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Post by: Xenomancers
Yeah - nullzone is not viable really. Deathhex on the other hand is amazing.
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Post by: Bharring
I don't think there's any real debate about whether Doom is really good, or whether Null Zone aint.
The point was a technical one. Specific to the actual scaling across points. The only thing that might sound argumentative is that most people assume "scales exponentially" means impactful. It does not. There is a point that it would become more impactful than less-than-exponential growth items would, but it can be arbitrarily high.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is why SM threads never end. Even pointing out technical scales and definitions, where no argument is made, is taken as providing a crazy claim that was never made.
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Post by: Martel732
Why point that out, then?
It sure sounds like you are talking up a gak psychic power.
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Post by: Xenomancers
6" range is pathetic man. Can't be used to turn 1 takes away most of it's potential scaling. Having to sacrifice a unit with a low probability of success to pull it off takes away the rest.
I would 100% trade it for death hex in an instant.
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Post by: Primark G
 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote: Primark G wrote:Can't wait to see what the haters have to say about this GT win.
The list literally went out of its way to not take any traditional Space Marine units other than its bare minimum cheapest possible troops tax and 2 HQs because Space Marines are so bad.
And you never see any CSM in CSM armies either.
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Post by: Bharring
"Why point that out, then?
It sure sounds like you are talking up a gak psychic power."
Because there was a very incorrect claim. Doom (while being one of the best powers in the game) is *not* an aura. I wanted to correct that.
Also, the nature of scaling was being used very incorrectly. I figured it would be useful to correct that.
If I started saying Tac Marines were S/T 5 2+, and seemed to actually believe that, wouldn't you point out that they aren't?
Not every statement is either for/against whatever your cause du jour is. Many statements are made simply to clarify, specify, or further illuminate things so that arguments can be made with more solid grounding.
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Post by: Primark G
 Xenomancers wrote:Yeah - nullzone is not viable really. Deathhex on the other hand is amazing.
Jump pack anyone? But seriously SM tend to run gun lines... armies like Nidz and Chaos will be up in your grill real quick... 6" range is more than enough versus these armies. Automatically Appended Next Post: Sunny Side Up wrote: Primark G wrote:
It is just another unit for most armies - it is not more advantageous for SM armies.
Not taking away from the win, but of course any buff/aura/bubble/things like Doom etc... grow somewhat exponentially with higher points, not linear. More stuff that can tap into an aura effect that has a static point value attached to it means you get more "value" out of it without having to pay extra points for the aura effect (e.g. the 400 for Guilliman) in the first place.
Guilliman with one guy next to him with a Lascannon in a 500 point game is not terribly efficient. You're probably better of dropping Guilliman and replacing it with 400 points of Lascannons (or other shooty stuff).
Guilliman with 500 guys with Lascannons next to him in a 5000 point game is every Guilliman-point worth in gold and Guilliman himself probably pulling the "worth" of another 2000-3000 points worth of firepower compared to a non-re-roll list.
Same reason that fixed- CP cost stratagems or psychic powers aren't well suited to a "competitive" game. Tide of Traitors on 40 Cultists is 4-times as efficient as Tide of Traitors on 10 Cultists. For a truly competitive tournament game, it would need to cost 4 times the resources (e.g. CP in this latter case, variable point costs depending on how many units benefit from it in the case of re-roll characters, etc.. ).
I think you are making too much of a big deal out of 200 points. Other armies have buff auras too... if the SM army goes second that 200 point unit could be dead just like that too.
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Post by: Xenomancers
Primark G wrote: Xenomancers wrote:Yeah - nullzone is not viable really. Deathhex on the other hand is amazing.
Jump pack anyone? But seriously SM tend to run gun lines... armies like Nidz and Chaos will be up in your grill real quick... 6" range is more than enough versus these armies.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sunny Side Up wrote: Primark G wrote:
It is just another unit for most armies - it is not more advantageous for SM armies.
Not taking away from the win, but of course any buff/aura/bubble/things like Doom etc... grow somewhat exponentially with higher points, not linear. More stuff that can tap into an aura effect that has a static point value attached to it means you get more "value" out of it without having to pay extra points for the aura effect (e.g. the 400 for Guilliman) in the first place.
Guilliman with one guy next to him with a Lascannon in a 500 point game is not terribly efficient. You're probably better of dropping Guilliman and replacing it with 400 points of Lascannons (or other shooty stuff).
Guilliman with 500 guys with Lascannons next to him in a 5000 point game is every Guilliman-point worth in gold and Guilliman himself probably pulling the "worth" of another 2000-3000 points worth of firepower compared to a non-re-roll list.
Same reason that fixed- CP cost stratagems or psychic powers aren't well suited to a "competitive" game. Tide of Traitors on 40 Cultists is 4-times as efficient as Tide of Traitors on 10 Cultists. For a truly competitive tournament game, it would need to cost 4 times the resources (e.g. CP in this latter case, variable point costs depending on how many units benefit from it in the case of re-roll characters, etc.. ).
I think you are making too much of a big deal out of 200 points. Other armies have buff auras too... if the SM army goes second that 200 point unit could be dead just like that too.
If you are counting on opponents to just walk into your kill box - this says a lot about the players you play against.
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Post by: Insectum7
Raw SM gunline can work pretty well up to a point, but at that point the scales seem to shift and shock-assaults and hard alphas can pull it apart again. Risky build, imo.
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Post by: Median Trace
So now we are using one data point to “prove” that Ultram... I mean Space Marines are totally fine?
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Post by: Insectum7
Doesn't matter. The whole setup is sometimes akin to an Eldar player saying the Eldar codex is broken because Dire Avengers lose to Guardsmen in a point for point, static firefight.
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Post by: Bharring
No. Just as an example that the Space Marine codex is not autolose in every case.
Because one counterexample disproves exteremist claims, but doesn't move the needle much on more sophisticated models.
I think this thread has moved on to arguing either that Null Zone isn't better than Doom, or that they didn't claim that Null Zone is better than doom. Oddly enough, not much arguing that either of those claims is wrong, but it's already been a page of that crap.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
(
JCD -
Sorry, your comments got lost in the noise.
Certainly, Doom does scale somewhat based on firepower. In a 200pt game, Doom doesn't have as much impact because there isn't as much to hit the target with, compared to a 5kpt game.
I'd argue it caps out fairly quickly, though, because shooting tends to be very efficient in this game. Less so vs a Knight list than an MSU list, of course, though.
The exact caps are certainly debateable. But there is some scaling there, up to a soft cap. However, that's polynomial at best.)
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Post by: Martel732
No, they're not autolose. But relying on the bobby G gimmick is lame beyond words.
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Post by: Primark G
Martel732 wrote:No, they're not autolose. But relying on the bobby G gimmick is lame beyond words.
This is one of the very times I agree with you but a win is still a win. Automatically Appended Next Post: Xenomancers wrote: Primark G wrote: Xenomancers wrote:Yeah - nullzone is not viable really. Deathhex on the other hand is amazing.
Jump pack anyone? But seriously SM tend to run gun lines... armies like Nidz and Chaos will be up in your grill real quick... 6" range is more than enough versus these armies.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sunny Side Up wrote: Primark G wrote:
It is just another unit for most armies - it is not more advantageous for SM armies.
Not taking away from the win, but of course any buff/aura/bubble/things like Doom etc... grow somewhat exponentially with higher points, not linear. More stuff that can tap into an aura effect that has a static point value attached to it means you get more "value" out of it without having to pay extra points for the aura effect (e.g. the 400 for Guilliman) in the first place.
Guilliman with one guy next to him with a Lascannon in a 500 point game is not terribly efficient. You're probably better of dropping Guilliman and replacing it with 400 points of Lascannons (or other shooty stuff).
Guilliman with 500 guys with Lascannons next to him in a 5000 point game is every Guilliman-point worth in gold and Guilliman himself probably pulling the "worth" of another 2000-3000 points worth of firepower compared to a non-re-roll list.
Same reason that fixed- CP cost stratagems or psychic powers aren't well suited to a "competitive" game. Tide of Traitors on 40 Cultists is 4-times as efficient as Tide of Traitors on 10 Cultists. For a truly competitive tournament game, it would need to cost 4 times the resources (e.g. CP in this latter case, variable point costs depending on how many units benefit from it in the case of re-roll characters, etc.. ).
I think you are making too much of a big deal out of 200 points. Other armies have buff auras too... if the SM army goes second that 200 point unit could be dead just like that too.
If you are counting on opponents to just walk into your kill box - this says a lot about the players you play against.
Sometimes they really don't have a choice.
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Post by: Martel732
Actually, multiple wins were necessary.
It's not impossible for me to imagine a line up of lists weak vs double repulsor/bobby G. They will get +1 to go first every time for sure. If people are building for Xenos, T8 3+ is not terrible.
It's in his quotes:
"I have strong wins against a death guard list, plague burst, and fidget spinners, two eldar/ deldar matchups,soft vehicles and mass foot troops. Any horde foot unit based lists would be a great match-up for this list."
BTW, lists like this is why I really like the errant as a single knight for my BA.
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Post by: Xenomancers
Martel732 wrote:Actually, multiple wins were necessary.
It's not impossible for me to imagine a line up of lists weak vs double repulsor/bobby G. They will get +1 to go first every time for sure. If people are building for Xenos, T8 3+ is not terrible.
It's in his quotes:
"I have strong wins against a death guard list, plague burst, and fidget spinners, two eldar/ deldar matchups,soft vehicles and mass foot troops. Any horde foot unit based lists would be a great match-up for this list."
BTW, lists like this is why I really like the errant as a single knight for my BA.
Why not a crusader? Or a Castellan? A Castellan kills 2 repulsors in 1 turn...it's discussing.
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Post by: Primark G
You have always claimed DE is auto win versus the power armor.
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Post by: Martel732
That wasn't a power armor list, really. It was a mech list. I bet those hellblasters did nothing vs Eldar/ De.
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Post by: Xenomancers
It really should be noted. Going second is an obstacle that any list has to overcome. Even DE. The thing is - Going second is much easier to win with DE than it is with space marines with Gman. So winning 5 games at a tournament is a lot easier for DE where winning 5 in a row for space marines is next to impossible. They should lose any game going second vs an optimized dark eldar list.
DE can deploy anywhere on the table...behind LOS blocking - scattered all over the place and they are still in possition to strike.
Space marine units have to deploy close to the front and mostly because they are slow and have a lot of short range fire power.
