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 MLaw wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Kriswall,

You're right, most people (IME) do use the actual cards - they came with the minis after all. (Plus, for all the complaints about too much clutter, I think many people like the tactility of components.) The notion of using a written out list instead makes sense, however, when you're just proxying stuff you don't have in a friendly game. Near as I can tell, there's really nothing to stop anyone from doing that, using IA figures they already own, if they want to try out Legion before buying.

So the remaining problem would be, what? that you can't use IA figs in Legion organized play? Kind of a "well duh" issue.

I live in San Diego and I'm not particularly active in the FLGS anymore but here there are definitely people who do not use official minis or even components if it will either a)save them money or b)keep them from having to paint more stuff.. As I said earlier, they've even gone so far as to make RW spinners for units they wanted more of or that haven't been released. I would imagine anyone with a sizeable Wizkids prepaint collection would probably also be interested in the cards for casual play but the point about the official events is spot on.. and even IA stuff would not seem likely to be allowed tbh. That said.. out of the people who have complained.. I'm curious about how many of them a)own IA in the first place, b)plan on playing in official events, c)would have bought this under any other condition (like.. literally what circumstances would they have not complained and just bought the game?). The fake outrage culture is out of hand.

I agree. This outrage is weird. It's a $90 core box that includes everything you need to play. If you like the game, there will be more of it in the future in the form of expansion packs. It's almost like people are furious that they're being asked to buy the game to be able to play the game? If you don't think the game has value, don't buy it. If you think you'll be able to play it in a meaningful way without buying it, prepare to be disappointed. If you think you'll be able to play it using components from an entirely different game, prepare to be disappointed.

 Kriswall wrote:

 MLaw wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Kriswall,

You're right, most people (IME) do use the actual cards - they came with the minis after all. (Plus, for all the complaints about too much clutter, I think many people like the tactility of components.) The notion of using a written out list instead makes sense, however, when you're just proxying stuff you don't have in a friendly game. Near as I can tell, there's really nothing to stop anyone from doing that, using IA figures they already own, if they want to try out Legion before buying.

So the remaining problem would be, what? that you can't use IA figs in Legion organized play? Kind of a "well duh" issue.

I live in San Diego and I'm not particularly active in the FLGS anymore but here there are definitely people who do not use official minis or even components if it will either a)save them money or b)keep them from having to paint more stuff.. As I said earlier, they've even gone so far as to make RW spinners for units they wanted more of or that haven't been released. I would imagine anyone with a sizeable Wizkids prepaint collection would probably also be interested in the cards for casual play but the point about the official events is spot on.. and even IA stuff would not seem likely to be allowed tbh. That said.. out of the people who have complained.. I'm curious about how many of them a)own IA in the first place, b)plan on playing in official events, c)would have bought this under any other condition (like.. literally what circumstances would they have not complained and just bought the game?). The fake outrage culture is out of hand.

I agree. This outrage is weird. It's a $90 core box that includes everything you need to play. If you like the game, there will be more of it in the future in the form of expansion packs. It's almost like people are furious that they're being asked to buy the game to be able to play the game? If you don't think the game has value, don't buy it. If you think you'll be able to play it in a meaningful way without buying it, prepare to be disappointed. If you think you'll be able to play it using components from an entirely different game, prepare to be disappointed.

You forgot, If you've played any other minis game/board game with minis from FFG, don't expect much new here, just more Star Wars!

I'm one of the complainers! Waaa!

I have IA, and everything in wave 1 (except that second ATST with the dude on top) and painted it all up. I wasn't interested in the campaign, only skirmish. But ... I didn't like IA skirmish (this is after buying and painting everything, lol)

So I'm a bit annoyed that my IA figures will look strange alongside the new, larger Legion figures. I'll either rebase the Lesion figures on flat, renedra style bases, or just suck it up. If it looks really weird, I'll grumpily shell out money for a bunch of new, Legion stuff.

