techsoldaten wrote: Uh.... technically you are correct, the BRB does not include that sentence. That is an original statement by techsoldaten.
But the BRB does spell out the Movement phase in the exact sequence that I described. And that is everything the rules have to say about the Movement phase - complete those actions.
Those are the rules, there's nothing ambiguous about them. Once they are complete, the player is at the end of the Movement phase. Reinforcements can arrive, and a lot of other things can happen, as I have been spelling out throughout this thread.
There is NOTHING in the BRB or any of the rules for units to suggest any other interpretation. It says what happens in the phase, and then there is some stuff that happens afterwards before you move onto the Psychic phase.
So, cite something from the BRB that proves something else or continue proving how wrong a person can be.
But this is stupid, you're arguing I'm trying to trick people by summarizing the rules. Anyone can read page 177 and see exactly how they work.
Can you answer my question as to whether you agree that you move your units during the phase and that the end of the phase follows this?
If so how can you possibly believe that stratagems that can be played during the phase can also be played at the end of said phase?
Unless you believe that I can move other units after bringing in reinforcements.
techsoldaten wrote: Moving after reinforcements arrive is actually against the rules. The BRB specifically prohibits this.
Do you try to argue this way with people in real life?
Can you quote the rulebook and give a page number please?
Page 177, in the right column, under 'Reinforcements':
"Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive."
OK.
Now where does it say I can't move ANOTHER UNIT after reinforcing?
It doesn't need to. p. 177, under Reinforcements:
"Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases."
The Movement phase is spelled out on p. 177 as a series of actions: Moving, Minimum Move, Enemy Models, Falling Back, and Advancing. Once these actions are complete, that's when reinforcements arrive - it's the end of the Movement phase.
So additional movement is not possible, because it specifically happens before reinforcements arrive. The rules say that.
What the rules don't say is, once reinforcements arrive, the player is now in the Psychic phase. That rule, or something like it, would exclude Stratagems that must be used during the Movement phase from being applied.
But Stratagems say when Stratagems can be applied. And GW has consistently enforced the simplest interpretation in FAQs.
Unless there is some rule you can point to that says after reinforcements arrive the player is now immediately in the Psychic phase, then the player is still in the Movement phase. I have provided plenty of examples in this thread of other things happening during the Movement phase after reinforcements arrive.
So, point to a rule or cease this silliness.
What the rules do say thougjh, is "their entire Movement phase it used in deploying on the battlefield" (just arfter the part you are quoting). It hasn't arrived until it's used its entire movement phase and is finally deployed. If it's used the engire movement phase fo rthat, then it's used the entire movement phase during which time you would play the stratagem.
The complete sentence, with context, is:
"Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or advance further during the turn they arrive - their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield - but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) ."
Which means:
- the unit cannot move further during the turn they arrive
- the unit cannot advance further during the turn they arrive
- the unit can shoot the turn they arrive
- the unit can charge the turn they arrive
- the unit can etc the turn they arrive
- and NOTHING else
The part about "their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield" explains why they can't move further, and nothing else.
If you want to argue the unit is not on the battlefield and thus cannot be the target of a Stratagem, I would ask why they can be shot up by certain units on the battlefield when they are arriving.
If you want to argue the unit can't do something else during the Movement phase other than move or advance, I would ask why units are allowed to disembark from transports arriving as reinforcements (disembarking happens at the start of the Movement phase.)
But, honestly, I don't care what you have to say unless you are pointing at a rule from the BRB. And so is everyone else who disagrees with this highly imaginative interpretation of the rules.
techsoldaten wrote: Uh.... technically you are correct, the BRB does not include that sentence. That is an original statement by techsoldaten.
But the BRB does spell out the Movement phase in the exact sequence that I described. And that is everything the rules have to say about the Movement phase - complete those actions.
Those are the rules, there's nothing ambiguous about them. Once they are complete, the player is at the end of the Movement phase. Reinforcements can arrive, and a lot of other things can happen, as I have been spelling out throughout this thread.
There is NOTHING in the BRB or any of the rules for units to suggest any other interpretation. It says what happens in the phase, and then there is some stuff that happens afterwards before you move onto the Psychic phase.
So, cite something from the BRB that proves something else or continue proving how wrong a person can be.
But this is stupid, you're arguing I'm trying to trick people by summarizing the rules. Anyone can read page 177 and see exactly how they work.
Can you answer my question as to whether you agree that you move your units during the phase and that the end of the phase follows this?
If so how can you possibly believe that stratagems that can be played during the phase can also be played at the end of said phase?
Unless you believe that I can move other units after bringing in reinforcements.
I choose not to until you cite a rule from the BRB that says a player is moved into the Psychic phase once reinforcements arrive.
Because arguing with someone who just makes stuff up, can't read, or both is tiresome.
techsoldaten wrote: I choose not to until you cite a rule from the BRB that says a player is moved into the Psychic phase once reinforcements arrive.
Because arguing with someone who just makes stuff up, can't read, or both is tiresome.
You just cited the rule yourself "Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or advance further during the turn they arrive - their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield."
Not that it is relevant to my question. Now can you answer it or we're done here and I hate to tell you but refusing to acknowledge something does not change it's validity. Also calm your insults. I've told you how tired I am of explaining the same thing to different people.
techsoldaten wrote: I choose not to until you cite a rule from the BRB that says a player is moved into the Psychic phase once reinforcements arrive.
Because arguing with someone who just makes stuff up, can't read, or both is tiresome.
You just cited the rule yourself "Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or advance further during the turn they arrive - their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield."
Not that it is relevant to my question. Now can you answer it or we're done here and I hate to tell you but refusing to acknowledge something does not change it's validity. Also calm your insults. I've told you how tired I am of explaining the same thing to different people.
I cited that rule to you several posts back. The fact you chose not to read it, or could not, is not my fault.
If you are offering to leave, I accept. That's very generous of you and I wish you Godspeed.
techsoldaten wrote: I cited that rule to you several posts back. The fact you chose not to read it, or could not, is not my fault.
If you are offering to leave, I accept.
Again, for the second time now, it is irrelevant to my question that you still refuse to answer presumably because it completely disproves your false assumption or you also struggle with basic reading comprehension.
Also worth noting that you cited half of the rule. You omitted the part that didn't suit your argument.
OK. Fun talk. It's good to know that the age old technique of "if I ignore the counterpoint, maybe it will go away" is still alive and strong.
E - I wasn't offering to leave, clearly it's impossible to have a discussion with someone who refuses to answer a question when asked. That is not having a discussion, that is you stating your misguided opinion and literally refusing to comment on anything that is in disagreement with it. Why are you here? Clearly you aren't interested in discussing this like a reasoned adult.
techsoldaten wrote: I cited that rule to you several posts back. The fact you chose not to read it, or could not, is not my fault.
If you are offering to leave, I accept.
Again, for the second time now, it is irrelevant to my question that you still refuse to answer presumably because it completely disproves your false assumption or you also struggle with basic reading comprehension.
Also worth noting that you cited half of the rule. You omitted the part that didn't suit your argument.
OK. Fun talk. It's good to know that the age old technique of "if I ignore the counterpoint, maybe it will go away" is still alive and strong.
It makes a little more sense than most of your responses in this thread.
techsoldaten wrote: It makes a little more sense than most of your responses in this thread.
Quote some rules to support your interpretation.
Still refusing to answer the question huh? I'm not sure why you're throwing childish insults around and refusing to discuss this like an adult.
