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 BroodSpawn wrote:
Also the timescale for books is off. FW have stated (and I wish I could find the link) that they plan on re-releasing the red Legion's book in 2020 with rules for ALL the Legions, so by that argument Book 9 (the one that actually matters ) should be out before then

Yeah, but FW have stated a ton of stuff that then gets delayed by years, or never happens.

I mean, we should have Fires of Cyraxus by now, and Angelus a while ago, and I'm pretty sure there's a Talons update that should be happening.

With FW, I think the safest thing is just to assume nothing is ever going to be released until it suddenly is.


..

I think FW pretty much fell apart over a year ago when it comes to publishing anything of worth.

It would seem that Alan was the only guy there capable of decent work and so with his passing they lost their talent.

I don't think that, but I think they lost a driving force and product champion at about the same time that GW was changing its focus. Heresy is needed a lot less in a company with growing Specialist Games, a thriving 40K, and indices that allow using 30K models for 40K.

From what I have gathered I don't think the change to 8th edition was as sudden as people make out.

New product lines- printed books and future models take a long time for a company to develop...look at sisters of Battle 2019 release so a year + to develop. Since GW seems to do most of its printing overseas- it adds to the timeline a lot, not sure why the company has such a bad presence in technology---its almost 2019 and digital is the future so they need to embrace some technology IMO.

This tells me that FW most likely knew 8th edition was coming far longer than they let on and were absolutely not prepared.

You could also say book 7 was abit of a let down as far as editing, rules an such....which with Alan being Ill means that basically the staff at FW didn't pick up the slack.

In general compared to pre-8th edition FW has been lackluster to say the least and really waffled on projects that were promised- Fires and the new imperial book....basically not releasing anything for their main lines other than some odd models here and there...but nothing rules wise.

chaos45 wrote:
From what I have gathered I don't think the change to 8th edition was as sudden as people make out.

New product lines- printed books and future models take a long time for a company to develop...look at sisters of Battle 2019 release so a year + to develop. Since GW seems to do most of its printing overseas- it adds to the timeline a lot, not sure why the company has such a bad presence in technology---its almost 2019 and digital is the future so they need to embrace some technology IMO.

This tells me that FW most likely knew 8th edition was coming far longer than they let on and were absolutely not prepared.

You could also say book 7 was abit of a let down as far as editing, rules an such....which with Alan being Ill means that basically the staff at FW didn't pick up the slack.

In general compared to pre-8th edition FW has been lackluster to say the least and really waffled on projects that were promised- Fires and the new imperial book....basically not releasing anything for their main lines other than some odd models here and there...but nothing rules wise.

The lack of a 40k app is a bit baffling. The one for AoS has it's issues, but at least it exists and you can use it to build an army list and access unit rules. They have a subscription to get the points and formations. I would gladly pay a subscription for a 40k app that kept my rules/points updated. I can't handle carrying all these books around and keeping track which ones have the correct rules. I know some people want hardcover books and others loathe subscription services, but I think most people would prefer to have an app to track all of this.

In regard to the awful rules writing and maintenance for FW items, I think it gives more credence to the idea of GW scaling back their presence in resin. It's either such a small profit generator that they don't care about it, or they see no future in it and are actively ignoring the potential to make more money from resin.

App for 40k and plethora of books now already released is needed...esp with points fluctuating on some models every 6 months or so.

Listened to an update yesterday from the 40k channel with the FW staff xmas party.

They talked 30k...next book is done and at printers...Book 8

Book 9 is now in the planning phase apparently...what I did notice--30k has about the smallest staff of all the FW lines now....they had 2 artists and 1 rules writer interviewed for 30k line and that was it. Basically 30k is the project of 1 guy that was brought on right before Alan passed away or around the same time as he said he had only been working there for about a year and a half.

Compared to in general larger teams for all the other specialist games they are doing...think only the War in Middle earth team was the same size or smaller...kinda tells you how the emphasis has changed.

chaos45 wrote:
From what I have gathered I don't think the change to 8th edition was as sudden as people make out.
(...)
This tells me that FW most likely knew 8th edition was coming far longer than they let on and were absolutely not prepared.

