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Thats my point the movement phase is over, so you cant use the stratagem thats happens during it
There has to be a point where the end is defined

Its declared to be the end or you start the next phase

ian wrote:
Thats my point the movement phase is over, so you cant use the stratagem thats happens during it
There has to be a point where the end is defined

Its declared to be the end or you start the next phase

Okay, sorry, I didn't get that from your post right after mine there, it sounded like you were arguing the opposite. I agree that the movement phase is over. the wording about it taking the entire movement phase to get to the point where you deploy reinforces that - a stratagem can't be used on them because they are still trying to deploy during the phase at any point you would use the stratagem.

The end of phase is where all the stuff designated as end of that phase happens, you don't get to add stuff that would happen during the phase or, as was pointed out, you could just declare that you're moving some unit at the end of the phase and move them after reinforcements arrive, making a mockery of the concept of the end of the phase.

The phrases 'at the end of the phase' and 'during XX phase' is being used almost as a proper noun, and not as an English comprehension test.

The rulesets are permissive. You don't have permission to include things that happen "at the end of the phase" as being inclusive within "during a phase."

The rules were written so as to specifically differentiate "during" from "at the end".

If 'during-phase' stratagems were supposed to work on reinforcements that arrive at the end of movement phase, then the deep strike blurb may as well just be written 'during the movement phase... units arriving in this manner cannot move during this turn.'

A square is a rectangle a rectangle is not always a square

At the end of is during the phase

During does not always equal at the end of the phase

It is during the movement phase until such time as it is the start of the next phase

U02dah4 wrote:
A square is a rectangle a rectangle is not always a square

At the end of is during the phase

During does not always equal at the end of the phase

It is during the movement phase until such time as it is the start of the next phase

So do you let your opponent move all his units that started the movement phase on the board after bringing in units from reinforcements that turn? With your definition, it's still during the movement phase. If it applies to stratagems, it would apply to other things during the phase like other units moving.

Doctortom noworrys i could have worded my post better

U02dah4 wrote:
A square is a rectangle a rectangle is not always a square

At the end of is during the phase

During does not always equal at the end of the phase

It is during the movement phase until such time as it is the start of the next phase

Well, if you're told to draw inside a square, you're not allowed to draw over or on the lines of the square, or outside of it. The lines however are still part of the square. Now someone hands you a special pencil and tells you that you're only allowed to draw on the lines of the rectangle with it.

This is like that time when people were discussing whether not moving at all was considered moving less than half movement for the sake of Leman Russes.

Reinforcing must be the last thing done in the movement phase. End of. If you do a stratagem after that it is no longer the last thing and you have broken the rules.

ian wrote:
Not the psychic phase but the time inbetween just like the forward operatives stratagem which happens at the begining of the first battle round but before the first turn . It happens inbetween the deployment and the movement phase they have chosesn to mark a point in the game without giving it a simple name ie " infiltrate phase " or somthing like that

If it was worded like this

At the end of the movement phase but before the physic phase


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It would be more clear cut ,

I guess i am just trying to find at what point do the rules say a phase has ended


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if i declare that its the end of my movement phase does that mean its now the physic phase,

1. There is no time between phases. The rules do not support some imaginary period between the end of one phase and the start of another.

2. 'The end of.." is not synonymous with 'after'. If I live at the end of First Street, my house is not on Second Street. If a quarterback throws a Hail Mary pass at the end of the game, then the game was still going on. It was not after the game.

Ok then a question when is the end of the phase?


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Its because i need to know when its the end of the phase so i can do my action

Its not the same as describing a past event or the same as a location its a point in time


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When is the end of a football match ?
When is it the end of the street?

When you ask these questions your forced to be specific you cant say the end of a football match is the last 10 mins because somebody else mite say its the last 15 mins




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I have thought of a better way to explain it what we are talking about is a sequence and the action here is speaking

At the end of counting to 5 you can start to count from 7

You dont start saying 7 until you have finnished saying 5 you cant perform the next action until the first on is done.

Movement phase you pick a unit to move until you have moved as many as you wish i am going to move 5 units once that last unit is moved the phase is over

ian wrote:
Ok then a question when is the end of the phase?


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Its because i need to know when its the end of the phase so i can do my action

Its not the same as describing a past event or the same as a location its a point in time


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When is the end of a football match ?
When is it the end of the street?

