.
8. You are correct
Cheaper version of 40k? No, not at all. first, its not going to be cheap. Enjoy the hefty price hike for having the star wars ip. It will make rune wars look more appealing im sure. Take rune wars and add another 10-20 bucks per package depending on size. You will also need to buy the boxes when they come out for the stat cards they wont give you in the core set. Out the gate, your easily looking at 3-400 bucks to have options. then they will sell you dice packs, as NO FFG game ever has enough dice. Then extra movement sticks, multipule versions of the same character, etc.
You act like 8th 40k is some highly difficult game, when its also very simplified. Also, you want small/cheaper 40k? Play the many variations of Kill Team. It will have prize support, til FFG decides to do a different game
Same size, different size - people will have the same complaint: "I don't wanna buy this fig again!" This is because the real issue is that IA and Legion are different games and their components are not cross compatible.
Honestly, I don't think there is much overlap between Legion and IA skirmish either. But there again, you can use your Legion infantry figs in IA, including IA skirmish. Nothing is stopping you but you. What a slap in the face!
LunarSol wrote: It generally looks like IA's skirmish mode just never really took off so they're rebranding it and bumping up the models a bit to give it focus.
It looks interesting enough, but at the moment the primary hook seems to be that its Star Wars as opposed to a game mechanic that helps it stand out from the crowd. I actually really like the potential of Descent's dice system in a tabletop game but I'd be far more excited if there was a resource or activation mechanic that made it seem more unique from a gameplay perspective.
There is a special resource/activation mechanic. I explained it upthread. Or do you mean something else?
Just missed your post and both the demos I've seen recorded at GenCon and the article on the site gloss over it pretty heavily. Found your post though and it sounds potentially interesting. I didn't really care for the command cards in Imperial Assault though (X-Wing bloat is definitely giving me a bias towards such thing) but I'll be keeping an eye on how it works. Thanks!
Manchu wrote: Same size, different size - people will have the same complaint: "I don't wanna buy this fig again!" This is because the real issue is that IA and Legion are different games and their components are not cross compatible.
Honestly, I don't think there is much overlap between Legion and IA skirmish either. But there again, you can use your Legion infantry figs in IA, including IA skirmish. Nothing is stopping you but you. What a slap in the face!
But the fact remains that is literally made no sense to change the scale. If I had figures from one game, and knew I can use them in another (especially a game that's the same IP!) I would buy into the other game, because I had models and it made it easier to get into.
Also as mentioned, it resets the production clock on actual new stuff. Great, I get to buy another darth vader, and another luke, and another leia...Nothing from new films.
Your missing the point that no one is complaining they cant use their Legions figs in IA Skirmish. No one is saying that. First I doubt it would work as I doubt the bases will fit in the squares, and youll already have those models. People are saying if the scale matched, they could use it in the new game, which wont work. As youll have a lot of mixed scales.
You have to buy Legion to play Legion. It literally does not matter at all whether you already have IA figures or not.
Because IA and Legion are separate games, the "production clock" you are talking about will be reset no matter what size the figures are.
There is actually no real use for IA figs in Legion, regardless of what size the figures are. Legion expansions come with as many figs as you can use in a unit. If you want to use IA figs as proxies in friendly games, it can be done - no slap in the face there, either.
Manchu wrote: Same size, different size - people will have the same complaint: "I don't wanna buy this fig again!" This is because the real issue is that IA and Legion are different games and their components are not cross compatible.
I wonder if part of the problem is that the figures are almost the same size.
If they had made Legion a 15mm game, I think it would have been more positively received. It would have been clearly designed as a different scale, and so the fact that you can't use IA figures wouldn't be an issue.
But making Legion just that little bit bigger for no apparent reason makes it look like they wanted to make a game in the same scale but were deliberately preventing you from using your existing figures, which comes across as a cash grab.
LunarSol wrote: Just missed your post and both the demos I've seen recorded at GenCon and the article on the site gloss over it pretty heavily. Found your post though and it sounds potentially interesting. I didn't really care for the command cards in Imperial Assault though (X-Wing bloat is definitely giving me a bias towards such thing) but I'll be keeping an eye on how it works. Thanks!
Glad to help. The Command cards from the box are basically a way to determine what are you going to favor that turn, wether activation speed or a bigger control over what units get activated, except for the special character command cards (both Vader and Luke have 3 special cards each, so I suppose all commander will have 3 too) that usually allow you to do something else too.
By way of example, one of Vader's special Command cards is called "Master of Evil": it's a 3 pips card, which means that it's quite possible that his side will go second, and allows the player to issue orders to Vader and 2 other units. Additionally, when you issue an order to Vader, he gains 1 dodge token, and you activate it, each enemy trooper unit at range 1-2 of him gains 3 suppression tokens.
I think them being "almost the same" is indeed a kind of red herring that people are latching onto while the actual underlying issue is FFG does not make cross compatible game components. The scale difference might be for no "apparent" reason but there are reasons nonetheless, as described above.
If Legion was 15mm, the "slap in the face" comments would be directed at something like having different proprietary dice for Legion.
15mm Legion would have been more positively received by well established war gamers. Don't think that would be the case for the wider target demographic.
I think them being "almost the same" is indeed a kind of red herring that people are latching onto while the actual underlying issue is FFG does not make cross compatible game components. The scale difference might be for no "apparent" reason but there are reasons nonetheless, as described above.
If Legion was 15mm, the "slap in the face" comments would be directed at something like having different proprietary dice for Legion.
15mm Legion would have been more positively received by well established war gamers. Don't think that would be the case for the wider target demographic.
Yea, but then we would bitch that we couldn't use our X-Wing minis with it. Although it's "technically" at 1/270th (or close to 6mm) the scales in X-Wing vary wildly. Like the A-Wing, which is actually closer to the 15mm size than the "almost 6mm" size.
Just can't win dammit!
Whatever, I'm over it really. Until my sons see it and want it.
Just another game for the shelf/table/gray pile of shame.
Manchu wrote: We are wargamers, we will find a way to bitch.
I can see it now, t-shirts saying:
Wargamers: Have game, will complain.
I will wait to see how Legions goes after a while and what future releases will be like before I consider buying into it.
I waited on X-Wing and glad I did. They eventually released Scum and I was sold on the game. So I am hoping with future releases it makes them game much more appealing than it is right now.
I think them being "almost the same" is indeed a kind of red herring that people are latching onto while the actual underlying issue is FFG does not make cross compatible game components. The scale difference might be for no "apparent" reason but there are reasons nonetheless, as described above.
What are the reasons, though, other than it's more profitable to resell the same Luke twice than make something new? I'd like a large variety of Star Wars figures. I'm never going to get that if they keep rebooting with a new scale after they burn through the popular characters. They make the Star Wars RPG, it would be nice to use both, but no, they want to make it just different enough to look stupid. So "we want to keep selling you the same repackaged few things" isn't a very compelling reason from a consumer perspective. Deep down, we know companies dont give a damn about the customer other than how much they can squeeze us for. It's the naked greed in this case that is off-putting.
If Legion was 15mm, the "slap in the face" comments would be directed at something like having different proprietary dice for Legion.
15mm Legion would have been more positively received by well established war gamers. Don't think that would be the case for the wider target demographic.
Strongly disagree on the 15mm issue. That allows for different scales of conflict and more vehicle/artillery oriented. That is a new experience. I wouldn't be interested, because 15mm figures are just too damn small for me, but at least it offers a reason to be a different scale other than "feth you, buy all the same stuff again!"
Strongly disagree on the 15mm issue. That allows for different scales of conflict and more vehicle/artillery oriented. I wouldn't be interested, because 15mm figures are just too damn small for me, but at least it offers something unique.
I would be far more interested in 15 mm if it meant the game was more land vehicle based, but I get that the primary draw here is making models out of iconic characters.
Again, there isn't actually a consistent "Imperial Assault scale." But let's say there is one for the sake of argument. The current complaint is that by making the Legion figs in a different scale than IA figs, FFG is greedily forcing us to buy nearly the same thing a second time! OK, what if the scale of Legion figs is the same as IA figs? Basically the same complaint: FFG is greedily forcing us to buy the same thing a second time!
In fact, IA and Legion are different games and product lines. One is not a cross sell into the other. They are not meant to be compatible. They are not meant to be confused with one another. Compatibility actually could be a hazard, considering the rumored rights dispute/rights sharing agreement with Hasbro regarding IA. Moreover, FFG does not like small figures and abandoned Battlelore 2E in part because of this. Based on their experiences with manufacturers, FFG seems to believe that larger miniatures amount to more detail, at least balanced against their other requirements (low complexity assembly, materials, representing iconic characters) and thus a more competitive product vis a vis the wider market of table top gamers and potential table top gamers.