We know that they knew a new ruleset was coming, and the timing of the Astraeus suggests that they knew about Primaris Marines well in advance (Black Library did too). But Alan Bligh’s response to a seminar question about 8th edition, saying that 30k would always use the current 40k ruleset, suggests that Forge World didn’t know anything about 8th edition other than its release schedule. The magnitude of the change seemed to catch them by surprise.

That was a surprise to us. We had previously heard rumors that the changes from 5th to 6th and 6th to 7th were total surprises to Forge World, but there were also rumors going around that GW was trying to improve its communication with FW. Who knows, maybe it did happen, and FW decided they didn’t have the manpower to deal with it.

Carlisimo wrote:

chaos45 wrote:
From what I have gathered I don't think the change to 8th edition was as sudden as people make out.
(...)
This tells me that FW most likely knew 8th edition was coming far longer than they let on and were absolutely not prepared.

We know that they knew a new ruleset was coming, and the timing of the Astraeus suggests that they knew about Primaris Marines well in advance (Black Library did too). But Alan Bligh’s response to a seminar question about 8th edition, saying that 30k would always use the current 40k ruleset, suggests that Forge World didn’t know anything about 8th edition other than its release schedule. The magnitude of the change seemed to catch them by surprise.

That was a surprise to us. We had previously heard rumors that the changes from 5th to 6th and 6th to 7th were total surprises to Forge World, but there were also rumors going around that GW was trying to improve its communication with FW. Who knows, maybe it did happen, and FW decided they didn’t have the manpower to deal with it.

The writer of FoC flat out said that they were blindsided by it. He had the book done, and ready to be published, and then the 8th rules dropped, and it was such a drastically different system, that they had to shelve the book, for... well ever maybe, given how hard they're being slammed with Specialists Games on top of everything else now.

 djones520 wrote:

Carlisimo wrote:

chaos45 wrote:
From what I have gathered I don't think the change to 8th edition was as sudden as people make out.
(...)
This tells me that FW most likely knew 8th edition was coming far longer than they let on and were absolutely not prepared.

We know that they knew a new ruleset was coming, and the timing of the Astraeus suggests that they knew about Primaris Marines well in advance (Black Library did too). But Alan Bligh’s response to a seminar question about 8th edition, saying that 30k would always use the current 40k ruleset, suggests that Forge World didn’t know anything about 8th edition other than its release schedule. The magnitude of the change seemed to catch them by surprise.

That was a surprise to us. We had previously heard rumors that the changes from 5th to 6th and 6th to 7th were total surprises to Forge World, but there were also rumors going around that GW was trying to improve its communication with FW. Who knows, maybe it did happen, and FW decided they didn’t have the manpower to deal with it.

The writer of FoC flat out said that they were blindsided by it. He had the book done, and ready to be published, and then the 8th rules dropped, and it was such a drastically different system, that they had to shelve the book, for... well ever maybe, given how hard they're being slammed with Specialists Games on top of everything else now.

The only reason I believe that is that it's too dumb to make up.

pm713 wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

Carlisimo wrote:

chaos45 wrote:
From what I have gathered I don't think the change to 8th edition was as sudden as people make out.
(...)
This tells me that FW most likely knew 8th edition was coming far longer than they let on and were absolutely not prepared.

We know that they knew a new ruleset was coming, and the timing of the Astraeus suggests that they knew about Primaris Marines well in advance (Black Library did too). But Alan Bligh’s response to a seminar question about 8th edition, saying that 30k would always use the current 40k ruleset, suggests that Forge World didn’t know anything about 8th edition other than its release schedule. The magnitude of the change seemed to catch them by surprise.

That was a surprise to us. We had previously heard rumors that the changes from 5th to 6th and 6th to 7th were total surprises to Forge World, but there were also rumors going around that GW was trying to improve its communication with FW. Who knows, maybe it did happen, and FW decided they didn’t have the manpower to deal with it.

The writer of FoC flat out said that they were blindsided by it. He had the book done, and ready to be published, and then the 8th rules dropped, and it was such a drastically different system, that they had to shelve the book, for... well ever maybe, given how hard they're being slammed with Specialists Games on top of everything else now.

The only reason I believe that is that it's too dumb to make up.