Gman and repulsors and storm raven with hellblasters and ancient banner is what I have been running all edition for my Ultras. It can win games if it goes first. It gets smashed if it goes second (the only chance in a game going second is going to be what I call Gman and Calgar beat down) as your whole army gets vaporized (usually after taking 6+ saves) these 2 somehow manage to kill 1000 points on their own...it's your only chance.
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Post by: Primark G
Often it is advantageous to go second. I guess building a list that can weather an alpha strike is a lost skill.
" these 2 somehow manage to kill 1000 points on their own...it's your only chance."
Care to enlighten me how they do this ? Do they run around screaming boo?
Martel732 wrote:
That wasn't a power armor list, really. It was a mech list. I bet those hellblasters did nothing vs Eldar/ De.
Shift those goal posts. 
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Post by: Martel732
I'm not shifting anything. There is almost no power armor for them to target in this list. But what's there dies instantly to dissy cannons. The heavy lifting is done by the mech. It's pretty simple.
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Post by: Primark G
When I said power armor I meant Space Marines as in a Space Marines army.
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Post by: Quickjager
Look this goes back to what we all talked about like half a year ago, which was that Robute was the only thing keeping Space Marines afloat.
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Post by: Primark G
Why not just put that into your signature so you do not have to keep repeating yourself?
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Post by: Quickjager
Because I don't say it very much Prik (THAI KING) G. and it makes sense to say so in this situation because it was a very high point tournament.
Go on quote me.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Seriously find a quote of me talking about the Ultramarine Primarch from the last 6 months.
lol welp gg autocorrect.
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Post by: Primark G
Lol I am working... I seem to remember you saying it not so long ago though.
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Post by: Marmatag
Primark G wrote: Marmatag wrote:
Primark G wrote:See how quick some are to dismiss a SM victory over trivial things that do not really matter.
Says the guy who has never played in a tournament and considers Guilliman a "crutch that real ultramarine players don't need."
Guilliman is solid and fire raptors are good, this is not news.
Who said I don't play in tournaments?
Acting like a 2200 meta would be identical to 2000 is silly.
It is just another unit for most armies - it is not more advantageous for SM armies.
You said you don't.
I guess you could give examples where you have?
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Post by: Xenomancers
Primark G wrote:Often it is advantageous to go second. I guess building a list that can weather an alpha strike is a lost skill.
" these 2 somehow manage to kill 1000 points on their own...it's your only chance."
Care to enlighten me how they do this ? Do they run around screaming boo?
Martel732 wrote:
That wasn't a power armor list, really. It was a mech list. I bet those hellblasters did nothing vs Eldar/ De.
Shift those goal posts.
Typically they don't do this but it has happened.
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Post by: Primark G
I have started playing in tournaments awhile back.
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Post by: Slayer-Fan123
That's a dubious claim when you say that the Custodes Terminators are good so...
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Post by: greatbigtree
Oh, for feth's sake. The guy says he plays in tournaments, he plays in tournaments.
Let it go. He can't prove it to you, and you can't prove he doesn't. Just because he has a different opinion, doesn't mean he doesn't play at tournaments.
@ Quickjager: Did you deliberately call him Prik G? Cause you could probably have chosen a different short-form...
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Post by: Quickjager
Huh, now that was an autocorrect. Sorry bout that G.
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Post by: Bharring
So when Ynnari were the broken hotness (Index), CWE was OP because they could field Whats-Her-Face. But when Bobby G was/is good, Marines are poop because it's just Bobby G?
(Since the codex, CWE are unquestionably good now.)
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Post by: The Newman
So I hear Raven Guard Aggressors are kind of bonkers...
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Post by: Crimson
Bharring wrote:So when Ynnari were the broken hotness (Index), CWE was OP because they could field Whats-Her-Face. But when Bobby G was/is good, Marines are poop because it's just Bobby G?
(Since the codex, CWE are unquestionably good now.)
Viable builds being locked to one subfaction or even worse, to one specific special character, is a failure in codex design. You're supposed to be able play various chapters with this book.
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Post by: CapRichard
The other topics? Yeah, RG aggressors are one of the few things that work. Hard counters to some units/armies, generally high firepower for the cost, consider that a single one shoots like 9 bolter shots, so more than 5 marines at 18", 1 less at <12", not counting double tapping. They provide volume of fire that these days is useful against all targets, because you either needs the shots to thin hordes, or needs the shots to go past invuln, armor, -1 to hit. RG can put them into double tap range turn 1 with their Stratagem Strike From the Shadow, and if you don't have turn 1 you can hide them somewhere. They are not universal though, against mobile armies they move too slowly to catch up and when not double tapping they lose too much useful firepower, so you'll end up with them never firing twice again after first turn. They can work as serviceable melee vehicle busters too if you get a turn 1 charge after the double tap, depends on how the enemy deployed. I hope you get them some rerolls and you actually kill whatever you intend to kill with them immediatly because their resilience is pretty poor for the cost. Still, I don't think that anybody can dismiss that the SM codex has some tricks here and there. Problem is that they are "the only way to play competitively" and "only work with a subfaction and are so much better that the other subfactions are worthless". So bad design overall.
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Post by: Ice_can
Bharring wrote:So when Ynnari were the broken hotness (Index), CWE was OP because they could field Whats-Her-Face. But when Bobby G was/is good, Marines are poop because it's just Bobby G?
(Since the codex, CWE are unquestionably good now.)
The problem with Ynnari and CWE to marine comparison is the CWE index and codex is competitive without Yannari. Yannari was the problem and got nerfed and will likely be rewritten if they get a codex. If Yvrani? Still buffed Aeldari models with SFD like it was first writen how much would the CWE codex had to suck to be balanced with her?
The Marine codex was done the otherway and made everything else weaker so they don't work without Bobby G, now if they had designed the codex to be competitive without Bobby G and give us Bobby G then an Bobby G list would have been broken.
But GW didn't realise or don't want to have to rewrite the codex's.
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Post by: Xenomancers
Bharring wrote:So when Ynnari were the broken hotness (Index), CWE was OP because they could field Whats-Her-Face. But when Bobby G was/is good, Marines are poop because it's just Bobby G?
(Since the codex, CWE are unquestionably good now.)
Cat lady is pretty good still.
Thing is - CWE could alternatively just play aloitoc dark reapers and have indestructable reapers rather than shoot twice fragile reapers. All their factions can use fire and fade stratagem/ linked fire stratagem/ 4++ gardian save stratagem/ deep strike stratagem (EVEN VEHICLES CAN DO THIS!). CWE didn't use ynnari as a crutch - CWE has several builds that are strong without Ynnari.
Including -
flyers spam
spear spam
serpant spam
All effective strategies. Automatically Appended Next Post: Ice_can wrote:Bharring wrote:So when Ynnari were the broken hotness (Index), CWE was OP because they could field Whats-Her-Face. But when Bobby G was/is good, Marines are poop because it's just Bobby G?
(Since the codex, CWE are unquestionably good now.)
The problem with Ynnari and CWE to marine comparison is the CWE index and codex is competitive without Yannari. Yannari was the problem and got nerfed and will likely be rewritten if they get a codex. If Yvrani? Still buffed Aeldari models with SFD like it was first writen how much would the CWE codex had to suck to be balanced with her?
The Marine codex was done the otherway and made everything else weaker so they don't work without Bobby G, now if they had designed the codex to be competitive without Bobby G and give us Bobby G then an Bobby G list would have been broken.
But GW didn't realise or don't want to have to rewrite the codex's.
I think you are giving GW too much credit here. They don't make connections like the ones you are implying. Ynnari was busted AF on their own without CWE - and they got nerfed. CWE was pretty weak in the index and got a massive power increase. Space marines was weak AF in the index and more or less got no power increase - several units got weaker - and the chapter traits do not affect vehcails while everyone elses do - it is a net power loss.
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Post by: The Newman
@ CaptainRichard: Yeah, no argument there.
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Post by: Bharring
"So *when* Ynnari *were* ..."
"... (Index)..."
"(Since the codex, CWE are unquestionably good now.)"
What part of that was claiming CWE aren't good now?
Was it really not clear I was talking about *when* things *were* that way, specifically using the Index? I thought I explicitly stated that CWE being good was unquestionable once the codex was out.
If Index CWE players were taking the Alaitoc trait, they were cheating. If Index CWE players were using the 4++ stratagem on Guardians they were cheating. And in a spectacular way, since those rules *didn't exist yet*.
It gets really frustrating to claim $X, then see a couple posts prove $notX is wrong because of reasons $a, $b, and $c. Once or twice, sure. But nearly every post on DakkaDakka?
Then we have claims like:
"Ynnari was busted AF on their own without CWE"
Sure, take Ynnari mono. You have 3 models and 0 CP. Good luck with that. They *require* another faction to do just about anything (although that could be DE, Harlies, or Corsairs).
"Space marines was weak AF in the index and more or less got no power increase "
Marines got a huge power increase. Gman + Razorbacks was freaking scary to just about any army when the SM book came out. *And* most armies were still in the Index. You could argue they didn't get enough of a power increase, but they certainly got a large power increase.
"and the chapter traits do not affect vehcails while everyone elses do"
When SM came out, "Everybody else" was in Index. That's a valid complaint now, but was not true when it came out.
"the CWE index and codex is competitive without Yannari."
Was the CWE index top dog - or even anywhere near - before Ynnari? I didn't think so. I did a quick spotcheck on Blood of Kittens of all Sept. 2017 (pre-CWE codex) tournament placings, and not a single one of those lists was a non-Ynnari CWE list. They had some nasty tricks, but I don't believe they were top dog. You needed their G-man equivelent to place.
Once again (because saying it once per post isn't enough, it seems), I'm not saying CWE Codex isn't OP. I'm making specific claims in a lot of ways. And I'm being specific about not claiming that. So why point out something I've already said is true?
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Post by: Martel732
As good as CWE are, they can't turn me into road pizza as fast as the Drukhari. Which means more time for things to go wrong for CWE.
I can't even tell you how good marine strats are in a pitched battle, because I'm being turned into road pizza before I can get mileage out of them. People say they are awful, but the most I'm really going to say is that there are not enough defensive strats like even the simple on that the IG get. And the marines need it more than the IG. Salt in the wound.
97080
Post by: HuskyWarhammer
Xenomancers wrote:Bharring wrote:So when Ynnari were the broken hotness (Index), CWE was OP because they could field Whats-Her-Face. But when Bobby G was/is good, Marines are poop because it's just Bobby G?