You're never going to make something that will appeal to all fans, all of the time. Especially with something like this, such as Star Wars, where the universe has been around for years and different people take different things, and different types of enjoyment, from it.
This is Storm Troopers and rebel scum blasting away at each other other, Jedi and Sith, walkers and speeders, all in an easily recognisable tabletop format. For 90% that will be enough, and I'm sure the sales volumes will reflect that, regardless of what is said here. For the other 10%,who want everything from small scale to the fan-fic expanded universe that saw Leia decide that she didn't want to strangle Jabba, and married him instead, and started a 5000 year dynasty that saw them take control of all of the spice in the universe, unfortunately this might not scratch that itch. But, at least there is enough other Star Wars stuff out there that you'll be able to find something.
I think the important thing here is for what FFG planned to make of having the license. They could quite easily have released a horse turd of a game with no interesting mechanics or anything distinctive whatsover, and it would have still sold because it's Star Wars. But from what I have read it really does sound like they have made an effort with the design of the game. I don't think there is a person posting here that has witnessed the game and has given it a 'tomato splat' rating. In-between this and Fallout, as well as 40k enjoying something of a renaissance, it looks like being a really bumper year for sci-fi gaming, I can't wait for the end of the year and to seeing what kind of things will arrive.
If they HAD done 15mm the comments would likely be that they switched to 15mm to force everyone to rebuy everything.. The starter set isn't crazy expensive.. it comes with a game and miniatures. FFG just released the "essentials" for Runewars and with some dials from 3rd party companies (I linked already in this thread) you absolutely can use other stuff. A guy at the FLGS has been running elves for a while, despite the army only recently releasing.
Basically.. what they've done has at least given an opportunity to possibly make use of what you've got if you're willing to put in a little effort. I understand that some people just refuse to do that but let's not pretend it's going to be impossible to acquire or produce the cards and crap needed to use your units. Maybe the unit numbers won't line up and one or two things just won't make it but.. seriously.. come on..
Let me put it like this.. Why would FFG give a damn if anyone is upset about not getting a whole game for free just recycling their figures? Are they going to lose your business.. of.. not buying their new game? The one you weren't going to buy anyway? I mean.. I just don't follow the logic here.
While not related (yet) there was an interesting reveal from the upcoming SW film. A new Imperial walker that is kinda like an AT-AT and an AT-TE had a baby.
Personally, I'm more worried about the quality and consistency of the new figures.
If they manage some sort of scale consistency in the new Legion figures and have better QA with them, I intend to use them in IA games. Both of the above were major issues with IA in my opinion.
GW is the devil, because when they released Epic, it was made in a different scale so people couldn't use the models they already had. Inquisitor was made in 54mm scale so every marine fan was forced to buy Artemis, instead of using a marine from their collection.
That's how absurd these arguments about Star Wars Legion sound to me. Even if the scale was perfectly in line with Imperial Assault, people would be complaining that they would have to buy the Core set of Legion just to play the game with their IA minis, so cash grab. Or that the dice being different was a cash grab to sell more dice.
Yes, after seeing and playing it at GenCon I think a 15mm or 1/72 scale would have made this an instant buy for me, as that's not a scale I have a game for in my collection. But there's no way that would have made people who are salty about the scale chance feel any different. There would probably just be an argument over how the game was too expensive for tiny, under-detailed 15mm minis.
People reacted with just as much vitriol about Armada.
AegisGrimm wrote: GW is the devil, because when they released Epic, it was made in a different scale so people couldn't use the models they already had. Inquisitor was made in 54mm scale so every marine fan was forced to buy Artemis, instead of using a marine from their collection.
That's how absurd these arguments about Star Wars Legion sound to me. Even if the scale was perfectly in line with Imperial Assault, people would be complaining that they would have to buy the Core set of Legion just to play the game with their IA minis, so cash grab. Or that the dice being different was a cash grab to sell more dice.
Yes, after seeing and playing it at GenCon I think a 15mm or 1/72 scale would have made this an instant buy for me, as that's not a scale I have a game for in my collection. But there's no way that would have made people who are salty about the scale chance feel any different. There would probably just be an argument over how the game was too expensive for tiny, under-detailed 15mm minis.
People reacted with just as much vitriol about Armada.
Exalted. I'm starting to think people don't know how to not be outraged anymore..
insaniak wrote: I wonder if part of the problem is that the figures are almost the same size.
I'd say that's exactly it. If they were 15mm instead of 28mm, there would be a reason why compatibility was discarded (because halving the scale makes it substantially cheaper to support larger battles with larger vehicles like AT-ATs).
The scale thing is totally superficial. First of all, put it out of your mind that FFG was going to do humanoid figures at a scale smaller than "28mm" (i.e., 32mm). This was already off the table, as far as FFG was concerned. So since the scale was going to be 1/56 or larger, you can pretty much only do IA size (assuming there is such a thing, which is debatable) or larger.
Also, it's Star Wars minis. Other than the gripe about compatibility with IA minis (evidently no one is mad because they can't use all their hordes of Wizards of the Coast or old West End metal minis in Legion, only Imperial Assault ones), it's not like they need to be compatible with anything else. Being slightly larger than 28mm scale is still easily compatible with other generic terrain out there, but its not like any other companies make Star Wars wargame minis or terrain stuff they need to match up with.
15mm figures would be even less compatible with (nearly) all the other the other stuff to be had on the mass market, unless all your Star Wars planets happen look like Western Europe or WWIII America.
Either way you'd have to make your own cool themed terrain.
The gripe about the scale change from IA to SWL --- and not from WOTC and West End stuff --- is likely because those games are both FFG properties and they're both in print.
So IA owners now --- while IA is still in print --- get the benefit of getting to buy the same stormtroopers and other characters all over again when the IA stuff could have been used just as easily. That's what I've heard as a common complaint on BGG at least.
Well, it looks like the scale is a wee bit bigger than the 32mm or so miniatures.
That will certainly make for bigger terrain and vehicles.
So we are looking at skirmish games around the model count of Bolt Action with a couple vehicles and a few squads of troops.
I do not expect to see the 6 odd troop squads like 40k can allow (nevermind some 90 Stormtrooper models like Orks).
It is sad since my Terragenisis terrain looks like a shoe-in for Tatooine buildings but at 10 to 15mm scale.
I honestly think the game would have been awesome at 15mm, it is too close to the Imperial Assault scale and is like a needless duplication.
Really don't care since most people just use army lists that print the various stats of the cards.
Unless of course you go all competitive and people want to see the real cards.
So, if we're done inventing fictional arguments not made by fictional people who aren't present in order to try and shut down whatever citicisms we don't agree with, how about that topic eh?
I think it really helped that FFG showed up with such great looking demo tables.
Using the MEdge sprue is a great idea. I have always intended to use mine to make some Tatooine buildings. Of course, people have been scratch building SW terrain for years. You can find some great Mos Eisley tables on Lead aadventure forum.
Yeah, tables were amazing. I really want to do that Endor table at some point. Rob Hawkins built at least 2 of those demo tables, he does a lot of demo tables for Wild West Exodus, super dungeon explore, Malifaux and others. It's worth following his blog, talented guy
Posting the board pics here under a spoiler tag, definitely worth seeing
Spoiler:
In that second one in particular, think I have realised the key terrain components for identifying a Star Wars board
- Some kind of curved-domed building
- Moisture extraction devices (or whatever those things are with the weather vain things on top, on the desert board)
Those moisture farm machines look to be the same as the ones on the other Tatooine/Desert board.
A sign that maybe FFG is making them?
Though I suppose they could be pre-existing kits from another source that 2 different board builders found and used.
Talizvar wrote: Really don't care since most people just use army lists that print the various stats of the cards.
Unless of course you go all competitive and people want to see the real cards.
I live on the US East Coast near Philly and have played X-Wing, Armada, Imperial Assault and Runewars at dozens of stores up and down the coast from Massachusetts to Virginia and then west to Indiana. I've never once seen someone not use the official cards. It's possible that in your neck of the woods that people use printed listed and avoid the cards, but that's definitely not what 'most people' do... at least not in the US. The organized event scene is inherently official and official games require official game components. In other words, if you want to use your IA Stormtroopers, you're going to need a Legion Stormtrooper box to get the unit card and upgrades. Might as well use the Legion Stormtroopers at that point.
