What I said was that I don't want 'female' soldiers that are just Teela's head on He-Man's body.
Well the thing with war is, that the male body type is the better suited one for it. So a peak female soldier would be practicly impossible to recognise from a male one.
While I disagree that the current Cadian plastics wouldn't look like convincing females with a mere headswap (in my personal experience, they've looked just fine), I disagree that "the male body type is best suited". A female soldier is indistinguishable not because they "look more like a man", but because they are wearing the same thick, body covering armour.
Body type has nothing to do with this.
Not represented well in models though. That's what this thread is about, not the lore.
Would the models sell enough to make it worth GW time? They seem to be sure, after feed back, that SoB will. Other stuff seems questionable. I mean we could technicly assume that GW is stupid, and doesn't want to make more money and that is why they are not adding female models to their IG line. But I don't think it is the case.
If the models were mixed into an existing kit, or kits? Yes, they would, because if you wanted Cadians, you'd need to buy a pack of them, which would happen to have female heads on.
I have no doubts that if something like the Chapter upgrade packs sell (which they do), then an upgrade pack with female heads would too. Even if we assume that 10% of Guard players buy it, that's probably the same amount of people who buy Catachans, and they still stock them.
So yes, when they update the kits, it would make absolute sense for them to add female parts.
In terms of “representation,” what needs to be represented is the setting.
Why does it need to be represented? Most regiments seem to be made out of males. The cadians were recruiting everyone, but cadia blew up. There also don't seem to be many examples of IG regiments that have mixed gender troopers in the same units. There are probablly more female only regiments in fluff then regular mixed ones, after cadia blew up.
Because most regiments are mixed gender? Cadia wasn't just the most popular regiment IRL, but were also the "model army" for most of the IOM in-universe - including their mixed gender recruitment.
Using secondary resources, such as Only War (by FFG), we see that the majority of regiments are mixed. Sure, it's secondary, but I'm pretty sure that it's the only source we have on any kind of exact estimates, and it was approved by GW at the time.
What's your evidence that most regiments are mono-gender, or that Cadians were one of the few to have mixed regiments?
In your opinion, which appears to be just as misogynistic as Clockwork's is. You're still just arguing that no human female minis are better than 'man-face' human female minis.
GW has produced hundreds of terrible sculpts and not one of them has ever, in my knowledge, been used to suggest that an entire range should not exist, or that they should just quit. Except now Sisters, the only exclusively female human faction, are accused of 'man-face' and killing GW's interest in sculpting human women.
Stripped to its core, you are arguing that women should be aesthetically pleasing to you or not exist. But no, there's no misogyny in that statement.
Excommunicatus wrote: You need to stop making your definition of misogyny happen, Karol. Use the one in the dictionary.
mi·sog·y·ny
/məˈsäjənē/Submit
noun
dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women.
Perhaps you need to stop making your own arguments to dispel, and use the ones that were actually said.
That's absolutely not at any point what I'm saying, as I personally want more female models, and I actually had to look up in the lore if my Genestealer Cults didn't infect women or something, based off their model line. I'm just saying that "not being something we can sculpt very well, our business is built around high quality sculpts, and this may not be a good business decision" is not an equivalent to "we dislike and hold contempt for women".
You are incredibly reactionary, and you need to stop calling everything you disagree with "misogyny". It's pretty darn insulting, and a mod literally just said not to, you are being beyond toxic at this point and aren't carrying an argument, just arguing strawman and declaring others as being of lower moral character.
Next, there’s a lot of political flavored commentary in this thread. That’s inevitable. Please note that while Dakka Dakka has a ban on off-topic political discussion, the ban does not include the political dimensions of on-topic content, i.e., miniatures gaming. All the same, please remember that Rule Number One is Be Polite. Calling each other SJWs, NPCs, misogynists, racists, etc is not acceptable (not that these words themselves are banned).
Finally, post in this thread at your own risk. If you ignore these points going forward, you stand a good chance of having your account suspended.
Thanks!
At no point have I alleged that any person is a misogynist. GIven your demonstrated comprehension issues, I can see how you might be confused between calling an opinion misogynistic and a person misogynistic, but that's your problem not mine.
Again, GW has produced hundreds of terrible sculpts. None of them were ever used as justification to stop an aspect of modelling. But for some reason, that applies to Sisters? Why? Why are terrible masculine sculpts ok, but supposedly ugly female sculpts are a reason to stop production and not really try again?
SHUPPET wrote: That's absolutely not at any point what I'm saying, as I personally want more female models, and I actually had to look up in the lore if my Genestealer Cults didn't infect women or something, based off their model line.
I actually thought that was really weird, too. Given the themes of the army, if anything it should be the opposite case with the leader Genestealer being called a Matriarch and a majority of female models in the line.
At no point have I alleged that any person is a misogynist. GIven your demonstrated comprehension issues, I can see how you might be confused between calling an opinion misogynistic and a person misogynistic, but that's your problem not mine.
And while I may feel your opinions display the critical thinking equivalent to of a bowl of porridge, expressing that, or that every opinion that disagrees with you is made in dislike or contempt of women, is not how we rationally debate a topic, OR FOLLOW RULE #1, now is it?
Again, GW has produced hundreds of terrible sculpts. None of them were ever used as justification to stop an aspect of modelling. But for some reason, that applies to Sisters? Why? Why are terrible masculine sculpts ok, but supposedly ugly female sculpts are a reason to stop production and not really try again?
How do you know which models they chose to stop producing based on difficulty? Plenty of things that were modeled terribly ARE STILL STUCK WITH THOSE TERRIBLE MODELS, and we don't have access to information on scrapped projects. Female faces were consistently done poorly and they may just feel it's not something. Why are you disingenuously and deliberately acting like I'm arguing against getting new improved sculpts here? I literally just said I'd love more female models. At no point did either I, nor Clockwork say anything against that (in fact he ALSO said it would just be a matter of time to fix this) just that there is an explanation for the current range that isn't "we hate women!". and that it's much more likely to be "we like money, and know where our talents lie!". For some who is taking shots at others comprehension, maybe you should let the outrage simmer down a little for long enough to read what you are actually getting so worked up about.
