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2018/03/02 13:13:47
Subject: "During" versus "at the end of" the phase
techsoldaten wrote: People here are arguing that the arrival of reinforcements is a terminal point for the movement phase, despite the fact other things happen after that. Like disembarking from transports that arrived as reinforcements, or Eldar Skyfire.
That interpretation is nonsense and they cannot cite a single rule to support their argument.
Incredible. 9 pages of discussion and you still miss the same argument that has been there since literally page one.
Ill try, for the umpteenth time, to make it abundantly clear what the argument is against CoF being played on a reinforcement unit. (Hint - it's not that nothing else can happen after reinforcements have been played.)
I wish you wouldn't. There's already 9 pages of wrong, adding to it just makes us all seem a little dumber.
Cite a rule from the BRB or stop with this silliness trying to distinguish between During the Phase and End of the Phase. The BRB spells out the turn sequence clearly, there is nothing that says the phase is over once reinforcements arrive.
If something can happen after reinforcements arrive, like disembarkation - which does have rules for how and when it happens - there is no logical reason Stratagems would be prohibited.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/02 14:03:00
techsoldaten wrote: People here are arguing that the arrival of reinforcements is a terminal point for the movement phase, despite the fact other things happen after that. Like disembarking from transports that arrived as reinforcements, or Eldar Skyfire.
That interpretation is nonsense and they cannot cite a single rule to support their argument.
Incredible. 9 pages of discussion and you still miss the same argument that has been there since literally page one.
Ill try, for the umpteenth time, to make it abundantly clear what the argument is against CoF being played on a reinforcement unit. (Hint - it's not that nothing else can happen after reinforcements have been played.)
According to the rules "DURING" the movement phase and "AT THE END OF" the movement phase are two distinct periods of time. Something that happens in one cannot happen in the other. I move during the phase so I cannot move at the end of the phase. I reinforce at the end of the phase so I cannot reinforce during the phase.
Cloud of flies clearly states it happens "during" the movement phase. This is one of the criteria that determine whether it can be played legally. If you are reinforcing you have without question moved on to the "end of the phase" as we all know reinforcements happen during this time. Stratagems and special rules that specifically state they also happen at the end of the movement phase can now occur. Stratagems and special rules that happen in response to something happening in the end of the phase can now occur. Neither of these is true for CoF.
Now from what I can tell your entire argument seems to rest on the misguided and frankly bizarre belief that for some unknown, magical reason "stratagems don't follow the same rules as everything else in terms of their requirements for play". Despite having zero evidence to back this up. Despite an abundance of evidence to support the exact opposite of this interpretation.
Like we have said time and time again, if you believe that you can play CoF after reinforcing then I can move my models after reinforcing. They have exactly the same requirements for their activation that being they must happen "during" the movement phase.
Secondly you appear to be working on the assumption that you must declare a target for CoF as soon as you declare that you are going to use it. I put forwards that you only need to declare a target once you start resolving the Stratagem. As of such if there are simultaneous actions you don't declare the target until you start to resolve CoF - if you disagree please demonstrate where the rules specify that you must declare a target for a stratagem before you resolve the rules within the stratagem.
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't cloud of flies literally say "Pick a unit with the Death Guard keyword"? That's the first thing you do. Otherwise you could wait until your enemy starts their shooting phase, picks a unit then decide that the unit getting shot has CoF. Which is clearly bogus.
Your argument hinges pretty heavily on the parts of the movement phase being clearly listed out. Can you please tell me where to find this in the rulebook? Page numbers would help a lot here. As far as I can tell there is no listed difference between parts of the movement phase.
2018/03/02 14:50:04
Subject: "During" versus "at the end of" the phase
According to the rules "DURING" the movement phase and "AT THE END OF" the movement phase are two distinct periods of time. Something that happens in one cannot happen in the other. I move during the phase so I cannot move at the end of the phase. I reinforce at the end of the phase so I cannot reinforce during the phase.
BRB citation please. Where in the rules does it state that the end is distinct from during. If something happens at the end of a book is it not during the events of the book? How about a movie? End has more than a singular meaning. Where in the rules is it specified that your version of end is correct since you claim that it's there?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
An Actual Englishman wrote: Like we have said time and time again, if you believe that you can play CoF after reinforcing then I can move my models after reinforcing. They have exactly the same requirements for their activation that being they must happen "during" the movement phase.
Also false, the reason you cannot move after coming in from reserves is because the rules specifically say you cannot according to the BRBpg. 177. I have cited my rules, please cite yours.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/02 14:55:26
There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court. A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty. - Lord Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov
In an Imperium of a million worlds, what is the death of one world in the cause of purity?~Inquisition credo
He who allows the alien to live, shares its crime of existence. ~Inquisitor Apollyon
2018/03/02 20:50:29
Subject: "During" versus "at the end of" the phase
You just quoted the movement phase page mate. What in there lets you know you're not allowed to move after reinforcements?
edit: I might cut you off at the knees with the sentence that says something like "move each unit until you're done moving". You might say, this means you have to move everything before you do anything else, hence ending your movement. But there will be countless examples of where you're allowed to interweave actions during movement, what's to say "reinforcements" isn't just one of those actions? Who cares if it's labelled "at the end".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/02 20:52:38
2018/03/02 20:52:39
Subject: "During" versus "at the end of" the phase
hollow one wrote: You just quoted the movement phase page mate. What in there lets you know you're not allowed to move after reinforcements?
"Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive" That right there states your reinforcements cannot move after setting up.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/02 20:52:52
There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court. A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty. - Lord Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov
In an Imperium of a million worlds, what is the death of one world in the cause of purity?~Inquisition credo
He who allows the alien to live, shares its crime of existence. ~Inquisitor Apollyon
2018/03/02 21:02:14
Subject: "During" versus "at the end of" the phase
hollow one wrote: You just quoted the movement phase page mate. What in there lets you know you're not allowed to move after reinforcements?
I think he was addressing the argument of reinforcements being able to move. As of such:
Reinforcements wrote:Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive
To be honest, this is the least productive part of the discussion - there is insufficient evidence either way to say if 'at the end of the movement phase' is also 'during the movement phase'. Only GW can answer this.
Regardless of your understanding though there are implications throughout the rule set:
If 'at the end of the movement phase' is 'during the movement phase' then playing Cloud of Flies on reinforcements is OK
If 'at the end of the movement phase' is NOT 'during the movement phase' you lose the restrictions presented in Strategic Discipline - thus allowing you to play the same Stratagem multiple times 'at the end of the movement phase' in matched play.
I'm sure there are other implications that I haven't yet considered.
2018/03/02 21:10:32
Subject: "During" versus "at the end of" the phase
JakeSiren wrote: Regardless of your understanding though there are implications throughout the rule set:
If 'at the end of the movement phase' is 'during the movement phase' then playing Cloud of Flies on reinforcements is OK
If 'at the end of the movement phase' is NOT 'during the movement phase' you lose the restrictions presented in Strategic Discipline - thus allowing you to play the same Stratagem multiple times 'at the end of the movement phase' in matched play.
This is the entire debate really. I'm not actually on either side of the argument, but people keep stating that the rules say the end of the movement phase is not during the movement phase, and I'd like a rules citation on that, otherwise it is completely ambiguous and there is no correct answer until we get an faq.
There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court. A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty. - Lord Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov
In an Imperium of a million worlds, what is the death of one world in the cause of purity?~Inquisition credo
He who allows the alien to live, shares its crime of existence. ~Inquisitor Apollyon
2018/03/02 21:13:50
Subject: "During" versus "at the end of" the phase
I would like to distinguish between the freedom to act (unrestricted), and responding to something (conditional).
Sometimes you can only do act in response to a trigger, Auspex Scan only works when its conditions are met, and must occur at the time they are met. This is a conditional action.
Other times you can act freely, Cloud of Flies allows you to choose when to act within the movement phase. This is an unrestricted action (I'm making up these words).
I think if there are conditional effects occurring during the "end of phase" then we are not breaking the "end of phase"-being-a-distinct-area idea, because conditional effects only check if their conditions are met, they do not check the game state. Unrestricted effects must consider the game state before acting, Cloud of Flies has to ask the question "what phase are we in?" before it occurs, Auspex Scan only asks "did they drop in near me?". I would argue that unrestricted actions can not occur after reinforcements, as when you complete reinforcements and ask the question "what phase are we in?" you'll realize you've ended the movement phase and are in the psychic phase. I would argue that if you bring up a conditional example that can occur after reinforcements, then you are bringing up something that is intended to work outside of the game state, and only work if its conditions are met.
So exploring conditional examples (like Auspex Scan, or Kharbydis Assault Klaw causing immediate disembarking) as exceptions that deny the idea of the "end of phase" being distinct, I think, isn't valid. And I feel that is why people are discussing movement, because that is an unrestricted action that should be allowed to occur after reinforcements if you also argue that Cloud of Flies (unrestricted) to occur after reinforcements.
I'm sure there are examples of things that require both "like during X phase, when Y dies, do Z". So don't bother with that line.
hollow one wrote: You just quoted the movement phase page mate. What in there lets you know you're not allowed to move after reinforcements?
"Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive" That right there states your reinforcements cannot move after setting up.
Bro we are talking about moving other units after you reinforce. For example, deep strike X unit, then move Y unit (which hasn't moved yet).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JakeSiren wrote: Regardless of your understanding though there are implications throughout the rule set:
If 'at the end of the movement phase' is 'during the movement phase' then playing Cloud of Flies on reinforcements is OK
If 'at the end of the movement phase' is NOT 'during the movement phase' you lose the restrictions presented in Strategic Discipline - thus allowing you to play the same Stratagem multiple times 'at the end of the movement phase' in matched play.
I'm sure there are other implications that I haven't yet considered.