You're right, most people (IME) do use the actual cards - they came with the minis after all. (Plus, for all the complaints about too much clutter, I think many people like the tactility of components.) The notion of using a written out list instead makes sense, however, when you're just proxying stuff you don't have in a friendly game. Near as I can tell, there's really nothing to stop anyone from doing that, using IA figures they already own, if they want to try out Legion before buying.
So the remaining problem would be, what? that you can't use IA figs in Legion organized play? Kind of a "well duh" issue.
You're right, most people (IME) do use the actual cards - they came with the minis after all. (Plus, for all the complaints about too much clutter, I think many people like the tactility of components.) The notion of using a written out list instead makes sense, however, when you're just proxying stuff you don't have in a friendly game. Near as I can tell, there's really nothing to stop anyone from doing that, using IA figures they already own, if they want to try out Legion before buying.
So the remaining problem would be, what? that you can't use IA figs in Legion organized play? Kind of a "well duh" issue.
I live in San Diego and I'm not particularly active in the FLGS anymore but here there are definitely people who do not use official minis or even components if it will either a)save them money or b)keep them from having to paint more stuff.. As I said earlier, they've even gone so far as to make RW spinners for units they wanted more of or that haven't been released. I would imagine anyone with a sizeable Wizkids prepaint collection would probably also be interested in the cards for casual play but the point about the official events is spot on.. and even IA stuff would not seem likely to be allowed tbh. That said.. out of the people who have complained.. I'm curious about how many of them a)own IA in the first place, b)plan on playing in official events, c)would have bought this under any other condition (like.. literally what circumstances would they have not complained and just bought the game?). The fake outrage culture is out of hand.
You're right, most people (IME) do use the actual cards - they came with the minis after all. (Plus, for all the complaints about too much clutter, I think many people like the tactility of components.) The notion of using a written out list instead makes sense, however, when you're just proxying stuff you don't have in a friendly game. Near as I can tell, there's really nothing to stop anyone from doing that, using IA figures they already own, if they want to try out Legion before buying.
So the remaining problem would be, what? that you can't use IA figs in Legion organized play? Kind of a "well duh" issue.
I live in San Diego and I'm not particularly active in the FLGS anymore but here there are definitely people who do not use official minis or even components if it will either a)save them money or b)keep them from having to paint more stuff.. As I said earlier, they've even gone so far as to make RW spinners for units they wanted more of or that haven't been released. I would imagine anyone with a sizeable Wizkids prepaint collection would probably also be interested in the cards for casual play but the point about the official events is spot on.. and even IA stuff would not seem likely to be allowed tbh. That said.. out of the people who have complained.. I'm curious about how many of them a)own IA in the first place, b)plan on playing in official events, c)would have bought this under any other condition (like.. literally what circumstances would they have not complained and just bought the game?). The fake outrage culture is out of hand.
I agree. This outrage is weird. It's a $90 core box that includes everything you need to play. If you like the game, there will be more of it in the future in the form of expansion packs. It's almost like people are furious that they're being asked to buy the game to be able to play the game? If you don't think the game has value, don't buy it. If you think you'll be able to play it in a meaningful way without buying it, prepare to be disappointed. If you think you'll be able to play it using components from an entirely different game, prepare to be disappointed.
You're right, most people (IME) do use the actual cards - they came with the minis after all. (Plus, for all the complaints about too much clutter, I think many people like the tactility of components.) The notion of using a written out list instead makes sense, however, when you're just proxying stuff you don't have in a friendly game. Near as I can tell, there's really nothing to stop anyone from doing that, using IA figures they already own, if they want to try out Legion before buying.
So the remaining problem would be, what? that you can't use IA figs in Legion organized play? Kind of a "well duh" issue.
I live in San Diego and I'm not particularly active in the FLGS anymore but here there are definitely people who do not use official minis or even components if it will either a)save them money or b)keep them from having to paint more stuff.. As I said earlier, they've even gone so far as to make RW spinners for units they wanted more of or that haven't been released. I would imagine anyone with a sizeable Wizkids prepaint collection would probably also be interested in the cards for casual play but the point about the official events is spot on.. and even IA stuff would not seem likely to be allowed tbh. That said.. out of the people who have complained.. I'm curious about how many of them a)own IA in the first place, b)plan on playing in official events, c)would have bought this under any other condition (like.. literally what circumstances would they have not complained and just bought the game?). The fake outrage culture is out of hand.
I agree. This outrage is weird. It's a $90 core box that includes everything you need to play. If you like the game, there will be more of it in the future in the form of expansion packs. It's almost like people are furious that they're being asked to buy the game to be able to play the game? If you don't think the game has value, don't buy it. If you think you'll be able to play it in a meaningful way without buying it, prepare to be disappointed. If you think you'll be able to play it using components from an entirely different game, prepare to be disappointed.
You forgot, If you've played any other minis game/board game with minis from FFG, don't expect much new here, just more Star Wars!
I have IA, and everything in wave 1 (except that second ATST with the dude on top) and painted it all up. I wasn't interested in the campaign, only skirmish. But ... I didn't like IA skirmish (this is after buying and painting everything, lol)
So I'm a bit annoyed that my IA figures will look strange alongside the new, larger Legion figures. I'll either rebase the Lesion figures on flat, renedra style bases, or just suck it up. If it looks really weird, I'll grumpily shell out money for a bunch of new, Legion stuff.
Oh, and to the guy claiming that Armada isn't as popular as all that...
...
6. I'll give you X wing is the most popular, as how available it is, no building, already painted, not that many purchases needed and takes up little space. Armada? No even close dude. Vastly more expensive, takes up twice the space, you only find it in actual game stores (not target like x wing) takes vastly more time to play, and highly more complex. I don't know where you got this "fact" from but its no where near one of the most popular.
...
Armada has been in the top five best selling non collectible minis games for some time now. So there!
You're right, most people (IME) do use the actual cards - they came with the minis after all. (Plus, for all the complaints about too much clutter, I think many people like the tactility of components.) The notion of using a written out list instead makes sense, however, when you're just proxying stuff you don't have in a friendly game. Near as I can tell, there's really nothing to stop anyone from doing that, using IA figures they already own, if they want to try out Legion before buying.
So the remaining problem would be, what? that you can't use IA figs in Legion organized play? Kind of a "well duh" issue.
I live in San Diego and I'm not particularly active in the FLGS anymore but here there are definitely people who do not use official minis or even components if it will either a)save them money or b)keep them from having to paint more stuff.. As I said earlier, they've even gone so far as to make RW spinners for units they wanted more of or that haven't been released. I would imagine anyone with a sizeable Wizkids prepaint collection would probably also be interested in the cards for casual play but the point about the official events is spot on.. and even IA stuff would not seem likely to be allowed tbh. That said.. out of the people who have complained.. I'm curious about how many of them a)own IA in the first place, b)plan on playing in official events, c)would have bought this under any other condition (like.. literally what circumstances would they have not complained and just bought the game?). The fake outrage culture is out of hand.
I agree. This outrage is weird. It's a $90 core box that includes everything you need to play. If you like the game, there will be more of it in the future in the form of expansion packs. It's almost like people are furious that they're being asked to buy the game to be able to play the game? If you don't think the game has value, don't buy it. If you think you'll be able to play it in a meaningful way without buying it, prepare to be disappointed. If you think you'll be able to play it using components from an entirely different game, prepare to be disappointed.
You forgot, If you've played any other minis game/board game with minis from FFG, don't expect much new here, just more Star Wars!
Well... Legion is completely unlike Imperial Assault. The main similarity is that there are Stormtroopers in both. It's also unlike Runewars. Really, FFG doesn't have a game quite like Legion. Yes, there are custom dice and keyword abilities. Yes, it will be very easy to learn for anyone who has played other FFG games. However... to say that the game won't bring anything new to the table isn't a fair statement.
Hey pancakeonions, just sell your IA stuff. I bought all of IA up to Twin Shadows, played it and didn't like it. Sold it away to get at least some of my money back.
RE: Armada - I think you can only buy X-Wing staters at Target. You can get expansions at Barnes & Noble but they also sell Armada.
You're right, most people (IME) do use the actual cards - they came with the minis after all. (Plus, for all the complaints about too much clutter, I think many people like the tactility of components.) The notion of using a written out list instead makes sense, however, when you're just proxying stuff you don't have in a friendly game. Near as I can tell, there's really nothing to stop anyone from doing that, using IA figures they already own, if they want to try out Legion before buying.
So the remaining problem would be, what? that you can't use IA figs in Legion organized play? Kind of a "well duh" issue.