I've called two opinions misogynist in a thread of over 300 responses, not 'everyone'. In reality, only one opinion since yours is prima facie identical to Clockwork's and you both refuse to clarify.
Raise your game.
I don't know what considerations go into what gets sculpted and what doesn't. However, I don't need to because I am not the person making naked assertions about that process in a transparent attempt to bolster a nakedly illogical, demonstrably false, opinion.
SHUPPET wrote: That's absolutely not at any point what I'm saying, as I personally want more female models, and I actually had to look up in the lore if my Genestealer Cults didn't infect women or something, based off their model line.
I actually thought that was really weird, too. Given the themes of the army, if anything it should be the opposite case with the leader Genestealer being called a Matriarch and a majority of female models in the line.
Right? I don't know the decision behind Patriarch / Matriarch decision (Purestrain Stealers are genderless and reproduce by implanting their genetic material into a host species like a virus, creating genestealer hybrids), but I have actually put some thought into some aspects of this decision while reading up, and realising that in the lore, on many industrial worlds, the men are simply the ones who work in the mining / industry roles, and being that the entire GSC range seems to just reflect the "infected miners" aspect of GSC lore, the decision makes a little more sense. Also, the infection makes them sort of androgynous, affecting their body and causing them to be bald etc so this would be an extra difficult sculpt to capture accurately, and being that 2/3's of the range wears masks or helmets or disguises themselves in some way, this may even be reflected. There's also accounts of females being deliberately given non-battlefield, gender specific roles in the Cult, including as sex workers to spread the virus, etc. Also, and I think above all, the army's MAIN weapon is reproduction, and it makes sense that women are much more likely to be protected to allow this to happen, as it takes 5 reproductive cycles on average for Purestrains to be born, for this reason alone making the line purely male may make sense for the battlefield. It may be all of these reasons, it may be none, at the very least, it's more understandable then no female Guard. We need models for our honorable Guardswomen like, yesterday!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Excommunicatus wrote: I've called two opinions misogynist in a thread of over 300 responses, not 'everyone'. In reality, only one opinion since yours is prima facie identical to Clockwork's and you both refuse to clarify.
You've had it clarified for you multiple times, you just refuse to listen. That's okay though, because calling his opinion misognystic is easier than reading.
Excommunicatus wrote: I am not the person making naked assertions about that process in a transparent attempt to bolster a nakedly illogical, demonstrably false, opinion.
I actually lol'd. The lack of self-awareness shown here to actually say this line with a straight face after the declarations you made prior
Some of them were. Some of them weren't. You're ok with them, but not female humans. Why?
Why are so many of you so, so keen on drawing a distinction without providing a difference?
-------------------------------------------
Also, FWIW, I was born in Harrogate and lived most of my life near Leeds so I know full well that the weekend does not begin at 3am on a friday morning in the U.K., whoever it was that ttried to sneak that one past.
Excommunicatus wrote: Also, FWIW, I was born in Harrogate and lived most of my life near Leeds so I know full well that the weekend does not begin at 3am on a friday morning in the U.K., whoever it was that ttried to sneak that one past.
Remember, we English invented time, so we get to decide when things start!
Excommunicatus wrote: Without retcons you wouldn't have Tau, Necrons, Custodes, Knights, Flyers, Forge World, Primaris, Grav-Cannons, Baal Predators, Maulerfiends, Forgefiends, Primarchs or any of a whole list of other stuff.
Clearly adding females via retcon is a step too far, though.
See this is a bs argument those were originally additions not full on rewriting software established lore. Adding in female Marines would be like GW going and changing Necrons to a sentient race of pig people instead of killer T1000s. Also it's not step to far it's just unnecessary there are SoB which is a viable equivalent especially once they get a new release.
I don't think female marines would be that bad of an addition. In an age where Cawl is making new, crazy advancements with tech, Fabius is cloning Primarch's, and magical powers being used to imbue other human/astartes warriors with super powers, you'd think the next logical step would be someone focusing on finding a way for the other half of the population to be recruited into power armor to fight for their emperor. If done well, it would be fine, imo.
Even if it were done, Female Space Marines would look LITERALLY the exact same as male ones, by design because that's simply how the human body works.
It actually would be sexist imho if they made Female Marines look in any way feminine.
Dammit, the user alerts mean I have to READ this thread.
SOMEone's gonna get yelled at for giving me soul cancer.
From the brief snippets I've seen, you all need to TONE IT DOWN. These people aren't your enemies. They may never, ever agree with you. As far as I've seen, shouting at someone over the internet has a 0% chance of winning them over.
Lorek wrote: Dammit, the user alerts mean I have to READ this thread.
SOMEone's gonna get yelled at for giving me soul cancer.
From the brief snippets I've seen, you all need to TONE IT DOWN. These people aren't your enemies. They may never, ever agree with you. As far as I've seen, shouting at someone over the internet has a 0% chance of winning them over.
Man, you are going to love reading this thread. It devolved real fast, like, immediately after the official warnerating.
I particularly enjoyed watching needless accusations get all blown out of proportion. I think if I read the word misogyny or its derivatives one more time I might just agree with someone. If only it could be repeated like, 20 more times I bet the internet would be a better place.
Excommunicatus, you're walking a REALLY fine line about misogyny and your labeling of things. If you use that term again without giving VERY clear and blatant evidence, you're getting dinged for it. You can't expect to use a term like that, even if it's about opinions, and not expect to start a flamestorm. It's a loaded word, we all know it, and it's basically the nuclear option in discussions like this.
As a generalization of this, please DON'T use terms that you know are inflammatory (like misogynist) unless you have SOLID evidence to back it up. It's a nasty word, and not to be used casually (like I'm seeing here).