(Since the codex, CWE are unquestionably good now.)
Cat lady is pretty good still.
Thing is - CWE could alternatively just play aloitoc dark reapers and have indestructable reapers rather than shoot twice fragile reapers. All their factions can use fire and fade stratagem/ linked fire stratagem/ 4++ gardian save stratagem/ deep strike stratagem (EVEN VEHICLES CAN DO THIS!). CWE didn't use ynnari as a crutch - CWE has several builds that are strong without Ynnari.
Including -
flyers spam
spear spam
serpant spam
All effective strategies.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ice_can wrote:Bharring wrote:So when Ynnari were the broken hotness (Index), CWE was OP because they could field Whats-Her-Face. But when Bobby G was/is good, Marines are poop because it's just Bobby G?
(Since the codex, CWE are unquestionably good now.)
The problem with Ynnari and CWE to marine comparison is the CWE index and codex is competitive without Yannari. Yannari was the problem and got nerfed and will likely be rewritten if they get a codex. If Yvrani? Still buffed Aeldari models with SFD like it was first writen how much would the CWE codex had to suck to be balanced with her?
The Marine codex was done the otherway and made everything else weaker so they don't work without Bobby G, now if they had designed the codex to be competitive without Bobby G and give us Bobby G then an Bobby G list would have been broken.
But GW didn't realise or don't want to have to rewrite the codex's.
I think you are giving GW too much credit here. They don't make connections like the ones you are implying. Ynnari was busted AF on their own without CWE - and they got nerfed. CWE was pretty weak in the index and got a massive power increase. Space marines was weak AF in the index and more or less got no power increase - several units got weaker - and the chapter traits do not affect vehcails while everyone elses do - it is a net power loss.
You must not have been around much in the index days, eh? SM were doing awesomely for the first half or so of 8th. That's a long road from " Space marines was weak AF in the index "
90435
Post by: Slayer-Fan123
HuskyWarhammer wrote: Xenomancers wrote:Bharring wrote:So when Ynnari were the broken hotness (Index), CWE was OP because they could field Whats-Her-Face. But when Bobby G was/is good, Marines are poop because it's just Bobby G?
(Since the codex, CWE are unquestionably good now.)
Cat lady is pretty good still.
Thing is - CWE could alternatively just play aloitoc dark reapers and have indestructable reapers rather than shoot twice fragile reapers. All their factions can use fire and fade stratagem/ linked fire stratagem/ 4++ gardian save stratagem/ deep strike stratagem (EVEN VEHICLES CAN DO THIS!). CWE didn't use ynnari as a crutch - CWE has several builds that are strong without Ynnari.
Including -
flyers spam
spear spam
serpant spam
All effective strategies.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ice_can wrote:Bharring wrote:So when Ynnari were the broken hotness (Index), CWE was OP because they could field Whats-Her-Face. But when Bobby G was/is good, Marines are poop because it's just Bobby G?
(Since the codex, CWE are unquestionably good now.)
The problem with Ynnari and CWE to marine comparison is the CWE index and codex is competitive without Yannari. Yannari was the problem and got nerfed and will likely be rewritten if they get a codex. If Yvrani? Still buffed Aeldari models with SFD like it was first writen how much would the CWE codex had to suck to be balanced with her?
The Marine codex was done the otherway and made everything else weaker so they don't work without Bobby G, now if they had designed the codex to be competitive without Bobby G and give us Bobby G then an Bobby G list would have been broken.
But GW didn't realise or don't want to have to rewrite the codex's.
I think you are giving GW too much credit here. They don't make connections like the ones you are implying. Ynnari was busted AF on their own without CWE - and they got nerfed. CWE was pretty weak in the index and got a massive power increase. Space marines was weak AF in the index and more or less got no power increase - several units got weaker - and the chapter traits do not affect vehcails while everyone elses do - it is a net power loss.
You must not have been around much in the index days, eh? SM were doing awesomely for the first half or so of 8th. That's a long road from " Space marines was weak AF in the index "
You mean before Roboute and Razorbacks got hit, right?
71534
Post by: Bharring
Roboute and Razorbacks didn't get hit until CA, and the discussion quoted was talking about pre-CWE Codex (which was just before CA) - so yeah.
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Post by: Martel732
Just like marines were the gak in 5th for like... 2 months until more codices dropped lol.
110517
Post by: Primark G
IGNORE is your friend.
91128
Post by: Xenomancers
HuskyWarhammer wrote: Xenomancers wrote:Bharring wrote:So when Ynnari were the broken hotness (Index), CWE was OP because they could field Whats-Her-Face. But when Bobby G was/is good, Marines are poop because it's just Bobby G?
(Since the codex, CWE are unquestionably good now.)
Cat lady is pretty good still.
Thing is - CWE could alternatively just play aloitoc dark reapers and have indestructable reapers rather than shoot twice fragile reapers. All their factions can use fire and fade stratagem/ linked fire stratagem/ 4++ gardian save stratagem/ deep strike stratagem (EVEN VEHICLES CAN DO THIS!). CWE didn't use ynnari as a crutch - CWE has several builds that are strong without Ynnari.
Including -
flyers spam
spear spam
serpant spam
All effective strategies.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ice_can wrote:Bharring wrote:So when Ynnari were the broken hotness (Index), CWE was OP because they could field Whats-Her-Face. But when Bobby G was/is good, Marines are poop because it's just Bobby G?
(Since the codex, CWE are unquestionably good now.)
The problem with Ynnari and CWE to marine comparison is the CWE index and codex is competitive without Yannari. Yannari was the problem and got nerfed and will likely be rewritten if they get a codex. If Yvrani? Still buffed Aeldari models with SFD like it was first writen how much would the CWE codex had to suck to be balanced with her?
The Marine codex was done the otherway and made everything else weaker so they don't work without Bobby G, now if they had designed the codex to be competitive without Bobby G and give us Bobby G then an Bobby G list would have been broken.
But GW didn't realise or don't want to have to rewrite the codex's.
I think you are giving GW too much credit here. They don't make connections like the ones you are implying. Ynnari was busted AF on their own without CWE - and they got nerfed. CWE was pretty weak in the index and got a massive power increase. Space marines was weak AF in the index and more or less got no power increase - several units got weaker - and the chapter traits do not affect vehcails while everyone elses do - it is a net power loss.
You must not have been around much in the index days, eh? SM were doing awesomely for the first half or so of 8th. That's a long road from " Space marines was weak AF in the index "
No I was around. Seem to remember IG winning everything and they got buffed in their codex. LOL. Index marines is basically the same thing as codex marines minus razors are like 15 points more expensive and Gman went up 40 points. In other words - space marines were weak AF in the index they are just a little weaker now. Also storm ravens were a lot cheaper in index. 5 Storm raven armies...yeah...space marines let me tell yeah.
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Post by: Eonfuzz
Xenomancers wrote:
No I was around. Seem to remember IG winning everything and they got buffed in their codex. LOL. Index marines is basically the same thing as codex marines minus razors are like 15 points more expensive and Gman went up 40 points. In other words - space marines were weak AF in the index they are just a little weaker now. Also storm ravens were a lot cheaper in index. 5 Storm raven armies...yeah...space marines let me tell yeah.
Looks like someone's forgotten about the advantage of being one of the only armies with Stratagems, Relics, Faction Traits and sane point costs.
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Post by: Bharring
If Space Marines were "weak AF", why were they chosen by so many tourny placers/winners?
Unless, by "weak AF" you mean "There is reasonable doubt that they, alone, are the most powerful army in the game."
IG was at their level, until CA. Ynnari, too. CWE was way below them for about the first half of the edition (until November).
They were, at worst, top-3 up until CA.
Do you even remember the "SM worst Army" or "army ranking" threads from those days? SM was only the worst when you only compared it to IG/CWE up until CA came out. It was only "worst" or "weak" when you ignored all but the top two armies.
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Post by: jcd386
It doesn't help Marines right now if they were good yesterday, let alone a year ago.
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Post by: Bharring
But the belief that where they were at 6-12 months ago was "trash" is a problem. If we can't see when and how they *weren't* trash, it's nearly impossible to figure out if they're trash, by how much, and what needs to change to make them non-trash.
Besides, this line of discussion came from "even if Gman wins tournies, SM is trash", which was contrasted with CWE Index being considered OP because of one model *in another book* that was OP at the time. Once again, it speaks to what it means to be "trash".
I'd argue that Gman isn't quite good enough to make SM top tier now. But if "trash" means anything but undisputed #1, it's a very different discussion than "trash" meaning can't hold its own against more than a couple other books.
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Post by: Unit1126PLL
Yeah. There's two arguments here.
One side is all "Marines are bad!"
And the other side is "yes, but here are some misconceptions you should fix so we can proceed with addressing the problem rationally!"
And then the first side is all "NO WE ARE RIGHT 100%" and then a fight starts.
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Post by: Marmatag
At one point 6 Storm Ravens was a good list. Did that make marines good, and balanced?
Having a viable build for a moment doesn't make an army balanced and good.
Where have Tyranids been since the Tyrant nerf? Still a decent army but gone from competitive tables.
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Post by: Martel732
BA have two units that are usable atm. That's supposed to get me excited to play?
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Post by: Bharring
What about IG that don't like Guardsmen? Wait, no, sorry. Bad example.
DE that don't like Kabs in boats or Covens or such? Wait, no, that's not a problem either.
CWE that don't like Aspects or Psykers or Guardians or jetbikes or Serpents? Wait, no, that's good too now.
There are some losers in those 'Dex (Windrider fans and Wraith fans aren't doing so hot, for instance), but we're seeing a *lot* more variety in top armies than we have in the past. This is great.
SM have had this problem in 8th even when they were good. Agree. Other factions have had it previously. It sucks, and should always be corrected.
Internal balance is critical, but unfortunately is orthoganal - in some ways even partially opposed to - to external balance.
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Post by: the_scotsman
 Crimson wrote:Bharring wrote:So when Ynnari were the broken hotness (Index), CWE was OP because they could field Whats-Her-Face. But when Bobby G was/is good, Marines are poop because it's just Bobby G?
(Since the codex, CWE are unquestionably good now.)
Viable builds being locked to one subfaction or even worse, to one specific special character, is a failure in codex design. You're supposed to be able play various chapters with this book.