Your version of implications allows me to move Y unit after I deep strike X unit. Because I'm still technically in the movement phase.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/02 21:16:05
2018/03/02 21:23:52
Subject: "During" versus "at the end of" the phase
techsoldaten wrote: I wish you wouldn't. There's already 9 pages of wrong, adding to it just makes us all seem a little dumber.
Cite a rule from the BRB or stop with this silliness trying to distinguish between During the Phase and End of the Phase. The BRB spells out the turn sequence clearly, there is nothing that says the phase is over once reinforcements arrive.
If something can happen after reinforcements arrive, like disembarkation - which does have rules for how and when it happens - there is no logical reason Stratagems would be prohibited.
OK then, I'll just get on to moving my other units after reinforcing.
Can't wait for the FAQ on this.
DominayTrix wrote: Your argument hinges pretty heavily on the parts of the movement phase being clearly listed out. Can you please tell me where to find this in the rulebook? Page numbers would help a lot here. As far as I can tell there is no listed difference between parts of the movement phase.
Reinforcements must be done "at the end of the phase", after all units have been moved. I can't be bothered to cite the rulebook, there is no uncertainty in my mind on the rules.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/02 21:26:35
2018/03/02 21:25:51
Subject: "During" versus "at the end of" the phase
JakeSiren wrote: Regardless of your understanding though there are implications throughout the rule set:
If 'at the end of the movement phase' is 'during the movement phase' then playing Cloud of Flies on reinforcements is OK
If 'at the end of the movement phase' is NOT 'during the movement phase' you lose the restrictions presented in Strategic Discipline - thus allowing you to play the same Stratagem multiple times 'at the end of the movement phase' in matched play.
I'm sure there are other implications that I haven't yet considered.
Your version of implications allows me to move Y unit after I deep strike X unit. Because I'm still technically in the movement phase.
That's actually a matter of deciding when the "end of the phase" begins. I have previously stated that my personal reading is that it occurs once you have completed the main actions of the phase. So for the movement phase, resolving all actions contained under the movement header in the BRB. But that is also not strongly supported by the rules, it's just the one that breaks the least stuff IMO.
Regardless of what either of us think, there are implications in the rules if you consider it one way or the other and apply it consistently.
2018/03/02 21:29:28
Subject: "During" versus "at the end of" the phase
Zarroc1733 wrote: BRB citation please. Where in the rules does it state that the end is distinct from during. If something happens at the end of a book is it not during the events of the book? How about a movie? End has more than a singular meaning. Where in the rules is it specified that your version of end is correct since you claim that it's there?
Also false, the reason you cannot move after coming in from reserves is because the rules specifically say you cannot according to the BRBpg. 177. I have cited my rules, please cite yours.
"Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive" That right there states your reinforcements cannot move after setting up.
The rules you have cited are useless for this discussion and add absolutely nothing to it.
JakeSiren wrote: Regardless of your understanding though there are implications throughout the rule set: If 'at the end of the movement phase' is 'during the movement phase' then playing Cloud of Flies on reinforcements is OK If 'at the end of the movement phase' is NOT 'during the movement phase' you lose the restrictions presented in Strategic Discipline - thus allowing you to play the same Stratagem multiple times 'at the end of the movement phase' in matched play.
This is the entire debate really. I'm not actually on either side of the argument, but people keep stating that the rules say the end of the movement phase is not during the movement phase, and I'd like a rules citation on that, otherwise it is completely ambiguous and there is no correct answer until we get an faq.
No, this isn't the only argument and this is not the entire debate. Please see any of my previous posts for another interpretation (that has yet to be directly countered).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/02 21:32:23
2018/03/02 21:32:25
Subject: "During" versus "at the end of" the phase
What will Englishman do this time? How will he prevail?!
Find out on.... YOU MADE DA CALL... LINGUISTIC TENNIS EDITION
Lol I'm too tired for this.
Someone else needs to take the baton. There's only so long I can play this game.
I've responded with my thoughts. People either ignore them and discuss something else entirely, discuss dictionary definitions or ask for a page reference and rule quotation despite providing no evidence from the rulebook of their own.
It's tiring and boring. Avenge meeeee
2018/03/02 21:44:14
Subject: "During" versus "at the end of" the phase
JakeSiren wrote: Regardless of your understanding though there are implications throughout the rule set:
If 'at the end of the movement phase' is 'during the movement phase' then playing Cloud of Flies on reinforcements is OK
If 'at the end of the movement phase' is NOT 'during the movement phase' you lose the restrictions presented in Strategic Discipline - thus allowing you to play the same Stratagem multiple times 'at the end of the movement phase' in matched play.
This is the entire debate really. I'm not actually on either side of the argument, but people keep stating that the rules say the end of the movement phase is not during the movement phase, and I'd like a rules citation on that, otherwise it is completely ambiguous and there is no correct answer until we get an faq.
No, this isn't the only argument and this is not the entire debate. Please see any of my previous posts for another interpretation (that has yet to be directly countered).
Ah, you mean your interpretation where you fail to consistently apply the definition of during and at the end for different rules? I assumed that's why you never bothered responding to my question, it demonstrated your inconsistency. Reposted below if you want to answer now.