Also, quite a few people are getting emotionally involved in this discussion, and it's starting to wobble off the rails. I'm not seeing much that DIRECTLY relates to the poll, which is indeed about GW releasing more female miniatures. Instead, I see bickering, haranguing, and squabbling for the most part.
If you want a baseline for female human IG-equivalent miniatures, check out Victoria Lamb's miniatures. No, they're not GW, but they are actual miniatures you can use as an example.
txaggieof08 wrote: From a long time female player, do not start modifying lore to release females into units that have always been male.
There are places, like guard, where female have been in the lore from early on, but do not retcon lore for the purpose.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. There are so many existing gaps that should be filled - where there should be female models to accurately represent the lore we already have ... and yet we don’t have the figures. That’s where the work needs to be done. People have mentioned quite a few specific examples, already. And choosing a female Rogue Trader was brilliant. Of course, there are plenty of male rogue Traders but making a figure of a female one, to me, makes this particular presentation of the concept more ... not sure what the right word is. Compelling? GW is demonstrably on the right track.
Regarding genestealers, I think “Patriarch” makes sense because, following the Alien (1978) concept, the human host is the receptacle being “impregnated.”
That said, some female GCultists would be great, demonstrating how the xenos blight infects human society at large. I’d like to see for example a female Imperial noble who is a GCultist.
As stated earlier, the silver lining of the waning multipose era is that GW can put female sculpts on the sprue since there is less and less interchangeability of parts generally.
Arachnofiend wrote: Given the themes of the army, if anything it should be the opposite case with the leader Genestealer being called a Matriarch and a majority of female models in the line.
As a rule of thumb the top tyranid positions are female (norn queen, dominatrix, etc) while the lesser command positions have masculine terms (patriarch, lord) - so the term matriarch would be for a larger and more powerful organism like a super-swarmlord rather than a drone position.
The cultists and hybrids should be mixed, but then again when you are a bald, heavily mutated physical labourer wearing heavy armour... who is to say they aren't already.
Female guard, knights, admech all exist in the fluff. The only ones that need new models to be represented are guard. And their minis need updating too. Simple job. That’s from a fluff and sales perspective no harm done.
It doesn’t change the problem in the community.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Age of Sigmar manages this much better because it isn’t bogged down in years of stagnant fluff written in a more male orientated time. They manage there to have strong female leads without overt sexualisation and still produce classic fantasy and horror style female tropes. The mix is great. If the 40k fans who shout about how men are stronger so make better soldiers and all this would let GW get on with it we could have female models in all the ranges that need them and classic things like SoB in harmony and the hobby would only be better for it.
The argument that GW just don't have people who can sculpt women strikes me as overall weird. Like, what, are they bad sculptors? Does GW hire only people who are incapable of depicting half of the species? There's a lot of art that seems to contradict that notion. Why would a woman be more difficult to sculpt than a man? Unless you had preconceived notions of what a "woman" was that clashed with the other concepts you wanted to imbue a model with...
And do the miniature designers never train? Do they never tackle new things?
JohnHwangDD wrote: Getting away from the SJW and Femarine crap that Manchu specifically said not to do, what about "cultural" stuff?
For example, GW once did a range of Pygmies:
It's been a while, but is that what people are hoping for?
... I'm pretty sure people want Tallarns or things based on historical and mythical China, not the revival of racist charicatures. WHFB mentioned Cathay and Araby, and Warmaster even had an army for the latter, but they never really showed up. It wouldn't have been hard to hire some decent history nerds, figure out what the Empire equivalent would have been and what you wanted the army lists to do.
You could easily have put in human tribes living in the shadow of the Lizardmen, the peoples of the eastern steppes, Cathay as a great power, Ind to get into what was up with their gods apparently being terrifying to the followers of Chaos, the kingdoms of Araby and their dealings with the resurgent tomb kings, and that's just the obvious stuff for WHFB. With AoS they can change the scope as they pelase.
Hi all, the Moderators would appreciate it greatly if this thread could be a discussion of the original topic, and not become a fighting ground for people to argue with each other about whether they are misogynists or not.
I really don't understand how you can make "cultural" models without resorting to ridiculous stereotypes. Most human bone structure is pretty much the same, I'd rather not have caricatures of RL earth races and ethnicities in a miniature game.
DudleyGrim wrote: I really don't understand how you can make "cultural" models without resorting to ridiculous stereotypes. Most human bone structure is pretty much the same, I'd rather not have caricatures of RL earth races and ethnicities in a miniature game.
read: Thousand Sons, White Scars, Space Wolves, Tallarn, Ultramarines, etc
DudleyGrim wrote: I really don't understand how you can make "cultural" models without resorting to ridiculous stereotypes. Most human bone structure is pretty much the same, I'd rather not have caricatures of RL earth races and ethnicities in a miniature game.
read: Thousand Sons, White Scars, Space Wolves, Tallarn, Ultramarines, etc
See also: Tallarn Desert Raiders, Valhallan Ice Warriors, Vostroyan Firstborn, Tanith first and only, and other such regiments based around more militaristic aspects of 1800+ armies.
Rosebuddy wrote: The argument that GW just don't have people who can sculpt women strikes me as overall weird. Like, what, are they bad sculptors? Does GW hire only people who are incapable of depicting half of the species? There's a lot of art that seems to contradict that notion. Why would a woman be more difficult to sculpt than a man? Unless you had preconceived notions of what a "woman" was that clashed with the other concepts you wanted to imbue a model with...
To be fair, GW often struggles to sculpt men too. A lot of their miniatures only look like men because we have a default assumption that a vaguely face-shaped blob of screaming on a body with military gear is probably a man.
DudleyGrim wrote: I really don't understand how you can make "cultural" models without resorting to ridiculous stereotypes. Most human bone structure is pretty much the same, I'd rather not have caricatures of RL earth races and ethnicities in a miniature game.
That’s just not true. As in it’s wrong. Bone structure varies a great deal.
