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Made in hr
Regular Dakkanaut





Imagine you told 40k players that their rulebooks and codexes are completely invalied except for fluff? Oh wait, they tell us that ever 'few years' ...oh wait, 40k is still live and kicking.
Oh wait, those black books are already not completely valid, because stuff in red books and faq canged already.

Good thing is, most people are not okay with the way things are, because we could still be in middle ages... feth progress and development,right?
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






 smurfORnot wrote:
Imagine you told 40k players that their rulebooks and codexes are completely invalied except for fluff? Oh wait, they tell us that ever 'few years' ...oh wait, 40k is still live and kicking.
Oh wait, those black books are already not completely valid, because stuff in red books and faq canged already.

Good thing is, most people are not okay with the way things are, because we could still be in middle ages... feth progress and development,right?


Uh yea, the price is a bit more of an investment for the HH. How much do those black books cost? Yea....

Like i said, yes there have been changes, but its still in the same ruleset

'Progress' is not a magical thing that can be applied to every facet of life. Sometimes people just want chocolate cake, not chocolate cake with sprinkles, gummy bears, m&ms....

The whimisical masses can be placated to, but popularity alone doesn't dictate the real charm about some things. There's something called hysteria, and it can make things implode.

Age of Sigmar - It's sorta like a clogged toilet, where the muck crests over the rim and onto the floor. Somehow 'ground marines' were created from this...
 
   
Made in hr
Regular Dakkanaut





So because thing costs more, you should never change it?

Tbh, why buy black books for rules and not fluff? because you can find all rules for legions and units in 2 red books, which already invalidated black books with changes. And red book cost 32pounds, while normal codex costs 30 pounds , so can't really see argument from this side.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






 smurfORnot wrote:
So because thing costs more, you should never change it?



No. But just because they 'can' improve an edition, doesn't mean they should. I imagine it affects their customer base in not just a positive way, when the release a new edition. There's a a long term sense, not just the immediate (which everyone seems to transfix on). I'd argue, the more gamey/gimmicky warhammer trends, the less it appeals in a fundamental way. Compile that with GWs own self mutilation of ignoring many avenues they could expore within their franchises (consider what happened to WFB), they instead choose big name, posterity creating goals, to build their resumes. There's also the golden parachute mentality thrown in there too. Just my .02 cents.

 smurfORnot wrote:

Tbh, why buy black books for rules and not fluff? because you can find all rules for legions and units in 2 red books, which already invalidated black books with changes. And red book cost 32pounds, while normal codex costs 30 pounds , so can't really see argument from this side.


You can still get an idea of a unit vs entirely reworking it in a new edition. It's even playable. I reckon a new edition like 8th isn't. Furthermore, FAQs are free, and do not require any investment.

Don't know what point you are trying to make with red book and normal codex. As though 30 gbp (which is probably more in US) is just meh, and not a big deal? I mean sure, but that's kind of relative. If you're advocating that core rulebook + codex (assuming you only play one list) in whatever side/edition is small change, that's nearly 100 dollars I reckon. Compiled with the fact they put out the newest rules in black books, that changes the weight in the investment significantly, thus my original point.

I just recently purchased books 1-7 (granted discounted - second hand), and... if GW wants to throw them entirely off the road map, okay.... I'm not going to be very happy about it (tbh). As will others throwing around serious money. If they want to continue down the vertical cookie game, that just turns people like me off. If they want to keep finding quick and easy ways to make money, at the cost of meaningful/lasting design, they are tipping things toward a different paradigm that might just gradually blow up in their face - down the road.

I personally feel, after skimming through 3rd edition WFB, that it was probably the better rule set. Sure it could have been streamlined, but not in the realm it was taken. Same with 2nd 40k. Die rolls could have been streamlined along with other things, but they super simplified it for the sake of finding gamey feels (Not going to defend it as the pinnacle of good rules, just the fork in the road). At the heart of 40k, it was meant to be a smaller scale infantry game, now look at it? People think hysterically that it's evolved naturally but I'd argue it hasn't. Instead it's a spectacle of successful product marketing. That's it.



