Sheer speed in itself is not necessarily a crucial advantage.
The land speed record car goes faster than a jet fighter, but only in a straight line. If you wanted to drive around Monaco, a formula one car would beat it easily. If you wanted to drive around an English town with lots of winding streets and narrow alleys, a push bike would be the best choice.
The Federation may take a year to get from one side of the galaxy to the other, but they don't need to get to cross the galaxy, they only need to get around the Federation, and their ships are pretty fast at that.
The Empire ships are a lot faster, but they are more difficult to navigate in hyperspace and need to find good routes. They have no local knowledge and their sensor capability is fairly poor.
The speed of Empire ships moving around the Federation may be like flying around Europe in modern times. You can get from anywhere to anywhere in five hours, but it takes at least three hours to get anywhere because of all the pre-flight and post-flight procedures which use a lot of time however short the actual distance.
Kilkrazy wrote: Sheer speed in itself is not necessarily a crucial advantage.
The land speed record car goes faster than a jet fighter, but only in a straight line. If you wanted to drive around Monaco, a formula one car would beat it easily. If you wanted to drive around an English town with lots of winding streets and narrow alleys, a push bike would be the best choice.
The Federation may take a year to get from one side of the galaxy to the other, but they don't need to get to cross the galaxy, they only need to get around the Federation, and their ships are pretty fast at that.
The Empire ships are a lot faster, but they are more difficult to navigate in hyperspace and need to find good routes. They have no local knowledge and their sensor capability is fairly poor.
The speed of Empire ships moving around the Federation may be like flying around Europe in modern times. You can get from anywhere to anywhere in five hours, but it takes at least three hours to get anywhere because of all the pre-flight and post-flight procedures which use a lot of time however short the actual distance.
The issue is that once the Star Destroyers get somewhere, by the time the Federation sends help the Star Destroyers will be long gone and whoever you were trying to save is dead. The Federation ceases to exist anywhere except on the ships that remain. Their ships are too slow to mount effective responses. All of Star Fleet command will be captured before any federation ships even begin to travel towards earth.
You're assuming that Starfleet Command would be left so indefensible that ISDs could just show up and ace everything. That's a rather ridiculous assumption to make solely to forge a narrative (heh) that is easily disputed.
Which again boils down to The Federations fatal flaw - they never pick the fight.
So indefensible or not, The Empire would have all the time in the world to figure out just how they want to take down the Federation - assuming they don't just usurp it, as Palpatine did The Republic.
Seriously. One is run by well meaning Hippies (and is the sort of society I wish for humanity), the other is run by an insane, all-powerful dictator with a Cult of Personality....
Marmatag wrote: It has been established that objects traveling at warp speed collide with a ship in star wars and instantly destroy it.
Since photon torpedoes can be fired at warp speeds, they would instantly destroy any Star Wars ship.
EDIT- this was in reference to the picture on the front page. Although, i would actually have to check the mass of a photon torpedo.
Already did the math. .75 light speed when fired from sublight. If fired from warp it will maintain speed. At a minimum the kentic energy alone is 6 Mt. The warhead it's self is like 80+ Gt.
Tyran wrote: The Empire was unable to reconquer a single rebel planet (Lothal), which shows the Empire' ability to mount offensive operations is gak.
I don't see them mounting an offensive operation on a polity they do not know, in space they do not know and without mapped hyperspace lanes.
Lothal wasn't really a big planet to the Empire and not really a decent use of operations to take back around that time, because one has to remember Lothal was taken very easily when the Empire decided to focus upon it, and they wanted to keep it rather then slag it back to the stone ages.
Also given people's bringing up of ugh Episode 8's breaking of all the hyperspace rules.. What's to prevent the Empire from just basically slapping on hyperdrives to all ships and slamming them full tilt into Federation projects I wonder.
Tyran wrote: The Empire was unable to reconquer a single rebel planet (Lothal), which shows the Empire' ability to mount offensive operations is gak.
I don't see them mounting an offensive operation on a polity they do not know, in space they do not know and without mapped hyperspace lanes.
Lothal wasn't really a big planet to the Empire and not really a decent use of operations to take back around that time, because one has to remember Lothal was taken very easily when the Empire decided to focus upon it, and they wanted to keep it rather then slag it back to the stone ages.
Also given people's bringing up of ugh Episode 8's breaking of all the hyperspace rules.. What's to prevent the Empire from just basically slapping on hyperdrives to all ships and slamming them full tilt into Federation projects I wonder.
Just going to point out hyperspace does not actually produce momentum. Its an alternate dimension - you do not actually exist in real space when you are in hyperspace. The entire scene - though cool looking - would be impossible.
I know what Star Wars hyperspace does, but given that Episode 8 exists it's somewhat of a canon measure now no matter how much some desire 8 not to be.
Kilkrazy wrote: Sheer speed in itself is not necessarily a crucial advantage.
The land speed record car goes faster than a jet fighter, but only in a straight line. If you wanted to drive around Monaco, a formula one car would beat it easily. If you wanted to drive around an English town with lots of winding streets and narrow alleys, a push bike would be the best choice.
The Federation may take a year to get from one side of the galaxy to the other, but they don't need to get to cross the galaxy, they only need to get around the Federation, and their ships are pretty fast at that.
The Empire ships are a lot faster, but they are more difficult to navigate in hyperspace and need to find good routes. They have no local knowledge and their sensor capability is fairly poor.
The speed of Empire ships moving around the Federation may be like flying around Europe in modern times. You can get from anywhere to anywhere in five hours, but it takes at least three hours to get anywhere because of all the pre-flight and post-flight procedures which use a lot of time however short the actual distance.
The issue is that once the Star Destroyers get somewhere, by the time the Federation sends help the Star Destroyers will be long gone and whoever you were trying to save is dead. The Federation ceases to exist anywhere except on the ships that remain. Their ships are too slow to mount effective responses. All of Star Fleet command will be captured before any federation ships even begin to travel towards earth.
This assumes the following:
The Empre knows where to find all the Federation bases.
The Empire has already scouted safe hyperspace routes and can jump to them easily.
The Imperial ships can avoid encountering any Federation ships in system, as the Federation cruisers have superior sensors, and are invisble and much faster in warp.
The Empire actually can bombard the Federation bases and planets well enough to destroy them for no purpose, while losing lots of ships.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: The warhead is 3kg because the 1.5kg antimatter also needs 1.5kg matter to react with.
Nah, the target provides that.
This is/was one of the arguments as to why most photon torpedo explosions are so small. 'Structural Integrity' force fields repels most of the am away from the hull, meaning that annihilation isn't complete.
This of course completely ignores the matter comprising of the PT hull and engine.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: The warhead is 3kg because the 1.5kg antimatter also needs 1.5kg matter to react with.
Nah, the target provides that.
No, the matter/antimatter is explicitly mixed in some special way that we aren't told how it works in order to somehow increase the blast yield, so it doesn't use the target's matter to react with.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: I know what Star Wars hyperspace does, but given that Episode 8 exists it's somewhat of a canon measure now no matter how much some desire 8 not to be.
Well - it didn't even destroy Snokes ship. So it's not going to destroy a planet.
I.. Didn't say it would? By Federation projects I mean space stations, ships, maybe land based targets if the need be. If the Federation ships are supposed to be stronger in general strapping hyperspace drives to TIE fighters and firing them off instead as suicide bombers might prove to be more valuable.
Kilkrazy wrote: Sheer speed in itself is not necessarily a crucial advantage.
The land speed record car goes faster than a jet fighter, but only in a straight line. If you wanted to drive around Monaco, a formula one car would beat it easily. If you wanted to drive around an English town with lots of winding streets and narrow alleys, a push bike would be the best choice.
The Federation may take a year to get from one side of the galaxy to the other, but they don't need to get to cross the galaxy, they only need to get around the Federation, and their ships are pretty fast at that.
The Empire ships are a lot faster, but they are more difficult to navigate in hyperspace and need to find good routes. They have no local knowledge and their sensor capability is fairly poor.
The speed of Empire ships moving around the Federation may be like flying around Europe in modern times. You can get from anywhere to anywhere in five hours, but it takes at least three hours to get anywhere because of all the pre-flight and post-flight procedures which use a lot of time however short the actual distance.
The issue is that once the Star Destroyers get somewhere, by the time the Federation sends help the Star Destroyers will be long gone and whoever you were trying to save is dead. The Federation ceases to exist anywhere except on the ships that remain. Their ships are too slow to mount effective responses. All of Star Fleet command will be captured before any federation ships even begin to travel towards earth.
This assumes the following:
The Empre knows where to find all the Federation bases.
The Empire has already scouted safe hyperspace routes and can jump to them easily.
The Imperial ships can avoid encountering any Federation ships in system, as the Federation cruisers have superior sensors, and are invisble and much faster in warp.
The Empire actually can bombard the Federation bases and planets well enough to destroy them for no purpose, while losing lots of ships.
Easy.
Again, the flaw here is pacifism. Knock about in your ships. Suss out what needs sussing out. It's ok. As long as you don't attack, the Federation will leave you well alone. Because they're Noble Hippies. If it takes a few weeks, it takes a few weeks. If it takes a few years, it takes a few years. But sooner or later, you'll be able to blat them good.
And as previously demonstrated, Turbolasers seem to work on a similar principle to Disruptors. Star Destroyers carry a lot of them. An awful lot. Batteries of them. So wrecking a single, curious Federation ship would be no trouble at all. Spesh as you always get to fire first. And we've also no reason to believe Ion Weapons wouldn't do the same job. Switch off a single ship, and you've got access to the Federation's starcharts. And with said Starcharts, you can start plotting hyperspace. Or simply reverse engineer Warp Drives on an industrial scale. All whilst The Federation sits on its hands out of sheer pacifism.
Sure, they'll eventually notice one of their ships hasn't reported in. But then, Star Trek is littered with examples of shrugged shoulders as to what happened, until the Enterprise turns up.
Kilkrazy wrote: Sheer speed in itself is not necessarily a crucial advantage.
The land speed record car goes faster than a jet fighter, but only in a straight line. If you wanted to drive around Monaco, a formula one car would beat it easily. If you wanted to drive around an English town with lots of winding streets and narrow alleys, a push bike would be the best choice.
The Federation may take a year to get from one side of the galaxy to the other, but they don't need to get to cross the galaxy, they only need to get around the Federation, and their ships are pretty fast at that.
The Empire ships are a lot faster, but they are more difficult to navigate in hyperspace and need to find good routes. They have no local knowledge and their sensor capability is fairly poor.
The speed of Empire ships moving around the Federation may be like flying around Europe in modern times. You can get from anywhere to anywhere in five hours, but it takes at least three hours to get anywhere because of all the pre-flight and post-flight procedures which use a lot of time however short the actual distance.
The issue is that once the Star Destroyers get somewhere, by the time the Federation sends help the Star Destroyers will be long gone and whoever you were trying to save is dead. The Federation ceases to exist anywhere except on the ships that remain. Their ships are too slow to mount effective responses. All of Star Fleet command will be captured before any federation ships even begin to travel towards earth.
This assumes the following:
The Empre knows where to find all the Federation bases.
The Empire has already scouted safe hyperspace routes and can jump to them easily.
The Imperial ships can avoid encountering any Federation ships in system, as the Federation cruisers have superior sensors, and are invisble and much faster in warp.
The Empire actually can bombard the Federation bases and planets well enough to destroy them for no purpose, while losing lots of ships.
All of those assumptions have to be made for any "X Sci-fi vs Y Sci-fi" comparisons to be made. Both sides are aware of the other's locations. Which does the federation no good since it would take them thousands of years to get any sort of foothold in the Star Wars Galaxy, meanwhile it would take mere months at most for the Empire to get around the Milky Way galaxy. Who cares if the Federation knows where Coruscant is if it would take them thousands of years to get there, and even if they did capture it then what? Its not like Palpatine would care much about losing his capital, he'd be long evacuated by the time anybody arrived there. And when they did they're probably find a few thousand ships waiting for them.
The Federation has an extremely low density of starships. In several episodes, the Enterprise comes back to Earth and there are NO other federation ships there. This means that Earth is routinely left without any ships actively defending it, and there are clearly no defense satellites or ground installations. And certainly no ground troops. Ergo, a fleet of Star Destroyers shows up and there is nothing to prevent them from capturing the planet within hours, or leveling it if they want. Rinse and repeat for most other planets till the survivors get wise and either concentrate their ships in static defensive positions or decide to evacuate everybody and flee. And this is assuming that Star Trek ships are orders of magnitude more combat capable that Star Wars vessels, which has not been demonstrated.
If we go with a more realistic power ratio of Federation combat technology being 2-3 times more powerful than Star Wars equivalent vessels, which is still quite generous to Star Trek, the Empire still rolls over the Federation due to numbers. Because unlike the Rebellion, which used insurgency tactics to weaken the Empire from the inside, the Federation would have to fight the Empire in pitched battles, where sheer numbers would carry the day. Starfleet at most had a few hundred ships at any one time. We know they had very few ships because the first battle with the Borg was a crippling loss, of 40 ships. The Empire had over 25,000 ISDs, thats just one class of ship. We're not talking being out numbered dozens of times over, we're talking about being outnumbered thousands of times over.
And not to mention that Starfleet is quite explicitly not a military organization. They have no practical combat training, nor do they have any of the mental fortitude that an actual large scale war would require. And a few hardliners from Section 31 aren't going to be enough to make up.
