That's because crap like this isn't really that common, considering the amount of interaction that goes on between police and John Q. Public every day. The hype machine and media ratings mongers ensure that it becomes "an epidemic".
There isn't any real need for your special measures. What abuse goes on, it gets handled well enough in most cases by the systems we have in place. The prosecution of officers involved in unjustifiable shootings recently is proof of that. You are going to have hiccups and ball dropping in ANY system (It isn't perfect by any means). But for the most part, it works like it supposed to if people will let it. The issue here is that some among the general public whipped up in a frenzy, grievance industry profiteers, and politically motivated don't want to hear that. Especially if a investigation doesn't go their way.
Horsegak, it does not get handled in house and this very case proves it. It was going to be brushed right under the rug until this video. Officers were more than happy to let this be forgotten, until an outside group said no. The only reason we know about this is because it was privately recorded. Same with Phillando Castille. Same with the cop who shot the man in the back while he was fleeing. You cannot tell me the system is working fine when there are still cops refusing to turn on body cameras or "forgetting" to turn them on. This system is not working for us. It is great for the cops though.
Payne was wearing a body cam though. It recorded the whole event - interesting we don't see the whole event in any press release. You basically only see the parts they want you to see. The parts that play on your emotions. You don't see the parts where Payne likely calmly explained she was going to be arrested if she didn't stop getting in his way. You don't see the part where the officer yells at Castille 3 times "not to reach for it" and still does anyways because hes stoned out of his mind. You don't see the part where brown is charging a police officer that he just punched through his window - you just see a junior high yearbook photo with lego blocks in the background. You are getting played by professional liars with agendas.
But that implies that she should even have been arrested in the first place.
That had no warrant. They had no right to do ANYTHING. You're implying that they actually had a reason to be there in the first place, and could have legally arrested her - they didn't. Not only that, but we even see footage of Payne's OWN BODY CAMERA - tell me, where does it show him "calmly explaining she was going to be arrested"? Even if she COULD be arrested, which she couldn't be! She was doing her job, ensuring the safety of her patients. The police were not. If you're calling the people defending her as being "played by professional liars", I dread to think what you are.
You're making out like the officers here had any power to do anything. They didn't.
That's because crap like this isn't really that common, considering the amount of interaction that goes on between police and John Q. Public every day. The hype machine and media ratings mongers ensure that it becomes "an epidemic".
There isn't any real need for your special measures. What abuse goes on, it gets handled well enough in most cases by the systems we have in place. The prosecution of officers involved in unjustifiable shootings recently is proof of that. You are going to have hiccups and ball dropping in ANY system (It isn't perfect by any means). But for the most part, it works like it supposed to if people will let it. The issue here is that some among the general public whipped up in a frenzy, grievance industry profiteers, and politically motivated don't want to hear that. Especially if a investigation doesn't go their way.
Horsegak, it does not get handled in house and this very case proves it. It was going to be brushed right under the rug until this video. Officers were more than happy to let this be forgotten, until an outside group said no. The only reason we know about this is because it was privately recorded. Same with Phillando Castille. Same with the cop who shot the man in the back while he was fleeing. You cannot tell me the system is working fine when there are still cops refusing to turn on body cameras or "forgetting" to turn them on. This system is not working for us. It is great for the cops though.
Payne was wearing a body cam though. It recorded the whole event - interesting we don't see the whole event in any press release. You basically only see the parts they want you to see. The parts that play on your emotions. You don't see the parts where Payne likely calmly explained she was going to be arrested if she didn't stop getting in his way. You don't see the part where the officer yells at Castille 3 times "not to reach for it" and still does anyways because hes stoned out of his mind. You don't see the part where brown is charging a police officer that he just punched through his window - you just see a junior high yearbook photo with lego blocks in the background. You are getting played by professional liars with agendas.
So you're basing your argument on the supposition that there's video that we haven't seen of Payne saying/doing something that we have no reason to believe he did? Payne literally had no legal standing to take blood from Gray. Payne was 100% in the wrong. Not only that but the only thing Wubbels did was verbally state that no hospital staff would give him a blood sample or take on for him and that he wasn't allowed to take one himself. At no time did any hospital staff member do anything to physically restrain Payne from taking blood from Gray. Payne chose not to get the sample himself and arrested Wubbels without any legal standing. Payne's body camera footage isn't going to show him trying to take blood himself and it isn't going to show any hospital staff making any attempt to restrain Payne because those things never happened.
There has yet to be any finding by any authority that any hospital staffer did anything wrong in this situation and there never will be because the hospital has the law on their side.
That's because crap like this isn't really that common, considering the amount of interaction that goes on between police and John Q. Public every day. The hype machine and media ratings mongers ensure that it becomes "an epidemic".
There isn't any real need for your special measures. What abuse goes on, it gets handled well enough in most cases by the systems we have in place. The prosecution of officers involved in unjustifiable shootings recently is proof of that. You are going to have hiccups and ball dropping in ANY system (It isn't perfect by any means). But for the most part, it works like it supposed to if people will let it. The issue here is that some among the general public whipped up in a frenzy, grievance industry profiteers, and politically motivated don't want to hear that. Especially if a investigation doesn't go their way.
Horsegak, it does not get handled in house and this very case proves it. It was going to be brushed right under the rug until this video. Officers were more than happy to let this be forgotten, until an outside group said no. The only reason we know about this is because it was privately recorded. Same with Phillando Castille. Same with the cop who shot the man in the back while he was fleeing. You cannot tell me the system is working fine when there are still cops refusing to turn on body cameras or "forgetting" to turn them on. This system is not working for us. It is great for the cops though.
Payne was wearing a body cam though. It recorded the whole event - interesting we don't see the whole event in any press release. You basically only see the parts they want you to see. The parts that play on your emotions. You don't see the parts where Payne likely calmly explained she was going to be arrested if she didn't stop getting in his way. You don't see the part where the officer yells at Castille 3 times "not to reach for it" and still does anyways because hes stoned out of his mind. You don't see the part where brown is charging a police officer that he just punched through his window - you just see a junior high yearbook photo with lego blocks in the background. You are getting played by professional liars with agendas.
So you're basing your argument on the supposition that there's video that we haven't seen of Payne saying/doing something that we have no reason to believe he did? Payne literally had no legal standing to take blood from Gray. Payne was 100% in the wrong. Not only that but the only thing Wubbels did was verbally state that no hospital staff would give him a blood sample or take on for him and that he wasn't allowed to take one himself. At no time did any hospital staff member do anything to physically restrain Payne from taking blood from Gray. Payne chose not to get the sample himself and arrested Wubbels without any legal standing. Payne's body camera footage isn't going to show him trying to take blood himself and it isn't going to show any hospital staff making any attempt to restrain Payne because those things never happened.