So, lets see how those non-alaitoc eldar lists are doing at tournaments.
*crickets*
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Post by: Martel732
All of those codices have more than two usable units.
I've seen three brutal Drukhari archetypes that use 10+ units between the three.
I can't field more than skeleton battalion of BA w/o gimping myself.
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Post by: Crimson
Though there the choice at least is between 'pretty damn good' and 'brokenly OP'. But yeah, it is still a problem. I knew this would happen when they announced the subfaction rules. GW can't make them balanced, and as there is no associated point cost, the balance cannot be achieved that way either. But as I just said in another thread, armywide -1 to hit was a terrible idea, and if they would just get rid of those it would fix a lot of balance issue.
For marines they need to fix both RGs, Guilliman and Raven Guard, and then adjust the point costs so that marines can be competitive without these crutches.
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Post by: Bharring
Getting rid of the army-wide -1tohit traits would certainly help tone down CWE. But would it do much about IG/Custards/DE/etc? An improvement, but I think limited.
Most of the CWE traits are the same as SM traits. The difference is (1) SM traits don't affect vehicles (yes, everyone agrees that's weak), and (2) CWE is better off without traits than SM.
As long as the RG trait is so good while the others are so meh, the only way to balance non-RG without making RG OP is with special characters... like Big G. But that's terrible balance, is hard to point correctly, and only fixes the subfaction(s) that get him/them.
The non-Alaitoc CWE traits aren't exactly broken. Better than SM traits (because vehicles), but not better than other subfaction traits.
Martel,
"All of those codices have more than two usable units. "
That was my point.
In the past. The top book would have 1-2 super awesome OP choices, and everyone would spam them. Now, there are still some choices better than others, but most of the top books can use a much wider array of choices than they could in past metas. CWE isn't "Codex DAVU" or "Codex ScatterBike". It is "Codex Alaitoc", but that still allows them to use several different units in each of the slots available (aside from LoW). This is an improvement over previous iterations of most 'Dexes.
I wish SM had similar balance.
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Post by: Martel732
As i've mentioned before, the whole thing is drug down by a single statline.
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Post by: Bharring
As we've been through before:
If "one statline" is a problem, why do people complain so much about Reapers and Spears, who share the Dire Avenger statline?
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Post by: Xenomancers
 Eonfuzz wrote: Xenomancers wrote:
No I was around. Seem to remember IG winning everything and they got buffed in their codex. LOL. Index marines is basically the same thing as codex marines minus razors are like 15 points more expensive and Gman went up 40 points. In other words - space marines were weak AF in the index they are just a little weaker now. Also storm ravens were a lot cheaper in index. 5 Storm raven armies...yeah...space marines let me tell yeah.
Looks like someone's forgotten about the advantage of being one of the only armies with Stratagems, Relics, Faction Traits and sane point costs.
Have you seen space marine stratagems?
How about Ultra marine trait that lets me fall back and shoot with infantry or dreads only at -1 to hit? When anything with the fly keyword does this at full ballistic?
In any case yeah - they did get some toys for like a month that no one else had. All their toys are crap by comparison / all their units are overcosted / they even have the worst psychic powers to boot.
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Post by: Martel732
Bharring wrote:As we've been through before:
If "one statline" is a problem, why do people complain so much about Reapers and Spears, who share the Dire Avenger statline?
I don't know much about spears, but for reapers, its special equipment that is way undercosted. If marine devs got similar special equipment, they would be equivalent. But they don't.
Assault marines need to have more perks over a tac marine than a jump pack and chainsword, or tacs need to be a lot nastier.
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Post by: Xenomancers
Bharring wrote:But the belief that where they were at 6-12 months ago was "trash" is a problem. If we can't see when and how they *weren't* trash, it's nearly impossible to figure out if they're trash, by how much, and what needs to change to make them non-trash.
Besides, this line of discussion came from "even if Gman wins tournies, SM is trash", which was contrasted with CWE Index being considered OP because of one model *in another book* that was OP at the time. Once again, it speaks to what it means to be "trash".
I'd argue that Gman isn't quite good enough to make SM top tier now. But if "trash" means anything but undisputed #1, it's a very different discussion than "trash" meaning can't hold its own against more than a couple other books.
how many tournaments are there a year? It seems Gman wins a tourney every couple of months. It is meaningless. All you need to do to win a tournament is win 5 games in a row. Almost any army can do that every once and a while - even if it is not very strong.
For example - I have gone second in my last 13 games. The odds of that are really low - but it does happen. Automatically Appended Next Post: Martel732 wrote:Bharring wrote:As we've been through before:
If "one statline" is a problem, why do people complain so much about Reapers and Spears, who share the Dire Avenger statline?
I don't know much about spears, but for reapers, its special equipment that is way undercosted. If marine devs got similar special equipment, they would be equivalent. But they don't.
Assault marines need to have more perks over a tac marine than a jump pack and chainsword, or tacs need to be a lot nastier.
31 points - T4 2W A216" move 3+/4++ to shooting attacks. Auto advance 6"
4 Shuriken Shots and a laser lance shot. Assault 1 Str 6 ap-4 flat2 damage 6" range. This weapon can also be used in CC. Attacks resolve at str 6 ap-4 flat 2.
The exarch also has +1 W and +1 attack and rerolls wounds vs vehical vs Except he has 3 attacks and str 8 instead of 6.
Compare that to a vangaurd vet and laugh your butt off.
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Post by: Slayer-Fan123
-1 To Hit traits are fine when you aren't getting more than 2 stacks. Raven Guard certainly aren't doing that...
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Post by: Martel732
So spears don't have dire avenger stats at all.
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Post by: Bharring
"Have you seen space marine stratagems?"
They were certainly better than the CWE strats at the time.
"How about Ultra marine trait that lets me fall back and shoot with infantry or dreads only at -1 to hit? When anything with the fly keyword does this at full ballistic?"
Better than most faction's trait at the time which was:
I mean, that's situational and not great, but every other faction's non-fly units that fell back couldn't shoot at all. Compared to no trait, the UM trait is better. Again, better than the CWE/Tau/Nid/DE/etc traits at the time.
"they did get some toys for like a month that no one else had."
July 2017 until November 2017 isn't "like a month". There was only "like a month" until they were 1 of 2 with books. Still very exclusive at that point. Many, many more months before the "average" army had their toys.
"how many tournaments are there a year? It seems Gman wins a tourney every couple of months. It is meaningless. All you need to do to win a tournament is win 5 games in a row. Almost any army can do that every once and a while - even if it is not very strong. "
From the section you quoted from me: "I'd argue that Gman isn't quite good enough to make SM top tier now."
How can you read that and conclude that I'm arguing Gman is so good that he makes SM top tier now? Seriously?
"For example - I have gone second in my second 13 games. The odds of that are really low - but it does happen."
That's why, when discussing which lists were good when, I don't look for an example or two of an army winning in that era. I pull up a list of winning lists of that era then look at them. Hypothesis, then data collection, instead of seeking the data to fit the hypothesis.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
"So spears don't have dire avenger stats at all."
"Compare that to a vangaurd vet and laugh your butt off."
Seriously? Vanguard Vet is the SM equivelent of an elite on a bike? And not something like Company Vet On Bike? VV would be more Banshee or Scorpion.
DA -> Shining Spear
-2 basic weapons instead of 1
-Massive movement buff
-Must take CC/special weapon (Lance)
-2W
-Bike armor
-4++ vs shooting replaces DA special rule
Tac -> Company Vet
-2 basic weapons instead of 1
-Massive movement buff
-May take CC weapon (long list) and/or Special weapon (incl. PG)
-2W
-Bike armor (same as Tac, though)
Shining Spears are better pointed, use an Eldar bike (so can move more), and has an awesome special rule. But they are "just an upgrade of a DA" in the same way that a Company Vet Bike is an upgrade of a Tac.
In either case, yes, Shining Spears share their statline with DAs much the same way that SM bikes share their statlines with Tacs.
WTF would you consider the analoge of an elite Biker unit to be that of a jumppacker?
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Post by: the_scotsman
Crimson wrote:
Though there the choice at least is between 'pretty damn good' and 'brokenly OP'. But yeah, it is still a problem. I knew this would happen when they announced the subfaction rules. GW can't make them balanced, and as there is no associated point cost, the balance cannot be achieved that way either. But as I just said in another thread, armywide -1 to hit was a terrible idea, and if they would just get rid of those it would fix a lot of balance issue.
For marines they need to fix both RGs, Guilliman and Raven Guard, and then adjust the point costs so that marines can be competitive without these crutches.
Can you point out to me the other eldar subfaction tactic that's "pretty damn good" compared to, say, non-UM space marine chapters?
You've got:
-Iron Hands (we all know how enthusiastic marine players are about this one!)
-max casualty of 1 for morale, vehicles degrade less (This one I'll definitely say is pretty solid in a vehicle-focused list, but eldar are highly MSU focused and have good LD anyway so the first part rarely helps much)
-reroll hits of one with shuriken weapons (if only we had a 60pt character who did this for everything...)
-reroll charges, and two bad units get to move and fire their scatter lasers and dark lances (how are those competitive Black Templars lists working?)
Compare to off-meta tactics for marines, particularly Salamanders and Raven Guard.
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Post by: Xenomancers
Eldar has a lot of the same traits as space marines do - they just dominate with them because they have better costed units...good stratagems...2 good lists of psychic powers. Plus their traits apply to all their stuff.
Imagine is CWE had power from pain and flayed skull...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Bharring wrote:"Have you seen space marine stratagems?"
They were certainly better than the CWE strats at the time.
"How about Ultra marine trait that lets me fall back and shoot with infantry or dreads only at -1 to hit? When anything with the fly keyword does this at full ballistic?"
Better than most faction's trait at the time which was:
I mean, that's situational and not great, but every other faction's non-fly units that fell back couldn't shoot at all. Compared to no trait, the UM trait is better. Again, better than the CWE/Tau/Nid/ DE/etc traits at the time.
"they did get some toys for like a month that no one else had."
July 2017 until November 2017 isn't "like a month". There was only "like a month" until they were 1 of 2 with books. Still very exclusive at that point. Many, many more months before the "average" army had their toys.
"how many tournaments are there a year? It seems Gman wins a tourney every couple of months. It is meaningless. All you need to do to win a tournament is win 5 games in a row. Almost any army can do that every once and a while - even if it is not very strong. "
From the section you quoted from me: "I'd argue that Gman isn't quite good enough to make SM top tier now."