I live in San Diego and I'm not particularly active in the FLGS anymore but here there are definitely people who do not use official minis or even components if it will either a)save them money or b)keep them from having to paint more stuff.. As I said earlier, they've even gone so far as to make RW spinners for units they wanted more of or that haven't been released. I would imagine anyone with a sizeable Wizkids prepaint collection would probably also be interested in the cards for casual play but the point about the official events is spot on.. and even IA stuff would not seem likely to be allowed tbh. That said.. out of the people who have complained.. I'm curious about how many of them a)own IA in the first place, b)plan on playing in official events, c)would have bought this under any other condition (like.. literally what circumstances would they have not complained and just bought the game?). The fake outrage culture is out of hand.
I agree. This outrage is weird. It's a $90 core box that includes everything you need to play. If you like the game, there will be more of it in the future in the form of expansion packs. It's almost like people are furious that they're being asked to buy the game to be able to play the game? If you don't think the game has value, don't buy it. If you think you'll be able to play it in a meaningful way without buying it, prepare to be disappointed. If you think you'll be able to play it using components from an entirely different game, prepare to be disappointed.
You forgot, If you've played any other minis game/board game with minis from FFG, don't expect much new here, just more Star Wars!
Well... Legion is completely unlike Imperial Assault. The main similarity is that there are Stormtroopers in both. It's also unlike Runewars. Really, FFG doesn't have a game quite like Legion. Yes, there are custom dice and keyword abilities. Yes, it will be very easy to learn for anyone who has played other FFG games. However... to say that the game won't bring anything new to the table isn't a fair statement.
I did say don't expect much. Yes, there are new things, but at the core? Not so much. Uses special dice(which uses hits/shields/and surges like all their other games), movement templates, measuring sticks, millions of tokens, stat cards, upgrades for stat cards, arcs of fire. All of that is what almost all of their games use.
You have suppression fire and how units activate that's different, though really, I cant say most of your units going randomly is an enjoyable thing,. Not the best "fog of war" mechanic ive seen
Wondering if you think that using d6s, a measuring tape, and using army books would make Legion more novel?
As to random activation - not sure if you have learned how it works in Legion but there is a trade off: activate more units but risk losing priority or try to get priority in exchange for not getting to choose as many units to activate. The units you don't activate with your command card for that turn are activated sort of randomly, in that you draw activation tokens by rank. You can game this a bit by activating everything that is not X type of unit with your card - that way everything left to activate is the same rank and its no longer random.
It looks like each unit type has its own icon, which is shared with all units of that type, so if you take a lot of stormtrooper squads does that mean if any stormtrooper token comes up to activate, can you activate any of them?
Also, it's only random if you don't use a command card to make their activations not random.
In typical FFG fashion, a lot of early stuff they put out, such as those command cards, are pretty bland and vanilla. But considering commanders come come with their own command cards, and they're used up once used, there's a lot of opportunity here.
I get why there's complaints, but while some people see more of the same, I actually see a lot of interesting innovation in terms of activation mechanics while building on traditional miniature game ideas. The board/card components are a part of that.
These very ideas I'm probably going to take a lot from when updating my own rules sets. Makes me wonder how it'd work in a system that's not based around components like FFGs game.
If someone didn't like Skirmish or FFG's mechanics.. then why in the FFFFFFFF would they buy Legions (or care that they can't play it)??? Seriously?
ALSO.. if you want a skirmish game that's slightly more traditional.. just hit up ebay for the WEG tabletop game. I bought it for my son a while back. Or check out the SWM rules. Or use your IA with rules from One Page Rules.. or proxy them as 40k units. I mean.. FFS people. Someone get some cheese and crackers.. there's a loooooot of whine in here
Manchu wrote:As to random activation - not sure if you have learned how it works in Legion but there is a trade off: activate more units but risk losing priority or try to get priority in exchange for not getting to choose as many units to activate. The units you don't activate with your command card for that turn are activated sort of randomly, in that you draw activation tokens by rank. You can game this a bit by activating everything that is not X type of unit with your card - that way everything left to activate is the same rank and its no longer random.
That's most certainly possible to do, yeah, but remember that by default you can only issue orders to units within range 1-3 of the issuing commander, so either you'll need to keep the stuff you want to issue orders to near the commander or you'll need to buy long range commlinks.
Vertrucio wrote:It looks like each unit type has its own icon, which is shared with all units of that type, so if you take a lot of stormtrooper squads does that mean if any stormtrooper token comes up to activate, can you activate any of them?
Yes, each unit has a rank that you use when issuing orders, and that during army creation define the amount of units of each rank that you can buy. The ranks defined in the core are Commander (1-2), Corps (3-6), Special Forces (0-3), Support (0-3) and Heavy (0-2).
Vertrucio wrote:It looks like each unit type has its own icon, which is shared with all units of that type, so if you take a lot of stormtrooper squads does that mean if any stormtrooper token comes up to activate, can you activate any of them?
Yes, each unit has a rank that you use when issuing orders, and that during army creation define the amount of units of each rank that you can buy. The ranks defined in the core are Commander (1-2), Corps (3-6), Special Forces (0-3), Support (0-3) and Heavy (0-2).
Ah, so there's a built in advantage for taking groups.
The stormtroopers squads are "Corps" so if you draw a Corps token then you can activate any unit of stormtroopers that hasn't already been activated that turn.
In the Team Covenant vid, the guy playing Imperials (don't know those fine gents' names) played a command card that let him activate two units and he chose Vader and the Speeder Bikes. Therefore, when it came to the "random" activation, it wasn't random at all for him - he only had the Stormies left.
I like how there is room here for a lot of decision points.
Albertorius,
Thinking about rank diversity and whether to use upgrades like Long Range Comlinks during army building is one of those interesting decision points. It's a little bit like building a LCG/CCG deck, in a way.
MLaw wrote: If someone didn't like Skirmish or FFG's mechanics.. then why in the FFFFFFFF would they buy Legions (or care that they can't play it)??? Seriously?
ALSO.. if you want a skirmish game that's slightly more traditional.. just hit up ebay for the WEG tabletop game. I bought it for my son a while back. Or check out the SWM rules. Or use your IA with rules from One Page Rules.. or proxy them as 40k units. I mean.. FFS people. Someone get some cheese and crackers.. there's a loooooot of whine in here
IA and Legions are very different games. I don't like IA Skirmish, but I love 40k. Legion is Star Wars 40k with FFG mechanics.
I still say they missed the boat not making these either compatible with IA scale or something smaller like Epic, instead of "just a bit outside" of what they have.
I think the concern from gamers is pretty legitimate here.
With FFG getting in a bit of trouble for making a Star Wars boardgame (something they're apparently not allowed to do) it seems they've decided to go whole-hog on a miniature wargame based in Star Wars --- something they are allowed to do with their current licensing.
I have seen dozens and dozens of excellent hobby threads where people bought into IA - and it seems predominantly for the miniatures. There are loads of painted "armies" so to speak and a lot of fine collections. I can understand fully why someone with a fully painted IA collection would be more than a little miffed than an entire new line is coming out - not in scale with their stuff.
This would have been a shockingly easy way for FFG to actually build some rapport with their gamers...but instead they've gone the other direction. Add to it that it's possible FFG will now dump IA (I think this'll occur depending on how much trouble they're in for making a proper board game with the Star Wars IP) and you end up with a bunch of gamers who feel jilted.
I think that is a perfectly logical gripe and something FFG should have considered more heavily. It's easy to piss off customers or potential customers - and far harder to keep them or attract them. This would have been an easy win for them, converting the IA players into the Legion fold as it were.
No one here seems to be whining or crying like a baby - just expressing logical frustration.
Thargrim wrote: IA is a board game, Legion is a tabletop miniature wargame. It makes sense they would make new and better/more detailed models because the models are a lot more key than the more gamepiece style of IA. The butthurt of people complaining they aren't cross compatible is just amusing. Brand new game=new models not a big surprise. X wing and Armada also are not compatible.
The comparison of IA and Legion to X-Wing and Armada might be stronger if Legion was done in 6-10mm scale (which would actually fire me up, as it would allow you to field multiple AT-ATs, Drone Tanks or other really big things against swarms of infantry). Creating a new game that uses miniatures that are almost the same scale, to fight battles that are almost the same as the IA in skirmish mode, makes less of a case for the need for incompatible miniatures.
I personally have no interest in any prequel related stuff.
The prequel trilogy poisoned that well for me. I wouldn't mind seeing some "Clone Wars" material introduced into the game (as I think is coming in the next IA expansion).