There has yet to be any finding by any authority that any hospital staffer did anything wrong in this situation and there never will be because the hospital has the law on their side.
And in fact both official reports so far have commended Wubbels, while finding fault with the officers.
Commended, as in 'good job, Nurse, you kept your head while these two morons went out of their way to be jackasses'.
Anyone wanna bet that those investigations do have the 'full footage'?
'Cause, frankly, betting against it would be giving your money away.
The Auld Grump *EDIT* My spellchecker really wanted Wubbels to be named Whuffles.....
The Auld Grump *EDIT* My spellchecker really wanted Wubbels to be named Whuffles.....
I'm gonna be honest. WHen I first read this I read it as "wanted wubbels to be named waffles" and now all I can think about is how awesome it would be to be Nurse Waffles XD
That's because crap like this isn't really that common, considering the amount of interaction that goes on between police and John Q. Public every day. The hype machine and media ratings mongers ensure that it becomes "an epidemic".
There isn't any real need for your special measures. What abuse goes on, it gets handled well enough in most cases by the systems we have in place. The prosecution of officers involved in unjustifiable shootings recently is proof of that. You are going to have hiccups and ball dropping in ANY system (It isn't perfect by any means). But for the most part, it works like it supposed to if people will let it. The issue here is that some among the general public whipped up in a frenzy, grievance industry profiteers, and politically motivated don't want to hear that. Especially if a investigation doesn't go their way.
Horsegak, it does not get handled in house and this very case proves it. It was going to be brushed right under the rug until this video. Officers were more than happy to let this be forgotten, until an outside group said no. The only reason we know about this is because it was privately recorded. Same with Phillando Castille. Same with the cop who shot the man in the back while he was fleeing. You cannot tell me the system is working fine when there are still cops refusing to turn on body cameras or "forgetting" to turn them on. This system is not working for us. It is great for the cops though.
Payne was wearing a body cam though. It recorded the whole event - interesting we don't see the whole event in any press release. You basically only see the parts they want you to see. The parts that play on your emotions. You don't see the parts where Payne likely calmly explained she was going to be arrested if she didn't stop getting in his way. You don't see the part where the officer yells at Castille 3 times "not to reach for it" and still does anyways because hes stoned out of his mind. You don't see the part where brown is charging a police officer that he just punched through his window - you just see a junior high yearbook photo with lego blocks in the background. You are getting played by professional liars with agendas.
So you're basing your argument on the supposition that there's video that we haven't seen of Payne saying/doing something that we have no reason to believe he did? Payne literally had no legal standing to take blood from Gray. Payne was 100% in the wrong. Not only that but the only thing Wubbels did was verbally state that no hospital staff would give him a blood sample or take on for him and that he wasn't allowed to take one himself. At no time did any hospital staff member do anything to physically restrain Payne from taking blood from Gray. Payne chose not to get the sample himself and arrested Wubbels without any legal standing. Payne's body camera footage isn't going to show him trying to take blood himself and it isn't going to show any hospital staff making any attempt to restrain Payne because those things never happened.
There has yet to be any finding by any authority that any hospital staffer did anything wrong in this situation and there never will be because the hospital has the law on their side.
I suppose the video just starts with him standing in the middle of a hospital ward surrounded by hospital staff with her reading out of a handbook? There are no events leading up to this? We see 2 minutes - this whole event probably took over 20 minutes - there is obviously part of the video they aren't showing. It could just be uninteresting video - it could be something worth seeing. In any case the omission is not genuine. Much like the title of this thread. That is not why she was arrested.
That's because crap like this isn't really that common, considering the amount of interaction that goes on between police and John Q. Public every day. The hype machine and media ratings mongers ensure that it becomes "an epidemic".
There isn't any real need for your special measures. What abuse goes on, it gets handled well enough in most cases by the systems we have in place. The prosecution of officers involved in unjustifiable shootings recently is proof of that. You are going to have hiccups and ball dropping in ANY system (It isn't perfect by any means). But for the most part, it works like it supposed to if people will let it. The issue here is that some among the general public whipped up in a frenzy, grievance industry profiteers, and politically motivated don't want to hear that. Especially if a investigation doesn't go their way.
Horsegak, it does not get handled in house and this very case proves it. It was going to be brushed right under the rug until this video. Officers were more than happy to let this be forgotten, until an outside group said no. The only reason we know about this is because it was privately recorded. Same with Phillando Castille. Same with the cop who shot the man in the back while he was fleeing. You cannot tell me the system is working fine when there are still cops refusing to turn on body cameras or "forgetting" to turn them on. This system is not working for us. It is great for the cops though.
Payne was wearing a body cam though. It recorded the whole event - interesting we don't see the whole event in any press release. You basically only see the parts they want you to see. The parts that play on your emotions. You don't see the parts where Payne likely calmly explained she was going to be arrested if she didn't stop getting in his way. You don't see the part where the officer yells at Castille 3 times "not to reach for it" and still does anyways because hes stoned out of his mind. You don't see the part where brown is charging a police officer that he just punched through his window - you just see a junior high yearbook photo with lego blocks in the background. You are getting played by professional liars with agendas.
So you're basing your argument on the supposition that there's video that we haven't seen of Payne saying/doing something that we have no reason to believe he did? Payne literally had no legal standing to take blood from Gray. Payne was 100% in the wrong. Not only that but the only thing Wubbels did was verbally state that no hospital staff would give him a blood sample or take on for him and that he wasn't allowed to take one himself. At no time did any hospital staff member do anything to physically restrain Payne from taking blood from Gray. Payne chose not to get the sample himself and arrested Wubbels without any legal standing. Payne's body camera footage isn't going to show him trying to take blood himself and it isn't going to show any hospital staff making any attempt to restrain Payne because those things never happened.
There has yet to be any finding by any authority that any hospital staffer did anything wrong in this situation and there never will be because the hospital has the law on their side.
And in fact both official reports so far have commended Wubbels, while finding fault with the officers.
Commended, as in 'good job, Nurse, you kept your head while these two morons went out of their way to be jackasses'.
Anyone wanna bet that those investigations do have the 'full footage'?
'Cause, frankly, betting against it would be giving your money away.
The Auld Grump *EDIT* My spellchecker really wanted Wubbels to be named Whuffles.....
It's just PR. They did nothing about it until the video was released 2 months after this took place.
That's because crap like this isn't really that common, considering the amount of interaction that goes on between police and John Q. Public every day. The hype machine and media ratings mongers ensure that it becomes "an epidemic".
