Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
A lot of people are forgetting the Federation's well-documented and proven ability to reverse engineer new technology in an hour (45 minutes when you take out commercials).

So that's how long the Empire has the advantage of FTL mobility

Step 1: Acquire hyperdrive.

Step 2: Hand over to Wesley, Geordi and Data.

Step 3: Picard speech on morality and/or Shakespeare.

Step 4: Party in hyperspace, BYORA!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Plus - the locale of the starwars galaxy is stated to be "far far away" so I am going to assume this means - compared to other galaxies compared to our own.

Yeah, but like, there's times when my TV remote is just over there, slightly beyond my fingertips, and that's Far Far Away.

Very true - so close - but yet so far!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Ah ah ah! Geordi La Forge's ability to reverse engineer tech in 45 minutes Or B'Elanna. Or O'Brien, depending on which show you're watching.

Everyone else in Star Trek? They're incompetent. Every time they find another Federation ship adrift, it's not far off

'So what happened, Relevant Chief Engineer'
'Well Captain, it appears they found this alien Toaster. And then all took turns shoving their John Thomas' in it, and switching it on'
'When you say all of them?'
'All the crew, Captain. Even the women. Seems they actually replicated diddlers for the women, just so they could shove them in the alien Toaster'
'Weirdos'

SCIENCE!

It might as well be like, all the way over there, man!

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
A lot of people are forgetting the Federation's well-documented and proven ability to reverse engineer new technology in an hour (45 minutes when you take out commercials).

So that's how long the Empire has the advantage of FTL mobility

That's 45 minutes after the main characters show up to Deus Ex Machina their way out of their problems, thank you. The rest of Star Fleet has shown no such capability.

If we are going to base this discussion on 'Who has the better plot ability to get out of circumstances they have no hope of surviving much less winning', then sure, we can go with Star Trek all year long.

But as a serious appraisal of relative military power it falls a bit flat, don't you think? Especially if the Empire's opening move is to slam a couple dozen probe droids at hyperspace speeds into every ship in Star Fleet.

But popping out of hyperspace doesn't actually do anything, right? You're just translating from one plane of existence to another, they're not actually travelling at relativistic speeds.

Plus, how is the Empire supposed to aim these droids at moving targets?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
But popping out of hyperspace doesn't actually do anything, right? You're just translating from one plane of existence to another, they're not actually travelling at relativistic speeds.

Plus, how is the Empire supposed to aim these droids at moving targets?

Well, if it worked for Holdo....

And there is a droid brain capable of navigating hyperspace in there; I imagine real-space intercepts would be well within it's capability. There might be issues with hitting ships at warp speed, sure...

But they all drop out of warp eventually.

Vulcan, I'd accept the Kamikaze Probe Droids if we had examples of them doing such. So far we have the Holdo maneuver as our only source of viability, and that's... problematic at best.

Every on film example we have of hyperspace use shows them moving from a static position to a static position. At best you see some drift as they break through. That's about it, unless you have an example otherwise.

Also, what canon source has Probe droids equipped with hyperdrive?

The Empire fires them out in pods that have hyperdrive, as we see in ESB.

How would the Imperial ships know where the Federation ships are?

Imperial sensor technology is pretty basic, and does't work in hyperspace, or across much more than planetary orbit distances. It certainly can't see ships travelling at warp speed.

Crazyterran wrote:The Empire fires them out in pods that have hyperdrive, as we see in ESB.

I saw them launched, but they didn't look like they were booming out in hyperdrive. However, every fighter has hyperdrive, so it isn't out of the realm of possibility My thought is that one ISD was launching them in an area, maybe within a cluster of 3-5 star systems, hitting every planet in those systems, and then relaying the data back to higher command.

 Just Tony wrote:
Vulcan, I'd accept the Kamikaze Probe Droids if we had examples of them doing such. So far we have the Holdo maneuver as our only source of viability, and that's... problematic at best.

Every on film example we have of hyperspace use shows them moving from a static position to a static position. At best you see some drift as they break through. That's about it, unless you have an example otherwise.

Also, what canon source has Probe droids equipped with hyperdrive?

Star Wars Rebels. Granted not the same make and model of Probe Droid and ESB, but there all the same.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
How would the Imperial ships know where the Federation ships are?

Imperial sensor technology is pretty basic, and does't work in hyperspace, or across much more than planetary orbit distances. It certainly can't see ships travelling at warp speed.

Actually given movie 8 we do have sensor tracking technology that works through hyperspace... Somehow it works, despite not working like that before, but we now have a canon example..

Normally i wouldn't keep bringing it up, but people have already used examples from movie eight.

That technology is noted to be new. The Empire did not have that ability.