Simple question, under your definition of 'During' and 'End of phase', do the restrictions listed within the 'Strategic Discipline' rule in matched play apply in the 'End of phase'?
2018/03/02 21:45:05
Subject: "During" versus "at the end of" the phase
techsoldaten wrote: I wish you wouldn't. There's already 9 pages of wrong, adding to it just makes us all seem a little dumber.
Cite a rule from the BRB or stop with this silliness trying to distinguish between During the Phase and End of the Phase. The BRB spells out the turn sequence clearly, there is nothing that says the phase is over once reinforcements arrive.
If something can happen after reinforcements arrive, like disembarkation - which does have rules for how and when it happens - there is no logical reason Stratagems would be prohibited.
OK then, I'll just get on to moving my other units after reinforcing.
Can't wait for the FAQ on this.
Moving after reinforcements arrive is actually against the rules. The BRB specifically prohibits this.
Do you try to argue this way with people in real life?
JakeSiren wrote: Regardless of your understanding though there are implications throughout the rule set:
If 'at the end of the movement phase' is 'during the movement phase' then playing Cloud of Flies on reinforcements is OK
If 'at the end of the movement phase' is NOT 'during the movement phase' you lose the restrictions presented in Strategic Discipline - thus allowing you to play the same Stratagem multiple times 'at the end of the movement phase' in matched play.
This is the entire debate really. I'm not actually on either side of the argument, but people keep stating that the rules say the end of the movement phase is not during the movement phase, and I'd like a rules citation on that, otherwise it is completely ambiguous and there is no correct answer until we get an faq.
No, this isn't the only argument and this is not the entire debate. Please see any of my previous posts for another interpretation (that has yet to be directly countered).
Sorry my point was misconstrued. I didn't mean those were the only arguments. I meant that is the entire crux of the debate. Is the end of the movement phase during the movement phase? I will be happy to agree with you if you can cite the rules that state the end of the movement phase is not during the movement phase. In my BRB all I see is Movement Psychic Shooting Charge Fight Morale. I do not see a Movement, End of Movement, Psychic, End of Psychic, Shooting, End of Shooting, Charge, End of Charge, Fight, End of Fight, Morale, End of Morale. Where does it say the end is not during the phase?
That being said I do believe the INTENT is that the stratagem should be used before reinforcements. However as it is the RAW aren't clear. Therefor it needs an faq. I'll honestly be pleased with either way it's ruled but I do expect it will be ruled that it can't be used after reinforcements.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/02 21:47:42
There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court. A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty. - Lord Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov
In an Imperium of a million worlds, what is the death of one world in the cause of purity?~Inquisition credo
He who allows the alien to live, shares its crime of existence. ~Inquisitor Apollyon
2018/03/02 21:51:09
Subject: Re:"During" versus "at the end of" the phase
Secondly you appear to be working on the assumption that you must declare a target for CoF as soon as you declare that you are going to use it. I put forwards that you only need to declare a target once you start resolving the Stratagem. As of such if there are simultaneous actions you don't declare the target until you start to resolve CoF - if you disagree please demonstrate where the rules specify that you must declare a target for a stratagem before you resolve the rules within the stratagem.
Actually, your opponent has every right to know if the stratagem can be legally played, which would be checking at the point you declare you are playing the stratagem. If you announce you are playing something, he can point out if you are accidentally trying to use something in a phase you're not allowed to, or if you are trying to use something there is no valid target for. He doesn't have to wait for the resolution to point this out. If you don't have any valid units on the board with the right keywords when you announce you are using the stratagem, you don't have a target to apply to at that point. By the time you have a target, they have resolved the end of phase. to have them there (which takes the entire movement phase).. If you want to cast it on reiforcements, you have to have the reinforcements on the board before you declare (not before you resolve. You're already in the process of resolving end of turn, and the seuqencing rules do not say you are allowed to add actions that you declare you are sequencing once you have already started resolving end of phase actions through sequencing; you have to wait until the sequencing is complete. At that point, it's after the end of the phase if you're trying to affect the reinforcements. if you try to do it before, you don't have the reinforcements as a valid target to cast on. You want to play the stratagem on the reinforcements, which means their arrival on the board is the trigger for you to be able to say that you're playing a stratagem on them. You don't get to say you're playing a stratagem on them before they're on the board. You can affect other units (if you have other valid units) as targets, but not the reinforcements.
I do agree with others that the argument you are making for being able to use stratagems and declaring you are using it at the end of the phase is just the same as declaring you're moving your last unit that moves normally at the end of the phase. If you can play a stratagem normally that takes place after reinforcements arrive, then you can equally move a unit after reinforcements arrive. We know that doesn't happen, so the same limitations apply to stratagems. You don't get to declare a stratagem at the end of the phase any more than you get to move normally at the end of the phase, unless the stratagem is triggered specifically by some actions covered in the stratagem itself (Auspex, for example). You are trying to play a stratagem continengent upon the trigger of a unit arriving on the board, but the rules don't say you're allowed to announce you're playing something contingent upon such a trigger before the actual trigger event has happened.