There isn't any real need for your special measures. What abuse goes on, it gets handled well enough in most cases by the systems we have in place. The prosecution of officers involved in unjustifiable shootings recently is proof of that. You are going to have hiccups and ball dropping in ANY system (It isn't perfect by any means). But for the most part, it works like it supposed to if people will let it. The issue here is that some among the general public whipped up in a frenzy, grievance industry profiteers, and politically motivated don't want to hear that. Especially if a investigation doesn't go their way.
Horsegak, it does not get handled in house and this very case proves it. It was going to be brushed right under the rug until this video. Officers were more than happy to let this be forgotten, until an outside group said no. The only reason we know about this is because it was privately recorded. Same with Phillando Castille. Same with the cop who shot the man in the back while he was fleeing. You cannot tell me the system is working fine when there are still cops refusing to turn on body cameras or "forgetting" to turn them on. This system is not working for us. It is great for the cops though.
Payne was wearing a body cam though. It recorded the whole event - interesting we don't see the whole event in any press release. You basically only see the parts they want you to see. The parts that play on your emotions. You don't see the parts where Payne likely calmly explained she was going to be arrested if she didn't stop getting in his way. You don't see the part where the officer yells at Castille 3 times "not to reach for it" and still does anyways because hes stoned out of his mind. You don't see the part where brown is charging a police officer that he just punched through his window - you just see a junior high yearbook photo with lego blocks in the background. You are getting played by professional liars with agendas.
lol, did you just say "stoned out of his mind."? I bet you think Marijuana is a dangerous drug.
See, these all are things we did not see until the public had its own video. We would have never seen the Castillo body cam, had it not been for the FB livestream of him being murdered
Also, there was no calmly explaining to the nurse she would be arrested if she continued to get in his way. Because it is her job and duty as a healthcare professional to stop him from doing this. I don't know how many times I can explain that to you.
You just don't know what you are talking about and you have formed your own narrative of the situation because of "professional liars with agendas." You have little knowledge of the law involved in this and the policies. You are the perfect "low information voter" in this scenario.
I don't think it's dangerous - but I can almost guarantee that's why hes dead. The FB live stream did not show him being murdered ether - it showed him dead after the fact. In other words - it's more useless emotional video that proves nothing. The police car cam caught it all though and it shows the cop yelling at him and then shooting him - which fits with what the cops said happened. Professional liars are called media these days. Their agenda is to make cops look like racist lunatic killers because it drives ratings not to mention their left leaning politics ether. I do think Payne made mistakes here - I just don't see other than you being blinded by confirmation bias how you could not want all the details here. Why did Payne insist on getting the blood sample if he had not legal right to it? Did his superiors lead him to think he did. Where is the rest of the video?
That's because crap like this isn't really that common, considering the amount of interaction that goes on between police and John Q. Public every day. The hype machine and media ratings mongers ensure that it becomes "an epidemic".
There isn't any real need for your special measures. What abuse goes on, it gets handled well enough in most cases by the systems we have in place. The prosecution of officers involved in unjustifiable shootings recently is proof of that. You are going to have hiccups and ball dropping in ANY system (It isn't perfect by any means). But for the most part, it works like it supposed to if people will let it. The issue here is that some among the general public whipped up in a frenzy, grievance industry profiteers, and politically motivated don't want to hear that. Especially if a investigation doesn't go their way.
Horsegak, it does not get handled in house and this very case proves it. It was going to be brushed right under the rug until this video. Officers were more than happy to let this be forgotten, until an outside group said no. The only reason we know about this is because it was privately recorded. Same with Phillando Castille. Same with the cop who shot the man in the back while he was fleeing. You cannot tell me the system is working fine when there are still cops refusing to turn on body cameras or "forgetting" to turn them on. This system is not working for us. It is great for the cops though.
Payne was wearing a body cam though. It recorded the whole event - interesting we don't see the whole event in any press release. You basically only see the parts they want you to see. The parts that play on your emotions. You don't see the parts where Payne likely calmly explained she was going to be arrested if she didn't stop getting in his way. You don't see the part where the officer yells at Castille 3 times "not to reach for it" and still does anyways because hes stoned out of his mind. You don't see the part where brown is charging a police officer that he just punched through his window - you just see a junior high yearbook photo with lego blocks in the background. You are getting played by professional liars with agendas.
So you're basing your argument on the supposition that there's video that we haven't seen of Payne saying/doing something that we have no reason to believe he did? Payne literally had no legal standing to take blood from Gray. Payne was 100% in the wrong. Not only that but the only thing Wubbels did was verbally state that no hospital staff would give him a blood sample or take on for him and that he wasn't allowed to take one himself. At no time did any hospital staff member do anything to physically restrain Payne from taking blood from Gray. Payne chose not to get the sample himself and arrested Wubbels without any legal standing. Payne's body camera footage isn't going to show him trying to take blood himself and it isn't going to show any hospital staff making any attempt to restrain Payne because those things never happened.
There has yet to be any finding by any authority that any hospital staffer did anything wrong in this situation and there never will be because the hospital has the law on their side.
I suppose the video just starts with him standing in the middle of a hospital ward surrounded by hospital staff with her reading out of a handbook? There are no events leading up to this? We see 2 minutes - this whole event probably took over 20 minutes - there is obviously part of the video they aren't showing. It could just be uninteresting video - it could be something worth seeing. In any case the omission is not genuine. Much like the title of this thread. That is not why she was arrested.
Do you think the investigation that concluded that Payne never should have arrested the nurse at all didn't view the entire videotape? The reason we haven't seen the entire tap is because the only reason we've seen any video at all is because Wubbels' lawyer released it at a press conference because in the weeks following the incident the police department hadn't taken any steps to reign in the officers who intimidated and terrorized hospital staff. The police could release all of the video if they wanted to and if it actually contained some footage that somehow exonerated Payne and Tracy it would be in their interest to do so but they haven't. The police have concluded that Payne was wrong to make the arrest and he was wrong to detain Wubbels. Why do you think Payne arrested Wubbels? Utah state law and Feseral law show that Wubbels was in the right and Payne is on video admitting he had no warrant and he clearly misrepresents the law and refuses to believe multiple hospital staffers who calmly and professionally explain the law to him. There is literally no evidence or legal justification that you can cite that supports Payne arresting Wubbels or gives Payne a legal right to a blood sample from Gray. The only reasons for arresting Wubbels like that are Payne's demonstrable incompetence, ignorance and anger issues.