You realise there is nowhere in the BRB that spells out this particular issue right? You understand that we are interpreting exactly the same rules differently?
The Movement phase is spelled out on p. 177 (as you have said - I literally copied your text here).
Reinforcements happen as detailed in the specific rules for the unit or stratagem that allows it. Typically they state that they happen "at the end of the movement phase". For the sake of this discussion, we are assuming they follow these rules.
By definition I move units during the movement phase. I cannot move another unit (reinforcement or not) after bringing in any number of reinforcements. The reason for this is the wording "at the end of the movement phase". We have another bit of evidence to back this up with the rules regarding reinforcements taking the "entire movement phase" that has also been elaborated on the previous page a few posts back.
CoF must be played during the movement phase. If I can do this after reinforcing, so too can I move units. We know one of these is false so we can safely assume the other is also.
JakeSiren wrote: Strategic discipline says that its restrictions apply during each phase. CoF says that it is used during the movement phase. Notice the same use of during for both of these rules?
Thank you for confirming your inconsistency of applying your definition of "during the x phase". You have demonstrated that you are willing to ignore aspects of rules that don't match how you think it should be played. There is no benefit to discussing with you as your arguments aren't based within the rules, are not logical, or consistent in your approach.
When do I move my models? Is it during a phase?
Oh so I can reinforce then move other models? Because that's still during the phase right? According to your definition.
Thank you for confirming your inconsistency of applying your definition of "during the x phase". You have demonstrated that you are willing to ignore aspects of rules that don't match how you think it should be played. There is no benefit to discussing with you as your arguments aren't based within the rules, are not logical, or consistent in your approach.
E - perhaps you should quote the entire Strategic Discipline rule? It's also pretty poor debating etiquette to effectively trick someone by repeatedly asking the same inane question to prove a weak and moot point.
The reason for the 10 page debate is because there are inconsistencies. Note my example above.
I have addressed that strawman multiple times now, and won't bother repeating myself.
But we aren't talking about the argument that I put forwards, we are talking about yours. The fact that you are trying to divert attention away from a weaknesses in your interpretation demonstrates that you have no counter argument.
I did nothing to trick you. I asked about Strategic Discipline, and you didn't bother reading the rule. The question was not inane as it demonstrated the result of making an assumption about the end of the movement phase. If you can't be bothered reading the rules then don't post!
JakeSiren wrote: I have addressed that strawman multiple times now, and won't bother repeating myself.
1. You haven't addressed this, ever. Feel free to post your counterpoint, it shouldn't take long if you've already done it "multiple times".
2. It isn't a strawman.
JakeSiren wrote: I have addressed that strawman multiple times now, and won't bother repeating myself.
1. You haven't addressed this, ever. Feel free to post your counterpoint, it shouldn't take long if you've already done it "multiple times".
2. It isn't a strawman.
And it's irrelevant to what is being discussed right now. Your response to my demonstration of your argument being incorrect is to say "yeah, but yours is too", and "you tricked my by reading the rules". Nice counter argument.
JakeSiren wrote: I have addressed that strawman multiple times now, and won't bother repeating myself.
1. You haven't addressed this, ever. Feel free to post your counterpoint, it shouldn't take long if you've already done it "multiple times".
2. It isn't a strawman.
And it's irrelevant to what is being discussed right now. Your response to my demonstration of your argument being incorrect is to say "yeah, but yours is too", and "you tricked my by reading the rules". Nice counter argument.
What? Aren't we discussing rules? Aren't we offering points around which we can try to come to a conclusion on a ruling?
Your entire reason for posting in this thread seems less to offer a solution and a suggestion as to what might be the correct way to play, but to instead pick holes in others' suggestions. I have yet to see you offer your own interpretation of the rules or reasons for why you believe CoF can (or can't) be played on reinforcements.
In fact I've gone through your "contribution" to this thread and as far as I can tell all of your posts are the same thing - "So, if I understand you correctly you believe x to be y." which is always the most illogical and wrong interpretation of what someone has said. Then when they respond with "No, that's not what I said Jake" you act confused and ask random, pointless questions.
You, nor anyone else here has yet to counter the most simple argument against playing CoF on a unit that has reinforced - you play it during the phase which is also when you move. If you can't move you can't play the stratagem.
E - post your addressing of the strawman Jake, I'm really interested to see it. If it exists of course.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Still refusing to answer the question huh? I'm not sure why you're throwing childish insults around and refusing to discuss this like an adult.
No. I'm refusing to be ordered around. Make your argument without telling me what to do.
This is the You Make Da Call forum. We cite rules here. Those who cannot prove they do not understand them, and others correct them.
An Actual Englishman wrote: You realise there is nowhere in the BRB that spells out this particular issue right? You understand that we are interpreting exactly the same rules differently?
Absolutely, I realize there are no rules supporting the argument you are making.
I have been citing the rules that exist to prove that point.
If you would like to make an argument, point people at pages in the BRB that support what you are saying.
An Actual Englishman wrote: The Movement phase is spelled out on p. 177 (as you have said - I literally copied your text here).
Reinforcements happen as detailed in the specific rules for the unit or stratagem that allows it. Typically they state that they happen "at the end of the movement phase". For the sake of this discussion, we are assuming they follow these rules.
Sure, that sounds reasonable.
An Actual Englishman wrote: By definition I move units during the movement phase. I cannot move another unit (reinforcement or not) after bringing in any number of reinforcements. The reason for this is the wording "at the end of the movement phase". We have another bit of evidence to back this up with the rules regarding reinforcements taking the "entire movement phase" that has also been elaborated on the previous page a few posts back.
That does not mean what you think it does. You are taking a phrase out of context and assigning it the importance of a phase in the player turn. Any reasonable person would disagree with that interpretation.
If that were the correct interpretation, it could also mean only one reinforcement could arrive per turn, because arriving signals a terminal end of the Movement phase. It would absolutely mean that units could not disembark from Kharybdis Assault Claws, Eldar could not shoot, and many other things could not happen.
8th edition is supposed to be streamlined. Just read the rules and follow what they say, without stretching the language to extremes.
An Actual Englishman wrote: CoF must be played during the movement phase. If I can do this after reinforcing, so too can I move units. We know one of these is false so we can safely assume the other is also.
No, you absolutely cannot move a unit after reinforcements arrive, for the reasons spelled out in the BRB. You MUST complete the actions described in the book before reinforcements can arrive, because that is the End of the Movement Phase. The Movement phase is literally spelled out in the book and you have to follow it.
That does not mean other things cannot happen during the Movement phase, after the required actions are complete. That just means reinforcements is not the termination of the phase, putting people immediately into the psychic phase.
Again, if you would like to prove me wrong, cite a rule. Everything you have said is just the way you would play it, it has nothing to do with what is in the rulebook.
JakeSiren wrote: I have addressed that strawman multiple times now, and won't bother repeating myself.
1. You haven't addressed this, ever. Feel free to post your counterpoint, it shouldn't take long if you've already done it "multiple times".
2. It isn't a strawman.
And it's irrelevant to what is being discussed right now. Your response to my demonstration of your argument being incorrect is to say "yeah, but yours is too", and "you tricked my by reading the rules". Nice counter argument.
What? Aren't we discussing rules? Aren't we offering points around which we can try to come to a conclusion on a ruling?
Your entire reason for posting in this thread seems less to offer a solution and a suggestion as to what might be the correct way to play, but to instead pick holes in others' suggestions. I have yet to see you offer your own interpretation of the rules or reasons for why you believe CoF can (or can't) be played on reinforcements.