Oh, and to the guy claiming that Armada isn't as popular as all that...

str00dles1 wrote:

...
6. I'll give you X wing is the most popular, as how available it is, no building, already painted, not that many purchases needed and takes up little space. Armada? No even close dude. Vastly more expensive, takes up twice the space, you only find it in actual game stores (not target like x wing) takes vastly more time to play, and highly more complex. I don't know where you got this "fact" from but its no where near one of the most popular.

...

Armada has been in the top five best selling non collectible minis games for some time now. So there!

https://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/33912/top-5-non-collectible-miniature-games-fall-2015

https://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/38061/top-5-non-collectible-miniature-games-spring-2017

str00dles1 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 MLaw wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Kriswall,

You're right, most people (IME) do use the actual cards - they came with the minis after all. (Plus, for all the complaints about too much clutter, I think many people like the tactility of components.) The notion of using a written out list instead makes sense, however, when you're just proxying stuff you don't have in a friendly game. Near as I can tell, there's really nothing to stop anyone from doing that, using IA figures they already own, if they want to try out Legion before buying.

So the remaining problem would be, what? that you can't use IA figs in Legion organized play? Kind of a "well duh" issue.

I live in San Diego and I'm not particularly active in the FLGS anymore but here there are definitely people who do not use official minis or even components if it will either a)save them money or b)keep them from having to paint more stuff.. As I said earlier, they've even gone so far as to make RW spinners for units they wanted more of or that haven't been released. I would imagine anyone with a sizeable Wizkids prepaint collection would probably also be interested in the cards for casual play but the point about the official events is spot on.. and even IA stuff would not seem likely to be allowed tbh. That said.. out of the people who have complained.. I'm curious about how many of them a)own IA in the first place, b)plan on playing in official events, c)would have bought this under any other condition (like.. literally what circumstances would they have not complained and just bought the game?). The fake outrage culture is out of hand.

I agree. This outrage is weird. It's a $90 core box that includes everything you need to play. If you like the game, there will be more of it in the future in the form of expansion packs. It's almost like people are furious that they're being asked to buy the game to be able to play the game? If you don't think the game has value, don't buy it. If you think you'll be able to play it in a meaningful way without buying it, prepare to be disappointed. If you think you'll be able to play it using components from an entirely different game, prepare to be disappointed.

You forgot, If you've played any other minis game/board game with minis from FFG, don't expect much new here, just more Star Wars!

Well... Legion is completely unlike Imperial Assault. The main similarity is that there are Stormtroopers in both. It's also unlike Runewars. Really, FFG doesn't have a game quite like Legion. Yes, there are custom dice and keyword abilities. Yes, it will be very easy to learn for anyone who has played other FFG games. However... to say that the game won't bring anything new to the table isn't a fair statement.

Hey pancakeonions, just sell your IA stuff. I bought all of IA up to Twin Shadows, played it and didn't like it. Sold it away to get at least some of my money back.

RE: Armada - I think you can only buy X-Wing staters at Target. You can get expansions at Barnes & Noble but they also sell Armada.

 Kriswall wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 MLaw wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Kriswall,

You're right, most people (IME) do use the actual cards - they came with the minis after all. (Plus, for all the complaints about too much clutter, I think many people like the tactility of components.) The notion of using a written out list instead makes sense, however, when you're just proxying stuff you don't have in a friendly game. Near as I can tell, there's really nothing to stop anyone from doing that, using IA figures they already own, if they want to try out Legion before buying.

So the remaining problem would be, what? that you can't use IA figs in Legion organized play? Kind of a "well duh" issue.