Xenomancers wrote: I suppose the video just starts with him standing in the middle of a hospital ward surrounded by hospital staff with her reading out of a handbook? There are no events leading up to this? We see 2 minutes - this whole event probably took over 20 minutes - there is obviously part of the video they aren't showing. It could just be uninteresting video - it could be something worth seeing. In any case the omission is not genuine. Much like the title of this thread. That is not why she was arrested.
Did you watch the video in the OP? That's nearly 20 minutes long, and doesn't start with Payne surrounded at all. In fact, that only happens 5 minutes in. So, what proof do you have?
Again, you're the one without any evidence to support your claim. Like in any argument, I'm going to ask you to actually prove something you're saying, because at the moment, all the evidence we've seen points to Payne being completely out of his mind and station.
Xenomancers wrote: I suppose the video just starts with him standing in the middle of a hospital ward surrounded by hospital staff with her reading out of a handbook? There are no events leading up to this? We see 2 minutes - this whole event probably took over 20 minutes - there is obviously part of the video they aren't showing. It could just be uninteresting video - it could be something worth seeing. In any case the omission is not genuine. Much like the title of this thread. That is not why she was arrested.
Did you watch the video in the OP? That's nearly 20 minutes long, and doesn't start with Payne surrounded at all. In fact, that only happens 5 minutes in. So, what proof do you have?
Again, you're the one without any evidence to support your claim. Like in any argument, I'm going to ask you to actually prove something you're saying, because at the moment, all the evidence we've seen points to Payne being completely out of his mind and station.
There is no point talking with him about this, Sgt. He has proven throughout the thread that he has no ability to comprehend the situation or laws involved that the state of Utah and U.S. Supreme Court has in place or the fact that the hospital had worked out with the SLPD over a year before conditions that the nurse read to the officer for a blood draw.
So the same poster is still trying to...I really don't know anymore.
The officer was wrong.
There is literally nothing that the police officer did right in the case the PD hasn't a leg to stand on.
Its a tough job being in law enforcement but I think the time for those in blue to be given deference because its expected has long since passed.
Xenomancers wrote: I suppose the video just starts with him standing in the middle of a hospital ward surrounded by hospital staff with her reading out of a handbook? There are no events leading up to this? We see 2 minutes - this whole event probably took over 20 minutes - there is obviously part of the video they aren't showing. It could just be uninteresting video - it could be something worth seeing. In any case the omission is not genuine. Much like the title of this thread. That is not why she was arrested.
So basically you've just proved you haven't even watched the video in the OP.
The full video isn't 2 minutes, it is, funnily enough, 20 minutes. The arrest in question doesn't even occur until about 7 minutes in to the video and the last 12 minutes or so is the cops discussing how they done fethed up prior to releasing the nurse they just kidnapped.
There's a reason almost no one is coming to the copper's defence. I'm sure it would have just been swept under the rug if the (20 minute) video hadn't been released to the public, but once it has it's hard to do anything but commend the nurse and condemn the cops (and their lack of knowledge pertaining to the job they were assigned to do).
It might have already been mentioned, but Gray (the guy they were trying to draw blood from) was a trucker is actually a reserve Police officer and this is the incident that put him in to the burns ward at the hospital in the first place...
d-usa wrote: How many posters, who disagree with each other on almost everything, are actually agreeing here?
That alone should tell you that the cop was wrong.
I honestly think you can count the number of threads with just about universal agreement on one hand. I can only think of two off the top of my head; this one, and that one about whether or not ex-cons should be allowed to vote/buy guns once their debt is paid.
d-usa wrote: How many posters, who disagree with each other on almost everything, are actually agreeing here?
That alone should tell you that the cop was wrong.
To be fair, you could ask that exact same question about virtually any opinion that has been vomited from that account. I've written it off as an elaborate troll account for a while now.
This afternoon I was talking to a PA from the hospital. We talked about what is being done to prevent such stupidity from happening in the future. It is pretty much everything that has already been in the news.
The thing that interested me was being told that the hospital staff aren't currently really discussing it that much, at least in her area.
Xenomancers wrote: I suppose the video just starts with him standing in the middle of a hospital ward surrounded by hospital staff with her reading out of a handbook? There are no events leading up to this? We see 2 minutes - this whole event probably took over 20 minutes - there is obviously part of the video they aren't showing. It could just be uninteresting video - it could be something worth seeing. In any case the omission is not genuine. Much like the title of this thread. That is not why she was arrested.
So basically you've just proved you haven't even watched the video in the OP.
The full video isn't 2 minutes, it is, funnily enough, 20 minutes. The arrest in question doesn't even occur until about 7 minutes in to the video and the last 12 minutes or so is the cops discussing how they done fethed up prior to releasing the nurse they just kidnapped.
There's a reason almost no one is coming to the copper's defence. I'm sure it would have just been swept under the rug if the (20 minute) video hadn't been released to the public, but once it has it's hard to do anything but commend the nurse and condemn the cops (and their lack of knowledge pertaining to the job they were assigned to do).
It might have already been mentioned, but Gray (the guy they were trying to draw blood from) was a trucker is actually a reserve Police officer and this is the incident that put him in to the burns ward at the hospital in the first place...
That point bears repeating as it gets buried in the thread as well as the fact his department in Idaho contacted the nurse to thank her for protecting his rights.
Yup, the police sure do a great job of policing themselves...
Jesus I'd be fired so fast for that sort of behavior it would make my head spin...I certainly wouldnt be getting off with just a suspension and a reprimand for that sort of behavior.
Yup, the police sure do a great job of policing themselves...
Jesus I'd be fired so fast for that sort of behavior it would make my head spin...I certainly wouldnt be getting off with just a suspension and a reprimand for that sort of behavior.
Looking specifically at the US here it really seems a cultural thing that cops are treated with such deference that they almost appear to covered in teflon when it comes to serious issues.
Yup, the police sure do a great job of policing themselves...
Jesus I'd be fired so fast for that sort of behavior it would make my head spin...I certainly wouldnt be getting off with just a suspension and a reprimand for that sort of behavior.
Looking specifically at the US here it really seems a cultural thing that cops are treated with such deference that they almost appear to covered in teflon when it comes to serious issues.
Three parts:
1. Cultural difference. The conservative culture in the US supports the police. This is also the culture that tends to draw recruits to the police. I would proffer thats everywhere.
2. Unions. Police have absolutely fabuloous unions. In turn those unions give campaign contributions to politicians.
3. The Correctional Industrial complex. Similar to #2: the industry provides contributions to electoral support to politicians, who then support the industry. Its big business.
At least wer're not Latin America. Police force death squads are a thing there.
Looking specifically at the US here it really seems a cultural thing that cops are treated with such deference that they almost appear to covered in teflon when it comes to serious issues.