How can you read that and conclude that I'm arguing Gman is so good that he makes SM top tier now? Seriously?
"For example - I have gone second in my second 13 games. The odds of that are really low - but it does happen."
That's why, when discussing which lists were good when, I don't look for an example or two of an army winning in that era. I pull up a list of winning lists of that era then look at them. Hypothesis, then data collection, instead of seeking the data to fit the hypothesis.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
"So spears don't have dire avenger stats at all."
"Compare that to a vangaurd vet and laugh your butt off."
Seriously? Vanguard Vet is the SM equivelent of an elite on a bike? And not something like Company Vet On Bike? VV would be more Banshee or Scorpion.
DA -> Shining Spear
-2 basic weapons instead of 1
-Massive movement buff
-Must take CC/special weapon (Lance)
-2W
-Bike armor
-4++ vs shooting replaces DA special rule
Tac -> Company Vet
-2 basic weapons instead of 1
-Massive movement buff
-May take CC weapon (long list) and/or Special weapon (incl. PG)
-2W
-Bike armor (same as Tac, though)
Shining Spears are better pointed, use an Eldar bike (so can move more), and has an awesome special rule. But they are "just an upgrade of a DA" in the same way that a Company Vet Bike is an upgrade of a Tac.
In either case, yes, Shining Spears share their statline with DAs much the same way that SM bikes share their statlines with Tacs.
WTF would you consider the analoge of an elite Biker unit to be that of a jumppacker?
I'll save you the time for the annylisis.
It's kind of like poker.
DE are like pocket kings
Space marines are pocket 2's
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Post by: Bharring
First, what, exactly, is that supposed to imply beyond "DE > SM"? I could see "DE and SM both have in-book synergy, but SM is still bad" may somewhat be what you mean? I'm at a loss.
Second,
How does SM vs DE relate to whether any non-bad army has non-troops that share Troop statlines?
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Post by: the_scotsman
Xenomancers wrote:Eldar has a lot of the same traits as space marines do - they just dominate with them because they have better costed units...good stratagems...2 good lists of psychic powers. Plus their traits apply to all their stuff.
Imagine is CWE had power from pain and flayed skull...
Again, I'm gonna have to ask, what is this "them"? It amazes me that you can have a stance towards Space Marines where "Oh, so [Ultramarines, Raven Guard, Guilliman Armies, Stormraven Spam] is decent, but SPACE MARINES are bad!" nearly every time anyone posts a marine list that does well at any event, among the responses from you and other members of your church is "wheres muh iron hands tournament list?"
Where are the tournament winning Biel-tan lists? Tournament winning Ulthwe lists? Who is dominating with non-Alaitoc eldar? All we've ever seen is single units in Ynnari detachments taking the White Scars - sorry, I mean Saim-Hann - stratagem.
You just seem to blindly attack any non-marine faction as OP and needs nurfs regardless of where they actually fall in current tournament tier lists. Where did CWE fall in that ATC result lineup? Were they right at the top? Oh, tenth? seventh in terms of faction popularity?
You don't apply any of the same standards you apply to marines to any other faction, and will decry nearly everything as OP if you can use it to cast marines as bad, and I just do not get it. They're pretty universally poor and need buffs, but what's with the crusade to get everything nerfed down to the effectively index level that marines are at?
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Post by: Xenomancers
Bharring wrote:First, what, exactly, is that supposed to imply beyond "DE > SM"? I could see "DE and SM both have in-book synergy, but SM is still bad" may somewhat be what you mean? I'm at a loss.
Second,
How does SM vs DE relate to whether any non-bad army has non-troops that share Troop statlines?
Basically I was just trying to tell you the analysis of tournament data is a waste of time when the answer is so simple. You can make a space marine army that can win a game.
Pocket 2's technically has a 50% chance to beat a randomly drawn hand heads up. Where as pocket aces have an 80% chance to beat any randomly drawn hand. You can still lose with it though.
Really - every army should be winning tournaments every once and a while. The fact that they don't is just because not enough people play them. Space marines are a highly played army - you can expect to see them win some events. It's a long shot every-time they do though. This game is probability - with some skill mixed in.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote: Xenomancers wrote:Eldar has a lot of the same traits as space marines do - they just dominate with them because they have better costed units...good stratagems...2 good lists of psychic powers. Plus their traits apply to all their stuff.
Imagine is CWE had power from pain and flayed skull...
Again, I'm gonna have to ask, what is this "them"? It amazes me that you can have a stance towards Space Marines where "Oh, so [Ultramarines, Raven Guard, Guilliman Armies, Stormraven Spam] is decent, but SPACE MARINES are bad!" nearly every time anyone posts a marine list that does well at any event, among the responses from you and other members of your church is "wheres muh iron hands tournament list?"
Where are the tournament winning Biel-tan lists? Tournament winning Ulthwe lists? Who is dominating with non-Alaitoc eldar? All we've ever seen is single units in Ynnari detachments taking the White Scars - sorry, I mean Saim-Hann - stratagem.
You just seem to blindly attack any non-marine faction as OP and needs nurfs regardless of where they actually fall in current tournament tier lists. Where did CWE fall in that ATC result lineup? Were they right at the top? Oh, tenth? seventh in terms of faction popularity?
You don't apply any of the same standards you apply to marines to any other faction, and will decry nearly everything as OP if you can use it to cast marines as bad, and I just do not get it. They're pretty universally poor and need buffs, but what's with the crusade to get everything nerfed down to the effectively index level that marines are at?
Why would you take anything but the best army trait to a tournament? Unless you are space marines or Ad mech. Who have their best build tied to weak army traits from a special character.
Raven gaurd is the best space marine trait - Guilliman is the best build. This is another factor that hurts space marines.
Ad mech have the same trait with the same OP stratagem - but give up Cawl to use it.
If only beiltan had access to shinning spears - that is what people would play I am sure. Limitations are a huge factor - eldar have unlimited access to their best characters/stratagems/units with whatever trait they want.
Also - I don't want nerfs. I want marine buffs because they are a clear outlier in power compared to the rest of the game. (some things need nerfs thought - like spears...and castellan knights)
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Post by: Bharring
"Basically I was just trying to tell you the analysis of tournament data is a waste of time when the answer is so simple. You can make a space marine army that can win a game.
Pocket 2's technically has a 50% chance to beat a randomly drawn hand heads up. Where as pocket aces have an 80% chance to beat any randomly drawn hand. You can still lose with it though. "
You can, sure. Odds of a player, assuming they get pocket 2s every hand, of winning 5 hands straight? 0.032%. No, I don't mean 3%. So, for every *3125* 5-hand tournaments, you'd expect that to happen... once on average. At ~15 big tournies a month, you should see it... once every 208 months?
Math is useful. When used *correctly*. Analogies can be powerful, but only when they bring something to the table.
"If only beiltan had access to shinning spears"
In what codex did they not? In no rules or fluff that i can think of would Alaitoc have more ready access to Spears than BielTan. Whether BielTan or Samm-Hain has more is debateable, but that's. Where did you come up with that?
" eldar have unlimited access to their best characters/stratagems/units with whatever trait they want."
Most of CWE Characters don't get *any* traits. Two meh characters get Alaitoc, but the best character that gets a trait is Uthwe. Where did you pull that from?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry, I got turned around.
You're saying Bobby G is not like Ms Ynnari because UM can't take Bobby G and get the Raven Guard trait on his guys, but CWE can take Ms Ynnari (who isn't CWE) and still get the Alaitoc trait on her guys (she can't)?
If that were true, you might have a point.
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Post by: Marmatag
Bharring wrote:What about IG that don't like Guardsmen? Wait, no, sorry. Bad example.
Whew, glad you acknowledged this as a bad example. I can't imagine getting into a faction with the idea that I would hate their troops, especially if i had been gifted point-for-point the best troops in the entire game. Automatically Appended Next Post: Bharring wrote:
Sorry, I got turned around.
You're saying Bobby G is not like Ms Ynnari because UM can't take Bobby G and get the Raven Guard trait on his guys, but CWE can take Ms Ynnari (who isn't CWE) and still get the Alaitoc trait on her guys (she can't)?
If that were true, you might have a point.
Eldar retain their craftworld keyword when they become Ynnari. So they can still receive <craftworld> buffs based on radius and you can still use <craftworld> stratagems on them.
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Post by: Bharring
But not their *traits*. So you can't use Raven Guards "-1 to hit" or Iron Hands "6+ FNP" on units that take SfD. In other words, they can't get Alaitoc's *trait*. Automatically Appended Next Post: (You can still use <Adeptus Astartes> on Raven Guard units in lists that take Bobby G.)
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Post by: Marmatag
Yes but, there is no overlapping <GUILLIMAN> keyword. Making him entirely worthless for Raven Guard.
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Post by: Galas
the_scotsman wrote: Crimson wrote:Bharring wrote:So when Ynnari were the broken hotness (Index), CWE was OP because they could field Whats-Her-Face. But when Bobby G was/is good, Marines are poop because it's just Bobby G?
(Since the codex, CWE are unquestionably good now.)
Viable builds being locked to one subfaction or even worse, to one specific special character, is a failure in codex design. You're supposed to be able play various chapters with this book.
So, lets see how those non-alaitoc eldar lists are doing at tournaments.
*crickets*
Actually Ultwhe Guardian-Spam and SainHaim+Ynnary are used too. But to be honest when a sub-faction has no associated special character does it even matters that is the only viable one in the codex? Of course it lacks more options, but it isn't that big of a deal.
What I lose if I use my Iron Warriors as Alpha Legion? Nothing.
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Post by: Bharring
So you can't take Bobby G in a detatchment with units using the Raven Guard trait? Isn't that at least similar to not being able to take Ms Ynnari in a detatchment using the Alaitoc trait?
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Post by: Galas
Is not like Ynnari are any better designed than Gorillaman.
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Post by: Bharring
I would say it's not very reasonable to dismiss one but not the other.
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Post by: Galas
They are both a failure, shown by how GW can't make Ynnari work properly without being OP in all of their incarnations, and Roboto G is just competitive enough because his army sucks. You put him in any other Codex and it would become the most OP thing ever made.
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Post by: Slayer-Fan123
Ynnari need to be their own codex for proper balance. The way it's done now is ridiculous.
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Post by: Bharring
If Ynnari need their own Codex, why doesn't Gman?
Isn't it the same basic problem for both? So much of a force multiplier other subfactions don't get?