I live in San Diego and I'm not particularly active in the FLGS anymore but here there are definitely people who do not use official minis or even components if it will either a)save them money or b)keep them from having to paint more stuff.. As I said earlier, they've even gone so far as to make RW spinners for units they wanted more of or that haven't been released. I would imagine anyone with a sizeable Wizkids prepaint collection would probably also be interested in the cards for casual play but the point about the official events is spot on.. and even IA stuff would not seem likely to be allowed tbh. That said.. out of the people who have complained.. I'm curious about how many of them a)own IA in the first place, b)plan on playing in official events, c)would have bought this under any other condition (like.. literally what circumstances would they have not complained and just bought the game?). The fake outrage culture is out of hand.

I agree. This outrage is weird. It's a $90 core box that includes everything you need to play. If you like the game, there will be more of it in the future in the form of expansion packs. It's almost like people are furious that they're being asked to buy the game to be able to play the game? If you don't think the game has value, don't buy it. If you think you'll be able to play it in a meaningful way without buying it, prepare to be disappointed. If you think you'll be able to play it using components from an entirely different game, prepare to be disappointed.

You forgot, If you've played any other minis game/board game with minis from FFG, don't expect much new here, just more Star Wars!

Well... Legion is completely unlike Imperial Assault. The main similarity is that there are Stormtroopers in both. It's also unlike Runewars. Really, FFG doesn't have a game quite like Legion. Yes, there are custom dice and keyword abilities. Yes, it will be very easy to learn for anyone who has played other FFG games. However... to say that the game won't bring anything new to the table isn't a fair statement.

I did say don't expect much. Yes, there are new things, but at the core? Not so much. Uses special dice(which uses hits/shields/and surges like all their other games), movement templates, measuring sticks, millions of tokens, stat cards, upgrades for stat cards, arcs of fire. All of that is what almost all of their games use.

You have suppression fire and how units activate that's different, though really, I cant say most of your units going randomly is an enjoyable thing,. Not the best "fog of war" mechanic ive seen

Wondering if you think that using d6s, a measuring tape, and using army books would make Legion more novel?

As to random activation - not sure if you have learned how it works in Legion but there is a trade off: activate more units but risk losing priority or try to get priority in exchange for not getting to choose as many units to activate. The units you don't activate with your command card for that turn are activated sort of randomly, in that you draw activation tokens by rank. You can game this a bit by activating everything that is not X type of unit with your card - that way everything left to activate is the same rank and its no longer random.

It looks like each unit type has its own icon, which is shared with all units of that type, so if you take a lot of stormtrooper squads does that mean if any stormtrooper token comes up to activate, can you activate any of them?

Also, it's only random if you don't use a command card to make their activations not random.

In typical FFG fashion, a lot of early stuff they put out, such as those command cards, are pretty bland and vanilla. But considering commanders come come with their own command cards, and they're used up once used, there's a lot of opportunity here.

I get why there's complaints, but while some people see more of the same, I actually see a lot of interesting innovation in terms of activation mechanics while building on traditional miniature game ideas. The board/card components are a part of that.

These very ideas I'm probably going to take a lot from when updating my own rules sets. Makes me wonder how it'd work in a system that's not based around components like FFGs game.

If someone didn't like Skirmish or FFG's mechanics.. then why in the FFFFFFFF would they buy Legions (or care that they can't play it)??? Seriously?

ALSO.. if you want a skirmish game that's slightly more traditional.. just hit up ebay for the WEG tabletop game. I bought it for my son a while back. Or check out the SWM rules. Or use your IA with rules from One Page Rules.. or proxy them as 40k units. I mean.. FFS people. Someone get some cheese and crackers.. there's a loooooot of whine in here

Manchu wrote:As to random activation - not sure if you have learned how it works in Legion but there is a trade off: activate more units but risk losing priority or try to get priority in exchange for not getting to choose as many units to activate. The units you don't activate with your command card for that turn are activated sort of randomly, in that you draw activation tokens by rank. You can game this a bit by activating everything that is not X type of unit with your card - that way everything left to activate is the same rank and its no longer random.