Without passing judgement, I will comment that there's a lot of very angry people in St. Louis right now who are intent on demonstrating that they feel that this culture needs to change.
Mr. Burning wrote: Looking specifically at the US here it really seems a cultural thing that cops are treated with such deference that they almost appear to covered in teflon when it comes to serious issues.
1. Cultural difference. The conservative culture in the US supports the police. This is also the culture that tends to draw recruits to the police.
Which does seem a bit odd when you think about it. Isn't "conservative" also about respecting the Constitution, the rights it gives people and ofc the right to bear arms? No one can tell an American what to do? Why would these same people then support a police force that does whatever it wants? Is it just that they think the police will never come for them because they are good people who'll never have trouble with the law?
This is delving perhaps waaay off target, into a minefield, but imo:
U.S. Politics is only one dimensional, not two dimensional. So the authoritarian right and the libertarian right are in the same tent, and the authoritarian left and libertarian left are also in the same tent.
Part of the problem is that there is often the argument that the police do a hard and dangerous job (which they do), and therefore we should cut them some slack.
Unit1126PLL wrote: This is delving perhaps waaay off target, into a minefield, but imo:
U.S. Politics is only one dimensional, not two dimensional. So the authoritarian right and the libertarian right are in the same tent, and the authoritarian left and libertarian left are also in the same tent.
That's why some of it is so dysfunctional.
^
There's as much of an up-down authoritarian-libertarian break in US society as a right/left one, probably moreso to be honest.
d-usa wrote:Part of the problem is that there is often the argument that the police do a hard and dangerous job (which they do), and therefore we should cut them some slack.
EMT's too but they seem to be able to survive crazy situations without randomly shooting people that often?
Vaktathi wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote: This is delving perhaps waaay off target, into a minefield, but imo:
U.S. Politics is only one dimensional, not two dimensional. So the authoritarian right and the libertarian right are in the same tent, and the authoritarian left and libertarian left are also in the same tent.
That's why some of it is so dysfunctional.
^
There's as much of an up-down authoritarian-libertarian break in US society as a right/left one, probably moreso to be honest.
I think the point is about the two party system where you only get to choose your side on one dimension. Every politician who wants to participate effectively has to fit somewhere on that line and all other dimensions get flattened onto that line when it comes to voting.
Maine recently switched to a ranked ballot for gubernatorial elections, which adds a bit of flex to that line.
Mind you, Maine also splits its electoral votes (and did in the most recent Presidential election) - one of only two states that do so.
Which strikes me as a much saner way of doing things - if the populace of a state is split between candidates then the electoral votes should be split as well.
All of which is kind of off topic....
So, waffling back on topic - it is worth mentioning that Payne is also frequently cited for being dedicated to his job, and going beyond the minimum effort needed - which goes a way to both explain why the department cut him some (IMHO too much) slack, and why his superior backed him up, in the face of his being pretty blatantly wrong in this instance.
It is a lot easier to say 'You're fired!' to a lazy jerk than to a dedicated and hard working jerk.
Mr. Burning wrote: Looking specifically at the US here it really seems a cultural thing that cops are treated with such deference that they almost appear to covered in teflon when it comes to serious issues.
1. Cultural difference. The conservative culture in the US supports the police. This is also the culture that tends to draw recruits to the police.
Which does seem a bit odd when you think about it. Isn't "conservative" also about respecting the Constitution, the rights it gives people and ofc the right to bear arms? No one can tell an American what to do? Why would these same people then support a police force that does whatever it wants? Is it just that they think the police will never come for them because they are good people who'll never have trouble with the law?
My observation of my conservative American friends (ie. real ones, not internet nutjobs) is they support police in that they don't believe police are oppressing minorities and they are more likely to side with the police when the full details of the circumstances aren't known.
But in a case like this where the coppers lack knowledge of the law and are actively trying to take away the rights of a helpless patient, yeah, I'm pretty sure most conservatives would want to throw these coppers to the wolves as well.
well he probably wasn't sorry until they started to investigate him.... before that he was probably just angry and baffled that he wasn't getting his own way
The patient whose rights Alex Wubbels was acting to protect has died.
Meanwhile the police union is trying to claim that Alex Wubbels is making pariahs of the officers involved, and attempted to call the act of releasing the footage illegal - in spite of Wubbels having obtained a freedom of information ruling first.
And now the family sues the police department for wrongful death.
Which is what I'd like to see happen, cause police chases are pointlessly risky imo, but I probably shouldn't be wishing for such things on the death of some guy so... Moving on then.
SALT LAKE CITY — A Utah police officer was fired Tuesday after being seen on video roughly handcuffing a nurse because she refused to allow a blood draw in an incident that became a flashpoint in the national conversation about use of force.
Salt Lake City Police Chief Mike Brown made the decision to fire Detective Jeff Payne after an internal investigation found he violated department policies when he arrested nurse Alex Wubbels and dragged her screaming from the hospital, department spokesman Sgt. Brandon Shearer said.
Brown said in a disciplinary letter that he was "deeply troubled" by Payne's conduct, which he described as "inappropriate, unreasonable, unwarranted, discourteous, disrespectful" and said brought "significant disrepute" on the department.
"You demonstrated extremely poor professional judgment (especially for an officer with 27 years of experience), which calls into question your ability to effectively serve the public and the department," Brown wrote.
Attorney Greg Skordas, who represents Payne, said his client plans to appeal a firing he considers unfair and over the top. Skordas said Payne would still be employed if the body camera footage hadn't generated so much attention and blown the events out of proportion.
Payne's supervisor, Lt. James Tracy, was demoted to officer. His lawyer, Ed Brass, couldn't immediately be reached.
Tracy made an impulsive decision in ordering Payne to arrest Wubbels without first taking time to understand the facts of the situation and the law, Brown wrote in his disciplinary letter.
He said the order created chaos and unnecessarily escalated the situation.
"Your lack of judgment and leadership in this matter is unacceptable, and as a result, I no longer believe that you can retain a leadership position in the department," Brown said.
The letter said Wubbels told investigators that Tracy minimized her concerns, intimidated and lectured her, and made her feel like she was to blame for the events.
The Associated Press obtained the disciplinary letters for Payne and Tracy through a public records request.
Wubbels' attorney, Karra Porter, said they are pleased that Brown took action and recognized that the officers made crucial mistakes that have eroded public trust. Porter said she hopes the events are a catalyst to more public conversations about appropriate police behavior.
The case shows the vital importance of officers wearing body cameras and making those videos available to the public, Porter said.
"Without the body camera footage, it would have been a she-said, they-said," Porter said. "Alex feels very strongly that her story would have never been told if it weren't for the body camera footage."