2018/03/02 21:59:26
Subject: Re:"During" versus "at the end of" the phase
Secondly you appear to be working on the assumption that you must declare a target for CoF as soon as you declare that you are going to use it. I put forwards that you only need to declare a target once you start resolving the Stratagem. As of such if there are simultaneous actions you don't declare the target until you start to resolve CoF - if you disagree please demonstrate where the rules specify that you must declare a target for a stratagem before you resolve the rules within the stratagem.
Actually, your opponent has every right to know if the stratagem can be legally played, which would be checking at the point you declare you are playing the stratagem. If you announce you are playing something, he can point out if you are accidentally trying to use something in a phase you're not allowed to, or if you are trying to use something there is no valid target for. He doesn't have to wait for the resolution to point this out. If you don't have any valid units on the board with the right keywords when you announce you are using the stratagem, you don't have a target to apply to at that point. By the time you have a target, they have resolved the end of phase. to have them there (which takes the entire movement phase).. If you want to cast it on reiforcements, you have to have the reinforcements on the board before you declare (not before you resolve. You're already in the process of resolving end of turn, and the seuqencing rules do not say you are allowed to add actions that you declare you are sequencing once you have already started resolving end of phase actions through sequencing; you have to wait until the sequencing is complete. At that point, it's after the end of the phase if you're trying to affect the reinforcements. if you try to do it before, you don't have the reinforcements as a valid target to cast on. You want to play the stratagem on the reinforcements, which means their arrival on the board is the trigger for you to be able to say that you're playing a stratagem on them. You don't get to say you're playing a stratagem on them before they're on the board. You can affect other units (if you have other valid units) as targets, but not the reinforcements.
I do agree with others that the argument you are making for being able to use stratagems and declaring you are using it at the end of the phase is just the same as declaring you're moving your last unit that moves normally at the end of the phase. If you can play a stratagem normally that takes place after reinforcements arrive, then you can equally move a unit after reinforcements arrive. We know that doesn't happen, so the same limitations apply to stratagems. You don't get to declare a stratagem at the end of the phase any more than you get to move normally at the end of the phase, unless the stratagem is triggered specifically by some actions covered in the stratagem itself (Auspex, for example). You are trying to play a stratagem continengent upon the trigger of a unit arriving on the board, but the rules don't say you're allowed to announce you're playing something contingent upon such a trigger before the actual trigger event has happened.
What of stratagems that specify their usage at the end of the phase? How do you resolve that if you've already brought in reinforcements?
There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court. A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty. - Lord Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov
In an Imperium of a million worlds, what is the death of one world in the cause of purity?~Inquisition credo
He who allows the alien to live, shares its crime of existence. ~Inquisitor Apollyon
2018/03/02 22:04:51
Subject: "During" versus "at the end of" the phase
Zarroc1733 wrote: Sorry my point was misconstrued. I didn't mean those were the only arguments. I meant that is the entire crux of the debate. Is the end of the movement phase during the movement phase? I will be happy to agree with you if you can cite the rules that state the end of the movement phase is not during the movement phase. In my BRB all I see is Movement Psychic Shooting Charge Fight Morale. I do not see a Movement, End of Movement, Psychic, End of Psychic, Shooting, End of Shooting, Charge, End of Charge, Fight, End of Fight, Morale, End of Morale. Where does it say the end is not during the phase?
That being said I do believe the INTENT is that the stratagem should be used before reinforcements. However as it is the RAW aren't clear. Therefor it needs an faq. I'll honestly be pleased with either way it's ruled but I do expect it will be ruled that it can't be used after reinforcements.
I think RAW and RAI the intent is for the Stratagem to be used any time during the movement phase.
'End of the Movement phase' really only refers to completion of the sequence of actions spelled out in the BRB.
Saying this for the following reasons:
1) Plenty of things that happen once reinforcements arrive. Disembarking, for example, commonly happens when a transport arrives from reserves. Some armies can shoot at things arriving from reserve.
2) When in doubt, go with the simplest interpretation of the Stratagem. Stratagems spell out their own restrictions and (typically) the simplest interpretation applies. Chaos Familiar from the CSM Codex says it can be applied to any Heretic Astartes Psyker. The FAQ says that includes Death Guard, despite people crying foul over language in other parts of the book. The Stratagem prevails!
3) Stratagems can be used and applied to a target at separate times in a phase. Reinforcements may arrive at the end of the phase, but there's nothing to prevent someone from using the Stratagem before they get there - and applying it once they are there.
4) Following up on point 1 - interpreting the phrase 'end of the Movement phase' to mean the Movement phase has reached a terminal point - means the player is in the psychic phase immediately after reinforcements arrive. I'm not aware of any rules that force a player to move into a new phase of the game, in this or any other edition. This seems very different from what GW has done in the past.
techsoldaten wrote: Moving after reinforcements arrive is actually against the rules. The BRB specifically prohibits this.
Do you try to argue this way with people in real life?