In fact I've gone through your "contribution" to this thread and as far as I can tell all of your posts are the same thing - "So, if I understand you correctly you believe x to be y." which is always the most illogical and wrong interpretation of what someone has said. Then when they respond with "No, that's not what I said Jake" you act confused and ask random, pointless questions.
You, nor anyone else here has yet to counter the most simple argument against playing CoF on a unit that has reinforced - you play it during the phase which is also when you move. If you can't move you can't play the stratagem.
E - post your addressing of the strawman Jake, I'm really interested to see it. If it exists of course.
I like to specify what I understand from other people's posts. If I have read them wrong then they can simply answer "actually you misunderstood me, I actually meant x".
Regardless, I don't think there is a correct rules solution that doesn't cause problems else where. The best I have is a HIWPI that breaks the least assumptions of how I think the rules should function.
It is as follows:
The end of a phase occurs once all of the main actions of a phase are resolved.
The end of the phase is considered as a part/during the phase.
The end of phase is not an instant.
None of these are strictly RAW, and people are free to make up their HTWPI. But these make the most sense to me.
Your argument about the end of phase not being during the phase has implications on the Strategic Discipline rule which you don't seem to want to acknowledge.
Your argument about the end of phase not being during the phase has implications on the Strategic Discipline rule which you don't seem to want to acknowledge.
Such as being able to use Auspex Scan multiple times, because under his interpretation it’s “not used during a phase”.
techsoldaten wrote: No. I'm refusing to be ordered around. Make your argument without telling me what to do.
This is the You Make Da Call forum. We cite rules here. Those who cannot prove they do not understand them, and others correct them.
I've made my argument. You have yet to cite any rules that debunk it. Or you plain don't understand it.
Absolutely, I realize there are no rules supporting the argument you are making.
I have been citing the rules that exist to prove that point.
If you would like to make an argument, point people at pages in the BRB that support what you are saying.
I did and have multiple times throughout this thread. It's funny though, when I do raise points that you don't like/can't respond to/are directly taken from the BRB you completely ignore them and cut them out of your quotations when you reply.
There absolutely are rules yo support my point and further the basic rules of the game state that your perspective is entirely wrong.
That does not mean what you think it does. You are taking a phrase out of context and assigning it the importance of a phase in the player turn. Any reasonable person would disagree with that interpretation.
Great argument. "It doesn't mean what I think it does". Despite that being the most clear and obvious interpretation. Despite the rules directly backing this up.
If that were the correct interpretation, it could also mean only one reinforcement could arrive per turn, because arriving signals a terminal end of the Movement phase. It would absolutely mean that units could not disembark from Kharybdis Assault Claws, Eldar could not shoot, and many other things could not happen.
Wrong again. Reinforcing must be the last thing to happen during a phase apart from other things that too can happen at the end of the phase. With regards Kharybdis assault claws or Eldar firing their weapons you are discussing very specific rules that explicitly state they can be used out of normal sequence. These are exceptions, not the rule and they do not back up your view.
8th edition is supposed to be streamlined. Just read the rules and follow what they say, without stretching the language to extremes.
It's hardly 'stretching the language to extremes' to interpret during as before the end of the phase. Particularly when GW give a clear example of this in the rules (you can't move after reinforcing).
No, you absolutely cannot move a unit after reinforcements arrive, for the reasons spelled out in the BRB. You MUST complete the actions described in the book before reinforcements can arrive, because that is the End of the Movement Phase. The Movement phase is literally spelled out in the book and you have to follow it.
That does not mean other things cannot happen during the Movement phase, after the required actions are complete. That just means reinforcements is not the termination of the phase, putting people immediately into the psychic phase.
Again, if you would like to prove me wrong, cite a rule. Everything you have said is just the way you would play it, it has nothing to do with what is in the rulebook.
Show me in the rulebook where it states that I cannot move after reinforcing.
You assume this because GW separates during (which includes movement and all the other things you've written before) and the end of the phase in the reinforcements rules.
If this assumption exists for movement it must exist for the stratagem as they operate in exactly the same phase of the game.
If I don't move my units during the movement phase, please tell me when I do move them? If the end of the phase is not distinct from during the phase please explain why I cannot move units after reinforcing?
Your argument falls down so hard here I'm amazed you're still making it. You'll note some stratagems operate specifically at the end of the phase too.
It doesn't matter that the end of the phase is also during the phase. GW have spelled out as clear as day that one follows the other. You've said it yourself - I must move and do all other actions that happen during the phase before I can play reinforcements that happen at the end of the phase. This isn't a termination point in the straw man argument you keep making - it is however the end of your ability to play and do things that happen during the phase. Some specific rules may break this as you have claimed, CoF which we are here to discuss specifically, does not.
I like to specify what I understand from other people's posts. If I have read them wrong then they can simply answer "actually you misunderstood me, I actually meant x".
Regardless, I don't think there is a correct rules solution that doesn't cause problems else where. The best I have is a HIWPI that breaks the least assumptions of how I think the rules should function.
It is as follows:
The end of a phase occurs once all of the main actions of a phase are resolved.
The end of the phase is considered as a part/during the phase.
The end of phase is not an instant.
None of these are strictly RAW, and people are free to make up their HTWPI. But these make the most sense to me.
Your argument about the end of phase not being during the phase has implications on the Strategic Discipline rule which you don't seem to want to acknowledge.
You know your link doesn't go to any of your posts right? Unless my phone isn't processing it properly.
I read your posts, here's the rub - the time when the "main actions of a phase are resolved" to me, is during the phase. I believe this to be the most logical use of this word throughout the rules given the context of other rules.
I completely agree as I said earlier that there are implications regarding Strategic Discipline rule. I did this as soon as you finally made your point on it. It is no more of a stretch for me, however, to state that global, multiphase rules operate differently to single phase rules. This is no different to the claim that stratagems do not operate in the same way as everything else in the phase, which is the claim many of you seem to be making.
I like to specify what I understand from other people's posts. If I have read them wrong then they can simply answer "actually you misunderstood me, I actually meant x".
Regardless, I don't think there is a correct rules solution that doesn't cause problems else where. The best I have is a HIWPI that breaks the least assumptions of how I think the rules should function.
It is as follows:
The end of a phase occurs once all of the main actions of a phase are resolved.
The end of the phase is considered as a part/during the phase.
The end of phase is not an instant.
None of these are strictly RAW, and people are free to make up their HTWPI. But these make the most sense to me.
Your argument about the end of phase not being during the phase has implications on the Strategic Discipline rule which you don't seem to want to acknowledge.
You know your link doesn't go to any of your posts right? Unless my phone isn't processing it properly.
I read your posts, here's the rub - the time when the "main actions of a phase are resolved" to me, is during the phase. I believe this to be the most logical use of this word throughout the rules given the context of other rules.
I completely agree as I said earlier that there are implications regarding Strategic Discipline rule. I did this as soon as you finally made your point on it. It is no more of a stretch for me, however, to state that global, multiphase rules operate differently to single phase rules. This is no different to the claim that stratagems do not operate in the same way as everything else in the phase, which is the claim many of you seem to be making.
Maybe try this one? Looks like the direct link feature failed me.