And seeing as how we're coming up on the second movie of a new modern trilogy with the resistance vs FO. I kind of would like to see that era get a little more attention in a while after this game is established. Though I know they'd rather tug on everyones nostalgia with the GCW first.
Other than the named characters, and black stormtroopers, is there really anything new in the third trilogy that could be incorporated into the Legion game?
Elbows wrote: I think the concern from gamers is pretty legitimate here.
With FFG getting in a bit of trouble for making a Star Wars boardgame (something they're apparently not allowed to do) it seems they've decided to go whole-hog on a miniature wargame based in Star Wars --- something they are allowed to do with their current licensing.
Wait. Are you saying that they published a board game (IA), four boxed expansions with a fifth up for preorder, along with a couple dozen figure packs with again 3-4 more up for preorder, over the last three years and they are "not allowed" to do that???
I agree. This outrage is weird. It's a $90 core box that includes everything you need to play. If you like the game, there will be more of it in the future in the form of expansion packs. It's almost like people are furious that they're being asked to buy the game to be able to play the game? If you don't think the game has value, don't buy it. If you think you'll be able to play it in a meaningful way without buying it, prepare to be disappointed. If you think you'll be able to play it using components from an entirely different game, prepare to be disappointed.
Outrage? It's more accurately described as annoyance at FFG's latest financially motivated inconvienencing of and casual disregard for some of their customers exacerbated by folks on dakka who refuse to call a spade a spade here in this thread. If anything, commentary like this as well as those showing a complete lack of empathy and refusal to see any merit in the grevienances just make it worse. I certainly won't be buying any of it but the deliberate and unnecessary scale change just further cemented the already made decision rather than influencing it. Ymmv.
Despite the funky movement tool, which seems like it would be awkward in a skirmish game with terrain everywhere, this actually looks pretty sweet.
I've seen a few side by side pictures with IA stuff and most of it looks fine with a re basing.
While I don't always like every mechanic FFG does, I do really appreciate that they actually try something new with their games. Whjle not an auto-buy for me, I'm going to keep my eye on this one.
Manchu wrote: And it's a foolish complaint because even if the size was the same they would still have to buy Legion stuff to play Legion.
But only packs, dials, chits, etc. Moreover, what you keep constantly ignoring, is it reboots the release schedule, so it's going to take even longer to get more new stuff, when what they already had was perfectly fine to repurpose as legion releases going forward. It's clearly just a money grab to sell Luke twice, rather than IA Luke and a Legion Luke card pack. You want to pretend they cant from some vague rumor regarding IA's licensing agreement.
You want Thrawn in Legion? Too bad. Time to re-release Han, Vader, etc. And after they burn through the easy sales on popular main characters, get ready for 40mm Legion in 2020.
FFG is indeed financially motivated. Hard to criticize a company for that.
OK so I am trying to understand the "inconvenience" here. If you want to use Legion figs with IA, you can. If you want to proxy IA figs in Legion for friendly games, you can. Does the slight scale difference make the thought of doing so utterly repugnant? If so, how did you ever stand IA figures in the first place? And moreover, wouldn't that be your quirk rather than anything to do with FFG? Now, there is a problem with vehicle incompatibility but that is a problem with the bases, not with the scale difference.
Is the "inconvenience" that you cannot use IA figs in official Legion events and vice versa? Why would anyone have expected to? The purpose of organized play is to drive sales of a specific product line.
Or is the inconvenience totally unrelated to playing any FFG game and it's just a matter of people wanting the figs for their own purposes? If so, why not just keep buying IA figures? If you don't care about playing IA or Legion then what does it matter if the scales are different?
Elbows wrote: I think the concern from gamers is pretty legitimate here.
With FFG getting in a bit of trouble for making a Star Wars boardgame (something they're apparently not allowed to do) it seems they've decided to go whole-hog on a miniature wargame based in Star Wars --- something they are allowed to do with their current licensing.
Wait. Are you saying that they published a board game (IA), four boxed expansions with a fifth up for preorder, along with a couple dozen figure packs with again 3-4 more up for preorder, over the last three years and they are "not allowed" to do that???
That's the scuttlebutt...apparently Hasbro maintains the board game rights for the Star Wars IP and that's why FFG shoe-horned "skirmish" rules into the original IA, etc...so, in short - perhaps?
Manchu, despite your continued attempts to belittle people for their opinions - you do understand that scale is a big deal to wargamers? The products will be generally incompatible with each other, and for little reason.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: Moreover, what you keep constantly ignoring, is it reboots the release schedule
Manchu wrote: Because IA and Legion are separate games, the "production clock" you are talking about will be reset no matter what size the figures are.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: Moreover, what you keep constantly ignoring, is it reboots the release schedule
Manchu wrote: Because IA and Legion are separate games, the "production clock" you are talking about will be reset no matter what size the figures are.
There was no reason other than cash grab to MAKE them separate products. Why exactly couldnt they have had IA upgrade decks for all the existing stuff? Oh right, greed and unsubstantiated rumors that you take to mean they can't.
Elbows wrote: That's the scuttlebutt...apparently Hasbro maintains the board game rights for the Star Wars IP and that's why FFG shoe-horned "skirmish" rules into the original IA, etc...so, in short - perhaps?
As far as I know, that's only a rumor and nothing more. I asked, and people looked at me like I was on crack.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: Why exactly couldnt they have had IA upgrade decks for all the existing stuff?
That's easy.
I don't like IA. I already bought it. A whole lot of it. And sold it. I didn't like either the dungeon crawl or the skirmish. I do want to play a Star Wars miniatures game. Why should I have to buy all the IA stuff over again plus these upgrade expansions you're proposing, just to get to that?
Meanwhile, people who like IA can use all their IA stuff in IA, which is all they were ever entitled to as a matter of buying IA.
People who have IA stuff lose literally nothing as a result of Legion being a different game.
I do like IA, but only the campaign game, and I'm hoping that the automatic Imperial player app makes it play more like Mansions of Madness, a game that's been a runaway hit with my group.
I also plan on using whatever IA stuff I can on Legion, if we end up playing consistently. But as I said abovethread, my particular use case is that we'll be playing at my home, and I don't do LGS nor tournaments.
Albertorius wrote: I do like IA, but only the campaign game, and I'm hoping that the automatic Imperial player app makes it play more like Mansions of Madness, a game that's been a runaway hit with my group.
Is this something that's for sure happening? I've pretty much been holding onto my copy of IA on the hope that it would be a thing.
Albertorius wrote: I do like IA, but only the campaign game, and I'm hoping that the automatic Imperial player app makes it play more like Mansions of Madness, a game that's been a runaway hit with my group.
Is this something that's for sure happening? I've pretty much been holding onto my copy of IA on the hope that it would be a thing.
Last mention about it was at Gen Con. They said that it was happening and that it was in testing, but no hard date.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: Why exactly couldnt they have had IA upgrade decks for all the existing stuff?
That's easy.
I don't like IA. I already bought it. A whole lot of it. And sold it. I didn't like either the dungeon crawl or the skirmish. I do want to play a Star Wars miniatures game. Why should I have to buy all the IA stuff over again plus these upgrade expansions you're proposing, just to get to that?
Meanwhile, people who like IA can use all their IA stuff in IA, which is all they were ever entitled to as a matter of buying IA.
People who have IA stuff lose literally nothing as a result of Legion being a different game.
You're buying stuff either way though! So I guess it's just schadenfreude to want the rest of us to have to do the same?
Bossk_Hogg wrote: Why exactly couldnt they have had IA upgrade decks for all the existing stuff?
That's easy.
I don't like IA. I already bought it. A whole lot of it. And sold it. I didn't like either the dungeon crawl or the skirmish. I do want to play a Star Wars miniatures game. Why should I have to buy all the IA stuff over again plus these upgrade expansions you're proposing, just to get to that?
Meanwhile, people who like IA can use all their IA stuff in IA, which is all they were ever entitled to as a matter of buying IA.
People who have IA stuff lose literally nothing as a result of Legion being a different game.
You're buying stuff either way though! So I guess it's just schadenfreude to want the rest of us to have to do the same?
I really don't get the expectation to have a free game on top of the game you bought.
You got the game you bought. You still have that game.
Now you have a new game you can either buy if you want to play it or not if you don't.
Manchu wrote: FFG is indeed financially motivated. Hard to criticize a company for that.
OK so I am trying to understand the "inconvenience" here.