As for hyperspace ramming, SW is basically stuck in WW1/WW2 levels of doctrine, so they are not the imaginative type,

Actually it was mentioned as a research project in Rogue One. When Jyn is looking for the Death Star Plans she mentions "Hyperspace tracking" as she was going through the projects so that the First Order is just using technology the Empire was getting around to inventing.

Also at the same time, we are using like some several hundred + years of starfleet vs a single timeframe of 30-70 years. It's somewhat understandable given things, but at the same time the Empire was getting around to creating this technology.

In which case the Federation was just about to invent a reliable Transwarp network, rendering the whole "hyperspace vs. warp" deal moot in the first place.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Actually it was mentioned as a research project in Rogue One. When Jyn is looking for the Death Star Plans she mentions "Hyperspace tracking" as she was going through the projects so that the First Order is just using technology the Empire was getting around to inventing.

Also at the same time, we are using like some several hundred + years of starfleet vs a single timeframe of 30-70 years. It's somewhat understandable given things, but at the same time the Empire was getting around to creating this technology.

Honestly - the impression I was getting in Ep 8 was that they had a spy on the rebel ship. (actually makes more sense). Considering Snoke had no idea about the tech (hes the supreme leader - how could he not know about this all new powerful tech?) It's also the most simple explanation which tends to be correct.

Ruby and Finn came to the conclusion they tracked through hyper-drive. It was never confirmed correct?

Tracking and sensors are not the same thing. Tracking relies on following a trail.

Snoke's ship had a special thingy which was able to follow the trail of the rebel ships. It couldn't detect planets, and the New Order ships couldn't detect nearby planets in normal space.

Clearly an Imperial SW ship would not be able to detect a Federation ship in warp, or survey a star system from hyperspace or even from normal space, except at very close range.

 Just Tony wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:The Empire fires them out in pods that have hyperdrive, as we see in ESB.

I saw them launched, but they didn't look like they were booming out in hyperdrive. However, every fighter has hyperdrive, so it isn't out of the realm of possibility My thought is that one ISD was launching them in an area, maybe within a cluster of 3-5 star systems, hitting every planet in those systems, and then relaying the data back to higher command.

Even close-packed star systems are generally a couple light years apart. Unless you're going to tell me it was a couple years between the launching of the probe droids and them reporting in, they clearly have hyperdrives.

And I agree, the Holdo maneuver is problematic in more ways than one. Best to ignore it, and assume the idea that hyperspace/warp ramming is impossible.

Which leaves those probe droids available for their more important role; recon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
In which case the Federation was just about to invent a reliable Transwarp network, rendering the whole "hyperspace vs. warp" deal moot in the first place.

"Just about to" is kind of like "almost shot him'. Close only counts when dealing with explosives, and even then only within the blast radius.

"Just about to" in the same way that the Galactic Empire had the hyperspace probe capabilities we're discussing.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Actually it was mentioned as a research project in Rogue One. When Jyn is looking for the Death Star Plans she mentions "Hyperspace tracking" as she was going through the projects so that the First Order is just using technology the Empire was getting around to inventing.

Also at the same time, we are using like some several hundred + years of starfleet vs a single timeframe of 30-70 years. It's somewhat understandable given things, but at the same time the Empire was getting around to creating this technology.

Honestly - the impression I was getting in Ep 8 was that they had a spy on the rebel ship. (actually makes more sense). Considering Snoke had no idea about the tech (hes the supreme leader - how could he not know about this all new powerful tech?) It's also the most simple explanation which tends to be correct.

Ruby and Finn came to the conclusion they tracked through hyper-drive. It was never confirmed correct?

Good question. It was heavily implied, and Poe/Finn/Rose assumed it to be the case... but I don't recall hearing it explicitly confirmed.

Yes, a spy in the Rebel fleet would have made MUCH more sense. Someone highly placed, to either delay refueling until it was critical, or who could dump fuel with no questions asked. Someone of Vice-Admiral rank, perhaps...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
"Just about to" in the same way that the Galactic Empire had the hyperspace probe capabilities we're discussing.

Exactly.

Of course, SW ships could always detect ships just before they emerged from hyperspace. We see that in Rogue One just before Vader's ship arrives, and in several places in the Clone Wars. But tracking and targeting were beyond them, yes.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Ah ah ah! Geordi La Forge's ability to reverse engineer tech in 45 minutes Or B'Elanna. Or O'Brien, depending on which show you're watching.

How dare you exclude Scotty!

TNG had a whole episode centered on him being a genius.

 dogma wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Ah ah ah! Geordi La Forge's ability to reverse engineer tech in 45 minutes Or B'Elanna. Or O'Brien, depending on which show you're watching.

How dare you exclude Scotty!