Your problem is that there is no explicit definition of end of phase and during. There is also no reason to assume that the during in strategic discipline is different then the during for "during the movement phase" - infact it is more reasonable to assume that they are the same.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Wrong again. Reinforcing must be the last thing to happen during a phase apart from other things that too can happen at the end of the phase. With regards Kharybdis assault claws or Eldar firing their weapons you are discussing very specific rules that explicitly state they can be used out of normal sequence. These are exceptions, not the rule and they do not back up your view.
Where does the BRB state this however? Where does the BRB state that reinforcements come last? I've repeatedly asked for citation and yet to get any. And do not say that its proven by stating reinforcements come in at the end of the phase. Who says the end is a specific point in time? End has multiple definitions. Have you never heard that x happened at the end of a movie and it was awesome? Or When x betrayed y at the end of the book I was shocked? Or any other statement like that? And would you not say that something that happens at the end of a book or movie is not during the book or movie?
In fact where in your BRB does movement use the word during? This is what the BRB says about movement, I apologize for the long post but I'm gonna cite the lack of rules everyone says existed.
Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit until you’ve moved all the models you want to. You can then pick another unit to move, until you have moved as many of your units as you wish. No model can be moved more than once in each Movement phase.
Moving A model can be moved in any direction, to a distance, in inches, equal to or less than the Move characteristic on its datasheet. No part of the model’s base (or hull) can move further than this. It cannot be moved through other models or through terrain features such as walls, but can be moved vertically in order to climb or traverse any scenery. If the datasheet for a model says it can Fly, it can move across models and terrain as if they were not there.
Minimum Move Some models that can Fly have a Move characteristic consisting of two values. The first is the model’s minimum speed – in the Movement phase, all parts of the model’s base must end the move at least that far from where they started. The second is its maximum speed – no part of the model’s base can be moved further than this. If a model cannot make its minimum move, or is forced to move off the battlefield because of its minimum speed, it is destroyed and removed from the battlefield – the model has either stalled and crashed or been forced to abandon the battle.
Enemy Models All models in the same army are friendly models. Models controlled by an opposing player are enemy models. When you move a model in the Movement phase, it may not be moved within 1" of any enemy models.
Falling Back Units starting the Movement phase within 1" of an enemy unit can either remain stationary or Fall Back. If you choose to Fall Back, the unit must end its move more than 1" away from all enemy units. If a unit Falls Back, it cannot Advance (see below), or charge later that turn. A unit that Falls Back also cannot shoot later that turn unless it can Fly. Advancing When you pick a unit to move in the Movement phase, you can declare that it will Advance. Roll a dice and add the result to the Move characteristics of all models in the unit for that Movement phase. A unit that Advances can’t shoot or charge later that turn.
Reinforcements Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases. Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive – their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield – but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) for the rest of their turn. Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons. Any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the battle counts as having been destroyed.
Now, I have fully quoted the movement rules. Please tell me where it states the end is not during the movement phase? Actually according to the rules Movement happens at the start of the movement phase, not during, and not the end. That is why you cannot move any models after reinforcing. Because the rules state you move at the start of the movement phase. It's actually the first sentence. There for I have cited you the rules you asked for that states you cannot move units after reinforcing. Now please cite me the rule that states that the end of the phase is not still during the phase.
Zarroc1733 wrote: Sorry my point was misconstrued. I didn't mean those were the only arguments. I meant that is the entire crux of the debate. Is the end of the movement phase during the movement phase? I will be happy to agree with you if you can cite the rules that state the end of the movement phase is not during the movement phase. In my BRB all I see is Movement Psychic Shooting Charge Fight Morale. I do not see a Movement, End of Movement, Psychic, End of Psychic, Shooting, End of Shooting, Charge, End of Charge, Fight, End of Fight, Morale, End of Morale. Where does it say the end is not during the phase?
That being said I do believe the INTENT is that the stratagem should be used before reinforcements. However as it is the RAW aren't clear. Therefor it needs an faq. I'll honestly be pleased with either way it's ruled but I do expect it will be ruled that it can't be used after reinforcements.
I think RAW and RAI the intent is for the Stratagem to be used any time during the movement phase.
'End of the Movement phase' really only refers to completion of the sequence of actions spelled out in the BRB.
Saying this for the following reasons:
1) Plenty of things that happen once reinforcements arrive. Disembarking, for example, commonly happens when a transport arrives from reserves. Some armies can shoot at things arriving from reserve.
2) When in doubt, go with the simplest interpretation of the Stratagem. Stratagems spell out their own restrictions and (typically) the simplest interpretation applies. Chaos Familiar from the CSM Codex says it can be applied to any Heretic Astartes Psyker. The FAQ says that includes Death Guard, despite people crying foul over language in other parts of the book. The Stratagem prevails!
3) Stratagems can be used and applied to a target at separate times in a phase. Reinforcements may arrive at the end of the phase, but there's nothing to prevent someone from using the Stratagem before they get there - and applying it once they are there.
4) Following up on point 1 - interpreting the phrase 'end of the Movement phase' to mean the Movement phase has reached a terminal point - means the player is in the psychic phase immediately after reinforcements arrive. I'm not aware of any rules that force a player to move into a new phase of the game, in this or any other edition. This seems very different from what GW has done in the past.
I still believe that RAI An Actual Englishman is correct but I'm not as certain as I was before. That being said while I said I didn't believe either way earlier RAW I do believe now that you can use CoF on reinforcements. Nothing states that the end isn't during the phase and the argument that if you could use CoF after reinforcing then you can also move after reinforcing has been debunked (as the rules state that you move at the start of your movement phase) there for until we get an faq I do believe RAW allows CoF on reinforcements.
This whole thread has descended in to pages of you guys telling each other your arguments are irrelevant. I really think it's time to put this to rest. Clearly there isn't a definitive answer to this issue at this time, there will be no compromise here or it would have happened hundreds of posts previously.
Let's add this to the list of FAQ requests and move on.
Stux wrote: This whole thread has descended in to pages of you guys telling each other your arguments are irrelevant. I really think it's time to put this to rest. Clearly there isn't a definitive answer to this issue at this time, there will be no compromise here or it would have happened hundreds of posts previously.
Let's add this to the list of FAQ requests and move on.
I'm pretty sure that's what An Actual Englishman means to do, shut down the thread.
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An Actual Englishman wrote: I've made my argument. You have yet to cite any rules that debunk it. Or you plain don't understand it.
Or maybe you cannot consider points that don't agree with your own perspective and see every debate as a contest of wills.
I've read everything you've written. You are trying to elevate a phrase in the BRB to the level of a phase in the player turn cycle.
You have yet to cite a rule that supports what you are arguing. I mean, in response to being asked to cite a rule to support your view, you said:
An Actual Englishman wrote: You realise there is nowhere in the BRB that spells out this particular issue right?
Which literally means you are just making stuff up. Pathetic that you can't see that.
Zarroc1733 wrote: Where does the BRB state this however? Where does the BRB state that reinforcements come last? I've repeatedly asked for citation and yet to get any. And do not say that its proven by stating reinforcements come in at the end of the phase. Who says the end is a specific point in time? End has multiple definitions. Have you never heard that x happened at the end of a movie and it was awesome? Or When x betrayed y at the end of the book I was shocked? Or any other statement like that? And would you not say that something that happens at the end of a book or movie is not during the book or movie?
In fact where in your BRB does movement use the word during? This is what the BRB says about movement, I apologize for the long post but I'm gonna cite the lack of rules everyone says existed.
Spoiler:
Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit until you’ve moved all the models you want to. You can then pick another unit to move, until you have moved as many of your units as you wish. No model can be moved more than once in each Movement phase.