That's most certainly possible to do, yeah, but remember that by default you can only issue orders to units within range 1-3 of the issuing commander, so either you'll need to keep the stuff you want to issue orders to near the commander or you'll need to buy long range commlinks.

Vertrucio wrote:It looks like each unit type has its own icon, which is shared with all units of that type, so if you take a lot of stormtrooper squads does that mean if any stormtrooper token comes up to activate, can you activate any of them?

Yes, each unit has a rank that you use when issuing orders, and that during army creation define the amount of units of each rank that you can buy. The ranks defined in the core are Commander (1-2), Corps (3-6), Special Forces (0-3), Support (0-3) and Heavy (0-2).

Vertrucio wrote:It looks like each unit type has its own icon, which is shared with all units of that type, so if you take a lot of stormtrooper squads does that mean if any stormtrooper token comes up to activate, can you activate any of them?

Yes, each unit has a rank that you use when issuing orders, and that during army creation define the amount of units of each rank that you can buy. The ranks defined in the core are Commander (1-2), Corps (3-6), Special Forces (0-3), Support (0-3) and Heavy (0-2).

Vertrucio,

The stormtroopers squads are "Corps" so if you draw a Corps token then you can activate any unit of stormtroopers that hasn't already been activated that turn.

In the Team Covenant vid, the guy playing Imperials (don't know those fine gents' names) played a command card that let him activate two units and he chose Vader and the Speeder Bikes. Therefore, when it came to the "random" activation, it wasn't random at all for him - he only had the Stormies left.

I like how there is room here for a lot of decision points.

Albertorius,

Thinking about rank diversity and whether to use upgrades like Long Range Comlinks during army building is one of those interesting decision points. It's a little bit like building a LCG/CCG deck, in a way.

 MLaw wrote:
If someone didn't like Skirmish or FFG's mechanics.. then why in the FFFFFFFF would they buy Legions (or care that they can't play it)??? Seriously?

ALSO.. if you want a skirmish game that's slightly more traditional.. just hit up ebay for the WEG tabletop game. I bought it for my son a while back. Or check out the SWM rules. Or use your IA with rules from One Page Rules.. or proxy them as 40k units. I mean.. FFS people. Someone get some cheese and crackers.. there's a loooooot of whine in here

IA and Legions are very different games. I don't like IA Skirmish, but I love 40k. Legion is Star Wars 40k with FFG mechanics.

Man, I can't believe Manchu didn't plug the sick shirt I made him.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0753DN77J

I still say they missed the boat not making these either compatible with IA scale or something smaller like Epic, instead of "just a bit outside" of what they have.

I think the concern from gamers is pretty legitimate here.

With FFG getting in a bit of trouble for making a Star Wars boardgame (something they're apparently not allowed to do) it seems they've decided to go whole-hog on a miniature wargame based in Star Wars --- something they are allowed to do with their current licensing.

I have seen dozens and dozens of excellent hobby threads where people bought into IA - and it seems predominantly for the miniatures. There are loads of painted "armies" so to speak and a lot of fine collections. I can understand fully why someone with a fully painted IA collection would be more than a little miffed than an entire new line is coming out - not in scale with their stuff.

This would have been a shockingly easy way for FFG to actually build some rapport with their gamers...but instead they've gone the other direction. Add to it that it's possible FFG will now dump IA (I think this'll occur depending on how much trouble they're in for making a proper board game with the Star Wars IP) and you end up with a bunch of gamers who feel jilted.

I think that is a perfectly logical gripe and something FFG should have considered more heavily. It's easy to piss off customers or potential customers - and far harder to keep them or attract them. This would have been an easy win for them, converting the IA players into the Legion fold as it were.

No one here seems to be whining or crying like a baby - just expressing logical frustration.

 Thargrim wrote:
IA is a board game, Legion is a tabletop miniature wargame. It makes sense they would make new and better/more detailed models because the models are a lot more key than the more gamepiece style of IA. The butthurt of people complaining they aren't cross compatible is just amusing. Brand new game=new models not a big surprise. X wing and Armada also are not compatible.