DudleyGrim wrote: I really don't understand how you can make "cultural" models without resorting to ridiculous stereotypes. Most human bone structure is pretty much the same, I'd rather not have caricatures of RL earth races and ethnicities in a miniature game.
That’s just not true. As in it’s wrong. Bone structure varies a great deal.
Same as lenght of muscles and ligments attachment to the bones. Fat storage and rib cages are differnt as is the pelvis section. In fact if human females pelvis were 1cm wider they wouldn't be able to run.
DudleyGrim wrote: I really don't understand how you can make "cultural" models without resorting to ridiculous stereotypes. Most human bone structure is pretty much the same, I'd rather not have caricatures of RL earth races and ethnicities in a miniature game.
That’s just not true. As in it’s wrong. Bone structure varies a great deal.
Same as lenght of muscles and ligments attachment to the bones. Fat storage and rib cages are differnt as is the pelvis section. In fact if human females pelvis were 1cm wider they wouldn't be able to run.
That is some glorious r/badwomensanatomy right there.
I know it's somewhat off topic, but I have to respond, because that last statement is just beyond hilarious. Just re-read it, and say aloud what you typed there, while keeping in mind that we live on a planet where there exists simultaneously women who are under 5' tall and women who are over 6' tall.
Do you really, REALLY think there are not women whose pelvic bones are over 1cm wider than other womens' pelvic bones who can run just fine?
Rosebuddy wrote: The argument that GW just don't have people who can sculpt women strikes me as overall weird. Like, what, are they bad sculptors? Does GW hire only people who are incapable of depicting half of the species? There's a lot of art that seems to contradict that notion. Why would a woman be more difficult to sculpt than a man? Unless you had preconceived notions of what a "woman" was that clashed with the other concepts you wanted to imbue a model with...
To be fair, GW often struggles to sculpt men too. A lot of their miniatures only look like men because we have a default assumption that a vaguely face-shaped blob of screaming on a body with military gear is probably a man.
Yikes, that's a mean burn on GW sculpts of humans, but actually fairly true. The Vanguard and Ranger Skitarii models look more human to my eyes than Cadians or Scions. As for more gender representation, the guards really need an update so that we can make a roughly 50/50 ratio of men and women in a guard squad (or Scion for that matter). Eldars and Dark Eldars could also use some more female models in supplement to their current ones. It could easily be done by updating old kits and adding torso and heads appropriate for women (and by torso I don't necessarily mean the infamous boob plate, a slightly more slender one would be just fine and even better in my opinion). As for model from other cultures, That's mostly something that can be done via a good paint job.
DudleyGrim wrote: I really don't understand how you can make "cultural" models without resorting to ridiculous stereotypes. Most human bone structure is pretty much the same, I'd rather not have caricatures of RL earth races and ethnicities in a miniature game.
This is basically spot on honestly. Miniatures are very small, and in order to have any personality they frequently need to be exaggerated. This is why models are doing over the top poses to stand out, and also why "dynamic" poses are a growing trend- at least from Games Workshop in the Age of Sigmar line, and in other lines such as Wyrd Miniatures Malifaux line.
This is inherently a problem with a "cultural" model, because in order to be identifiable as "cultural" the model needs to be exaggerated, and a hugely exaggerated cultural model has a high risk of coming off as very very racist. For a very good example, Warlord Miniatures made a huge cultural misstep when they first released the their IJA miniatures. In order to make the models stand out and look distinctly Japanese they ended up famously giving them really big teeth and making them look absolutely ridiculous. There was a big outcry after this, and people noted that they gave their Wehrmacht miniatures respect and didn't caricature them, and the USMC or Soviet models were treated with respect as well. They took a lot of flack for that and eventually redid the entire line.
It is possible to not have horribly racist cultural miniatures. For instance, i don't think there is any outcry over Wyrd Miniatures' Ten Thunders (aka Steampunk Chinese Mafia), and there is no outcry over Wyrd's arguably offensive but also hilarious hillbilly caricature Gremlins. But Malifaux is such a conglomeration of styles nothing actually looks out of place there. 40K by contrast needs to tread much lighter in establishing different races.
Regarding genestealers, I think “Patriarch” makes sense because, following the Alien (1978) concept, the human host is the receptacle being “impregnated.”
That said, some female GCultists would be great, demonstrating how the xenos blight infects human society at large. I’d like to see for example a female Imperial noble who is a GCultist.
I think there is an unfortunate implication that infected women (or women mating with infected men), are kept more or less perpetually pregnant to produce a large hybrid population. It isn't like the genestealers would care about the health of their populations.
Part of this is a consequence of stuffing genestealers under tyranids. If they were independent aliens trying to establish a power base of their own, it could be more nuanced, but the 'call the hive fleet, get harvested' cycle makes it moot. They want a larger compliant population (partly to not resist and partly to turn on the host population) and that's it.
I'm also not convinced GW could do a good job on female hybrids without the models looking fairly ridiculous.
Virtually every part of the Imperium is gender blind: female models should exisist (as they do in the offical background) for ALL except:
Space Marines and maybe Custodes - same as Males should be present in all except Adepta Soroitas
Chapter Serfs (if they ever do them) can be female (not aspiriants)
Every other Imperial and Chaos model range/faction should have some females. Same with the Necrons, Tau and the Eldar.
Genstealer Hybrids/Cultists are also poorly done in this respect and should have some females.
Don't really agree on necrons. They should have the dial firmly set on 'gender is irrelevant.'
It simply isn't an issue for machines with vague or no memories of flesh.
Virtually every part of the Imperium is gender blind: female models should exisist (as they do in the offical background) for ALL except:
Space Marines and maybe Custodes - same as Males should be present in all except Adepta Soroitas
Chapter Serfs (if they ever do them) can be female (not aspiriants)
Every other Imperial and Chaos model range/faction should have some females. Same with the Necrons, Tau and the Eldar.
Genstealer Hybrids/Cultists are also poorly done in this respect and should have some females.