This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/01/18 16:04:45


Age of Sigmar - It's sorta like a clogged toilet, where the muck crests over the rim and onto the floor. Somehow 'ground marines' were created from this...
 
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader




Matlacha, FL

tneva82 wrote:
You lose access to previous rules. Period. End of story. No more playing with old rules. You don't have option. You either quit paying and playing or switch to new.


What would stop me from taking screenshots of the app or typing everything up in a word doc? I could make screenshots, format them as a pdf, and have them printed and bound at Kinkos or Staples for $10. However, I understand why you don't think an app is the way to go now. You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding or be willfully ignorant of how technology works in the year 2019.

Roll Tide! Beat everyone!  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






 Toofast wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
You lose access to previous rules. Period. End of story. No more playing with old rules. You don't have option. You either quit paying and playing or switch to new.


What would stop me from taking screenshots of the app or typing everything up in a word doc? I could make screenshots, format them as a pdf, and have them printed and bound at Kinkos or Staples for $10. However, I understand why you don't think an app is the way to go now. You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding or be willfully ignorant of how technology works in the year 2019.


But then what happens when you're the only one in your gaming group with screenies of old rules?

Rules are hysterical at the end - app or not.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/19 01:45:34


Age of Sigmar - It's sorta like a clogged toilet, where the muck crests over the rim and onto the floor. Somehow 'ground marines' were created from this...
 
   
Made in us
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!





Well, I'm uncertain about the future of the Horus Heresy. And it makes me sad...

I spent a good chunk of money making my 30k Army. More than I should have. And in two major cities, I found maybe 6 people that played.

Of those guys, half were just using unpainted 40k models and tons of proxies. I get it, it's expensive, totally understand. But it's less fun and immersive to play with a bunch of armless, broken, turretless proxies that are either unpainted or painted different colors. Nothing against anyone on a budget, but it's... kinda disappointing if you've worked hard on your own stuff and get that.

The other half spent more time poring over my models looking for wrong armor marks and griping over mixed mark 3 and 4 armor in squads and complaining that I didn't have squad markings or 'actual legion doors and shoulderpads' on my models.

So, yeah- Horus Heresy for me right now is just a few interesting options I can field in 40k.

Putting your political and ideological opinions in your signature isn't a clever way to get past the ban.

If you can't put that aside and discuss games with other people, you probably have an obsession and need professional help. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Well, I'm uncertain about the future of the Horus Heresy. And it makes me sad...

I spent a good chunk of money making my 30k Army. More than I should have. And in two major cities, I found maybe 6 people that played.

Of those guys, half were just using unpainted 40k models and tons of proxies. I get it, it's expensive, totally understand. But it's less fun and immersive to play with a bunch of armless, broken, turretless proxies that are either unpainted or painted different colors. Nothing against anyone on a budget, but it's... kinda disappointing if you've worked hard on your own stuff and get that.

The other half spent more time poring over my models looking for wrong armor marks and griping over mixed mark 3 and 4 armor in squads and complaining that I didn't have squad markings or 'actual legion doors and shoulderpads' on my models.

So, yeah- Horus Heresy for me right now is just a few interesting options I can field in 40k.


Yea.... at that point, if some guy brought over unfinished models at that magnitude, I'd just tell yourself its okay to be 'that guy'. Tell them, your expectations for the gaming experience, and maybe offer an army of your own for them to use (when you play that person) - assuming you have an extra.

If some guy was bitching about mixed armour marks, during a horus heresy setting, you should have asked where in the lore it states all armies were outfitted at the same time with the same marks, completely. Or squad marking being the same all the time. Or the fact they are not acknowledging the basic essence of a finished army, and leaving it at that.

That's quite a polarized sample of 6 people you got there. You should try to get them all together and have them play each other, the lazy geeks vs anal retentives

Age of Sigmar - It's sorta like a clogged toilet, where the muck crests over the rim and onto the floor. Somehow 'ground marines' were created from this...
 