Well, they don't say without a reason, human stupidity has no limits...

FW is certainly trying their best to kill the HH goose, intentionally or inadvertently. Their latest little reconfiguring of their store that hiked everything up 30-40% did not help. We still have quite a few people who are interested in HH, but literally everyone will use recasts or buy nothing before giving FW a single dime. For me, Malevolence will probably be my last direct purchase, since it will likely also be the last or second to last book.

So now they have an aged ruleset that they failed to do more with, the entry boxes are discontinued, most of the legion-specific upgrade parts are gone, and Primaris make the stumpy marines less desirable in the first place. Add Titanicus (which is pretty sweet) and the other specialty games, and you have a lot of pressures on HH.

Now if they resized all of the HH armors and upgrade kits to be true scale, that would probably tempt me, but they would also charge $20 per marine.

chaos45 wrote:
I think FW pretty much fell apart over a year ago when it comes to publishing anything of worth.

It would seem that Alan was the only guy there capable of decent work and so with his passing they lost their talent.

It seems that Alan was the the last person at GW that didn’t think MTG was the pinnacle of modern game design.

Pancakey wrote:

chaos45 wrote:
I think FW pretty much fell apart over a year ago when it comes to publishing anything of worth.

It would seem that Alan was the only guy there capable of decent work and so with his passing they lost their talent.

It seems that Alan was the the last person at GW that didn’t think MTG was the pinnacle of modern game design.

I can agree with that. I hate MTG with a passion.

HandofMars wrote:
FW is certainly trying their best to kill the HH goose, intentionally or inadvertently. Their latest little reconfiguring of their store that hiked everything up 30-40% did not help.

Well thats Brexit prep, and you cant really blame them considering whats coming at the end of March.

Tough in all fairness. The pound took a beating in value after the referendum/ during the negotiations leading to FW accidentally having a massive sale. They "corrected" that back when they switched to using local currency.

 Earth127 wrote:
Tough in all fairness. The pound took a beating in value after the referendum/ during the negotiations leading to FW accidentally having a massive sale. They "corrected" that back when they switched to using local currency.

As a seller of goods, you want your currency to be cheap. It's easier to sell things when they are cheaper. By raising the prices for foreign buyers they just cut their sales volume. It makes no real sense.

More to the point if no deal happens a company that exports 75% of it's product is in major trouble from tariffs as well as currency fluctuations.

Hence the expense of setting up manufacturing in the US to make stuff to supply the US market.

FW's main problem is that a lot of the talent has now left for the Specialist Games studio or somewhere else, which is what gave us the Awuuu pattern bolters and banana fur.

The next black book will be out massively late and we'll have to see how well written it is, but given the mess Inferno was and the problems it caused both for Horus Heresy and 40k hopefully someone is going over it with a fine tooth comb for issues with editing, the background and the rules.

Ben2 wrote:
h opefully someone is going over it with a fine tooth comb for issues with editing, the background and the rules.

I don't think that's ever happened for any GW publication. I'm pretty sure every book released in 8th edition for 40k has needed day 1 errata. It baffles me that GW refuses to switch to an online source for rules and just charge a subscription fee, while selling fluff and model pictures in printed books. Their die hard fans will still buy the overpriced and unnecessary books, while the people who just want to play the game will pay the sub fee for the rules. Rules can be changed and updated on the fly. If they went with mobile apps, your phone could even notify you when an errata has been implemented, points have been changed, etc. However, GW will continue to act like this is 1972 and the only way to produce rules is in print format, so they will continue to be 8 months behind with balance changes and sell books that have errors the day they're released.

Every time someone brings up the go digital thing I have to wonder, is it because that's easier for you or because it would be healthier for the games?

Going digital only for rules is a barrier to these games. It requires everyone to have a device capable of handling the data, the ability for that data to be clear and readable on every type of device, the devices to be charged and with a battery life long enough to manage multiple games.

You now also have the issues of usability: how does someone look up a USR, where do you find the legion traits, how do I show my opponent a rule if they don't have that subscription option in the device to see said rules (AoS app as an example).

