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 Fajita Fan wrote:
And knowing GW they'll find all kinds of way to monetize a squad building or rules app. I rather enjoy doing lists at work in Excel because looks an awful lot like work. I do like codices on my iPad though, it's easy to take my whole library and I've lost a couple of my codices over the years when other players have walked off with them.

GW being GW likely would make rules etc subscribe model so a) when you stop paying you lose access to rules b) when GW decides to change rules/edition players have no choice but to switch. Your group prefers old? Well good luck. All rules and gaming aids only shows new. Tough luck.

tneva82 wrote:

 Fajita Fan wrote:
And knowing GW they'll find all kinds of way to monetize a squad building or rules app. I rather enjoy doing lists at work in Excel because looks an awful lot like work. I do like codices on my iPad though, it's easy to take my whole library and I've lost a couple of my codices over the years when other players have walked off with them.

GW being GW likely would make rules etc subscribe model so a) when you stop paying you lose access to rules b) when GW decides to change rules/edition players have no choice but to switch. Your group prefers old? Well good luck. All rules and gaming aids only shows new. Tough luck.

I'm solidly on the app train. The app being a subscription service (like the AoS currently is) gives GW consistent financials instead of a wax and wane of codex sales. Investors love consistent financials so I think that's a better way to go for GW.

For me it's a win personally, because after more than a decade in the hobby my house is littered with useless books and codexes. At this point in my life I would like to simplify things and stop accumulating clutter. Yes, I do enjoy the feel of a physical book, but that benefit is far outweighed by the anxiety of having all this junk in my house. Plus, whenever they choose to update rules I need to pay more money to get that new book. Or if there's an FAQ or rules update now I need to remember that those exist and either print it or store the file on my phone/tablet.

I understand that other people have other concerns and I'm not the only type of gamer that exists so my thoughts don't apply to everyone. However, moving to an app based platform is a win for GW, has benefits of seamless updates and the future generation of gamers might not even know how to use a book and they will be future customers.

If you want to get rid of clutter just throw away the books then. Same effect as it would be in app. You paid for what you no longer can use.

And is paying every month better than paying only when they choose to update rules? Update you might not even WANT to use but now have no choice as you would not even have an option to use old rules? HH case rather than stay playing 7th ed rules you prefer you would be forced to either quit completely or switch to 8th ed...

tneva82 wrote:
If you want to get rid of clutter just throw away the books then. Same effect as it would be in app. You paid for what you no longer can use.

And is paying every month better than paying only when they choose to update rules? Update you might not even WANT to use but now have no choice as you would not even have an option to use old rules? HH case rather than stay playing 7th ed rules you prefer you would be forced to either quit completely or switch to 8th ed...

You can't throw away the books and have access to them. That's what an app would solve. Yes, paying monthly is better because if you take a break from the game, when you come back you just have to start your sub up again rather than spending a bunch of money on the new book you need. People playing 7th don't have to quit completely, if their group prefers 7th they will keep playing 7th. The people who prefer 8th will move over to that. Right now, there is no option for people who prefer 8th other than selling their 30k army and just playing 40k, which is the option I chose along with several of my friends. 7th was the absolute worst edition I've played and I've been playing since the 90s. Why they would go out of their way to stay in that ruleset is beyond me.

 Toofast wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
If you want to get rid of clutter just throw away the books then. Same effect as it would be in app. You paid for what you no longer can use.

And is paying every month better than paying only when they choose to update rules? Update you might not even WANT to use but now have no choice as you would not even have an option to use old rules? HH case rather than stay playing 7th ed rules you prefer you would be forced to either quit completely or switch to 8th ed...

You can't throw away the books and have access to them. That's what an app would solve. Yes, paying monthly is better because if you take a break from the game, when you come back you just have to start your sub up again rather than spending a bunch of money on the new book you need. People playing 7th don't have to quit completely, if their group prefers 7th they will keep playing 7th. The people who prefer 8th will move over to that. Right now, there is no option for people who prefer 8th other than selling their 30k army and just playing 40k, which is the option I chose along with several of my friends. 7th was the absolute worst edition I've played and I've been playing since the 90s. Why they would go out of their way to stay in that ruleset is beyond me.

They stayed with it because of the depth it adds to the game, because the amount of variance you can apply to a single army list (all 18 Legions are based off the same list of units) is greater than you get with 9th. There's more 'character' available. Also, and I want to stress this, Heresy was never intended to be playing against 40k armies. Some of the player-base went with that, but they repeatedly stated that wasn't the intent and it was it's own game using the same framework. Now it is it's own game with a separate framework.