Can you quote the rulebook and give a page number please?
Page 177, in the right column, under 'Reinforcements':
"Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive."
OK.
Now where does it say I can't move ANOTHER UNIT after reinforcing?
JakeSiren wrote: Ah, you mean your interpretation where you fail to consistently apply the definition of during and at the end for different rules? I assumed that's why you never bothered responding to my question, it demonstrated your inconsistency. Reposted below if you want to answer now.
Simple question, under your definition of 'During' and 'End of phase', do the restrictions listed within the 'Strategic Discipline' rule in matched play apply in the 'End of phase'?
Jake, the reason I've repeatedly ignored your question is because it only highlights your lack of understanding of what I have been writing and my interpretation of the rules. I asked you clearly what exactly you were confused about and your response was to post your question again, rather than explain why you were confused. You're confused because you aren't taking in what I'm writing.
To answer your question - yes the restrictions listed within strategic discipline apply in the End of Phase. This has no bearing on the discussion as far as I'm concerned.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/02 22:13:19
2018/03/02 22:23:46
Subject: Re:"During" versus "at the end of" the phase
Secondly you appear to be working on the assumption that you must declare a target for CoF as soon as you declare that you are going to use it. I put forwards that you only need to declare a target once you start resolving the Stratagem. As of such if there are simultaneous actions you don't declare the target until you start to resolve CoF - if you disagree please demonstrate where the rules specify that you must declare a target for a stratagem before you resolve the rules within the stratagem.
Actually, your opponent has every right to know if the stratagem can be legally played, which would be checking at the point you declare you are playing the stratagem. If you announce you are playing something, he can point out if you are accidentally trying to use something in a phase you're not allowed to, or if you are trying to use something there is no valid target for. He doesn't have to wait for the resolution to point this out. If you don't have any valid units on the board with the right keywords when you announce you are using the stratagem, you don't have a target to apply to at that point. By the time you have a target, they have resolved the end of phase. to have them there (which takes the entire movement phase).. If you want to cast it on reiforcements, you have to have the reinforcements on the board before you declare (not before you resolve. You're already in the process of resolving end of turn, and the seuqencing rules do not say you are allowed to add actions that you declare you are sequencing once you have already started resolving end of phase actions through sequencing; you have to wait until the sequencing is complete. At that point, it's after the end of the phase if you're trying to affect the reinforcements. if you try to do it before, you don't have the reinforcements as a valid target to cast on. You want to play the stratagem on the reinforcements, which means their arrival on the board is the trigger for you to be able to say that you're playing a stratagem on them. You don't get to say you're playing a stratagem on them before they're on the board. You can affect other units (if you have other valid units) as targets, but not the reinforcements.
And your answer is yes, when the Stratagem is being resolved it will be resolved against a valid target. But you are also inventing rules here. The only thing that matters is "is this legal at the time of resolution?".
You seem to be under the assumption that when you declare a stratagem that you must physically resolve it immediately before doing anything else. Under your assertion of an instantaneous end phase, how do you play any "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem and bring on reserves? If you resolve the Stratagem immediately, then declare that reserves are coming on, it's too late. Likewise if you declare reserves are coming on, resolve them, then try to use a "at the end" stratagem, it's too late.
I do agree with others that the argument you are making for being able to use stratagems and declaring you are using it at the end of the phase is just the same as declaring you're moving your last unit that moves normally at the end of the phase. If you can play a stratagem normally that takes place after reinforcements arrive, then you can equally move a unit after reinforcements arrive. We know that doesn't happen, so the same limitations apply to stratagems. You don't get to declare a stratagem at the end of the phase any more than you get to move normally at the end of the phase, unless the stratagem is triggered specifically by some actions covered in the stratagem itself (Auspex, for example). You are trying to play a stratagem continengent upon the trigger of a unit arriving on the board, but the rules don't say you're allowed to announce you're playing something contingent upon such a trigger before the actual trigger event has happened.
I have already addressed this argument before. It all comes down to when "the end of the movement phase" is allowed to trigger. The (IMO) reasonable definition is once all of your movement actions have been completed.
2018/03/02 22:31:13
Subject: "During" versus "at the end of" the phase
techsoldaten wrote: Moving after reinforcements arrive is actually against the rules. The BRB specifically prohibits this.
Do you try to argue this way with people in real life?
Can you quote the rulebook and give a page number please?
Page 177, in the right column, under 'Reinforcements':
"Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive."
OK.
Now where does it say I can't move ANOTHER UNIT after reinforcing?
It doesn't need to. p. 177, under Reinforcements:
"Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases."
The Movement phase is spelled out on p. 177 as a series of actions: Moving, Minimum Move, Enemy Models, Falling Back, and Advancing. Once these actions are complete, that's when reinforcements arrive - it's the end of the Movement phase.
So additional movement is not possible, because it specifically happens before reinforcements arrive. The rules say that.
What the rules don't say is, once reinforcements arrive, the player is now in the Psychic phase. That rule, or something like it, would exclude Stratagems that must be used during the Movement phase from being applied.
