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 LunarSol wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
I do like IA, but only the campaign game, and I'm hoping that the automatic Imperial player app makes it play more like Mansions of Madness, a game that's been a runaway hit with my group.

Is this something that's for sure happening? I've pretty much been holding onto my copy of IA on the hope that it would be a thing.

Last mention about it was at Gen Con. They said that it was happening and that it was in testing, but no hard date.

 Manchu wrote:

 Bossk_Hogg wrote:
Why exactly couldnt they have had IA upgrade decks for all the existing stuff?

That's easy.

I don't like IA. I already bought it. A whole lot of it. And sold it. I didn't like either the dungeon crawl or the skirmish. I do want to play a Star Wars miniatures game. Why should I have to buy all the IA stuff over again plus these upgrade expansions you're proposing, just to get to that?

Meanwhile, people who like IA can use all their IA stuff in IA, which is all they were ever entitled to as a matter of buying IA.

People who have IA stuff lose literally nothing as a result of Legion being a different game.

You're buying stuff either way though! So I guess it's just schadenfreude to want the rest of us to have to do the same?

 Bossk_Hogg wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Bossk_Hogg wrote:
Why exactly couldnt they have had IA upgrade decks for all the existing stuff?

That's easy.

I don't like IA. I already bought it. A whole lot of it. And sold it. I didn't like either the dungeon crawl or the skirmish. I do want to play a Star Wars miniatures game. Why should I have to buy all the IA stuff over again plus these upgrade expansions you're proposing, just to get to that?

Meanwhile, people who like IA can use all their IA stuff in IA, which is all they were ever entitled to as a matter of buying IA.

People who have IA stuff lose literally nothing as a result of Legion being a different game.

You're buying stuff either way though! So I guess it's just schadenfreude to want the rest of us to have to do the same?

I really don't get the expectation to have a free game on top of the game you bought.

You got the game you bought. You still have that game.

Now you have a new game you can either buy if you want to play it or not if you don't.

 Manchu wrote:
FFG is indeed financially motivated. Hard to criticize a company for that.

OK so I am trying to understand the "inconvenience" here.

Maybe it's a hard habit to break in your profession but you're incorrectly separating one point into its individual words in an effort to delegitimize the original point as a whole. No one is criticizing a for profit company for being financially motivated (least of all me and you're responding to my quote). I'm criticizing them for making an arbitrary decision that adds no inherent value to the consumer but instead only potentially inconviences them which in all likelihood was made based exclusively for their own short term financial gain. In any case, if you haven't already seen any shred of justifaction for why some folks might reasonably disagree with this as consumers after all these pages then there is no point in attempting to explain it (again).

Add in (other posters') incorrect attribution of extreme emotions not exhibited in this cordial (if stubborn) discussion and it might just be best if you used your red text mod to just end the discussion... after gettting in your mod perogative final word of course! I don't believe anyone will be convinced of anything further if they haven't already.

 Bossk_Hogg wrote:
You're buying stuff either way though! So I guess it's just schadenfreude to want the rest of us to have to do the same?

lolwut

No but really are you being serious? You think people who want to play Legion should have to buy IA? And at the same time your complaint about Legion is that you don't want to have to buy Legion to play it ...

 warboss wrote:
I'm criticizing them for making an arbitrary decision that adds no inherent value to the consumer but instead only potentially inconviences them which in all likelihood was made based exclusively for their own short term financial gain.

Can you explain why the decision is arbitrary? And as previously requested, can you explain the nature of the inconvenience?

 LunarSol wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
I do like IA, but only the campaign game, and I'm hoping that the automatic Imperial player app makes it play more like Mansions of Madness, a game that's been a runaway hit with my group.

Is this something that's for sure happening? I've pretty much been holding onto my copy of IA on the hope that it would be a thing.

At gencon this year, all they said was it's in progress. It's was supposed to come out at gencon. Per usual ffg though they found new shineys (l5r and legions) to focus their attention on.

So sure, an app may come out this year or next, but the life span of IA is completly on the sales of legions. They won't focus on both.

