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Made in gb
Smokin' Skorcha Driver




London UK

For those who are arguing that placing a reinforcement ends your phase how do they resolve multiple reinforcements?

How does auspex scan and other similar stratagems work in terms of this issue?

Imagine if you place a unit of blightlords and deathshroud then your opponent plays Auspex scan could you play cloud of flies in response to negate?

It starts to open up a minefield. Its almost like 40k needs a LIFO sequencing structure like MtG

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/17 16:27:54


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





I agree with this , its why i have been thinking the best way to think about the end of the phase is that phase is over now its time to resovle things that happen in a "end of phase section" be intressting to see in anything comes out of the faq
   
Made in ca
Giggling Nurgling



California

All of these ambiguities could be resolved by removing reinforcements from movement and creating a new phase.
   
Made in us
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant






True. But a major faq or a thick edition of chapter approved would be needed to rewrite stratagems and such
   
Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






 Nithaniel wrote:
For those who are arguing that placing a reinforcement ends your phase how do they resolve multiple reinforcements?

How does auspex scan and other similar stratagems work in terms of this issue?

Imagine if you place a unit of blightlords and deathshroud then your opponent plays Auspex scan could you play cloud of flies in response to negate?

It starts to open up a minefield. Its almost like 40k needs a LIFO sequencing structure like MtG

I don't see the difficulty.

Reinforcements are all placed last. At the end of the phase. You place all reinforcements you wish and the movement phase has ended.

You'll have to give the exact wording of auspex scan if you want my take on that but I assume it references when "units arrive as reinforcements" so that isn't difficult either. Unit arrives as reinforcement and auspex can be triggered.
   
Made in nz
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran




Ankh Morpork

 Nithaniel wrote:
For those who are arguing that placing a reinforcement ends your phase how do they resolve multiple reinforcements?

How does auspex scan and other similar stratagems work in terms of this issue?

Imagine if you place a unit of blightlords and deathshroud then your opponent plays Auspex scan could you play cloud of flies in response to negate?

It starts to open up a minefield. Its almost like 40k needs a LIFO sequencing structure like MtG


Uh, you would use the Sequencing rule for multiple rules which are to happen at the same time.

Auspex Scan doesn't care about timing in a phase; it simply happens in response to a unit being set up as reinforcements.

I agree though that it would be worthwhile for GW to provide an FAQ ruling.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/18 03:10:43


 
   
Made in ca
Giggling Nurgling



California

The debate over whether the phase ends once reinforcements arrive shouldn’t matter. The stratagem says DURING, I.e. at any point, beginning or end...inclusive.

Sequencing rule should apply here.
   
Made in au
Flashy Flashgitz






There's a lot of mental gymnastics in here.

You clearly can not act inside the movement phase after you have completed actions that end the phase.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





This is the problem you have when using words that can mean a period of time, with rules that are effectivly instant.

In this situation reducing subjective ways of looking at things and providing clear points seems to be the way forward

.......Start your movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model until you have moved all the models you want to. You can then pick another unit to move unitil you have moved as many of your units as you wish......

It tells you it starts when you pick, the end is less clear but my reading is it ends when you dont want to move any more units and have stoped picking them.

This to me seems to fit the rules on movement best

At the begining........... before any unit has been picked to move
During......................... Once a unit has been picked to move
At the end of...............Once the last picked unit has moved

Trying to blend during into start and end is where the problems begin.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/02/18 10:05:03


 
   
Made in au
Flashy Flashgitz






Nah mate, the problem isn't what you're describing exactly. People are just claiming that the period of the game that is "end of phase" is also "during", and thus they can act as if it is during the phase.

The counter point is clear, and Englishman laid it out clearly. Some rules are noted as occurring only at the "end of phase", you may simultaneously conduct all these actions. If you act on a rule that does not occur at the end, but instead occurs "during", you have made all you previous actions that required to be at the end of the phase illegal.

This is not a time period issue, it's not a blur of distinction, it doesn't even matter when the phase ends; it only matters that you do not act after the end, which is definitely occurring if you use a stratagem after deepstrike.
   
Made in nz
Fresh-Faced New User




if you think about it, when they arrived via teleportarium why wouldnt they have a Cloud of flies around them? was there Raid in the telportarium killing off all the flies?
Maybe the only reason it says During the movement phase is so no one uses it during psychic shooting or fight phase.
Movement phase could be the sum of all of its parts, its made of a begining of movement- middle of movement and end of movement.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





But then you can argue that its still the phase once you have played the end of phase stratagem because its and like people have said still during it and because it all happens at once you can look at yhe sequncing rules


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If eveything is happening at the same time then the during hasnt broken any rules because one hasnt happen before the other


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Which is why i maintain it is a timing issue


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also why do tbey happen at the same time dosnt every unit have there own deepstrike rule ?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/02/18 13:30:03


 
   
Made in ca
Giggling Nurgling



California

hollow one wrote:
Nah mate, the problem isn't what you're describing exactly. People are just claiming that the period of the game that is "end of phase" is also "during", and thus they can act as if it is during the phase.