I'm pretty sure that Section 31 are about as far away from hippies as you can possibly get.
Also, why do those assumptions "have" to be made? It's an awful lot of assumptions that all just happen to favour the Empire, just like the assumption that Photon Torpedoes only manage 64 megatons of blast yield, that the Federation wouldn't use time travel when its existence is threatened, that Star Destroyer hulls and/or shields stop transporters and so on and so forth ad nauseam.
Are we starting to realize what I meant when I said the conflict would be decided by what assumptions we make yet?
This is a good point. I would proffer if they had the capacity to effectively first strike most major installations, then they would win hardly, even if most of the Fed fleet is untouched. The Empire could overwhelm "fixed defenses" in that manner.
Alpha Quadrants pants were down, and the ankles were in a firm, but comfortable, grip. Then DEUS EX MACHINA, and jobs a good’un. They defeated the Dominion because that foe had one reliable source of reinforcements. With the Wormhole, the Dominion didn’t need shipyards in the Alpha Quadrant. They had a whole quadrant of production capacity already.
Then that was taken away, and their main shipyard destroyed in the Alpha Quadrant. In yet another DEUS EX MACHINA move.
The Empire just needs to do what The Federation won’t - kick off a smallish War. Come to the aid of beleaguered systems. Win over the populace. Make The Federation look weak. Create dissent. I mean, look at how nearly successful The Maquis were...
The Prophets intervening wasn't a Deus Ex Machina. They were a well-established part of the show's continuity by the time "Sacrifice of Angels" took place. The Dominion flew straight into a hornet's nest and paid the price. A Deus ex Machina would have been someone like Q showing up despite having only been in the first episode and hand-waving the Dominion out of existence.
Hyperdrives in starwars have limited fuel supply - they probably have enough power to cross their entire galaxy on a single tank but intergalactic travel involves much greater distances.
Could the empire even reach the milky way.
The closest (legit size) galaxy to the milky way is 2.7 million light years away. Compared to the diameter of the milky way 180,000 ly - we are looking at about 15x the distance as your standard outer rim to outer rim trek across the starwars galaxy (assuming the starwars galaxy is of similar size the milky way). Plus - the locale of the starwars galaxy is stated to be "far far away" so I am going to assume this means - compared to other galaxies compared to our own.
Is there any starwars canon of imperial ships going to another galaxy?
All the speed in the world is meaningless if you don't have the gas to get there.
Hyperdrives in starwars have limited fuel supply - they probably have enough power to cross their entire galaxy on a single tank but intergalactic travel involves much greater distances.
Could the empire even reach the milky way.
The closest (legit size) galaxy to the milky way is 2.7 million light years away. Compared to the diameter of the milky way 180,000 ly - we are looking at about 15x the distance as your standard outer rim to outer rim trek across the starwars galaxy (assuming the starwars galaxy is of similar size the milky way). Plus - the locale of the starwars galaxy is stated to be "far far away" so I am going to assume this means - compared to other galaxies compared to our own.
Is there any starwars canon of imperial ships going to another galaxy?
All the speed in the world is meaningless if you don't have the gas to get there.
Hyperdrives in starwars have limited fuel supply - they probably have enough power to cross their entire galaxy on a single tank but intergalactic travel involves much greater distances.
Could the empire even reach the milky way.
The closest (legit size) galaxy to the milky way is 2.7 million light years away. Compared to the diameter of the milky way 180,000 ly - we are looking at about 15x the distance as your standard outer rim to outer rim trek across the starwars galaxy (assuming the starwars galaxy is of similar size the milky way). Plus - the locale of the starwars galaxy is stated to be "far far away" so I am going to assume this means - compared to other galaxies compared to our own.
Is there any starwars canon of imperial ships going to another galaxy?
All the speed in the world is meaningless if you don't have the gas to get there.
Same question for the Trek ships...
Well - the last episode latest in the time line comes from voyager - which returned through a transwarp conduit and with some transwarp tech. Transwarp is essentially instant teleportation to any place at any time in history (at leasts that is how it is described in voyager) reasonable to assume the the federation scientist can reverse engineer that tech.
Hyperdrives in starwars have limited fuel supply - they probably have enough power to cross their entire galaxy on a single tank but intergalactic travel involves much greater distances.
Could the empire even reach the milky way.
The closest (legit size) galaxy to the milky way is 2.7 million light years away. Compared to the diameter of the milky way 180,000 ly - we are looking at about 15x the distance as your standard outer rim to outer rim trek across the starwars galaxy (assuming the starwars galaxy is of similar size the milky way). Plus - the locale of the starwars galaxy is stated to be "far far away" so I am going to assume this means - compared to other galaxies compared to our own.
Is there any starwars canon of imperial ships going to another galaxy?
All the speed in the world is meaningless if you don't have the gas to get there.
Same question for the Trek ships...
Well - the last episode latest in the time line comes from voyager - which returned through a transwarp conduit and with some transwarp tech. Transwarp is essentially instant teleportation to any place at any time in history (at leasts that is how it is described in voyager) reasonable to assume the the federation scientist can reverse engineer that tech.
Well if that is reasonable, then we’ll assume the Empire has dozens of Eclipse class SSDs.
Grey Templar wrote: That transport had not jumped to light speed yet. It just hit at sublight speeds.
Yeah, I just re-watched it a few minutes ago and was going to correct that. Thanks for reminding me!
Of course, that would have been a perfect moment for a hyperspace ram, don't you think? "We're gonna die anyway, so..." (yank the hyperdrive levers...)
The Holdo Maneuver really is a mess. It creates more problems than it solves. It's best just to ignore DisneyWars entirely when talking about Star Wars starship tactics and battles.
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Kilkrazy wrote: Sheer speed in itself is not necessarily a crucial advantage.
The land speed record car goes faster than a jet fighter, but only in a straight line. If you wanted to drive around Monaco, a formula one car would beat it easily. If you wanted to drive around an English town with lots of winding streets and narrow alleys, a push bike would be the best choice.
The Federation may take a year to get from one side of the galaxy to the other, but they don't need to get to cross the galaxy, they only need to get around the Federation, and their ships are pretty fast at that.
The Empire ships are a lot faster, but they are more difficult to navigate in hyperspace and need to find good routes. They have no local knowledge and their sensor capability is fairly poor.
The speed of Empire ships moving around the Federation may be like flying around Europe in modern times. You can get from anywhere to anywhere in five hours, but it takes at least three hours to get anywhere because of all the pre-flight and post-flight procedures which use a lot of time however short the actual distance.
True, but if it takes Starfleet a week to get a ship there to oppose them, does it really matter if it took them two extra hours for 'procedures'?
And never underestimate the Empire's recon ability. In ESB they probed over 100 systems remotely in less than a day (assuming each of the two dozen star destroyers in Vader's fleet deployed five or six probe droids each). How many probe droids do you think a large freighter could carry to do pre-attack recon? A couple thousand? More for a bulk freighter? And Starfleet would never stoop to attacking an unarmed and empty ship in time of peace...
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AlmightyWalrus wrote: The warhead is 3kg because the 1.5kg antimatter also needs 1.5kg matter to react with.
Or you could just set it up to use some of the mass of the torpedo itself....
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ZebioLizard2 wrote: I.. Didn't say it would? By Federation projects I mean space stations, ships, maybe land based targets if the need be. If the Federation ships are supposed to be stronger in general strapping hyperspace drives to TIE fighters and firing them off instead as suicide bombers might prove to be more valuable.
Or use probe droids, which come with hyperdrives built in.
Eeek! Now that freighter with a couple thousand probe droids just became the Empire's capability to destroy Starfleet without losing a single ship!
Still think we should use Episode VIII's broken canon?
Hyperdrives in starwars have limited fuel supply - they probably have enough power to cross their entire galaxy on a single tank but intergalactic travel involves much greater distances.
Could the empire even reach the milky way.
The closest (legit size) galaxy to the milky way is 2.7 million light years away. Compared to the diameter of the milky way 180,000 ly - we are looking at about 15x the distance as your standard outer rim to outer rim trek across the starwars galaxy (assuming the starwars galaxy is of similar size the milky way). Plus - the locale of the starwars galaxy is stated to be "far far away" so I am going to assume this means - compared to other galaxies compared to our own.
Is there any starwars canon of imperial ships going to another galaxy?
All the speed in the world is meaningless if you don't have the gas to get there.
Freighters are a thing. And the Clone Wars shows that you can load canisters of fuel for transport. So... the Empire brings along a few dozen, or even a few thousand, freighters carrying fuel along with a couple full of probe droids. No big deal for a fleet that has tens of thousands of combat ships. Heck, they might well have hundreds of specialized fuel transports, or develop them just for the attack.
Well - the last episode latest in the time line comes from voyager - which returned through a transwarp conduit and with some transwarp tech. Transwarp is essentially instant teleportation to any place at any time in history (at leasts that is how it is described in voyager) reasonable to assume the the federation scientist can reverse engineer that tech.
Given some of the deus ex machina that Star Trek has technobabbled into existence, you can always argue that Star Trek wins by deus ex machina every time.
It doesn't tell you anything meaningful about the actual balance of power in a straight military conflict, though. All it tells you is what I said earlier. The Imperal Fleet gives Starfleet quite the drubbing until the Name Ship of the series arrives and technobabbles a win. Not a very compelling story, though.
Xenomancers wrote: Plus - the locale of the starwars galaxy is stated to be "far far away" so I am going to assume this means - compared to other galaxies compared to our own.
Yeah, but like, there's times when my TV remote is just over there, slightly beyond my fingertips, and that's Far Far Away.
A lot of people are forgetting the Federation's well-documented and proven ability to reverse engineer new technology in an hour (45 minutes when you take out commercials).
So that's how long the Empire has the advantage of FTL mobility
Ah ah ah! Geordi La Forge's ability to reverse engineer tech in 45 minutes Or B'Elanna. Or O'Brien, depending on which show you're watching.
Everyone else in Star Trek? They're incompetent. Every time they find another Federation ship adrift, it's not far off
'So what happened, Relevant Chief Engineer'
'Well Captain, it appears they found this alien Toaster. And then all took turns shoving their John Thomas' in it, and switching it on'
'When you say all of them?'
'All the crew, Captain. Even the women. Seems they actually replicated diddlers for the women, just so they could shove them in the alien Toaster'
'Weirdos'
Kid_Kyoto wrote: A lot of people are forgetting the Federation's well-documented and proven ability to reverse engineer new technology in an hour (45 minutes when you take out commercials).
So that's how long the Empire has the advantage of FTL mobility
Step 1: Acquire hyperdrive.
Step 2: Hand over to Wesley, Geordi and Data.
Step 3: Picard speech on morality and/or Shakespeare.
Xenomancers wrote: Plus - the locale of the starwars galaxy is stated to be "far far away" so I am going to assume this means - compared to other galaxies compared to our own.
Yeah, but like, there's times when my TV remote is just over there, slightly beyond my fingertips, and that's Far Far Away.
Very true - so close - but yet so far!
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Ah ah ah! Geordi La Forge's ability to reverse engineer tech in 45 minutes Or B'Elanna. Or O'Brien, depending on which show you're watching.
Everyone else in Star Trek? They're incompetent. Every time they find another Federation ship adrift, it's not far off
'So what happened, Relevant Chief Engineer'
'Well Captain, it appears they found this alien Toaster. And then all took turns shoving their John Thomas' in it, and switching it on'
'When you say all of them?'
'All the crew, Captain. Even the women. Seems they actually replicated diddlers for the women, just so they could shove them in the alien Toaster'
'Weirdos'
Kid_Kyoto wrote: A lot of people are forgetting the Federation's well-documented and proven ability to reverse engineer new technology in an hour (45 minutes when you take out commercials).
So that's how long the Empire has the advantage of FTL mobility
That's 45 minutes after the main characters show up to Deus Ex Machina their way out of their problems, thank you. The rest of Star Fleet has shown no such capability.
If we are going to base this discussion on 'Who has the better plot ability to get out of circumstances they have no hope of surviving much less winning', then sure, we can go with Star Trek all year long.
But as a serious appraisal of relative military power it falls a bit flat, don't you think? Especially if the Empire's opening move is to slam a couple dozen probe droids at hyperspace speeds into every ship in Star Fleet.
But popping out of hyperspace doesn't actually do anything, right? You're just translating from one plane of existence to another, they're not actually travelling at relativistic speeds.
Plus, how is the Empire supposed to aim these droids at moving targets?
AlmightyWalrus wrote: But popping out of hyperspace doesn't actually do anything, right? You're just translating from one plane of existence to another, they're not actually travelling at relativistic speeds.
Plus, how is the Empire supposed to aim these droids at moving targets?
Well, if it worked for Holdo....
And there is a droid brain capable of navigating hyperspace in there; I imagine real-space intercepts would be well within it's capability. There might be issues with hitting ships at warp speed, sure...
Vulcan, I'd accept the Kamikaze Probe Droids if we had examples of them doing such. So far we have the Holdo maneuver as our only source of viability, and that's... problematic at best.
Every on film example we have of hyperspace use shows them moving from a static position to a static position. At best you see some drift as they break through. That's about it, unless you have an example otherwise.
Also, what canon source has Probe droids equipped with hyperdrive?