Don't really agree on necrons. They should have the dial firmly set on 'gender is irrelevant.'
It simply isn't an issue for machines with vague or no memories of flesh.
We have female Necron characters already in the lore.
Virtually every part of the Imperium is gender blind: female models should exisist (as they do in the offical background) for ALL except:
Space Marines and maybe Custodes - same as Males should be present in all except Adepta Soroitas
Chapter Serfs (if they ever do them) can be female (not aspiriants)
Every other Imperial and Chaos model range/faction should have some females. Same with the Necrons, Tau and the Eldar.
Genstealer Hybrids/Cultists are also poorly done in this respect and should have some females.
Don't really agree on necrons. They should have the dial firmly set on 'gender is irrelevant.'
It simply isn't an issue for machines with vague or no memories of flesh.
Maybe for Olcrons but not for Newcrons: Egyptian Space Boogaloo.
Galas wrote: Maybe for Olcrons but not for Newcrons: Egyptian Space Boogaloo.
Given that the first female Necrons were mentioned in Xenology back in 2006, they're very much 'Oldcrons'.
Not to mention a Necron Lord cosplayed as an Inquisitior so it's not like they were completely devoid of personalities and intelligence even back then. The old codex was written more from the viewpoint of the Imperium than the Necrons themselves which is likely why they came across lacking personality to us lore wise.
Staples of female models in 40K were Eldar Banshees, SoB, Daemonettes and the occasional female Inquisitor and Assassin. Also please don´t start a flame war about the actual gender of Daemonettes. They might be female or even hermaphrodites. Being daemons they could be both or neither.
Would it be sensible to add more types of females into 40K? Let´s see what cliche categories usually attributed to females in fiction already exist in 40K:
Strong and independent woman Some imperial Inquisitors, some Archons & Succubi.
Pious nuns All SoB units.
Femme Fatales Imperial Assassins.
Amazons Eldar Banshees, some Wyches.
Temptress Daemonettes.
So what is still missing in model form?
Off the top of my head it would be a robot woman (e.g. Terminatrix from Terminator 3) and an alien woman (e.g. Species). So would anybody on this forum like to have a model of an infiltrating, shapeshifting Necron woman consisting of living metal and/or a tyranid creature resembling a human woman?
How about *not* cliches and just represented as part of the general model pool? Less negative tropes (which a lot of those fall into) and more general population, along the lines of eldar guardians.
---
I'm also curious about what 'female necrons' folks are referring to. (Though I still don't see a point of gender on robots).
Though ironically, fluff-wise Ad Mech has had a relatively high proportion of women in novels and such, at least this century. <Titles> of Mars, Mechanicum, even Wrath of Iron, though I don't think the model range reflects it.
Galas wrote: Maybe for Olcrons but not for Newcrons: Egyptian Space Boogaloo.
Given that the first female Necrons were mentioned in Xenology back in 2006, they're very much 'Oldcrons'.
Wait, where? I don't remember that.
The main Necronlord refers to other Necronnobles as "Lords and Ladies of a forgotten age" or something like that. He definitely had personality, and along with some of the Oldcron era short stories, put the lie to the idea that Oldcrons were boring or bland. But the portrayal was apparently too subtle or buried under too much fluff written from the squishy perspective, so now we have Newcrons.
Voss wrote: How about *not* cliches and just represented as part of the general model pool? Less negative tropes (which a lot of those fall into) and more general population, along the lines of eldar guardians.
---
I'm also curious about what 'female necrons' folks are referring to
GW would then have to change a lot of existing kits like Imperial Guard & Eldar Guardians. They can´t be bothered to do this because it is a lot of work and therefore it is easier to just create a new unit and create an elite slot like robot/alien woman as in my example.
BaconCatBug wrote: Saying a Necron is female is like saying a french chair is female, nothing but semantics and entirely pointless.
You do know that every Necron once had a biological body, presumably with a gender, right?
I agree with this. Regardless of what is your idea about the subject IRL, this is an universe with souls. These souls inhabited a specific body (and could or could not recognize themselves with the gender of that body but it was there, and it's another matter entirely).
These creatures have different degrees of memory also, so they are going to have some imprint of what was there before.
BaconCatBug wrote: Saying a Necron is female is like saying a french chair is female, nothing but semantics and entirely pointless.
Furniture is often described as masculine or feminine actually. I would hope you know that.
Female Necrons - its part of their character and personality.
Whilst it might (for some reason) be pointless to you - its certainly not to anyone interested in the characters and their stories.
It also allows subtle (or even less subtle) differences in models - which is no bad thing for Necron Overlords for example.
To assist you part of the freely available extract from Sheld of Baal Devourer.
Spoiler:
Slowly its identity returned, dripping through the feeds that connected it. A name. An existence. A life. A person. Valnyr. Memories joined the name. Identity flowed through her limbs, brought the panic away. Female. It was a she, a female, when such biological distinctions had mattered, during the Time of Flesh, before biotransference. When her race had strode the stars with bodies of meat and bone, before they had been deceived by Mephet’ran, the Messenger, the golden-tongued star god.
A laugh, a shrieking mad cackle, left her, vocalised in the synthetic sound that served her as a voice. The sound reeked of unknowable hunger, of desperation and fear.
Breath. Oxygen. Valnyr was beyond such needs, had been past such requirements for uncounted millennia. She would have smiled, were the skull that served her as features to allow such a gesture.
The panic bled away, the momentary distractions of awakening. Half-remembered preparations and theoretical constructions mumbled in some part of her consciousness.
Trepidation. Concern. These emotions cascaded through her limbs, setting her skull ablaze. The lack of clear memory set her to panic in a way the lack of breath could never equal. The fear of death, the erosion of identity: was this how it began?
Valnyr shuddered. That fear ran through every choice her race had made, the terror of mortality, the grasping jealousy of the overlooked and the passed over. It had led them, in their pride, to war with the old races. It had led them to the abandonment of their very lives.
