Midnightdeathblade wrote:
I have a hard time with believing people when they say 7th edition core rules were awful, they simply arent.

The fundamental core 7E rules have tons of issues, from missions to unit types, gratuitous tables and random rolling, unnecessary mechanics (challenges) and more. The entire vehicle system for example (why do they need two overlapping kill mechanics...and why do they not get a save if they have wounds? why are vehicles the only units in the game that care about facing but immobile artillery and giant monsters and heavy weapons units do not?). Weapon scaling. The Jink mechanic. Wound allocation.

8E is faaaaaaaaaar from perfect, but as a basic core ruleset for a game really is better than 7E and handles the scale 40k has grown to much better.

As for the granularity that some are talking about, statistics such as initiative, toughness, and a myriad of special rules unique to HH provide the various legions with the quirks that they need to keep them at an arms length from each other in similarity. Otherwise it would very much be 18 cases of "the marines are green so they can re-roll ones" or "these marines are dark blue so they're scary." I understand 8th has differences between Space Marine chapters, but they are on no way close to level that the HH differentiates the Legions.

These would appear to be something you'd handle in the codex/army book section, not really related to whatever core rules are in use.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
I have a hard time with believing people when they say 7th edition core rules were awful, they simply arent.

The fundamental core 7E rules have tons of issues, from missions to unit types, gratuitous tables and random rolling, unnecessary mechanics (challenges) and more. The entire vehicle system for example (why do they need two overlapping kill mechanics...and why do they not get a save if they have wounds? why are vehicles the only units in the game that care about facing but immobile artillery and giant monsters and heavy weapons units do not?). Weapon scaling. The Jink mechanic. Wound allocation.

8E is faaaaaaaaaar from perfect, but as a basic core ruleset for a game really is better than 7E and handles the scale 40k has grown to much better.

You say tomato, I say I would greatly prefer it you accepted my opinion as valid instead of your own.

Some people like the complexity of 7th edition more than 8th. Get over it.

 Vaktathi wrote:

As for the granularity that some are talking about, statistics such as initiative, toughness, and a myriad of special rules unique to HH provide the various legions with the quirks that they need to keep them at an arms length from each other in similarity. Otherwise it would very much be 18 cases of "the marines are green so they can re-roll ones" or "these marines are dark blue so they're scary." I understand 8th has differences between Space Marine chapters, but they are on no way close to level that the HH differentiates the Legions.

These would appear to be something you'd handle in the codex/army book section, not really related to whatever core rules are in use.

Technicalities. They did a fine job with the rules and it doesn't matter how they organized them. If there was a big problem, no one would play the game.

I appreciate actual examples of someone's issues with 7th, Ill give some feedback on those.

Missions: I agree the 40k 7th missions were pretty uninspired, I wasn't considering them however because they have changed for HH and are quite good I would say.

Vehicles: I think vehicles preform well in 7th, they have to be positioned well to be effective. Im assuming the overlapping kill mechanics you're talking about are destroying a vehicle through stripping Hull points or straight up blowing it up. I like this system in 7th because they increased the explode result to a 7+, which requires use of an AP 1 or AP 2 weapon. It adds extra strategic choices to the game, "where should I use my AP weapons, or can I rely on my other weapons to whittle that vehicle down?" Vehicles can be easy targets yes, lacking any saves is a trade off for the many benefits they bring, and you can always try to get them in cover.

Random Rolling: Im a large supporter of the phrase "Random does not equal fun". For choosing Psychic powers, mission types, or warlord traits, our gaming group just chooses rather than rolling randomly.

Unnecessary Mechanics: I do believe Challenges serve a purpose, I feel they were put in place to encourage a more narrative style of game play, although this is not always upheld, challenges have their place. Now Look Out Sir on the other hand should be removed from the rule system, it adds an entire extra layer of dice rolling before saving throws are even made and can be easily abused. To fix this issue, we like to ignore the "take casualties closest to closest rule" instead the owner of the unit taking damage chooses the casualty, however it must be within the range of the firing weapon or weapons. This eliminates the need for Look Out Sir. We do still resolve casualties closest to closest when resolving Overwatch though. (makes sense).

Jink: There's nothing wrong with Jink, in fact if fulfills your complaint for vehicles not having a reliable saving throw, and it is balanced upon the trade off that you will have limited your shooting effectiveness the following turn.

Weapon Scaling: Im confused with this statement.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Why cant people just leave 8th with 40k and 7th with HH? Both rulesets work for their respective games, leave it be.

Because with 30k sticking in 7th, I have been unable to get a game in since the 8th edition rulebook came out. I could play against 40k armies before, now I can only play against 30k armies. The small handful of other people in my area that played 30k are in the same spot, so several sold their 30k armies on ebay. Why keep an army around that just sits in a case gathering dust?


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 ArbitorIan wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

People are saying that though dude, thankfully not here really but when someone says "its better in every way" they are wilfully ignoring its shortcomings, they are doing this as they are generally 40k players that bought or want to buy a HH army to play 40k and hey.. its their money, who am I to deny them this, but on the flip side why are they to try and push for something the actual 30k players dont want, I know I will be accused of using a "no true scotsman" fallacy but they are not actual 30k players so why should we listen to their opinion?

- I know my Heresy interaction has gone down despite it being my favourite setting. To say those people aren't 'true' Heresy players is a bit insulting, and to say 'polls on forums still mostly frequented by people who like 7ed more show that people like 7ed more' is a bit silly. FW should listen to their opinion because it's a large group of gamers saying they would play Heresy and buy Heresy if that change was made. They have to weigh that against how many customers they think they'd lose by switching to 8ed, and how many new players they'd attract.

This is an excellent point. The people who have quit 30k entirely and sold their armies on ebay are no longer around to vote in those polls. The polls reflect the opinion of the people who stuck with 30k, which means they probably either prefer 7th or don't have a choice anyway. I don't know anyone that still has a 30k army or plays it any more since the change to 8th.

Since the polls were done across 30k and 40k sites and FB pages, no, it’s not a good point, unless you are referring to those people that have left all online presence and games workshop completely, in those cases we can’t know, what we do know and you all keep ignoring is that the majority of primary 30k players want 7th to stay, but the primary 40k players want it to change to allow them to play 8th with their armies, it’s like demanding space hulk change completely to have the same rules as 8th, they are different games, HH and 40k were ALWAYS different games, they just shared a rulebook with heavy adjustments in key areas.

If you bought a 30k army to play 40k I feel for you, but you were warned repeatedly in EVERY black book that came out that they were not intended to be used together.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:


I've played since late 4th. Formation and detachments are not meaningless, they left a bad taste in many people's mouths in 7th edition. They became the focus of play and army builds be it a tournament or a friendly game. If you honestly think formations and detachments didn't impact the game on a large scale Id have to ask you a more specific version of the question you asked me, did you even play 7th?

You misunderstand my point. Formation are "meaningless" in that they are red herring, a distraction from the core problems of 7th that have largely existed since 3rd. I've gone into them at least twice in this thread (and been ignored each time).

 Formosa wrote:
Since the polls were done across 30k and 40k sites and FB pages, no, it’s not a good point, unless you are referring to those people that have left all online presence and games workshop completely, in those cases we can’t know, what we do know and you all keep ignoring is that the majority of primary 30k players want 7th to stay, but the primary 40k players want it to change to allow them to play 8th with their armies, it’s like demanding space hulk change completely to have the same rules as 8th, they are different games, HH and 40k were ALWAYS different games, they just shared a rulebook with heavy adjustments in key areas.

If you bought a 30k army to play 40k I feel for you, but you were warned repeatedly in EVERY black book that came out that they were not intended to be used together.

The wishes of the existing community don't matter as a foundation of decision making. The only concern FW and GW have is generating profit. So the corporate overlords will take a look into the future and have a decision to make. Will catering to the existing community have the most room for future growth or will changing things lead to more growth? Stagnation is not typically seen as a way to growth. So FW can try to shake off stagnation and increase the customer base by releasing a bunch of new models. That however requires the expenditure of resources. It's much easier to shake up the ruleset and broaden the customer base for the models to those playing 40k already. Changing the ruleset is a much smaller resource investment.

There's of course another option and that is that FW/GW don't see HH as a source of profit and no longer give a feth about it. That will be the worst option possible as it continues it's slow decay from neglect.

 techsoldaten wrote:


You say tomato, I say I would greatly prefer it you accepted my opinion as valid instead of your own.

Some people like the complexity of 7th edition more than 8th. Get over it.

Well, that post made no attempt to address anything I actually said.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:

I appreciate actual examples of someone's issues with 7th, Ill give some feedback on those.

Missions: I agree the 40k 7th missions were pretty uninspired, I wasn't considering them however because they have changed for HH and are quite good I would say.

I dont have my AoD book on me but I do recall some of the missions being better on that end (along with 7E's most abusive psychic shennanigans getting nerfed in AoD which I did like 7E invisibility was 200% stupid) , though the basic 7E core missions have lots of problems, not the least of which was the Eternal War missions being copy-pasted from 6E without adapting any of them to account for scoring changes, so while in 6E Big Guns and Scouring gave an incentive to hunt HS/FA units, they also got special scoring abilities in 6E, but in 7E everything could score so they just became liabilities

Vehicles: I think vehicles preform well in 7th, they have to be positioned well to be effective. Im assuming the overlapping kill mechanics you're talking about are destroying a vehicle through stripping Hull points or straight up blowing it up. I like this system in 7th because they increased the explode result to a 7+, which requires use of an AP 1 or AP 2 weapon. It adds extra strategic choices to the game, "where should I use my AP weapons, or can I rely on my other weapons to whittle that vehicle down?" Vehicles can be easy targets yes, lacking any saves is a trade off for the many benefits they bring, and you can always try to get them in cover.

The issuss with HP's were big in 7E. Vehicles, unless they had access to Jink or an invul of some sort (or were free), underperformed across the board in 7E on the whole. This was a major bugbear of the edition. Most vehicles were effectively just W2/3 T6/7/8 units with no save, where any hit that exceeded the minimum required to wound would disable them in some way to boot

Unfortunately in practice there was not much depth with HP's, what they did was incentivize spamming multishot weapons that wounded infantry on 2's and could strip HP's, while making actual big dedicated antitank units some of the least effective actual AT components of an army (things like Vanquishers, Railgun Hammerheads, etc) as they lacked the volume to strip HP's while the damage table was too unreliable to rely on for kills, particularly against medium armor where antiinfantry weapons were just as capable and a fraction of the cost. Volume of fire was almost always preferable to quality of fire.

The interaction between "CC autohits rear armor" and HP's, coupled with the nearly universal rear AV10 and no save, also made vehices practically auto-killed by anything making base contact (mitigated a bit by the later grenade FAQ nerf).

Ultimately this made vehicles not only some of the easiest units to kill, but also to disable (since the damage table was still there) and the hardest to use since they were so fragile and had to deal with firing arcs and armor facings. No other units required any sort of positioning in the same way, even units filling the same roles, its why being an MC was considered simply flat out better than being a vehicle in 7E for things like the Iron Circle or Ripdtides.

Random Rolling: Im a large supporter of the phrase "Random does not equal fun". For choosing Psychic powers, mission types, or warlord traits, our gaming group just chooses rather than rolling randomly.

Yeah, choosing is a much better way to handle that, I wish theyd just done that in 7E.

Unnecessary Mechanics: I do believe Challenges serve a purpose, I feel they were put in place to encourage a more narrative style of game play, although this is not always upheld, challenges have their place.

I get that, but mostly it became a minigame of how to either hide or snipe characters and casualties, not really a narrative element.

More to the point however, on tables that may have two companies of infantry and a tank battalion or a lance of Superhavy walkers on the table, where strategic artillery units and are being brought to bear and aircraft are being represented...why are individual contests with blades something we pause the game to concentrate on?

They're just inappropriate to the scale of the game, at least in most cases (a duel between Primarchs...fine, but do we really care about sergeants duking it out?)

Now Look Out Sir on the other hand should be removed from the rule system, it adds an entire extra layer of dice rolling before saving throws are even made and can be easily abused. To fix this issue, we like to ignore the "take casualties closest to closest rule" instead the owner of the unit taking damage chooses the casualty, however it must be within the range of the firing weapon or weapons. This eliminates the need for Look Out Sir. We do still resolve casualties closest to closest when resolving Overwatch though. (makes sense).

Yeah, wound allocation was made very overcomplicated in 7E, owner assigning casualties really does work better in most cases.

Jink: There's nothing wrong with Jink, in fact if fulfills your complaint for vehicles not having a reliable saving throw, and it is balanced upon the trade off that you will have limited your shooting effectiveness the following turn.

Jink absolutely was a help for vehicles to mitigate issues with HP's, but it was only available to *some* vehicles and had wonky effects even there. Among those, it didn't effect passengers (so your transport could be Jinking and evading all over the place, but the contents can shoot out at full unaffected BS). Initially, for the first part of the edition, you could even Jink while immobilized. For the most common Jink reliant vehicles, the snapshot penalty was not a huge deal, as either their passengers could still shoot or they'd have multishot/twinlinked weapons to take the sting out.

Between Skimmer and Non Skimmer vehicles, Jink was the difference between viability and sitting on the shelf. Jink made vehicles functional on an HP battlefield. Jink compared with Smoke Launchers for example was a no brainer. Smoke was only a 5+ instead of a 4+, could only be used once (and in some cases had to be purchased), prevented *all* firing (not just snapshots, also no Advancing) and applied to passengers as well, and had to be declared in advance regardless of what the enemy actually shoots at, instead of only used when the enemy has already declared a target.

With respect to units like Bikes, the forced snapshots often were a minimal tradeoff as units either had twin linked guns to mitigate some of that or tons of shots or both, or were more interested with closing to assault where Jink had no tradeoff. The downside was rarely meaningful enough to require consideration in most cases (particularly with Marine units) and the ability to Jink against Overwatch was especially silly given the supposed tradeoff. The snapshot shooting was rarely enough of a counterbalance to the on-demand, as-necessary 4+ save.

Weapon Scaling: Im confused with this statement.

Basically every weapon does only one wound no matter what, the S/T range was capped at 10, and lots of clumping in the middle occurred. As a result, stat ranges for units have to be further confined, weapon effectiveness is wonky without a Damage stat (e.g. a Lascannon can only ever do one wound), and additional mechanics and rules are needed to accommodate that (Destroyer, Instant Death, etc), and we ended up with a outsized heavy emphasis mid-strength multishot weapons over everything else.

Blast weapons and their issues also fit in here. Blast templates are fun in a skirmish game. When dealing with a dozen or more in a company level game, they get exhausting and become prone to issues. They also ran into issues in the 3E-7E paradigm against single targets, where a Demolisher siege cannon shell that could wipe a unit of Centurions, Terminators or Custodes off the table would only ever take 1 HP off a vehicle (barring the low explosion chance) or do 1 wound to a monster.

To put it in perspective, where a 7E Titan cannon may have been a "D" weapon with a Massive Blast template and Ignores Cover, in 8E this can all be accommodated in the basic weapons profile, something like ""Heavy 2D6 S17 AP-5 Damage 2D6". It uses the same weapons profile as any other basic weapon, and achieves the same thing as the 7E weapon by just using bigger numbers, without needing templates or special tables and additional rules.

Random Rolling: Im a large supporter of the phrase "Random does not equal fun". For choosing Psychic powers, mission types, or warlord traits, our gaming group just chooses rather than rolling randomly.

Totally agree regardless of what edition of the rules we're talking here. Nothing better than getting a melee trait on your shooty warlord who needs to avoid close combat.

What confuses me the most is that I'd argue 8th edition is a poor edition when it comes to tournaments and meta-gaming...and is a far superior edition when it comes to narrative and telling a story. 8th has produced far more amusing and notable moments in gaming than previous editions - I'd have to go back to 2nd to get the level of amusement I get out of the game.

Why I find that baffling is that every podcast about HH espouses the hobby and narrative/campaign gaming vs. tournaments (and I listen to "most" of the good HH podcasts..religiously because I like the setting and presenters). When you remove the WAAC/meta-chasing, you'll find that 8th is a very entertaining experience, particularly with like-minded friends. I frequently play CSM vs. other CSM where we field predominantly HH related units (Leviathans, Contemptors, Sicarans, basic marines, etc.). It's good fun and doesn't lack for missing the minor complexities of 7th (which were not tactical or strategic complexitites but band-aids on game mechanics which had been abused for 15 years).