How would the Imperial ships know where the Federation ships are?
Imperial sensor technology is pretty basic, and does't work in hyperspace, or across much more than planetary orbit distances. It certainly can't see ships travelling at warp speed.
Crazyterran wrote:The Empire fires them out in pods that have hyperdrive, as we see in ESB.
I saw them launched, but they didn't look like they were booming out in hyperdrive. However, every fighter has hyperdrive, so it isn't out of the realm of possibility My thought is that one ISD was launching them in an area, maybe within a cluster of 3-5 star systems, hitting every planet in those systems, and then relaying the data back to higher command.
Just Tony wrote: Vulcan, I'd accept the Kamikaze Probe Droids if we had examples of them doing such. So far we have the Holdo maneuver as our only source of viability, and that's... problematic at best.
Every on film example we have of hyperspace use shows them moving from a static position to a static position. At best you see some drift as they break through. That's about it, unless you have an example otherwise.
Also, what canon source has Probe droids equipped with hyperdrive?
Star Wars Rebels. Granted not the same make and model of Probe Droid and ESB, but there all the same.
Kilkrazy wrote: How would the Imperial ships know where the Federation ships are?
Imperial sensor technology is pretty basic, and does't work in hyperspace, or across much more than planetary orbit distances. It certainly can't see ships travelling at warp speed.
Actually given movie 8 we do have sensor tracking technology that works through hyperspace... Somehow it works, despite not working like that before, but we now have a canon example..
Normally i wouldn't keep bringing it up, but people have already used examples from movie eight.
Actually it was mentioned as a research project in Rogue One. When Jyn is looking for the Death Star Plans she mentions "Hyperspace tracking" as she was going through the projects so that the First Order is just using technology the Empire was getting around to inventing.
Also at the same time, we are using like some several hundred + years of starfleet vs a single timeframe of 30-70 years. It's somewhat understandable given things, but at the same time the Empire was getting around to creating this technology.
In which case the Federation was just about to invent a reliable Transwarp network, rendering the whole "hyperspace vs. warp" deal moot in the first place.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Actually it was mentioned as a research project in Rogue One. When Jyn is looking for the Death Star Plans she mentions "Hyperspace tracking" as she was going through the projects so that the First Order is just using technology the Empire was getting around to inventing.
Also at the same time, we are using like some several hundred + years of starfleet vs a single timeframe of 30-70 years. It's somewhat understandable given things, but at the same time the Empire was getting around to creating this technology.
Honestly - the impression I was getting in Ep 8 was that they had a spy on the rebel ship. (actually makes more sense). Considering Snoke had no idea about the tech (hes the supreme leader - how could he not know about this all new powerful tech?) It's also the most simple explanation which tends to be correct.
Ruby and Finn came to the conclusion they tracked through hyper-drive. It was never confirmed correct?
Tracking and sensors are not the same thing. Tracking relies on following a trail.
Snoke's ship had a special thingy which was able to follow the trail of the rebel ships. It couldn't detect planets, and the New Order ships couldn't detect nearby planets in normal space.
Clearly an Imperial SW ship would not be able to detect a Federation ship in warp, or survey a star system from hyperspace or even from normal space, except at very close range.
Crazyterran wrote:The Empire fires them out in pods that have hyperdrive, as we see in ESB.
I saw them launched, but they didn't look like they were booming out in hyperdrive. However, every fighter has hyperdrive, so it isn't out of the realm of possibility My thought is that one ISD was launching them in an area, maybe within a cluster of 3-5 star systems, hitting every planet in those systems, and then relaying the data back to higher command.
Even close-packed star systems are generally a couple light years apart. Unless you're going to tell me it was a couple years between the launching of the probe droids and them reporting in, they clearly have hyperdrives.
And I agree, the Holdo maneuver is problematic in more ways than one. Best to ignore it, and assume the idea that hyperspace/warp ramming is impossible.
Which leaves those probe droids available for their more important role; recon.
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AlmightyWalrus wrote: In which case the Federation was just about to invent a reliable Transwarp network, rendering the whole "hyperspace vs. warp" deal moot in the first place.
"Just about to" is kind of like "almost shot him'. Close only counts when dealing with explosives, and even then only within the blast radius.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Actually it was mentioned as a research project in Rogue One. When Jyn is looking for the Death Star Plans she mentions "Hyperspace tracking" as she was going through the projects so that the First Order is just using technology the Empire was getting around to inventing.
Also at the same time, we are using like some several hundred + years of starfleet vs a single timeframe of 30-70 years. It's somewhat understandable given things, but at the same time the Empire was getting around to creating this technology.
Honestly - the impression I was getting in Ep 8 was that they had a spy on the rebel ship. (actually makes more sense). Considering Snoke had no idea about the tech (hes the supreme leader - how could he not know about this all new powerful tech?) It's also the most simple explanation which tends to be correct.
Ruby and Finn came to the conclusion they tracked through hyper-drive. It was never confirmed correct?
Good question. It was heavily implied, and Poe/Finn/Rose assumed it to be the case... but I don't recall hearing it explicitly confirmed.
Yes, a spy in the Rebel fleet would have made MUCH more sense. Someone highly placed, to either delay refueling until it was critical, or who could dump fuel with no questions asked. Someone of Vice-Admiral rank, perhaps...
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AlmightyWalrus wrote: "Just about to" in the same way that the Galactic Empire had the hyperspace probe capabilities we're discussing.
Exactly.
Of course, SW ships could always detect ships just before they emerged from hyperspace. We see that in Rogue One just before Vader's ship arrives, and in several places in the Clone Wars. But tracking and targeting were beyond them, yes.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Ah ah ah! Geordi La Forge's ability to reverse engineer tech in 45 minutes Or B'Elanna. Or O'Brien, depending on which show you're watching.
How dare you exclude Scotty!
TNG had a whole episode centered on him being a genius.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Ah ah ah! Geordi La Forge's ability to reverse engineer tech in 45 minutes Or B'Elanna. Or O'Brien, depending on which show you're watching.
How dare you exclude Scotty!
TNG had a whole episode centered on him being a genius.
And cementing his reputation as a miracle worker by telling the captain it'll take twice as long to do a repair as it actually takes...
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Ah ah ah! Geordi La Forge's ability to reverse engineer tech in 45 minutes Or B'Elanna. Or O'Brien, depending on which show you're watching.
How dare you exclude Scotty!
TNG had a whole episode centered on him being a genius.
And cementing his reputation as a miracle worker by telling the captain it'll take twice as long to do a repair as it actually takes...
The Federation is generally more peaceful in mindset, the Empire is warlike in outlook. Watching the dominion war, the Federations fleet is not very big comparatively and its ships are not purpose built for warfare. On the ground we dont get to really see alot of star treks military capacity (mainly because its not about war) so hard to say. Mentality can mean a lot, Starfleet is not inclined to glass planets, even if they could they likely would not. The Empire has no scruples and will gladly commit atrocities that the Federation would not consider. Even their method of defeating the dominion was a hard choice for them. one side is very prepared for total war with in apocolyptic style, the other would prefer negotiation, and would do so in good faith, The Empire would certainly not.
The Empire has never been in a total war footing. Sure they like making atrocities for fun, but their own internal politics makes them very unprepared for total war.
Tyran wrote: The Empire has never been in a total war footing. Sure they like making atrocities for fun, but their own internal politics makes them very unprepared for total war.
All that would take is a few teleconference choking sessions to get in order.
Tyran wrote: The Empire has never been in a total war footing. Sure they like making atrocities for fun, but their own internal politics makes them very unprepared for total war.
Maybe not as the Empire, but all the senior officers and administrators would have served the Republic during the Clone Wars, which WAS a total war footing. And Palpatine managed the Clone Wars from BOTH sides. Not to mention Thrawn, who would relish a challenge like the Federation.
Which brings up a whole different arsenal for the Empire to play with, should they choose. The entire arsenal of the Separatists. Why expend Stormtroopers when we can just land a few million battle droids... and do it again next week if the first wave fails. Given the life expectancy of the average Federation red-shirt...
Not to mention the various varieties of assassin, espionage and saboteur droids the Separatists used. Get a batch of buzz droids on any ship in Starfleet EXCEPT Name Ship of the Series and it's toast.
Besides, the Empire built and manned tens of thousands of Imperial Star Destroyers, complete with troop contingents, during 18 years of PEACETIME. What kind of fleets could it build if it went all-out?
Tyran wrote: The Empire has never been in a total war footing. Sure they like making atrocities for fun, but their own internal politics makes them very unprepared for total war.
Maybe not as the Empire, but all the senior officers and administrators would have served the Republic during the Clone Wars, which WAS a total war footing. And Palpatine managed the Clone Wars from BOTH sides. Not to mention Thrawn, who would relish a challenge like the Federation.
Which brings up a whole different arsenal for the Empire to play with, should they choose. The entire arsenal of the Separatists. Why expend Stormtroopers when we can just land a few million battle droids... and do it again next week if the first wave fails. Given the life expectancy of the average Federation red-shirt...
Not to mention the various varieties of assassin, espionage and saboteur droids the Separatists used. Get a batch of buzz droids on any ship in Starfleet EXCEPT Name Ship of the Series and it's toast.
Besides, the Empire built and manned tens of thousands of Imperial Star Destroyers, complete with troop contingents, during 18 years of PEACETIME. What kind of fleets could it build if it went all-out?
Picard once was quoted as saying 100 ships. that seems ridiculously small considering the dominion war losses. Kirk once claimed 12 ships like the enterpise and made that number sound small and elite. but again none of these ships are by construction warships. While they can all certainly fight, they do all seem multi role.
Maybe not as the Empire, but all the senior officers and administrators would have served the Republic during the Clone Wars, which WAS a total war footing. And Palpatine managed the Clone Wars from BOTH sides. Not to mention Thrawn, who would relish a challenge like the Federation.
No it was not, that entire war was fought with an army and fleet produced by a single planet. That is not a total war footing.
Total war footing is characterized by the entire population, economy and industry being redirected towards military production, with a sizable part of the population being enlisted and quality of life decreasing. The Clone Wars never asked the population of the galaxy that kind of commitment.
The Empire, with an already sizable part of it in open rebellion and only kept down by fear, is not a polity capable of total war.
Tyran wrote: The Empire has never been in a total war footing. Sure they like making atrocities for fun, but their own internal politics makes them very unprepared for total war.
indeed the feds have been in a total war, twice and won them. The Empire can't beat a few amateurs...
Maybe not as the Empire, but all the senior officers and administrators would have served the Republic during the Clone Wars, which WAS a total war footing. And Palpatine managed the Clone Wars from BOTH sides. Not to mention Thrawn, who would relish a challenge like the Federation.
No it was not, that entire war was fought with an army and fleet produced by a single planet. That is not a total war footing.
Total war footing is characterized by the entire population, economy and industry being redirected towards military production, with a sizable part of the population being enlisted and quality of life decreasing. The Clone Wars never asked the population of the galaxy that kind of commitment.
The Empire, with an already sizable part of it in open rebellion and only kept down by fear, is not a polity capable of total war.
The war was fought with armies and fleets made around the galaxy, there are no shipyards orbiting kamino, The armor was Katarn pattern, produced on several worlds, The hive species in the trade federation produced the bulk of the droid forces. colicoid produced the droideka for example while the commerce guild concentrated on heavy destroyers.
at the end of DS9 the combined allied fleet was about 30k ships, this would include romulan, klingon, and ferengi vessels as well as starfleet, considering their general nature and war time losses I would guess that maybe 6-9k of those being federation?
The war was fought with armies and fleets made around the galaxy, there are no shipyards orbiting kamino, The armor was Katarn pattern, produced on several worlds, The hive species in the trade federation produced the bulk of the droid forces. colicoid produced the droideka for example while the commerce guild concentrated on heavy destroyers.
Ok, one planet for the army, another one for the fleet and a few other subsidiaries. Still nowhere close to a total war footing.
The war was fought with armies and fleets made around the galaxy, there are no shipyards orbiting kamino, The armor was Katarn pattern, produced on several worlds, The hive species in the trade federation produced the bulk of the droid forces. colicoid produced the droideka for example while the commerce guild concentrated on heavy destroyers.
Ok, one planet for the army, another one for the fleet and a few other subsidiaries. Still nowhere close to a total war footing.
considering it was all orchestrated by 1 man, I would consider it real close, he built both armies, also the GAR was not just the clone army formed on Kamino, Most of the major planets fielded their own forces to bolster its numbers including (dont laugh) the gungans, wookies, etc...
The war was fought with armies and fleets made around the galaxy, there are no shipyards orbiting kamino, The armor was Katarn pattern, produced on several worlds, The hive species in the trade federation produced the bulk of the droid forces. colicoid produced the droideka for example while the commerce guild concentrated on heavy destroyers.
Ok, one planet for the army, another one for the fleet and a few other subsidiaries. Still nowhere close to a total war footing.
considering it was all orchestrated by 1 man, I would consider it real close, he built both armies, also the GAR was not just the clone army formed on Kamino, Most of the major planets fielded their own forces to bolster its numbers including (dont laugh) the gungans, wookies, etc...
considering it was all orchestrated by 1 man, I would consider it real close, he built both armies, also the GAR was not just the clone army formed on Kamino, Most of the major planets fielded their own forces to bolster its numbers including (dont laugh) the gungans, wookies, etc...