Twinned emotions had driven her to this place and to this moment: vengeance and the fear of death. The latter, though perhaps not as easily admitted by the proud, was more influential than the former. Frailty and mortality. Easily deceived by the promises of the accursed star gods, these things had driven her entire race into the arms of hubris and made them easy prey to the blandishments of false, vampiric gods. In the end, it had broken their glory. Bereft of the vigour of the living races, Valnyr’s kin had stagnated.
Valnyr mused on what had brought her here, considered the paths her life had taken. Vague memories of mortality, the hint of an identity she no longer coveted, haunted her.
Her sarcophagus shook. Momentum and rushing wind battered the ancient box. Light burned through as the wall facing her became translucent. Quartz-eaten caverns flashed past, marked with lurid green. Metal spread along the caverns, adorning the stone like mould.
Indicators flashed from red to green. A chime beeped. She cancelled it with a thought, banishing the noise. Gravity shifted. Her weight settled on her skeletal feet. Steam whistled and, with subtle pops, the lid to her prison disengaged. Air wafted in, the lifeless sterile atmosphere of the tomb world of Kehlrantyr, tinged with the dust of uncounted ages, utterly empty and devoid of movement. Perfect.
Valnyr, High Cryptek to the Kehlrantyr Dynasts, stepped from the sarcophagus and onto the obsidian floor. She resisted the urge to stretch. Valnyr had gone to the Great Sleep in glory, in a chamber rich with carvings and light. She awoke from that sleep in the same chamber. She emerged from her sarcophagus into ruins.
The walls were broken, caved in by seismic shifting. Neglect, nearly tangible on the still air, ate into everything. Tarnished metal shot through the cold, lifeless rock.
She looked down, her hands outstretched. Her chassis had taken on the form of a skeleton, bones formed from subtly rippling living metal. A strange drift from how she had looked prior to the Great Sleep.
She exhaled, steam vapour leaking from between her clenched jaws. Cracks ran through the chamber, fissures driving deep where unmarred obsidian had once echoed. Quartz crystals sprouted from the fissures, glowing slightly against the darkness. Swooping curves and crossed lines glowed green in the gloom, marking ancient devotions to the c’tan. Name runes whispered prayers, titles and devotions that the necrons had broken and betrayed. Her eyes focused on the symbol of the Void Dragon, the being to whom Valnyr had once bowed.
‘Never again,’ she vocalised. The words hung in the still air, the sound vibrations nearly visible to the vision granted by her metal chassis. Some unknown emotion gnawed at the pit of her being.
Floating on anti-gravitic suspensor fields, an attendant canoptek spyder hovered into Valnyr’s field of vision. Its head, a blocky thing coated with gently blinking lenses, cocked to one side. Curiosity engrams, pre-programmed aeons ago, drove the construct. Sensors winked and scrutinised. Probes extended, tasting the air, examining the electromagnetic fields her skeletal body generated.
She needed to awaken the Dynasts, the overlord and her kin. That was her function. That was her task.
Valnyr started to move, but sensation fired along her neural links. Her mouth cracked open, but no sound emerged. She doubled over, her knees crashing into the stone. Seizures laced through her, jerking her body in random motions. She could hear a buzzing, low and deep.
The sensation passed. Something whispered at the back of her mind. With the moment’s passing, more panic lanced through her. She despised the lack of control, feared any erosion of her authority. Anxiety kicked into life, driving along the synaptic cables that laced through her body. Sensation dimmed. Her eyesight grew dark as the panicked emotion drove away her senses.
In the wake of the fit, a new question emerged.
The Great Sleep had clearly ended, but what had prompted her awakening now? Vague memories of necrons striding across Kehlrantyr came to mind, but there was no time stamp associated with them.
The same unknown feeling flashed through her, bright and malignant. She doubled over, clutching at the unmoving canoptek spyder with fingers of living metal. Her vision blacked out completely. Valnyr lost all control over her motive functions. The canoptek machine compensated, its only reaction a rotation of its head, slow and deliberate.
Sensors stabbed from where its jaws would be. She staggered back. Static emerged from between her jaws, static and panic. Her mind fuzzed, overwhelmed. She felt hunger. Scrabbling, horror mounting, Valnyr surged back to her feet. She could hear a faint buzzing noise.
‘No!’ Valnyr commanded.
Denied its ability to test, to assure purity, the machine drifted away and awaited further orders, looking somehow chastised. Granted a degree of autonomy not usually seen among the constructs of the necrons, the canoptek spyders were responsible for the maintenance of the necrons in their sleeping state. Granted incredibly resilient and robust processors, they had even mimicked independent intelligence.
She appreciated the efforts of the machine in the same way that a person would appreciate an unthinking tool. If there were issues with her awakening, Valnyr would rather test them herself than rely upon the canoptek spyder’s probing senses. Corrections could be made without the constructs’ in-built programs accidentally detecting anomalies and prescribing eradication as the only possible solution. Worry gnawed at her, but she reasoned away the malignant fit as a side effect of the awakening process.
Doors of polished obsidian cracked open. Valnyr left her chamber, canoptek spyder following on her heels, and strode off into the silent tomb world. She entered into a far vaster chamber than the one she had awoken in. On obsidian walls, resplendent in unbroken glory, carved and shaped by the whims of her long-dead people, phalanxes of Kehlrantyr’s most fabled heroes marched.
The skeletal shapes of necrons warred with the lithe alien eldar. Stylised and wrapped in stygian shadows, the carvings were a thing of wonder. Evidence of the pride of Kehlrantyr, its legions of fierce warriors marched across the walls, bound for the glorious wars that served as her history.
Bulwark of the War in Heaven, defender of the dead and doom of the living. This was the reputation Kehlrantyr had earned in ages past. The walls were pristine, kept serviced by scuttling scarabs. They betrayed little of the entropy that had greeted her in her awakening chambers. But the silence was a melancholy thing, thick and turgid in the air. It spoke of ages lost, of time slipped by unremembered and unmourned. The Great Sleep smothered Kehlrantyr.