Furthermore...there would be nothing stopping ardent HH fans from simply using templates and vehicles facings in 8th if you so desired. The core rules are much more user-friendly and particularly good at house-ruling. My group doesn't play 40K the way anyone here would recognize it. That's perhaps 8th's largest strength. I see a vast portion of the HH community dedicated to user-made content, from codices to units, to playing Centurion instead of normal scaled games, etc. In my mind HH and 8th would actually fit perfectly.

8th breaks down in tournaments, with meta-chasing, with allies and broken combinations. Much as HH was a streamlined and simplified world for 7th edition, so it would be for 8th. While I miss the complexity of 2nd...I also miss the scale. While I loved the indepth nature of that ruleset (far superior to 3rd etc.) it would be impossible to use at the level/size/scope of a current game of 40K, and 30K. I think in the end I'm just surprised because the "spirit" of 8th...is much more in line with the HH community than the 40K community.

 Formosa wrote:
Thats because I am right, I am not one of those people that is shy about admitting that I know a subject better than another person, call it a personality fault if you want. So yes when I say that 8th cannot handle the granularity that is needed for HH then its a fact, one needs only to look at the respective rulebooks to see this is a fact, large chunks of rules that are needed to keep the theme and feel of HH as it stand now simply do not exist within 8th, any shift would reduce the rules as 8th was intended to do, a lot of 40k armies took a hit in theme due to 8th, there is no reason to assume HH would not take the exact same hit.

Yup. The personality fault is called 'arrogance'.

Thankfully, I'm not one of those people that is shy about admitting that I know a subject better than another person either, and I've therefore decided I know the subject better then you. So yes when I say that 8th can handle the granularity that is needed for HH then its a fact, one needs only to look at the current 40k rulebooks to see this is a fact, large chunks of rules from 7ed are add-ons, and not needed to keep the theme and feel of HH as it stands, and any shift would reduce the bloating (as 8th was intended to do). A lot of 40k armies took a cut in sheer volume of rules while retaining their core theme in 8th, there is no reason to assume HH would not take the exact same hit.

Hey look! I've randomly declared I know more than you, therefore all my opinions are facts too! That is TOTALLY how facts work.

Everything I stated was factual, you may not like or agree with it but that does not matter, as for the "true heresy players" comment.

"why are they to try and push for something the actual 30k players dont want, I know I will be accused of using a "no true scotsman" fallacy but they are not actual 30k players so why should we listen to their opinion?"

I am reposting it as you clearly need to read it again, its very clear I am talking about 40k players that dont even play HH, so again, why should we be forced to change to suit people who dont even play the game, so given that HH is growing then it seems FW made the right choice by not switching, as before I do still fully expect a change to come in the future though.

Everything you posted is anecdotal. Some Heresy tournaments are reporting growth in attendance. There is no other evidence that the game, the sales, the scene is growing. There is lots of evidence of people moving away. We don't know the sum total of all that. To conclude that, because some tournaments are selling out, the scene and game as a whole is growing is conjecture.

You're talking about 40k players 'who don't even play 30k'. But when? People who don't play RIGHT NOW? If they used to play, but now mostly play 40k because of the switch, do you get to discount them too and write them off as just '40k players'?


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 Elbows wrote:
8th breaks down in tournaments, with meta-chasing, with allies and broken combinations. Much as HH was a streamlined and simplified world for 7th edition, so it would be for 8th. While I miss the complexity of 2nd...I also miss the scale. While I loved the indepth nature of that ruleset (far superior to 3rd etc.) it would be impossible to use at the level/size/scope of a current game of 40K, and 30K. I think in the end I'm just surprised because the "spirit" of 8th...is much more in line with the HH community than the 40K community.

Totally agree. One of the best things about 8ed is the increased amount of 'stuff' the basic infantry model can do, which gives some pretty fluffy in-game events. I also agree that it breaks down when you try and play it competitively. In theory, that shouldn't be a problem in Heresy, because Heresy players are all super-narrative and just love building themed lists to play narrative games.

In practise, from my memory of attending Heresy events, about 20-25% of players are the same competitive arseholes hiding under the narrative excuse. That's why you see so many of certain units and Rites and so few of others. There's a couple of Heresy podcasts that really encourage all of this, complaining about certain lists and people not playing for fun, and then taking the most 'optimal' units and winning every game at an event. Top tip: if you're taking a balanced army to a narrative event, you should probably find you win about half your games.

I would agree that non-fluff competitive players completely exist in 30k/HH events.

25% is probably about the right number to from my experience. Most your games will be decent fun matches if you dont bring the power game list....but then about 25% of your matches will basically suck as you face a total power gamer 30k player even in "narrative" events.

This will often be masquerading as fluffy Solar Auxilia, Iron hands all tanks w/super heavies......or lists with 3 leviathons and a flyer wing of 3 flyers with kraken penetrators to destroy all your armor the turn they arrive.

Stormlord with a ton of heavy weapon marines in the back is another cheese list I have seen.

Seen all of those lists in a fluffy narrative event.

All legal and all played by supposedly fluff/narrative 30k 7th ed players....so to say 30k HH 7th ed doesnt have competitive play issues is a lie.

You could also say anything with a Falchion super heavy is abit on the cheese side as that vehicle is one of the better/best super heavies in 7th ed. So ya 30k 7th ed has alot of issues for anything like fair/balanced play...that well FW will never fix because it takes them a year to do a simple FAQ for their own typo mistakes.

Yup. The personality fault is called 'arrogance'.

You can choose to confuse confidence with arrogance, but thats more about you than me.

Thankfully, I'm not one of those people that is shy about admitting that I know a subject better than another person either, and I've therefore decided I know the subject better then you. So yes when I say that 8th can handle the granularity that is needed for HH then its a fact, one needs only to look at the current 40k rulebooks to see this is a fact, large chunks of rules from 7ed are add-ons, and not needed to keep the theme and feel of HH as it stands, and any shift would reduce the bloating (as 8th was intended to do). A lot of 40k armies took a cut in sheer volume of rules while retaining their core theme in 8th, there is no reason to assume HH would not take the exact same hit.

You can decide that if you like, you would be wrong, but crack on, lack of key rules as pointed out mean that 30k would take a hit, but you know that, hence your terrible attempt at sarcasm.

Hey look! I've randomly declared I know more than you, therefore all my opinions are facts too! That is TOTALLY how facts work.

No random about it, I do know more about the subject than most people, does my confidence in my knowledge offend you, oh well

Everything you posted is anecdotal. Some Heresy tournaments are reporting growth in attendance. There is no other evidence that the game, the sales, the scene is growing. There is lots of evidence of people moving away. We don't know the sum total of all that. To conclude that, because some tournaments are selling out, the scene and game as a whole is growing is conjecture.

No its empirical, many polls across many sites showed a trend, again you dont like it because it doesnt fit your narrative of a declining HH due to staying with 7th, facts and feelings, im sure you know the saying that being said, right now the biggest threat to HH is FW regional pricing.

You're talking about 40k players 'who don't even play 30k'. But when? People who don't play RIGHT NOW? If they used to play, but now mostly play 40k because of the switch, do you get to discount them too and write them off as just '40k players'?

this poll was several months ago, so it would not be "now" it had options to cover this issue, 40k players were covered by people who had never played HH and had no intention to play 30k but still wanted the rules to change.

Totally agree. One of the best things about 8ed is the increased amount of 'stuff' the basic infantry model can do, which gives some pretty fluffy in-game events. I also agree that it breaks down when you try and play it competitively. In theory, that shouldn't be a problem in Heresy, because Heresy players are all super-narrative and just love building themed lists to play narrative games.

more sarcasm, but not untrue, HH players "generally" play more to narrative than competitive, thats one of the draws of the game, and just like 40k you get the douche bags taking advantage of that (again "generally", #notall competitive), 7th/8th are both terrible for competitive games, although 8th is getting better.

In practise, from my memory of attending Heresy events, about 20-25% of players are the same competitive arseholes hiding under the narrative excuse. That's why you see so many of certain units and Rites and so few of others. There's a couple of Heresy podcasts that really encourage all of this, complaining about certain lists and people not playing for fun, and then taking the most 'optimal' units and winning every game at an event. Top tip: if you're taking a balanced army to a narrative event, you should probably find you win about half your games.

now who is using anecdotes

just to put it in perspective you are talking about 1 or 2 people at an event, "20-25%" makes it sound like a lot of people, its not and yes there are a couple of podcasts that encourage this, but there are even more that rail against this kind of thing, a casual perusal of you tube, itunes, general internet podcasts/videos will show you this.

Taking a balanced army to a narrative event and winning half your games..... yes..... whats wrong with this? its a narrative event, its about the story, not winning (though its great when you do), if that is annoying you then i think you need to find another event to go to, you may prefer competitive events maybe?

 Formosa wrote:

Yup. The personality fault is called 'arrogance'.

You can choose to confuse confidence with arrogance, but thats more about you than me....No random about it, I do know more about the subject than most people, does my confidence in my knowledge offend you, oh well

Misplaced confidence is arrogance. As I said, you're wrong and I'm right so it's misplaced. I know this because 'I'm confident'.

Unless, of course, we're talking about subjective opinions here?

 Formosa wrote:
more sarcasm, but not untrue, HH players "generally" play more to narrative than competitive, thats one of the draws of the game, and just like 40k you get the douche bags taking advantage of that (again "generally", #notall competitive), 7th/8th are both terrible for competitive games, although 8th is getting better.

just to put it in perspective you are talking about 1 or 2 people at an event, "20-25%" makes it sound like a lot of people, its not and yes there are a couple of podcasts that encourage this, but there are even more that rail against this kind of thing, a casual perusal of you tube, itunes, general internet podcasts/videos will show you this.

Taking a balanced army to a narrative event and winning half your games..... yes..... whats wrong with this? its a narrative event, its about the story, not winning (though its great when you do), if that is annoying you then i think you need to find another event to go to, you may prefer competitive events maybe?

Yup. Generally, both Heresy and 40k players aren't 'competitive'. But there are a proportion that are. My argument is that, in my experience, the proportions are roughly the same, except the Heresy players deny it more. I've been to Heresy tournaments with 50/60+ people. That's not '1 or 2'.

And I think you misread my second point. Taking a balanced army to a narrative event and winning 50/50 is probably about right. Taking your army to a Heresy event, taking all the best models, winning the vast majority of your games (except when up against other 'definitely not competitive honest guv' lists) and then claiming to be a narrative player who hates the evil, competitive 40k scene is what I'm talking about.

Misplaced confidence is arrogance. As I said, you're wrong and I'm right so it's misplaced. I know this because 'I'm confident'.

Unless, of course, we're talking about subjective opinions here?

I thought it was pretty obvious we were talking about subjective opinions, the one time I mentioned objective opinion was this

"Try to look at both sets of rules objectively and then apply heresy to them, if your being honest you will see that 8ths overly simplistic rules do not fit well, so much would be lost for little to no gain as has happened with every single 40k army that shifted over."

If I didnt make that clear then thats my fault.

Yup. Generally, both Heresy and 40k players aren't 'competitive'. But there are a proportion that are. My argument is that, in my experience, the proportions are roughly the same, except the Heresy players deny it more. I've been to Heresy tournaments with 50/60+ people. That's not '1 or 2'.

In narrative tournaments, yep its usually 1 or 2 and usually the same blokes you see elsewhere, if you go to a competitive tournament then expect the 50+ you mentioned, were you at the GW tourney at warhammer world where the player was dennied the win due to bringing a warhound and putting it on a skyshield, the T.O. decided it was against the spirit of the tourney and the 2nd place guy won instead, if you bring a douche list to a friendly event, well then its up to the TO to enforce the spirit of the event and if you dont win because of it then its on you. (not specific you btw)

And I think you misread my second point. Taking a balanced army to a narrative event and winning 50/50 is probably about right. Taking your army to a Heresy event, taking all the best models, winning the vast majority of your games (except when up against other 'definitely not competitive honest guv' lists) and then claiming to be a narrative player who hates the evil, competitive 40k scene is what I'm talking about.

I know one of those players very well, doesnt matter what game he plays, he always tries to game the system to his advantage, we were playing a DND game with my american mates and I warned him that they dont tolerate min maxers, he took a min max character and kept trying to game the system, argue with the GM etc. and was asked to leave in the end.

these people exist and have their place, when i want a balls to the wall competitive game i play him.

like i said in the previous reply though its down to the TO/GM to sort this issue out, in local communities its somewhat easier though, dont play them.

Formosa- think you need to get out more...its a lot more than 1 or 2 players at the 30k events I've been to. I mean unless your going to an event with 10 or less players all the time lol.

You can walk around when people have their armies on display and just go yep several total competitive a-hole lists in the narrative event.

 Elbows wrote:
(...)
Why I find that baffling is that every podcast about HH espouses the hobby and narrative/campaign gaming vs. tournaments (and I listen to "most" of the good HH podcasts..religiously because I like the setting and presenters). When you remove the WAAC/meta-chasing, you'll find that 8th is a very entertaining experience, particularly with like-minded friends.
(...)
Furthermore...there would be nothing stopping ardent HH fans from simply using templates and vehicles facings in 8th if you so desired. The core rules are much more user-friendly and particularly good at house-ruling.
(...)
I think in the end I'm just surprised because the "spirit" of 8th...is much more in line with the HH community than the 40K community.

Apologies for the trimming; the quotes are getting long in this thread.

I’m glad it’s working for you and I agree that the 8th edition rules are a good base on which to add extra rules. That makes me think that if GW told FW to change HH to 8th, they could add a layer on top of it that would give me the added complexity I’m looking for.

That said, I have personally not found 8th 40k to be very satisfying. I think it’s mostly about the movement phase - I feel like it’s more straightforward, more railroaded. There are fewer choices to make because it’s more permissive about moving before shooting certain weapons, or splitting fire, or shooting units that you aren’t going to get into combat with. There’s less advantage to getting around the flanks of a typical vehicle (though 40k’s always under-emphasized flanking compared to pre-GW wargames or the old Specialist Games). I’m not happy with how cover works, and I think the return to 2nd-edition style save modifiers has reduced the paper-scissors-rock system that rewarded getting the right unit to the right place at the right time (broken codexes aside, this made Craftworld Eldar pretty fun to play during 3rd-7th because they took it to the extreme). And, purely a personal thing, I think the way command points are used feel very gimmicky and gamey.

But I maintain that FW had more important reasons to keep the old rules: available manpower, independence from the 40k studio (not having to react to FAQs that break certain 30k armies and take a year and a half for FW to react to), and letting FW give all the legions/factions rules under one system before moving on.

I genuinely don't think they'll pass up the opportunity to sell you another rulebook. The most likely outcome is both systems merge to 9th edition but don't expect it to look a whole lot different than 8th.

Carlisimo wrote:

I’m glad it’s working for you and I agree that the 8th edition rules are a good base on which to add extra rules. That makes me think that if GW told FW to change HH to 8th, they could add a layer on top of it that would give me the added complexity I’m looking for.

This might be probably the best solution - optional advanced rules. In this way you could play vs 8th edition 40k armies and it would satisfy (more or less) current 7th edition Horus Heresy fans.

The fact that there's an imagined problem in the first place is asinine.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
The fact that there's an imagined problem in the first place is asinine.

Imagined problem? The problem of not being able to find anyone that plays 30k since 40k switched to 8th is not imaginary for me.

 Toofast wrote:

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
The fact that there's an imagined problem in the first place is asinine.

Imagined problem? The problem of not being able to find anyone that plays 30k since 40k switched to 8th is not imaginary for me.

But how can that be? HH is thriving and going strong as others claim ...you must be making this up!

Horus Heresy is more or less dead where I live. Perhaps a few players who might be playing in their own home, but otherwise it is dead. The few who were playing were multi-using their models for 40k and 30k and after the rule switch that has kinda died. To be fair it's a small pool of people so the more multi-system you can use your models the better you are off finding a game.

Only half the player base could use their armies in both games anyway. I have an Emperor’s Children army; not much use for that in a 40k game.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Only half the player base could use their armies in both games anyway. I have an Emperor’s Children army; not much use for that in a 40k game.

Depends how many Kakophani you have, right? I actually have some Palatine Blades and Phoenix Terminators I use in my 40k EC army (as Chosen and Terminators).

Honestly, I think it's just how you set up your army. I use my Heresy Word Bearers army as CSM without much trouble - Terminators are Terminators, Marines are Marines, Characters are still characters, Gal Vorbak are Possessed, my vehicles just become 'Hellforged' versions, it's pretty self-explanatory.

agreed is some crossover...but a lot of special units for various legions have no equivalent in 40k right now.