The counter point is clear, and Englishman laid it out clearly. Some rules are noted as occurring only at the "end of phase", you may simultaneously conduct all these actions. If you act on a rule that does not occur at the end, but instead occurs "during", you have made all you previous actions that required to be at the end of the phase illegal.

This is not a time period issue, it's not a blur of distinction, it doesn't even matter when the phase ends; it only matters that you do not act after the end, which is definitely occurring if you use a stratagem after deepstrike.

Okay, but the Englishman left out one very important fact. During is a preposition meant to be inclusive and all encompassing. Therefore, sequencing rule would kick in.
Think of “during” as a wild card. It can replace “at the start”, “in the phase”, or “at the end” and still be true to its meaning.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Only if you have the perspective that at the end of means its still happening,

The rules appear to say the movement phase ends when you stop moving models.

So i can finnish my movement phase by stop moving models, then i can use my depolyment rule at the end of the movement phase and its still true to its meaning

Also just in case
the movement phase being over does not equal the physic phase has started

   
Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






Rotborn wrote:

Okay, but the Englishman left out one very important fact. During is a preposition meant to be inclusive and all encompassing. Therefore, sequencing rule would kick in.
Think of “during” as a wild card. It can replace “at the start”, “in the phase”, or “at the end” and still be true to its meaning.

Not given the context of this rule, stratagem and discussion.

Something that must happen at the end of the phase must happen at the end, it's simple as. If you do something after that in the same phase you've broken the rules.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





No rule has been broken. At the end of dosnt mean last thing done because if it did you couldnt use raptor strike and jump pack assult.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/18 18:38:04


 
   
Made in ca
Giggling Nurgling



California

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Rotborn wrote:

Okay, but the Englishman left out one very important fact. During is a preposition meant to be inclusive and all encompassing. Therefore, sequencing rule would kick in.
Think of “during” as a wild card. It can replace “at the start”, “in the phase”, or “at the end” and still be true to its meaning.

Not given the context of this rule, stratagem and discussion.

Something that must happen at the end of the phase must happen at the end, it's simple as. If you do something after that in the same phase you've broken the rules.

Really? Then why is there a Sequencing rule?
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





There is no clear way to define end of phase , im out untill a faq drops
   
Made in ca
Giggling Nurgling



California

ian wrote:
There is no clear way to define end of phase , im out untill a faq drops

It doesn’t matter how you define it. The definition of “during” is all that matters.
Edit: During can make an action become the start or end of a phase. It’s an inclusive preposition.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/18 18:59:22


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Again only if you beleave that end of phase means its still happening. Its perfectly acceptable for end of phase to mean its over.

Everybody clapped at the end of his speach

That dosnt mean people started clapping during his speach normaly it happens once his speach has finnished

The raptors arrived at the end of the movement phase
This could be the same as above they arrived once the movement phase has finnished

End of phase is subjective and its down to you how you want to appy the rule



   
Made in us
Nasty Nob on a Boar





Galveston County

TLR. Can I shoot units who are moving on the battlefield after deployment but before the game begins with a stratagem?

Specifically Eldar rangers. Can I use my stratagem to shoot them as they are arriving as reinforcements.

No madam, 40,000 is the year that this game is set in. Not how much it costs. Though you may have a point. - GW Fulchester
The Gatling Guns have flamethrowers on them because this is 40k - DOW III
 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





As far as i am aware reineforcements are classed as mid turn and as the turn hasnt begun they couldnt be reinforcements
   
Made in ca
Giggling Nurgling



California

ian wrote:
Again only if you beleave that end of phase means its still happening. Its perfectly acceptable for end of phase to mean its over.

Everybody clapped at the end of his speach

That dosnt mean people started clapping during his speach normaly it happens once his speach has finnished

The raptors arrived at the end of the movement phase
This could be the same as above they arrived once the movement phase has finnished

End of phase is subjective and its down to you how you want to appy the rule


In your example, the clapping takes the place of the deep striking unit.

What you’re arguing is that reinforcements do not take place in the movement phase. Which, of course, they do.

I would argue that Cloud of Flies would be a hand gesture that the speaker performs to energize his audience, which coincides with his final statement (the blightlords).

Both actions come at the end.
Edit: ...and both are DURING the speech.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/18 20:59:10


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





The speaker can do what ever he wants during. I am saying that they started clapping at the end and that happen after he spoke.

Yes i am saying they dont happen in the movement phase. It happens directly after

Just like forward operatives dont happen in the deployment part or the movement phase .

I cannot say what part of the game it happens in ?

What i am saying is that the end of the phase is based on your interpration of that phrase its either an ending part or directly after
   
Made in ca
Giggling Nurgling



California

ian wrote:

Yes i am saying they dont happen in the movement phase. It happens directly after


Well, you’re clearly wrong.
Once the battle begins, there are only 6 phases in each player’s turn. Every action takes place during one of those 6 phases and each phase happens in a specific order.
GW can and will FAQ this however they want, but RAW this stratagem can be used at any point in the phase, including overriding the end of a phase to assert its action as the final operation of the phase.
   