   
Made in us
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!





 kveldulf wrote:
Yea.... at that point, if some guy brought over unfinished models at that magnitude, I'd just tell yourself its okay to be 'that guy'. Tell them, your expectations for the gaming experience, and maybe offer an army of your own for them to use (when you play that person) - assuming you have an extra.


If I could afford an extra Horus Heresy army, I'd be playing people on my Private Yacht and having my manservant paint my marines.

I'm not a jerk when it comes to people not being able to afford expensive wargaming stuff- in fact, when someone can say "I don't have that because I have to wait until I can afford it after bills"- I actually respect them for that, because I know quite a few people that will spend their entire paycheck on models and fun stuff- then overdraft their account buying instant noodles and the cheapest Peanut Butter and Bread at the store, and don't take care of themselves and their responsibilities as an adult.

So I'm quite tolerant, I'll play, but it's kind of disappointing to drive an hour to a place that actually allows people to play Horus Heresy, to get there and just see something that looks like it was barely cobbled together from the broken remnants of their first Space Marines as a kid, and have to 'pretend' everything is something else.

 kveldulf wrote:
If some guy was bitching about mixed armour marks, during a horus heresy setting, you should have asked where in the lore it states all armies were outfitted at the same time with the same marks, completely. Or squad marking being the same all the time. Or the fact they are not acknowledging the basic essence of a finished army, and leaving it at that.


I get that they want 'Crusade/Heresy Era Armors Only'. That's fair, of course. They want accuracy to a degree, and they've invested a lot of money in the hobby- and just like I said before, have loaded all of those things up and traveled to go play the game... and to some degree, it's not wrong to expect other players to bring a decent-looking and relatively-accurate army to the table. I get that- it's like someone saying "We should play softball", and they show up with just a stick and a tennis ball wearing jeans and boots- and you're there with your nice gloves, cleats, and bat.

However, these guys were nitpicking items that weren't really things to nitpick. Alpha Legion isn't terribly consistent or even sensible with squad markings. There's no reason variations of the Mark 3, 4, 5, and even 6 couldn't be in the same squad, that's actually normal. I'm not gonna bother putting fancy doors on any variation of Rhino and Predator, and I'm not going to get Legion Shoulderpads for every single Space Marine in my Army. Everything else was pretty much a few bored old snobs turning their nose up because despite spending an obscene amount of money to get what I had, I should have apparently spent a few hundred dollars more to make it look even better for them.

Hey, I like the game and all, but not enough to justify spending that kind of money on it- especially as infrequently as they played. They wanted to meet on regular weeknights, early in the mornings, all manner of hours.

Couple that with a lot of FLGS not letting anyone play in there, and it wasn't worth the investment and I honestly regret doing it. Biggest mistake of my life, aside from that time I had Chipotle and got in the hot tub, and said "There's already bubbles, they won't notice if I fart". Spoiler- that fart came with a prize.

 kveldulf wrote:
That's quite a polarized sample of 6 people you got there. You should try to get them all together and have them play each other, the lazy geeks vs anal retentives


Nah, I'd rather bring the poorer guys over to play 40k or Kill Team. The elitist snobs can do their 'one game a month, after all troops are inspected to meet standards for play, focus on playing the game with no small talk' thing on Tuesdays at 4 PM in some abandoned retirement home cafeteria or whatever it is.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/19 03:47:11


Putting your political and ideological opinions in your signature isn't a clever way to get past the ban.

If you can't put that aside and discuss games with other people, you probably have an obsession and need professional help. 
   
Made in gb
Dispassionate Imperial Judge






HATE Club, East London

 Toofast wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
You lose access to previous rules. Period. End of story. No more playing with old rules. You don't have option. You either quit paying and playing or switch to new.


What would stop me from taking screenshots of the app or typing everything up in a word doc? I could make screenshots, format them as a pdf, and have them printed and bound at Kinkos or Staples for $10. However, I understand why you don't think an app is the way to go now. You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding or be willfully ignorant of how technology works in the year 2019.


You know what would be WAY easier than taking screenshots of very single page of an app and having them bound and printed just in case the game you like gets updated in a way you don’t?