When you ask these questions your forced to be specific you cant say the end of a football match is the last 10 mins because somebody else mite say its the last 15 mins




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I have thought of a better way to explain it what we are talking about is a sequence and the action here is speaking

At the end of counting to 5 you can start to count from 7

You dont start saying 7 until you have finnished saying 5 you cant perform the next action until the first on is done.

Movement phase you pick a unit to move until you have moved as many as you wish i am going to move 5 units once that last unit is moved the phase is over

The end of the movement phase is reached when the acting player declares that it is the end of the phase. He then no longer is able to do stuff that's to happen during the phase.

Yes, GW should just release a phase flow model including all these 'events', but it's not that hard to figure it out without it.

If you can play this stratagem after reinforcing you can also (following the same logic) move after reinforcing.

Since we know the above to be false how is this discussion still ongoing?

If something must be done last in a phase and you so something after it in the same phase you have broken the rules.

I complety agree it cannot happen

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
If you can play this stratagem after reinforcing you can also (following the same logic) move after reinforcing.

Moving is explicitly the first thing you do in the Movement phase, hence you clearly cannot make a normal move or Advance after setting up arriving reinforcements.

Fall Back however isn't explicitly time-specific however, and I don't think anyone would accept you could Fall Back after an arriving reinforcements unit has been set up, as this would have the effect of tying an enemy unit up to avoid Auspex Scan or similar before allowing them to be shot and/or charged by the arriving unit. I can't imagine that sitting as acceptable with anyone.

I think the crux of this is whether "during the phase" is carte blanche for the player on timing versus "at the beginning of" and/or "at the end of".

Suggesting "at the end of" is not part of and is some kind of weird between time after the Movement phase is a red herring because we just have to look at its opposite, "at the beginning of" to know of course it is part of the phase.

I've emailed the rules/FAQ team and fingers crossed it makes it into the March update, because I think it's worth an answer.

ian wrote:
Everybody who is saying that it is still during the phase

when does the end of the phase begin ? And how do you decided that ?

Beginning of phase - Explicitly before doing other standard things within the phase essentially jump to front of the queue. So in movement phase prior to moving models normally. If you've moved models normally youve missed the window

End of phase - Explicitly after doing other standard things within the phase essentially jump to the back of the queue. So in movement phase if you have resolved something end of phase you can't go back and move something normally (it ends at the start of the next phase.

During the phase- at any point during the phase. Begining of phase is in phase -end of phase is in phase. The only requirement is that you have not moved to a different phase.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Moving is explicitly the first thing you do in the Movement phase, hence you clearly cannot make a normal move or Advance after setting up arriving reinforcements.

It's not that moving is explicitly the first thing you do in the Movement phase, movement also happens during the phase. It's that reinforcing is explicitly the last thing you do in the movement phase and so you can't use a stratagem after it, unless the stratagem in question must also be used "at the end of the movement phase".

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Moving is explicitly the first thing you do in the Movement phase, hence you clearly cannot make a normal move or Advance after setting up arriving reinforcements.

It's not that moving is explicitly the first thing you do in the Movement phase, movement also happens during the phase. It's that reinforcing is explicitly the last thing you do in the movement phase and so you can't use a stratagem after it, unless the stratagem in question must also be used "at the end of the movement phase".

This is clearly correct .

I dont think it is a red herring i think its the same thing as the forward operatives stratagems, here is somthing to think about

I have just finnished moving all my units
i now say its the end of the movement phase
So i can now bring in my reinenforments
I now say its the end of the movement phase

The same thing is happening twice just wondering how that fits

I agree that you could say its the start of the physic phase as a way to define the end of the movement phase but doing that would stop you using end of actions because its the physic phase
One last thing to add

What happens if i do not move any models when is the start when is the end and when is during.

If reenforments is the only thing i do it is the start of the phase and the end of the phase at the same time
Just throwing some ideas out as im still on the fence as to how to define it

When do actions occur at the same time you sequence them according to the sequencing rules. You dont have two different end of phases you have one end of phase with two different actions being resolved.

Also the second time in your example you say its now the end of movement phase you dont need to say it. It has been the end of movement phase since the first time you said it

In MtG there are phases such as your upkeep and your main phase.