In very small quantities, most of the war was still droids vs clones.
And no, one war orchestrated by 1 man doesn't not make a total war.
The war was fought with armies and fleets made around the galaxy, there are no shipyards orbiting kamino, The armor was Katarn pattern, produced on several worlds, The hive species in the trade federation produced the bulk of the droid forces. colicoid produced the droideka for example while the commerce guild concentrated on heavy destroyers.
Ok, one planet for the army, another one for the fleet and a few other subsidiaries. Still nowhere close to a total war footing.
considering it was all orchestrated by 1 man, I would consider it real close, he built both armies, also the GAR was not just the clone army formed on Kamino, Most of the major planets fielded their own forces to bolster its numbers including (dont laugh) the gungans, wookies, etc...
How large we're these armies?
hard to tell from the cartoons and movies, best estimate of the gungan army on naboo would be several thousand, at Dac (mon cala) maybe 800-1k give or take? hard to say. The wookies we only saw at the wawaat archipeligo, most of kashyyyk is too dangerous to be on ground level, but it gave the impression that the wookies (at least to me) put several hundred to a few thousand into the fight.
there is about this nugget for relative guesswork for the GAR as it was vs ideal organization
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Grand_Army_of_the_Republic/Legends
I would guess due to their nature the hive species could put considerably more in the field than a typical race would. The neimoidians themselves loathed combat (or danger of any kind really) so would not have been well represented. consider (same source, wookieepedia) geonosis population at 100 billion, if even 1/100th of these were warriors, thats a pretty massive force (with I would assume a varied level of armament)
considering it was all orchestrated by 1 man, I would consider it real close, he built both armies, also the GAR was not just the clone army formed on Kamino, Most of the major planets fielded their own forces to bolster its numbers including (dont laugh) the gungans, wookies, etc...
In very small quantities, most of the war was still droids vs clones.
And no, one war orchestrated by 1 man doesn't not make a total war.
Most of what we saw on the cartoons and in the movies were clones vs droids. They implied heavily that was not always the case, particularly on Umbara where the locals fought with little direct support from the CIS. I think you misunderstood or I was not clear on the 1 man, he set it up deliberately to be a total war scenario, his objectives were galaxy spanning, primarily the destruction of the trade federation as a force, the destruction of the jedi order, and the cover to get troops pretty much where he needed them for the master stroke (read Darth Plagueis for better detail than I can provide) recall over 1 million worlds were contested in the clone war. citation of course is again this source (take it for what its worth) http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Grand_Army_of_the_Republic/Legends
Maybe not as the Empire, but all the senior officers and administrators would have served the Republic during the Clone Wars, which WAS a total war footing. And Palpatine managed the Clone Wars from BOTH sides. Not to mention Thrawn, who would relish a challenge like the Federation.
No it was not, that entire war was fought with an army and fleet produced by a single planet. That is not a total war footing.
Total war footing is characterized by the entire population, economy and industry being redirected towards military production, with a sizable part of the population being enlisted and quality of life decreasing. The Clone Wars never asked the population of the galaxy that kind of commitment.
The Empire, with an already sizable part of it in open rebellion and only kept down by fear, is not a polity capable of total war.
The army was cloned on Kamino, yes. KDY produced the captial ships, other systems produced the fighters, the blasters, the armor... And that's not including the Sepratists' construction facilities that Palpatine inherited when he 'won' the war.
It's ridiculous to assume a planet covered in water had enough foundry capacity to build the thousands of ships, fighers, etc. shown in the movies alone, much less the series.
But let's say you're right and the entire Republic military was built in the Kamino system. Just creating Seinar Fleet Systems and Kuat Drive Yards TRIPLES the military production capability available to the Empire right there. And I'm sure there are dozens more systems out there that were militarized in the Empire.
Maybe not as the Empire, but all the senior officers and administrators would have served the Republic during the Clone Wars, which WAS a total war footing. And Palpatine managed the Clone Wars from BOTH sides. Not to mention Thrawn, who would relish a challenge like the Federation.
No it was not, that entire war was fought with an army and fleet produced by a single planet. That is not a total war footing.
Total war footing is characterized by the entire population, economy and industry being redirected towards military production, with a sizable part of the population being enlisted and quality of life decreasing. The Clone Wars never asked the population of the galaxy that kind of commitment.
The Empire, with an already sizable part of it in open rebellion and only kept down by fear, is not a polity capable of total war.
The army was cloned on Kamino, yes. KDY produced the captial ships, other systems produced the fighters, the blasters, the armor...
It's ridiculous to assume a planet covered in water had enough foundry capacity to build the thousands of ships, fighers, etc. shown in the movies alone, much less the series.
Dac (mon cala) had those facilities available, Kamino did not. the Kaminoans were cloners by trade whereas the Mon Cala are spacefarers. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mon_Calamari_Shipyards, not at all implying any actual equipment was produced on Kamino, just pointing that there are massive shipyards in some bizarre locales.
Tyran wrote: The Empire has never been in a total war footing. Sure they like making atrocities for fun, but their own internal politics makes them very unprepared for total war.
indeed the feds have been in a total war, twice and won them. The Empire can't beat a few amateurs...
If Luke hadn't turned proton torpedoes 90 degrees with the Force, those amateurs all would have died on Yavin IV. That is hardly a good basis on which to judge the military might of a galaxy-spanning Empire.
Star Wars has a large number of ship production areas, both military and civilian. Both were capable of building actual warships, as in Star Wars private ownership of even capital class warships is not unheard of, nor particularly rare. Criminal organizations in Star Wars have armies capable of holding ground vs the Empire and the Republic. The Hutts and the Black Sun are criminal cartels, but their military capabilities and control of planets is enough for them to qualify as actual nations in their own right. Weaponry is pretty ubiquitous in the Star Wars universe, and not just personal weaponry.
Its a setting where the equivalent of a mini-van packs light artillery on the "Off the rack" model, listed right next to the cupholders and the CD player.
Grey Templar wrote: Star Wars has a large number of ship production areas, both military and civilian. Both were capable of building actual warships, as in Star Wars private ownership of even capital class warships is not unheard of, nor particularly rare. Criminal organizations in Star Wars have armies capable of holding ground vs the Empire and the Republic. The Hutts and the Black Sun are criminal cartels, but their military capabilities and control of planets is enough for them to qualify as actual nations in their own right. Weaponry is pretty ubiquitous in the Star Wars universe, and not just personal weaponry.
Its a setting where the equivalent of a mini-van packs light artillery on the "Off the rack" model, listed right next to the cupholders and the CD player.
Grey Templar wrote: Star Wars has a large number of ship production areas, both military and civilian. Both were capable of building actual warships, as in Star Wars private ownership of even capital class warships is not unheard of, nor particularly rare. Criminal organizations in Star Wars have armies capable of holding ground vs the Empire and the Republic. The Hutts and the Black Sun are criminal cartels, but their military capabilities and control of planets is enough for them to qualify as actual nations in their own right. Weaponry is pretty ubiquitous in the Star Wars universe, and not just personal weaponry.
Its a setting where the equivalent of a mini-van packs light artillery on the "Off the rack" model, listed right next to the cupholders and the CD player.
The rebels most capable combat ships were repurposed star cruisers
Most of what we saw on the cartoons and in the movies were clones vs droids. They implied heavily that was not always the case, particularly on Umbara where the locals fought with little direct support from the CIS. I think you misunderstood or I was not clear on the 1 man, he set it up deliberately to be a total war scenario, his objectives were galaxy spanning, primarily the destruction of the trade federation as a force, the destruction of the jedi order, and the cover to get troops pretty much where he needed them for the master stroke (read Darth Plagueis for better detail than I can provide) recall over 1 million worlds were contested in the clone war. citation of course is again this source (take it for what its worth) http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Grand_Army_of_the_Republic/Legends
Nothing of that makes it a total war. Plenty of times we see the civilian populations of both sides, and they aren't being mobilized for warfare. Total war is not defined by the objectives, but by the commitment of the warring populations.
Grey Templar wrote: Star Wars has a large number of ship production areas, both military and civilian. Both were capable of building actual warships, as in Star Wars private ownership of even capital class warships is not unheard of, nor particularly rare. Criminal organizations in Star Wars have armies capable of holding ground vs the Empire and the Republic. The Hutts and the Black Sun are criminal cartels, but their military capabilities and control of planets is enough for them to qualify as actual nations in their own right. Weaponry is pretty ubiquitous in the Star Wars universe, and not just personal weaponry.
Its a setting where the equivalent of a mini-van packs light artillery on the "Off the rack" model, listed right next to the cupholders and the CD player.
The rebels most capable combat ships were repurposed star cruisers
The Mon Calamari ships were purpose built warships.
Grey Templar wrote: Star Wars has a large number of ship production areas, both military and civilian. Both were capable of building actual warships, as in Star Wars private ownership of even capital class warships is not unheard of, nor particularly rare. Criminal organizations in Star Wars have armies capable of holding ground vs the Empire and the Republic. The Hutts and the Black Sun are criminal cartels, but their military capabilities and control of planets is enough for them to qualify as actual nations in their own right. Weaponry is pretty ubiquitous in the Star Wars universe, and not just personal weaponry.
Its a setting where the equivalent of a mini-van packs light artillery on the "Off the rack" model, listed right next to the cupholders and the CD player.
The rebels most capable combat ships were repurposed star cruisers
The Mon Calamari ships were purpose built warships.
Grey Templar wrote: Star Wars has a large number of ship production areas, both military and civilian. Both were capable of building actual warships, as in Star Wars private ownership of even capital class warships is not unheard of, nor particularly rare. Criminal organizations in Star Wars have armies capable of holding ground vs the Empire and the Republic. The Hutts and the Black Sun are criminal cartels, but their military capabilities and control of planets is enough for them to qualify as actual nations in their own right. Weaponry is pretty ubiquitous in the Star Wars universe, and not just personal weaponry.
Its a setting where the equivalent of a mini-van packs light artillery on the "Off the rack" model, listed right next to the cupholders and the CD player.
The rebels most capable combat ships were repurposed star cruisers
The Mon Calamari ships were purpose built warships.
Which is fair because Mon Calamari was an Empire owned world.. Given that they were one of the primary shipyards, building warships that weren't going to be taken by the Empire would be a very bad idea.
More like Texas. With fewer wiener dogs and more camels.
SW is the wild west in space. There really aren't much in the way of "deathworlds" in SW. Felucia is close, but it's too "moist".
Aussies don't tend to have light artillery (or any artillery bar restricted #shots selected pieces for "farm work" ) strapped to their persons OR their vehicles unless they are in the military/security or police.
CCW do not exist for civs. Open carry is a thing for the po-po/security/military (civs in open carry will be the focus of attention from them).
Aussies don't tend to have light artillery (or any artillery bar restricted #shots selected pieces for "farm work" ) strapped to their persons OR their vehicles unless they are in the military/security or police.
Pffft, you can't fool me. I've seen those "Mad Max" documentaries...
Aussies don't tend to have light artillery (or any artillery bar restricted #shots selected pieces for "farm work" ) strapped to their persons OR their vehicles unless they are in the military/security or police.
Pffft, you can't fool me. I've seen those "Mad Max" documentaries...
Col Hammer wrote: Empire has a multitude of planetkillers that can only be taken out by snub fighters.
Federation has no snub fighters...?
Federation has fighters, featured prominently in DS9.
And unlike Imperial fighters they'd have FTL, shields, teleportation...
Only basic TIE/ln and Bombers don’t have FTL. Most of the other stuff has hyperdrives and shields. Hyperdrives are also unnecessary when a particular fighter is only meant to operate with capital ship carriers.
Col Hammer wrote: Empire has a multitude of planetkillers that can only be taken out by snub fighters.
Federation has no snub fighters...?
Federation has fighters, featured prominently in DS9.
And unlike Imperial fighters they'd have FTL, shields, teleportation...
Advanced sensors, torpedo tubes for quantum or photons, ablative armour, pulse cannons and onmi directional phasers.
The Star Trek ship guide shows these fighters (mini starships) to be quite formidable, they were designed as a response to hideki class and dominion scarab class attack ships.
I’m kind of curious to how imperial star ships will even be able to his the more nimble Trek ships, don’t they use directed energy plasma cannons and not lasers ?
The Empire can't pilot or shoot anything well. In all of the Star Trek series and movies I don't remember a single time two capital ships accidentally ran into each other. The Empire has done it twice to my memory.
In Star Trek, one ship will know when another is charging Weapons, or attempting to acquire a lock.
Whereas in Star Wars, the most we see is a simple crosshairs type screen, which tells the pilot the optimum time to fire - other than that, they’re firing over open sights.
Why does this matter? Well, those seemingly nippy Federation Fighters will likely be able to computer plot a suitably evasive course once they know the enemy ship is acquiring a weapons lock on them.
Against The Empire? There’s nothing to detect. No sensors, no reading the opposing computer. And they appear positively lumbering compared to TIE craft - TIEs we see doing tight manoeuvres, Federation Fighters more sweeping.
Now of course, that’s not to say Federation Fighters are therefore relatively slow and lumbering, just that TIEs appear inherently more nimble craft. That could be because Federation Fighters have never needed to perform such tight turns and that - just we’ve never seen them have need to do such, not when they’re blowing chunks out of a Capital Ship with only a few Phaser/Disruptor Banks.