Printed rulebooks.

   
Made in us
Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







 smurfORnot wrote:
So because thing costs more, you should never change it?...


Isn't it fascinating how the people who charge you the most money for rules are also the ones that do complete overhauls the most frequently?

40k has gone from 3rd to 8th in the last fifteen years (six editions), Warmachine and Infinity have both gone from 1st to 3rd (three editions) in the same period.

Victoria est autem vita.

Stories at https://knightofthegrey.wordpress.com/
Game-related musings at https://thescenicdetour.wordpress.com/
Both updated irregularly 
   
Made in us
Leader of the Sept






And which game has more popularity?

5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
 
   
Made in us
Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







 hotsauceman1 wrote:
And which game has more popularity?


Not going to open this can of worms right now.

Just trying to observe that if regular edition changes requiring players to spend $100+ (US) on new hardback rulebooks every two years were the economic necessity people seem to think it is there wouldn't be long-running miniatures games that don't subscribe to the model.

Victoria est autem vita.

Stories at https://knightofthegrey.wordpress.com/
Game-related musings at https://thescenicdetour.wordpress.com/
Both updated irregularly 
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader




Matlacha, FL

 kveldulf wrote:

But then what happens when you're the only one in your gaming group with screenies of old rules?


You print them out and hand the copies to the people in your play group.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ArbitorIan wrote:
 Toofast wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
You lose access to previous rules. Period. End of story. No more playing with old rules. You don't have option. You either quit paying and playing or switch to new.


What would stop me from taking screenshots of the app or typing everything up in a word doc? I could make screenshots, format them as a pdf, and have them printed and bound at Kinkos or Staples for $10. However, I understand why you don't think an app is the way to go now. You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding or be willfully ignorant of how technology works in the year 2019.


You know what would be WAY easier than taking screenshots of very single page of an app and having them bound and printed just in case the game you like gets updated in a way you don’t?

Printed rulebooks.


The problem with printed rulebooks is how long the turn around time is. Look at chapter approved, it fixed the meta from March-April instead of the current meta because they need time to have the book printed and shipped all over the world. It's the same reason 30k is stuck in 7th, they can't invalidate years worth of books. Look at the clusterfeth of Necromunda book releases. Every major problem and complaint about the way GW does rules is because they strictly adhere to a 30 year old way of releasing their rules. If rules were digital, 30k would be in 8th edition, chapter approved would actually address the current meta instead of the meta from 6-8 months ago, and you wouldn't need 8 different books to have all the rules for a skirmish game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/19 23:11:43


Roll Tide! Beat everyone!  
   
Made in de
Been Around the Block




The HH just got a few new previews for the weekender, including new Praetors, BA terminators and a new ordinatus.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/01/21/new-horus-heresy-models-revealed/
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






Man, they really need to work on their studio paintjobs. They're consistently undermining their own sculpts.

 
   
Made in us
Smokin' Skorcha Driver





Houston, TX

I am glad to see more new Horus Heresy models. Those Blood Angel paladins look nice.

As a White Scars player, I am still hoping for some Vth Legion models sometime, but I am OK with them focusing on the more-popular Blood Angels first if it helps boost sales and renew interest in the game. Just as long as they give us a White Scars character mounted on a bike or jetbike someday.

Xhorik 87th Drop Troops P&M blog https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/775655.page

Project log and campaign featuring Orks, Imperial Guard, Marines, Tyranids: http://www.xhorikwar.blogspot.com/
Currently focused on our Horus Heresy campaign with White Scars, Death Guard and Imperial Militia.  
   
Made in us
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Matlacha, FL

 Elbows wrote:
Man, they really need to work on their studio paintjobs. They're consistently undermining their own sculpts.


The new night lords models look like something I would paint, and I'm not even a great painter...

Roll Tide! Beat everyone!  
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




I think it’s the Blood Angels that have a basic paintjob. Compare them to the Praetor models on which every plate goes from orange to dark red.