Made in au
Flashy Flashgitz






Everyones focusing on the word "during" but that's not what matters. You're acting illegally if you act after the end of the phase. When you complete all your "end of phase" actions, the phase is over. You can not then continue to act "during" and claim it is still the end. Because if you do, your previous actions that must be at the end, are not.

In our example, you can not put the strategem on the reinforcements, because there is clear sequencing. You must add the reinforcements to the field, then the unit is on the board, then you hit em with cloud. That is not simultaneous. If you act this way, your reinforcements did not occur at the end of phase, and thus you added reinforcements illegally.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/18 22:20:19


 
   
Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






hollow one wrote:
Everyones focusing on the word "during" but that's not what matters. You're acting illegally if you act after the end of the phase. When you complete all your "end of phase" actions, the phase is over. You can not then continue to act "during" and claim it is still the end. Because if you do, your previous actions that must be at the end, are not.

In our example, you can not put the strategem on the reinforcements, because there is clear sequencing. You must add the reinforcements to the field, then the unit is on the board, then you hit em with cloud. That is not simultaneous. If you act this way, your reinforcements did not occur at the end of turn, and thus you added reinforcements illegally.


Thank you. I have tried saying the same thing as clearly as I could a few pages back but obviously it wasn't clear enough to some.

I'm not sure how better or clearer to put it than your summary above. If anyone can contest this I'd be intrigued as to how?
   
Made in ca
Giggling Nurgling



California

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
hollow one wrote:
Everyones focusing on the word "during" but that's not what matters. You're acting illegally if you act after the end of the phase. When you complete all your "end of phase" actions, the phase is over. You can not then continue to act "during" and claim it is still the end. Because if you do, your previous actions that must be at the end, are not.

In our example, you can not put the strategem on the reinforcements, because there is clear sequencing. You must add the reinforcements to the field, then the unit is on the board, then you hit em with cloud. That is not simultaneous. If you act this way, your reinforcements did not occur at the end of turn, and thus you added reinforcements illegally.


Thank you. I have tried saying the same thing as clearly as I could a few pages back but obviously it wasn't clear enough to some.

I'm not sure how better or clearer to put it than your summary above. If anyone can contest this I'd be intrigued as to how?

The rules for sequencing allow for “an end” to not be the end. What is the difference between the following:

Ex. 1
1. Deep strike Blightlords
2. Deep strike Term Lord
Or
Ex.2
1. Deep strike Blightlords
2. Use stratagem
3. Deep strike Term Lord

The rules do not state that reinforcements arrive simultaneously, as some people have claimed in this thread. They make no mention of multiple reinforcements arriving in the same player turn, they only mention them arriving over the course of the entire game.

If the first is allowed, there is no reason the second shouldn’t be a allowed.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





I agree thats how it works i have been side tracked onto when the end of the phase is

Clearly you are not understanding the concept i am basing my idea on which is the forward operatives startagem which dosnt have a label of when it happens.

End of movement phase ( but before physic )

Hopfully i have found somthing in the rules to help brb pg 215

Before the battle begins and at the end of a battle round are both classed as not being in a phase.

So it would seem that end of does not mean during a battle round

It would seem that before is the same as end of , or another way to put it as after.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/18 23:08:21


 
   
Made in au
Flashy Flashgitz






Rotborn wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
hollow one wrote:
Everyones focusing on the word "during" but that's not what matters. You're acting illegally if you act after the end of the phase. When you complete all your "end of phase" actions, the phase is over. You can not then continue to act "during" and claim it is still the end. Because if you do, your previous actions that must be at the end, are not.

In our example, you can not put the strategem on the reinforcements, because there is clear sequencing. You must add the reinforcements to the field, then the unit is on the board, then you hit em with cloud. That is not simultaneous. If you act this way, your reinforcements did not occur at the end of turn, and thus you added reinforcements illegally.


Thank you. I have tried saying the same thing as clearly as I could a few pages back but obviously it wasn't clear enough to some.

I'm not sure how better or clearer to put it than your summary above. If anyone can contest this I'd be intrigued as to how?

The rules for sequencing allow for “an end” to not be the end. What is the difference between the following:

Ex. 1
1. Deep strike Blightlords
2. Deep strike Term Lord
Or
Ex.2
1. Deep strike Blightlords
2. Use stratagem
3. Deep strike Term Lord

The rules do not state that reinforcements arrive simultaneously, as some people have claimed in this thread. They make no mention of multiple reinforcements arriving in the same player turn, they only mention them arriving over the course of the entire game.

If the first is allowed, there is no reason the second shouldn’t be a allowed.
By your logic I can also do this:

Ex. 3
1. Deep strike Blightlords
2. Move Cultists
3. Deep strike Term Lord

Much like your stratagem, I can perform movements during the movement phase.

Also: think about this. You're proposing that it is illegal to use the stratagem if you only have 1 deepstrike. But if you have 2 deepstrike its okay.

New Ex. 1
1. Deep strike Blightlords
end of turn, no further deep strikes, can't use stratagem.

New Ex. 2
1. Deep strike Blightlords
2. use stratagem
3. Deep strike Term Lord

for no reason other than you have more than 1 deep strike, you are now apparently legally allowed to use your stratagem? Seems daft.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/18 23:30:04


 
   
 
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