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Tyran wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:


Maybe not as the Empire, but all the senior officers and administrators would have served the Republic during the Clone Wars, which WAS a total war footing. And Palpatine managed the Clone Wars from BOTH sides. Not to mention Thrawn, who would relish a challenge like the Federation.

No it was not, that entire war was fought with an army and fleet produced by a single planet. That is not a total war footing.

Total war footing is characterized by the entire population, economy and industry being redirected towards military production, with a sizable part of the population being enlisted and quality of life decreasing. The Clone Wars never asked the population of the galaxy that kind of commitment.

The Empire, with an already sizable part of it in open rebellion and only kept down by fear, is not a polity capable of total war.

The war was fought with armies and fleets made around the galaxy, there are no shipyards orbiting kamino, The armor was Katarn pattern, produced on several worlds, The hive species in the trade federation produced the bulk of the droid forces. colicoid produced the droideka for example while the commerce guild concentrated on heavy destroyers.

at the end of DS9 the combined allied fleet was about 30k ships, this would include romulan, klingon, and ferengi vessels as well as starfleet, considering their general nature and war time losses I would guess that maybe 6-9k of those being federation?

 thekingofkings wrote:


The war was fought with armies and fleets made around the galaxy, there are no shipyards orbiting kamino, The armor was Katarn pattern, produced on several worlds, The hive species in the trade federation produced the bulk of the droid forces. colicoid produced the droideka for example while the commerce guild concentrated on heavy destroyers.

Ok, one planet for the army, another one for the fleet and a few other subsidiaries. Still nowhere close to a total war footing.

Tyran wrote:

 thekingofkings wrote:


The war was fought with armies and fleets made around the galaxy, there are no shipyards orbiting kamino, The armor was Katarn pattern, produced on several worlds, The hive species in the trade federation produced the bulk of the droid forces. colicoid produced the droideka for example while the commerce guild concentrated on heavy destroyers.

Ok, one planet for the army, another one for the fleet and a few other subsidiaries. Still nowhere close to a total war footing.

considering it was all orchestrated by 1 man, I would consider it real close, he built both armies, also the GAR was not just the clone army formed on Kamino, Most of the major planets fielded their own forces to bolster its numbers including (dont laugh) the gungans, wookies, etc...

 thekingofkings wrote:

Tyran wrote:

 thekingofkings wrote:


The war was fought with armies and fleets made around the galaxy, there are no shipyards orbiting kamino, The armor was Katarn pattern, produced on several worlds, The hive species in the trade federation produced the bulk of the droid forces. colicoid produced the droideka for example while the commerce guild concentrated on heavy destroyers.

Ok, one planet for the army, another one for the fleet and a few other subsidiaries. Still nowhere close to a total war footing.

considering it was all orchestrated by 1 man, I would consider it real close, he built both armies, also the GAR was not just the clone army formed on Kamino, Most of the major planets fielded their own forces to bolster its numbers including (dont laugh) the gungans, wookies, etc...

How large we're these armies?

 thekingofkings wrote:



considering it was all orchestrated by 1 man, I would consider it real close, he built both armies, also the GAR was not just the clone army formed on Kamino, Most of the major planets fielded their own forces to bolster its numbers including (dont laugh) the gungans, wookies, etc...

In very small quantities, most of the war was still droids vs clones.
And no, one war orchestrated by 1 man doesn't not make a total war.

Submitted to the record

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Submitted to the record

While this is actually some of the best star-wars imagery ever produced. It's not actually cannon. This is a fan film.

 Frazzled wrote:

 thekingofkings wrote:

Tyran wrote:

 thekingofkings wrote:


The war was fought with armies and fleets made around the galaxy, there are no shipyards orbiting kamino, The armor was Katarn pattern, produced on several worlds, The hive species in the trade federation produced the bulk of the droid forces. colicoid produced the droideka for example while the commerce guild concentrated on heavy destroyers.

Ok, one planet for the army, another one for the fleet and a few other subsidiaries. Still nowhere close to a total war footing.

considering it was all orchestrated by 1 man, I would consider it real close, he built both armies, also the GAR was not just the clone army formed on Kamino, Most of the major planets fielded their own forces to bolster its numbers including (dont laugh) the gungans, wookies, etc...