Moving
A model can be moved in any direction, to a distance, in inches, equal to or less than the Move characteristic on its datasheet. No part of the model’s base (or hull) can move further than this. It cannot be moved through other models or through terrain features such as walls, but can be moved vertically in order to climb or traverse any scenery. If the datasheet for a model says it can Fly, it can move across models and terrain as if they were not there.
Minimum Move
Some models that can Fly have a Move characteristic consisting of two values. The first is the model’s minimum speed – in the Movement phase, all parts of the model’s base must end the move at least that far from where they started. The second is its maximum speed – no part of the model’s base can be moved further than this. If a model cannot make its minimum move, or is forced to move off the battlefield because of its minimum speed, it is destroyed and removed from the battlefield – the model has either stalled and crashed or been forced to abandon the battle.
Enemy Models
All models in the same army are friendly models. Models controlled by an opposing player are enemy models. When you move a model in the Movement phase, it may not be moved within 1" of any enemy models.
Falling Back
Units starting the Movement phase within 1" of an enemy unit can either remain stationary or Fall Back. If you choose to Fall Back, the unit must end its move more than 1" away from all enemy units. If a unit Falls Back, it cannot Advance (see below), or charge later that turn. A unit that Falls Back also cannot shoot later that turn unless it can Fly.
Advancing
When you pick a unit to move in the Movement phase, you can declare that it will Advance. Roll a dice and add the result to the Move characteristics of all models in the unit for that Movement phase. A unit that Advances can’t shoot or charge later that turn.
Reinforcements
Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases. Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive – their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield – but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) for the rest of their turn. Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons. Any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the battle counts as having been destroyed.
Now, I have fully quoted the movement rules. Please tell me where it states the end is not during the movement phase? Actually according to the rules Movement happens at the start of the movement phase, not during, and not the end. That is why you cannot move any models after reinforcing. Because the rules state you move at the start of the movement phase. It's actually the first sentence. There for I have cited you the rules you asked for that states you cannot move units after reinforcing. Now please cite me the rule that states that the end of the phase is not still during the phase.
Please, no more dictionary definitions, they do not help us here and only lead to confusion.
The BRB says nowhere that reinforcements are the last thing to happen during the movement phase.
What reinforcements do say (on the rule that allows them to reinforce, typically) is that they happen "at the end of the movement phase".
What is something that happens during the phase? Movement? Advancing? Falling back? I would argue yes they are and it seems everyone agrees because, unless I am mistaken we are all in agreement that we cannot move after bringing on reinforcements.
If this is the case we have all assumed that it is because of the wording "at the end of the phase". If we make this assumption, then it must, by definition, follow a period in time when I could move and advance and fall back. If that isn't done during the phase I don't know what is.
Continue to throw around insults Tech. It isn't helping your case.
I see you still have no answer to this;
Spoiler:
Show me in the rulebook where it states that I cannot move after reinforcing.
You assume this because GW separates during (which includes movement and all the other things you've written before) and the end of the phase in the reinforcements rules.
If this assumption exists for movement it must exist for the stratagem as they operate in exactly the same phase of the game.
If I don't move my units during the movement phase, please tell me when I do move them? If the end of the phase is not distinct from during the phase please explain why I cannot move units after reinforcing?
Your argument falls down so hard here I'm amazed you're still making it. You'll note some stratagems operate specifically at the end of the phase too.
It doesn't matter that the end of the phase is also during the phase. GW have spelled out as clear as day that one follows the other. You've said it yourself - I must move and do all other actions that happen during the phase before I can play reinforcements that happen at the end of the phase. This isn't a termination point in the straw man argument you keep making - it is however the end of your ability to play and do things that happen during the phase. Some specific rules may break this as you have claimed, CoF which we are here to discuss specifically, does not.
Zarroc1733 wrote: I still believe that RAI An Actual Englishman is correct but I'm not as certain as I was before. That being said while I said I didn't believe either way earlier RAW I do believe now that you can use CoF on reinforcements. Nothing states that the end isn't during the phase and the argument that if you could use CoF after reinforcing then you can also move after reinforcing has been debunked (as the rules state that you move at the start of your movement phase) there for until we get an faq I do believe RAW allows CoF on reinforcements.
Sure. RAW it seems pretty clear, but I accept GW could clear this up with a FAQ.
All I was saying is other FAQ items, like Death Guard / Chaos Familiar, are resolved by referring to the simplest reading of the Stratagem. My guess is they would come down on the side of using it, since 'end of the Movement phase' is a phrase in a book.
Zarroc1733 wrote: Where does the BRB state this however? Where does the BRB state that reinforcements come last? I've repeatedly asked for citation and yet to get any. And do not say that its proven by stating reinforcements come in at the end of the phase. Who says the end is a specific point in time? End has multiple definitions. Have you never heard that x happened at the end of a movie and it was awesome? Or When x betrayed y at the end of the book I was shocked? Or any other statement like that? And would you not say that something that happens at the end of a book or movie is not during the book or movie?
In fact where in your BRB does movement use the word during? This is what the BRB says about movement, I apologize for the long post but I'm gonna cite the lack of rules everyone says existed.
Spoiler:
Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit until you’ve moved all the models you want to. You can then pick another unit to move, until you have moved as many of your units as you wish. No model can be moved more than once in each Movement phase.
Moving A model can be moved in any direction, to a distance, in inches, equal to or less than the Move characteristic on its datasheet. No part of the model’s base (or hull) can move further than this. It cannot be moved through other models or through terrain features such as walls, but can be moved vertically in order to climb or traverse any scenery. If the datasheet for a model says it can Fly, it can move across models and terrain as if they were not there.
Minimum Move Some models that can Fly have a Move characteristic consisting of two values. The first is the model’s minimum speed – in the Movement phase, all parts of the model’s base must end the move at least that far from where they started. The second is its maximum speed – no part of the model’s base can be moved further than this. If a model cannot make its minimum move, or is forced to move off the battlefield because of its minimum speed, it is destroyed and removed from the battlefield – the model has either stalled and crashed or been forced to abandon the battle.
Enemy Models All models in the same army are friendly models. Models controlled by an opposing player are enemy models. When you move a model in the Movement phase, it may not be moved within 1" of any enemy models.
Falling Back Units starting the Movement phase within 1" of an enemy unit can either remain stationary or Fall Back. If you choose to Fall Back, the unit must end its move more than 1" away from all enemy units. If a unit Falls Back, it cannot Advance (see below), or charge later that turn. A unit that Falls Back also cannot shoot later that turn unless it can Fly. Advancing When you pick a unit to move in the Movement phase, you can declare that it will Advance. Roll a dice and add the result to the Move characteristics of all models in the unit for that Movement phase. A unit that Advances can’t shoot or charge later that turn.
Reinforcements Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases. Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive – their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield – but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) for the rest of their turn. Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons. Any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the battle counts as having been destroyed.
Now, I have fully quoted the movement rules. Please tell me where it states the end is not during the movement phase? Actually according to the rules Movement happens at the start of the movement phase, not during, and not the end. That is why you cannot move any models after reinforcing. Because the rules state you move at the start of the movement phase. It's actually the first sentence. There for I have cited you the rules you asked for that states you cannot move units after reinforcing. Now please cite me the rule that states that the end of the phase is not still during the phase.
Please, no more dictionary definitions, they do not help us here and only lead to confusion.
The BRB says nowhere that reinforcements are the last thing to happen during the movement phase.