Different weapon load outs an such allowed so if you built the unit for 30k its now pretty much unusable in 40k If you are trying to play WYSIWYG

Not to mention equipment esp for Chaos characters in 40k is much different from whats allowed on characters in 30k...no relic blades...and no thunderhammers at current. Volkite pretty much not allowed on anything but loyalist marines and super limited...just tartaros I think.

chaos45 wrote:
agreed is some crossover...but a lot of special units for various legions have no equivalent in 40k right now.

Different weapon load outs an such allowed so if you built the unit for 30k its now pretty much unusable in 40k If you are trying to play WYSIWYG

Not to mention equipment esp for Chaos characters in 40k is much different from whats allowed on characters in 30k...no relic blades...and no thunderhammers at current. Volkite pretty much not allowed on anything but loyalist marines and super limited...just tartaros I think.

Like I said, it depends how you build your army.

I know some people like to build it as a 'set' force and then, yeah, you'll have problems using it in 40k. But I tend to think of an army as a collection of models, and use a new list each time I play. In 30k, I might have a few big tactical squads, a plasma support squad and a missile launcher HS squad. In 40k that might become a few CSM squads with plasma and missile launchers in each (just as an example). My Gal Vorbak are fine as possessed, but I probably won't take my rotor cannon squad or jet bikes.

I'm not saying you can perfectly port the exact same army build over with all the same unit loadouts - I'm saying you can use 90% of the models in a WYSIWYG 40k army without a problem.

Y'know this whole argument of 'can't use my Heresy army in 8th' is rubbish right?
The models are the same, your tactical marines in Heresy will still be tactical/'normal' chaos marines in 8th. Your terminators may suffer depending on loadout, but tanks? Rules for them in 8th. Dreadnought? Rules for them in 8th.

What are you missing - Rites and named characters? Everything else can be converted.

I'm sorry but that excuse is frankly terrible now. The complaint there is people don't want to play different rule sets, or be restricted from using certain cheesy options in a format/system/setting they weren't designed for.

Almost all the unique units are different from 40k units.

As well as boarding marines-yes you can say they are combat shields or storm shields but those units in 40k are very different from 30k....esp when it comes to weapons allowed.

Also is 2 entire 30k armies with no rules in 40k- Solar Auxilia and Mechanicum.

So yes there is a lot that does not have 8th edition rules.

Personally I just like the 8th edition ruleset over 6th and 7th. 6th and 7th are just utter gak in my opinion and have little to nothing to add of value.

 Eldarsif wrote:
Personally I just like the 8th edition ruleset over 6th and 7th. 6th and 7th are just utter gak in my opinion and have little to nothing to add of value.

If that is the case, then 30K is not for you. Some of us really like 7th ed rules in 30K and have zero interest in moving to 8th ed/40K rules.

8th is just utter gak in my opinion and have little to nothing to add of value for 30K.

chaos45 wrote:
Formosa- think you need to get out more...its a lot more than 1 or 2 players at the 30k events I've been to. I mean unless your going to an event with 10 or less players all the time lol.

You can walk around when people have their armies on display and just go yep several total competitive a-hole lists in the narrative event.

If your flag is anything to go by then italy likely has a different meta, but lets take your anecdote and throw in my own.

I have played all over the world, Australia, Hong Kong (small scene sadly) All over the UK, France, germany, Spain (small scene from what I was told when there), netherlands, all over the USA, Canada, even in moscow.

Perhaps you should get out more


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Glumy wrote:

Carlisimo wrote:

I’m glad it’s working for you and I agree that the 8th edition rules are a good base on which to add extra rules. That makes me think that if GW told FW to change HH to 8th, they could add a layer on top of it that would give me the added complexity I’m looking for.

This might be probably the best solution - optional advanced rules. In this way you could play vs 8th edition 40k armies and it would satisfy (more or less) current 7th edition Horus Heresy fans.

Yep I agree, a hybrid ruleset would be my favourite solution.

Not Italian, American in Italy right now.....my experience is from one of the larger events in the USA.

Here in Italy is one guy that keeps asking about 7th ed 30k....and everyone else that does play 30k Ive met likes 8th ed better.

In fact had a great 30k 8th ed game last week with one of the local players my EC vs his Salamanders with the fan based 8th ed rules on here.

To me the game is amazingly better with toughness/wounds for vehicles and AP values that are incremental. Super heavy armor doesn't tend to dominate the game as much as it did in most 7th ed match ups.

 Tamwulf wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
Personally I just like the 8th edition ruleset over 6th and 7th. 6th and 7th are just utter gak in my opinion and have little to nothing to add of value.

If that is the case, then 30K is not for you. Some of us really like 7th ed rules in 30K and have zero interest in moving to 8th ed/40K rules.

8th is just utter gak in my opinion and have little to nothing to add of value for 30K.

Ok, neither sentiment is important or helpful for the discussion of what we think will happen with Horus Heresy in the future. None of our opinions and preferences for which ruleset is better are going to be considered when the future is considered.

Whether you think the community is surging or not, I think we can all agree that less people are playing than 2 years ago. So FW/GW have a couple of options. They either try to spend more resources to bring more players in the hope that it can be profitable again or they just let become a legacy ruleset that is not actively supported. I used to think that they would move it to 8th eventually, but with the phase out of baby marines from 40k, I'm starting to think it's the latter. Also, even limited release characters such as the holiday noise marine are coming out in plastic now, so to me that means that resin models are on the way out as far as GW is concerned. For Titanicus the weapon upgrades are being released in plastic as well. All these factors to me signal that a mainline resin game is not something that is going to be supported in the future.

We really won't be able to guess what GW will want to do with the Horus Heresy line unless they give us sales figure. For all we know it could selling well or selling so badly that it will be outright cancelled next year

I do agree that the greater move to plastic with even smaller releases does tell us how robust their pipeline has become. Take into account the holiday release and all the different limited Primaris Lieutenants they've released over the years and one gets the picture that they've got their process down.

There is also another angle that I have been wondering about. With their focus on Chapter Approved, FAQs, and tournaments in general I am wondering if GW is looking at tabletop sports as their future. Wouldn't be surprised as that has been a thing for many game companies in the past few years. With streaming becoming more popular and tourneys getting more attendance I can imagine GW seeing a potential venue for their game.

In fact, now that I think about it, 8th does feel like they were trying to make something that was accessible, easy to read for the most part, but also had the potential for some crazy moves/wildcards in the form of stratagems.

Which brings me to the final point: If they are eyeing TT-Sports, what does that bode for their games and how they approach them.

So many ideas and questions. The future is fun in GWs' hobbies.

My one experience with Horus Heresy organised play was that everyone attending thought they were being casual and laid back, but at least a quarter of them rocked up with tournament-optimised lists and flattened everyone else. I had the bad luck to play against two of them out of four games. Nice enough folk, but I'd have better spent my time getting a cup of tea and browsing the shelves while they got on with removing my models.

 BroodSpawn wrote:
Y'know this whole argument of 'can't use my Heresy army in 8th' is rubbish right?
The models are the same, your tactical marines in Heresy will still be tactical/'normal' chaos marines in 8th. Your terminators may suffer depending on loadout, but tanks? Rules for them in 8th. Dreadnought? Rules for them in 8th.

What are you missing - Rites and named characters? Everything else can be converted.

I'm sorry but that excuse is frankly terrible now. The complaint there is people don't want to play different rule sets, or be restricted from using certain cheesy options in a format/system/setting they weren't designed for.

My first heresy army was mechanicum. If I could find a local scene, my next army would be custodes. Please let me know how to use my thanatar or caladius grav tank in 8th edition of 40k cuz my little monkey brain can't quite figure it out.

bogalubov wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
Personally I just like the 8th edition ruleset over 6th and 7th. 6th and 7th are just utter gak in my opinion and have little to nothing to add of value.

If that is the case, then 30K is not for you. Some of us really like 7th ed rules in 30K and have zero interest in moving to 8th ed/40K rules.

8th is just utter gak in my opinion and have little to nothing to add of value for 30K.

Ok, neither sentiment is important or helpful for the discussion of what we think will happen with Horus Heresy in the future. None of our opinions and preferences for which ruleset is better are going to be considered when the future is considered.

Whether you think the community is surging or not, I think we can all agree that less people are playing than 2 years ago. So FW/GW have a couple of options. They either try to spend more resources to bring more players in the hope that it can be profitable again or they just let become a legacy ruleset that is not actively supported. I used to think that they would move it to 8th eventually, but with the phase out of baby marines from 40k, I'm starting to think it's the latter. Also, even limited release characters such as the holiday noise marine are coming out in plastic now, so to me that means that resin models are on the way out as far as GW is concerned. For Titanicus the weapon upgrades are being released in plastic as well. All these factors to me signal that a mainline resin game is not something that is going to be supported in the future.

Everything in this thread is speculation and opinion though. Your assertion that less people are playing 30K than two years ago is an opinion. In my meta, we've actually grown in size. Looking at the 30K Reddit forums, it seems pretty healthy and alive. All the Adepticon events for 30K, and there are more 30K events than 40K events believe it or not, are all sold out. You are speculating on the removal of "baby marines" from 40K. Just because a bunch of stuff is being released in plastic doesn't mean resin is leaving GW. GW hasn't done resin for a couple years now, but Forge World does, and Forge World is a subdivision within GW that has it's own staff and manufacturing facilities. For GW to quit doing resin would mean GW closes down Forge World and folds Specialist Games back into main GW, which wouldn't make sense as they just separated Specialist Games from GW and gave it to Forge World. It would seem GW is supporting Forge World more than it ever has. In the last Forge World Open Day, they stressed that Book 8 is still on the way, and they still have production plans beyond book 8. They have released FAQ/Errata for 30K. They keep releasing new models for 30K. If that wasn't the case, I'd expect them to stop making such statements or just come out and say "Sorry, 30K is dead and will no longer be supported".

An argument can be made that everything you just said confuses and misrepresents the discussion as you state your assertions and speculation as fact. They are not fact. They are assertions, speculations, and opinions, especially when it comes to saying a resin game will no longer be supported.

 Toofast wrote:

My first heresy army was mechanicum. If I could find a local scene, my next army would be custodes. Please let me know how to use my thanatar or caladius grav tank in 8th edition of 40k cuz my little monkey brain can't quite figure it out.

Nobody is saying every single model is compatible. We're saying the vast majority of a collection is.

But, to answer, the Caladius has downloadable 8ed rules on the FW site, in a PDF that says that they're Beta tests for a future publication. A while ago, Fires of Cyraxus was meant to be the next IA book with Mechanicum unit rules. I'm not sure what the status is of that now.

But, just reiterate because people seem to have trouble with this: nobody is saying your entire army has 100% 8ed rules. They're saying MOST of it does, and MOST people can probably play regular 8ed 40k with their Heresy models if they want.

 ArbitorIan wrote:


But, just reiterate because people seem to have trouble with this: nobody is saying your entire army has 100% 8ed rules. They're saying MOST of it does, and MOST people can probably play regular 8ed 40k with their Heresy models if they want.

I want to emphasise this, as it probably makes my point more politely than I did.

 Tamwulf wrote:

An argument can be made that everything you just said confuses and misrepresents the discussion as you state your assertions and speculation as fact. They are not fact. They are assertions, speculations, and opinions, especially when it comes to saying a resin game will no longer be supported.

Every statement I made literally started with "I think" or "In my opinion", so I'm not sure how much more clear I can be that those are not facts. I provided some facts about special release characters and titanicus and then extrapolated what these facts mean for the future of resin miniatures. In terms of stating that the community has shrunk that's also a fact for my local area (which is also in Washington state, so I'm curious where in Washington it's growing). So you can say that my one data point cannot be used to make sweeping comments, but it's not an opinion. Also, for a healthy game the fact that the most active discussion thread is the game's possible demise probably says something.

You will note that none of my guesses for the future rely on stating which ruleset I think is best as our personal preferences have no impact on what will happen in the future.

 ArbitorIan wrote:

 Toofast wrote:

My first heresy army was mechanicum. If I could find a local scene, my next army would be custodes. Please let me know how to use my thanatar or caladius grav tank in 8th edition of 40k cuz my little monkey brain can't quite figure it out.

Nobody is saying every single model is compatible. We're saying the vast majority of a collection is.

But, to answer, the Caladius has downloadable 8ed rules on the FW site, in a PDF that says that they're Beta tests for a future publication. A while ago, Fires of Cyraxus was meant to be the next IA book with Mechanicum unit rules. I'm not sure what the status is of that now.

But, just reiterate because people seem to have trouble with this: nobody is saying your entire army has 100% 8ed rules. They're saying MOST of it does, and MOST people can probably play regular 8ed 40k with their Heresy models if they want.

My entire mechanicum collection did not have rules compatible with 8th edition of 40k. Neither does custodes. People who play legions might be able to shoehorn some of their models into a subpar 40k list and play them as codex space marines. That's quite a bit different than being able to play any 30k list against any 40k list as we could do until the day 8th edition released. In areas where 30k never took off (eg the entire Southeastern 1/4 of the United States), at least half of my games with my 30k army were played against 40k armies. When that option was taken away (because nobody playing a 40k army wanted to play a single extra game using the utter clusterfeth that was the 7th edition ruleset), I was no longer able to get enough games with my army to justify keeping it, so it went on ebay.

 Toofast wrote:

 BroodSpawn wrote:
Y'know this whole argument of 'can't use my Heresy army in 8th' is rubbish right?
The models are the same, your tactical marines in Heresy will still be tactical/'normal' chaos marines in 8th. Your terminators may suffer depending on loadout, but tanks? Rules for them in 8th. Dreadnought? Rules for them in 8th.

What are you missing - Rites and named characters? Everything else can be converted.

I'm sorry but that excuse is frankly terrible now. The complaint there is people don't want to play different rule sets, or be restricted from using certain cheesy options in a format/system/setting they weren't designed for.

My first heresy army was mechanicum. If I could find a local scene, my next army would be custodes. Please let me know how to use my thanatar or caladius grav tank in 8th edition of 40k cuz my little monkey brain can't quite figure it out.

Please let me know how to play my Deathwing or Sanguinary Guard when GW removed the ability to make them troops. A bunch of Vanguard Detachments? No thanks.

 Fajita Fan wrote:
A bunch of Vanguard Detachments? No thanks.

And what is the reason for that magically not counting, other then it countering your point utterly?

Isn't the whole point is those are meant to allows you to take. Othing but elite choices.

My entire mechanicum collection did not have rules compatible with 8th edition of 40k. Neither does custodes. People who play legions might be able to shoehorn some of their models into a subpar 40k list and play them as codex space marines. That's quite a bit different than being able to play any 30k list against any 40k list as we could do until the day 8th edition released. In areas where 30k never took off (eg the entire Southeastern 1/4 of the United States), at least half of my games with my 30k army were played against 40k armies. When that option was taken away (because nobody playing a 40k army wanted to play a single extra game using the utter clusterfeth that was the 7th edition ruleset), I was no longer able to get enough games with my army to justify keeping it, so it went on ebay.

Q: Are the armies and units in the Horus Heresy books by Forge World meant to be used in
games against regular Codex armies, such as say Grey Knights or Orks?
A: While Forge World’s on-going range of Horus Heresy books and their game content are all
designed to use and be compatible with the Warhammer 40,000 rules, they have been fine-tuned and
focused on playing battles in the milieu of the Horus Heresy rather than in conjunction with the
Codexes representing warfare in the 41st Millennium, and this will remain the case.

Designer’s Note: This means that while you are, of course, free to have fun and play games against
your friends using any forces you like, and Horus Heresy forces will be broadly ‘a fair fight’ with
Codex forces of the same scale, certain rules anomalies and inconsistencies may be thrown up that
you have to deal with, although these should not seriously affect the game in most cases. (For
example, certain units, such as those with the Stubborn special rule are at a premium costing in
Horus Heresy armies over their regular Codex counterparts, owing to the results of play testing
within their own sphere.)

In terms of using Lords of War and the Primarchs, however, these are definitely not intended to be
used in standard Warhammer 40,000 games, but only in games where both sides use the Age of
Darkness Force Organisation chart, and the specific provisions within, and in games of 2,000 points
or greater.

Designer’s Note: So if, for example, you wanted to play a battle representing a narrative where the
Sons of Horus Legion fought Orks or Eldar during the Great Crusade, you could quite easily use
those xenos forces’ Warhammer 40,000 Codexes (possibly house-ruled to accommodate larger
squads) to proxy for their Heresy-era counterparts. In this case, however, both sides should be using
the Age of Darkness Force Organisation chart, with the army’s own Apocalypse level units and flyers
available as Lords of War entries following the guidelines found on page 184 of Betrayal.


While I feel for you spending all that money, we were warned, repeatedly, that it was not designed for 40k play.