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Post by: jcd386
Bharring wrote:If Ynnari need their own Codex, why doesn't Gman?
Isn't it the same basic problem for both? So much of a force multiplier other subfactions don't get?
Roboute's issue is his aura needs to be nerfed, then the mariine issues need to be fixed for all marines.
Ynnari need their own rules, or no rules, not other people's rules plus.
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Post by: Marmatag
Bharring wrote:If Ynnari need their own Codex, why doesn't Gman? Isn't it the same basic problem for both? So much of a force multiplier other subfactions don't get?
Except you could use Ynnari with Sam Hain, Alaitoc, etc, and they retain their much of their identity. They can use stratagems, buffs, special units, etc. The chapter tactics themselves are a complete joke anyway, as they don't impact much of the marine line. Even if you lost chapter tactics, there are better ways to use Guilliman than Ultramarines if he made those buffs available to all Astartes keyword units. For instance, Grey Knights would happily give up the entirety of their tactics to be used with Guilliman. Imperial Fists, White Scars, could make interesting pairings too, with Guilliman being fast enough to keep up with White Scars and Bolter Drill inspired Sternguards with full rerolls. Guilliman is far more restricted, you have to see this. And in general I agree that both units are poorly balanced. I further agree that if you dropped Guilliman into literally ANY other army non-marines in the game, he would instantly become the most broken thing in 40k history. It's the fact that the marine range is so bad in general that makes him not insane broken.
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Post by: bananathug
What are we still arguing about here?
Gulliman makes marines less terrible but still not as good as the good codexes, right?
Marines really aren't good at anything (shooting, CQC, infantry, vehicles, defense, psychic, mobility, strategems, tactics). At best they are mid-tier (raven guard aggressors, guilliman backed dev squads) but lack the tools to leverage those areas where they are not terrible into a cohesive army with an identity that can win games.
Their inability to field a true TAC list is probably what holds them back the most (can't fight hordes and knights because they are over-costed/under-powered). But even then they can't do any one thing better than other armies can do that one thing (ATC results).
I feel like most posters agree with all of these and the battle is about what "trash tier" means. If you play in a casual meta there is no such thing. Most armies can compete with most other armies because you are not facing DE backed up by CWE or knights or guards+custodes every game.
For those of us in net-list, current meta hotness trash tier is a real thing. There are matchups that I'm not going to be able to win (at least with some reasonable chance of success) due to the imbalance between a good, good codex list and a good, bad codex list.
As far as cat-lady vs guilliman. CWE still have to tools to field highly competitive lists without her. They work really well in soup lists and the hotness is CWE + DE. You really don't see marines at top tables with or without guilliman. Maybe scouts when we needed to screen from first turn charges but now that has been removed there's really no reason to take them.
You guys have figured it out. Tuning the marine codex to work with guilliman ruined it. There are rumors of all the primarchs coming out and if that is the plan then maybe marines can be saved by The Lion or Dorn or whatever other cash grab mini-dex GW is going to put out that desperate marine players will gobble up.
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Post by: DarthDiggler
ITC missions really punish G-man lists because board control is so vital to scoring points.
I took G-man to ATC and did very well against a variety of opponents. I scored 28 points against Guard, BA, Shield Captain list. I killed 50 Guard, 12 mortars, two shield captains and 2 BA captains, 15 Scouts - basically a horde list with character backup. I faced 6 Knights from two lists and left 5 of them dead. I tabled a Tau list with 3 Riptides and 3 Ghostkeels and a ton of drones.
G-man
2 Repulsers, all dakka
3 Predators, Heavy bolters, auto cannon
Thunderfire cannon
3 Scouts (2- snipers)
Smash Captain
Techmarine
Killshot is something else on turn 1, but that never killed a Knight on its own. Repulsors are crazy with rerolls. They fly, they reduce charges by 2, they overwatch like mad with G-Man nearby. They are workhorses. I went second against a list with 3 Knights and 3 Shield captains. Lost a predator turn 1 and tabled him except for a single 5-man squad hiding in the back corner.
In 3 practice games it tabled Dark Eldar every time. My lowest scoring game was against Eldar/ DE. I lost 2 predators, repulsor, 2 Scouts and the Techmarine. I killed everything except 2 ranger squads, a warlock and a ravager with 5 warriors.
This is a potent list.
A version of it won the Buckeye Battles GT recently.
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2018/07/23/pure-space-marines-win-the-buckeye-battles-gt/
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Post by: Ice_can
DarthDiggler wrote:ITC missions really punish G-man lists because board control is so vital to scoring points.
I took G-man to ATC and did very well against a variety of opponents. I scored 28 points against Guard, BA, Shield Captain list. I killed 50 Guard, 12 mortars, two shield captains and 2 BA captains, 15 Scouts - basically a horde list with character backup. I faced 6 Knights from two lists and left 5 of them dead. I tabled a Tau list with 3 Riptides and 3 Ghostkeels and a ton of drones.
G-man
2 Repulsers, all dakka
3 Predators, Heavy bolters, auto cannon
Thunderfire cannon
3 Scouts (2- snipers)
Smash Captain
Techmarine
Killshot is something else on turn 1, but that never killed a Knight on its own. Repulsors are crazy with rerolls. They fly, they reduce charges by 2, they overwatch like mad with G-Man nearby. They are workhorses. I went second against a list with 3 Knights and 3 Shield captains. Lost a predator turn 1 and tabled him except for a single 5-man squad hiding in the back corner.
In 3 practice games it tabled Dark Eldar every time. My lowest scoring game was against Eldar/ DE. I lost 2 predators, repulsor, 2 Scouts and the Techmarine. I killed everything except 2 ranger squads, a warlock and a ravager with 5 warriors.
This is a potent list.
A version of it won the Buckeye Battles GT recently.
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2018/07/23/pure-space-marines-win-the-buckeye-battles-gt/
What detachments did you take for that list?
Also people were only killing 1 predator per turn that is some bad rolling or something odd because no way does a predator last 1 turn in the open.
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Post by: DarthDiggler
Battalion - Superheavy auxillery - heavy auxiliary (-1 cp)
I outranged most everything and would deploy the predators, in some cases, 57-60” away from antitank guns. I could move up 12” and fire with rerolls. My Scouts would create a buffer so BA smashcaptains couldn’t ‘wings of fire’ into a tank turn 1. Sometimes I would continue the screen with characters.
After turn 1 most opponents would forget about the predators and try to stop the repulsor who were doing a ton of damage. In most of my games I would end up using predators to screen for the repulsors.
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Post by: Marmatag
Yes it is widely known that G-man getting turn 1 is straight up fabulous. No one is disputing that he's powerful. For a while I ran a list that featured Guilliman, Tigurius, Smashcaptain, scouts, single-heavy squads for the double hellfire / krakk, stormraven, and miscellaneous stuff. It worked very well when it went first. But there are quite a few things that would feth your couch.
And, in a meta that definitely favors gunlines, building a G-man gunline isn't the worst decision in the world.
ITC doesn't punish Guilliman. It punishes lists that ignore the movement phase for as much dakka as humanly possible.
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Post by: Martel732
How many units can you realistically squeeze into a Bobby G castle?
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Post by: Stux
Martel732 wrote:How many units can you realistically squeeze into a Bobby G castle?
A lot!
Remember only one model from each unit needs to be within 6". So the theoretical maximum is how many bases can fit on the circumference of a circle that is 6" + the radius of Bobby G's base in radius, plus the number of units that can fit within that circle minus G's base.
I would estimate off the top of my head something like 25+ units. Automatically Appended Next Post: Obviously that's infantry, any vehicles reduce that.
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Post by: Martel732
Yet, he seems to be used with vehicles more often.
Also, how many points does he need to buff to be worthwhile? Obviously, there will have to be units outside the buff in order to play objective missions.
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Post by: Crimson
I really hate that the most optimal build is to just park a ton of vehicles around one ludicrous character. It is so undynamic and boring.
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Post by: Bharring
Would you rather Gladius?
Because I would.
108023
Post by: Marmatag
Martel732 wrote:Yet, he seems to be used with vehicles more often. Also, how many points does he need to buff to be worthwhile? Obviously, there will have to be units outside the buff in order to play objective missions.
He's only near vehicles because that's the best stuff in the SM codex. And this is where mathhammer breaks down. Assuming you're hitting on 3s, and ideally wounding on 4s (meaning, you've got the right S for the right T, and you're not over-killing). Guilliman chance to hit and wound: (1-(2/6)^2)*(1-(3/6)^2) = 24/36 Chapter Master Captain + Lieutenant: (1-(2/6)^2)*(3/6 + (1/6)*(3/6)) = 18/36 So Guilliman is giving you a slight increase, at a cost of 400 versus 170. Thus, a non-Guilliman gunline has 1830 points to work with, versus 1600 for Guilliman. Let's assume that you need 200 points outside of the bubble for Scouts, and literally everything else is wedged inside that bubble. In the end, that works out to a net advantage of 933.33 efficiency 'score' on your points to 815 for another chapter. At the end of the day, if the Space Marine tactics applied to everything - not just tacticals and dreadnoughts - there would be much better choices than Ultramarines and Guilliman. His comparative efficiency boost is minor, but because all of the chapter-specific stratagems and tactics are essentially complete garbage, it's worth taking him for this small increase at the cost of stratagems, tactics, etc. If Raven Guard tactics applied to everything, they would be a no-brainer. If Imperial Fists tactics applied to everything, they would also be a better choice. It's also worth noting that you could take advantage of a better warlord trait for gunlines too. Storm of Fire, for example, would work well as it gives you additional chances at AP which i'm not accounting for here.
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Post by: jcd386
Marmatag wrote:Martel732 wrote:Yet, he seems to be used with vehicles more often.
Also, how many points does he need to buff to be worthwhile? Obviously, there will have to be units outside the buff in order to play objective missions.
He's only near vehicles because that's the best stuff in the SM codex.
And this is where mathhammer breaks down.
Assuming you're hitting on 3s, and ideally wounding on 4s (meaning, you've got the right S for the right T, and you're not over-killing).
Guilliman chance to hit and wound: (1-(2/6)^2)*(1-(3/6)^2) = 24/36
Chapter Master Captain + Lieutenant: (1-(2/6)^2)*(3/6 + (1/6)*(3/6)) = 18/36
So Guilliman is giving you a slight increase, at a cost of 400 versus 170.