I have no sympathy for people that 'sold there 30k because they can't play against Tau' when you could have used those models with the 8th edition Codices and Indices. It's a separate game, deal with it.

The debate on 7th or 8th has been going for awhile and both sides have merits to their arguments.

I think only time and Forge Worlds sales will make the decision. My guess is 30k HH sales have tanked massively for all units that cannot be used in 40k.

You can see the market for 30k items has tanked on Ebay and in other sales posts as well, I see numerous sales ads now for 30k items selling far below what they should if people had any interest in buying them.

If this reality hasnt already hit FW sales sheets im sure it will soon, as the internet market if you watch it shows what people are buying and what people arent.

The thing that most likely tanked the sales for HH is the slashing of a lot of weapons and upgrades, lack of proper support for the last 2 years, slow delivery on the next black book, backlash against the awful space wolves, book 7 and yep some people staying away because they cant use their armies in 8th (except when they can)

The thing that most likely tanked the sales for HH is the slashing of a lot of weapons and upgrades

The biggest thing for me, R.I.P Mark II marines.

 Formosa wrote:
The thing that most likely tanked the sales for HH is the slashing of a lot of weapons and upgrades, lack of proper support for the last 2 years, slow delivery on the next black book, backlash against the awful space wolves, book 7 and yep some people staying away because they cant use their armies in 8th (except when they can)

I mean, there’s repeatedly a ton of posts on this thread from people whose Heresy scene has dried up. I haven’t bought any Heresy products since the switch, as I preferred 8ed. So did a lot of other people.

I agree that the removal of those products might have affected sales amongst the remaining Heresy players.

But I think that, if there is a slump in sales, it’s liekly because of the decisions around 8ed and the removal of certain products is a symptom of that rather than a cause.

I think ultimately that HH is a "problematic" product for GW in many ways.

It is a game product that is too similar to an existing product and can therefore cut into profits of another. So if they were to fund more development into 30k they would lose out on expanding 40k as both games deal with a relatively similar level of gameplay(larger sci-fi battles). They don't have to deal with this regarding Age of Sigmar as AoS has such a wildly dissimilar theme(sci-fi vs fantasy). Same goes with all of their new games that are all targeting very specific userbases and rarely - if ever - overlap with each other unless you are one of those GW Whales(you have enough disposal income to buy everything). The largest exception there is Kill Team, but even that can serve as a soft stepping point into the larger 40k universe.

In short, GW is probably a little bit afraid of having one game cannibalizing the userbase of another game that is too similar.

Disclaimer: Despite the differences between 7th and 8th rulesets, the games have very similar themes, rule cores, and so on. If you were to take a new player and tell them: This is 40k and has a lot of stuff, and this is 30k that also has a lot of the same stuff, but different. That player wouldn't really see much difference. Show them 40k and AoS and they would be seeing sci-fi and fantasy. I know it is probably heresy to say that 40k and 30k are relatively similar, but on larger business scale they are.

Not interested in 40k anymore, don't know really why, just lost interest for constant power creep, meta lists etc. I still collect HH, slowly, thanks to 8th rules, even though there is still some stuff that is really effective pts wise, and that just, why would I take this ever(no difference to 7.5)?

Yeah, I can see what Eldarsif says as a problem for GW. When Forge World started its Horus Heresy line, it drew heavily from the model range created for 40k (e.g. Mk IV armor) and there was a lot of crossover. You could buy Terminators or Rhinos with Forge World bits and use them in 40k. GW still made money on the underlying plastic vehicles, and the profit on FW’s resin infantry probably wasn’t bad either (I have no idea how it compares to that of a plastic Tactical Marine box).

You can still use them in both games, but 40k is moving towards taller marines with completely new unit types and vehicles. The games won’t look like they’re in the same scale. At that point, is there any overlap between the two games?

Will GW think of every Mk III or Mk IV purchase as a lost Primaris Marine sale? The profit margin might be higher with the latter. And how is Forge World going to sell us a Rhino or Predator when GW replaces those with Repulsor variants? We’ll need Outriders that aren’t based on Scout Bikes, and Storm Eagles not based on the Stormraven. I’m very curious how that’ll be handled.

Carlisimo wrote:
Yeah, I can see what Eldarsif says as a problem for GW. When Forge World started its Horus Heresy line, it drew heavily from the model range created for 40k (e.g. Mk IV armor) and there was a lot of crossover. You could buy Terminators or Rhinos with Forge World bits and use them in 40k. GW still made money on the underlying plastic vehicles, and the profit on FW’s resin infantry probably wasn’t bad either (I have no idea how it compares to that of a plastic Tactical Marine box).