Manchu - honestly at this point your just not getting what's been said a million times. It's crappy for them not to keep ot same scale, as it can literally only help their profits. If it was sake scale, you could easily use the figs without scale issues and it would make tons more people who own IA buy into legions. Separating it like that it's FFG just acting like old GW. Being an arsehole just to be an arsehole and not care about your established customer base

If I had to but IA to play Legion this would be an autoskip, I very much do not like the figures in the IA sets, something about them just seems off to me.

No one is saying that you would have to buy IA to play legion, only if you already had IA then you could get an upgrade kit to use those models in Legion. People who only wanted to play legion would instead by the legion equivalent box which would come with more sculpts and look nicer on the table.

Miniature war games live or die based upon the player base. Having IA models be compatible would have given FFG an instant player base and most of them would have picked up additional IA boxes as well to get more units and more variety.

Why would they have bothered to change the sculpts that much if they were just gonna use IA models? They'd just repack them.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Why would they have bothered to change the sculpts that much if they were just gonna use IA models? They'd just repack them.

Because IA units come in a single sculpt and a large proportion of the war game community would want multiple poses.

Ok, make sense, but they likely wouldnt improve the models by much.

If Legion used IA quality sculpts that would be an instant hard pass for me. I like IA good enough as board game pieces, but not as TT minis.

As it is, I'm interested in Legions but waiting for more info on the quality of the models.

str00dles1 wrote:
At gencon this year, all they said was it's in progress. It's was supposed to come out at gencon. Per usual ffg though they found new shineys (l5r and legions) to focus their attention on.

Actually, it's only been announced, so far (it kinda sorta was announced last year's Gen Con, actually). FFG has never given a release date for it.

Not that we weren't hoping that it would be released in this year's Gen Con, though, but it was just that, a hope on our part.

Well I just hope we get some classic Kenner vehicles, then I can truly relive the Star Wars battles of my childhood....



http://www.starwars.com/news/offscreen-but-not-forgotten-mini-rigs-body-rigs-and-other-kenner-vehicles

 Ruglud wrote:
Well I just hope we get some classic Kenner vehicles, then I can truly relive the Star Wars battles of my childhood....



http://www.starwars.com/news/offscreen-but-not-forgotten-mini-rigs-body-rigs-and-other-kenner-vehicles

I would buy the game if it came with those.

I like a lot of those little vehicles. Someone on the FFG forum mentioned the MTV-7 is already in the LCG.

str00dles1 - honestly, is the real issue organized play? again, there is no scale-related reason you can't use IA figs as proxies in friendly games of Legion

 Manchu wrote:
I like a lot of those little vehicles. Someone on the FFG forum mentioned the MTV-7 is already in the LCG.

str00dles1 - honestly, is the real issue organized play? again, there is no scale-related reason you can't use IA figs as proxies in friendly games of Legion

I didn't say organized play, not even once...

Model scale is the issue, which is what everyone else is saying. I don't give a flying fart over organized play. They are vastly different. There's picture proof. Its like taking an Infinity figure to a Primaris Marine. This can easily cause line of sigh issues/cover issues. All the terrain being made is 32mm+. Friendly game or not, line of sight can cause issues. Also lets say you did buy the core, and as using IA to fill out more points. Models vastly different scales stick out and don't look good on a table. I don't know how long you have played minis games, but its well known and a common theme for all minis games to be in correct scale with each other.

 Manchu wrote:
The only minis with notched bases in the core box are the vehicles.

You will note I specified "larger models"

The AT-RT from the core box is from the PT.

Irrelevant, its not crewed by a clonetrooper. Its also justified by canon due to its usage by the rebels in Star Wars: Commander (which ignores the fact that the Empire also used them in an issue of the Darth Vader comic series).

so getting an AT-TE or some of that other stuff doesn't strike me as out of the question.

Well, Rex & co. did show up with an AT-TE in Rebels...

One major reason the Rebel Alliance (many armies and armadas joined together similar to the Allies or Axis in either WW) always seem so scattered and under-equipped, is because they were getting their asses kicked.

Not exactly. If you read Twilight Company you find that the Rebellion actually did go on major organized military offensives and managed to occupy/liberate a large number of worlds, managing to advance from the outer rim well into the mid rim (although they did later get their asses kicked and were forced to retreat back into the outer rim).

