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 Sqorgar wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
@Sqorgar

I have no doubt that FFG has a huge, huge interest in portraying RW and Legion as easier to get into than most miniature gaming. But it's not really true, just as a matter of miniatures. Consider the vast amount of cheap, one piece metal WW2 miniatures that make up a huge part of actual miniatures gaming.

It's not just the number of parts though. The miniatures themselves are designed to be easy to paint. Their designs are built around 4 primary colors, with details being rather sparse and large - you don't need a size 0 brush to paint anything in Runewars. I'd wager that's why Legion is a bigger scale than Imperial Assault - IA wasn't meant to be painted.

So 40K is "lite". Space Marines fit that category nicely.
I guess AoS is also "lite" because of those Sigmarine things.

I suppose you ought to head to real life and explain to the ACW enthusiast who's painted a union army of 1000's of figures in mainly blue, and plays a game that takes days to complete that his wargame is "lite".

I think "lite" belittles anyone's wargame. Prepainted or not. Simple rules or not. All have strategy and choice in the game making them wargames.

 Manchu wrote:
The only intimidating thing about miniatures gaming that deserves to be intimidating is the dollar and time cost. Painting minis to tabletop standard is, as most mini gamers know, all about learning a few simple techniques. FFG is marketing Runewars as approachable, especially in contrast to the dominant mini game force GW. One aspect of this is how the "studio" miniatures are presented. GW takes great pride in painting up their display/marketing models to a beautiful but (for most of us) unattainable level. They also make instructional videos aimed at selling you dozens of paints and brushes just to paint a single mini. Not so, with Runewars. This is just another illusion. At the end of the day, a Space Marine is no harder to paint than a Daqan spearman.

I legitimately can't tell if you are arguing that there's no such thing as a "lite" hobby miniature game in the first place, or if there is such a thing, but Runewars and Legion don't qualify for such a moniker.

In both cases, I think you are being unreasonably dense. At the end of the day, painting a space marine is harder than painting a Daqan Spearman - especially if we are talking about literally any other GW model beyond the most basic, easy to paint generic space marine and are discussing attempts to paint the figures that reasonably assume putting a modicum of effort into painting each available detail. There's no way you could even laughingly suggest that painting a Plague Marine, Blood Warrior, or Rubric Marine is remotely the same difficulty as a Daqan Spearman.

 Sqorgar wrote:

But for my money, I see it as a spectrum:

Board Games (pre-assembled, no painting required or expected)
Lite Miniature Games (easy or no assembly, few details/colors, unpainted or tabletop quality is the expectation)
Miniature Games (requires knowledge of glue/plastic types, specialized tools/brushes, tabletop quality paint job would be the bare minimum)
High End Miniature Games (even grunts require a minimum of 32 different paint pots, Golden Demon is the expectation, $185 kits 3' tall)

I think, at the very least, we can rule out the High End for Legion.

Money is right. You don't have to look further than CMON KS projects to see that miniatures boardgames is where the money is, dwarfing miniatures wargames (even their own), RPGs, and miniatures. But, unlike boardgames, tabletop miniature wargames are "lifestyle" games, meaning that someone who plays the game *continues* to play the game, and continues to *buy* the game. Boardgamers *don't* want to assemble and paint miniatures. They expect their games to be playable "right out of the box". While GW had its snapfits, and FFG released Battlelore, I would say that it was X-Wing that showed a market of "casual wargaming", where painting and assembly was *not* part of the game system's culture. (I think dividing miniature wargames into "casual miniatures wargaming" and "hobby miniatures wargaming" would be fine.) Both FFG and CMON are going after this market, with their SWL and Song of Ice and Fire game systems (I'm not sure where RuneWars fits in, if it matters in a few years). Boardgamers don't expect to glue their own boards, cut out their cards, ink their own dice, or carve meeples out of pieces of wood. Why should they assemble and paint miniatures?

(And... next Reaper Bones SG unlocked. See ya's!

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
@Sqorgar

I have no doubt that FFG has a huge, huge interest in portraying RW and Legion as easier to get into than most miniature gaming. But it's not really true, just as a matter of miniatures. Consider the vast amount of cheap, one piece metal WW2 miniatures that make up a huge part of actual miniatures gaming.

It's not just the number of parts though. The miniatures themselves are designed to be easy to paint. Their designs are built around 4 primary colors, with details being rather sparse and large - you don't need a size 0 brush to paint anything in Runewars. I'd wager that's why Legion is a bigger scale than Imperial Assault - IA wasn't meant to be painted.