You can still use them in both games, but 40k is moving towards taller marines with completely new unit types and vehicles. The games won’t look like they’re in the same scale. At that point, is there any overlap between the two games?

Will GW think of every Mk III or Mk IV purchase as a lost Primaris Marine sale? The profit margin might be higher with the latter. And how is Forge World going to sell us a Rhino or Predator when GW replaces those with Repulsor variants? We’ll need Outriders that aren’t based on Scout Bikes, and Storm Eagles not based on the Stormraven. I’m very curious how that’ll be handled.

GW owns Forgeworld so every Mk III or Mk IV purchase is probably a sale gained in their books. Now you'll have to buy the marine twice!

Depends , there is such a thing as oversaturating your market, productr fatigue , and profit margins on products.

The money people also really don't want too similar products competing for the same userbase. Not every consumer is a whale that buys everything GW makes and most people pick and choose what they'll go for and exclude other stuff. Offering a new player 30k and 40k to pick from would not increase sales very much as they probably wouldn't identify any difference in the two products.

I also think this is the reason we are seeing Horus Heresy used for games like Adeptus Titanicus. AT is a unique game on its own and differentiates enough from the core games that it could be its own thing.

Sounds like bloodbowl the last 2 decades, until GW brought it back last year. HH will be the same :(

You mean with a thriving organised play community and plenty of models available? That deserves a , not a :(

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
You mean with a thriving organised play community and plenty of models available? That deserves a , not a :(

I think he means a complete lack of official support when it comes to new rules and model releases. Also, a thriving community heavily depends on where you're located. Maybe in the UK it had a healthy community, but the entire Eastern half of the US was pretty empty when it came to Blood Bowl play groups until GW decided to start officially supporting it again. Just because you can find a game of something in gaming clubs in the UK doesn't mean it's popular. Blood Bowl over here was about as popular as college football is over there.

Horus heresy is on life support it seems, Either GW doesn't want competition within itself, or they don't see much point to forgeworld having its own ruleset / separate game.

 Toofast wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
You mean with a thriving organised play community and plenty of models available? That deserves a , not a :(

I think he means a complete lack of official support when it comes to new rules and model releases. Also, a thriving community heavily depends on where you're located. Maybe in the UK it had a healthy community, but the entire Eastern half of the US was pretty empty when it came to Blood Bowl play groups until GW decided to start officially supporting it again. Just because you can find a game of something in gaming clubs in the UK doesn't mean it's popular. Blood Bowl over here was about as popular as college football is over there.

I keep hearing about this "lack of support with rules and model releases" but it's been less then a year since its official ruleset was released, and it's had an FAQ in that time frame as well, and there has been a ton of models released in that year as well, to include a fair number in the last few months. And we're getting rules for 3 more armies in the next couple of months.

It's like people are being purposefully ignorant of the status of the game because they want it to fail so bad.

It's more they don't pay attention because it's not been as in your face as it was in the run-up to and follow on from Inferno. 2018 was a 'quiet' year for the Heresy with fewer major releases and those releases were spaced out.

2019 I expect to have a significant uptick in support and releases from FW.

If they dropped 30k (gradually or not), it wouldnt be a new thing. imo, they did that to fantasy - then later you had people justify the need for AoS because of the lack of sales and creating a self-fulfilling prophecy .

bogalubov wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Fajita Fan wrote:
And knowing GW they'll find all kinds of way to monetize a squad building or rules app. I rather enjoy doing lists at work in Excel because looks an awful lot like work. I do like codices on my iPad though, it's easy to take my whole library and I've lost a couple of my codices over the years when other players have walked off with them.

GW being GW likely would make rules etc subscribe model so a) when you stop paying you lose access to rules b) when GW decides to change rules/edition players have no choice but to switch. Your group prefers old? Well good luck. All rules and gaming aids only shows new. Tough luck.

I'm solidly on the app train. The app being a subscription service (like the AoS currently is) gives GW consistent financials instead of a wax and wane of codex sales. Investors love consistent financials so I think that's a better way to go for GW.

For me it's a win personally, because after more than a decade in the hobby my house is littered with useless books and codexes. At this point in my life I would like to simplify things and stop accumulating clutter. Yes, I do enjoy the feel of a physical book, but that benefit is far outweighed by the anxiety of having all this junk in my house. Plus, whenever they choose to update rules I need to pay more money to get that new book. Or if there's an FAQ or rules update now I need to remember that those exist and either print it or store the file on my phone/tablet.