How large we're these armies?

hard to tell from the cartoons and movies, best estimate of the gungan army on naboo would be several thousand, at Dac (mon cala) maybe 800-1k give or take? hard to say. The wookies we only saw at the wawaat archipeligo, most of kashyyyk is too dangerous to be on ground level, but it gave the impression that the wookies (at least to me) put several hundred to a few thousand into the fight.
there is about this nugget for relative guesswork for the GAR as it was vs ideal organization
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Grand_Army_of_the_Republic/Legends

I would guess due to their nature the hive species could put considerably more in the field than a typical race would. The neimoidians themselves loathed combat (or danger of any kind really) so would not have been well represented. consider (same source, wookieepedia) geonosis population at 100 billion, if even 1/100th of these were warriors, thats a pretty massive force (with I would assume a varied level of armament)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyran wrote:

 thekingofkings wrote:



considering it was all orchestrated by 1 man, I would consider it real close, he built both armies, also the GAR was not just the clone army formed on Kamino, Most of the major planets fielded their own forces to bolster its numbers including (dont laugh) the gungans, wookies, etc...

In very small quantities, most of the war was still droids vs clones.
And no, one war orchestrated by 1 man doesn't not make a total war.

Most of what we saw on the cartoons and in the movies were clones vs droids. They implied heavily that was not always the case, particularly on Umbara where the locals fought with little direct support from the CIS. I think you misunderstood or I was not clear on the 1 man, he set it up deliberately to be a total war scenario, his objectives were galaxy spanning, primarily the destruction of the trade federation as a force, the destruction of the jedi order, and the cover to get troops pretty much where he needed them for the master stroke (read Darth Plagueis for better detail than I can provide) recall over 1 million worlds were contested in the clone war. citation of course is again this source (take it for what its worth) http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Grand_Army_of_the_Republic/Legends

Tyran wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:


Maybe not as the Empire, but all the senior officers and administrators would have served the Republic during the Clone Wars, which WAS a total war footing. And Palpatine managed the Clone Wars from BOTH sides. Not to mention Thrawn, who would relish a challenge like the Federation.

No it was not, that entire war was fought with an army and fleet produced by a single planet. That is not a total war footing.

Total war footing is characterized by the entire population, economy and industry being redirected towards military production, with a sizable part of the population being enlisted and quality of life decreasing. The Clone Wars never asked the population of the galaxy that kind of commitment.

The Empire, with an already sizable part of it in open rebellion and only kept down by fear, is not a polity capable of total war.

The army was cloned on Kamino, yes. KDY produced the captial ships, other systems produced the fighters, the blasters, the armor... And that's not including the Sepratists' construction facilities that Palpatine inherited when he 'won' the war.

It's ridiculous to assume a planet covered in water had enough foundry capacity to build the thousands of ships, fighers, etc. shown in the movies alone, much less the series.

But let's say you're right and the entire Republic military was built in the Kamino system. Just creating Seinar Fleet Systems and Kuat Drive Yards TRIPLES the military production capability available to the Empire right there. And I'm sure there are dozens more systems out there that were militarized in the Empire.

 Vulcan wrote:

Tyran wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:


Maybe not as the Empire, but all the senior officers and administrators would have served the Republic during the Clone Wars, which WAS a total war footing. And Palpatine managed the Clone Wars from BOTH sides. Not to mention Thrawn, who would relish a challenge like the Federation.

No it was not, that entire war was fought with an army and fleet produced by a single planet. That is not a total war footing.

Total war footing is characterized by the entire population, economy and industry being redirected towards military production, with a sizable part of the population being enlisted and quality of life decreasing. The Clone Wars never asked the population of the galaxy that kind of commitment.

The Empire, with an already sizable part of it in open rebellion and only kept down by fear, is not a polity capable of total war.

The army was cloned on Kamino, yes. KDY produced the captial ships, other systems produced the fighters, the blasters, the armor...

It's ridiculous to assume a planet covered in water had enough foundry capacity to build the thousands of ships, fighers, etc. shown in the movies alone, much less the series.

Dac (mon cala) had those facilities available, Kamino did not. the Kaminoans were cloners by trade whereas the Mon Cala are spacefarers. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mon_Calamari_Shipyards, not at all implying any actual equipment was produced on Kamino, just pointing that there are massive shipyards in some bizarre locales.

 Frazzled wrote:

Tyran wrote:
The Empire has never been in a total war footing. Sure they like making atrocities for fun, but their own internal politics makes them very unprepared for total war.

indeed the feds have been in a total war, twice and won them. The Empire can't beat a few amateurs...