But Stratagems say when Stratagems can be applied. And GW has consistently enforced the simplest interpretation in FAQs.
Unless there is some rule you can point to that says after reinforcements arrive the player is now immediately in the Psychic phase, then the player is still in the Movement phase. I have provided plenty of examples in this thread of other things happening during the Movement phase after reinforcements arrive.
So, point to a rule or cease this silliness.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/02 22:39:06
techsoldaten wrote: Moving after reinforcements arrive is actually against the rules. The BRB specifically prohibits this.
Do you try to argue this way with people in real life?
Can you quote the rulebook and give a page number please?
Page 177, in the right column, under 'Reinforcements':
"Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive."
OK.
Now where does it say I can't move ANOTHER UNIT after reinforcing?
JakeSiren wrote: Ah, you mean your interpretation where you fail to consistently apply the definition of during and at the end for different rules? I assumed that's why you never bothered responding to my question, it demonstrated your inconsistency. Reposted below if you want to answer now.
Simple question, under your definition of 'During' and 'End of phase', do the restrictions listed within the 'Strategic Discipline' rule in matched play apply in the 'End of phase'?
Jake, the reason I've repeatedly ignored your question is because it only highlights your lack of understanding of what I have been writing and my interpretation of the rules. I asked you clearly what exactly you were confused about and your response was to post your question again, rather than explain why you were confused. You're confused because you aren't taking in what I'm writing.
To answer your question - yes the restrictions listed within strategic discipline apply in the End of Phase. This has no bearing on the discussion as far as I'm concerned.
Strategic discipline says that its restrictions apply during each phase. CoF says that it is used during the movement phase. Notice the same use of during for both of these rules?
Thank you for confirming your inconsistency of applying your definition of "during the x phase". You have demonstrated that you are willing to ignore aspects of rules that don't match how you think it should be played. There is no benefit to discussing with you as your arguments aren't based within the rules, are not logical, or consistent in your approach.
2018/03/02 22:41:14
Subject: Re:"During" versus "at the end of" the phase
Secondly you appear to be working on the assumption that you must declare a target for CoF as soon as you declare that you are going to use it. I put forwards that you only need to declare a target once you start resolving the Stratagem. As of such if there are simultaneous actions you don't declare the target until you start to resolve CoF - if you disagree please demonstrate where the rules specify that you must declare a target for a stratagem before you resolve the rules within the stratagem.
Actually, your opponent has every right to know if the stratagem can be legally played, which would be checking at the point you declare you are playing the stratagem. If you announce you are playing something, he can point out if you are accidentally trying to use something in a phase you're not allowed to, or if you are trying to use something there is no valid target for. He doesn't have to wait for the resolution to point this out. If you don't have any valid units on the board with the right keywords when you announce you are using the stratagem, you don't have a target to apply to at that point. By the time you have a target, they have resolved the end of phase. to have them there (which takes the entire movement phase).. If you want to cast it on reiforcements, you have to have the reinforcements on the board before you declare (not before you resolve. You're already in the process of resolving end of turn, and the seuqencing rules do not say you are allowed to add actions that you declare you are sequencing once you have already started resolving end of phase actions through sequencing; you have to wait until the sequencing is complete. At that point, it's after the end of the phase if you're trying to affect the reinforcements. if you try to do it before, you don't have the reinforcements as a valid target to cast on. You want to play the stratagem on the reinforcements, which means their arrival on the board is the trigger for you to be able to say that you're playing a stratagem on them. You don't get to say you're playing a stratagem on them before they're on the board. You can affect other units (if you have other valid units) as targets, but not the reinforcements.
I do agree with others that the argument you are making for being able to use stratagems and declaring you are using it at the end of the phase is just the same as declaring you're moving your last unit that moves normally at the end of the phase. If you can play a stratagem normally that takes place after reinforcements arrive, then you can equally move a unit after reinforcements arrive. We know that doesn't happen, so the same limitations apply to stratagems. You don't get to declare a stratagem at the end of the phase any more than you get to move normally at the end of the phase, unless the stratagem is triggered specifically by some actions covered in the stratagem itself (Auspex, for example). You are trying to play a stratagem continengent upon the trigger of a unit arriving on the board, but the rules don't say you're allowed to announce you're playing something contingent upon such a trigger before the actual trigger event has happened.
What of stratagems that specify their usage at the end of the phase? How do you resolve that if you've already brought in reinforcements?
Auspex - it's an exception because it specifies it's in response to Reinforcements arriving, which happens (usually) at the end of movement.
2018/03/02 22:42:59
Subject: "During" versus "at the end of" the phase
"Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases."
The Movement phase is spelled out on p. 177 as a series of actions: Moving, Minimum Move, Enemy Models, Falling Back, and Advancing. Once these actions are complete, that's when reinforcements arrive - it's the end of the Movement phase.
So additional movement is not possible, because it specifically happens before reinforcements arrive. The rules say that.
Just to be clear, it doesn't anywhere in the rulebook say the bolded part of your statement above. You are making assumptions because the specific reinforcement rules state, generally "At the end of your movement phase...."