Against an Imperial Capital Ship, such as the relatively humble Imperial Class Star Destoyer? There’s a lot firepower to attempt to dodge.
Sure, you can do as the Rebellion did, and mitigate the vast majority by flying your assault craft ‘nap of the land’, as close to the ISD’s superstructure as possible, before popping up to blast away at the chosen target. But you’ve got to get there first...Rebellion included, and were therefore trained by, Clone Wars Veterans. The Federation? No such experience. And as The Battle Of Britain showed us, experience counts for a lot. Doesn’t matter how good your ship is, if your foe is simply a superior pilot, better versed in given strategies.
Imagine the Yamato(ISD) in a battle with an F22 (any federation ship with warp drive and weaponry). This is pretty close to the level of dominance the federation would have over the empire.
Frazzled wrote: Federation fighters just fight at warp speed. Can't see them, can't track them, the SW weapons are literally slower than the Fed fighters move.
Imperial Ships don’t travel at Warp Speed. Ergo, you’d just overshoot them. Every. Single. Time.
At least, so far as I’m aware, there’s no ‘documented’ example of a vessel at Warp attacking a vessel at Impulse?
Frazzled wrote: Federation fighters just fight at warp speed. Can't see them, can't track them, the SW weapons are literally slower than the Fed fighters move.
Imperial Ships don’t travel at Warp Speed. Ergo, you’d just overshoot them. Every. Single. Time.
At least, so far as I’m aware, there’s no ‘documented’ example of a vessel at Warp attacking a vessel at Impulse?
There are multiple actually.
But if we went with no FTL combat then we have more maneuverable tie fighters vs. Fed fighters that target better and fire antimatter bombs. I would give it to the Tie fighters based on rule of cool.
Do the Federation fighters have the 360 degree phaser arcs like the larger ships? I know the phase cannons and all, but don't they also have phaser banks?
Frazzled wrote: Federation fighters just fight at warp speed. Can't see them, can't track them, the SW weapons are literally slower than the Fed fighters move.
Imperial Ships don’t travel at Warp Speed. Ergo, you’d just overshoot them. Every. Single. Time.
At least, so far as I’m aware, there’s no ‘documented’ example of a vessel at Warp attacking a vessel at Impulse?
Col Hammer wrote: Empire has a multitude of planetkillers that can only be taken out by snub fighters.
Federation has no snub fighters...?
Federation has fighters, featured prominently in DS9.
And unlike Imperial fighters they'd have FTL, shields, teleportation...
Advanced sensors, torpedo tubes for quantum or photons, ablative armour, pulse cannons and onmi directional phasers.
The Star Trek ship guide shows these fighters (mini starships) to be quite formidable, they were designed as a response to hideki class and dominion scarab class attack ships.
I’m kind of curious to how imperial star ships will even be able to his the more nimble Trek ships, don’t they use directed energy plasma cannons and not lasers ?
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Do blasters travel at the speed of light or slower?
Kylo's ability to catch them implies slower, but of course Force Users can see the future etc.
Blasters fire bursts of tibanna gas in a plasma state. The shots travel between 80 and 120 mph, based on calculations from film footage. Roughly at arrow speed, but with quite a bit more impact energy and with secondary burns.
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Frazzled wrote: Federation fighters just fight at warp speed. Can't see them, can't track them, the SW weapons are literally slower than the Fed fighters move.
And we only ever 'see' stuff at warp speed firing at sublight targets in the TOS era; they apparently forget how by TNG.
Or the warp speed fighters hit a gravitic anomaly and abruptly drop out of warp right in an ISD's sights, thanks to your friendly neighborhood Interdictor Cruiser...
(And yes, ST warp drives have been affected by various 'gravitic anomalies' in canon.)
Who promptly falls in love with Kirk and helps him save the Enterprise and the Federation. Probably by destroying the Deathstar with a scratch built cannon.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Do blasters travel at the speed of light or slower?
Kylo's ability to catch them implies slower, but of course Force Users can see the future etc.
Blasters definitely do not travel at the speed of light. They would not be visible otherwise. They do not even travel at the speed of sound, or they would not be so easily dodge-able. Every movie has them flying really slowly across the screen, so that the heroic main characters have time to dodge or deflect them, even if they are fired at nearly point blank ranges. It does not matter whether they can see the future. If it travels at the speed of sound, you would not physically be able to move fast enough, regardless of whether you know it is coming or not. At the ranges portrayed in the movies, with the speed of sound, the projectile would hit you in virtually the same instant as it left the barrel. Just like a bullet. You would not see it flying across the screen.
When used by Starfleet from 2374 onward, the ship was equipped with several forward torpedo launchers and at least one phaser bank with two forward emitters. Captain Keogh referred to these vessels as "lightly armed shuttlecrafts," compared to the Dominion ships he expected to face. (DS9: "The Jem'Hadar") In keeping with its heritage, the ship was also used as a testbed and as a way to utilize foreign and salvaged equipment, and various runs of the ship were produced with experimental, improvised, and/or nonstandard weaponry.
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Xenomancers wrote: Imagine the Yamato(ISD) in a battle with an F22 (any federation ship with warp drive and weaponry). This is pretty close to the level of dominance the federation would have over the empire.
I prefer to think more like a 2018 Carrier group (with support like satellites) vs the navies of the world circa 1918. I would expect the carrier group to sink every WWI era ship with no losses.
Crimson Devil wrote: Who promptly falls in love with Kirk and helps him save the Enterprise and the Federation. Probably by destroying the Deathstar with a scratch built cannon.
Just Tony wrote: Do the Federation fighters have the 360 degree phaser arcs like the larger ships? I know the phase cannons and all, but don't they also have phaser banks?
They do in the old technical readout but i didn’t see them used in the series
So basically the ONLY thing the Empire has going for it is one space wizard and hyperspace being potentially faster than warp, though we don't have ANY distances from Star Wars to go by. Not that it'd matter anyway, as a parsec is a measure of distance and it's used in Star Wars as a measure of time.
In the new Han Solo movie parsec is measurement of distance.
The route through the Kessel smog cloud is 20 parsecs long, but Solo takes a short cut through the smoke (only 12 parsecs long).
Automatically Appended Next Post: I don't understand the "Federation ships always fight in warp space" claim.
Every show I've watched, the opposing fleets stand 100-200 meters of each other and move really slowly while firing phasers at each other.
The Super duper evasive maneuvre "Picard Theta one Beta" (or whatever) always makes the ship bank really slowly a few degrees to port or starboard. That maneuvre is enough to make the enemy miss their shots...
Phaser ranges are nothing to write home about. The ships need to be point blank to hit anything.
The torpedoes always seem to be fired in a shotgun spread to be able to hit other ships even when the opposing ships look like they are sitting stand still (relative to each other).
It's the ship that made the Kessel run in less than 12 parsecs. I've outrun Imperial starships. Not the local bulk cruisers, mind you. I mean the big Correlian ships.
CLEARLY meant as a measure of time. The new movie was probably a simple matter of someone with a little OCD saying "Hey, that's a measure of distance. We need to make that make sense."
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, your average Starfleet ship is roughly 150 meters in length, so I'd say your description of close quarters combat is off a bit. In Wrath of Khan the fighting in the initial skirmish was close because Khan was setting up an ambush of sorts. Look at the rest of the battle, the ships are no closer than 5 ship lengths to each other until the Enterprise rises after the Reliant passes over. THEN the shots are happening at about that distance. Other episodes and movies have shots fired at distance as well.
Just Tony wrote: So basically the ONLY thing the Empire has going for it is one space wizard and hyperspace being potentially faster than warp...
Well, the space wizard, space wizard's apprentice and the teams of minor space wizards like Inquisitors (if they can be bothered to get involved) and...
Hyperspace being orders magnitude faster than warp, so that the Empire's strategic edge is insurmountable
Power generation capacities so far in advance of the Federation that whole Federation fleets would be unlikely to put even a small strain on Imperial shielding, let alone being unable to dent the thickly armoured hulls
Weaponry, even on mere transport ships, with destructive power enough to render any Federation target a cloud of debris near instantly. But hey, at least there wouldn't be sparks flying out of the consoles
A numerical advantage so great that on the odd occasion an Enterprise-focused episode saw an Imperial ship get taken out by Treknobabble or Kirk-fu, the Imperial admiralty can just shrug their shoulders and call up more ships
Honestly, quite a bit of Riquende's post there can be disputed simply because we have no idea if the metric used to measure Imperial capability is the same as the metric used to measure Federation capability. It'd be like comparing quantity from one vs mass from the other.
Just Tony wrote: So basically the ONLY thing the Empire has going for it is one space wizard and hyperspace being potentially faster than warp, though we don't have ANY distances from Star Wars to go by. Not that it'd matter anyway, as a parsec is a measure of distance and it's used in Star Wars as a measure of time.
I would also say production capacity.they we're able to build a very large fleet, and moon sized planet killers.
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Col Hammer wrote: Federation are the heroes of Star Trek. Gal.Emp. is the villain of Star Wars.
There is no way for Empire to win in the end. Villains always loses to heroes eventually.
We could compare the Empire to the Dominion. But the Dominion has star Destroyer sized battleships ND their production capacity would be substantially higher.
When used by Starfleet from 2374 onward, the ship was equipped with several forward torpedo launchers and at least one phaser bank with two forward emitters. Captain Keogh referred to these vessels as "lightly armed shuttlecrafts," compared to the Dominion ships he expected to face. (DS9: "The Jem'Hadar") In keeping with its heritage, the ship was also used as a testbed and as a way to utilize foreign and salvaged equipment, and various runs of the ship were produced with experimental, improvised, and/or nonstandard weaponry.
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Xenomancers wrote: Imagine the Yamato(ISD) in a battle with an F22 (any federation ship with warp drive and weaponry). This is pretty close to the level of dominance the federation would have over the empire.
I prefer to think more like a 2018 Carrier group (with support like satellites) vs the navies of the world circa 1918. I would expect the carrier group to sink every WWI era ship with no losses.
Yeah - that would be a larger scale engagement. I would expect that an F-22 with ATS missles or smart bombs could easily sink the Yamato without the Yammy even knowing it was there.
The Super duper evasive maneuvre "Picard Theta one Beta" (or whatever) always makes the ship bank really slowly a few degrees to port or starboard. That maneuvre is enough to make the enemy miss their shots...
In First Contact: Federation ships fly loops around a Borg cube, most of them get chewed up; but The Empire is not The Borg.
Star trek ships have something called an inertial dampner. This device essential makes the ship immune to inertia. Which means they can turn their ship and go whichever direction they want almost instantaneously. Startrek ships capital ships are far more manuverable than starwars capital ships.
Xenomancers wrote: Yeah - that would be a larger scale engagement. I would expect that an F-22 with ATS missles or smart bombs could easily sink the Yamato without the Yammy even knowing it was there.
Funny story. Modern missiles that are carried by fighters aren't actually designed to penetrate armor that thick, since nobody actually makes heavily armored ships anymore. The best we have are bunker busters which are only designed to hit stationary targets and not moving ships.
WW2 era battleship armor would actually be quite effective vs modern anti-ship missiles, which are designed to attack the unarmored ships of today. Battleships weren't retired because they were easily killed, they were retired because Carriers were better at threat projection
The F-22 of course would be in no danger of getting shot down, but it would be surprisingly ineffective vs a WW2 battleship. Battleships were designed to take a beating, and they do it very well.
Xenomancers wrote: Yeah - that would be a larger scale engagement. I would expect that an F-22 with ATS missles or smart bombs could easily sink the Yamato without the Yammy even knowing it was there.
Funny story. Modern missiles that are carried by fighters aren't actually designed to penetrate armor that thick, since nobody actually makes heavily armored ships anymore. The best we have are bunker busters which are only designed to hit stationary targets and not moving ships.
WW2 era battleship armor would actually be quite effective vs modern anti-ship missiles, which are designed to attack the unarmored ships of today. Battleships weren't retired because they were easily killed, they were retired because Carriers were better at threat projection
The F-22 of course would be in no danger of getting shot down, but it would be surprisingly ineffective vs a WW2 battleship. Battleships were designed to take a beating, and they do it very well.
I was thinking it might need a smart bomb / bunker buster. Which if it was on an anti ship mission it would have. I figured our anti ship missiles today might have the punch required though - you are probably right though.
Sadly, modern naval doctrine is basically if your ship gets hit its out of commission. So nobody bothers with armor, and thus its a self-fulfilling prophecy.
An interesting tidbit is that the US navy has never lost a battleship at sea in actual naval combat, and not for lack of effort by the Japanese. The US navy however has lost 5 Carriers in actual combat.
Given the US's sadly low stockpiles, it would be possible that the F-22 might run out of bombs before it successfully sank the Yamato.
Battleships armor is very impressive, it took nearly 40 combined aerial torpedo and bomb hits to sink Musashi and hundreds of planes were sent in to sink Yamato for instance, while Bismark sustained over 400 shell and torpedo hits before sinking.
That said, I imagine modern 2000lb JDAM's being dropped with orders of magnitude more precision through the top deck would make short work of most such vessels rather than slinging shells at armor belts over a full foot thick or dive bombers hoping to land *any* hit.