If Luke hadn't turned proton torpedoes 90 degrees with the Force, those amateurs all would have died on Yavin IV. That is hardly a good basis on which to judge the military might of a galaxy-spanning Empire.

Of course, the rebels did the same thing at Endor.

Star Wars has a large number of ship production areas, both military and civilian. Both were capable of building actual warships, as in Star Wars private ownership of even capital class warships is not unheard of, nor particularly rare. Criminal organizations in Star Wars have armies capable of holding ground vs the Empire and the Republic. The Hutts and the Black Sun are criminal cartels, but their military capabilities and control of planets is enough for them to qualify as actual nations in their own right. Weaponry is pretty ubiquitous in the Star Wars universe, and not just personal weaponry.

Its a setting where the equivalent of a mini-van packs light artillery on the "Off the rack" model, listed right next to the cupholders and the CD player.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Star Wars has a large number of ship production areas, both military and civilian. Both were capable of building actual warships, as in Star Wars private ownership of even capital class warships is not unheard of, nor particularly rare. Criminal organizations in Star Wars have armies capable of holding ground vs the Empire and the Republic. The Hutts and the Black Sun are criminal cartels, but their military capabilities and control of planets is enough for them to qualify as actual nations in their own right. Weaponry is pretty ubiquitous in the Star Wars universe, and not just personal weaponry.

Its a setting where the equivalent of a mini-van packs light artillery on the "Off the rack" model, listed right next to the cupholders and the CD player.

So it's like Australia then ?

 Grey Templar wrote:
Star Wars has a large number of ship production areas, both military and civilian. Both were capable of building actual warships, as in Star Wars private ownership of even capital class warships is not unheard of, nor particularly rare. Criminal organizations in Star Wars have armies capable of holding ground vs the Empire and the Republic. The Hutts and the Black Sun are criminal cartels, but their military capabilities and control of planets is enough for them to qualify as actual nations in their own right. Weaponry is pretty ubiquitous in the Star Wars universe, and not just personal weaponry.

Its a setting where the equivalent of a mini-van packs light artillery on the "Off the rack" model, listed right next to the cupholders and the CD player.

The rebels most capable combat ships were repurposed star cruisers

 thekingofkings wrote:


Most of what we saw on the cartoons and in the movies were clones vs droids. They implied heavily that was not always the case, particularly on Umbara where the locals fought with little direct support from the CIS. I think you misunderstood or I was not clear on the 1 man, he set it up deliberately to be a total war scenario, his objectives were galaxy spanning, primarily the destruction of the trade federation as a force, the destruction of the jedi order, and the cover to get troops pretty much where he needed them for the master stroke (read Darth Plagueis for better detail than I can provide) recall over 1 million worlds were contested in the clone war. citation of course is again this source (take it for what its worth) http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Grand_Army_of_the_Republic/Legends

Nothing of that makes it a total war. Plenty of times we see the civilian populations of both sides, and they aren't being mobilized for warfare. Total war is not defined by the objectives, but by the commitment of the warring populations.

 thekingofkings wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Star Wars has a large number of ship production areas, both military and civilian. Both were capable of building actual warships, as in Star Wars private ownership of even capital class warships is not unheard of, nor particularly rare. Criminal organizations in Star Wars have armies capable of holding ground vs the Empire and the Republic. The Hutts and the Black Sun are criminal cartels, but their military capabilities and control of planets is enough for them to qualify as actual nations in their own right. Weaponry is pretty ubiquitous in the Star Wars universe, and not just personal weaponry.

Its a setting where the equivalent of a mini-van packs light artillery on the "Off the rack" model, listed right next to the cupholders and the CD player.

The rebels most capable combat ships were repurposed star cruisers

The Mon Calamari ships were purpose built warships.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 thekingofkings wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Star Wars has a large number of ship production areas, both military and civilian. Both were capable of building actual warships, as in Star Wars private ownership of even capital class warships is not unheard of, nor particularly rare. Criminal organizations in Star Wars have armies capable of holding ground vs the Empire and the Republic. The Hutts and the Black Sun are criminal cartels, but their military capabilities and control of planets is enough for them to qualify as actual nations in their own right. Weaponry is pretty ubiquitous in the Star Wars universe, and not just personal weaponry.