So 40K is "lite". Space Marines fit that category nicely.
I guess AoS is also "lite" because of those Sigmarine things.

Yes, if you compare literally the easiest models that GW has, then yeah, 40k seems "lite" on the hobby - unless, you know, you decide to start literally any other army or even decide to create a Stormcast or Space Marine army with figures above and beyond the basic grunts that are literally packaged in "easy to paint" boxes. Go check out the Intercessor Lieutenant and tell me that his details are "sparse and large". Try to paint anything from the starter set opponents to these two factions - Bloodbound or the Death Guard. The average difficulty of a GW model is considerably higher than the average difficulty of the average Runewars model - by several orders of magnitude - but yes, I agree that GW does have some (a handful at most) easier models to lure in new players.

I suppose you ought to head to real life and explain to the ACW enthusiast who's painted a union army of 1000's of figures in mainly blue, and plays a game that takes days to complete that his wargame is "lite".

I think "lite" belittles anyone's wargame. Prepainted or not. Simple rules or not. All have strategy and choice in the game making them wargames.

I think you are mistaking my argument. I am saying that Runewars (and likely Legion) are "lite" on the hobby aspects, not in gameplay. I actually think Runewars is a rather deep game and I'd put its gameplay complexity higher than anything GW puts out (thought lower than Infinity or Warmachine).

And again, I'm not making a judgment call on the "lite" moniker. It is a helpful categorization, especially if you are choosing a secondary or tertiary miniatures game to play. If anything, I've been praising Runewars' "lite"-ness the entire time while complaining that the extraneous and tiny details GW add to models are tedious - especially when you are doing a batch of twenty or thirty grunts, like I am with some Bloodreavers.

In no way, shape, or form should you misconstrue my argument to be a judgment call as to the quality of the game or its players, or as a judgment of value, or even as a judgment of superiority or inferiority against other miniature games or time spent. Runewars is simply light on the hobby aspects, and this can be good or bad depending on the player. In my case, I find it to be a good thing, but I would absolutely understand if someone else had different priorities. So maybe untwist your knickers and join me in the real world where observations can exist without "belittling" anyone or their preferences.

Me: That's a pretty tree.
The Internet: WTF? Are you saying that your tree is better than mine?! Hey, feth you buddy! (insert meme)

"FFG sells no paints or brushes, but with rune wars, shows how to paint, what paints they used and how to get to the average table top level. (perception - lite war game) "

so then most of the field is a "Lite" Wargame including N3 and Malifaux.
in fact...how many companies make their own paints for their wargames?
FFG has a partnership with ArmyPainter...more than Malifaux and N3 have...

So wait.. now we're around to.. the company has to have a line of paint and teach you how to paint or it's a lite game? lol this is the funniest gak I've seen all day (though it's still early)

EDIT: If you can't figure out why people are taking exception with your judgement.. perhaps it's because you're passing judgement.. and.. in an elitist way that is also dismissive of any sort of outside dialog. Have you had much luck with people responding positively to that sort of interaction?

Sorry, thought I was very clear that I think "lite" is mere puffery - market patter on the part of publishers, snobbery on the part of hobbyists. Gimgamgoo brought up the example of ACW: just a bunch of blues and butternuts, must be "lite" minis gaming by your definition. And I have been talking about the olives and dunkelgelbs of WW2, must be "lite" minis gaming, too. Maybe it's just "unreasonably dense" to insist on a GW-centric view of miniatures gaming? Not even just GW-centric, but really focusing on the recent history of GW. The world of minis wargaming is a lot broader than GW cramming byzantine levels of detail onto their newer figs. Since it is GW pulling away from the broader hobby in this regard, why insist that GW be the benchmark for judging everything else, including doling out condescending labels like "lite"?

As far as I can tell, Legion is a regular miniatures war game except when contrasted with an extreme outlier. As I have explained above, I'd guess the optical illusion of Legion and RW seeming "lite" is completely intentional on the part of FFG because FFG wants to attract the same new-to-wargaming customer as GW and one way to compete, especially since FFG doesn't have the chops to compete on complexity of sculpts or granularity of detail, is by advertising RW and Legion as more accessible than GW products. But in reality, Legion will be on par with most games out there including starting 40k, in terms of how demanding the hobby is.

 Manchu wrote:
Not as bad with the stormie ablative armor remixed as stowage:

Spoiler:

Glad they remembered to get the fruit crate in there, very important to keep the vitamin and mineral levels up !