Thus, a non-Guilliman gunline has 1830 points to work with, versus 1600 for Guilliman.
Let's assume that you need 200 points outside of the bubble for Scouts, and literally everything else is wedged inside that bubble.
In the end, that works out to a net advantage of 933.33 efficiency 'score' on your points to 815 for another chapter.
At the end of the day, if the Space Marine tactics applied to everything - not just tacticals and dreadnoughts - there would be much better choices than Ultramarines and Guilliman. His comparative efficiency boost is minor, but because all of the chapter-specific stratagems and tactics are essentially complete garbage, it's worth taking him for this small increase at the cost of stratagems, tactics, etc.
If Raven Guard tactics applied to everything, they would be a no-brainer. If Imperial Fists tactics applied to everything, they would also be a better choice. It's also worth noting that you could take advantage of a better warlord trait for gunlines too. Storm of Fire, for example, would work well as it gives you additional chances at AP which i'm not accounting for here.
It's also worth noting that if you do the math for things wounding on 5+ or worse, Roboute pulls farther ahead. This is why Str 5+ is ideal for roboute lists (hello fire raptors and repulsors), because you don't mind wounding anything in the game on 5s if you get to reroll wounds and it massively increases the damage output of those weapons, which tend to already be the best weapons in the game due to how AP works and how many invuls there are.
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Post by: Ice_can
Marmatag wrote:Martel732 wrote:Yet, he seems to be used with vehicles more often.
Also, how many points does he need to buff to be worthwhile? Obviously, there will have to be units outside the buff in order to play objective missions.
He's only near vehicles because that's the best stuff in the SM codex.
And this is where mathhammer breaks down.
Assuming you're hitting on 3s, and ideally wounding on 4s (meaning, you've got the right S for the right T, and you're not over-killing).
Guilliman chance to hit and wound: (1-(2/6)^2)*(1-(3/6)^2) = 24/36
Chapter Master Captain + Lieutenant: (1-(2/6)^2)*(3/6 + (1/6)*(3/6)) = 18/36
So Guilliman is giving you a slight increase, at a cost of 400 versus 170.
Thus, a non-Guilliman gunline has 1830 points to work with, versus 1600 for Guilliman.
Let's assume that you need 200 points outside of the bubble for Scouts, and literally everything else is wedged inside that bubble.
In the end, that works out to a net advantage of 933.33 efficiency 'score' on your points to 815 for another chapter.
At the end of the day, if the Space Marine tactics applied to everything - not just tacticals and dreadnoughts - there would be much better choices than Ultramarines and Guilliman. His comparative efficiency boost is minor, but because all of the chapter-specific stratagems and tactics are essentially complete garbage, it's worth taking him for this small increase at the cost of stratagems, tactics, etc.
If Raven Guard tactics applied to everything, they would be a no-brainer. If Imperial Fists tactics applied to everything, they would also be a better choice. It's also worth noting that you could take advantage of a better warlord trait for gunlines too. Storm of Fire, for example, would work well as it gives you additional chances at AP which i'm not accounting for here.
but thats the other thing you don't use Bobby G to use the right weapons for a target its to abuse the aura to make heavy bolters and assualt cannons wound like lascannons. So it's hard to really calculate the efficiency of the buff as the list has to be built to maximise abuse of rerolls to be competitive. Like seriously can any other chapter make a repulsor with all s5 s6 shooting work in a tac list?
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Post by: jcd386
Ice_can wrote: Marmatag wrote:Martel732 wrote:Yet, he seems to be used with vehicles more often.
Also, how many points does he need to buff to be worthwhile? Obviously, there will have to be units outside the buff in order to play objective missions.
He's only near vehicles because that's the best stuff in the SM codex.
And this is where mathhammer breaks down.
Assuming you're hitting on 3s, and ideally wounding on 4s (meaning, you've got the right S for the right T, and you're not over-killing).
Guilliman chance to hit and wound: (1-(2/6)^2)*(1-(3/6)^2) = 24/36
Chapter Master Captain + Lieutenant: (1-(2/6)^2)*(3/6 + (1/6)*(3/6)) = 18/36
So Guilliman is giving you a slight increase, at a cost of 400 versus 170.
Thus, a non-Guilliman gunline has 1830 points to work with, versus 1600 for Guilliman.
Let's assume that you need 200 points outside of the bubble for Scouts, and literally everything else is wedged inside that bubble.
In the end, that works out to a net advantage of 933.33 efficiency 'score' on your points to 815 for another chapter.
At the end of the day, if the Space Marine tactics applied to everything - not just tacticals and dreadnoughts - there would be much better choices than Ultramarines and Guilliman. His comparative efficiency boost is minor, but because all of the chapter-specific stratagems and tactics are essentially complete garbage, it's worth taking him for this small increase at the cost of stratagems, tactics, etc.
If Raven Guard tactics applied to everything, they would be a no-brainer. If Imperial Fists tactics applied to everything, they would also be a better choice. It's also worth noting that you could take advantage of a better warlord trait for gunlines too. Storm of Fire, for example, would work well as it gives you additional chances at AP which i'm not accounting for here.
but thats the other thing you don't use Bobby G to use the right weapons for a target its to abuse the aura to make heavy bolters and assualt cannons wound like lascannons. So it's hard to really calculate the efficiency of the buff as the list has to be built to maximise abuse of rerolls to be competitive. Like seriously can any other chapter make a repulsor with all s5 s6 shooting work in a tac list?
Exactly. It's one thing to reroll hits, since it increases the damage of all weapons that roll to hit by the same amount (33%). But re-roll wounds is impossible to balance correctly, which is probably why it is almost nowhere else in the game outside of 1-2 units or abilities that only effect one thing (like doom being like the best power in the game).
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Post by: Xenomancers
Ice_can wrote: Marmatag wrote:Martel732 wrote:Yet, he seems to be used with vehicles more often.
Also, how many points does he need to buff to be worthwhile? Obviously, there will have to be units outside the buff in order to play objective missions.
He's only near vehicles because that's the best stuff in the SM codex.
And this is where mathhammer breaks down.
Assuming you're hitting on 3s, and ideally wounding on 4s (meaning, you've got the right S for the right T, and you're not over-killing).
Guilliman chance to hit and wound: (1-(2/6)^2)*(1-(3/6)^2) = 24/36
Chapter Master Captain + Lieutenant: (1-(2/6)^2)*(3/6 + (1/6)*(3/6)) = 18/36
So Guilliman is giving you a slight increase, at a cost of 400 versus 170.
Thus, a non-Guilliman gunline has 1830 points to work with, versus 1600 for Guilliman.
Let's assume that you need 200 points outside of the bubble for Scouts, and literally everything else is wedged inside that bubble.
In the end, that works out to a net advantage of 933.33 efficiency 'score' on your points to 815 for another chapter.
At the end of the day, if the Space Marine tactics applied to everything - not just tacticals and dreadnoughts - there would be much better choices than Ultramarines and Guilliman. His comparative efficiency boost is minor, but because all of the chapter-specific stratagems and tactics are essentially complete garbage, it's worth taking him for this small increase at the cost of stratagems, tactics, etc.
If Raven Guard tactics applied to everything, they would be a no-brainer. If Imperial Fists tactics applied to everything, they would also be a better choice. It's also worth noting that you could take advantage of a better warlord trait for gunlines too. Storm of Fire, for example, would work well as it gives you additional chances at AP which i'm not accounting for here.
but thats the other thing you don't use Bobby G to use the right weapons for a target its to abuse the aura to make heavy bolters and assualt cannons wound like lascannons. So it's hard to really calculate the efficiency of the buff as the list has to be built to maximise abuse of rerolls to be competitive. Like seriously can any other chapter make a repulsor with all s5 s6 shooting work in a tac list?
Not really. Better off with full lascannon build in non gman lists. Though I basically always bring the 2 hull las cannons when playing with Gman. You still need the lascannons.
Gman and repulsors have good synergy.
They move about the same speed and Gman can keep them buffed while they both get into effective range. Repulsors can stay with gman all game because they have fly keyword. Plus they give him character protection.
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Post by: DarthDiggler
The meta is built around anti-horde right now, hence why G-man and vehicles is a great combination.
Str 5 weapons are the sweet spot. The poster who talked about rerolling wounding on 5’s is spot on. It’s the best. Mostly because those str 5-6 weapons are putting out a ton of shots to reroll as opposed to higher strength weapons who have a lower volume of fire.
I had two separate players lament that they wished I had fewer shots with higher ap. The Riptide player and Knight players couldn’t use their invulnerable save boosting powers because I only ever decreased armor saves by 1. I made them make a ton of 3+ saves as opposed to fewer 3+ saves. It was going to be a 3+ save no matter what weapons I brought so volume won out in both cases.
108023
Post by: Marmatag
Wounding on 4s rerolling 1s:
(3/6) + (1/6)(3/6) = 21/36
Wounding on 5s rerolling 1s:
(2/6) + (1/6)(2/6) = 14/36
Would you trade this wounding inefficiency against T7 & T8 for an army wide -1 to hit, a better Warlord trait, and the Raven Guard specific "deep strike" stratagem?
Answer: Yes.
Guilliman doesn't provide a level of efficiency that isn't there, he just provides the best buff considering there are no real other alternatives.
And you're not seeing people spam T7 & T8. Dark Eldar + Eldar Soup doesn't have T8 anywhere, Imperial Guard + Custodes doesn't have anything T8... many meta lists don't bother with it. You'll have issues wounding Knights, and that's basically it from a meta standpoint. And the extra points you pick up can be invested in something that fights T8.
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Post by: Martel732
That's basically how my stalkers slowly chew up riptides.
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Post by: Bharring
This is what was so scary about the Assault Cannon before CA: huge ROF with decent S and AP-1. That's what makes for a scary weapon these days.
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Post by: Martel732
The dissy cannon just throws on -3 ap for extra salt in the wound.
105713
Post by: Insectum7
jcd386 wrote: Marmatag wrote:Martel732 wrote:Yet, he seems to be used with vehicles more often.
Also, how many points does he need to buff to be worthwhile? Obviously, there will have to be units outside the buff in order to play objective missions.
He's only near vehicles because that's the best stuff in the SM codex.
And this is where mathhammer breaks down.
Assuming you're hitting on 3s, and ideally wounding on 4s (meaning, you've got the right S for the right T, and you're not over-killing).