I understand that other people have other concerns and I'm not the only type of gamer that exists so my thoughts don't apply to everyone. However, moving to an app based platform is a win for GW, has benefits of seamless updates and the future generation of gamers might not even know how to use a book and they will be future customers.

I just wanted to pop in and agree with what you said about the AoS app. I'm buying into AoS currently, and was nervous about the app. I was shocked beyond belief when I saw that it was a 99 cent per month service, as I was expecting something along the order of 10USD or higher. If they were to go this rout for all of their games, perhaps even combining everything into one app, I would pay 9.99 per month or more for that.

An app would be fantastic. Lore and stories could be one book that doesn't have to be updated every generation/edition, and all rules would go through the app.

 djones520 wrote:

 Toofast wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
You mean with a thriving organised play community and plenty of models available? That deserves a , not a :(

I think he means a complete lack of official support when it comes to new rules and model releases. Also, a thriving community heavily depends on where you're located. Maybe in the UK it had a healthy community, but the entire Eastern half of the US was pretty empty when it came to Blood Bowl play groups until GW decided to start officially supporting it again. Just because you can find a game of something in gaming clubs in the UK doesn't mean it's popular. Blood Bowl over here was about as popular as college football is over there.

I keep hearing about this "lack of support with rules and model releases" but it's been less then a year since its official ruleset was released, and it's had an FAQ in that time frame as well, and there has been a ton of models released in that year as well, to include a fair number in the last few months. And we're getting rules for 3 more armies in the next couple of months.

It's like people are being purposefully ignorant of the status of the game because they want it to fail so bad.

You hit it right on the nose there.
Some people have an emotional need to watch something fail purely due to spite and are so blinded by that spite that they cant look at the situation for what it is.
Most of the time tho people like that have emotional issues that are far bigger than just the goings on of this hobby, and trying to have a rational discussion with them is like talking to a brick wall that insists on using circular reasoning and defines supposition as fact.

As a relatively new player to Horus Heresy (about two years), I would love to see it get more support, or at the very least not slowly killed off over time as more kits are discontinued than added. The breakneck pace of releases from GamesWorkshop over the past year has had very little for Horus Heresy. So I have been excited to see a few really nice, new models being released lately. Hopefully a sign of continued support. I don't need to see constant newness (as I am a slow painter anyway!) but I don't like the feeling that kits I have my eye on will disappear overnight with hardly a "last chance to buy" in some cases.

But I also think this screen shot from Warhammer Community says a lot about where GamesWorkshop ranks Horus Heresy. Clearly, it is no more than a third-tier specialist game as it does not even rank as highly as BloodBowl to show up when you hover over the link for "Our Games".




I would be happy if they keep Heresy as a niche game (it doesn't need to be a flagship product), but I just hope they continue to support it and keep it alive and kicking. The models are gorgeous, the setting is epic and intensely interesting. The rules are secondary to me since my brother and I just play campaigns together.

These may be dark days, but we stand resolute against all odds.

Some people have an emotional need to watch something fail purely due to spite and are so blinded by that spite that they cant look at the situation for what it is.

 Toofast wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
If you want to get rid of clutter just throw away the books then. Same effect as it would be in app. You paid for what you no longer can use.

And is paying every month better than paying only when they choose to update rules? Update you might not even WANT to use but now have no choice as you would not even have an option to use old rules? HH case rather than stay playing 7th ed rules you prefer you would be forced to either quit completely or switch to 8th ed...

You can't throw away the books and have access to them. That's what an app would solve. Yes, paying monthly is better because if you take a break from the game, when you come back you just have to start your sub up again rather than spending a bunch of money on the new book you need. People playing 7th don't have to quit completely, if their group prefers 7th they will keep playing 7th. The people who prefer 8th will move over to that. Right now, there is no option for people who prefer 8th other than selling their 30k army and just playing 40k, which is the option I chose along with several of my friends. 7th was the absolute worst edition I've played and I've been playing since the 90s. Why they would go out of their way to stay in that ruleset is beyond me.

You wouldn't have access to the app either if GW goes for subscribe model like I described...GW updates rules to new edition? There went your old edition rules. Poof. No more access to your rules. If GW would be real evil they would make game so that it literally requires app somewhere so even if you had print screened everything you STILL wouldn't be able to play.