When 8th came out i didnt throw my hands up and complain that i could not longer play against 40k armies, mainly because I still can, still own those codexs, but also because I expected an edition change to make it much more difficult in the future anyway... I didnt expect such a change though.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Fajita Fan wrote:
A bunch of Vanguard Detachments? No thanks.

And what is the reason for that magically not counting, other then it countering your point utterly?

As a Deathwing player its not even remotely the same, plus rule of 3 and deep strike nerf, Deathwing has never been in such a bad place, and yes I am including 3rd when they didnt even have invun saves.

bogalubov wrote:
[Also, for a healthy game the fact that the most active discussion thread is the game's possible demise probably says something.

To be fair, this is a Warhammer 40,000 forum primarily and the vast majority of people with accounts here made them to talk Warhammer 40,000. There's a little bias there in the same way that a dedicated Horus Heresy message board is often times biased towards positivity.

That said, I'm in a WhatsApp group for Scottish Horus Heresy players, which is active pretty much daily with Heresy hobby updates, or rules/fluff/miniature discussion. A lot of the folk in there met at a bi-annual event that a couple of folks run in Stirling which really re-invigorated the scene and I think for a lot of us, gave us a whole new life and purpose to building, collecting and playing 30K again. At this stage, we all just like our miniatures and our game well enough and are generally self-policed well enough that even if ForgeWorld did stop doing new books for Heresy, we'd keep playing and keep the scene alive because we love this game for what it is - much the same way the Middle-earth folks did for their Hobbit SBG for years on life support.

It kind of bums me out to check on this forum every day at work and see that the only thing people here are seemingly interested in talking about with Heresy is whether ForgeWorld cares enough about it, and whether it's going to move to 8th or not - and, of course, whether people hate 7th or hate 8th or whatever. It's almost not worth having a Heresy sub-forum here at all any more (Edit: to be clear, that's not a dig - I haven't exactly been posting content in here myself).

I know I said this earlier but the advantage of the HH moving to 8th or 9th edition is to bring more players into the game while still allowing the 7th edition loving crowd to keep all of the existing books that are out and enjoying that. It's sort of the option that pleases everyone and I think it's definitely the most likely outcome.

There was, as of a couple of years ago at a store that closed, a fairly large group of WHFB player in my area who keep that game's 7th edition alive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Fajita Fan wrote:
A bunch of Vanguard Detachments? No thanks.

And what is the reason for that magically not counting, other then it countering your point utterly?

Because you take an army that I started in 4th edition and paid real money for, take it out of the codex by removing their ability to become troops, then by changing force org to be an exercise in maximizing command points my army that was codex legal a couple of years ago comes to the plate with two strikes. I love small elite, fluffy, characterful armies which is why I started Grey Knights, Ogres, Deathwing, Sanguinary Guard, etc. and it's really disappointing to watch an army you paid hundreds of dollars building and converting to disappear. I bought two Aegis defense lines just for the autocannons to make codex-legal Rifleman dreads and they've disappeared from the codex as well.

If/when the HH moves to a new edition that uses the same basic rules as 40k I'm sure you'll see indices like the 40k ones where FW armies will be made legal. In the end this is just a board game we're talking about, not pacemakers or something that important.

 Formosa wrote:

My entire mechanicum collection did not have rules compatible with 8th edition of 40k. Neither does custodes. People who play legions might be able to shoehorn some of their models into a subpar 40k list and play them as codex space marines. That's quite a bit different than being able to play any 30k list against any 40k list as we could do until the day 8th edition released. In areas where 30k never took off (eg the entire Southeastern 1/4 of the United States), at least half of my games with my 30k army were played against 40k armies. When that option was taken away (because nobody playing a 40k army wanted to play a single extra game using the utter clusterfeth that was the 7th edition ruleset), I was no longer able to get enough games with my army to justify keeping it, so it went on ebay.

A: While Forge World’s on-going range of Horus Heresy books and their game content are all
designed to use and be compatible with the Warhammer 40,000 rules...

Except that answer is no longer correct. They are no longer compatible with the Warhammer 40k rules at all. That's the problem. Forgeworld said "While these haven't been balanced against 40k armies, the rules are all compatible". Then they went and made them not compatible. They don't know how to balance even 40k armies against other 40k armies so the balance was never an issue. If anything the 30k stuff was a bit underpowered. Now, balance is irrelevant because the rules for 30k armies are just flat out not compatible with the rules for 40k armies.

Balancing all of the 30k armies to the 40k balance seems like a lot of work. If anything it'd be easier to make a 30k expansion consisting of Eldar and Orks that are balanced to 30k marines so you can have Crusade-era battles with new opponents.

That's a free tip if anyone from FW is reading.

By the way I want to be perfectly clear: I'm not denigrating or challenging the players who like 7th edition that they're wrong. The future of the game is the question here and the future of any game is growth, not pleasing the existing players. GW/FW will do what they think grows the game to a larger customer base.

 Toofast wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

My entire mechanicum collection did not have rules compatible with 8th edition of 40k. Neither does custodes. People who play legions might be able to shoehorn some of their models into a subpar 40k list and play them as codex space marines. That's quite a bit different than being able to play any 30k list against any 40k list as we could do until the day 8th edition released. In areas where 30k never took off (eg the entire Southeastern 1/4 of the United States), at least half of my games with my 30k army were played against 40k armies. When that option was taken away (because nobody playing a 40k army wanted to play a single extra game using the utter clusterfeth that was the 7th edition ruleset), I was no longer able to get enough games with my army to justify keeping it, so it went on ebay.

A: While Forge World’s on-going range of Horus Heresy books and their game content are all
designed to use and be compatible with the Warhammer 40,000 rules...

Except that answer is no longer correct. They are no longer compatible with the Warhammer 40k rules at all. That's the problem. Forgeworld said "While these haven't been balanced against 40k armies, the rules are all compatible". Then they went and made them not compatible. They don't know how to balance even 40k armies against other 40k armies so the balance was never an issue. If anything the 30k stuff was a bit underpowered. Now, balance is irrelevant because the rules for 30k armies are just flat out not compatible with the rules for 40k armies.

In all fairness the part you quoted very clearly says rules, not armies, the part you left out .. for some reason

"they have been fine-tuned and focused on playing battles in the milieu of the Horus Heresy rather than in conjunction with the
Codexes representing warfare in the 41st Millennium, and this will remain the case."

cements that it was the rulebook, not codexs, so the warning is there, also "fine tuned" and "focused" on playing games in the "Horus Heresy" and "this will remain the case" is also a warning that something may come up to make them incompatible.

FW has put a teaser image on FB of Sanguinius fighting Kha'banda.

Fingers crossed for Angelus in 2019?

 Earth127 wrote:
FW has put a teaser image on FB of Sanguinius fighting Kha'banda.

Fingers crossed for Angelus in 2019?

Book 8 was scheduled for 2018 according to the FW Open Day from February. It will probably be available for prerelease at this years FW Open Day in February, and general release soon after.

The book might be released sooner then later. FW has put out the BA Preator in Tartorus Terminator Armor, Preator in Power Armor, a BA pattern Leviathan, and BA Contemptor. If they are teasing Sangy... woot!

 Fajita Fan wrote:
Balancing all of the 30k armies to the 40k balance seems like a lot of work. If anything it'd be easier to make a 30k expansion consisting of Eldar and Orks that are balanced to 30k marines so you can have Crusade-era battles with new opponents.

I don't think we'll ever see 30K become fully compatible with 40K again. That team has something like three guys assigned to it. And Specialist Games is where the extra bodies are going.

I think the closest possible outcome is that the next version of the AoD rulebook blends in some 8th edition mechanics to address the worst aspects of 7th edition. But my bet would be that the AoD core rules stay as is for years (army lists may get addressed, though). It'll be two years between books when Malevolence is released, and there's no reason to think that book 9 (presumably finishing off the SM Legions) is going to follow right on its heels. It'll probably be another two years. A core rules update probably won't be a priority until then at the earliest.

I don't want to come off like I'm slagging that team too hard, though. They're a tiny team that's been through a lot, and have a fairly ridiculous task of producing lavish 300 page coffee table books in order to support their game. While supporting 40K products. It's a lot.

 gorgon wrote:

I don't want to come off like I'm slagging that team too hard, though. They're a tiny team that's been through a lot, and have a fairly ridiculous task of producing lavish 300 page coffee table books in order to support their game. While supporting 40K products. It's a lot.

Hrm, of late I wouldn't mind slagging on them a bit, with respect to that last bit about supporting 40k products, they basicslly haven't been doing much support. Pretty much everything still uses the Index rules from the start of the edition with only a small handful of new things added since and GW chapter approved points changes, and most everything is in dire need of rules assistance. With the lack of HH stuff and the almost nonexistent 40k support, it really feels like the drive has fallen out of the place.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

I don't want to come off like I'm slagging that team too hard, though. They're a tiny team that's been through a lot, and have a fairly ridiculous task of producing lavish 300 page coffee table books in order to support their game. While supporting 40K products. It's a lot.

Hrm, of late I wouldn't mind slagging on them a bit, with respect to that last bit about supporting 40k products, they basicslly haven't been doing much support. Pretty much everything still uses the Index rules from the start of the edition with only a small handful of new things added since and GW chapter approved points changes, and most everything is in dire need of rules assistance. With the lack of HH stuff and the almost nonexistent 40k support, it really feels like the drive has fallen out of the place.

Admittedly I wanted the Talons of the Emperor book by now. *shrug*

Played some games in 7th vs 40k nids...oh, how fun is to face those big invisibility deathstars with legion, while basically have little to no answer to it, and you are unable to use any templates...

 smurfORnot wrote:
Played some games in 7th vs 40k nids...oh, how fun is to face those big invisibility deathstars with legion, while basically have little to no answer to it, and you are unable to use any templates...

HH doesnt have invisibility anymore? at least not the 7th version of it at any rate, when did you play this game?

Also the timescale for books is off. FW have stated (and I wish I could find the link) that they plan on re-releasing the red Legion's book in 2020 with rules for ALL the Legions, so by that argument Book 9 (the one that actually matters ) should be out before then

 BroodSpawn wrote:
Also the timescale for books is off. FW have stated (and I wish I could find the link) that they plan on re-releasing the red Legion's book in 2020 with rules for ALL the Legions, so by that argument Book 9 (the one that actually matters ) should be out before then

Yeah, but FW have stated a ton of stuff that then gets delayed by years, or never happens.

I mean, we should have Fires of Cyraxus by now, and Angelus a while ago, and I'm pretty sure there's a Talons update that should be happening.

With FW, I think the safest thing is just to assume nothing is ever going to be released until it suddenly is.


..

I think FW pretty much fell apart over a year ago when it comes to publishing anything of worth.

It would seem that Alan was the only guy there capable of decent work and so with his passing they lost their talent.

I don't think that, but I think they lost a driving force and product champion at about the same time that GW was changing its focus. Heresy is needed a lot less in a company with growing Specialist Games, a thriving 40K, and indices that allow using 30K models for 40K.

From what I have gathered I don't think the change to 8th edition was as sudden as people make out.

New product lines- printed books and future models take a long time for a company to develop...look at sisters of Battle 2019 release so a year + to develop. Since GW seems to do most of its printing overseas- it adds to the timeline a lot, not sure why the company has such a bad presence in technology---its almost 2019 and digital is the future so they need to embrace some technology IMO.

This tells me that FW most likely knew 8th edition was coming far longer than they let on and were absolutely not prepared.

You could also say book 7 was abit of a let down as far as editing, rules an such....which with Alan being Ill means that basically the staff at FW didn't pick up the slack.

In general compared to pre-8th edition FW has been lackluster to say the least and really waffled on projects that were promised- Fires and the new imperial book....basically not releasing anything for their main lines other than some odd models here and there...but nothing rules wise.

chaos45 wrote:
From what I have gathered I don't think the change to 8th edition was as sudden as people make out.

New product lines- printed books and future models take a long time for a company to develop...look at sisters of Battle 2019 release so a year + to develop. Since GW seems to do most of its printing overseas- it adds to the timeline a lot, not sure why the company has such a bad presence in technology---its almost 2019 and digital is the future so they need to embrace some technology IMO.

This tells me that FW most likely knew 8th edition was coming far longer than they let on and were absolutely not prepared.

You could also say book 7 was abit of a let down as far as editing, rules an such....which with Alan being Ill means that basically the staff at FW didn't pick up the slack.

In general compared to pre-8th edition FW has been lackluster to say the least and really waffled on projects that were promised- Fires and the new imperial book....basically not releasing anything for their main lines other than some odd models here and there...but nothing rules wise.

The lack of a 40k app is a bit baffling. The one for AoS has it's issues, but at least it exists and you can use it to build an army list and access unit rules. They have a subscription to get the points and formations. I would gladly pay a subscription for a 40k app that kept my rules/points updated. I can't handle carrying all these books around and keeping track which ones have the correct rules. I know some people want hardcover books and others loathe subscription services, but I think most people would prefer to have an app to track all of this.

In regard to the awful rules writing and maintenance for FW items, I think it gives more credence to the idea of GW scaling back their presence in resin. It's either such a small profit generator that they don't care about it, or they see no future in it and are actively ignoring the potential to make more money from resin.

App for 40k and plethora of books now already released is needed...esp with points fluctuating on some models every 6 months or so.

Listened to an update yesterday from the 40k channel with the FW staff xmas party.

They talked 30k...next book is done and at printers...Book 8

Book 9 is now in the planning phase apparently...what I did notice--30k has about the smallest staff of all the FW lines now....they had 2 artists and 1 rules writer interviewed for 30k line and that was it. Basically 30k is the project of 1 guy that was brought on right before Alan passed away or around the same time as he said he had only been working there for about a year and a half.

Compared to in general larger teams for all the other specialist games they are doing...think only the War in Middle earth team was the same size or smaller...kinda tells you how the emphasis has changed.

chaos45 wrote:
From what I have gathered I don't think the change to 8th edition was as sudden as people make out.
(...)
This tells me that FW most likely knew 8th edition was coming far longer than they let on and were absolutely not prepared.

We know that they knew a new ruleset was coming, and the timing of the Astraeus suggests that they knew about Primaris Marines well in advance (Black Library did too). But Alan Bligh’s response to a seminar question about 8th edition, saying that 30k would always use the current 40k ruleset, suggests that Forge World didn’t know anything about 8th edition other than its release schedule. The magnitude of the change seemed to catch them by surprise.

That was a surprise to us. We had previously heard rumors that the changes from 5th to 6th and 6th to 7th were total surprises to Forge World, but there were also rumors going around that GW was trying to improve its communication with FW. Who knows, maybe it did happen, and FW decided they didn’t have the manpower to deal with it.

Carlisimo wrote:

chaos45 wrote:
From what I have gathered I don't think the change to 8th edition was as sudden as people make out.
(...)
This tells me that FW most likely knew 8th edition was coming far longer than they let on and were absolutely not prepared.

We know that they knew a new ruleset was coming, and the timing of the Astraeus suggests that they knew about Primaris Marines well in advance (Black Library did too). But Alan Bligh’s response to a seminar question about 8th edition, saying that 30k would always use the current 40k ruleset, suggests that Forge World didn’t know anything about 8th edition other than its release schedule. The magnitude of the change seemed to catch them by surprise.

That was a surprise to us. We had previously heard rumors that the changes from 5th to 6th and 6th to 7th were total surprises to Forge World, but there were also rumors going around that GW was trying to improve its communication with FW. Who knows, maybe it did happen, and FW decided they didn’t have the manpower to deal with it.

The writer of FoC flat out said that they were blindsided by it. He had the book done, and ready to be published, and then the 8th rules dropped, and it was such a drastically different system, that they had to shelve the book, for... well ever maybe, given how hard they're being slammed with Specialists Games on top of everything else now.

 djones520 wrote:

Carlisimo wrote:

chaos45 wrote:
From what I have gathered I don't think the change to 8th edition was as sudden as people make out.
(...)
This tells me that FW most likely knew 8th edition was coming far longer than they let on and were absolutely not prepared.

We know that they knew a new ruleset was coming, and the timing of the Astraeus suggests that they knew about Primaris Marines well in advance (Black Library did too). But Alan Bligh’s response to a seminar question about 8th edition, saying that 30k would always use the current 40k ruleset, suggests that Forge World didn’t know anything about 8th edition other than its release schedule. The magnitude of the change seemed to catch them by surprise.

That was a surprise to us. We had previously heard rumors that the changes from 5th to 6th and 6th to 7th were total surprises to Forge World, but there were also rumors going around that GW was trying to improve its communication with FW. Who knows, maybe it did happen, and FW decided they didn’t have the manpower to deal with it.

