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The "but it's not fair that I got caught on camera" argument is stupid when criminals use it, and utterly pathetic when cops being criminals use it.

I understand that their are certain tactics and actions that may make an outsider raise an eyebrow, even if they are appropriate. I once explained to someone why it was needed to have 5 officers hold a struggling woman down. Being "fair" has nothing to do with it, it's supposed to be unfair and results in fewer injuries for both sides. Complaining you got caught being stupid is in a whole different department.

 Ouze wrote:

 feeder wrote:
Maybe there is a systemic problem with police abusing their power if that is their actual defense.

Sounds like you don't support the troops.

That's so baity.

Was using jingoism as a easy way to deflect from difficult conversations too transparently manipulative? Because it seems to be working pretty well in other venues.

 Ouze wrote:
Was using jingoism as a easy way to deflect from difficult conversations too transparently manipulative? Because it seems to be working pretty well in other venues.

The fact that people cannot tell the difference between a satirical remark and genuine intent should be setting off klaxons literally everywhere. This is an Actual Problem.

Salt Lake City shortens time for release of body cam footage to 10 Business Days after incidents.

One of the complaints people have had over this case was how long it took before the incident was acted upon - and that action waited until the video footage was made public.

This seems... a worthwhile change.

The Auld Grump

Yeah, it seems pretty obvious now that with body cam footage, the standard is to release it immediately if it clears the cop, and sit on it forever if it doesn't. A standard streamlined policy would be best.

 Ouze wrote:
Yeah, it seems pretty obvious now that with body cam footage, the standard is to release it immediately if it clears the cop, and sit on it forever if it doesn't. A standard streamlined policy would be best.

Wait thats not the standard streamlined policy?

Lieutenant Tracy is appealing his demotion, in the wake of the incident.

Detective Payne, who was fired following the incident, is also appealing - his termination letter was 17 pages long, and was not kindly worded.

One of my favorite lines from Tracy on the footage - "I don’t need you to make a phone call to tell me what authority I have because I know what authority I have."

Turned out that, no - he neither knew what authority he had, nor did he, in fact, have that authority.

Whoops.

The Auld Grump

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Lieutenant Tracy is appealing his demotion, in the wake of the incident.

Detective Payne, who was fired following the incident, is also appealing - his termination letter was 17 pages long, and was not kindly worded.

One of my favorite lines from Tracy on the footage - "I don’t need you to make a phone call to tell me what authority I have because I know what authority I have."

Turned out that, no - he neither knew what authority he had, nor did he, in fact, have that authority.

Whoops.

The Auld Grump

Hardly surprising, and speaks to a dramatic lack of self-consciousness, but is also to be expected.

And sadly, such things are routinely overturned. Lets hope they stick in this case.

We shall see.

Appealing this is just... I don't know the word, but upsetting.

Everyone I know, the Grand Jury, their bosses, the hospital, and the city all know they fethed up.

I don't know if they're truly obtuse enough to honestly believe that they didn't feth up, and this punishment was wrongful.

If you know you fethed up, and you're a cop who is supposed to be the moral upstanding role-model of the community, isn't appealing just admitting "yeah, I fethed up, but I shouldn't be penalized! That's not fair!"

and the nurse settles the court case for 500,000. it's a shame the tax payers have to foot the bill instead of the police and the officers involved though.

I hope she left the option open to claim even more cash if either of the chuckle heads involved win their appeals (stranger things have happened)

The article in Salt Lake Tribune.

It is, perhaps, important to note that part of that settlement is going to a fund to help others get body-cam footage when needed, and that the legal services that helped her achieve that settlement will be providing pro bono representation for those seeking footage.

And part is going as a donation to the Utah Nurses Association - to help fight the abuse of nurses at their job.

Not just a money grab on Nurse Wubbels' part. She was well and truly ticked off at her treatment by these yahoos - and with damned good reason.

The Auld Grump

sirlynchmob wrote:
and the nurse settles the court case for 500,000. it's a shame the tax payers have to foot the bill instead of the police and the officers involved though.

It's truly amazing to me how much differently the justice system works when the victim of policy brutality is a blonde white woman - one who was neither seriously injured nor even actually arrested, just briefly detained.

I mean, it shouldn't be surprising anymore, but it still is.

 Ouze wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
and the nurse settles the court case for 500,000. it's a shame the tax payers have to foot the bill instead of the police and the officers involved though.