Regardless.
So we agree that we move DURING the movement phase. We cannot move AT THE END of the movement phase because the rules suggest that it [the end] follows the res of the [during] movement phase.
When does CoF say it must be played in the movement phase?
JakeSiren wrote: Strategic discipline says that its restrictions apply during each phase. CoF says that it is used during the movement phase. Notice the same use of during for both of these rules?
Thank you for confirming your inconsistency of applying your definition of "during the x phase". You have demonstrated that you are willing to ignore aspects of rules that don't match how you think it should be played. There is no benefit to discussing with you as your arguments aren't based within the rules, are not logical, or consistent in your approach.
When do I move my models? Is it during a phase?
Oh so I can reinforce then move other models? Because that's still during the phase right? According to your definition.
Thank you for confirming your inconsistency of applying your definition of "during the x phase". You have demonstrated that you are willing to ignore aspects of rules that don't match how you think it should be played. There is no benefit to discussing with you as your arguments aren't based within the rules, are not logical, or consistent in your approach.
E - perhaps you should quote the entire Strategic Discipline rule? It's also pretty poor debating etiquette to effectively trick someone by repeatedly asking the same inane question to prove a weak and moot point. The reason for the 10 page debate is because there are inconsistencies. Note my example above.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/02 22:49:54
2018/03/02 22:45:27
Subject: "During" versus "at the end of" the phase
techsoldaten wrote: Moving after reinforcements arrive is actually against the rules. The BRB specifically prohibits this.
Do you try to argue this way with people in real life?
Can you quote the rulebook and give a page number please?
Page 177, in the right column, under 'Reinforcements':
"Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive."
OK.
Now where does it say I can't move ANOTHER UNIT after reinforcing?
It doesn't need to. p. 177, under Reinforcements:
"Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases."
The Movement phase is spelled out on p. 177 as a series of actions: Moving, Minimum Move, Enemy Models, Falling Back, and Advancing. Once these actions are complete, that's when reinforcements arrive - it's the end of the Movement phase.
So additional movement is not possible, because it specifically happens before reinforcements arrive. The rules say that.
What the rules don't say is, once reinforcements arrive, the player is now in the Psychic phase. That rule, or something like it, would exclude Stratagems that must be used during the Movement phase from being applied.
But Stratagems say when Stratagems can be applied. And GW has consistently enforced the simplest interpretation in FAQs.
Unless there is some rule you can point to that says after reinforcements arrive the player is now immediately in the Psychic phase, then the player is still in the Movement phase. I have provided plenty of examples in this thread of other things happening during the Movement phase after reinforcements arrive.
So, point to a rule or cease this silliness.
What the rules do say thougjh, is "their entire Movement phase it used in deploying on the battlefield" (just arfter the part you are quoting). It hasn't arrived until it's used its entire movement phase and is finally deployed. If it's used the engire movement phase fo rthat, then it's used the entire movement phase during which time you would play the stratagem.
2018/03/02 22:55:02
Subject: "During" versus "at the end of" the phase
doctortom wrote: What the rules do say thougjh, is "their entire Movement phase it used in deploying on the battlefield" (just arfter the part you are quoting). It hasn't arrived until it's used its entire movement phase and is finally deployed. If it's used the engire movement phase fo rthat, then it's used the entire movement phase during which time you would play the stratagem.
It's weird what people forget to include when citing rules during a discussion like this.
2018/03/02 23:28:04
Subject: "During" versus "at the end of" the phase
"Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases."
The Movement phase is spelled out on p. 177 as a series of actions: Moving, Minimum Move, Enemy Models, Falling Back, and Advancing. Once these actions are complete, that's when reinforcements arrive - it's the end of the Movement phase.
So additional movement is not possible, because it specifically happens before reinforcements arrive. The rules say that.
Just to be clear, it doesn't anywhere in the rulebook say the bolded part of your statement above. You are making assumptions because the specific reinforcement rules state, generally "At the end of your movement phase...."
Regardless.
So we agree that we move DURING the movement phase. We cannot move AT THE END of the movement phase because the rules suggest that it [the end] follows the res of the [during] movement phase.
When does CoF say it must be played in the movement phase?
Uh.... technically you are correct, the BRB does not include that sentence. That is an original statement by techsoldaten.
But the BRB does spell out the Movement phase in the exact sequence that I described. And that is everything the rules have to say about the Movement phase - complete those actions.
Those are the rules, there's nothing ambiguous about them. Once they are complete, the player is at the end of the Movement phase. Reinforcements can arrive, and a lot of other things can happen, as I have been spelling out throughout this thread.
There is NOTHING in the BRB or any of the rules for units to suggest any other interpretation. It says what happens in the phase, and then there is some stuff that happens afterwards before you move onto the Psychic phase.
So, cite something from the BRB that proves something else or continue proving how wrong a person can be.
But this is stupid, you're arguing I'm trying to trick people by summarizing the rules. Anyone can read page 177 and see exactly how they work.