Digital only rules is a bad idea for 40k and by extension Heresy. The formatting and way the various rules are designed doesn't aid in it, and before you say 'just change it' you're expecting a major overhaul to a formatting system for the sake of then selling less product (because no one will buy a book that is just pretty pictures unless it's a paint guide, and even those aren't high sales compared to a codex with models, fluff and rules)

I agree wotj brood to a point, digital only is bad, both digital and hardcopy as an option is fine.

Digital support with printed hard copies is what AoS has now, and arguably what we have with the various epub/mobi/iTunes versions of books as well. A dedicated app like the one for AoS would be great.

Last we heard they were working on a dedicated app for 40k, though when that's likely to be finished I have no idea. But that's a digression from this thread, and with the way Heresy is built and is likely to be expanded upon it's unlikely that it'll get the same level of support digitally. Much more likely to get it for something like Necromunda than this.

 BroodSpawn wrote:
Every time someone brings up the go digital thing I have to wonder, is it because that's easier for you or because it would be healthier for the games?

Going digital only for rules is a barrier to these games. It requires everyone to have a device capable of handling the data, the ability for that data to be clear and readable on every type of device, the devices to be charged and with a battery life long enough to manage multiple games.

You now also have the issues of usability: how does someone look up a USR, where do you find the legion traits, how do I show my opponent a rule if they don't have that subscription option in the device to see said rules (AoS app as an example).

Digital only rules is a bad idea for 40k and by extension Heresy. The formatting and way the various rules are designed doesn't aid in it, and before you say 'just change it' you're expecting a major overhaul to a formatting system for the sake of then selling less product (because no one will buy a book that is just pretty pictures unless it's a paint guide, and even those aren't high sales compared to a codex with models, fluff and rules)

Because it would be healthier for the game. It would be slightly more difficult to use but far better for the balance of a game if things can be changed in a matter of minutes instead of waiting a year or two for the next printed version of those rules to come out. To make things easier, use a printer to print off the relevant stuff. I already do that for a lot of stuff, buy the ebook version and print the bits I will actually need. You already have to print FAQ, designer commentary, and errata. How hard is it to print a few extra pages? If you don't have a printer, it can be done at the library, Kinkos, a friends house, your parents could do it for you at the office, etc. It's almost 2019, if you're playing Warhammer you have some sort of access to a printer.

So instead of buying a book with all the materials in, I need to buy an ebook and then, at further cost to myself (no matter how great or small that may be) print everything you need or use a digital device. You're creating barriers to entry to the game, no matter how easy it may be for you it's not true for others.

For a bit of an example of a primarily digital only game let's look at Warmachine/Hordes. Everything is downloaded to pdf or accessed through the app. Try to get someone new into that game and you've got to tell them the only way to get rules is to get an app (which they may not have a device that can run it) or that they have to look around online for the downloadable cards... and may not even know which cards, or how many, or what extras they need just to get the core rules to play.
Each of these is a barrier to entry, each of these is fine if you've been in the game a few years as it's making your life easier but it doesn't help newer players and it certainly doesn't help those that aren't technologically savvy. This is why I struggle with people saying that 'it's 2019, GW should just go digital for the health of the game(s)' since there's a prime example from one of it's larger competitors that shows this not to be the case.

 BroodSpawn wrote:
So instead of buying a book with all the materials in, I need to buy an ebook and then, at further cost to myself (no matter how great or small that may be) print everything you need or use a digital device. You're creating barriers to entry to the game, no matter how easy it may be for you it's not true for others.

For a bit of an example of a primarily digital only game let's look at Warmachine/Hordes. Everything is downloaded to pdf or accessed through the app. Try to get someone new into that game and you've got to tell them the only way to get rules is to get an app (which they may not have a device that can run it) or that they have to look around online for the downloadable cards... and may not even know which cards, or how many, or what extras they need just to get the core rules to play.
Each of these is a barrier to entry, each of these is fine if you've been in the game a few years as it's making your life easier but it doesn't help newer players and it certainly doesn't help those that aren't technologically savvy. This is why I struggle with people saying that 'it's 2019, GW should just go digital for the health of the game(s)' since there's a prime example from one of it's larger competitors that shows this not to be the case.