She stopped in a vast, circular room. Warrior friezes, twelve in all, stared out from the walls. Valnyr walked towards one of the figures and rested her hand on the cheek of the warrior’s skull.
‘Shaudukar,’ she whispered. The name helped dispel the disquiet she felt, driving it to the back of her mind. Then she stepped back, moving towards the centre. The canoptek spyder merely hovered, waiting, probes extended.
An infrasonic buzzing vibrated her metal bones, emanating from the circuitry that laced the walls. Cracks sounded and vapour shot from new fissures. This was no sudden onset of the passage of eons, however. Valnyr adopted the pose of restful relaxation and waited.
Sections of the walls, each marked by a single stylised warrior, pulled away from the rest of the obsidian panels and floated. Slots opened in the floor and the blocks ground into the depths of Kehlrantyr. Vapour hissed with greater intensity. Cruciform shapes resolved from the white steam, and caskets, similar to the one she had recently stepped from, were carved with the images of those who slumbered within.
Her left hand indicated a smile, while her right began the pose of greeting.
Shaudukar’s, fittingly, was the first casket to open. The lychguard was her friend from the time before biotransference. Armoured in thick plates of metal, spine overarched to shelter her head, Shaudukar was a fearsome sight.
Poblaaur’s casket opened next, followed by ten more, until her lychguard surrounded her. They hung, crucified in the sleep of eons. Cables and circuits were attached all over their bodies, snaking through their metal bones. Green lights flickered around them, shining through the steam. The canoptek spyder behind her chattered and broadcast the frequency of awakening.
The bodies jerked in their cradles.
Valnyr awaited their resurrection with excitement. She looked forward to the reunion, eager to hear the voices and thoughts of her guard. Their bonds had been forged in the turbulent days of war against the treacherous and hateful eldar. Those bonds had only been strengthened by conversion as loyalty engrams had rewritten portions of the lychguards’ personality to ensure devotion beyond even that which they had exhibited in their mortality. These lychguard were Valnyr’s wardens, gifts from the Dynasts.
The green lights gave way to arcs of corposant that juddered between the limbs and along the spines of the lychguard.
Emerald balefires flashed in Shaudukar’s eyes, winking with intelligence programs being brought back online. She awoke, the first to do so. Shaudukar, oldest and truest friend of the cryptek called Valnyr. Shaudukar, leader of her lychguard. She fell from the casket. The others followed, some crunching to their knees. Shaudukar’s fist crashed to her chest plate in the old salute. The others echoed her scant seconds later, except for Poblaaur.
Shaudukar said nothing as her sentience resumed control of her body, as she shrugged off the Great Sleep. She reached for her weapons from behind her casket, arming herself with her warscythe and shield. No nonsense and no fuss, as she had been in life. Valnyr felt relief to see her unchanged by sixty million years of dormancy.
Poblaaur kept his eyes dim, facing towards the wall.
‘My mistress,’ Shaudukar said. She stared at her hands.
Valnyr approached her, standing nearly uncomfortably close. For the status-obsessed necrons, where distance often indicated hierarchy and respect, it was an expression of great affection.
‘Shaudukar,’ Valnyr whispered the name. ‘I am glad you are awake.’
Virtually every part of the Imperium is gender blind: female models should exisist (as they do in the offical background) for ALL except:
Space Marines and maybe Custodes - same as Males should be present in all except Adepta Soroitas
Chapter Serfs (if they ever do them) can be female (not aspiriants)
Every other Imperial and Chaos model range/faction should have some females. Same with the Necrons, Tau and the Eldar.
Genstealer Hybrids/Cultists are also poorly done in this respect and should have some females.
I know very little on genestealer life cycle but aren't the hybrid females like baby factories? If that's the case I'll pass
Automatically Appended Next Post: Necrons females would probably just have more feminine robes and more jewels I imagine
yes and no, some - they are also devoted fanatical parents willing to kill or die to save their children.
"Just" feminine robes?
Ah but we have entire Codexes that started with just different names for Chapters. Whilst I would not want to dive into that pit of flanderisation having more variety is surely a good thing - also its not just appearance - its names, styles, quotes, ideas, images.....
Galas wrote: Maybe for Olcrons but not for Newcrons: Egyptian Space Boogaloo.
Given that the first female Necrons were mentioned in Xenology back in 2006, they're very much 'Oldcrons'.
Wait, where? I don't remember that.
The main Necronlord refers to other Necronnobles as "Lords and Ladies of a forgotten age" or something like that. He definitely had personality, and along with some of the Oldcron era short stories, put the lie to the idea that Oldcrons were boring or bland. But the portrayal was apparently too subtle or buried under too much fluff written from the squishy perspective, so now we have Newcrons.
Oh wow, I completely missed that. That's a neat little subtle hint. Though wouldn't that mean that there were necrontyr women, rather than there are necron women? I would think that after Biotransference the C'tan just wiped away those sort of features, as they are no important in a race of machine slaves. The Lord and Ladies line could be referring to how they were organic, but that such aspects are "forgotten" now I'm talking pre-5th ed fluff; might be different now that necrons are just metal people.
Galas wrote: Maybe for Olcrons but not for Newcrons: Egyptian Space Boogaloo.
Given that the first female Necrons were mentioned in Xenology back in 2006, they're very much 'Oldcrons'.
Wait, where? I don't remember that.
The main Necronlord refers to other Necronnobles as "Lords and Ladies of a forgotten age" or something like that. He definitely had personality, and along with some of the Oldcron era short stories, put the lie to the idea that Oldcrons were boring or bland. But the portrayal was apparently too subtle or buried under too much fluff written from the squishy perspective, so now we have Newcrons.
Oh wow, I completely missed that. That's a neat little subtle hint.