The writer of FoC flat out said that they were blindsided by it. He had the book done, and ready to be published, and then the 8th rules dropped, and it was such a drastically different system, that they had to shelve the book, for... well ever maybe, given how hard they're being slammed with Specialists Games on top of everything else now.

The only reason I believe that is that it's too dumb to make up.

pm713 wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

Carlisimo wrote:

chaos45 wrote:
From what I have gathered I don't think the change to 8th edition was as sudden as people make out.
(...)
This tells me that FW most likely knew 8th edition was coming far longer than they let on and were absolutely not prepared.

We know that they knew a new ruleset was coming, and the timing of the Astraeus suggests that they knew about Primaris Marines well in advance (Black Library did too). But Alan Bligh’s response to a seminar question about 8th edition, saying that 30k would always use the current 40k ruleset, suggests that Forge World didn’t know anything about 8th edition other than its release schedule. The magnitude of the change seemed to catch them by surprise.

That was a surprise to us. We had previously heard rumors that the changes from 5th to 6th and 6th to 7th were total surprises to Forge World, but there were also rumors going around that GW was trying to improve its communication with FW. Who knows, maybe it did happen, and FW decided they didn’t have the manpower to deal with it.

The writer of FoC flat out said that they were blindsided by it. He had the book done, and ready to be published, and then the 8th rules dropped, and it was such a drastically different system, that they had to shelve the book, for... well ever maybe, given how hard they're being slammed with Specialists Games on top of everything else now.

The only reason I believe that is that it's too dumb to make up.

Well, they don't say without a reason, human stupidity has no limits...

FW is certainly trying their best to kill the HH goose, intentionally or inadvertently. Their latest little reconfiguring of their store that hiked everything up 30-40% did not help. We still have quite a few people who are interested in HH, but literally everyone will use recasts or buy nothing before giving FW a single dime. For me, Malevolence will probably be my last direct purchase, since it will likely also be the last or second to last book.

So now they have an aged ruleset that they failed to do more with, the entry boxes are discontinued, most of the legion-specific upgrade parts are gone, and Primaris make the stumpy marines less desirable in the first place. Add Titanicus (which is pretty sweet) and the other specialty games, and you have a lot of pressures on HH.

Now if they resized all of the HH armors and upgrade kits to be true scale, that would probably tempt me, but they would also charge $20 per marine.

chaos45 wrote:
I think FW pretty much fell apart over a year ago when it comes to publishing anything of worth.

It would seem that Alan was the only guy there capable of decent work and so with his passing they lost their talent.

It seems that Alan was the the last person at GW that didn’t think MTG was the pinnacle of modern game design.

Pancakey wrote:

chaos45 wrote:
I think FW pretty much fell apart over a year ago when it comes to publishing anything of worth.

It would seem that Alan was the only guy there capable of decent work and so with his passing they lost their talent.

It seems that Alan was the the last person at GW that didn’t think MTG was the pinnacle of modern game design.

I can agree with that. I hate MTG with a passion.

HandofMars wrote:
FW is certainly trying their best to kill the HH goose, intentionally or inadvertently. Their latest little reconfiguring of their store that hiked everything up 30-40% did not help.

Well thats Brexit prep, and you cant really blame them considering whats coming at the end of March.

Tough in all fairness. The pound took a beating in value after the referendum/ during the negotiations leading to FW accidentally having a massive sale. They "corrected" that back when they switched to using local currency.

 Earth127 wrote:
Tough in all fairness. The pound took a beating in value after the referendum/ during the negotiations leading to FW accidentally having a massive sale. They "corrected" that back when they switched to using local currency.

As a seller of goods, you want your currency to be cheap. It's easier to sell things when they are cheaper. By raising the prices for foreign buyers they just cut their sales volume. It makes no real sense.

More to the point if no deal happens a company that exports 75% of it's product is in major trouble from tariffs as well as currency fluctuations.

Hence the expense of setting up manufacturing in the US to make stuff to supply the US market.

FW's main problem is that a lot of the talent has now left for the Specialist Games studio or somewhere else, which is what gave us the Awuuu pattern bolters and banana fur.

The next black book will be out massively late and we'll have to see how well written it is, but given the mess Inferno was and the problems it caused both for Horus Heresy and 40k hopefully someone is going over it with a fine tooth comb for issues with editing, the background and the rules.

Ben2 wrote:
h opefully someone is going over it with a fine tooth comb for issues with editing, the background and the rules.

I don't think that's ever happened for any GW publication. I'm pretty sure every book released in 8th edition for 40k has needed day 1 errata. It baffles me that GW refuses to switch to an online source for rules and just charge a subscription fee, while selling fluff and model pictures in printed books. Their die hard fans will still buy the overpriced and unnecessary books, while the people who just want to play the game will pay the sub fee for the rules. Rules can be changed and updated on the fly. If they went with mobile apps, your phone could even notify you when an errata has been implemented, points have been changed, etc. However, GW will continue to act like this is 1972 and the only way to produce rules is in print format, so they will continue to be 8 months behind with balance changes and sell books that have errors the day they're released.

Every time someone brings up the go digital thing I have to wonder, is it because that's easier for you or because it would be healthier for the games?

Going digital only for rules is a barrier to these games. It requires everyone to have a device capable of handling the data, the ability for that data to be clear and readable on every type of device, the devices to be charged and with a battery life long enough to manage multiple games.

You now also have the issues of usability: how does someone look up a USR, where do you find the legion traits, how do I show my opponent a rule if they don't have that subscription option in the device to see said rules (AoS app as an example).

Digital only rules is a bad idea for 40k and by extension Heresy. The formatting and way the various rules are designed doesn't aid in it, and before you say 'just change it' you're expecting a major overhaul to a formatting system for the sake of then selling less product (because no one will buy a book that is just pretty pictures unless it's a paint guide, and even those aren't high sales compared to a codex with models, fluff and rules)

I agree wotj brood to a point, digital only is bad, both digital and hardcopy as an option is fine.

Digital support with printed hard copies is what AoS has now, and arguably what we have with the various epub/mobi/iTunes versions of books as well. A dedicated app like the one for AoS would be great.

Last we heard they were working on a dedicated app for 40k, though when that's likely to be finished I have no idea. But that's a digression from this thread, and with the way Heresy is built and is likely to be expanded upon it's unlikely that it'll get the same level of support digitally. Much more likely to get it for something like Necromunda than this.

 BroodSpawn wrote:
Every time someone brings up the go digital thing I have to wonder, is it because that's easier for you or because it would be healthier for the games?

Going digital only for rules is a barrier to these games. It requires everyone to have a device capable of handling the data, the ability for that data to be clear and readable on every type of device, the devices to be charged and with a battery life long enough to manage multiple games.

You now also have the issues of usability: how does someone look up a USR, where do you find the legion traits, how do I show my opponent a rule if they don't have that subscription option in the device to see said rules (AoS app as an example).

Digital only rules is a bad idea for 40k and by extension Heresy. The formatting and way the various rules are designed doesn't aid in it, and before you say 'just change it' you're expecting a major overhaul to a formatting system for the sake of then selling less product (because no one will buy a book that is just pretty pictures unless it's a paint guide, and even those aren't high sales compared to a codex with models, fluff and rules)

Because it would be healthier for the game. It would be slightly more difficult to use but far better for the balance of a game if things can be changed in a matter of minutes instead of waiting a year or two for the next printed version of those rules to come out. To make things easier, use a printer to print off the relevant stuff. I already do that for a lot of stuff, buy the ebook version and print the bits I will actually need. You already have to print FAQ, designer commentary, and errata. How hard is it to print a few extra pages? If you don't have a printer, it can be done at the library, Kinkos, a friends house, your parents could do it for you at the office, etc. It's almost 2019, if you're playing Warhammer you have some sort of access to a printer.

So instead of buying a book with all the materials in, I need to buy an ebook and then, at further cost to myself (no matter how great or small that may be) print everything you need or use a digital device. You're creating barriers to entry to the game, no matter how easy it may be for you it's not true for others.

For a bit of an example of a primarily digital only game let's look at Warmachine/Hordes. Everything is downloaded to pdf or accessed through the app. Try to get someone new into that game and you've got to tell them the only way to get rules is to get an app (which they may not have a device that can run it) or that they have to look around online for the downloadable cards... and may not even know which cards, or how many, or what extras they need just to get the core rules to play.
Each of these is a barrier to entry, each of these is fine if you've been in the game a few years as it's making your life easier but it doesn't help newer players and it certainly doesn't help those that aren't technologically savvy. This is why I struggle with people saying that 'it's 2019, GW should just go digital for the health of the game(s)' since there's a prime example from one of it's larger competitors that shows this not to be the case.

 BroodSpawn wrote:
So instead of buying a book with all the materials in, I need to buy an ebook and then, at further cost to myself (no matter how great or small that may be) print everything you need or use a digital device. You're creating barriers to entry to the game, no matter how easy it may be for you it's not true for others.

For a bit of an example of a primarily digital only game let's look at Warmachine/Hordes. Everything is downloaded to pdf or accessed through the app. Try to get someone new into that game and you've got to tell them the only way to get rules is to get an app (which they may not have a device that can run it) or that they have to look around online for the downloadable cards... and may not even know which cards, or how many, or what extras they need just to get the core rules to play.
Each of these is a barrier to entry, each of these is fine if you've been in the game a few years as it's making your life easier but it doesn't help newer players and it certainly doesn't help those that aren't technologically savvy. This is why I struggle with people saying that 'it's 2019, GW should just go digital for the health of the game(s)' since there's a prime example from one of it's larger competitors that shows this not to be the case.

Maybe it's because I'm in the US but I have yet to meet someone (played weekly in 3 different states over the last 10 years) that doesn't have a device that they could get the app on. My almost 70 year old dad and my almost 70 year old uncles all have smartphones. My 4 year old niece has an ipad and can use it well enough to take pictures and use basic apps. You wouldn't need to print much at all, maybe 10-12 pages. At libraries I've been to, they charge 10 cents per page for printing. A library card is free. It's really not difficult to use the app, and print 10-12 pages of stuff you reference often. How do you go to tournaments if you can't print extra copies of your lists? I have to print 10 pages every time I do even a local tournament, because my list is 2 pages and I have to give each opponent a copy of my list along with submitting a copy to the TO and keeping 1 for myself. I just don't see the barrier here.

Just as you know a 4yr old capable of using an iPad well I've known 20-somethings that struggle to enter a formula into Excel, or don't understand how to format a word document for writing a list on. It's this kind of anecdotal issue that doesn't solve the question nor does it help to show an improvement or removal of adding barriers to the games. In fact it's still adding them.

In your case you're an experienced person in this hobby, having an app or digital format greatly helps you since it's less extra paperwork you have to manage. But that doesn't stop it being a barrier for others, some who are in this already. So what if most people have a phone that can handle an app, if they're not comfortable reading the text on a 4" screen it's no longer a benefit over flipping through a book.

The title of this thread is the Future of the Horus Heresy, and if it's going to have a future it needs to be more accessible Now since it's essentially another specialist range that means it needs to be as accessible as Necromunda.or LOTR, and that's down to cheaper/easier ways into the game not by making a product or service that's main appeal will be to the veteran's that have been interested or involved already

 BroodSpawn wrote:


The title of this thread is the Future of the Horus Heresy, and if it's going to have a future it needs to be more accessible Now since it's essentially another specialist range that means it needs to be as accessible as Necromunda.or LOTR, and that's down to cheaper/easier ways into the game not by making a product or service that's main appeal will be to the veteran's that have been interested or involved already

So a rulebook that's $62 plus shipping and only available through Forgeworld makes it more accessible than having an app where you can view the rules for a small subscription fee?

How does someone find out about the app? Where would they get it from? What happens if they don't pay the subscription? How easy is it to navigate the app, how readable is the content? Does it work on phones from 8 years ago or only the most recent? Is it iTunes exclusive?

Compared to: there's a book on the web-store where the rest of the models and range are.


Can you see why I'm arguing that going digital is a barrier to entry greater than the books?

 BroodSpawn wrote:
How does someone find out about the app? Where would they get it from? What happens if they don't pay the subscription? How easy is it to navigate the app, how readable is the content? Does it work on phones from 8 years ago or only the most recent? Is it iTunes exclusive?

Compared to: there's a book on the web-store where the rest of the models and range are.


Can you see why I'm arguing that going digital is a barrier to entry greater than the books?

Before we all clamor for an app let's look over the X-Wing forums and see how FFG's squad building app is going...

And knowing GW they'll find all kinds of way to monetize a squad building or rules app. I rather enjoy doing lists at work in Excel because looks an awful lot like work. I do like codices on my iPad though, it's easy to take my whole library and I've lost a couple of my codices over the years when other players have walked off with them.

 BroodSpawn wrote:
How does someone find out about the app? Where would they get it from? What happens if they don't pay the subscription? How easy is it to navigate the app, how readable is the content? Does it work on phones from 8 years ago or only the most recent? Is it iTunes exclusive?

Compared to: there's a book on the web-store where the rest of the models and range are.


Can you see why I'm arguing that going digital is a barrier to entry greater than the books?

The same way they find out about the rulebook, have a link to it on the front page of the GW and FW websites. They would get it from the google play or itunes store, like every other app. The same thing that happens if they don't pay for the new edition of the rulebook or codex, they don't have access to the rules. As easy as it is to navigate the app they already use for AoS. Probably the last 4-5 years, like most other smartphone apps with lots of features. Of course it isn't itunes exclusive, why would it be?

I feel you glossed over my main point by going 'easy, they can do this, look it's not hard to do' to those questions. And that is you're adding a barrier to the game that having the books on sale doesn't.

 Fajita Fan wrote:
And knowing GW they'll find all kinds of way to monetize a squad building or rules app. I rather enjoy doing lists at work in Excel because looks an awful lot like work. I do like codices on my iPad though, it's easy to take my whole library and I've lost a couple of my codices over the years when other players have walked off with them.

GW being GW likely would make rules etc subscribe model so a) when you stop paying you lose access to rules b) when GW decides to change rules/edition players have no choice but to switch. Your group prefers old? Well good luck. All rules and gaming aids only shows new. Tough luck.

tneva82 wrote:

 Fajita Fan wrote:
And knowing GW they'll find all kinds of way to monetize a squad building or rules app. I rather enjoy doing lists at work in Excel because looks an awful lot like work. I do like codices on my iPad though, it's easy to take my whole library and I've lost a couple of my codices over the years when other players have walked off with them.

GW being GW likely would make rules etc subscribe model so a) when you stop paying you lose access to rules b) when GW decides to change rules/edition players have no choice but to switch. Your group prefers old? Well good luck. All rules and gaming aids only shows new. Tough luck.

I'm solidly on the app train. The app being a subscription service (like the AoS currently is) gives GW consistent financials instead of a wax and wane of codex sales. Investors love consistent financials so I think that's a better way to go for GW.

For me it's a win personally, because after more than a decade in the hobby my house is littered with useless books and codexes. At this point in my life I would like to simplify things and stop accumulating clutter. Yes, I do enjoy the feel of a physical book, but that benefit is far outweighed by the anxiety of having all this junk in my house. Plus, whenever they choose to update rules I need to pay more money to get that new book. Or if there's an FAQ or rules update now I need to remember that those exist and either print it or store the file on my phone/tablet.

I understand that other people have other concerns and I'm not the only type of gamer that exists so my thoughts don't apply to everyone. However, moving to an app based platform is a win for GW, has benefits of seamless updates and the future generation of gamers might not even know how to use a book and they will be future customers.

If you want to get rid of clutter just throw away the books then. Same effect as it would be in app. You paid for what you no longer can use.

And is paying every month better than paying only when they choose to update rules? Update you might not even WANT to use but now have no choice as you would not even have an option to use old rules? HH case rather than stay playing 7th ed rules you prefer you would be forced to either quit completely or switch to 8th ed...

tneva82 wrote:
If you want to get rid of clutter just throw away the books then. Same effect as it would be in app. You paid for what you no longer can use.

And is paying every month better than paying only when they choose to update rules? Update you might not even WANT to use but now have no choice as you would not even have an option to use old rules? HH case rather than stay playing 7th ed rules you prefer you would be forced to either quit completely or switch to 8th ed...

You can't throw away the books and have access to them. That's what an app would solve. Yes, paying monthly is better because if you take a break from the game, when you come back you just have to start your sub up again rather than spending a bunch of money on the new book you need. People playing 7th don't have to quit completely, if their group prefers 7th they will keep playing 7th. The people who prefer 8th will move over to that. Right now, there is no option for people who prefer 8th other than selling their 30k army and just playing 40k, which is the option I chose along with several of my friends. 7th was the absolute worst edition I've played and I've been playing since the 90s. Why they would go out of their way to stay in that ruleset is beyond me.