Asked about a potential lawsuit, Porter said she expects to meet soon with city officials to discuss next steps that could include settlement talks.
The officers have five business days to appeal the decisions by the chief.
The case received widespread attention after police body-camera video was released by Wubbels and her lawyer in late August.
The video showed her explaining that hospital policy required a warrant or formal consent to draw blood from the patient who had been injured in a car crash.
The patient wasn't suspected of wrongdoing. He was an off-duty reserve Idaho police officer driving a semitrailer when he was hit by a man fleeing police in a pickup truck.
Payne nevertheless insisted on the blood draw, saying the evidence would protect the man.
Payne told Wubbels his supervisor said he should arrest her if she didn't allow the draw. Wubbels was later freed from the handcuffs and has not been charged.
Both officers were investigated and placed on paid administrative leave after the video became public. Salt Lake City police apologized and changed their policies.
Prosecutors, meanwhile, opened a criminal investigation into the arrest and asked the FBI to determine if there were any civil rights violations.
Payne was also fired from a part-time job as a paramedic after he was caught on camera saying he'd take transient patients to the University of Utah hospital where Wubbels worked and transport "good patients" elsewhere.
Payne had previously been disciplined in 2013 after internal-affairs investigators confirmed that he sexually harassed a female co-worker in a "persistent and severe" way.
His tenure also brought commendations for solving burglary cases and being shot in the shoulder during a traffic stop in 1998.
Tracy, meanwhile, earned commendations for drug and burglary investigations
Shouldn't it be the other way around or both fired?
Definitely agree. They were both wrong but I think the onus of responsibility to avoid the unlawful detainment would have been on the superior officer who authorized said unlawful detainment. They definitely both should have been fired.
No the nurse shouldn't be fired, the nurse was in the right, she did her job and followed the law and her procedures. why on earth you two think she should be fired for that is beyond me.
Ouze wrote:Definitely agree. They were both wrong but I think the onus of responsibility to avoid the unlawful detainment would have been on the superior officer who authorized said unlawful detainment. They definitely both should have been fired.
sirlynchmob wrote:No the nurse shouldn't be fired, the nurse was in the right, she did her job and followed the law and her procedures. why on earth you two think she should be fired for that is beyond me.
Bolded for emphasis. I'm referring to the cop who made the arrest and even more so, the cop's supervisor who authorized her detainment - and so, in my mind, bears greater responsibility. Why on earth you would think i meant the nurse is beyond me
Ouze wrote:Definitely agree. They were both wrong but I think the onus of responsibility to avoid the unlawful detainment would have been on the superior officer who authorized said unlawful detainment. They definitely both should have been fired.
sirlynchmob wrote:No the nurse shouldn't be fired, the nurse was in the right, she did her job and followed the law and her procedures. why on earth you two think she should be fired for that is beyond me.
Bolded for emphasis. I'm referring to the cop who made the arrest and even more so, the cop's supervisor who authorized her detainment - and so, in my mind, bears greater responsibility. Why on earth you would think i meant the nurse is beyond me
My bad, it was argued earlier in the thread that the nurse should be fired as well. and the use of your ambiguous word "both" seemed to be more in context with her than the supervisor.
Being fired isn't enough. Especially since he's fighting it. And that attitude; "oh it's only a problem because you caught me doing it on video." Great defense there mate.
Dreadwinter wrote: So how about that jail time? We going to see any charges brought against him for kidnapping or battery?
When a black teenager is murdered by the police, you can expect nothing, and when a white blonde woman is roughed up, you can expect firings, but for a police officer to be charged with kidnapping or battery? For a detainment, not even an arrest?
The cop better have roughed up a white male CEO or something to get to that level of our legal system, we're talking like, Rock Band, Through the Fire and Flames with 100% on Hard, level. Maybe if he had roughed up Tim Cook.
Dreadwinter wrote: So how about that jail time? We going to see any charges brought against him for kidnapping or battery?
When a black teenager is murdered by the police, you can expect nothing, and when a white blonde woman is roughed up, you can expect firings, but for a police officer to be charged with kidnapping or battery? For a detainment, not even an arrest?
The cop better have roughed up a white male CEO or something to get to that level of our legal system, we're talking like, Rock Band, Through the Fire and Flames with 100% on Hard, level. Maybe if he had roughed up Tim Cook.
Do you have a teenager in specific to mention? Hopefully you don't mean Michael Brown, or your point is invalid and reeks of race baiting.
I would certainly like to see that painfully egotistical, supreme jerk, Harvey Weinstein roughed up as he is arrested. Never happen, I know, as criminal charges and an official arrest may never happen, but this guy is the epitome of a slimeball happily marching to the tune of the ultra-rich white Hollywood privileged never thinking he was doing anything wrong.
MDSW wrote: I would certainly like to see that painfully egotistical, supreme jerk, Harvey Weinstein roughed up as he is arrested. Never happen, I know, as criminal charges and an official arrest may never happen, but this guy is the epitome of a slimeball happily marching to the tune of the ultra-rich white Hollywood privileged never thinking he was doing anything wrong.
Dreadwinter wrote: So how about that jail time? We going to see any charges brought against him for kidnapping or battery?
When a black teenager is murdered by the police, you can expect nothing, and when a white blonde woman is roughed up, you can expect firings, but for a police officer to be charged with kidnapping or battery? For a detainment, not even an arrest?
The cop better have roughed up a white male CEO or something to get to that level of our legal system, we're talking like, Rock Band, Through the Fire and Flames with 100% on Hard, level. Maybe if he had roughed up Tim Cook.
Yeah, but she is an Olympian! I have some hope here!
Anyway, baaaaaaack on topic, good to see meaningful action taken in this instance. Not as much as id like but the consequences are meaningful and the officers involved are going to feel this for the rest of their lives, even if only in their pocketbooks.
Shame it only happened after public pressure from the release of body cam footage however.
Anyway, baaaaaaack on topic, good to see meaningful action taken in this instance. Not as much as id like but the consequences are meaningful and the officers involved are going to feel this for the rest of their lives, even if only in their pocketbooks.
Shame it only happened after public pressure from the release of body cam footage however.
I find it darkly amusing that their appeal is basically "I'm only getting punished because I got caught on camera". Maybe there is a systemic problem with police abusing their power if that is their actual defense.
Anyway, baaaaaaack on topic, good to see meaningful action taken in this instance. Not as much as id like but the consequences are meaningful and the officers involved are going to feel this for the rest of their lives, even if only in their pocketbooks.
Shame it only happened after public pressure from the release of body cam footage however.