It's truly amazing to me how much differently the justice system works when the victim of policy brutality is a blonde white woman - one who was neither seriously injured nor even actually arrested, just briefly detained.

I mean, it shouldn't be surprising anymore, but it still is.

It may surprise you that there were folks on the other side of the issue that were saying that 'you wouldn't see that kind of outcry if it were a white person being arrested!' as though the reason people were reacting to incidents of police brutality was because the victims were black.

Well, this time the victim was white, and we did see an outcry...

Still, I am glad that this incident came to light, hopefully, in the future, incidents of brutality against black people will also get the recognition needed.

That it is uneven is a given, black people are being persecuted at a much greater rate - but that being the case does not mean that the attacks on white people should not be recognized as well. It is the brutality that needs to stop.

The Auld Grump

 Ouze wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
and the nurse settles the court case for 500,000. it's a shame the tax payers have to foot the bill instead of the police and the officers involved though.

It's truly amazing to me how much differently the justice system works when the victim of policy brutality is a blonde white woman - one who was neither seriously injured nor even actually arrested, just briefly detained.

I mean, it shouldn't be surprising anymore, but it still is.

There are more than enough cases where cops walk when a white person is brutalized, such as the homeless person who was just sitting by a wall and was beaten to death by several cops. The entire incident was recorded and the cops walked.

Relapse wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
and the nurse settles the court case for 500,000. it's a shame the tax payers have to foot the bill instead of the police and the officers involved though.

It's truly amazing to me how much differently the justice system works when the victim of policy brutality is a blonde white woman - one who was neither seriously injured nor even actually arrested, just briefly detained.

I mean, it shouldn't be surprising anymore, but it still is.

There are more than enough cases where cops walk when a white person is brutalized, such as the homeless person who was just sitting by a wall and was beaten to death by several cops. The entire incident was recorded and the cops walked.

That's classism though.

America has a gak-ton of classism and racism both. If that white person who was brutalized had been Will Smith (a black, rich person) there would have been an outcry. If that white person who was killed was Bill Gates (a white, rich person) then there would have been an outcry.

Yeah, it's like a D&D alignment table in that way.

 Ouze wrote:
Yeah, it's like a D&D alignment table in that way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality

Mario wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Yeah, it's like a D&D alignment table in that way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality

That's exactly what I was thinking.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
and the nurse settles the court case for 500,000. it's a shame the tax payers have to foot the bill instead of the police and the officers involved though.

It's truly amazing to me how much differently the justice system works when the victim of policy brutality is a blonde white woman - one who was neither seriously injured nor even actually arrested, just briefly detained.

I mean, it shouldn't be surprising anymore, but it still is.

There are more than enough cases where cops walk when a white person is brutalized, such as the homeless person who was just sitting by a wall and was beaten to death by several cops. The entire incident was recorded and the cops walked.

That's classism though.

America has a gak-ton of classism and racism both. If that white person who was brutalized had been Will Smith (a black, rich person) there would have been an outcry. If that white person who was killed was Bill Gates (a white, rich person) then there would have been an outcry.

The point is, though, there is a seeming blanket statement made that white people get a pass when that isn't true.

You seem to, for some reason, be interpreting what I said as "no white person has ever been victimized by the cops, ever, and the cops skated on it". That's not what I said or what I meant.

There are different levels of justice typically dispensed to different people based on where they lie on the socioeconomic ladder of American society. Even though I am aware that a blonde white woman is pretty high up on that ladder, although somewhat lower than a celebrity, or a mega-rich person, I was still surprised that the wheels of justice moved so swiftly in this case. Half a million bucks for being briefly detained? At no point did the media run a campaign reminding us She Was No Angel, and pictures of her with a gun or a drink or a shoplifting arrest as a teenager? You must know these results are not evenly averaged among victims of police injustice.

To add a different note - had the police not tried to just ignore the incident, it is likely that nothing much would have happened - a brief apology, and sending Wubbels on her way.

It was as much the coverup - or at least perception of a coverup - that made this news.

The officers had not even bothered reporting the incident.

Which also leaves the police department in the position that they have to act, or risk being seen as condoning the officers' behavior and actions.

The coverup has done more damage than the incident itself.

The Auld Grump

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
To add a different note - had the police not tried to just ignore the incident, it is likely that nothing much would have happened - a brief apology, and sending Wubbels on her way.