Depends. Can JDAMs hit a moving target with precision? I don't think they've ever been used against a moving target before. Cause with ship like this taking evasive maneuvers you'd have to correct for a moving target, in addition to having to hit a specific place on the ship to hit a weak spot(which is still going to be heavily armored).
Grey Templar wrote: Depends. Can JDAMs hit a moving target with precision? I don't think they've ever been used against a moving target before. Cause with ship like this taking evasive maneuvers you'd have to correct for a moving target, in addition to having to hit a specific place on the ship to hit a weak spot(which is still going to be heavily armored).
Well I know our guided munitions can be dropped before you even have your target and then redirected with their guide fins to a target. So hitting a moving target seems to be within their abilities. Hitting a ship in a turn would probably be more difficult - at least the first hit from an F-22 would not be in maneuvers though.
The first guided bomb one-shot a battleship. It is not particularly hard to hit a battleship, and I imagine modern bunker busters are much more precise than an experimental bomb with WW2 tech.
Of course, a bunker buster would be a gross overkill even against a battleship.
It is true that current missiles are not designed to sink battleships, but that's because there aren't battleships to sink. No one wants to built a new battleship as that would only be a pretext for someone else to build anti-armor missiles.
And there is another problem, battleships are incredibly easy to cripple, because there are things that are impossible to armor.
For example: both Bismark and Yamato needed a lot of firepower to be sunk, but both were easily crippled.
WW2 era battleship armor would actually be quite effective vs modern anti-ship missiles, which are designed to attack the unarmored ships of today. Battleships weren't retired because they were easily killed, they were retired because Carriers were better at threat projection
And because modern torpedoes don't have to penetrate any armour to kill a ship. They just detonate below the keel, making the ship's own weight break the keel as there's suddenly a pocket of gas below it.
Oh, and nukes. Mostly the threat projection you mentioned at first, followed by stuff that's going to kill any ship, no matter how well armoured. It's just that the big stuff isn't used today because they're of such a nature that it'd have to be a pretty big war to roll them out. When's the last time two decently modern navies actually fought oneanother?
Xenomancers wrote: Yeah - that would be a larger scale engagement. I would expect that an F-22 with ATS missles or smart bombs could easily sink the Yamato without the Yammy even knowing it was there.
Funny story. Modern missiles that are carried by fighters aren't actually designed to penetrate armor that thick, since nobody actually makes heavily armored ships anymore. The best we have are bunker busters which are only designed to hit stationary targets and not moving ships.
WW2 era battleship armor would actually be quite effective vs modern anti-ship missiles, which are designed to attack the unarmored ships of today. Battleships weren't retired because they were easily killed, they were retired because Carriers were better at threat projection
The F-22 of course would be in no danger of getting shot down, but it would be surprisingly ineffective vs a WW2 battleship. Battleships were designed to take a beating, and they do it very well.
Until you put a nuke on it of course. Alternatively if someone actually started making battleships again, the technology to make penetrators us available and could be made in days, if not hours. Antitank missiles would easily penetrate.
Xenomancers wrote: Yeah - that would be a larger scale engagement. I would expect that an F-22 with ATS missles or smart bombs could easily sink the Yamato without the Yammy even knowing it was there.
Funny story. Modern missiles that are carried by fighters aren't actually designed to penetrate armor that thick, since nobody actually makes heavily armored ships anymore. The best we have are bunker busters which are only designed to hit stationary targets and not moving ships.
WW2 era battleship armor would actually be quite effective vs modern anti-ship missiles, which are designed to attack the unarmored ships of today. Battleships weren't retired because they were easily killed, they were retired because Carriers were better at threat projection
The F-22 of course would be in no danger of getting shot down, but it would be surprisingly ineffective vs a WW2 battleship. Battleships were designed to take a beating, and they do it very well.
Until you put a nuke on it of course. Alternatively if someone actually started making battleships again, the technology to make penetrators us available and could be made in days, if not hours. Antitank missiles would easily penetrate.
Alternatively b52 strike for fun and giggles.
In think Yamato could probably shoot down a B52? Anyone got the AA ceiling on Yamato AA guns?
Nope - 5 inch AA max range 31k feet. B52 Max bombing altitude 50k.
Also, your average Starfleet ship is roughly 150 meters in length, so I'd say your description of close quarters combat is off a bit. In Wrath of Khan the fighting in the initial skirmish was close because Khan was setting up an ambush of sorts. Look at the rest of the battle, the ships are no closer than 5 ship lengths to each other until the Enterprise rises after the Reliant passes over. THEN the shots are happening at about that distance. Other episodes and movies have shots fired at distance as well.
Heck, let's call it ten ship lengths. 1500m/ a kilometer and a half. Big deal, an Imperial Star Destroyer is that long.
The smaller star destroyers in the Clone Wars are shown firing at ships little more than dots on the screen they're so far off... and hitting them. Routinely.
And TIE fighters are shown to be pathetic enough that Luke and Han can shoot them down through manually aimed secondary batteries on the Millenium Falcon.
Trying to extrapolate stuff from on-screen performance is iffy at best.
The smaller star destroyers in the Clone Wars are shown firing at ships little more than dots on the screen they're so far off... and hitting them. Routinely.
Yet an Imperial star destroyer can't kill the Falcon when it's right in front of it.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: And TIE fighters are shown to be pathetic enough that Luke and Han can shoot them down through manually aimed secondary batteries on the Millenium Falcon.
Those are the Falcon's primary batteries. It isn't a warship.
Still, the turret guns on the Falcon, and the aiming mechanism, and the turrets on the Death Star and everything, really they are WW2 level technology with a dope old school wire-frame style electronic interface laid on top to make them look skiffy.
Nothing is automated. The fire director helps the gunner to aim his guns by calculating deflection, but he still actually traverses the turret and presses the trigger by hand.
People should ignore the older “battles” when it comes to Trek and Star Wars, the technology wasn’t there to make the battles look good and they had to make do with small budgets.
Look at prequels onwards and force awakens onwards, when they had the budget to make the battles more dynamic.
The smaller star destroyers in the Clone Wars are shown firing at ships little more than dots on the screen they're so far off... and hitting them. Routinely.
Yet an Imperial star destroyer can't kill the Falcon when it's right in front of it.
Would you expect a Missouri class to hit a torpedo boat moving at max speed with it's 16" guns?
ISD-2's were battleships. They were designed to engage other battleships. Had the plot armor of the Falcon had them run into more common cruiser and frigate classes that the Imperium used, it would have been a much different story. Even the CR-90, shown in the opening scene of A New Hope, would have likely wrecked the Falcon in the hands of a less competent pilot, because they were designed to deal with small ships.
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AlmightyWalrus wrote: And TIE fighters are shown to be pathetic enough that Luke and Han can shoot them down through manually aimed secondary batteries on the Millenium Falcon.
Trying to extrapolate stuff from on-screen performance is iffy at best.
The Falcon was illegally modified with top of the line anti-fighter quad laser cannons. Those were designed specifically to destroy intercepting fighters, because that's what a smuggler is most likely going to run into when he's trying to sneak onto a planet.
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Grey Templar wrote: Depends. Can JDAMs hit a moving target with precision? I don't think they've ever been used against a moving target before. Cause with ship like this taking evasive maneuvers you'd have to correct for a moving target, in addition to having to hit a specific place on the ship to hit a weak spot(which is still going to be heavily armored).
The plane also dropped a 1,000-pound guided bomb from 50,000 feet while flying at Mach 1.5 and hit a moving target 24 miles away during a test in New Mexico this summer.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: And TIE fighters are shown to be pathetic enough that Luke and Han can shoot them down through manually aimed secondary batteries on the Millenium Falcon.
Trying to extrapolate stuff from on-screen performance is iffy at best.
The smaller star destroyers in the Clone Wars are shown firing at ships little more than dots on the screen they're so far off... and hitting them. Routinely.
Yet an Imperial star destroyer can't kill the Falcon when it's right in front of it.
Assuming, of course, that killing the Falcon was it's goal instead of capturing it.
Would you expect a Missouri class to hit a torpedo boat moving at max speed with it's 16" guns?
I'm sure an Iowa class couldn't hit a torpedo boat with it's 16" guns, but such vessels have other guns; the large battery of 5" DP guns, the AA battery. And really what we're talking about in a Falcon v. ISD fight is anti-aircraft capacity.
Assuming, of course, that killing the Falcon was it's goal instead of capturing it.
The Empire already blew up a planet, capture doesn't seem like something that was on it's mind.
Maybe it was on Vader's mind? Maybe he sensed a connection with Leia? But that's nerd speculation, not something played out on screen.
Blowing up Alderaan was a demonstration of political will. Capturing Rebel ships scurrying away from a Rebel base is about intelligence, in the military sense of the term.
Would you expect a Missouri class to hit a torpedo boat moving at max speed with it's 16" guns?
I'm sure an Iowa class couldn't hit a torpedo boat with it's 16" guns, but such vessels have other guns; the large battery of 5" DP guns, the AA battery. And really what we're talking about in a Falcon v. ISD fight is anti-aircraft capacity.
Assuming, of course, that killing the Falcon was it's goal instead of capturing it.
The Empire already blew up a planet, capture doesn't seem like something that was on it's mind.
Maybe it was on Vader's mind? Maybe he sensed a connection with Leia? But that's nerd speculation, not something played out on screen.
The ISD-2's had no anti-fighter guns. All they had were capital weapons. Tons of Turbolasers Turrets and Ion Cannons, but no laser cannons. That's what the tie fighter complements were for.
Now if you want to ask the why didn't they launch 24 tie fighters to engage and destroy the Falcon, that would be a better question, but it's very well established that small ships were the achilles heel of the ISD's, because the only defence they had were their mediocre TIE complements..
Blowing up Alderaan was a demonstration of political will. Capturing Rebel ships scurrying away from a Rebel base is about intelligence, in the military sense of the term.
The Empire had no problem destroying transports in the escape from Hoth, over half of them; it wasn't looking for intelligence.
The ISD-2's had no anti-fighter guns. All they had were capital weapons. Tons of Turbolasers Turrets and Ion Cannons, but no laser cannons. That's what the tie fighter complements were for.
But the ISD-2 chasing the Falcon managed to hit it, and the Death Star shot down quite a few fighters with its capital scale guns.
The Death Star, as a space station, has point defense turrets for anti-fighter support. ISDs on the other hand are purpose built to take on other capital ships. At least the early ISDs anyway. Later ISDs had more well rounded armaments, in addition to other ship designs like the Raider which were specifically anti-fighter.
And of course if you have a lot of guns you'll eventually hit something. So its not surprising the Falcon got hit occasionally, though remember they did have explicit orders to capture the Falcon so they were holding back.
Grey Templar wrote: The Death Star, as a space station, has point defense turrets for anti-fighter support. ISDs on the other hand are purpose built to take on other capital ships. At least the early ISDs anyway. Later ISDs had more well rounded armaments, in addition to other ship designs like the Raider which were specifically anti-fighter.
If you Google "turbo laser" the first image return is a turret from the trench run. The point defense guns the Death Star had showed up for half a second in ANH and, going by Wookiepedia, it only had 2,500 of them: as opposed to 15,000 turbo lasers.
Also they're not housed in turrets, they fired out of gun ports.
And of course if you have a lot of guns you'll eventually hit something. So its not surprising the Falcon got hit occasionally, though remember they did have explicit orders to capture the Falcon so they were holding back.
If they were holding back, why weren't they using ion cannons? An ISD-2 has 60 of them.
Had it been any other smuggler crew flying that ship, that ISD would have deployed its wing of Tie Fighters, and destroyed it in a heart beat.
Is that why Lando and Nien Nunb blew up Death Star 2?
djones520 wrote: Yes... the Death Star was firing that the fighters flying in a pretty concentrated area. Not really ducking and weaving in the entirety of space.
So it was using it's 5" DP turbo lasers to knock out the attacking Rebel fighters? I'm cool with that interpretation, but it does mean ISD-2s kind of suck.
dogma wrote: I'm cool with that interpretation, but it does mean ISD-2s kind of suck.
Well lets get one thing straight here. Both Star Trek and Star Wars suck pretty badly on the military competence side of things, in the grand scheme of Sci-fi military-ness. Its just that Star Trek sucks more.
Well lets get one thing straight here. Both Star Trek and Star Wars suck pretty badly on the military competence side of things, in the grand scheme of Sci-fi military-ness. Its just that Star Trek sucks more.
Star Wars builds immense vessels that can be taken out by suicidal fighter pilots, Star Trek builds vessels with auxiliary bridges.
If not the manuverability of Star Fleet ships gives them another edge, above and beyond their obviously superior weaponry.
They don't have on screen maneuvability unless they are fighters, Defiant, Jen hadar or Birds of Prey - the rest pretty much lumber about same as the Imperial ships.
The Imperium can cross the galaxy in months, as opposed to decades. The Imperium can literally afford to just drown the enemy in the blood of their own soldiers.
They don't have on screen maneuvability unless they are fighters, Defiant, Jen hadar or Birds of Prey - the rest pretty much lumber about same as the Imperial ships.
The Sovereign class Enterprise-E flies cover for the Defiant by swooping between it, and a Cube.
They don't have on screen maneuvability unless they are fighters, Defiant, Jen hadar or Birds of Prey - the rest pretty much lumber about same as the Imperial ships.
The Sovereign class Enterprise-E flies cover for the Defiant by swooping between it, and a Cube.