I find it darkly amusing that their appeal is basically "I'm only getting punished because I got caught on camera". Maybe there is a systemic problem with police abusing their power if that is their actual defense.
yeah, that excuse doesnt exactly inspire sympathy nor confidence in the police...
Well, “the public will change their opinion of our tactics and our relationship with the community will suffer” has been an actual defense against cameras in the past.
The "but it's not fair that I got caught on camera" argument is stupid when criminals use it, and utterly pathetic when cops being criminals use it.
I understand that their are certain tactics and actions that may make an outsider raise an eyebrow, even if they are appropriate. I once explained to someone why it was needed to have 5 officers hold a struggling woman down. Being "fair" has nothing to do with it, it's supposed to be unfair and results in fewer injuries for both sides. Complaining you got caught being stupid is in a whole different department.
Was using jingoism as a easy way to deflect from difficult conversations too transparently manipulative? Because it seems to be working pretty well in other venues.
Ouze wrote: Was using jingoism as a easy way to deflect from difficult conversations too transparently manipulative? Because it seems to be working pretty well in other venues.
The fact that people cannot tell the difference between a satirical remark and genuine intent should be setting off klaxons literally everywhere. This is an Actual Problem.
One of the complaints people have had over this case was how long it took before the incident was acted upon - and that action waited until the video footage was made public.
Yeah, it seems pretty obvious now that with body cam footage, the standard is to release it immediately if it clears the cop, and sit on it forever if it doesn't. A standard streamlined policy would be best.
Ouze wrote: Yeah, it seems pretty obvious now that with body cam footage, the standard is to release it immediately if it clears the cop, and sit on it forever if it doesn't. A standard streamlined policy would be best.
Detective Payne, who was fired following the incident, is also appealing - his termination letter was 17 pages long, and was not kindly worded.
One of my favorite lines from Tracy on the footage - "I don’t need you to make a phone call to tell me what authority I have because I know what authority I have."
Turned out that, no - he neither knew what authority he had, nor did he, in fact, have that authority.
Detective Payne, who was fired following the incident, is also appealing - his termination letter was 17 pages long, and was not kindly worded.
One of my favorite lines from Tracy on the footage - "I don’t need you to make a phone call to tell me what authority I have because I know what authority I have."
Turned out that, no - he neither knew what authority he had, nor did he, in fact, have that authority.
Whoops.
The Auld Grump
Hardly surprising, and speaks to a dramatic lack of self-consciousness, but is also to be expected.
And sadly, such things are routinely overturned. Lets hope they stick in this case.
Appealing this is just... I don't know the word, but upsetting.
Everyone I know, the Grand Jury, their bosses, the hospital, and the city all know they fethed up.
I don't know if they're truly obtuse enough to honestly believe that they didn't feth up, and this punishment was wrongful.
If you know you fethed up, and you're a cop who is supposed to be the moral upstanding role-model of the community, isn't appealing just admitting "yeah, I fethed up, but I shouldn't be penalized! That's not fair!"
and the nurse settles the court case for 500,000. it's a shame the tax payers have to foot the bill instead of the police and the officers involved though.
It is, perhaps, important to note that part of that settlement is going to a fund to help others get body-cam footage when needed, and that the legal services that helped her achieve that settlement will be providing pro bono representation for those seeking footage.
And part is going as a donation to the Utah Nurses Association - to help fight the abuse of nurses at their job.
Not just a money grab on Nurse Wubbels' part. She was well and truly ticked off at her treatment by these yahoos - and with damned good reason.
sirlynchmob wrote: and the nurse settles the court case for 500,000. it's a shame the tax payers have to foot the bill instead of the police and the officers involved though.
It's truly amazing to me how much differently the justice system works when the victim of policy brutality is a blonde white woman - one who was neither seriously injured nor even actually arrested, just briefly detained.
I mean, it shouldn't be surprising anymore, but it still is.
sirlynchmob wrote: and the nurse settles the court case for 500,000. it's a shame the tax payers have to foot the bill instead of the police and the officers involved though.
It's truly amazing to me how much differently the justice system works when the victim of policy brutality is a blonde white woman - one who was neither seriously injured nor even actually arrested, just briefly detained.
I mean, it shouldn't be surprising anymore, but it still is.
It may surprise you that there were folks on the other side of the issue that were saying that 'you wouldn't see that kind of outcry if it were a white person being arrested!' as though the reason people were reacting to incidents of police brutality was because the victims were black.
Well, this time the victim was white, and we did see an outcry...
Still, I am glad that this incident came to light, hopefully, in the future, incidents of brutality against black people will also get the recognition needed.
That it is uneven is a given, black people are being persecuted at a much greater rate - but that being the case does not mean that the attacks on white people should not be recognized as well. It is the brutality that needs to stop.
sirlynchmob wrote: and the nurse settles the court case for 500,000. it's a shame the tax payers have to foot the bill instead of the police and the officers involved though.
It's truly amazing to me how much differently the justice system works when the victim of policy brutality is a blonde white woman - one who was neither seriously injured nor even actually arrested, just briefly detained.
I mean, it shouldn't be surprising anymore, but it still is.
There are more than enough cases where cops walk when a white person is brutalized, such as the homeless person who was just sitting by a wall and was beaten to death by several cops. The entire incident was recorded and the cops walked.
sirlynchmob wrote: and the nurse settles the court case for 500,000. it's a shame the tax payers have to foot the bill instead of the police and the officers involved though.
It's truly amazing to me how much differently the justice system works when the victim of policy brutality is a blonde white woman - one who was neither seriously injured nor even actually arrested, just briefly detained.
I mean, it shouldn't be surprising anymore, but it still is.
There are more than enough cases where cops walk when a white person is brutalized, such as the homeless person who was just sitting by a wall and was beaten to death by several cops. The entire incident was recorded and the cops walked.
That's classism though.
America has a gak-ton of classism and racism both. If that white person who was brutalized had been Will Smith (a black, rich person) there would have been an outcry. If that white person who was killed was Bill Gates (a white, rich person) then there would have been an outcry.
sirlynchmob wrote: and the nurse settles the court case for 500,000. it's a shame the tax payers have to foot the bill instead of the police and the officers involved though.
It's truly amazing to me how much differently the justice system works when the victim of policy brutality is a blonde white woman - one who was neither seriously injured nor even actually arrested, just briefly detained.
I mean, it shouldn't be surprising anymore, but it still is.
There are more than enough cases where cops walk when a white person is brutalized, such as the homeless person who was just sitting by a wall and was beaten to death by several cops. The entire incident was recorded and the cops walked.
That's classism though.
America has a gak-ton of classism and racism both. If that white person who was brutalized had been Will Smith (a black, rich person) there would have been an outcry. If that white person who was killed was Bill Gates (a white, rich person) then there would have been an outcry.