 Pacific wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Not as bad with the stormie ablative armor remixed as stowage:

Spoiler:

Glad they remembered to get the fruit crate in there, very important to keep the vitamin and mineral levels up !

It must be from one very specific Rebels episode ^^

 Albertorius wrote:

 Pacific wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Not as bad with the stormie ablative armor remixed as stowage:

Spoiler:

Glad they remembered to get the fruit crate in there, very important to keep the vitamin and mineral levels up !

It must be from one very specific Rebels episode ^^

It was, actually.

I'm slowly being won over by this game, but the thought of painting all those white stormtroopers...

Sorry if this is dumb, but what's the scale? Can't seem to find it.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Sorry if this is dumb, but what's the scale? Can't seem to find it.

32mm base to a little bit bigger

Interesting, I'd been thinking 20mm to allow for more vehicles.

So basically 40k-ish, maybe a bit bigger for a normal human.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Interesting, I'd been thinking 20mm to allow for more vehicles.

So basically 40k-ish, maybe a bit bigger for a normal human.

I've seen the models in person at Gencon. The Stormtroopers are taller than an old Marine, but shorter than a Primaris. The Rebel Troopers seem smaller, but it's because most of them are a little hunched over. Vader is a good head taller than Luke. Posture is important, people!

So... if 40k is "Heroic 28mm", then Legion is "Heroic Heroic 28mm".

 Manchu wrote:
Sorry, thought I was very clear that I think "lite" is mere puffery - market patter on the part of publishers, snobbery on the part of hobbyists. Gimgamgoo brought up the example of ACW: just a bunch of blues and butternuts, must be "lite" minis gaming by your definition. And I have been talking about the olives and dunkelgelbs of WW2, must be "lite" minis gaming, too. Maybe it's just "unreasonably dense" to insist on a GW-centric view of miniatures gaming? Not even just GW-centric, but really focusing on the recent history of GW. The world of minis wargaming is a lot broader than GW cramming byzantine levels of detail onto their newer figs. Since it is GW pulling away from the broader hobby in this regard, why insist that GW be the benchmark for judging everything else, including doling out condescending labels like "lite"?

It's a really interested position to take. GW models are considered to be baby toys, or action figures, by "real" model figure painters (think Pegaso models), so GW is "lite" by their standards.
And GW rules are, once again, considered to be for babies, by "real" wargamers. I would say that every person that thinks they are a grand tactician for using combos in 40k would struggle through the first scenario in ASLSK1. So 40k is a "lite" game.
By their definitions - toys for kids with rules to match - GW is about as "Lite" as you can get, whereas the guys who do ASL with models in 1/72 or 1/48 are the "real" wargamers.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Interesting, I'd been thinking 20mm to allow for more vehicles.

So basically 40k-ish, maybe a bit bigger for a normal human.

The problem Star Wars games have always faced is being small enough to allow for Vehicles while being big enough to focus on the iconic characters. FFG has probably wisely focused on the latter, though it will create the same kind of desire for ATATs that we saw out of Star Destroyers in X-Wing.

The scale didn't stop WotC from releasing an AT-AT, and that was even more of a "skirmish" level game. In fact get them now,

I wonder how well the taller troops would scale to true 1/48. The 1/48 figs I've gotten before were all about a head taller than warhammer figs anyways. I doubt it's their intention, but it would certainly make integrating vehicle kits easier. I know there's 1/48 AT-ST and snowspeeder kits from Bandai, also pretty sure there's 1/48 x-wings and TIE fighters if you want em for grounded terrain/objectives.. I've seen people use the toys for Millenium Falcon and Outriders for WEG stuff, should still be close enough to work

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Interesting, I'd been thinking 20mm to allow for more vehicles.

So basically 40k-ish, maybe a bit bigger for a normal human.

Indeed. Lots of people would have preferred a 15-20mm scale game.

Of course FFG could always do one down the line.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Interesting, I'd been thinking 20mm to allow for more vehicles.

So basically 40k-ish, maybe a bit bigger for a normal human.

Indeed. Lots of people would have preferred a 15-20mm scale game.

Of course FFG could always do one down the line.

Vehicles and invalidating people's Wizards of the Coast mini collections of course...

Aren't they sort of already invalid?

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Interesting, I'd been thinking 20mm to allow for more vehicles.

So basically 40k-ish, maybe a bit bigger for a normal human.

Indeed. Lots of people would have preferred a 15-20mm scale game.

Of course FFG could always do one down the line.

Vehicles and invalidating people's Wizards of the Coast mini collections of course...

That almost made me as mad as when Tyranny of Dragons made my Chainmail figures invalid.