Isn;t the Defiant damaged (?) and lets face it Cubes hardly move in battles on screen
Problem is we want to see ships shooting at other on screen in both franchises so we get that but it means ships are mainly big and slow or small and fast. On screen most ships (in both universes) have issues shooting to the rear and often have fixed guns (esp Kiingons) or turrets.
Isn;t the Defiant damaged (?) and lets face it Cubes hardly move in battles on screen
Problem is we want to see ships shooting at other on screen in both franchises so we get that but it means ships are mainly big and slow or small and fast.
Ships of multiple classes swoop around the Cube in First Contact.
Like a siad the Cube hardly moves, the smaller ships move quite quickly (bit only reletive to the Cub), the Defiant is wrecked, the large cruisers and the Enterprise gracefully move but slowly in looooong loops.
They are probably a bit quicker than as ISD but not hugely.
Both franchise fleets engage at point blank and with slow moving ships for narrative reasons - its the same in any other space show that I can think of from Battle Beyond the Stars to Babylon 5 and Battlestar
Would you expect a Missouri class to hit a torpedo boat moving at max speed with it's 16" guns?
I'm sure an Iowa class couldn't hit a torpedo boat with it's 16" guns, but such vessels have other guns; the large battery of 5" DP guns, the AA battery. And really what we're talking about in a Falcon v. ISD fight is anti-aircraft capacity.
I'm pretty sure it could actually. The 16" guns were more accurate due to the fact that a 16" shell is really heavy compared to a 5" shell and thus won't drift as far off course due to wind etc.
Starfleet ships are not lumbering, they are sleek and nippy, don’t confuse budget constraints with Lore, just look at the warships he feds built, very fast and able to dodge computer assisted targeting, phasers and torpedoes, that’s pretty nimble, the older ships like the galaxy class are less able to dodge around but still better than ISD, you also have targeting software that is able to hit and disable key systems on an enemy ship while it is moving, something like the ISD shield domes would be easy picking.
The only real issue is numbers
Automatically Appended Next Post: Voyager has numerous instances of “turning on a dime” and jinking around
As does the defiant
Sovereign class also have numerous examples of high agility comparedton ISD
Prometheus class with or without MVAM runs circles around an ISD
Akira class are also as nippy as defiant class but that’s not shown in the series, so can be dismissed if you choose
Steamrunner class is a long range warfare ship and escort
Formosa wrote: Starfleet ships are not lumbering, they are sleek and nippy, don’t confuse budget constraints with Lore, just look at the warships he feds built, very fast and able to dodge computer assisted targeting, phasers and torpedoes, that’s pretty nimble, the older ships like the galaxy class are less able to dodge around but still better than ISD, you also have targeting software that is able to hit and disable key systems on an enemy ship while it is moving, something like the ISD shield domes would be easy picking.
The only real issue is numbers
Automatically Appended Next Post: Voyager has numerous instances of “turning on a dime” and jinking around
As does the defiant
Sovereign class also have numerous examples of high agility comparedton ISD
Prometheus class with or without MVAM runs circles around an ISD
Akira class are also as nippy as defiant class but that’s not shown in the series, so can be dismissed if you choose
Steamrunner class is a long range warfare ship and escort
Just going by whats on screen Probably SW lore is also not the same as on screen - didn;t someone mention all the guns that ae never used by them.
Blowing up Alderaan was a demonstration of political will. Capturing Rebel ships scurrying away from a Rebel base is about intelligence, in the military sense of the term.
The Empire had no problem destroying transports in the escape from Hoth, over half of them; it wasn't looking for intelligence.
Show me the scene where this happened. I don't remember seeing a single transport even shot at.
The ISD-2's had no anti-fighter guns. All they had were capital weapons. Tons of Turbolasers Turrets and Ion Cannons, but no laser cannons. That's what the tie fighter complements were for.
But the ISD-2 chasing the Falcon managed to hit it, and the Death Star shot down quite a few fighters with its capital scale guns.
In light of that I've always wondered why everyone claims ISDs had NO antifighter defense. A limited antifighter defense, not hugely effective against shielded targets, sure, but NO defense?
And of course if you have a lot of guns you'll eventually hit something. So its not surprising the Falcon got hit occasionally, though remember they did have explicit orders to capture the Falcon so they were holding back.
If they were holding back, why weren't they using ion cannons? An ISD-2 has 60 of them.
Good question. Apparently the commander of those ISD's went on to work for the New Order.
Show me the scene where this happened. I don't remember seeing a single transport even shot at.
A GR-75 get's body checked by a Star Destroyer coming out of hyperspace in ESB, and Leia was quite worried about transports being shot at.
The GR-75 that got pasted on an ISD happened at Scarif in Rogue One. So yes, an ISD can ram a GR-75 into oblivion. At no time is an ISD shown firing at anything other than the Millennium Falcon in ESB.
And Leia could just have easily been worried about ion cannon fire and ships being captured. It's not like the Rebels were likely to be able to rescue them before they were interrogated and executed.
SF ships can go instantly to FTL, moving light minutes away well out of range of anything Imperial ships have. They can then fly back to hit an ISD's belly, or rear or any other vulnerable area and be gone before the ship can turn or manually traverse its weapons.
So forget debates about weapon power (SF hand weapons can disintegrate buildings, yet for some reason people thing their capital ships are less powerful...), for get even debates about Warp Speed strafing runs, SF's speed, maneuverability and FTL (which they can use in combat) can easily win the day even if weapons are roughly comparable (which they ain't).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and moon-sized planet killers?
Star Fleet can turn nebulas into planets and dead planets into living ones, and they do with a device the size of my coffee table.
Well they certainly have blind spots in their firing arcs. Directly behind their massive engines they have no defense. Also the most vulnerable parts of the ship are there too. The engines and shield generators and also the bridge as well.
We have fighters in RotJ that destroy these sheild generators easily - on a SSD during a battle in which the empire outnumbered the rebels 5:1 - so it's only reasonable that SF ships would not struggle to disable/destroy ISD's.
Xenomancers wrote: Well they certainly have blind spots in their firing arcs. Directly behind their massive engines they have no defense. Also the most vulnerable parts of the ship are there too. The engines and shield generators and also the bridge as well.
We have fighters in RotJ that destroy these sheild generators easily - on a SSD during a battle in which the empire outnumbered the rebels 5:1 - so it's only reasonable that SF ships would not struggle to disable/destroy ISD's.
With the caveat that those fighters are destroying the shield generators from within the shield perimeter itself...
Blowing up Alderaan was a demonstration of political will. Capturing Rebel ships scurrying away from a Rebel base is about intelligence, in the military sense of the term.
The Empire had no problem destroying transports in the escape from Hoth, over half of them; it wasn't looking for intelligence.
Show me the scene where this happened. I don't remember seeing a single transport even shot at.
The ISD-2's had no anti-fighter guns. All they had were capital weapons. Tons of Turbolasers Turrets and Ion Cannons, but no laser cannons. That's what the tie fighter complements were for.
But the ISD-2 chasing the Falcon managed to hit it, and the Death Star shot down quite a few fighters with its capital scale guns.
In light of that I've always wondered why everyone claims ISDs had NO antifighter defense. A limited antifighter defense, not hugely effective against shielded targets, sure, but NO defense?
2. Canon numbers are 60 turbo-lasers, 60 ion cannons, 10 tractor beams. That's it. They had the ability to carry up to 72 tie fighters though. That was their anti-fighter defence. And as referenced before, a turbo-laser has the ability to hit smaller ships on a rare occasion, which is what we saw on those scenes. 1 or 2 hits, out of a lot.
BaconCatBug wrote: The Imperium can cross the galaxy in months, as opposed to decades. The Imperium can literally afford to just drown the enemy in the blood of their own soldiers.
Which, if a 'legion of your best troops' can get defeated by paleolithic teddy bears, is about the only way your armies could actually harm the enemy. If a legion of stormtroopers loses to a tribe of hunter-gatherers with flint-tipped spears, then I don't want to know what they will do if they face an enemy equipped with such advanced technology as swords or even *shudders* black powder.
The Galactic Empire has an army that can't handle even the slightest resistance and a fleet of capital ships that can be taken out with minimal effort (like a single fighter). They certainly look imposing and they have huge numbers, but before any enemy armed with equal or better technology they would just melt away. Which is why the Federation would indeed stomp the Empire. Such is the sad fate of being a movie villain.
Let's not blame the Empire for George Lucas being a bad writer. Lets just pretend, in good faith, that the stormtroopers know which direction to point their guns and all of that stuff with the ewoks was actually an ambush by blood thirsty bearbarians.
Dreadwinter wrote: Let's not blame the Empire for George Lucas being a bad writer. Lets just pretend, in good faith, that the stormtroopers know which direction to point their guns and all of that stuff with the ewoks was actually an ambush by blood thirsty bearbarians.
Dreadwinter wrote: Let's not blame the Empire for George Lucas being a bad writer. Lets just pretend, in good faith, that the stormtroopers know which direction to point their guns and all of that stuff with the ewoks was actually an ambush by blood thirsty bearbarians.
They were going to be wookies anyway.
Kid_Kyoto wrote:The Ewoks were a parallel for the Vietkong, so I can actually respect that.
It shows that putting a conscript army far from home against highly motivated natives defending their families is seldom a good idea.
The problem is that they were armed with nothing but spears and bows, vs armoured stormtroopers carrying blaster rifles. Even if they had used guerilla tactics (which they did not in the movie), even if they had outnumbered the stormtroopers 1000 to 1, even if they had been wookiees, if the stormtroopers had been anywhere near remotely capable, they would have massacred the ewoks. The colonial conflicts of our own history show us that even very small bands of trained soldiers with guns can annihilate massive armies of people armed with spears and bow and arrow without barely even breaking a sweat. Especially if said guns fire at a relatively rapid pace.
Basically, the only way for it to make sense is if the Ewoks would have had firearms of some kind. It doesn't matter how numerous, clever or strong you are. If all you have is a pointed stick, you will never be able to inflict any meaningful damage on a force armed with guns. The only way the Ewoks in the movie manage to win the battle is because the Stormtroopers are just incredibly stupid and run after the Ewoks without any sort of tactics or strategy or without even bothering to stop and actually shoot the little buggers (seriously, I just re-watched the movie last week. They literally barely even fire a single shot at the Ewoks). And that is why I have little hope for the Galactic Empire in a conflict with basically any force, let alone one that can (out)match them in technology like the Federation.
Also, I would like to dispute George Lucas being a bad writer. Does George Lucas write a lot of bad scenes? Yes, he certainly does. The Battle of Endor, Jar Jar Binks and the 'I don't like sand' scene are proof enough of that. But overall, his movies are great. Who does not like the Star Wars movies? Everyone likes Star Wars. That means that even though Lucas did a lot of things wrong, there is even more that he did right.
But they did use ambush tactics - they had traps set up to destroy the ATST. They jumped out of trees and threw giant rocks. Plus Chewbaca commandeered one of the ATST.
Xenomancers wrote: Well they certainly have blind spots in their firing arcs. Directly behind their massive engines they have no defense. Also the most vulnerable parts of the ship are there too. The engines and shield generators and also the bridge as well.
We have fighters in RotJ that destroy these sheild generators easily - on a SSD during a battle in which the empire outnumbered the rebels 5:1 - so it's only reasonable that SF ships would not struggle to disable/destroy ISD's.
With the caveat that those fighters are destroying the shield generators from within the shield perimeter itself...
Seems odd - we see how shield work in RotJ against Mon Cals - Tiefighters shoot them and even crash into them and we see a sheild effect very close to the ship hull. Are sheilds different on imperial ships? Do they make a giant shield bubble that a fighter can fly into?
Xenomancers wrote: Well they certainly have blind spots in their firing arcs. Directly behind their massive engines they have no defense. Also the most vulnerable parts of the ship are there too. The engines and shield generators and also the bridge as well.
We have fighters in RotJ that destroy these sheild generators easily - on a SSD during a battle in which the empire outnumbered the rebels 5:1 - so it's only reasonable that SF ships would not struggle to disable/destroy ISD's.
With the caveat that those fighters are destroying the shield generators from within the shield perimeter itself...
Seems odd - we see how shield work in RotJ against Mon Cals - Tiefighters shoot them and even crash into them and we see a sheild effect very close to the ship hull. Are sheilds different on imperial ships? Do they make a giant shield bubble that a fighter can fly into?
Yes. We see that in RotJ when Ren not just flies his fighter into their shield perimeter, but into their launch bay. We see it in RotS when Anakin and Obi-Wan fly right into General Grevious' ship after disabling the atmosphere screen on their landing bay. We see it again in TPM when little Anni flies his Naboo fighter into the hangar of the Lucrehulk command ship. Rogue One shows Y-Wings fly through an ISD's shield to disable it with ion torpedoes. Later that same ISD is pushed into another ISD with no interaction with it's shields. And finally a GR-75 flies right through an ISD's shields (and goes spat on it's armored hull).
Over and over again, we see ships flying right through shields. I mentioned this earlier, shields in SW are like shield generators in Dune. Slow and steady penetrates the shield. Only big planetary-grade shields like on Scarif and protecting the DSII at Endor can splat a fighter on impact.
That's why they ARMOR ships.