The main phase is more or less broken into "at the start", "during" and "the end". Things trigger appropriately but for the most part you can do anything at any given point regardless of order.

So if you apply the same logic the "Deep strike" phase at the end is still within the phase itself. If it were truly at the end you'd never be able to place any reinforcements

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
If you can play this stratagem after reinforcing you can also (following the same logic) move after reinforcing.

Moving is explicitly the first thing you do in the Movement phase, hence you clearly cannot make a normal move or Advance after setting up arriving reinforcements.

Technically, moving your first unit (only) is the first thing you do in the Movement phase. Any movement after that is during the movement phase. This means that if for people treating the end of phase as "during the phase" and allowing you to declare anything else during the phase at the end of the phase, then I could declare that I move all my units except the first unit I move as happening at the end of the phase, along with declaring all stratagems I play occur at the end of the phase. I could then declare that it's the end of the phase, and because of sequencing I could bring in my reinforcements before moving any of my other units or playing any stratagems. If it's allowable to try to do that with stratagems, it's allowable to do that with movement of units after the first.

 doctortom wrote:
Technically, moving your first unit (only) is the first thing you do in the Movement phase. Any movement after that is during the movement phase. This means that if for people treating the end of phase as "during the phase" and allowing you to declare anything else during the phase at the end of the phase, then I could declare that I move all my units except the first unit I move as happening at the end of the phase, along with declaring all stratagems I play occur at the end of the phase. I could then declare that it's the end of the phase, and because of sequencing I could bring in my reinforcements before moving any of my other units or playing any stratagems. If it's allowable to try to do that with stratagems, it's allowable to do that with movement of units after the first.

I like the way you think.

But sont you have to pick a unit then move it

ian wrote:
But sont you have to pick a unit then move it

You explicitly start your Movement phase by picking a unit and moving it. Then (meaning next, after that explicitly "start of phase" action) you may pick and move another unit, and so on. Necessarily second and subsequent unit movement must be part of "during the phase".

 fraser1191 wrote:
In MtG there are phases such as your upkeep and your main phase.

The main phase is more or less broken into "at the start", "during" and "the end". Things trigger appropriately but for the most part you can do anything at any given point regardless of order.

So if you apply the same logic the "Deep strike" phase at the end is still within the phase itself. If it were truly at the end you'd never be able to place any reinforcements

The thing is (as a judge) mtg is clear the phase is broken into clearly defined steps. 40k has no clear definition and while you are interpreting during to mean middle. Strictly it means at any point in the phase begining middle or end


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 Mr. Shine wrote:

ian wrote:
But sont you have to pick a unit then move it

You explicitly start your Movement phase by picking a unit and moving it. Then (meaning next, after that explicitly "start of phase" action) you may pick and move another unit, and so on. Necessarily second and subsequent unit movement must be part of "during the phase".

Not necessarily. You start your movement phase with any abilities that specify at the start of the movement phase. If you move a unit you are no longer at the start you are in the middle.

I'll just leave this here:

"During" - Throughout the course or duration of (a period of time); [Oxford]

"Throughout" - In every part of; From beginning to end of; [Oxford]

U02dah4 wrote:
Not necessarily. You start your movement phase with any abilities that specify at the start of the movement phase. If you move a unit you are no longer at the start you are in the middle.

Check the movement rules. Moving your first unit is explicitly done to start your Movement phase, so you could move your first unit and still be at the beginning of the phase for Sequencing other such rules. Second or subsequent though, indeed, as doctortom showed, you would no longer be at the start or beginning of the phase.

Okay, on-topic but a derail slightly:

What about stratagems that are in effect during a phase, are they still active for At the end of the phase stratagems?

namely: Veterans of the Long War, adding +1 to wound during a shooting/fight phase, and Endless Cacophony, allowing a unit to shoot again at the End of the Shooting phase.

Veterans of the Long War is when a unit is selected to shoot or fight in a phase. Perhaps this is the difference between "in a phase" and "during/at the beginning/end of a phase"?

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Veterans of the Long War is when a unit is selected to shoot or fight in a phase. Perhaps this is the difference between "in a phase" and "during/at the beginning/end of a phase"?

The only difference between “in a phase” or “during a phase” is stylistic. The meaning of both phrases is identical.