Maybe it's a hard habit to break in your profession but you're incorrectly separating one point into its individual words in an effort to delegitimize the original point as a whole. No one is criticizing a for profit company for being financially motivated (least of all me and you're responding to my quote). I'm criticizing them for making an arbitrary decision that adds no inherent value to the consumer but instead only potentially inconviences them which in all likelihood was made based exclusively for their own short term financial gain. In any case, if you haven't already seen any shred of justifaction for why some folks might reasonably disagree with this as consumers after all these pages then there is no point in attempting to explain it (again).
Add in (other posters') incorrect attribution of extreme emotions not exhibited in this cordial (if stubborn) discussion and it might just be best if you used your red text mod to just end the discussion... after gettting in your mod perogative final word of course! I don't believe anyone will be convinced of anything further if they haven't already.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: You're buying stuff either way though! So I guess it's just schadenfreude to want the rest of us to have to do the same?
lolwut
No but really are you being serious? You think people who want to play Legion should have to buy IA? And at the same time your complaint about Legion is that you don't want to have to buy Legion to play it ...
warboss wrote: I'm criticizing them for making an arbitrary decision that adds no inherent value to the consumer but instead only potentially inconviences them which in all likelihood was made based exclusively for their own short term financial gain.
Can you explain why the decision is arbitrary? And as previously requested, can you explain the nature of the inconvenience?
Albertorius wrote: I do like IA, but only the campaign game, and I'm hoping that the automatic Imperial player app makes it play more like Mansions of Madness, a game that's been a runaway hit with my group.
Is this something that's for sure happening? I've pretty much been holding onto my copy of IA on the hope that it would be a thing.
At gencon this year, all they said was it's in progress. It's was supposed to come out at gencon. Per usual ffg though they found new shineys (l5r and legions) to focus their attention on.
So sure, an app may come out this year or next, but the life span of IA is completly on the sales of legions. They won't focus on both.
Manchu - honestly at this point your just not getting what's been said a million times. It's crappy for them not to keep ot same scale, as it can literally only help their profits. If it was sake scale, you could easily use the figs without scale issues and it would make tons more people who own IA buy into legions. Separating it like that it's FFG just acting like old GW. Being an arsehole just to be an arsehole and not care about your established customer base
If I had to but IA to play Legion this would be an autoskip, I very much do not like the figures in the IA sets, something about them just seems off to me.
No one is saying that you would have to buy IA to play legion, only if you already had IA then you could get an upgrade kit to use those models in Legion. People who only wanted to play legion would instead by the legion equivalent box which would come with more sculpts and look nicer on the table.
Miniature war games live or die based upon the player base. Having IA models be compatible would have given FFG an instant player base and most of them would have picked up additional IA boxes as well to get more units and more variety.
str00dles1 wrote: At gencon this year, all they said was it's in progress. It's was supposed to come out at gencon. Per usual ffg though they found new shineys (l5r and legions) to focus their attention on.
Actually, it's only been announced, so far (it kinda sorta was announced last year's Gen Con, actually). FFG has never given a release date for it.
Not that we weren't hoping that it would be released in this year's Gen Con, though, but it was just that, a hope on our part.
I like a lot of those little vehicles. Someone on the FFG forum mentioned the MTV-7 is already in the LCG.
str00dles1 - honestly, is the real issue organized play? again, there is no scale-related reason you can't use IA figs as proxies in friendly games of Legion
Manchu wrote: I like a lot of those little vehicles. Someone on the FFG forum mentioned the MTV-7 is already in the LCG.
str00dles1 - honestly, is the real issue organized play? again, there is no scale-related reason you can't use IA figs as proxies in friendly games of Legion
I didn't say organized play, not even once...
Model scale is the issue, which is what everyone else is saying. I don't give a flying fart over organized play. They are vastly different. There's picture proof. Its like taking an Infinity figure to a Primaris Marine. This can easily cause line of sigh issues/cover issues. All the terrain being made is 32mm+. Friendly game or not, line of sight can cause issues. Also lets say you did buy the core, and as using IA to fill out more points. Models vastly different scales stick out and don't look good on a table. I don't know how long you have played minis games, but its well known and a common theme for all minis games to be in correct scale with each other.
Manchu wrote: The only minis with notched bases in the core box are the vehicles.
You will note I specified "larger models"
The AT-RT from the core box is from the PT.
Irrelevant, its not crewed by a clonetrooper. Its also justified by canon due to its usage by the rebels in Star Wars: Commander (which ignores the fact that the Empire also used them in an issue of the Darth Vader comic series).
so getting an AT-TE or some of that other stuff doesn't strike me as out of the question.
Well, Rex & co. did show up with an AT-TE in Rebels...
One major reason the Rebel Alliance (many armies and armadas joined together similar to the Allies or Axis in either WW) always seem so scattered and under-equipped, is because they were getting their asses kicked.
Not exactly. If you read Twilight Company you find that the Rebellion actually did go on major organized military offensives and managed to occupy/liberate a large number of worlds, managing to advance from the outer rim well into the mid rim (although they did later get their asses kicked and were forced to retreat back into the outer rim).
Keep in mind too that the idea of a Rebellion started basically in Episode 3. Luke Skywalker was 19 when Ep IV happened. So in less than 20 years they've mobilized an Armada and established a roving command.
The Rebellion didn't really start until a couple years prior to A New Hope. While there was an idea there as early as Episode 3, thats all it really - an idea. There were no military forces or command hierarchy, etc. Just recruiting efforts and small attempts to undermine the Empire.0 There were a handful of resistance movements spread across the galaxy (Free Ryloth Movement, for example) but they were highly localized and organized independently of one another, and otherwise entirely unrelated to Mon Mothma/Bail Organa and the Delegation of 2,000. Many (but not all) of these cells would later be organized together in secret by Bail and Mon Mothma through Fulcrum agents, so as to better coordinate their efforts against the Empire, but that process didn't really kick off until more than a decade after the fall of the Republic.
I suppose you think that GW should have made Space Hulk at 40mm scale?
To be fair, the minis for space hulk are a different scale....
A couple of points - Hoth was one army shorn of most of its equipment due to the conditions. Endor was their main fleet but not everything they had just everything they coud lay hands on at short notice.
Correct - although point of order - it was everything that they could scrap together on short notice that wasn't being committed to diversionary attacks intended to lure the Imperial Fleet away from the Endor. The Rebel Fleet (and indeed the Rebel Army) was *much* larger than what we've seen on screen. Seriously, people need to read Twilight Company to understand.
On the subject of kit and equipment owned/ used by both the Alliance and the Empire, I always liked the work done by West End Games in the sourcebooks for the roleplaying game.
Conveniently, as per Pablo Hidalgo (who also worked on the West End RPG), the West End RPG has served as a significant inspiration and a partial component for the modern post-Disney Star Wars bible (i.e. production notes and guidelines used by production staff to make sure that what they are doing fits the lore and setting).
4. Standard games will be played on a 6'x3' board, exactly like Runewars and Armada. Much like Runewars and Armada, most of the action will probably take place on a 3'x3' portion of the larger map.
This more than anything annoys me. Just let us use 6x4s or 4x4s like every other game.
I've seen both played... Legion is NOTHING like Imperial Assault. Imperial Assault is effectively Final Fantasy Tactics with Lightsabers. Legion isn't. They're very, very different games.
Imperial Assault = Descent in Space.
I think he was referring to Imperial Assault Skirmish Mode, rather than the campaign mode which is (as you said) Descent in Spaaaaaaaaace!
3. "Full" armies maybe. Realistic armies no. You will pretty much be forced to buy the stormtrooper pack, the speeder pack, the rebel trooper pack for the better upgrade cards that they will have. Its like every other FFG game. 2 core boxes is a good start, but no where near what you will actually want, or will it be enough ti play in any form of event/tourney.
The only reason to buy multiple starter boxes of any of the Star Wars games is for "volume" - I.E. getting a lot of stuff for cheap. Smart consumers should know well enough by now, however, that its better to invest in a single box and wait until individual expansions are available.
5. Other popular games have that though. This is nothing different. 40k has ITC, Warlords their own, etc.
40k ITC, etc. is not organized play, by virtue of the fact that its organized and run independently by a 3rd party, as opposed to by the publisher itself. Its like trying to argue that playing a Magic! The Gathering "tournament" in your friends basement is the equivalent of participating in protour or a sanctioned event organized by WotC with a team of their judges, etc.
lol, people crying because they don't get a free game. WOW.
I can't speak for Manchu.. but it seems to me like he understands the entire situation but thinks you guys are just being cheap/whiny.