 Toofast wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
If you want to get rid of clutter just throw away the books then. Same effect as it would be in app. You paid for what you no longer can use.

And is paying every month better than paying only when they choose to update rules? Update you might not even WANT to use but now have no choice as you would not even have an option to use old rules? HH case rather than stay playing 7th ed rules you prefer you would be forced to either quit completely or switch to 8th ed...

You can't throw away the books and have access to them. That's what an app would solve. Yes, paying monthly is better because if you take a break from the game, when you come back you just have to start your sub up again rather than spending a bunch of money on the new book you need. People playing 7th don't have to quit completely, if their group prefers 7th they will keep playing 7th. The people who prefer 8th will move over to that. Right now, there is no option for people who prefer 8th other than selling their 30k army and just playing 40k, which is the option I chose along with several of my friends. 7th was the absolute worst edition I've played and I've been playing since the 90s. Why they would go out of their way to stay in that ruleset is beyond me.

They stayed with it because of the depth it adds to the game, because the amount of variance you can apply to a single army list (all 18 Legions are based off the same list of units) is greater than you get with 9th. There's more 'character' available. Also, and I want to stress this, Heresy was never intended to be playing against 40k armies. Some of the player-base went with that, but they repeatedly stated that wasn't the intent and it was it's own game using the same framework. Now it is it's own game with a separate framework.

I have no sympathy for people that 'sold there 30k because they can't play against Tau' when you could have used those models with the 8th edition Codices and Indices. It's a separate game, deal with it.

The debate on 7th or 8th has been going for awhile and both sides have merits to their arguments.

I think only time and Forge Worlds sales will make the decision. My guess is 30k HH sales have tanked massively for all units that cannot be used in 40k.

You can see the market for 30k items has tanked on Ebay and in other sales posts as well, I see numerous sales ads now for 30k items selling far below what they should if people had any interest in buying them.

If this reality hasnt already hit FW sales sheets im sure it will soon, as the internet market if you watch it shows what people are buying and what people arent.

The thing that most likely tanked the sales for HH is the slashing of a lot of weapons and upgrades, lack of proper support for the last 2 years, slow delivery on the next black book, backlash against the awful space wolves, book 7 and yep some people staying away because they cant use their armies in 8th (except when they can)

The thing that most likely tanked the sales for HH is the slashing of a lot of weapons and upgrades

The biggest thing for me, R.I.P Mark II marines.

 Formosa wrote:
The thing that most likely tanked the sales for HH is the slashing of a lot of weapons and upgrades, lack of proper support for the last 2 years, slow delivery on the next black book, backlash against the awful space wolves, book 7 and yep some people staying away because they cant use their armies in 8th (except when they can)

I mean, there’s repeatedly a ton of posts on this thread from people whose Heresy scene has dried up. I haven’t bought any Heresy products since the switch, as I preferred 8ed. So did a lot of other people.

I agree that the removal of those products might have affected sales amongst the remaining Heresy players.

But I think that, if there is a slump in sales, it’s liekly because of the decisions around 8ed and the removal of certain products is a symptom of that rather than a cause.

I think ultimately that HH is a "problematic" product for GW in many ways.

It is a game product that is too similar to an existing product and can therefore cut into profits of another. So if they were to fund more development into 30k they would lose out on expanding 40k as both games deal with a relatively similar level of gameplay(larger sci-fi battles). They don't have to deal with this regarding Age of Sigmar as AoS has such a wildly dissimilar theme(sci-fi vs fantasy). Same goes with all of their new games that are all targeting very specific userbases and rarely - if ever - overlap with each other unless you are one of those GW Whales(you have enough disposal income to buy everything). The largest exception there is Kill Team, but even that can serve as a soft stepping point into the larger 40k universe.

In short, GW is probably a little bit afraid of having one game cannibalizing the userbase of another game that is too similar.

Disclaimer: Despite the differences between 7th and 8th rulesets, the games have very similar themes, rule cores, and so on. If you were to take a new player and tell them: This is 40k and has a lot of stuff, and this is 30k that also has a lot of the same stuff, but different. That player wouldn't really see much difference. Show them 40k and AoS and they would be seeing sci-fi and fantasy. I know it is probably heresy to say that 40k and 30k are relatively similar, but on larger business scale they are.

Not interested in 40k anymore, don't know really why, just lost interest for constant power creep, meta lists etc. I still collect HH, slowly, thanks to 8th rules, even though there is still some stuff that is really effective pts wise, and that just, why would I take this ever(no difference to 7.5)?

Yeah, I can see what Eldarsif says as a problem for GW. When Forge World started its Horus Heresy line, it drew heavily from the model range created for 40k (e.g. Mk IV armor) and there was a lot of crossover. You could buy Terminators or Rhinos with Forge World bits and use them in 40k. GW still made money on the underlying plastic vehicles, and the profit on FW’s resin infantry probably wasn’t bad either (I have no idea how it compares to that of a plastic Tactical Marine box).

You can still use them in both games, but 40k is moving towards taller marines with completely new unit types and vehicles. The games won’t look like they’re in the same scale. At that point, is there any overlap between the two games?

Will GW think of every Mk III or Mk IV purchase as a lost Primaris Marine sale? The profit margin might be higher with the latter. And how is Forge World going to sell us a Rhino or Predator when GW replaces those with Repulsor variants? We’ll need Outriders that aren’t based on Scout Bikes, and Storm Eagles not based on the Stormraven. I’m very curious how that’ll be handled.

Carlisimo wrote:
Yeah, I can see what Eldarsif says as a problem for GW. When Forge World started its Horus Heresy line, it drew heavily from the model range created for 40k (e.g. Mk IV armor) and there was a lot of crossover. You could buy Terminators or Rhinos with Forge World bits and use them in 40k. GW still made money on the underlying plastic vehicles, and the profit on FW’s resin infantry probably wasn’t bad either (I have no idea how it compares to that of a plastic Tactical Marine box).

You can still use them in both games, but 40k is moving towards taller marines with completely new unit types and vehicles. The games won’t look like they’re in the same scale. At that point, is there any overlap between the two games?

Will GW think of every Mk III or Mk IV purchase as a lost Primaris Marine sale? The profit margin might be higher with the latter. And how is Forge World going to sell us a Rhino or Predator when GW replaces those with Repulsor variants? We’ll need Outriders that aren’t based on Scout Bikes, and Storm Eagles not based on the Stormraven. I’m very curious how that’ll be handled.

GW owns Forgeworld so every Mk III or Mk IV purchase is probably a sale gained in their books. Now you'll have to buy the marine twice!

Depends , there is such a thing as oversaturating your market, productr fatigue , and profit margins on products.

The money people also really don't want too similar products competing for the same userbase. Not every consumer is a whale that buys everything GW makes and most people pick and choose what they'll go for and exclude other stuff. Offering a new player 30k and 40k to pick from would not increase sales very much as they probably wouldn't identify any difference in the two products.

I also think this is the reason we are seeing Horus Heresy used for games like Adeptus Titanicus. AT is a unique game on its own and differentiates enough from the core games that it could be its own thing.

Sounds like bloodbowl the last 2 decades, until GW brought it back last year. HH will be the same :(

You mean with a thriving organised play community and plenty of models available? That deserves a , not a :(

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
You mean with a thriving organised play community and plenty of models available? That deserves a , not a :(

I think he means a complete lack of official support when it comes to new rules and model releases. Also, a thriving community heavily depends on where you're located. Maybe in the UK it had a healthy community, but the entire Eastern half of the US was pretty empty when it came to Blood Bowl play groups until GW decided to start officially supporting it again. Just because you can find a game of something in gaming clubs in the UK doesn't mean it's popular. Blood Bowl over here was about as popular as college football is over there.

Horus heresy is on life support it seems, Either GW doesn't want competition within itself, or they don't see much point to forgeworld having its own ruleset / separate game.

 Toofast wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
You mean with a thriving organised play community and plenty of models available? That deserves a , not a :(

I think he means a complete lack of official support when it comes to new rules and model releases. Also, a thriving community heavily depends on where you're located. Maybe in the UK it had a healthy community, but the entire Eastern half of the US was pretty empty when it came to Blood Bowl play groups until GW decided to start officially supporting it again. Just because you can find a game of something in gaming clubs in the UK doesn't mean it's popular. Blood Bowl over here was about as popular as college football is over there.

I keep hearing about this "lack of support with rules and model releases" but it's been less then a year since its official ruleset was released, and it's had an FAQ in that time frame as well, and there has been a ton of models released in that year as well, to include a fair number in the last few months. And we're getting rules for 3 more armies in the next couple of months.

It's like people are being purposefully ignorant of the status of the game because they want it to fail so bad.

It's more they don't pay attention because it's not been as in your face as it was in the run-up to and follow on from Inferno. 2018 was a 'quiet' year for the Heresy with fewer major releases and those releases were spaced out.

2019 I expect to have a significant uptick in support and releases from FW.

If they dropped 30k (gradually or not), it wouldnt be a new thing. imo, they did that to fantasy - then later you had people justify the need for AoS because of the lack of sales and creating a self-fulfilling prophecy .

bogalubov wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Fajita Fan wrote:
And knowing GW they'll find all kinds of way to monetize a squad building or rules app. I rather enjoy doing lists at work in Excel because looks an awful lot like work. I do like codices on my iPad though, it's easy to take my whole library and I've lost a couple of my codices over the years when other players have walked off with them.

GW being GW likely would make rules etc subscribe model so a) when you stop paying you lose access to rules b) when GW decides to change rules/edition players have no choice but to switch. Your group prefers old? Well good luck. All rules and gaming aids only shows new. Tough luck.

I'm solidly on the app train. The app being a subscription service (like the AoS currently is) gives GW consistent financials instead of a wax and wane of codex sales. Investors love consistent financials so I think that's a better way to go for GW.

For me it's a win personally, because after more than a decade in the hobby my house is littered with useless books and codexes. At this point in my life I would like to simplify things and stop accumulating clutter. Yes, I do enjoy the feel of a physical book, but that benefit is far outweighed by the anxiety of having all this junk in my house. Plus, whenever they choose to update rules I need to pay more money to get that new book. Or if there's an FAQ or rules update now I need to remember that those exist and either print it or store the file on my phone/tablet.

I understand that other people have other concerns and I'm not the only type of gamer that exists so my thoughts don't apply to everyone. However, moving to an app based platform is a win for GW, has benefits of seamless updates and the future generation of gamers might not even know how to use a book and they will be future customers.

I just wanted to pop in and agree with what you said about the AoS app. I'm buying into AoS currently, and was nervous about the app. I was shocked beyond belief when I saw that it was a 99 cent per month service, as I was expecting something along the order of 10USD or higher. If they were to go this rout for all of their games, perhaps even combining everything into one app, I would pay 9.99 per month or more for that.

An app would be fantastic. Lore and stories could be one book that doesn't have to be updated every generation/edition, and all rules would go through the app.

 djones520 wrote:

 Toofast wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
You mean with a thriving organised play community and plenty of models available? That deserves a , not a :(

I think he means a complete lack of official support when it comes to new rules and model releases. Also, a thriving community heavily depends on where you're located. Maybe in the UK it had a healthy community, but the entire Eastern half of the US was pretty empty when it came to Blood Bowl play groups until GW decided to start officially supporting it again. Just because you can find a game of something in gaming clubs in the UK doesn't mean it's popular. Blood Bowl over here was about as popular as college football is over there.

I keep hearing about this "lack of support with rules and model releases" but it's been less then a year since its official ruleset was released, and it's had an FAQ in that time frame as well, and there has been a ton of models released in that year as well, to include a fair number in the last few months. And we're getting rules for 3 more armies in the next couple of months.

It's like people are being purposefully ignorant of the status of the game because they want it to fail so bad.

You hit it right on the nose there.
Some people have an emotional need to watch something fail purely due to spite and are so blinded by that spite that they cant look at the situation for what it is.
Most of the time tho people like that have emotional issues that are far bigger than just the goings on of this hobby, and trying to have a rational discussion with them is like talking to a brick wall that insists on using circular reasoning and defines supposition as fact.

As a relatively new player to Horus Heresy (about two years), I would love to see it get more support, or at the very least not slowly killed off over time as more kits are discontinued than added. The breakneck pace of releases from GamesWorkshop over the past year has had very little for Horus Heresy. So I have been excited to see a few really nice, new models being released lately. Hopefully a sign of continued support. I don't need to see constant newness (as I am a slow painter anyway!) but I don't like the feeling that kits I have my eye on will disappear overnight with hardly a "last chance to buy" in some cases.

But I also think this screen shot from Warhammer Community says a lot about where GamesWorkshop ranks Horus Heresy. Clearly, it is no more than a third-tier specialist game as it does not even rank as highly as BloodBowl to show up when you hover over the link for "Our Games".




I would be happy if they keep Heresy as a niche game (it doesn't need to be a flagship product), but I just hope they continue to support it and keep it alive and kicking. The models are gorgeous, the setting is epic and intensely interesting. The rules are secondary to me since my brother and I just play campaigns together.

These may be dark days, but we stand resolute against all odds.

Some people have an emotional need to watch something fail purely due to spite and are so blinded by that spite that they cant look at the situation for what it is.

 Toofast wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
If you want to get rid of clutter just throw away the books then. Same effect as it would be in app. You paid for what you no longer can use.

And is paying every month better than paying only when they choose to update rules? Update you might not even WANT to use but now have no choice as you would not even have an option to use old rules? HH case rather than stay playing 7th ed rules you prefer you would be forced to either quit completely or switch to 8th ed...

You can't throw away the books and have access to them. That's what an app would solve. Yes, paying monthly is better because if you take a break from the game, when you come back you just have to start your sub up again rather than spending a bunch of money on the new book you need. People playing 7th don't have to quit completely, if their group prefers 7th they will keep playing 7th. The people who prefer 8th will move over to that. Right now, there is no option for people who prefer 8th other than selling their 30k army and just playing 40k, which is the option I chose along with several of my friends. 7th was the absolute worst edition I've played and I've been playing since the 90s. Why they would go out of their way to stay in that ruleset is beyond me.

You wouldn't have access to the app either if GW goes for subscribe model like I described...GW updates rules to new edition? There went your old edition rules. Poof. No more access to your rules. If GW would be real evil they would make game so that it literally requires app somewhere so even if you had print screened everything you STILL wouldn't be able to play.

App and subscribtion=you don't pay for rules. You pay for access to them. Access that lasts as only as you pay and they give them to you. You don't have permanent access to them and if GW wants they can do physical equilavent of literally coming to your home and taking every book you had with you.

So those who preferred 7th ed wouldn't HAVE option to play the vastly superior 7th ed over the broken illogical junk that the 8th ed is. They wake up and their app has rules for 8th ed. Not 7th. "I paid for them!" you cry. No. You paid access to rules GW provides which they then switched to 8th ed.

So yes throwing away books would be equilavent to subscribtion model I described(you DID read what I wrote in the first place right? You didn't just write what you want without even checking if you are even replying to what I said over what you think I said? Seeing I specifically was talking about subscribtion model where you have access only to newest rules GW writes...). You lose access to previous rules. Period. End of story. No more playing with old rules. You don't have option. You either quit paying and playing or switch to new.

tneva82 wrote:
You wouldn't have access to the app either if GW goes for subscribe model like I described...GW updates rules to new edition? There went your old edition rules. Poof. No more access to your rules. If GW would be real evil they would make game so that it literally requires app somewhere so even if you had print screened everything you STILL wouldn't be able to play.

App and subscribtion=you don't pay for rules. You pay for access to them. Access that lasts as only as you pay and they give them to you. You don't have permanent access to them and if GW wants they can do physical equilavent of literally coming to your home and taking every book you had with you.

So those who preferred 7th ed wouldn't HAVE option to play the vastly superior 7th ed over the broken illogical junk that the 8th ed is. They wake up and their app has rules for 8th ed. Not 7th. "I paid for them!" you cry. No. You paid access to rules GW provides which they then switched to 8th ed.

So yes throwing away books would be equilavent to subscribtion model I described(you DID read what I wrote in the first place right? You didn't just write what you want without even checking if you are even replying to what I said over what you think I said? Seeing I specifically was talking about subscribtion model where you have access only to newest rules GW writes...). You lose access to previous rules. Period. End of story. No more playing with old rules. You don't have option. You either quit paying and playing or switch to new.