Keep in mind too that the idea of a Rebellion started basically in Episode 3. Luke Skywalker was 19 when Ep IV happened. So in less than 20 years they've mobilized an Armada and established a roving command.

The Rebellion didn't really start until a couple years prior to A New Hope. While there was an idea there as early as Episode 3, thats all it really - an idea. There were no military forces or command hierarchy, etc. Just recruiting efforts and small attempts to undermine the Empire.0 There were a handful of resistance movements spread across the galaxy (Free Ryloth Movement, for example) but they were highly localized and organized independently of one another, and otherwise entirely unrelated to Mon Mothma/Bail Organa and the Delegation of 2,000. Many (but not all) of these cells would later be organized together in secret by Bail and Mon Mothma through Fulcrum agents, so as to better coordinate their efforts against the Empire, but that process didn't really kick off until more than a decade after the fall of the Republic.

I suppose you think that GW should have made Space Hulk at 40mm scale?

To be fair, the minis for space hulk are a different scale....

A couple of points - Hoth was one army shorn of most of its equipment due to the conditions. Endor was their main fleet but not everything they had just everything they coud lay hands on at short notice.

Correct - although point of order - it was everything that they could scrap together on short notice that wasn't being committed to diversionary attacks intended to lure the Imperial Fleet away from the Endor. The Rebel Fleet (and indeed the Rebel Army) was *much* larger than what we've seen on screen. Seriously, people need to read Twilight Company to understand.

On the subject of kit and equipment owned/ used by both the Alliance and the Empire, I always liked the work done by West End Games in the sourcebooks for the roleplaying game.

Conveniently, as per Pablo Hidalgo (who also worked on the West End RPG), the West End RPG has served as a significant inspiration and a partial component for the modern post-Disney Star Wars bible (i.e. production notes and guidelines used by production staff to make sure that what they are doing fits the lore and setting).

4. Standard games will be played on a 6'x3' board, exactly like Runewars and Armada. Much like Runewars and Armada, most of the action will probably take place on a 3'x3' portion of the larger map.

This more than anything annoys me. Just let us use 6x4s or 4x4s like every other game.

I've seen both played... Legion is NOTHING like Imperial Assault. Imperial Assault is effectively Final Fantasy Tactics with Lightsabers. Legion isn't. They're very, very different games.

Imperial Assault = Descent in Space.

I think he was referring to Imperial Assault Skirmish Mode, rather than the campaign mode which is (as you said) Descent in Spaaaaaaaaace!

3. "Full" armies maybe. Realistic armies no. You will pretty much be forced to buy the stormtrooper pack, the speeder pack, the rebel trooper pack for the better upgrade cards that they will have. Its like every other FFG game. 2 core boxes is a good start, but no where near what you will actually want, or will it be enough ti play in any form of event/tourney.

The only reason to buy multiple starter boxes of any of the Star Wars games is for "volume" - I.E. getting a lot of stuff for cheap. Smart consumers should know well enough by now, however, that its better to invest in a single box and wait until individual expansions are available.

5. Other popular games have that though. This is nothing different. 40k has ITC, Warlords their own, etc.

40k ITC, etc. is not organized play, by virtue of the fact that its organized and run independently by a 3rd party, as opposed to by the publisher itself. Its like trying to argue that playing a Magic! The Gathering "tournament" in your friends basement is the equivalent of participating in protour or a sanctioned event organized by WotC with a team of their judges, etc.

lol, people crying because they don't get a free game. WOW.
I can't speak for Manchu.. but it seems to me like he understands the entire situation but thinks you guys are just being cheap/whiny.
As I said before.. why the eff would FFG care if you don't buy this game that you weren't going to buy because you expect to get it for free?

Stop looking at the boardgame pieces that came with IA as miniatures. I'm 100% sure that this is not at all how FFG views them. They are not a miniatures company and you didn't buy miniatures. You bought a game and it came with boardgame plastic pieces.

Oh no.. I can't use my Monopoly pieces in Sorry.. waaaaah waaaah waaaah.. this is getting tiresome.