As I said before.. why the eff would FFG care if you don't buy this game that you weren't going to buy because you expect to get it for free?
Stop looking at the boardgame pieces that came with IA as miniatures. I'm 100% sure that this is not at all how FFG views them. They are not a miniatures company and you didn't buy miniatures. You bought a game and it came with boardgame plastic pieces.
Oh no.. I can't use my Monopoly pieces in Sorry.. waaaaah waaaah waaaah.. this is getting tiresome.
Pretty much, the pieces from IA and the Fallout game and Doom game are literally boardgame pieces. They don't hold a candle to what GW has been doing for many years now. FFG had to design a whole new range of models because this is a model centered game, its supposed to be scenic and nice to look at.
I know if Legion was using IA models I would not have given it a second look. The AT-RT also isn't a big deal. The rebels are the type of people who would repurpose anything they can to use against the empire including the AT-RT. The Empire probably put those out of use because the pilot is so vulnerable but the rebels on the other hand will take what they can get.
And to be honest i'm already kind of bummed the Legion squads already have duplicate sculpts. Both of the stormtrooper and rebel squads look the same, regardless of individual sculpts in the unit. So even with this big leap from FFG in terms of what they've done in the past but its no GW quality either...but its acceptable for a starter.
I'm pretty much used to seeing complaining in every thread on every forum in existence tbh.
And to be honest i'm already kind of bummed the Legion squads already have duplicate sculpts. Both of the stormtrooper and rebel squads look the same, regardless of individual sculpts in the unit. So even with this big leap from FFG in terms of what they've done in the past but its no GW quality either...but its acceptable for a starter.
I think tacking on some 40k bits, that aren't too 40k, will make a big difference. Grenades, scopes, pouches, etc. Maybe knives and such on the Rebels.
Thargrim, you're definitely right about sculpt quality. I am pleased that Legion sqauds have nearly twice as many sculpts as RW ones. But yeah, FFG minis are no competition for GW ones. The SW license is the big draw. For people who aren't mini gamers, however, that kind of kit is overwhelming. And I think FFG is more interested in them than us "established" mini gamers.
TalonZahn, your shirt slogan is truly awesome but the graphic design needs to be more dour to match the reality of the slogan.
MLaw, maybe it's because I bought into IA myself - and never could seriously imagine using its components in miniature gaming. When I saw pics of painted IA pieces, it was like looking a painted Risk infantry. I know there are lots of board gamers who like painting the components but I have never really understood the appeal. Even with Legion, I don't have the same feeling about the figs needing to be painted as say, a sqaud of Adeptus Sororitas.
Adeptus Doritos, notice Vader is driving one of those economy vehicle as well. Must have been when the Empire was trying to save creds for Death Star II.
Manchu wrote: Adeptus Doritos, notice Vader is driving one of those economy vehicle as well. Must have been when the Empire was trying to save creds for Death Star II.
To be fair, he's not really -in- it. He's standing beside it, laughing to himself about the poor stupid putz he's cramming into it later.
While Star Wars is a MUCH bigger franchise, I can't help but wonder why no one has bothered to create a GI Joe miniatures wargame...
I mean, it's literally a universe full of vehicles, special characters, etc. You might have to make generic troops for the Joes and really dig into the old stuff for sub-factions, but you could certainly do it. But I doubt the appeal is big enough.
If the rules end up half way decent, I might actually get into this. It looks kind of like 40K, only set in the Star Wars universe. Seems like Fantasy Flight Games is really putting the squeeze on Games Workshop. X-wing is already outselling 40k & now they are moving in on their core audience. Will be interesting to see how GW responds. I think making custom Endor/Hoth terrain for Legion would be a ton of fun. If they add ewok, jawa, tusken raiders & bounty hunters I am definitely in.
John D Law wrote: Well there is supposedly a secret box coming to retailers on sept 1st from FFG related to Star Wars so we may see it up close soon!
There were rumours of a Star Wars version of the Warhammer Quest card game being rushed through and going directly to retail as a surprise release in September / October so the secret Star Wars item could be that (like how they released Mansions of Madness 2nd edition out of nowhere 2 years ago).
You know, it's stuff like this... I see it, and I'm like, "If these guys oppressed the entire Galaxy for decades, you kind of deserve the misery". How do you get out of that thing without falling? WHY WOULD YOU CARRY DUDES LIKE THIS?
Friggin, Empire, man.
Camo? Nah, let's paint everyone's armor white. Hey, remember that one time we fought on Hoth? Could happen again any day.
We've got the technology to make hovering tank vehicles armed to the teeth that are in no way restricted by any terrain at all. But we'll just make this colossal walking thing with like, four guns on it for no reason. And while we're at it, let's make a two-legged one to walk around the woods and trip over logs and rocks and stuff.
Hey, let's leave a glaring weakness in our most powerful, expensive weapon ever. I mean, we could literally send one guy up there with a steel grate or something to weld it closed, maybe look at that? Nah, there's no way those Bothans found out it's a weakness after they stole the plans.
There's no possible way Darth Vader's kid might be living on the same planet in the same area he came from using the same last name.
Guys we need to find the rebels. Let's send obnoxiously loud robots into random areas in groups of eight. We're not in a rush or anything. What's a 'scan'? Make those weird creepy droids just go look for random stuff in random parts of the galaxy.
You know what'd be a great idea? An absurdly fast jetbike in a dense forest.
Hey, let's leave a glaring weakness in our most powerful, expensive weapon ever. I mean, we could literally send one guy up there with a steel grate or something to weld it closed, maybe look at that? Nah, there's no way those Bothans found out it's a weakness after they stole the plans.
I see the point you are trying to make, but Bothans were the DSII, even before Rogue One the Bothans only did the DSII.
Manchu wrote: Hey pancakeonions, just sell your IA stuff. I bought all of IA up to Twin Shadows, played it and didn't like it. Sold it away to get at least some of my money back.
RE: Armada - I think you can only buy X-Wing staters at Target. You can get expansions at Barnes & Noble but they also sell Armada.
Certainly a possibility... But that's sooo much sunk time into painting those figures. And I've become quite attached to them after a while!
It's just weird weird weird that they purposely made Legion 10-20% bigger. There's just no sincere reason they can give (to make me believe, anyhow!)
Manchu wrote: Hey pancakeonions, just sell your IA stuff. I bought all of IA up to Twin Shadows, played it and didn't like it. Sold it away to get at least some of my money back.
RE: Armada - I think you can only buy X-Wing staters at Target. You can get expansions at Barnes & Noble but they also sell Armada.
Certainly a possibility... But that's sooo much sunk time into painting those figures. And I've become quite attached to them after a while!
It's just weird weird weird that they purposely made Legion 10-20% bigger. There's just no sincere reason they can give (to make me believe, anyhow!)
So they aren't releasing a game where a significant percentage of their potential customers already have the majority of an army for the only two factions 99.9% of people would ever bother with?
Manchu wrote: Hey pancakeonions, just sell your IA stuff. I bought all of IA up to Twin Shadows, played it and didn't like it. Sold it away to get at least some of my money back.
RE: Armada - I think you can only buy X-Wing staters at Target. You can get expansions at Barnes & Noble but they also sell Armada.
Certainly a possibility... But that's sooo much sunk time into painting those figures. And I've become quite attached to them after a while!
It's just weird weird weird that they purposely made Legion 10-20% bigger. There's just no sincere reason they can give (to make me believe, anyhow!)
So they aren't releasing a game where a significant percentage of their potential customers already have the majority of an army for the only two factions 99.9% of people would ever bother with?
At most they would have around 50% and that's really pushing it. They would he lots of character options for commanders though.
jake wrote: I wouldn't be surprised if we see the Crassus actually, considering that it showed up in Rebels more than once.
Yeah, although in Rebels the outer "crew slots" were ever only used to transport prisoners while the troopers used the interior (...and even then it looked kinda stupid xd).
LunarSol wrote: The worst part of Rogue One was having to constantly having to remind people that Bothans were only a part of DS2 when they complained.
Especially since the Bothans only got the progress report that DSII wasn't finished, and found out the Emperor was coming
jake wrote: I wouldn't be surprised if we see the Crassus actually, considering that it showed up in Rebels more than once.
Yeah, although in Rebels the outer "crew slots" were ever only used to transport prisoners while the troopers used the interior (...and even then it looked kinda stupid xd).
I am very interested in Legion, I love Star Wars and as long as it has a good variety of vehicles and diff troop choices I'll prob buy it.
I used to play the old WEG rpg back in the day and really liked the fluff of the European. Since they do have scum as a 3rd faction in x-wing, and it uses a fair amount of eu stuff. I think that they'll poach as much as they can to maximize the IP.