I see the old rulebooks as garbage that's cluttering my house so the app upgrading to current rules is completely fine with me. I think someone mentioned this above, but it would be best if they split codexes into two separate parts. Physical campaign/background books and then a rules app. So you can hold on to stuff that most people might actually want to read again and then update the rules to be current. For those who are nostalgic for the old rules they can even print them and sell them on demand. Why limit another revenue stream.

bogalubov wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
You wouldn't have access to the app either if GW goes for subscribe model like I described...GW updates rules to new edition? There went your old edition rules. Poof. No more access to your rules. If GW would be real evil they would make game so that it literally requires app somewhere so even if you had print screened everything you STILL wouldn't be able to play.

App and subscribtion=you don't pay for rules. You pay for access to them. Access that lasts as only as you pay and they give them to you. You don't have permanent access to them and if GW wants they can do physical equilavent of literally coming to your home and taking every book you had with you.

So those who preferred 7th ed wouldn't HAVE option to play the vastly superior 7th ed over the broken illogical junk that the 8th ed is. They wake up and their app has rules for 8th ed. Not 7th. "I paid for them!" you cry. No. You paid access to rules GW provides which they then switched to 8th ed.

So yes throwing away books would be equilavent to subscribtion model I described(you DID read what I wrote in the first place right? You didn't just write what you want without even checking if you are even replying to what I said over what you think I said? Seeing I specifically was talking about subscribtion model where you have access only to newest rules GW writes...). You lose access to previous rules. Period. End of story. No more playing with old rules. You don't have option. You either quit paying and playing or switch to new.

.

I see the old rulebooks as garbage that's cluttering my house so the app upgrading to current rules is completely fine with me. I think someone mentioned this above, but it would be best if they split codexes into two separate parts. Physical campaign/background books and then a rules app. So you can hold on to stuff that most people might actually want to read again and then update the rules to be current. For those who are nostalgic for the old rules they can even print them and sell them on demand. Why limit another revenue stream.

Imagine the HH community being told their big black books are completely invalid (except the fluff).
Yea they may have had updates, but an entirely new rule set is a different matter.
That would be a nail in the coffin.

I understand people like to cure their boredom with new shiny things, but sometimes its more sane to just be okay with things the way they are. It might actually draw more lasting interest. Imagine a solid warhammer system that doesn't change for decades - other than adding maybe some new armies/campaigns.

I think the whole living rules, meaning new editions every few years, is gimmicky/convoluted.

Imagine you told 40k players that their rulebooks and codexes are completely invalied except for fluff? Oh wait, they tell us that ever 'few years' ...oh wait, 40k is still live and kicking.
Oh wait, those black books are already not completely valid, because stuff in red books and faq canged already.

Good thing is, most people are not okay with the way things are, because we could still be in middle ages... feth progress and development,right?

 smurfORnot wrote:
Imagine you told 40k players that their rulebooks and codexes are completely invalied except for fluff? Oh wait, they tell us that ever 'few years' ...oh wait, 40k is still live and kicking.
Oh wait, those black books are already not completely valid, because stuff in red books and faq canged already.

Good thing is, most people are not okay with the way things are, because we could still be in middle ages... feth progress and development,right?

Uh yea, the price is a bit more of an investment for the HH. How much do those black books cost? Yea....

Like i said, yes there have been changes, but its still in the same ruleset

'Progress' is not a magical thing that can be applied to every facet of life. Sometimes people just want chocolate cake, not chocolate cake with sprinkles, gummy bears, m&ms....

The whimisical masses can be placated to, but popularity alone doesn't dictate the real charm about some things. There's something called hysteria, and it can make things implode.

So because thing costs more, you should never change it?

Tbh, why buy black books for rules and not fluff? because you can find all rules for legions and units in 2 red books, which already invalidated black books with changes. And red book cost 32pounds, while normal codex costs 30 pounds , so can't really see argument from this side.

 smurfORnot wrote:
So because thing costs more, you should never change it?

No. But just because they 'can' improve an edition, doesn't mean they should. I imagine it affects their customer base in not just a positive way, when the release a new edition. There's a a long term sense, not just the immediate (which everyone seems to transfix on). I'd argue, the more gamey/gimmicky warhammer trends, the less it appeals in a fundamental way. Compile that with GWs own self mutilation of ignoring many avenues they could expore within their franchises (consider what happened to WFB), they instead choose big name, posterity creating goals, to build their resumes. There's also the golden parachute mentality thrown in there too. Just my .02 cents.

 smurfORnot wrote:

Tbh, why buy black books for rules and not fluff? because you can find all rules for legions and units in 2 red books, which already invalidated black books with changes. And red book cost 32pounds, while normal codex costs 30 pounds , so can't really see argument from this side.

You can still get an idea of a unit vs entirely reworking it in a new edition. It's even playable. I reckon a new edition like 8th isn't. Furthermore, FAQs are free, and do not require any investment.

Don't know what point you are trying to make with red book and normal codex. As though 30 gbp (which is probably more in US) is just meh, and not a big deal? I mean sure, but that's kind of relative. If you're advocating that core rulebook + codex (assuming you only play one list) in whatever side/edition is small change, that's nearly 100 dollars I reckon. Compiled with the fact they put out the newest rules in black books, that changes the weight in the investment significantly, thus my original point.

I just recently purchased books 1-7 (granted discounted - second hand), and... if GW wants to throw them entirely off the road map, okay.... I'm not going to be very happy about it (tbh). As will others throwing around serious money. If they want to continue down the vertical cookie game, that just turns people like me off. If they want to keep finding quick and easy ways to make money, at the cost of meaningful/lasting design, they are tipping things toward a different paradigm that might just gradually blow up in their face - down the road.

I personally feel, after skimming through 3rd edition WFB, that it was probably the better rule set. Sure it could have been streamlined, but not in the realm it was taken. Same with 2nd 40k. Die rolls could have been streamlined along with other things, but they super simplified it for the sake of finding gamey feels (Not going to defend it as the pinnacle of good rules, just the fork in the road). At the heart of 40k, it was meant to be a smaller scale infantry game, now look at it? People think hysterically that it's evolved naturally but I'd argue it hasn't. Instead it's a spectacle of successful product marketing. That's it.

tneva82 wrote:
You lose access to previous rules. Period. End of story. No more playing with old rules. You don't have option. You either quit paying and playing or switch to new.

What would stop me from taking screenshots of the app or typing everything up in a word doc? I could make screenshots, format them as a pdf, and have them printed and bound at Kinkos or Staples for $10. However, I understand why you don't think an app is the way to go now. You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding or be willfully ignorant of how technology works in the year 2019.

 Toofast wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
You lose access to previous rules. Period. End of story. No more playing with old rules. You don't have option. You either quit paying and playing or switch to new.

What would stop me from taking screenshots of the app or typing everything up in a word doc? I could make screenshots, format them as a pdf, and have them printed and bound at Kinkos or Staples for $10. However, I understand why you don't think an app is the way to go now. You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding or be willfully ignorant of how technology works in the year 2019.

But then what happens when you're the only one in your gaming group with screenies of old rules?

Rules are hysterical at the end - app or not.

Well, I'm uncertain about the future of the Horus Heresy. And it makes me sad...

I spent a good chunk of money making my 30k Army. More than I should have. And in two major cities, I found maybe 6 people that played.

Of those guys, half were just using unpainted 40k models and tons of proxies. I get it, it's expensive, totally understand. But it's less fun and immersive to play with a bunch of armless, broken, turretless proxies that are either unpainted or painted different colors. Nothing against anyone on a budget, but it's... kinda disappointing if you've worked hard on your own stuff and get that.

The other half spent more time poring over my models looking for wrong armor marks and griping over mixed mark 3 and 4 armor in squads and complaining that I didn't have squad markings or 'actual legion doors and shoulderpads' on my models.

So, yeah- Horus Heresy for me right now is just a few interesting options I can field in 40k.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Well, I'm uncertain about the future of the Horus Heresy. And it makes me sad...

I spent a good chunk of money making my 30k Army. More than I should have. And in two major cities, I found maybe 6 people that played.

Of those guys, half were just using unpainted 40k models and tons of proxies. I get it, it's expensive, totally understand. But it's less fun and immersive to play with a bunch of armless, broken, turretless proxies that are either unpainted or painted different colors. Nothing against anyone on a budget, but it's... kinda disappointing if you've worked hard on your own stuff and get that.

The other half spent more time poring over my models looking for wrong armor marks and griping over mixed mark 3 and 4 armor in squads and complaining that I didn't have squad markings or 'actual legion doors and shoulderpads' on my models.

So, yeah- Horus Heresy for me right now is just a few interesting options I can field in 40k.

Yea.... at that point, if some guy brought over unfinished models at that magnitude, I'd just tell yourself its okay to be 'that guy'. Tell them, your expectations for the gaming experience, and maybe offer an army of your own for them to use (when you play that person) - assuming you have an extra.

If some guy was bitching about mixed armour marks, during a horus heresy setting, you should have asked where in the lore it states all armies were outfitted at the same time with the same marks, completely. Or squad marking being the same all the time. Or the fact they are not acknowledging the basic essence of a finished army, and leaving it at that.

That's quite a polarized sample of 6 people you got there. You should try to get them all together and have them play each other, the lazy geeks vs anal retentives

 kveldulf wrote:
Yea.... at that point, if some guy brought over unfinished models at that magnitude, I'd just tell yourself its okay to be 'that guy'. Tell them, your expectations for the gaming experience, and maybe offer an army of your own for them to use (when you play that person) - assuming you have an extra.

If I could afford an extra Horus Heresy army, I'd be playing people on my Private Yacht and having my manservant paint my marines.

I'm not a jerk when it comes to people not being able to afford expensive wargaming stuff- in fact, when someone can say "I don't have that because I have to wait until I can afford it after bills"- I actually respect them for that, because I know quite a few people that will spend their entire paycheck on models and fun stuff- then overdraft their account buying instant noodles and the cheapest Peanut Butter and Bread at the store, and don't take care of themselves and their responsibilities as an adult.

So I'm quite tolerant, I'll play, but it's kind of disappointing to drive an hour to a place that actually allows people to play Horus Heresy, to get there and just see something that looks like it was barely cobbled together from the broken remnants of their first Space Marines as a kid, and have to 'pretend' everything is something else.

 kveldulf wrote:
If some guy was bitching about mixed armour marks, during a horus heresy setting, you should have asked where in the lore it states all armies were outfitted at the same time with the same marks, completely. Or squad marking being the same all the time. Or the fact they are not acknowledging the basic essence of a finished army, and leaving it at that.

I get that they want 'Crusade/Heresy Era Armors Only'. That's fair, of course. They want accuracy to a degree, and they've invested a lot of money in the hobby- and just like I said before, have loaded all of those things up and traveled to go play the game... and to some degree, it's not wrong to expect other players to bring a decent-looking and relatively-accurate army to the table. I get that- it's like someone saying "We should play softball", and they show up with just a stick and a tennis ball wearing jeans and boots- and you're there with your nice gloves, cleats, and bat.

However, these guys were nitpicking items that weren't really things to nitpick. Alpha Legion isn't terribly consistent or even sensible with squad markings. There's no reason variations of the Mark 3, 4, 5, and even 6 couldn't be in the same squad, that's actually normal. I'm not gonna bother putting fancy doors on any variation of Rhino and Predator, and I'm not going to get Legion Shoulderpads for every single Space Marine in my Army. Everything else was pretty much a few bored old snobs turning their nose up because despite spending an obscene amount of money to get what I had, I should have apparently spent a few hundred dollars more to make it look even better for them.

Hey, I like the game and all, but not enough to justify spending that kind of money on it- especially as infrequently as they played. They wanted to meet on regular weeknights, early in the mornings, all manner of hours.

Couple that with a lot of FLGS not letting anyone play in there, and it wasn't worth the investment and I honestly regret doing it. Biggest mistake of my life, aside from that time I had Chipotle and got in the hot tub, and said "There's already bubbles, they won't notice if I fart". Spoiler- that fart came with a prize.

 kveldulf wrote:
That's quite a polarized sample of 6 people you got there. You should try to get them all together and have them play each other, the lazy geeks vs anal retentives

Nah, I'd rather bring the poorer guys over to play 40k or Kill Team. The elitist snobs can do their 'one game a month, after all troops are inspected to meet standards for play, focus on playing the game with no small talk' thing on Tuesdays at 4 PM in some abandoned retirement home cafeteria or whatever it is.

 Toofast wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
You lose access to previous rules. Period. End of story. No more playing with old rules. You don't have option. You either quit paying and playing or switch to new.

What would stop me from taking screenshots of the app or typing everything up in a word doc? I could make screenshots, format them as a pdf, and have them printed and bound at Kinkos or Staples for $10. However, I understand why you don't think an app is the way to go now. You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding or be willfully ignorant of how technology works in the year 2019.

You know what would be WAY easier than taking screenshots of very single page of an app and having them bound and printed just in case the game you like gets updated in a way you don’t?

Printed rulebooks.

 smurfORnot wrote:
So because thing costs more, you should never change it?...

Isn't it fascinating how the people who charge you the most money for rules are also the ones that do complete overhauls the most frequently?

40k has gone from 3rd to 8th in the last fifteen years (six editions), Warmachine and Infinity have both gone from 1st to 3rd (three editions) in the same period.

And which game has more popularity?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
And which game has more popularity?

Not going to open this can of worms right now.

Just trying to observe that if regular edition changes requiring players to spend $100+ (US) on new hardback rulebooks every two years were the economic necessity people seem to think it is there wouldn't be long-running miniatures games that don't subscribe to the model.

 kveldulf wrote:

But then what happens when you're the only one in your gaming group with screenies of old rules?

You print them out and hand the copies to the people in your play group.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ArbitorIan wrote:

 Toofast wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
You lose access to previous rules. Period. End of story. No more playing with old rules. You don't have option. You either quit paying and playing or switch to new.

What would stop me from taking screenshots of the app or typing everything up in a word doc? I could make screenshots, format them as a pdf, and have them printed and bound at Kinkos or Staples for $10. However, I understand why you don't think an app is the way to go now. You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding or be willfully ignorant of how technology works in the year 2019.

You know what would be WAY easier than taking screenshots of very single page of an app and having them bound and printed just in case the game you like gets updated in a way you don’t?

Printed rulebooks.

The problem with printed rulebooks is how long the turn around time is. Look at chapter approved, it fixed the meta from March-April instead of the current meta because they need time to have the book printed and shipped all over the world. It's the same reason 30k is stuck in 7th, they can't invalidate years worth of books. Look at the clusterfeth of Necromunda book releases. Every major problem and complaint about the way GW does rules is because they strictly adhere to a 30 year old way of releasing their rules. If rules were digital, 30k would be in 8th edition, chapter approved would actually address the current meta instead of the meta from 6-8 months ago, and you wouldn't need 8 different books to have all the rules for a skirmish game.

The HH just got a few new previews for the weekender, including new Praetors, BA terminators and a new ordinatus.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/01/21/new-horus-heresy-models-revealed/

Man, they really need to work on their studio paintjobs. They're consistently undermining their own sculpts.

I am glad to see more new Horus Heresy models. Those Blood Angel paladins look nice.

As a White Scars player, I am still hoping for some Vth Legion models sometime, but I am OK with them focusing on the more-popular Blood Angels first if it helps boost sales and renew interest in the game. Just as long as they give us a White Scars character mounted on a bike or jetbike someday.

 Elbows wrote:
Man, they really need to work on their studio paintjobs. They're consistently undermining their own sculpts.

The new night lords models look like something I would paint, and I'm not even a great painter...

I think it’s the Blood Angels that have a basic paintjob. Compare them to the Praetor models on which every plate goes from orange to dark red.

The Night Lords’ paintjobs stood out to me as being really well done. Look at the texture that’s been painted onto the two Praetors’ armor plates. That’s deliberate and I love it. Not such a big fan of the bat wings, the Terminator Praetor’s weapons, or the hanging torso on the Leviathan (which can’t be an Astartes due to the ribs, so what is it?), but otherwise the models look fine.

Back to the Blood Angels though… do we really want a Praetor model in Tartaros armor and a bodyguard unit in Cataphractii? And while the Crimson Paladins’ detailing is nice, go stare at Phoenix Terminators for a while and look at the gracefulness of their stances and the balance of their visual mass. The new Blood Angels (and the Varagyr, too) look top-heavy and a little clumsy in comparison.

I like the look of the new blood angels...40k rules for the weapon options would be nice and make them maybe actually get more sales.

Interesting on Warhammer community when you click the explore our games tab....30k doesn't have a banner.....but all the others do.....

chaos45 wrote:
Interesting on Warhammer community when you click the explore our games tab....30k doesn't have a banner.....but all the others do.....