Guilliman chance to hit and wound: (1-(2/6)^2)*(1-(3/6)^2) = 24/36
Chapter Master Captain + Lieutenant: (1-(2/6)^2)*(3/6 + (1/6)*(3/6)) = 18/36
So Guilliman is giving you a slight increase, at a cost of 400 versus 170.
Thus, a non-Guilliman gunline has 1830 points to work with, versus 1600 for Guilliman.
Let's assume that you need 200 points outside of the bubble for Scouts, and literally everything else is wedged inside that bubble.
In the end, that works out to a net advantage of 933.33 efficiency 'score' on your points to 815 for another chapter.
At the end of the day, if the Space Marine tactics applied to everything - not just tacticals and dreadnoughts - there would be much better choices than Ultramarines and Guilliman. His comparative efficiency boost is minor, but because all of the chapter-specific stratagems and tactics are essentially complete garbage, it's worth taking him for this small increase at the cost of stratagems, tactics, etc.
If Raven Guard tactics applied to everything, they would be a no-brainer. If Imperial Fists tactics applied to everything, they would also be a better choice. It's also worth noting that you could take advantage of a better warlord trait for gunlines too. Storm of Fire, for example, would work well as it gives you additional chances at AP which i'm not accounting for here.
It's also worth noting that if you do the math for things wounding on 5+ or worse, Roboute pulls farther ahead. This is why Str 5+ is ideal for roboute lists (hello fire raptors and repulsors), because you don't mind wounding anything in the game on 5s if you get to reroll wounds and it massively increases the damage output of those weapons, which tend to already be the best weapons in the game due to how AP works and how many invuls there are.
Its good to see this pointed out. Gman is crucial for lower strength weapons, but a Lieutenant gets you halfway to Gman if you're looking at 3+ to wound. The optimal weapons wind up shifting around. I stick with lots of Plasma for those 3+s.
I half agree with the invuln thing. I wind up having to punch through cover alot so the extra AP helps. That and those Custodes bikes are rocking 2+ anyways.
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Post by: Bharring
Rerolling 1s on a 5+:
(2/6) + (1/6)(2/6) = 14/36
Rerolling misses on a 5+:
(2/6) + (4/6)(2/6) = 20/36
So on the wounding side, rerolling all failed wounds (Gman or DOOM) is nearly a 50% improvement above rerolling 1s - when wounding on a 5+.
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Post by: Xenomancers
Another huge downer for Gman is you still have to fill your HQ spots. The only character that isn't redundant is the libby. Plus we have the worst powers in the game. Where as an eldar player - you take 2 HQ's - you get 2 awesome psychic trees and guess what...you still reroll hits and wounds if you want with a really powerful unit that's better costed than anything in the space marine army.
If Gman was an HQ (he should be) He would be a lot better.
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Post by: Bharring
"you still reroll hits and wounds if you want with a really powerful unit that's better costed than anything in the space marine army."
Reroll hits with *a* unit. Reroll wounds targetting *a* unit. Aura allows for far more units to get that benefit.
108023
Post by: Marmatag
Bharring wrote:Rerolling 1s on a 5+:
(2/6) + (1/6)(2/6) = 14/36
Rerolling misses on a 5+:
(2/6) + (4/6)(2/6) = 20/36
So on the wounding side, rerolling all failed wounds (Gman or DOOM) is nearly a 50% improvement above rerolling 1s - when wounding on a 5+.
Yes, and that clearly would not offset good army-wide tactics.
Guilliman is just the most efficient choice because marines are forced to make a one dimensional choice when building their armies, because the tactics are garbage. The Ultramarines tactic is just... so bad.
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Post by: Bharring
People prefer 50% more firepower over 100% more durability by a wide margin every time it's come up. So why would people take -1-to-be-hit over 50% more killy on the things they need dead?
108023
Post by: Marmatag
Bharring wrote:People prefer 50% more firepower over 100% more durability by a wide margin every time it's come up. So why would people take -1-to-be-hit over 50% more killy on the things they need dead?
But it's not 50% more firepower, that's an illusion. It's 50% more accurate firepower. Three -2 to hit Thunderhawks would be problematic, rerolls nonwithstanding. Besides, you don't need wound rerolls to employ double hellfire/double krakk, just hit rerolls. And frankly if you're using 3 predators you've already got Killshot going for you. Seeing one of them live to bottom of turn 1 would be a colossal boon. Durability is the difference between a predator killshot and 2 crappy predators doing feth all for the game. Or perhaps 3 vindicators, for the possibility of redundacrunk mortal wounds.
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Post by: Bharring
Wounding X% more is X% more firepower, provided all else stays the same. Whether you're hitting 50% of the time, 95% of the time, or even 0% of the time, it's still the same. That's just how math works.
Now, it could be argued that being 25%/33% more survivable (with a -1-to-hit tactic) might be worth more, but with people prefering 50% more firepower over 100% more durability, that's going to be a *really* hard sell.
27131
Post by: jcd386
In the end, things like the ravenguard tactic (and more importantly their stratagem being overpowered) and roboute are the only things holding SM up, even a little bit. We can argue which one is better...but i don't see the point. Things like special characters and chapter tactics are only the last 20% or so of the balance issues, and some of them not being terrible doesn't help to fix the other issues.
Think of it like this: if you removed all chapter tactics, special characters, and stratagems from the game, space marines (and their many iterations) would still be terrible compared to everyone else because they have the least valuable stats in the game, and do not translate well into the edition.
And they will continue to suffer until they either receive a drastic (think 15-20%) points reduction, or massive re-writes to their special rules and abilities.
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Post by: Marmatag
It's not 50% more firepower.
Because 10 shots can't produce 15 wounds.
It's 50% more efficiency. 50% more firepower is *always* better than 50% more efficiency, because the expected value stays the same, yet the possibility for more damage exists.
71534
Post by: Bharring
Depends on your definition of 'firepower'. I had defined it as "what the guns are going to do". You're using the definition of "Max of what the guns can do". By your definition, your numbers are accurate.
I'm not sure it's widely agreed that potential for damage is greater than reliability at the same expected value. I'm fairly certain most people would take 50% increased expected value of casualties for the same price as 50% increased number of shots. It's still 50% more killing, which is what people have placed above 100% more survivability. The difference in terms doesn't materially alter the tradeoff.
JCD,
If you balanced Marines in a vaccum without special characters/traits/etc, and balanced them against other factions without their specials too, you would then need to make sure applying the specials was even across the whole game. Having 1 fair balance point is hard. But having 1 that transforms into yet another via an asymetric change (even if traits/characters *were* completely identical, they'd impact different factions differently) is insanely *more* difficult.
If you balanced Marines vs other factions *with* their specials, obviously Marines would then be OP with their specials.
The one caveat is that you could, in theory, balance the specials such that they cost what they provide. THis way, you balance with both sides not having specials, then each added character or trait is balanced to not upset that balance. Unfortunately, they keep getting that very wrong (see: Bobby G). And balancing Traits isn't going to happen, as it's really hard to balance free rules.
I really hope they find a balance where SM are balanced whether or not they take Bobby G, and where all their traits are mid-tier. I want a demicompany of any chapter to be a mid-tier army. We're not close to that. I want no special character or army trait to be autotake or autolose.
27131
Post by: jcd386
Bharring wrote:Depends on your definition of 'firepower'. I had defined it as "what the guns are going to do". You're using the definition of "Max of what the guns can do". By your definition, your numbers are accurate.
I'm not sure it's widely agreed that potential for damage is greater than reliability at the same expected value. I'm fairly certain most people would take 50% increased expected value of casualties for the same price as 50% increased number of shots. It's still 50% more killing, which is what people have placed above 100% more survivability. The difference in terms doesn't materially alter the tradeoff.
JCD,
If you balanced Marines in a vaccum without special characters/traits/etc, and balanced them against other factions without their specials too, you would then need to make sure applying the specials was even across the whole game. Having 1 fair balance point is hard. But having 1 that transforms into yet another via an asymetric change (even if traits/characters *were* completely identical, they'd impact different factions differently) is insanely *more* difficult.
If you balanced Marines vs other factions *with* their specials, obviously Marines would then be OP with their specials.
The one caveat is that you could, in theory, balance the specials such that they cost what they provide. THis way, you balance with both sides not having specials, then each added character or trait is balanced to not upset that balance. Unfortunately, they keep getting that very wrong (see: Bobby G). And balancing Traits isn't going to happen, as it's really hard to balance free rules.
I really hope they find a balance where SM are balanced whether or not they take Bobby G, and where all their traits are mid-tier. I want a demicompany of any chapter to be a mid-tier army. We're not close to that. I want no special character or army trait to be autotake or autolose.
My point is that if you balanced everything without their special rules, you would be 80-90% of the way to balancing them with their special rules.
I think it's unlikely that any code will ever have more than one or two chapter tactics that is "top tier", but i think that if we got to the point where that was the only balance issue the game had, we'd be in a pretty good place.
71534
Post by: Bharring
I really miss the index. I'd pay 17ppm for my DAs to have that balance point back. It felt a lot more fair. And Marines felt a lot more right.
90435
Post by: Slayer-Fan123
Bharring wrote:I really miss the index. I'd pay 17ppm for my DAs to have that balance point back. It felt a lot more fair. And Marines felt a lot more right.
You're not serious are you? Conscripts alone proved how bad the index armies are. Then you have issues with Necrons, Deathwatch, Tyranids...
Balance was bad. Seriously.
95818
Post by: Stux
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Bharring wrote:I really miss the index. I'd pay 17ppm for my DAs to have that balance point back. It felt a lot more fair. And Marines felt a lot more right.
You're not serious are you? Conscripts alone proved how bad the index armies are. Then you have issues with Necrons, Deathwatch, Tyranids...
Balance was bad. Seriously.
Yeah, balance was bad. But relatively speaking marines were in a better spot, so that was fairer right?
81208
Post by: Median Trace
Not to shift gears here, but I was curious what people thought the best units in the dex were independent of Chapter Tactics and Bobby G? For example, are Repulsors good without Bobby G? I am not a super experienced competitive player and there seems to be a lot of good insight here from posters.
11860
Post by: Martel732
Repulsors are NOT good without Bobby G.
Devastators armed with heavy bolters or missile launchers are interesting because of the FAQ ruling on ammo cherubs and hellfire rounds/flakk missile.
Marine assault units for the most part are awful, forcing them to be a largely shooting army, and without Bobby G, most of their shooting falls flat, unfortunately.
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