The Night Lords’ paintjobs stood out to me as being really well done. Look at the texture that’s been painted onto the two Praetors’ armor plates. That’s deliberate and I love it. Not such a big fan of the bat wings, the Terminator Praetor’s weapons, or the hanging torso on the Leviathan (which can’t be an Astartes due to the ribs, so what is it?), but otherwise the models look fine.

Back to the Blood Angels though… do we really want a Praetor model in Tartaros armor and a bodyguard unit in Cataphractii? And while the Crimson Paladins’ detailing is nice, go stare at Phoenix Terminators for a while and look at the gracefulness of their stances and the balance of their visual mass. The new Blood Angels (and the Varagyr, too) look top-heavy and a little clumsy in comparison.
   
Made in it
Regular Dakkanaut




I like the look of the new blood angels...40k rules for the weapon options would be nice and make them maybe actually get more sales.
   
Made in it
Regular Dakkanaut




Interesting on Warhammer community when you click the explore our games tab....30k doesn't have a banner.....but all the others do.....

   
Made in gb
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps





UK

chaos45 wrote:
Interesting on Warhammer community when you click the explore our games tab....30k doesn't have a banner.....but all the others do.....



Adeptus Titanicus doesn't...
   
Made in us
Stubborn Prosecutor





chaos45 wrote:
Interesting on Warhammer community when you click the explore our games tab....30k doesn't have a banner.....but all the others do.....



None of the forgeworld games do

Bender wrote:* Realise that despite the way people talk, this is not a professional sport played by demi gods, but rather a game of toy soldiers played by tired, inebriated human beings.


 lolman1c wrote:
The ork train has no breaks mothersquiggor!
 
   
Made in us
Fate-Controlling Farseer





Fort Campbell

 The Riddle of Steel wrote:
As a relatively new player to Horus Heresy (about two years), I would love to see it get more support, or at the very least not slowly killed off over time as more kits are discontinued than added. The breakneck pace of releases from GamesWorkshop over the past year has had very little for Horus Heresy. So I have been excited to see a few really nice, new models being released lately. Hopefully a sign of continued support. I don't need to see constant newness (as I am a slow painter anyway!) but I don't like the feeling that kits I have my eye on will disappear overnight with hardly a "last chance to buy" in some cases.

But I also think this screen shot from Warhammer Community says a lot about where GamesWorkshop ranks Horus Heresy. Clearly, it is no more than a third-tier specialist game as it does not even rank as highly as BloodBowl to show up when you hover over the link for "Our Games".




I would be happy if they keep Heresy as a niche game (it doesn't need to be a flagship product), but I just hope they continue to support it and keep it alive and kicking. The models are gorgeous, the setting is epic and intensely interesting. The rules are secondary to me since my brother and I just play campaigns together.

These may be dark days, but we stand resolute against all odds.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/24 22:44:39


1st Legion Dark Angels

Eldar Craftworld Eth-Kariel
Spear of Kornous - High Elf Expeditionary Army (Retired) 
   
Made in be
Courageous Beastmaster







This is exciting.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/28 18:11:56





 
   
Made in us
Potent Grey Knight Librarian





Fort Worth, TX

It looks like he's surfing down the rock pillar.

"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me."
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The sculpt isn't that good, certainly not the best in the series, but I'm just glad he's here at all.




 
   
Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






Southeastern PA, USA

I think it's a tremendous sculpt.

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Made in us
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Fort Campbell

I'm very pleased with the sculpt, and when we get a 360 series, I'm sure it'll be even better.

If I had one critique, it's that there's no traitor marines down at the bottom that he's about to skewer.

1st Legion Dark Angels

Eldar Craftworld Eth-Kariel
Spear of Kornous - High Elf Expeditionary Army (Retired) 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Will never settle on one army






Chicago

 djones520 wrote:
I'm very pleased with the sculpt, and when we get a 360 series, I'm sure it'll be even better.

If I had one critique, it's that there's no traitor marines down at the bottom that he's about to skewer.


I’m betting the collector’s edition scenic base has a Bloodthirster he’s about to skewer on it.
   
 
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