Adeptus Titanicus doesn't...

chaos45 wrote:
Interesting on Warhammer community when you click the explore our games tab....30k doesn't have a banner.....but all the others do.....

None of the forgeworld games do

 The Riddle of Steel wrote:
As a relatively new player to Horus Heresy (about two years), I would love to see it get more support, or at the very least not slowly killed off over time as more kits are discontinued than added. The breakneck pace of releases from GamesWorkshop over the past year has had very little for Horus Heresy. So I have been excited to see a few really nice, new models being released lately. Hopefully a sign of continued support. I don't need to see constant newness (as I am a slow painter anyway!) but I don't like the feeling that kits I have my eye on will disappear overnight with hardly a "last chance to buy" in some cases.

But I also think this screen shot from Warhammer Community says a lot about where GamesWorkshop ranks Horus Heresy. Clearly, it is no more than a third-tier specialist game as it does not even rank as highly as BloodBowl to show up when you hover over the link for "Our Games".




I would be happy if they keep Heresy as a niche game (it doesn't need to be a flagship product), but I just hope they continue to support it and keep it alive and kicking. The models are gorgeous, the setting is epic and intensely interesting. The rules are secondary to me since my brother and I just play campaigns together.

These may be dark days, but we stand resolute against all odds.

This is exciting.

It looks like he's surfing down the rock pillar.

The sculpt isn't that good, certainly not the best in the series, but I'm just glad he's here at all.

I think it's a tremendous sculpt.

I'm very pleased with the sculpt, and when we get a 360 series, I'm sure it'll be even better.

If I had one critique, it's that there's no traitor marines down at the bottom that he's about to skewer.

 djones520 wrote:
I'm very pleased with the sculpt, and when we get a 360 series, I'm sure it'll be even better.

If I had one critique, it's that there's no traitor marines down at the bottom that he's about to skewer.

I’m betting the collector’s edition scenic base has a Bloodthirster he’s about to skewer on it.

Kinda surprised, figured he would have been the last one to be released. I guess that honor will likely be the Lion then. As for the model, it's ok. I like the face, wings, and armor. The sword is a little strange looking and kind small and I really don't like how he is attached to the rock.

It's just Jagatai Khan and Lion el'Jonson to go now, is that right?

Yup.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
It's just Jagatai Khan and Lion el'Jonson to go now, is that right?

There's also Omegon. There's a rumor his rules are also in the upcoming book.

Book 8 will be available to pre-order soon with a drop date of Mid march, and the Dreadnought Drop Pod is back!

Such a shame Horus Heresy is dead, and we don't get any new models for it or anything.

Now we are, Also so far I love the design on the blood angel praeotrs/Raldoron. sanguinius is way better with full base.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
It's just Jagatai Khan and Lion el'Jonson to go now, is that right?

As well as updated versions of the Primachs who were altered or changed during the war.

Has the Forgeworld price hike hurt their HH sales at all?

I was beyond shocked when I logged in to see what a unit of terminators now costs! 130$ for 5!? That is beyond insane! I already thought 100$ was too much for a primarch model, and now I see they're nearly doubled in price, what the heck is going on
?

 Togusa wrote:
Has the Forgeworld price hike hurt their HH sales at all?

I was beyond shocked when I logged in to see what a unit of terminators now costs! 130$ for 5!? That is beyond insane! I already thought 100$ was too much for a primarch model, and now I see they're nearly doubled in price, what the heck is going on
?

Check your delivery country, I'm showing US prices on Termies between $62 and $93. Which is still ridiculous...

 necrontyrOG wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
Has the Forgeworld price hike hurt their HH sales at all?

I was beyond shocked when I logged in to see what a unit of terminators now costs! 130$ for 5!? That is beyond insane! I already thought 100$ was too much for a primarch model, and now I see they're nearly doubled in price, what the heck is going on
?

Check your delivery country, I'm showing US prices on Termies between $62 and $93. Which is still ridiculous...

Thanks,

Also, Aus. Poor AUS.

Yeah, I don’t understand why GW/FW keep getting enough sales in Australia and New Zealand to maintain their pricing structure.

It’s not surprising that the UK has taken over in the world of 30k podcasting, after a very slow start relative to Australia, the US, and Canada. (To be fair, the first dedicated 30k podcast was British, but it slowed way down for a while.)

Anyone else underwhelmed by the White Scars minis? It looks like someone was given a bunch of random ideas and just shotgunned them all over the models. It may also just be the really really poor paintjobs from FW studio models lately.

 Elbows wrote:
Anyone else underwhelmed by the White Scars minis? It looks like someone was given a bunch of random ideas and just shotgunned them all over the models. It may also just be the really really poor paintjobs from FW studio models lately.

the studio paint jobs have always lacked something and the white scars dreds are just another example. they always feel cold when should be hot and vice-versa. I'm currently working on my Salamanders legion contemptor specifically to make it look better than the studio version.

I do really like the hammered bronze look on the Leviathan & Contemptor. But the studios stuff is to make it look good enough so when you look at it, you can figure out what to do with it. But not Golden demon level so people dont think subconsciously "I cant make it look that good, so I shouldnt buy it".

Carlisimo wrote:
Yeah, I don’t understand why GW/FW keep getting enough sales in Australia and New Zealand to maintain their pricing structure.

They don't; in their last report AUS/NZ were the only region to not post growth.

The major issue is that there are a lot of whales, who go in on every single release. I know of multiple people who buy every new release each week, and have done so for at least a few years.

 Elbows wrote:
Anyone else underwhelmed by the White Scars minis? It looks like someone was given a bunch of random ideas and just shotgunned them all over the models. It may also just be the really really poor paintjobs from FW studio models lately.

It is the pain job. The models are stunning when you look at their unpainted versions. GW and FW have a particular style of painting that I think trends more towards eye catching than... What I would call a desirable color scheme. Like the 40k Deathguard and Nurgle models. The studio paint jobs are very cartoony/goofy. When you see other painters paint them with darker colors, they actually look frightening.

The funny thing is 30k players are growing in the AUS and the USA, but that is because of the use of recasters.

Given the insane prices, I am fine with that.

LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:
The funny thing is 30k players are growing in the AUS and the USA, but that is because of the use of recasters.

Given the insane prices, I am fine with that.

I would hope that this would signal to GW that their pricing structure for international customers is out of sync. Unfortunately, knowing GW, a big fat NOPE!

They basically priced me out of a good portion of their range. I'll still buy smaller stuff(under $100ish) but I was looking at a Warhound or a Fellblade & now I just cant justify the cost and I will never buy counterfeit. Maybe if I go over to the UK I'll stop buy Nottingham and buy one direct from the source.

FW needs another plastic big box to lessen the barrier to entry. Calth & Prospero were great values and a MKV plastic kit would look dope. It could also be a way to make a plastic deimos rhino or something else that's dope(leviathan anyone?).

Loving those white scars! Can't wait for their release!

Winter wrote:

Carlisimo wrote:
Yeah, I don’t understand why GW/FW keep getting enough sales in Australia and New Zealand to maintain their pricing structure.

They don't; in their last report AUS/NZ were the only region to not post growth.

The major issue is that there are a lot of whales, who go in on every single release. I know of multiple people who buy every new release each week, and have done so for at least a few years.

How in the world do they have time to build all of that, let alone paint it? Even if they do, they couldn't possibly have any time to actually play with it after they've done all that. Do they just collect them to have a room full of unopened boxes they might get to one day?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:
The funny thing is 30k players are growing in the AUS and the USA, but that is because of the use of recasters.

Given the insane prices, I am fine with that.

In my circles, the only thing the price hike did was convince people to finally do some research and try recasts. Several of them have equal quality to FW at 30-50% of the price. At least one I know of uses non-toxic resin that looks just like FWs. You literally can't tell the difference even before the pieces have been cleaned up and glued together. I've seen people post pics on Facebook groups of models from that recaster and nobody even questions them at all. They look 100% legit.

 Toofast wrote:

Winter wrote:

Carlisimo wrote:
Yeah, I don’t understand why GW/FW keep getting enough sales in Australia and New Zealand to maintain their pricing structure.

They don't; in their last report AUS/NZ were the only region to not post growth.

The major issue is that there are a lot of whales, who go in on every single release. I know of multiple people who buy every new release each week, and have done so for at least a few years.

How in the world do they have time to build all of that, let alone paint it? Even if they do, they couldn't possibly have any time to actually play with it after they've done all that. Do they just collect them to have a room full of unopened boxes they might get to one day?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:
The funny thing is 30k players are growing in the AUS and the USA, but that is because of the use of recasters.

Given the insane prices, I am fine with that.

In my circles, the only thing the price hike did was convince people to finally do some research and try recasts. Several of them have equal quality to FW at 30-50% of the price. At least one I know of uses non-toxic resin that looks just like FWs. You literally can't tell the difference even before the pieces have been cleaned up and glued together. I've seen people post pics on Facebook groups of models from that recaster and nobody even questions them at all. They look 100% legit.

Its an open secret here. Hell even some of the local shop owner understand and give zero feths.

LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:

 Toofast wrote:

Winter wrote:

Carlisimo wrote:
Yeah, I don’t understand why GW/FW keep getting enough sales in Australia and New Zealand to maintain their pricing structure.

They don't; in their last report AUS/NZ were the only region to not post growth.

The major issue is that there are a lot of whales, who go in on every single release. I know of multiple people who buy every new release each week, and have done so for at least a few years.

How in the world do they have time to build all of that, let alone paint it? Even if they do, they couldn't possibly have any time to actually play with it after they've done all that. Do they just collect them to have a room full of unopened boxes they might get to one day?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:
The funny thing is 30k players are growing in the AUS and the USA, but that is because of the use of recasters.

Given the insane prices, I am fine with that.

In my circles, the only thing the price hike did was convince people to finally do some research and try recasts. Several of them have equal quality to FW at 30-50% of the price. At least one I know of uses non-toxic resin that looks just like FWs. You literally can't tell the difference even before the pieces have been cleaned up and glued together. I've seen people post pics on Facebook groups of models from that recaster and nobody even questions them at all. They look 100% legit.

Its an open secret here. Hell even some of the local shop owner understand and give zero feths.

It's definitely an unfortunate reality. When someone can get FW quality casts for a fraction of the price, people are hard pressed to resist.

Forge World have done themselves no favours in regards to the recasting situation.

 blood reaper wrote:
Forge World have done themselves no favours in regards to the recasting situation.

There's nothing they can do any more than any of the other miniatures companies being killed by recasters. Most are based in countries with loose copyright laws and medium to high legal corruption. Those same countries can cut corners on everything from wages to equipment costs while European companies are forced to a certain quality and human rights standard. Since people are much more interested in passing legal wage/humanitarian laws than actually buying items created by those laws it's a doomed enterprise from the beginning.

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
Forge World have done themselves no favours in regards to the recasting situation.

There's nothing they can do any more than any of the other miniatures companies being killed by recasters. Most are based in countries with loose copyright laws and medium to high legal corruption. Those same countries can cut corners on everything from wages to equipment costs while European companies are forced to a certain quality and human rights standard. Since people are much more interested in passing legal wage/humanitarian laws than actually buying items created by those laws it's a doomed enterprise from the beginning.

I wouldn't say that there's nothing they can do about it. Some people who buy from recasters will always buy the cheapest thing, even when the price difference is not great. But there are other people who will buy from the legitimate source if the price/quality/customer service are in line with their expectations. FW has continuously failed to live up to that ratio.

After they opened the new warehouse in the US that should have simplified their logistics and allowed for more efficiency in distribution. I would think that you try to make up the investment costs by selling a higher volume of things. Living in opposite land, the prices went up which throttled any chance of growth.

To signal my support of them giving mechanicum units 40k rules I bought the drill when they released 40k rules. The model had release agent all over it and some leaked into the resin and discolored which making the surface more resistant to paint sticking to it. I took a picture and sent it off to FW. They gave me some advice to clean it that might melt the resin if I wasn't careful and didn't try to give me a non-garbage model. I later came into possession of a recast version of the model. It was perfect and wasn't layered in goo.

I think most of us have similar stories. FW continues to charge for premium products sold in a boutique customer care environment, but the reality doesn't match up. So what could they do to boost sales and overcome recasters? They can literally try anything from sales 101, but they choose to do nothing and continue to under fund that department.

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
Forge World have done themselves no favours in regards to the recasting situation.

There's nothing they can do any more than any of the other miniatures companies being killed by recasters. Most are based in countries with loose copyright laws and medium to high legal corruption. Those same countries can cut corners on everything from wages to equipment costs while European companies are forced to a certain quality and human rights standard. Since people are much more interested in passing legal wage/humanitarian laws than actually buying items created by those laws it's a doomed enterprise from the beginning.

They could not kill off product lines that people want, not have unreasonable pricing for things or just be better in general.

I think they've been ceasing production of things people didn't want.

Which is why so many people were happy at the removal of things. Wait a minute.....

There's a vocal group that don't like that some items that they may have wanted to buy but kept actually not (or who were always looking at them and going 'maybe next paycheck').
FW is aware of high demand for MK2 armour at things like the Weekender and have replied with 'maybe we'll bring them back' but gave no guarantees.

No matter how much people on forums will say they wanted something that's no longer available now there was a clear situation of items just not selling, which was why they will have been removed. No company normally cuts items that are selling.

Kindly cease all recast discussion, thank you.

 BroodSpawn wrote:

No matter how much people on forums will say they wanted something that's no longer available now there was a clear situation of items just not selling, which was why they will have been removed. No company normally cuts items that are selling.

The thing is, it's not like Forgeworld was sitting on a pile of unsold stock. They can cast as needed. So their excuse for dropping various stuff was that it was the molds that were taking up too much storage space.

 BrookM wrote:
Kindly cease all recast discussion, thank you.

kInDlY cEaSe AlL rEcAsT dIsCuSsIoN, tHaNk YoU.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 BroodSpawn wrote:

No matter how much people on forums will say they wanted something that's no longer available now there was a clear situation of items just not selling, which was why they will have been removed. No company normally cuts items that are selling.

The thing is, it's not like Forgeworld was sitting on a pile of unsold stock. They can cast as needed. So their excuse for dropping various stuff was that it was the molds that were taking up too much storage space.

Well, that and the moulds need to be replaced; if they're not selling enough of a model that it's economical to replace the mould, then they'll stop selling that model.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 BroodSpawn wrote:

No matter how much people on forums will say they wanted something that's no longer available now there was a clear situation of items just not selling, which was why they will have been removed. No company normally cuts items that are selling.

The thing is, it's not like Forgeworld was sitting on a pile of unsold stock. They can cast as needed. So their excuse for dropping various stuff was that it was the molds that were taking up too much storage space.

Well, that and the moulds need to be replaced; if they're not selling enough of a model that it's economical to replace the mould, then they'll stop selling that model.

With the ability to print molds with a 3D printer it is hard to take any of these reasons seriously. They can even say "hey, we're not making new units until we get a certain number of orders for that item". That way you're assured of reaching the profit level. For whatever reason, GW chronically underfunds FW and that is causing all the subsequent issues. Maybe it's as simple as GW doesn't believe that the profit margin is high enough to warrant funding FW to a level where they're not a joke.

Printing molds? My understanding was that they use their best 3D printers (which are constantly booked - takes weeks or months to get a spot in line) to print masters, and they use those to create rubber molds. Resin production as FW does it requires flexible molds. Can that be printed?

The molds are a lot bigger than I would’ve guessed, something like 3 ft in diameter. They each cover a variety of products, and that’s probably why some useful ones got discontinued when poor sellers were culled.

Totally agree though that it feels like GW is holding FW back. Decimate the product line and raise prices that were already keeping people away? Brilliant!

Also, moulds for small run resin have to be made of a flexible material - can you even 3D print to a silicon rubber-type material?

From what I remember, the massive 3ft moulds are the steel ones they use for plastic sprues. The really good 3D printers are used for rapid prototyping of resin models.

The way it works is that you take the original sculpt - green stuff and putty traditionally, but now a 3D print of a CAD model - and make a master mould of that. Quite often, the original model won't survive the moulding process. You then cast up a dozen or so master models and use those to make production moulds, which are then used to manufacture the actual models sold to the public.

You do this two-step process because a production mould will have a dozen or so copies of a single model, unlike the master mould which will only have the one.

The production moulds don't last forever and wear out. Replacing these costs time and money, so if it gets to the point that sales don't justify the expense of doing that, they'll get retired instead.

There's also the logistics, of warehouse space for moulds and for finished products, the time and other resources required and the like. Doing short runs is less efficient than repeated batches of the same things.