What reinforcements do say (on the rule that allows them to reinforce, typically) is that they happen "at the end of the movement phase".
What is something that happens during the phase? Movement? Advancing? Falling back? I would argue yes they are and it seems everyone agrees because, unless I am mistaken we are all in agreement that we cannot move after bringing on reinforcements.
If this is the case we have all assumed that it is because of the wording "at the end of the phase". If we make this assumption, then it must, by definition, follow a period in time when I could move and advance and fall back. If that isn't done during the phase I don't know what is.
Continue to throw around insults Tech. It isn't helping your case.
I see you still have no answer to this;
Spoiler:
Show me in the rulebook where it states that I cannot move after reinforcing.
You assume this because GW separates during (which includes movement and all the other things you've written before) and the end of the phase in the reinforcements rules.
If this assumption exists for movement it must exist for the stratagem as they operate in exactly the same phase of the game.
If I don't move my units during the movement phase, please tell me when I do move them? If the end of the phase is not distinct from during the phase please explain why I cannot move units after reinforcing?
Your argument falls down so hard here I'm amazed you're still making it. You'll note some stratagems operate specifically at the end of the phase too.
It doesn't matter that the end of the phase is also during the phase. GW have spelled out as clear as day that one follows the other. You've said it yourself - I must move and do all other actions that happen during the phase before I can play reinforcements that happen at the end of the phase. This isn't a termination point in the straw man argument you keep making - it is however the end of your ability to play and do things that happen during the phase. Some specific rules may break this as you have claimed, CoF which we are here to discuss specifically, does not.
I just showed you where in the rules it says you cannot move after reinforcing. Furthermore the reason that you cannot move after the reinforcing is because the rules state the following ;
Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit until you’ve moved all the models you want to. You can then pick another unit to move, until you have moved as many of your units as you wish
So the rules state you have to move at the start of your movement phase. It says nothing about during. Its not because the rules say reinforcing happens at the end of the phase that you cannot move further, but because the brb says you move at the start of your phase. I cannot state it more plainly than quoting the exact rules.
On the subject of "Show me where it says I can't do something during the end of the phase!"
If you are doing something after an "at end of phase" action, then the "at end of phase" action wasn't, which isn't allowed. Because it very specifically states that it must be performed at end of phase. Additionally, nothing about a "during" action must be done at the end, so it cannot trigger the "sequencing" rule.
Instead of "show me where it says I can't do X!", show me where it says you can "Oops, didn't mean to" and perform an action that isn't end of phase after an end of phase action has completed. As when every action with "at end of phase" is completed via the "sequencing" rules, the phase then ends.
And if you want to use cloud of flies simultaneously with reinforcements arriving to circumvent this, I'd like to see where another "during" strategem does this.
Zarroc1733 wrote: I just showed you where in the rules it says you cannot move after reinforcing.
No, you haven't. You've quoted the BRB that explains why the units that reinforce can't move after reinforcing.
Now can you show anything from the BRB or another source to explain why units that haven't yet moved and did not just arrive by reinforcements cannot move after reinforcements arrive?
Zarroc1733 wrote: I just showed you where in the rules it says you cannot move after reinforcing.
No, you haven't. You've quoted the BRB that explains why the units that reinforce can't move after reinforcing.
Now can you show anything from the BRB or another source to explain why units that haven't yet moved and did not just arrive by reinforcements cannot move after reinforcements arrive?
Because in this specific case the reinforcements have an "at the end of the movement phase", nothing about moving normal units states that they move at the end of the movement phase, so normal units cannot use the Sequencing rule on page 178 to move after "end of phase" reinforcements. Because you can't something after an "end of phase action" without using the sequencing rule on page 178.
Zarroc1733 wrote: I just showed you where in the rules it says you cannot move after reinforcing.
No, you haven't. You've quoted the BRB that explains why the units that reinforce can't move after reinforcing.
Now can you show anything from the BRB or another source to explain why units that haven't yet moved and did not just arrive by reinforcements cannot move after reinforcements arrive?
Because the rules say you must do all movement at the start of the phase.
Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit until you’ve moved all the models you want to. You can then pick another unit to move, until you have moved as many of your units as you wish
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PoorGravitasHandling wrote: On the subject of "Show me where it says I can't do something during the end of the phase!"
If you are doing something after an "at end of phase" action, then the "at end of phase" action wasn't, which isn't allowed. Because it very specifically states that it must be performed at end of phase. Additionally, nothing about a "during" action must be done at the end, so it cannot trigger the "sequencing" rule.
Instead of "show me where it says I can't do X!", show me where it says you can "Oops, didn't mean to" and perform an action that isn't end of phase after an end of phase action has completed. As when every action with "at end of phase" is completed via the "sequencing" rules, the phase then ends.
And if you want to use cloud of flies simultaneously with reinforcements arriving to circumvent this, I'd like to see where another "during" strategem does this.
Please cite where the BRB says that you cannot use a during stratagem at the end of the phase? If the end of the phase is during the phase then I see no issue. If the end of the phase is a separate sub phase (which maybe it is Idk) then you're correct. But I haven't seen a rule that states after reinforcements you immediately move to the next phase. As I've said many times I'm just asking for rule citations as people seem to be making baseless claims. As it stands I do not know which way is RAW but I'm definitely starting to lean in one direction.
Zarroc1733 wrote: Because the rules say you must do all movement at the start of the phase.
Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit until you’ve moved all the models you want to. You can then pick another unit to move, until you have moved as many of your units as you wish
No, the rules don't say that, you quoted them. I've put in bold the relevant part of the rule you quoted.
The rules you've quoted state how you start your movement phase and then how you progress during it.
Nothing in your interpretation of the rules stops me moving one unit (to start the movement phase), bring in reinforcements where I want them then move the rest of the units that were already on the board (it's still during, right?).
Zarroc1733 wrote: But I haven't seen a rule that states after reinforcements you immediately move to the next phase. As I've said many times I'm just asking for rule citations as people seem to be making baseless claims. As it stands I do not know which way is RAW but I'm definitely starting to lean in one direction.
The rules for reinforcements are detailed on the individual stratagem or unit that enables reinforcing. We've covered this a few pages back. Almost all of them without exception have the same thing at the start of their rule; "At the end of your movement phase...[do x]". There is your citation that reinforcements happen at the end of the phase.
Side note: 40k is a game that gives you permissions to do things. If you can't find a rule that lets you do X, then X is forbidden. The onus is on you to provide proof that the rules permit your interpretation. Otherwise I'm going to start asking why I can't move in the psychic phase, because nothing is telling me not to.
We only have permission to pick a unit to move until we have moved as many as we wish. Theres no mention of moving models during the phase.
All we can do is pick a unit, then move it ,then pick another then move it ,
This set of actions stops once we chose not to move anymore units.
Once this has happened we can never start that set of actions again and move any units, so logical this must when we play an at the end of the movement phase rule.
Now the squencing rules gives us permission to resovle the order the rules are worked out.
Now the only information we are left with is that those actions are now happening in an order, we have no information on how to do this.
So in theory you can chose this order for things to happen, drop a unit in , then use a during stratagem, then drop another unit in and then end the phase. (Which again we dont have any information on how this is done. Do we decalre it ? Or is it when i start the physic phase ?)
The counter argument about moving units during this dosnt quite fit because we have already finnished that set of actions and dont have permission to go back based on caveat above.