The comparison of IA and Legion to X-Wing and Armada might be stronger if Legion was done in 6-10mm scale (which would actually fire me up, as it would allow you to field multiple AT-ATs, Drone Tanks or other really big things against swarms of infantry). Creating a new game that uses miniatures that are almost the same scale, to fight battles that are almost the same as the IA in skirmish mode, makes less of a case for the need for incompatible miniatures.

I personally have no interest in any prequel related stuff.

The prequel trilogy poisoned that well for me. I wouldn't mind seeing some "Clone Wars" material introduced into the game (as I think is coming in the next IA expansion).

And seeing as how we're coming up on the second movie of a new modern trilogy with the resistance vs FO. I kind of would like to see that era get a little more attention in a while after this game is established. Though I know they'd rather tug on everyones nostalgia with the GCW first.

Other than the named characters, and black stormtroopers, is there really anything new in the third trilogy that could be incorporated into the Legion game?

I can't understand why anyone would expect FFG to develop a new product line that could be played by people who purchased some separate product line.

People who bought IA can use the IA components including the miniatures to play IA. What more is a customer entitled to?

 Elbows wrote:
I think the concern from gamers is pretty legitimate here.

With FFG getting in a bit of trouble for making a Star Wars boardgame (something they're apparently not allowed to do) it seems they've decided to go whole-hog on a miniature wargame based in Star Wars --- something they are allowed to do with their current licensing.

Wait. Are you saying that they published a board game (IA), four boxed expansions with a fifth up for preorder, along with a couple dozen figure packs with again 3-4 more up for preorder, over the last three years and they are "not allowed" to do that???

 Kriswall wrote:

The fake outrage culture is out of hand.

I agree. This outrage is weird. It's a $90 core box that includes everything you need to play. If you like the game, there will be more of it in the future in the form of expansion packs. It's almost like people are furious that they're being asked to buy the game to be able to play the game? If you don't think the game has value, don't buy it. If you think you'll be able to play it in a meaningful way without buying it, prepare to be disappointed. If you think you'll be able to play it using components from an entirely different game, prepare to be disappointed.

Outrage? It's more accurately described as annoyance at FFG's latest financially motivated inconvienencing of and casual disregard for some of their customers exacerbated by folks on dakka who refuse to call a spade a spade here in this thread. If anything, commentary like this as well as those showing a complete lack of empathy and refusal to see any merit in the grevienances just make it worse. I certainly won't be buying any of it but the deliberate and unnecessary scale change just further cemented the already made decision rather than influencing it. Ymmv.

Despite the funky movement tool, which seems like it would be awkward in a skirmish game with terrain everywhere, this actually looks pretty sweet.

I've seen a few side by side pictures with IA stuff and most of it looks fine with a re basing.

While I don't always like every mechanic FFG does, I do really appreciate that they actually try something new with their games. Whjle not an auto-buy for me, I'm going to keep my eye on this one.

 Manchu wrote:
And it's a foolish complaint because even if the size was the same they would still have to buy Legion stuff to play Legion.

But only packs, dials, chits, etc. Moreover, what you keep constantly ignoring, is it reboots the release schedule, so it's going to take even longer to get more new stuff, when what they already had was perfectly fine to repurpose as legion releases going forward. It's clearly just a money grab to sell Luke twice, rather than IA Luke and a Legion Luke card pack. You want to pretend they cant from some vague rumor regarding IA's licensing agreement.

You want Thrawn in Legion? Too bad. Time to re-release Han, Vader, etc. And after they burn through the easy sales on popular main characters, get ready for 40mm Legion in 2020.

FFG is indeed financially motivated. Hard to criticize a company for that.