It was as much the coverup - or at least perception of a coverup - that made this news.

The officers had not even bothered reporting the incident.

Which also leaves the police department in the position that they have to act, or risk being seen as condoning the officers' behavior and actions.

The coverup has done more damage than the incident itself.

The Auld Grump

And this is why it's important to continually pressure law enforcement agencies to be transparent and call BS on them when they make excuses.

Ultimately they are organizations which are run and staffed by humans, with all the issues that involves. They arent perfect, they can and will abuse their power and seek to get away with it, and a free society must keep its police accountable for them to operate in a manner that actually benefits society instead of just turning them into the biggest gang on the street.

Nobody should ever simply just trust the police, in any capacity.

 Ouze wrote:
You seem to, for some reason, be interpreting what I said as "no white person has ever been victimized by the cops, ever, and the cops skated on it". That's not what I said or what I meant.

There are different levels of justice typically dispensed to different people based on where they lie on the socioeconomic ladder of American society. Even though I am aware that a blonde white woman is pretty high up on that ladder, although somewhat lower than a celebrity, or a mega-rich person, I was still surprised that the wheels of justice moved so swiftly in this case. Half a million bucks for being briefly detained? At no point did the media run a campaign reminding us She Was No Angel, and pictures of her with a gun or a drink or a shoplifting arrest as a teenager? You must know these results are not evenly averaged among victims of police injustice.

There is the flip side to this. There are many people that have been held out as victims of "police brutality" that probably weren't. Yes, pulling up pictures of them with a drink is bad, but so is pulling out the picture of the "victim" as a 12-year-old in a choir robe after they just punched a cop and tried to take their gun, or bringing up how they work with at-risk youth after pulling a knife.

While I fully support calling out bad cops for bad behavior, I truly want to shake my head at the number of idiots that try backing every violent instigator.

 cuda1179 wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
You seem to, for some reason, be interpreting what I said as "no white person has ever been victimized by the cops, ever, and the cops skated on it". That's not what I said or what I meant.

There are different levels of justice typically dispensed to different people based on where they lie on the socioeconomic ladder of American society. Even though I am aware that a blonde white woman is pretty high up on that ladder, although somewhat lower than a celebrity, or a mega-rich person, I was still surprised that the wheels of justice moved so swiftly in this case. Half a million bucks for being briefly detained? At no point did the media run a campaign reminding us She Was No Angel, and pictures of her with a gun or a drink or a shoplifting arrest as a teenager? You must know these results are not evenly averaged among victims of police injustice.

There is the flip side to this. There are many people that have been held out as victims of "police brutality" that probably weren't. Yes, pulling up pictures of them with a drink is bad, but so is pulling out the picture of the "victim" as a 12-year-old in a choir robe after they just punched a cop and tried to take their gun, or bringing up how they work with at-risk youth after pulling a knife.

While I fully support calling out bad cops for bad behavior, I truly want to shake my head at the number of idiots that try backing every violent instigator.

Which is also part of why having the cam footage available is important.

When the police are doing their jobs properly, it protects the officers.

When the police are abusing their position, it protects the public.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes.

In this case, the officers talked about the fact that they did not have probable cause - and tried to pretend that nothing had happened. (And why I found the Lieutenant's quote about 'knowing what his authority was' so damning - because when he stopped and thought it through, he realized that he didn't have that authority - but had already made a false arrest.)

I very much doubt that the appeals will overturn the disciplinary actions, and in the case of the lieutenant, may actually make things worse for him. (You're right, we shouldn't have demoted you - we should have fired you, please hand over your badge and gun.)

The Auld Grump

Agreed. The Lt. shouldn't win on appeal. Do they have the power to further punish him?

Depending on jurisdiction - yes or no. It varies from state to state and sometimes city to city.

For Salt Lake City. in particular, I do not know.

Remember - the disciplinary actions against the officers was not the result of a trial - so double jeopardy does not pertain.

If the final decision is made that they broke the laws in this matter, they could yet face further action. (I consider this unlikely, given that Wubbels has settled.)

The Auld Grump - the settlement removes some of the pressure from the department.

Mind you, strange things can happen when police officers and law enforcement officials to not know that they are being recorded.



When I encountered this, I was honestly expecting something a bit... grittier. Instead, a sheriff's deputy that was getting ready to retire, with no clue there was a camera.

The Auld Grump