Just having a quick look we have stratagems with
At the start
At the beginning
During
At the end of
At the end of but before
we have no defination of what gw whats these to mean i honestly dont think that there is a clear raw here because of the way they are written , but alas there is a big faq due this month so hopfully we will have some answers
Again, I'm pretty sure that "during" strategems cannot be played alongside "End of" actions due to the "are to be resolved together" wording of Sequencing
Thats what triggers the rule , then we are told that the player choses what order to resovle them in. You could read that to mean they are now split and happening in a squence , or its still effectivly happening at the same time you just pick the order.
Sequencing only triggers on things that "are to happen" at the same time. As in, mandated to happen at the same time. Playing the strategem is something that could be done but isn't mandated. It cannot trigger a sequencing exception.
It would be more accurate to say they are to be worked out at the same time. Thats my understanding of the word resolved.
And we have permission to now work them out in the order we want. Now is that picking an action one at a time like the phases work, or is it pick the whole order straight away ?
Stratagem work as a trigger that the player uses to interupt the game, as long as its requirements are met.
Here is a question
i have 4 units to "deestrike" i also have the abilty to use a stratagem "at the end of the movement phase heal d3 wounds"
How do i work this out? Am i forced to use my stratagem just incase i am shot as i come in , and if im not shot i lose those command points. So i resovle the order they will happen all at once.
Or do i work out eacb one in an order i pick one at a time so if i get shot i can chose the next action to be my stratagem,or i can chose to only deploy 3 units , and we roll off so we again get the choose to react depending on what happens
I dont think the rules give us enough infomation to tell. It dosnt say we have to declare all the deepstrike units are coming in, we always have the choice to bring them in. I am not mandated to do anything.
squencing just lets us know that when things are to be resovled at the same time the player whose turn it is choose the order. Mybe thats so we can react to diffrent situtations, like a unit being destroyed as it arrives so we can still chose another unit to come in, that we mite have been holding back .
I think its just to vague to know for sure but i am more in favour of choice than being forced to work out what could be any number of actions that mite happen, and to avoid a situtation where i have declared i will use a stratagem only for that to be illegal because the unit is destroyed by the time i get to that action
Just treat it as a mini phase and it all works fine. All this half-declaring a Strat and resolving it later via beyond tenuous use of Sequencing is ridiculous to me. It does not appear to be what Sequencing is intended to handle.
techsoldaten wrote: Moving after reinforcements arrive is actually against the rules. The BRB specifically prohibits this.
Do you try to argue this way with people in real life?
Can you quote the rulebook and give a page number please?
Page 177, in the right column, under 'Reinforcements':
"Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive."
OK.
Now where does it say I can't move ANOTHER UNIT after reinforcing?
It doesn't need to. p. 177, under Reinforcements:
"Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases."
The Movement phase is spelled out on p. 177 as a series of actions: Moving, Minimum Move, Enemy Models, Falling Back, and Advancing. Once these actions are complete, that's when reinforcements arrive - it's the end of the Movement phase.
So additional movement is not possible, because it specifically happens before reinforcements arrive. The rules say that.
What the rules don't say is, once reinforcements arrive, the player is now in the Psychic phase. That rule, or something like it, would exclude Stratagems that must be used during the Movement phase from being applied.
But Stratagems say when Stratagems can be applied. And GW has consistently enforced the simplest interpretation in FAQs.
Unless there is some rule you can point to that says after reinforcements arrive the player is now immediately in the Psychic phase, then the player is still in the Movement phase. I have provided plenty of examples in this thread of other things happening during the Movement phase after reinforcements arrive.
So, point to a rule or cease this silliness.
What the rules do say thougjh, is "their entire Movement phase it used in deploying on the battlefield" (just arfter the part you are quoting). It hasn't arrived until it's used its entire movement phase and is finally deployed. If it's used the engire movement phase fo rthat, then it's used the entire movement phase during which time you would play the stratagem.
The complete sentence, with context, is:
"Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or advance further during the turn they arrive - their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield - but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) ."
Which means:
- the unit cannot move further during the turn they arrive
- the unit cannot advance further during the turn they arrive
- the unit can shoot the turn they arrive
- the unit can charge the turn they arrive
- the unit can etc the turn they arrive
- and NOTHING else
The part about "their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield" explains why they can't move further, and nothing else.
You are incorrect, as it affects things that you do to try to affect the unit. It takes it entire movement phase to arrive; it's not there for purposes of stratagems. It's not there for the "during the turn" part, so isn't there to play a stratagem on. You are trying to play a stratgem on a unit before it's there. By the time it's there for you to say you're playing a stratagem on it, unless you have a trigger like Auspex it's too late - you would already be sequencing if there's more than one thing to resolve end of turn. If you're already sequencing you don't get to try to add something to the sequence after you've started.
Zarroc1733 wrote: I just showed you where in the rules it says you cannot move after reinforcing.
No, you haven't. You've quoted the BRB that explains why the units that reinforce can't move after reinforcing.
Now can you show anything from the BRB or another source to explain why units that haven't yet moved and did not just arrive by reinforcements cannot move after reinforcements arrive?
Because the rules say you must do all movement at the start of the phase.
Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit until you’ve moved all the models you want to. You can then pick another unit to move, until you have moved as many of your units as you wish
I guess you don't realize that only the first unit moves at the start of the phase, and ones you select after that are after the start of the phase. It only states picking a first unit for movement. "Then" you move other units; "then" in this case is something taking place after the first move. If it's after the first move it's after the start of the phase. If they were all at the start of the phase, you would have to declare every unit that you're going to move, and your opponent would have to declare every single stratagem he's trying to play on them at that time too in order for all of those to be sequenced. As there's nothing in the book about having to declare all your movement and having the opponent declare all stratagems that he wants happening at the time they're all moving, then obviously not all units move at the start of the phase.
Once the sequence has started do you declare it all at once or is it one after the other ? Otherwise you can run into problems with some stratagem as described above
Unless there's a specific trigger (Auspex) I think you'd have to declare at once so that you have everything there that would need to be included in the sequencing. I don't see getting halfway though the items you're sequencing and then having someone go "wait a minute, I'm adding this").
When you're adding stratagems I would say you have to declare stratagems on units that are already there, not units that will be appearing after you declare - how can you declare you're affecting something that hasn't shown up yet?
Trouble is that means you could be in a situation where you have declared a stratagem, heal d3 wounds on a hq and that model not being there by the time you get there in the sequencing whislt rare it is a possibilty. Ie forwarned kills unit that causes mw to nearby hq
Playing it as an order you chose pick one at a time does eliminate that possibilty.
It will be intressing to see how gw decides to rule on it
To me, "End" is clearly a loose 'end', as "in a rattlesnake has a rattle at the end of its tail" or "those two get together at the end of the series" as opposed to an abrupt final point, because too many other actions can occur after actions that only occur at the "end of the phase". The movement phase ends when the psychic phase starts, in the same way a football match ends when the final whistle is blown - but what happened in the middle, towards the end, and at the end of the game is a more nebulous concept that could stretch from the final few seconds to the last ten minutes or even maybe the last quarter.
The pyschic phase starts when you nominate a psyker, so until you do that we're in a movement phase that isn't over yet.
After reinforcements have arrived, and resultant actions that come after those have been completed - it's still the movement phase.
You can end a speech by tying things back to the initial premise you set out at the beginning, and then still summarise your points and come to a conclusion at the end. And then acknowledge others who contributed. Then people clap. Once that's all done you might open the floor to questions. After that's all done, you all head out for drinks at the networking event that was planned for after the talks.