The point is, though, there is a seeming blanket statement made that white people get a pass when that isn't true.
You seem to, for some reason, be interpreting what I said as "no white person has ever been victimized by the cops, ever, and the cops skated on it". That's not what I said or what I meant.
There are different levels of justice typically dispensed to different people based on where they lie on the socioeconomic ladder of American society. Even though I am aware that a blonde white woman is pretty high up on that ladder, although somewhat lower than a celebrity, or a mega-rich person, I was still surprised that the wheels of justice moved so swiftly in this case. Half a million bucks for being briefly detained? At no point did the media run a campaign reminding us She Was No Angel, and pictures of her with a gun or a drink or a shoplifting arrest as a teenager? You must know these results are not evenly averaged among victims of police injustice.
To add a different note - had the police not tried to just ignore the incident, it is likely that nothing much would have happened - a brief apology, and sending Wubbels on her way.
It was as much the coverup - or at least perception of a coverup - that made this news.
The officers had not even bothered reporting the incident.
Which also leaves the police department in the position that they have to act, or risk being seen as condoning the officers' behavior and actions.
The coverup has done more damage than the incident itself.
TheAuldGrump wrote: To add a different note - had the police not tried to just ignore the incident, it is likely that nothing much would have happened - a brief apology, and sending Wubbels on her way.
It was as much the coverup - or at least perception of a coverup - that made this news.
The officers had not even bothered reporting the incident.
Which also leaves the police department in the position that they have to act, or risk being seen as condoning the officers' behavior and actions.
The coverup has done more damage than the incident itself.
The Auld Grump
And this is why it's important to continually pressure law enforcement agencies to be transparent and call BS on them when they make excuses.
Ultimately they are organizations which are run and staffed by humans, with all the issues that involves. They arent perfect, they can and will abuse their power and seek to get away with it, and a free society must keep its police accountable for them to operate in a manner that actually benefits society instead of just turning them into the biggest gang on the street.
Nobody should ever simply just trust the police, in any capacity.
Ouze wrote: You seem to, for some reason, be interpreting what I said as "no white person has ever been victimized by the cops, ever, and the cops skated on it". That's not what I said or what I meant.
There are different levels of justice typically dispensed to different people based on where they lie on the socioeconomic ladder of American society. Even though I am aware that a blonde white woman is pretty high up on that ladder, although somewhat lower than a celebrity, or a mega-rich person, I was still surprised that the wheels of justice moved so swiftly in this case. Half a million bucks for being briefly detained? At no point did the media run a campaign reminding us She Was No Angel, and pictures of her with a gun or a drink or a shoplifting arrest as a teenager? You must know these results are not evenly averaged among victims of police injustice.
There is the flip side to this. There are many people that have been held out as victims of "police brutality" that probably weren't. Yes, pulling up pictures of them with a drink is bad, but so is pulling out the picture of the "victim" as a 12-year-old in a choir robe after they just punched a cop and tried to take their gun, or bringing up how they work with at-risk youth after pulling a knife.
While I fully support calling out bad cops for bad behavior, I truly want to shake my head at the number of idiots that try backing every violent instigator.
Ouze wrote: You seem to, for some reason, be interpreting what I said as "no white person has ever been victimized by the cops, ever, and the cops skated on it". That's not what I said or what I meant.
There are different levels of justice typically dispensed to different people based on where they lie on the socioeconomic ladder of American society. Even though I am aware that a blonde white woman is pretty high up on that ladder, although somewhat lower than a celebrity, or a mega-rich person, I was still surprised that the wheels of justice moved so swiftly in this case. Half a million bucks for being briefly detained? At no point did the media run a campaign reminding us She Was No Angel, and pictures of her with a gun or a drink or a shoplifting arrest as a teenager? You must know these results are not evenly averaged among victims of police injustice.
There is the flip side to this. There are many people that have been held out as victims of "police brutality" that probably weren't. Yes, pulling up pictures of them with a drink is bad, but so is pulling out the picture of the "victim" as a 12-year-old in a choir robe after they just punched a cop and tried to take their gun, or bringing up how they work with at-risk youth after pulling a knife.
While I fully support calling out bad cops for bad behavior, I truly want to shake my head at the number of idiots that try backing every violent instigator.
Which is also part of why having the cam footage available is important.
When the police are doing their jobs properly, it protects the officers.
When the police are abusing their position, it protects the public.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes.
In this case, the officers talked about the fact that they did not have probable cause - and tried to pretend that nothing had happened. (And why I found the Lieutenant's quote about 'knowing what his authority was' so damning - because when he stopped and thought it through, he realized that he didn't have that authority - but had already made a false arrest.)
I very much doubt that the appeals will overturn the disciplinary actions, and in the case of the lieutenant, may actually make things worse for him. (You're right, we shouldn't have demoted you - we should have fired you, please hand over your badge and gun.)
Depending on jurisdiction - yes or no. It varies from state to state and sometimes city to city.
For Salt Lake City. in particular, I do not know.
Remember - the disciplinary actions against the officers was not the result of a trial - so double jeopardy does not pertain.
If the final decision is made that they broke the laws in this matter, they could yet face further action. (I consider this unlikely, given that Wubbels has settled.)
The Auld Grump - the settlement removes some of the pressure from the department.
Mind you, strange things can happen when police officers and law enforcement officials to not know that they are being recorded.
When I encountered this, I was honestly expecting something a bit... grittier. Instead, a sheriff's deputy that was getting ready to retire, with no clue there was a camera.
TheAuldGrump wrote: Mind you, strange things can happen when police officers and law enforcement officials to not know that they are being recorded.
When I encountered this, I was honestly expecting something a bit... grittier. Instead, a sheriff's deputy that was getting ready to retire, with no clue there was a camera.
TheAuldGrump wrote: Mind you, strange things can happen when police officers and law enforcement officials to not know that they are being recorded.
When I encountered this, I was honestly expecting something a bit... grittier. Instead, a sheriff's deputy that was getting ready to retire, with no clue there was a camera.
The Auld Grump
Made my day, thanks.
I love how they all just play it cool everytime someone new walks in.
Ouze wrote: Of course it hasn't - this was a white, blonde woman a cop roughed up and briefly detained, not a dead, unarmed black teenager.
Oh you, you almost didn't make this about identity politics.
You and I specifically talked about this explicitly in this thread one page ago, so either you can't follow a conversation, or you're pretending you can't so you can take a swipe.Which is it? They're both pretty lame.
This is America - if you rough up a white, blonde woman on video, you're gonna have a bad time.