I just hope you guys aren't this harsh about Dewbacks. It's probably the worst choice for a mode of transportation but one of my favorites/most iconic from the films.
You're right, most people (IME) do use the actual cards - they came with the minis after all. (Plus, for all the complaints about too much clutter, I think many people like the tactility of components.) The notion of using a written out list instead makes sense, however, when you're just proxying stuff you don't have in a friendly game. Near as I can tell, there's really nothing to stop anyone from doing that, using IA figures they already own, if they want to try out Legion before buying.
So the remaining problem would be, what? that you can't use IA figs in Legion organized play? Kind of a "well duh" issue.
I live in San Diego and I'm not particularly active in the FLGS anymore but here there are definitely people who do not use official minis or even components if it will either a)save them money or b)keep them from having to paint more stuff.. As I said earlier, they've even gone so far as to make RW spinners for units they wanted more of or that haven't been released. I would imagine anyone with a sizeable Wizkids prepaint collection would probably also be interested in the cards for casual play but the point about the official events is spot on.. and even IA stuff would not seem likely to be allowed tbh. That said.. out of the people who have complained.. I'm curious about how many of them a)own IA in the first place, b)plan on playing in official events, c)would have bought this under any other condition (like.. literally what circumstances would they have not complained and just bought the game?). The fake outrage culture is out of hand.
I'm a miniatures gamer. I'm a lot of other things as well, but the one is the relevant one when discussing this topic.
I've got no problem buying models. Lots of fething models. I'd happily have bought Legion and then added both Official Expansion Packs as well as my IA models to the forces. I dislike the scale change for the new game immensely because I like my forces to have a reasonable consistency to them. This isn't a slow, GW-style scale creep over 30 years, but a deliberate move to limit compatibility across the two brands that feature what would otherwise be basically-identical models. I understand that it's their right as a business to do what they want, and it's my right as a consumer to not like their choice and vote accordingly with my wallet.
See, here's the thing. I know that I could very easily get hold of the printed components, the rules and any other "mechanical" components and run with my existing models (plus a pile of Hasbro prepaints) without needing to spend a cent beyond possibly a measuring stick and a set of dice - which will be sold separately because FFG always undersupplies those components but is always happy to sell you an aftermarket set. But.... I'd like to buy the new stuff and run them alongside without the jarring aesthetic issue of the figures being out of scale with their brethren. But hey, no biggie. Lots of other games out there, lots of other places to spend my time and money. It's Star Wars, set during the GCW. It's going to sell boatloads, so the loss of my individual business - regardless of how much I might spend as an individual - isn't going to amount to much.
Out of curiosity, what makes you assume the scale difference is about making sure IA and Legion are incompatible? As opposed to, say, FFG wanting more detailed, higher quality models and, because they aren't working with the same materials or expertise as (for example) GW, have to go with a bigger scale to achieve that? Also, does the scale difference truly make IA incompatible with Legion or is that, as you seem to imply, an idiosyncratic and subjective call on the part of each person?
It's actually not about this game, but a more general unwillingness to engage with you. I've spent the last hour or so reading through this thread and watching the way that you make your arguments, and I've noted the same in any number of other threads. You're also a Mod, which means I can't really place you on ignore despite not wanting to engage with you. Very telling, indeed!
The notion that FFG is acting out of greed and/or bad faith is an assumption rather than a self-evident fact. Why assume a company wants to screw over its customers if there are other reasonable explanations? I mean, screwing over customers is presumably something successful companies actually want to avoid. So attributing bad faith motives is also attributing self-destructive irrationality. This isn't just responding to your post, Azazelx, but to this attitude generally, which strikes me as a very odd reaction to great news. A hobby-oriented SW minis game is finally a reality!
As a lifelong SW fan, I have waited for this news for as long as I have been a miniatures gamer. Legion is by no means perfect for established mini gamers. We're talking about monopose PVC figures, after all; nothing like the quality of GW. But that's still better than WEG's metal monopose figs, the toy-like WotC pre-paints, or the board game pawns in Imperial Assault. More importantly, the gameplay looks very promising with many interesting decision points. Of course, FFG's component-heavy design is not for everyone. That, too, is something I can understand rubbing established mini gamers the wrong way.
If PVC figs, proprietary dice/measurement tools, and/or card-based rules layouts were not my thing, I'd be pretty disappointed with Legion. And of course even despite none of those things bothering me, FFGSW games like Imperial Assault and Armada just aren't for me. I bought em, tried em, and ended up selling them on. Maybe the same will be true with Legion. But I think it's a shame that folks might pass over Legion, especially those like me who have been waiting for it, because they read on message boards that the product is a sleazy cash grab.
I'm not actually interested in changing the minds of people who post that. If that's what you think, ok. But the counterpoint is worth posting alongside of it, too.
Commissar Benny wrote: If the rules end up half way decent, I might actually get into this. It looks kind of like 40K, only set in the Star Wars universe. Seems like Fantasy Flight Games is really putting the squeeze on Games Workshop. X-wing is already outselling 40k & now they are moving in on their core audience. Will be interesting to see how GW responds. I think making custom Endor/Hoth terrain for Legion would be a ton of fun. If they add ewok, jawa, tusken raiders & bounty hunters I am definitely in.
To be honest, I'm not sure this game's release will be distinguishable from random noise on GW's sales charts. People have to remember a dollar in FFG's pocket is not a dollar out of GW's. The ICV2 charts are simply a measure of what's selling the most, GW could be having a record profit year and never know they were in trouble because 40K slipped a spot to X-Wing if they never checked that website. Also given the difference in the products overall, it's just very hard to imagine 40K players giving up their HIPS plastic sculptures and abandoning a game they've been playing for years to exclusively embrace FFGs nice quality, game piece miniatures, and refined board game-like rules.
If 40K ever falters it will be because it becomes old hat to newer generations who just don't see its appeal, or it will get felled by a miniatures company who attacks them where they are actually vulnerable to competition, with the miniature collector crowd.
Legion need not lure away existing 40k players to threaten GW. The real hurt would be getting people new to wargaming before GW can. Even then, if I was in GW's position, I'd still consider more people getting into miniatures gaming to be a positive, overall.
Manchu wrote: The notion that FFG is acting out of greed and/or bad faith is an assumption rather than a self-evident fact. Why assume a company wants to screw over its customers if there are other reasonable explanations? I mean, screwing over customers is presumably something successful companies actually want to avoid. So attributing bad faith motives is also attributing self-destructive irrationality. This isn't just responding to your post, Azazelx, but to this attitude generally, which strikes me as a very odd reaction to great news. A hobby-oriented SW minis game is finally a reality!
I don't think a full minis game at Imperial Assault quality would have flown. I'm not entirely convinced the quality of this game is enough of an improvement, personally, but I assume FFG saw the need to have higher quality figures for a dedicated minis game.
I started to reply again about this being a boardgame.. but I re-read the elevator pitch in the first post
Fantasy Flight Games is proud to announce Star Wars™: Legion, a new miniatures game of infantry battles that invites you to join iconic heroes and villains, lead your troopers into battle, and battle for the fate of the Star Wars galaxy. With Star Wars: Legion, you can build and paint a unique army of miniatures. You can command your troops in battle and devise masterful tactics. And you can conquer your opponent’s army to bring victory to the light side or the dark side!
With thirty-three unpainted and easily assembled miniatures, and all the cards, movement tools, tokens, and terrain that you need for battle, the Star Wars: Legion Core Set is the perfect way to bring Star Wars battles to your tabletop.
In contrast, the FFG description for IA identifies that product pretty explicitly as a board game
Imperial Assault is a strategy board game of tactical combat and missions for two to five players, offering two distinct games of battle and adventure in the Star Wars™ universe..
and further down referencing the pieces as figures rather than miniatures.
Once a mission begins, players alternate activating a single figure or squad of figures. Each figure receives two actions to move, attack, open doors, investigate crates for useful supplies, or rest to recover strain and damage.
The entire description reads that way.
While it might seem like semantics.. I personally believe that Legion is meant to be not only a new product, but an entirely different approach (insofar as that can be said).
Giving FFG the benefit of the doubt, it's possible they wanted to take IA in a direction that those mechanics and the entire design philosophy simply would not allow for. Moreover, the emphasis placed on building and painting miniatures vs. the IA figures that were for the most part ready to go... To me that says the two products are meant to be aimed at different audiences, both from the style of play and the nature of the figures and miniatures respectively.