Pretty much, the pieces from IA and the Fallout game and Doom game are literally boardgame pieces. They don't hold a candle to what GW has been doing for many years now. FFG had to design a whole new range of models because this is a model centered game, its supposed to be scenic and nice to look at.

I know if Legion was using IA models I would not have given it a second look. The AT-RT also isn't a big deal. The rebels are the type of people who would repurpose anything they can to use against the empire including the AT-RT. The Empire probably put those out of use because the pilot is so vulnerable but the rebels on the other hand will take what they can get.

And to be honest i'm already kind of bummed the Legion squads already have duplicate sculpts. Both of the stormtrooper and rebel squads look the same, regardless of individual sculpts in the unit. So even with this big leap from FFG in terms of what they've done in the past but its no GW quality either...but its acceptable for a starter.

I'm pretty much used to seeing complaining in every thread on every forum in existence tbh.

 Thargrim wrote:

And to be honest i'm already kind of bummed the Legion squads already have duplicate sculpts. Both of the stormtrooper and rebel squads look the same, regardless of individual sculpts in the unit. So even with this big leap from FFG in terms of what they've done in the past but its no GW quality either...but its acceptable for a starter.

I think tacking on some 40k bits, that aren't too 40k, will make a big difference. Grenades, scopes, pouches, etc. Maybe knives and such on the Rebels.

 Ruglud wrote:
Well I just hope we get some classic Kenner vehicles, then I can truly relive the Star Wars battles of my childhood....



http://www.starwars.com/news/offscreen-but-not-forgotten-mini-rigs-body-rigs-and-other-kenner-vehicles

Literally every vehicle in that picture strikes me as "Things you get stuck driving when you step on Vader's cape".

Thargrim, you're definitely right about sculpt quality. I am pleased that Legion sqauds have nearly twice as many sculpts as RW ones. But yeah, FFG minis are no competition for GW ones. The SW license is the big draw. For people who aren't mini gamers, however, that kind of kit is overwhelming. And I think FFG is more interested in them than us "established" mini gamers.

TalonZahn, your shirt slogan is truly awesome but the graphic design needs to be more dour to match the reality of the slogan.

MLaw, maybe it's because I bought into IA myself - and never could seriously imagine using its components in miniature gaming. When I saw pics of painted IA pieces, it was like looking a painted Risk infantry. I know there are lots of board gamers who like painting the components but I have never really understood the appeal. Even with Legion, I don't have the same feeling about the figs needing to be painted as say, a sqaud of Adeptus Sororitas.

Adeptus Doritos, notice Vader is driving one of those economy vehicle as well. Must have been when the Empire was trying to save creds for Death Star II.

 Manchu wrote:
Adeptus Doritos, notice Vader is driving one of those economy vehicle as well. Must have been when the Empire was trying to save creds for Death Star II.

To be fair, he's not really -in- it. He's standing beside it, laughing to himself about the poor stupid putz he's cramming into it later.

Nah, that's totally his '83 Fiat Lambda.

 Manchu wrote:
Nah, that's totally his '83 Fiat Lambda.

To be fair, it is a convertible and probably comes with a cassette player... the original still kicking that 8-track.

Well now I want really one in Legion.

BTW here's FFG's MTV-7:

While Star Wars is a MUCH bigger franchise, I can't help but wonder why no one has bothered to create a GI Joe miniatures wargame...

I mean, it's literally a universe full of vehicles, special characters, etc. You might have to make generic troops for the Joes and really dig into the old stuff for sub-factions, but you could certainly do it. But I doubt the appeal is big enough.

Well there is supposedly a secret box coming to retailers on sept 1st from FFG related to Star Wars so we may see it up close soon!

If the rules end up half way decent, I might actually get into this. It looks kind of like 40K, only set in the Star Wars universe. Seems like Fantasy Flight Games is really putting the squeeze on Games Workshop. X-wing is already outselling 40k & now they are moving in on their core audience. Will be interesting to see how GW responds. I think making custom Endor/Hoth terrain for Legion would be a ton of fun. If they add ewok, jawa, tusken raiders & bounty hunters I am definitely in.