App and subscribtion=you don't pay for rules. You pay for access to them. Access that lasts as only as you pay and they give them to you. You don't have permanent access to them and if GW wants they can do physical equilavent of literally coming to your home and taking every book you had with you.

So those who preferred 7th ed wouldn't HAVE option to play the vastly superior 7th ed over the broken illogical junk that the 8th ed is. They wake up and their app has rules for 8th ed. Not 7th. "I paid for them!" you cry. No. You paid access to rules GW provides which they then switched to 8th ed.

So yes throwing away books would be equilavent to subscribtion model I described(you DID read what I wrote in the first place right? You didn't just write what you want without even checking if you are even replying to what I said over what you think I said? Seeing I specifically was talking about subscribtion model where you have access only to newest rules GW writes...). You lose access to previous rules. Period. End of story. No more playing with old rules. You don't have option. You either quit paying and playing or switch to new.

tneva82 wrote:
You wouldn't have access to the app either if GW goes for subscribe model like I described...GW updates rules to new edition? There went your old edition rules. Poof. No more access to your rules. If GW would be real evil they would make game so that it literally requires app somewhere so even if you had print screened everything you STILL wouldn't be able to play.

App and subscribtion=you don't pay for rules. You pay for access to them. Access that lasts as only as you pay and they give them to you. You don't have permanent access to them and if GW wants they can do physical equilavent of literally coming to your home and taking every book you had with you.

So those who preferred 7th ed wouldn't HAVE option to play the vastly superior 7th ed over the broken illogical junk that the 8th ed is. They wake up and their app has rules for 8th ed. Not 7th. "I paid for them!" you cry. No. You paid access to rules GW provides which they then switched to 8th ed.

So yes throwing away books would be equilavent to subscribtion model I described(you DID read what I wrote in the first place right? You didn't just write what you want without even checking if you are even replying to what I said over what you think I said? Seeing I specifically was talking about subscribtion model where you have access only to newest rules GW writes...). You lose access to previous rules. Period. End of story. No more playing with old rules. You don't have option. You either quit paying and playing or switch to new.

I see the old rulebooks as garbage that's cluttering my house so the app upgrading to current rules is completely fine with me. I think someone mentioned this above, but it would be best if they split codexes into two separate parts. Physical campaign/background books and then a rules app. So you can hold on to stuff that most people might actually want to read again and then update the rules to be current. For those who are nostalgic for the old rules they can even print them and sell them on demand. Why limit another revenue stream.

bogalubov wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
You wouldn't have access to the app either if GW goes for subscribe model like I described...GW updates rules to new edition? There went your old edition rules. Poof. No more access to your rules. If GW would be real evil they would make game so that it literally requires app somewhere so even if you had print screened everything you STILL wouldn't be able to play.

App and subscribtion=you don't pay for rules. You pay for access to them. Access that lasts as only as you pay and they give them to you. You don't have permanent access to them and if GW wants they can do physical equilavent of literally coming to your home and taking every book you had with you.

So those who preferred 7th ed wouldn't HAVE option to play the vastly superior 7th ed over the broken illogical junk that the 8th ed is. They wake up and their app has rules for 8th ed. Not 7th. "I paid for them!" you cry. No. You paid access to rules GW provides which they then switched to 8th ed.

So yes throwing away books would be equilavent to subscribtion model I described(you DID read what I wrote in the first place right? You didn't just write what you want without even checking if you are even replying to what I said over what you think I said? Seeing I specifically was talking about subscribtion model where you have access only to newest rules GW writes...). You lose access to previous rules. Period. End of story. No more playing with old rules. You don't have option. You either quit paying and playing or switch to new.

.

I see the old rulebooks as garbage that's cluttering my house so the app upgrading to current rules is completely fine with me. I think someone mentioned this above, but it would be best if they split codexes into two separate parts. Physical campaign/background books and then a rules app. So you can hold on to stuff that most people might actually want to read again and then update the rules to be current. For those who are nostalgic for the old rules they can even print them and sell them on demand. Why limit another revenue stream.

Imagine the HH community being told their big black books are completely invalid (except the fluff).
Yea they may have had updates, but an entirely new rule set is a different matter.
That would be a nail in the coffin.

I understand people like to cure their boredom with new shiny things, but sometimes its more sane to just be okay with things the way they are. It might actually draw more lasting interest. Imagine a solid warhammer system that doesn't change for decades - other than adding maybe some new armies/campaigns.

I think the whole living rules, meaning new editions every few years, is gimmicky/convoluted.