Now. Do we ever see a small ship go splat on a larger ship's shields in Star Trek? Somehow I doubt it, given the Defiant class' usual tactic of flying NOE across a larger ship's hull, and how the common depiction of shields under fire show a large bubble surrounding the generating ship significantly further out...
There's at least one Voyager episode where two shuttlecraft collide and the shields violently repel each other.
Plus, if Star Wars shields don't block fighters, why would they block torpedoes? Star Destroyers would be facing a weapon that completely negates their shields and is at least as powerful as their own turbolasers. If an A-wing ramming into the bridge of an Executor can wreck the entire thing enough that it veers enough off course to ram itself into the Death Star, imagine what a quantum torpedo would do.
I think the battlestar galactica reboot was dismissed too quickly from being a contender. They won because they had god behind them, and god had a plan. I'll put god against star wars and star trek both at the same time. Much plot armour and deus ex machina will be involved, but there you go, it's god. At one point, there may even be a giant glowing hand smushing fleets in one crush.
Xenomancers wrote: Well they certainly have blind spots in their firing arcs. Directly behind their massive engines they have no defense. Also the most vulnerable parts of the ship are there too. The engines and shield generators and also the bridge as well.
We have fighters in RotJ that destroy these sheild generators easily - on a SSD during a battle in which the empire outnumbered the rebels 5:1 - so it's only reasonable that SF ships would not struggle to disable/destroy ISD's.
With the caveat that those fighters are destroying the shield generators from within the shield perimeter itself...
Seems odd - we see how shield work in RotJ against Mon Cals - Tiefighters shoot them and even crash into them and we see a sheild effect very close to the ship hull. Are sheilds different on imperial ships? Do they make a giant shield bubble that a fighter can fly into?
Yes. We see that in RotJ when Ren not just flies his fighter into their shield perimeter, but into their launch bay. We see it in RotS when Anakin and Obi-Wan fly right into General Grevious' ship after disabling the atmosphere screen on their landing bay. We see it again in TPM when little Anni flies his Naboo fighter into the hangar of the Lucrehulk command ship. Rogue One shows Y-Wings fly through an ISD's shield to disable it with ion torpedoes. Later that same ISD is pushed into another ISD with no interaction with it's shields. And finally a GR-75 flies right through an ISD's shields (and goes spat on it's armored hull).
Over and over again, we see ships flying right through shields. I mentioned this earlier, shields in SW are like shield generators in Dune. Slow and steady penetrates the shield. Only big planetary-grade shields like on Scarif and protecting the DSII at Endor can splat a fighter on impact.
That's why they ARMOR ships.
Now. Do we ever see a small ship go splat on a larger ship's shields in Star Trek? Somehow I doubt it, given the Defiant class' usual tactic of flying NOE across a larger ship's hull, and how the common depiction of shields under fire show a large bubble surrounding the generating ship significantly further out...
Jem Hadar ships turn Kamikaze runs into larger capital ships into high art.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: There's at least one Voyager episode where two shuttlecraft collide and the shields violently repel each other.
Plus, if Star Wars shields don't block fighters, why would they block torpedoes? Star Destroyers would be facing a weapon that completely negates their shields and is at least as powerful as their own turbolasers. If an A-wing ramming into the bridge of an Executor can wreck the entire thing enough that it veers enough off course to ram itself into the Death Star, imagine what a quantum torpedo would do.
Torpedoes seem to be much faster than fighters. It could be that simple. Not to mention that the SW universe does have proton torpedoes as weapons, it's not unreasonable to expect that shields would stop such weapons.
The real mystery is why the ion cannon on Hoth went straight through an ISD's shields with no interaction at all...
Jem Hadar ships turn Kamikaze runs into larger capital ships into high art.
And there we go. ST ships are just as vulnerable to snub fighters as SW ships. As if the Defiant hadn't already proved that. Now all the Empire needs is some decent snub fighters...
Well, some shields in Star Wars can stop matter. The field protecting Scarif in Rogue 1 and the Death Star IIs energy shield projected from Yavin both were physical barriers. The Shield Gate in scarif we actually saw, and in RotJ we can infer it from them needing to take down the shield in the first place(as well as the fighters needing to pull up). Cause otherwise they wouldn't have needed to take down the shield at all, they could have passed right through and hit the Death Star immediately.
Star Wars shields can also clearly be selective about what they let through. Every ship with a hanger bay has an energy field that can keep the atmosphere in but allow ships to pass through.
Grey Templar wrote: Well, some shields in Star Wars can stop matter. The field protecting Scarif in Rogue 1 and the Death Star IIs energy shield projected from Yavin both were physical barriers. The Shield Gate in scarif we actually saw, and in RotJ we can infer it from them needing to take down the shield in the first place(as well as the fighters needing to pull up). Cause otherwise they wouldn't have needed to take down the shield at all, they could have passed right through and hit the Death Star immediately.
Star Wars shields can also clearly be selective about what they let through. Every ship with a hanger bay has an energy field that can keep the atmosphere in but allow ships to pass through.
Good point, so how about 'there's lots of kinds of shields'. Deflector fields, force fields, magnetic fields, ray fields, plot armor....
Xenomancers wrote: Well they certainly have blind spots in their firing arcs. Directly behind their massive engines they have no defense. Also the most vulnerable parts of the ship are there too. The engines and shield generators and also the bridge as well.
We have fighters in RotJ that destroy these sheild generators easily - on a SSD during a battle in which the empire outnumbered the rebels 5:1 - so it's only reasonable that SF ships would not struggle to disable/destroy ISD's.
With the caveat that those fighters are destroying the shield generators from within the shield perimeter itself...
Seems odd - we see how shield work in RotJ against Mon Cals - Tiefighters shoot them and even crash into them and we see a sheild effect very close to the ship hull. Are sheilds different on imperial ships? Do they make a giant shield bubble that a fighter can fly into?
Yes. We see that in RotJ when Ren not just flies his fighter into their shield perimeter, but into their launch bay. We see it in RotS when Anakin and Obi-Wan fly right into General Grevious' ship after disabling the atmosphere screen on their landing bay. We see it again in TPM when little Anni flies his Naboo fighter into the hangar of the Lucrehulk command ship. Rogue One shows Y-Wings fly through an ISD's shield to disable it with ion torpedoes. Later that same ISD is pushed into another ISD with no interaction with it's shields. And finally a GR-75 flies right through an ISD's shields (and goes spat on it's armored hull).
Over and over again, we see ships flying right through shields. I mentioned this earlier, shields in SW are like shield generators in Dune. Slow and steady penetrates the shield. Only big planetary-grade shields like on Scarif and protecting the DSII at Endor can splat a fighter on impact.
That's why they ARMOR ships.
Now. Do we ever see a small ship go splat on a larger ship's shields in Star Trek? Somehow I doubt it, given the Defiant class' usual tactic of flying NOE across a larger ship's hull, and how the common depiction of shields under fire show a large bubble surrounding the generating ship significantly further out...
Ships cannot fly through Trek shields without the correct access codes, ro laren attempted it when working as a spy in the marquè, she had to send a message to the ship covertly so her “raider” could pass through the enterprises shields, she was let in.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: There's at least one Voyager episode where two shuttlecraft collide and the shields violently repel each other.
Plus, if Star Wars shields don't block fighters, why would they block torpedoes? Star Destroyers would be facing a weapon that completely negates their shields and is at least as powerful as their own turbolasers. If an A-wing ramming into the bridge of an Executor can wreck the entire thing enough that it veers enough off course to ram itself into the Death Star, imagine what a quantum torpedo would do.
Torpedoes seem to be much faster than fighters. It could be that simple. Not to mention that the SW universe does have proton torpedoes as weapons, it's not unreasonable to expect that shields would stop such weapons.
The real mystery is why the ion cannon on Hoth went straight through an ISD's shields with no interaction at all...
Jem Hadar ships turn Kamikaze runs into larger capital ships into high art.
And there we go. ST ships are just as vulnerable to snub fighters as SW ships. As if the Defiant hadn't already proved that. Now all the Empire needs is some decent snub fighters...
Not really. The jemhadar attacks didn't pass through the Shields, they overpowered them with damage. Shields were proven to stop physical attacks including fighters with multiple instances where they had to turn Shields off to let shuttles through.
I counted the B'rel Bird-of-prey as a Destroyer, and it's 150 meters long. That's more than 50% larger than the Jem'hadar fighter, hence why I counted it as something smaller.
Ships cannot fly through Trek shields without the correct access codes, ro laren attempted it when working as a spy in the marquè, she had to send a message to the ship covertly so her “raider” could pass through the enterprises shields, she was let in.
And yet the Defiant REGULARLY does point-blank strafing runs on larger ships, well inside the bubble of their shield perimeter. So I'd bet what happened in Ensign Ro's case what happens is that it's easily detectable when a ship crosses the shield perimeter, and the message was to allow her to pass through the shields without setting off an alarm.
Ships cannot fly through Trek shields without the correct access codes, ro laren attempted it when working as a spy in the marquè, she had to send a message to the ship covertly so her “raider” could pass through the enterprises shields, she was let in.
And yet the Defiant REGULARLY does point-blank strafing runs on larger ships, well inside the bubble of their shield perimeter. So I'd bet what happened in Ensign Ro's case what happens is that it's easily detectable when a ship crosses the shield perimeter, and the message was to allow her to pass through the shields without setting off an alarm.
Where are you getting that?
From memory the only time I can think of something like you suggest is the mirror universe against the negh-var, other than that I cannot think of a single instance where the defiant passes through shields.
Not all shields are a bubble effect either, some are closer to the hull, usually secondary or tertiary shield generators.
Star Fleet/Star Trek ships have layers of shields, off the top of my head you have:
Navigational deflectors - move debris, radiation etc out of the way. The Enterprise D said that lasers won't even penetrate their navigational deflectors.
Shields - The ships main protection, not always raised, shrug off phasers and antimatter weapons, prevent transporters
Structural Integrity Field - holds the ship together during difficult maneuvers
Internal shields - confine borders, seal breaches, serve as doors in the brig, keep the antimatter from blowing up the ship
So we can figure since it was already midway through a battle the ship's main shields were down allowing the Defiant to get close, but they still had structural integrity and internal shields so the targets could still take damage.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Star Fleet/Star Trek ships have layers of shields, off the top of my head you have:
Navigational deflectors - move debris, radiation etc out of the way. The Enterprise D said that lasers won't even penetrate their navigational deflectors.
Shields - The ships main protection, not always raised, shrug off phasers and antimatter weapons, prevent transporters
Structural Integrity Field - holds the ship together during difficult maneuvers
Internal shields - confine borders, seal breaches, serve as doors in the brig, keep the antimatter from blowing up the ship
So we can figure since it was already midway through a battle the ship's main shields were down allowing the Defiant to get close, but they still had structural integrity and internal shields so the targets could still take damage.
Exactly, federation ships also use backup shield generators in the case of others failing or being overloaded, Klingon ships use much more than this, fed ships also have ablative Armour and hull plating, they are tough little SOBs when they want to make a war ship... fed warships are incredibly scary compared to other races, hence the building of dreadnoughts to close the gap.
IIRC I read somewhere that the shields are supposed to be "form-fitting" in Star Trek but that the SFX wasn't good enough to make it believable so they went with bubbles for the visuals. Gonna see if I can find where I read it.
If you've made a model of a ship, it's pretty simple to duplicate it, enlarge it 10% and make it transparent and sparkly blue, but you're probably doubling the amount of processing time needed to create the total effect.
It would be a lot easier to program a sphere or oblate bubble.
Ships cannot fly through Trek shields without the correct access codes, ro laren attempted it when working as a spy in the marquè, she had to send a message to the ship covertly so her “raider” could pass through the enterprises shields, she was let in.
And yet the Defiant REGULARLY does point-blank strafing runs on larger ships, well inside the bubble of their shield perimeter. So I'd bet what happened in Ensign Ro's case what happens is that it's easily detectable when a ship crosses the shield perimeter, and the message was to allow her to pass through the shields without setting off an alarm.
Where are you getting that?
From memory the only time I can think of something like you suggest is the mirror universe against the negh-var, other than that I cannot think of a single instance where the defiant passes through shields.
Not all shields are a bubble effect either, some are closer to the hull, usually secondary or tertiary shield generators.
Every single time I've seen shields onscreen in Star Trek, it's this big bubble around the ship. Every. Single. Time. It's remarkably similar to the effect Rian Johnson used in TLJ for the shields of the Rebel ships. It's nowhere as close to the hull of the ship as the Defiant usually does those point-blank attack runs.
Secondary and tertiary shields? That's a new one. Do you have a canon reference for that?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Star Fleet/Star Trek ships have layers of shields, off the top of my head you have:
Navigational deflectors - move debris, radiation etc out of the way. The Enterprise D said that lasers won't even penetrate their navigational deflectors.
Shields - The ships main protection, not always raised, shrug off phasers and antimatter weapons, prevent transporters
Structural Integrity Field - holds the ship together during difficult maneuvers
Internal shields - confine borders, seal breaches, serve as doors in the brig, keep the antimatter from blowing up the ship
So we can figure since it was already midway through a battle the ship's main shields were down allowing the Defiant to get close, but they still had structural integrity and internal shields so the targets could still take damage.
Now that I can get behind... now that I've been reminded.
Not a very compelling story, though.
Or B'Elanna. Or O'Brien, depending on which show you're watching.
Probably 