Its a setting where the equivalent of a mini-van packs light artillery on the "Off the rack" model, listed right next to the cupholders and the CD player.

The rebels most capable combat ships were repurposed star cruisers

The Mon Calamari ships were purpose built warships.

the MC-75 "profundity" was a civilian convert, so were some of the other MC series. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mon_Calamari_Exodus_Fleet

 thekingofkings wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 thekingofkings wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Star Wars has a large number of ship production areas, both military and civilian. Both were capable of building actual warships, as in Star Wars private ownership of even capital class warships is not unheard of, nor particularly rare. Criminal organizations in Star Wars have armies capable of holding ground vs the Empire and the Republic. The Hutts and the Black Sun are criminal cartels, but their military capabilities and control of planets is enough for them to qualify as actual nations in their own right. Weaponry is pretty ubiquitous in the Star Wars universe, and not just personal weaponry.

Its a setting where the equivalent of a mini-van packs light artillery on the "Off the rack" model, listed right next to the cupholders and the CD player.

The rebels most capable combat ships were repurposed star cruisers

The Mon Calamari ships were purpose built warships.

the MC-75 "profundity" was a civilian convert, so were some of the other MC series. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mon_Calamari_Exodus_Fleet

Which is fair because Mon Calamari was an Empire owned world.. Given that they were one of the primary shipyards, building warships that weren't going to be taken by the Empire would be a very bad idea.

 Frazzled wrote:

So it's like Australia then ?

More like Texas. With fewer wiener dogs and more camels.

SW is the wild west in space. There really aren't much in the way of "deathworlds" in SW. Felucia is close, but it's too "moist".

Aussies don't tend to have light artillery (or any artillery bar restricted #shots selected pieces for "farm work" ) strapped to their persons OR their vehicles unless they are in the military/security or police.

CCW do not exist for civs. Open carry is a thing for the po-po/security/military (civs in open carry will be the focus of attention from them).

 chromedog wrote:


Aussies don't tend to have light artillery (or any artillery bar restricted #shots selected pieces for "farm work" ) strapped to their persons OR their vehicles unless they are in the military/security or police.

Pffft, you can't fool me. I've seen those "Mad Max" documentaries...

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 chromedog wrote:


Aussies don't tend to have light artillery (or any artillery bar restricted #shots selected pieces for "farm work" ) strapped to their persons OR their vehicles unless they are in the military/security or police.

Pffft, you can't fool me. I've seen those "Mad Max" documentaries...

Exactly.

Hey! Things have changed a lot since the 1960s!!

Empire has a multitude of planetkillers that can only be taken out by snub fighters.

Federation has no snub fighters...?

You must have missed Insurrection at the very least.

 Col Hammer wrote:
Empire has a multitude of planetkillers that can only be taken out by snub fighters.

Federation has no snub fighters...?

Federation has fighters, featured prominently in DS9.

And unlike Imperial fighters they'd have FTL, shields, teleportation...

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 Col Hammer wrote:
Empire has a multitude of planetkillers that can only be taken out by snub fighters.

Federation has no snub fighters...?

Federation has fighters, featured prominently in DS9.

And unlike Imperial fighters they'd have FTL, shields, teleportation...

Only basic TIE/ln and Bombers don’t have FTL. Most of the other stuff has hyperdrives and shields. Hyperdrives are also unnecessary when a particular fighter is only meant to operate with capital ship carriers.

Most TIEs don't have FTL because the Empire fears desertion. It's the same reason they don't have landing gear.

Which implies a somewhat unreliable military.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Most TIEs don't have FTL because the Empire fears desertion. It's the same reason they don't have landing gear.

Which implies a somewhat unreliable military.

Not surprising. How many rebel pilots got their training in the Imperial Academy?

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 Col Hammer wrote:
Empire has a multitude of planetkillers that can only be taken out by snub fighters.

Federation has no snub fighters...?

Federation has fighters, featured prominently in DS9.

And unlike Imperial fighters they'd have FTL, shields, teleportation...

Advanced sensors, torpedo tubes for quantum or photons, ablative armour, pulse cannons and onmi directional phasers.

The Star Trek ship guide shows these fighters (mini starships) to be quite formidable, they were designed as a response to hideki class and dominion scarab class attack ships.

I’m kind of curious to how imperial star ships will even be able to his the more nimble Trek ships, don’t they use directed energy plasma cannons and not lasers ?