TNG had a whole episode centered on him being a genius.

And cementing his reputation as a miracle worker by telling the captain it'll take twice as long to do a repair as it actually takes...

 Vulcan wrote:

 dogma wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Ah ah ah! Geordi La Forge's ability to reverse engineer tech in 45 minutes Or B'Elanna. Or O'Brien, depending on which show you're watching.

How dare you exclude Scotty!

TNG had a whole episode centered on him being a genius.

And cementing his reputation as a miracle worker by telling the captain it'll take twice as long to do a repair as it actually takes...

That's just prudent time management.

The Federation is generally more peaceful in mindset, the Empire is warlike in outlook. Watching the dominion war, the Federations fleet is not very big comparatively and its ships are not purpose built for warfare. On the ground we dont get to really see alot of star treks military capacity (mainly because its not about war) so hard to say. Mentality can mean a lot, Starfleet is not inclined to glass planets, even if they could they likely would not. The Empire has no scruples and will gladly commit atrocities that the Federation would not consider. Even their method of defeating the dominion was a hard choice for them. one side is very prepared for total war with in apocolyptic style, the other would prefer negotiation, and would do so in good faith, The Empire would certainly not.

The Empire has never been in a total war footing. Sure they like making atrocities for fun, but their own internal politics makes them very unprepared for total war.

Tyran wrote:
The Empire has never been in a total war footing. Sure they like making atrocities for fun, but their own internal politics makes them very unprepared for total war.

All that would take is a few teleconference choking sessions to get in order.

Tyran wrote:
The Empire has never been in a total war footing. Sure they like making atrocities for fun, but their own internal politics makes them very unprepared for total war.

Maybe not as the Empire, but all the senior officers and administrators would have served the Republic during the Clone Wars, which WAS a total war footing. And Palpatine managed the Clone Wars from BOTH sides. Not to mention Thrawn, who would relish a challenge like the Federation.

Which brings up a whole different arsenal for the Empire to play with, should they choose. The entire arsenal of the Separatists. Why expend Stormtroopers when we can just land a few million battle droids... and do it again next week if the first wave fails. Given the life expectancy of the average Federation red-shirt...

Not to mention the various varieties of assassin, espionage and saboteur droids the Separatists used. Get a batch of buzz droids on any ship in Starfleet EXCEPT Name Ship of the Series and it's toast.

Besides, the Empire built and manned tens of thousands of Imperial Star Destroyers, complete with troop contingents, during 18 years of PEACETIME. What kind of fleets could it build if it went all-out?

 Vulcan wrote:

Tyran wrote:
The Empire has never been in a total war footing. Sure they like making atrocities for fun, but their own internal politics makes them very unprepared for total war.

Maybe not as the Empire, but all the senior officers and administrators would have served the Republic during the Clone Wars, which WAS a total war footing. And Palpatine managed the Clone Wars from BOTH sides. Not to mention Thrawn, who would relish a challenge like the Federation.

Which brings up a whole different arsenal for the Empire to play with, should they choose. The entire arsenal of the Separatists. Why expend Stormtroopers when we can just land a few million battle droids... and do it again next week if the first wave fails. Given the life expectancy of the average Federation red-shirt...

Not to mention the various varieties of assassin, espionage and saboteur droids the Separatists used. Get a batch of buzz droids on any ship in Starfleet EXCEPT Name Ship of the Series and it's toast.

Besides, the Empire built and manned tens of thousands of Imperial Star Destroyers, complete with troop contingents, during 18 years of PEACETIME. What kind of fleets could it build if it went all-out?

Picard once was quoted as saying 100 ships. that seems ridiculously small considering the dominion war losses. Kirk once claimed 12 ships like the enterpise and made that number sound small and elite. but again none of these ships are by construction warships. While they can all certainly fight, they do all seem multi role.

 Vulcan wrote:


Maybe not as the Empire, but all the senior officers and administrators would have served the Republic during the Clone Wars, which WAS a total war footing. And Palpatine managed the Clone Wars from BOTH sides. Not to mention Thrawn, who would relish a challenge like the Federation.

No it was not, that entire war was fought with an army and fleet produced by a single planet. That is not a total war footing.

Total war footing is characterized by the entire population, economy and industry being redirected towards military production, with a sizable part of the population being enlisted and quality of life decreasing. The Clone Wars never asked the population of the galaxy that kind of commitment.

The Empire, with an already sizable part of it in open rebellion and only kept down by fear, is not a polity capable of total war.

Tyran wrote:
The Empire has never been in a total war footing. Sure they like making atrocities for fun, but their own internal politics makes them very unprepared for total war.

indeed the feds have been in a total war, twice and won them. The Empire can't beat a few amateurs...