Unless you've activated a psychic power, it's not the end of the movement phase. You can't move other units after bringing in reinforcements, because movement of units on the board is a series of events that is triggered by the start of the phase. If you stop doing that, there isn't anything there to suggest that you can re-trigger it, you can perform stratagems and activate abilities to that occur whilst you're moving a unit, but once that is all done - it's done. You need another movement phase to restart the process (baring some special rule - such as disembarking from a reinforcing vehicle).
At this point, there is nothing else you can do other than trigger abilities that happen at the end of the phase - other than any during the phase abilities (I'm sure no one would argue that you can't use CoF without having another unit to move). So you can now trigger end of phase activities.
But it's still the movement phase, because you've not started the psychic phase. Even if the end of the movement phase was a separate subphase, you'd be able to use actions that could take place during the movement phase.
The wording for most deepstrike is "at the end of your movement phase" rather than "you may end your movement phase". It's after a bunch of stuff, but before a bunch of other different stuff, rather than the action that causes the transition. Whilst that first selection of a model to move uses language similar to the latter case - "start your movement phase by..."
At the end of your movement phase - is a noun covering a period of time
end your movement phase - a verb describing an action
at the beginning/start of your movement phase - noun covering a period of time
start your movement phase - verb describing an action.
Tastyfish wrote: To me, "End" is clearly a loose 'end', as "in a rattlesnake has a rattle at the end of its tail" or "those two get together at the end of the series" as opposed to an abrupt final point, because too many other actions can occur after actions that only occur at the "end of the phase". The movement phase ends when the psychic phase starts, in the same way a football match ends when the final whistle is blown - but what happened in the middle, towards the end, and at the end of the game is a more nebulous concept that could stretch from the final few seconds to the last ten minutes or even maybe the last quarter.
The pyschic phase starts when you nominate a psyker, so until you do that we're in a movement phase that isn't over yet.
After reinforcements have arrived, and resultant actions that come after those have been completed - it's still the movement phase.
You can end a speech by tying things back to the initial premise you set out at the beginning, and then still summarise your points and come to a conclusion at the end. And then acknowledge others who contributed. Then people clap. Once that's all done you might open the floor to questions. After that's all done, you all head out for drinks at the networking event that was planned for after the talks.
Unless you've activated a psychic power, it's not the end of the movement phase. You can't move other units after bringing in reinforcements, because movement of units on the board is a series of events that is triggered by the start of the phase. If you stop doing that, there isn't anything there to suggest that you can re-trigger it, you can perform stratagems and activate abilities to that occur whilst you're moving a unit, but once that is all done - it's done. You need another movement phase to restart the process (baring some special rule - such as disembarking from a reinforcing vehicle).
At this point, there is nothing else you can do other than trigger abilities that happen at the end of the phase - other than any during the phase abilities (I'm sure no one would argue that you can't use CoF without having another unit to move). So you can now trigger end of phase activities.
But it's still the movement phase, because you've not started the psychic phase. Even if the end of the movement phase was a separate subphase, you'd be able to use actions that could take place during the movement phase.
The wording for most deepstrike is "at the end of your movement phase" rather than "you may end your movement phase". It's after a bunch of stuff, but before a bunch of other different stuff, rather than the action that causes the transition.
But still at the end of could just as easily mean after the movement phase , ive posted a link to an english leasson on this.
Also if like you say its not the next thing until you start the next part then i refer you to the examples of "At the end of " which means the rules do not consider it part of , ie seqencing rules and stratagem limit
Its needs an faq there is no single way that cannot be argued either way
ian wrote: But still at the end of could just as easily mean after the movement phase , ive posted a link to an english leasson on this.
Also if like you say its not the next thing until you start the next part then i refer you to the examples of "At the end of " which means the rules do not consider it part of , ie seqencing rules and stratagem limit
Its needs an faq there is no single way that cannot be argued either way
I disagree here, though I think an FAQ could be useful - you could point to two different uses of end, but the fact that end could mean some akin to "after" doesn't stop it referring to the looser "end" as in the latter part of something.
However the looser definition includes the finite end as a time point, and that usage doesn't work with a whole bunch of other rules. End can mean both the latter part and the point where it stops (that being part of the end) - so assuming a power can only be used at the end, it'd be true to say that you can use it either towards the end of the phase or at the ultimate end. Declaring a deepstrike could be the last thing you do, but also as the rules state in several clear instances, it might not be.
It's definitely happening at the end, might be the last thing you do, but doesn't have to be.
"At the end of 'X'" is not a natural way of phrasing something that is a discrete boundary. That would be "when this 'ends'" or "'end this by" - the verb version of end, not the noun.
We ate at the dinner table. but We ate in the dining room.
At in all these examples refers to a specific time or location; in refers to being inside a general area. At the end is used to point to the end as a specific point in time, whilst in the end is used, more idiomatically, to talk about a general “end” zone: the summary or conclusion.
There is also a diagram on the website in relation to a film
It can be viewed either way .
But if your view is that the next phase or turn ends by the next one step happening
ie the movement phase ends by the physic phase happening
Then a players turn must end by the next one starting
Then the battle round ends by the first player starting there turn
Its like a loop with things interupting
We can look at the sequencing rules we see that "at the end of the battle round" is not a players turn so that must mean when they use that phrase it is not considered to be in what it is refering too.
That is a rough summary , but i dont think it can be called one way without problems with rules intractions at some level,
I'm missing something here, your attached image shows that "the end" is a nebulous concept that depends on what is ending and that over the course of one sentence multiple things will end. The direct translation here would be "he deepstruck his troops at the end of his movement phase then triggered a stratagem, we debated it and in the end decided it was complicated".
"at" here is referring to nested sets is it not? You can eat in the dining room and at the table, but not that the table without being in the dining room - is this not the same as activating an ability at the end of the phase, whilst also being able to activate 'dining room' level powers?
Similarly, just because one system exists within a sequence (the phases within a player turn) doesn't mean the same rules apply after the sequence is complete. Psychic phase following movement phase is not the same as Player B's turn following Player A if we've got specific cases of things operating in the gaps there. It's a case of specific over general.
Far as rules issues, aside from CoF on deepstriking units, it seems that counting a each phase of a player's turn as lasting until the next phase causes less issues than inserting non-phase instances between each one.
A point during the end
The point directly after the end
This means that the rule can be read diffrent ways and hence there can be no clear ruling
You are only ever given permission to pick a unit so the only way you can move from one point to another in the game is to pick a unit , so the only way to move from one players turn to the next is by picking a unit to move.
If we are using the logic that a phase ends by the next one begining we have to apply that across the board. (Think of the battle round as a counter rather than a step we have to perform)
So looking at the examples would be a valid way to dechiper the meaning of "at the end of"
But this is a whole debate that can go around and around depending on interpretations.
I think that the game has been design to work as a loop with triggers that force it to be a point in time and only actions with those time stamps can be used. I beleave this causes the least rules issue.
Q: If I set up a unit on the battlefield as reinforcements at the
end of my Movement phase, can I then use any Stratagems that
are used ‘during your Movement phase’?
A: No, unless the Stratagem specifically says otherwise.
Gonna pop my head up and say this one was FAR less certain than, say, “do auto-hit weapons roll?” but it’s awesome there’s a simple, hard rule now. Fewer arguments makes for better games and a better YMDC (discussing and arguing aren’t the same). Great to have so many solid bursts of clarity from GW in one go.