Maybe it's because I'm in the US but I have yet to meet someone (played weekly in 3 different states over the last 10 years) that doesn't have a device that they could get the app on. My almost 70 year old dad and my almost 70 year old uncles all have smartphones. My 4 year old niece has an ipad and can use it well enough to take pictures and use basic apps. You wouldn't need to print much at all, maybe 10-12 pages. At libraries I've been to, they charge 10 cents per page for printing. A library card is free. It's really not difficult to use the app, and print 10-12 pages of stuff you reference often. How do you go to tournaments if you can't print extra copies of your lists? I have to print 10 pages every time I do even a local tournament, because my list is 2 pages and I have to give each opponent a copy of my list along with submitting a copy to the TO and keeping 1 for myself. I just don't see the barrier here.

Just as you know a 4yr old capable of using an iPad well I've known 20-somethings that struggle to enter a formula into Excel, or don't understand how to format a word document for writing a list on. It's this kind of anecdotal issue that doesn't solve the question nor does it help to show an improvement or removal of adding barriers to the games. In fact it's still adding them.

In your case you're an experienced person in this hobby, having an app or digital format greatly helps you since it's less extra paperwork you have to manage. But that doesn't stop it being a barrier for others, some who are in this already. So what if most people have a phone that can handle an app, if they're not comfortable reading the text on a 4" screen it's no longer a benefit over flipping through a book.

The title of this thread is the Future of the Horus Heresy, and if it's going to have a future it needs to be more accessible Now since it's essentially another specialist range that means it needs to be as accessible as Necromunda.or LOTR, and that's down to cheaper/easier ways into the game not by making a product or service that's main appeal will be to the veteran's that have been interested or involved already

 BroodSpawn wrote:


The title of this thread is the Future of the Horus Heresy, and if it's going to have a future it needs to be more accessible Now since it's essentially another specialist range that means it needs to be as accessible as Necromunda.or LOTR, and that's down to cheaper/easier ways into the game not by making a product or service that's main appeal will be to the veteran's that have been interested or involved already

So a rulebook that's $62 plus shipping and only available through Forgeworld makes it more accessible than having an app where you can view the rules for a small subscription fee?

How does someone find out about the app? Where would they get it from? What happens if they don't pay the subscription? How easy is it to navigate the app, how readable is the content? Does it work on phones from 8 years ago or only the most recent? Is it iTunes exclusive?

Compared to: there's a book on the web-store where the rest of the models and range are.


Can you see why I'm arguing that going digital is a barrier to entry greater than the books?

 BroodSpawn wrote:
How does someone find out about the app? Where would they get it from? What happens if they don't pay the subscription? How easy is it to navigate the app, how readable is the content? Does it work on phones from 8 years ago or only the most recent? Is it iTunes exclusive?

Compared to: there's a book on the web-store where the rest of the models and range are.


Can you see why I'm arguing that going digital is a barrier to entry greater than the books?

Before we all clamor for an app let's look over the X-Wing forums and see how FFG's squad building app is going...

And knowing GW they'll find all kinds of way to monetize a squad building or rules app. I rather enjoy doing lists at work in Excel because looks an awful lot like work. I do like codices on my iPad though, it's easy to take my whole library and I've lost a couple of my codices over the years when other players have walked off with them.

 BroodSpawn wrote:
How does someone find out about the app? Where would they get it from? What happens if they don't pay the subscription? How easy is it to navigate the app, how readable is the content? Does it work on phones from 8 years ago or only the most recent? Is it iTunes exclusive?

Compared to: there's a book on the web-store where the rest of the models and range are.


Can you see why I'm arguing that going digital is a barrier to entry greater than the books?

The same way they find out about the rulebook, have a link to it on the front page of the GW and FW websites. They would get it from the google play or itunes store, like every other app. The same thing that happens if they don't pay for the new edition of the rulebook or codex, they don't have access to the rules. As easy as it is to navigate the app they already use for AoS. Probably the last 4-5 years, like most other smartphone apps with lots of features. Of course it isn't itunes exclusive, why would it be?

I feel you glossed over my main point by going 'easy, they can do this, look it's not hard to do' to those questions. And that is you're adding a barrier to the game that having the books on sale doesn't.