OK so I am trying to understand the "inconvenience" here. If you want to use Legion figs with IA, you can. If you want to proxy IA figs in Legion for friendly games, you can. Does the slight scale difference make the thought of doing so utterly repugnant? If so, how did you ever stand IA figures in the first place? And moreover, wouldn't that be your quirk rather than anything to do with FFG? Now, there is a problem with vehicle incompatibility but that is a problem with the bases, not with the scale difference.

Is the "inconvenience" that you cannot use IA figs in official Legion events and vice versa? Why would anyone have expected to? The purpose of organized play is to drive sales of a specific product line.

Or is the inconvenience totally unrelated to playing any FFG game and it's just a matter of people wanting the figs for their own purposes? If so, why not just keep buying IA figures? If you don't care about playing IA or Legion then what does it matter if the scales are different?

 mdauben wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
I think the concern from gamers is pretty legitimate here.

With FFG getting in a bit of trouble for making a Star Wars boardgame (something they're apparently not allowed to do) it seems they've decided to go whole-hog on a miniature wargame based in Star Wars --- something they are allowed to do with their current licensing.

Wait. Are you saying that they published a board game (IA), four boxed expansions with a fifth up for preorder, along with a couple dozen figure packs with again 3-4 more up for preorder, over the last three years and they are "not allowed" to do that???

That's the scuttlebutt...apparently Hasbro maintains the board game rights for the Star Wars IP and that's why FFG shoe-horned "skirmish" rules into the original IA, etc...so, in short - perhaps?

Manchu, despite your continued attempts to belittle people for their opinions - you do understand that scale is a big deal to wargamers? The products will be generally incompatible with each other, and for little reason.

 Bossk_Hogg wrote:
Moreover, what you keep constantly ignoring, is it reboots the release schedule

 Manchu wrote:
Because IA and Legion are separate games, the "production clock" you are talking about will be reset no matter what size the figures are.

 Manchu wrote:

 Bossk_Hogg wrote:
Moreover, what you keep constantly ignoring, is it reboots the release schedule

 Manchu wrote:
Because IA and Legion are separate games, the "production clock" you are talking about will be reset no matter what size the figures are.

There was no reason other than cash grab to MAKE them separate products. Why exactly couldnt they have had IA upgrade decks for all the existing stuff? Oh right, greed and unsubstantiated rumors that you take to mean they can't.

 Elbows wrote:
That's the scuttlebutt...apparently Hasbro maintains the board game rights for the Star Wars IP and that's why FFG shoe-horned "skirmish" rules into the original IA, etc...so, in short - perhaps?

As far as I know, that's only a rumor and nothing more. I asked, and people looked at me like I was on crack.

 Manchu wrote:
FFG is indeed financially motivated. Hard to criticize a company for that.

You must be new. Welcome to the internet! Here, its pretty easy to criticize anything you want.

 Bossk_Hogg wrote:
Why exactly couldnt they have had IA upgrade decks for all the existing stuff?

That's easy.

I don't like IA. I already bought it. A whole lot of it. And sold it. I didn't like either the dungeon crawl or the skirmish. I do want to play a Star Wars miniatures game. Why should I have to buy all the IA stuff over again plus these upgrade expansions you're proposing, just to get to that?

Meanwhile, people who like IA can use all their IA stuff in IA, which is all they were ever entitled to as a matter of buying IA.

People who have IA stuff lose literally nothing as a result of Legion being a different game.

I do like IA, but only the campaign game, and I'm hoping that the automatic Imperial player app makes it play more like Mansions of Madness, a game that's been a runaway hit with my group.

I also plan on using whatever IA stuff I can on Legion, if we end up playing consistently. But as I said abovethread, my particular use case is that we'll be playing at my home, and I don't do LGS nor tournaments.

 Albertorius wrote:
I do like IA, but only the campaign game, and I'm hoping that the automatic Imperial player app makes it play more like Mansions of Madness, a game that's been a runaway hit with my group.

Is this something that's for sure happening? I've pretty much been holding onto my copy of IA on the hope that it would be a thing.