Though wouldn't that mean that there were necrontyr women, rather than there are necron women? I would think that after Biotransference the C'tan just wiped away those sort of features, as they are no important in a race of machine slaves. The Lord and Ladies line could be referring to how they were organic, but that such aspects are "forgotten" now
I'm talking pre-5th ed fluff; might be different now that necrons are just metal people.
The Necron Lords did seem to always have personailities - some much more than others. gender is a part of that personality - even if its only a rembembered part.
Galas wrote: Maybe for Olcrons but not for Newcrons: Egyptian Space Boogaloo.
Given that the first female Necrons were mentioned in Xenology back in 2006, they're very much 'Oldcrons'.
Wait, where? I don't remember that.
The main Necronlord refers to other Necronnobles as "Lords and Ladies of a forgotten age" or something like that. He definitely had personality, and along with some of the Oldcron era short stories, put the lie to the idea that Oldcrons were boring or bland. But the portrayal was apparently too subtle or buried under too much fluff written from the squishy perspective, so now we have Newcrons.
Oh wow, I completely missed that. That's a neat little subtle hint.
Though wouldn't that mean that there were necrontyr women, rather than there are necron women? I would think that after Biotransference the C'tan just wiped away those sort of features, as they are no important in a race of machine slaves. The Lord and Ladies line could be referring to how they were organic, but that such aspects are "forgotten" now
I'm talking pre-5th ed fluff; might be different now that necrons are just metal people.
The Necron Lords did seem to always have personailities - some much more than others. gender is a part of that personality - even if its only a rembembered part.
Fair enough. Bit odd for the C'tan to keep that, but maybe they didn't care enough to remove it.
Galas wrote: Maybe for Olcrons but not for Newcrons: Egyptian Space Boogaloo.
Given that the first female Necrons were mentioned in Xenology back in 2006, they're very much 'Oldcrons'.
Wait, where? I don't remember that.
The main Necronlord refers to other Necronnobles as "Lords and Ladies of a forgotten age" or something like that. He definitely had personality, and along with some of the Oldcron era short stories, put the lie to the idea that Oldcrons were boring or bland. But the portrayal was apparently too subtle or buried under too much fluff written from the squishy perspective, so now we have Newcrons.
Oh wow, I completely missed that. That's a neat little subtle hint.
Though wouldn't that mean that there were necrontyr women, rather than there are necron women? I would think that after Biotransference the C'tan just wiped away those sort of features, as they are no important in a race of machine slaves. The Lord and Ladies line could be referring to how they were organic, but that such aspects are "forgotten" now
I'm talking pre-5th ed fluff; might be different now that necrons are just metal people.
The Necron Lords did seem to always have personailities - some much more than others. gender is a part of that personality - even if its only a rembembered part.
Fair enough. Bit odd for the C'tan to keep that, but maybe they didn't care enough to remove it.
Could be part of vengeance or a game, let them feel more what they were....
Galas wrote: Maybe for Olcrons but not for Newcrons: Egyptian Space Boogaloo.
Given that the first female Necrons were mentioned in Xenology back in 2006, they're very much 'Oldcrons'.
Wait, where? I don't remember that.
The main Necronlord refers to other Necronnobles as "Lords and Ladies of a forgotten age" or something like that. He definitely had personality, and along with some of the Oldcron era short stories, put the lie to the idea that Oldcrons were boring or bland. But the portrayal was apparently too subtle or buried under too much fluff written from the squishy perspective, so now we have Newcrons.
Oh wow, I completely missed that. That's a neat little subtle hint.
Though wouldn't that mean that there were necrontyr women, rather than there are necron women? I would think that after Biotransference the C'tan just wiped away those sort of features, as they are no important in a race of machine slaves. The Lord and Ladies line could be referring to how they were organic, but that such aspects are "forgotten" now
I'm talking pre-5th ed fluff; might be different now that necrons are just metal people.
IN the old fluff, the Necrontyr who volunteered for bio transference kept their personalities more or less intact. The Necronlords (and Necronladies) should still remember their fleshly lives enough to remember their genders.
Galas wrote: Maybe for Olcrons but not for Newcrons: Egyptian Space Boogaloo.
Given that the first female Necrons were mentioned in Xenology back in 2006, they're very much 'Oldcrons'.
Wait, where? I don't remember that.
The main Necronlord refers to other Necronnobles as "Lords and Ladies of a forgotten age" or something like that. He definitely had personality, and along with some of the Oldcron era short stories, put the lie to the idea that Oldcrons were boring or bland. But the portrayal was apparently too subtle or buried under too much fluff written from the squishy perspective, so now we have Newcrons.
Oh wow, I completely missed that. That's a neat little subtle hint.
Though wouldn't that mean that there were necrontyr women, rather than there are necron women? I would think that after Biotransference the C'tan just wiped away those sort of features, as they are no important in a race of machine slaves. The Lord and Ladies line could be referring to how they were organic, but that such aspects are "forgotten" now
I'm talking pre-5th ed fluff; might be different now that necrons are just metal people.
IN the old fluff, the Necrontyr who volunteered for bio transference kept their personalities more or less intact. The Necronlords (and Necronladies) should still remember their fleshly lives enough to remember their genders.
Ah but we have entire Codexes that started with just different names for Chapters. Whilst I would not want to dive into that pit of flanderisation having more variety is surely a good thing - also its not just appearance - its names, styles, quotes, ideas, images.....
I was more or less getting at models, naturally I'd expect characters to have some character
I figure more long flowing robes though I don't even know if it's fair to call what Necrons have as robes but still. Looking at a stock Necron overlord, if I wanted to convey a more feminine presence, I don't really know, more ornate "robes", jeweled necklaces, a smaller frame, or more distinct headdresses, and smoother bodies.
That's how I would make them, but weren't their bodies made by the Catan? So unless the Catan cared enough to make dimorphic bodies for every female necrontyr. But at the same time not all the named HQs look overly similar, so bodies mods exist to some extent haha
Either way I support the idea of female Necrons just to satisfy my curiosity
Do we even have a good pic of what the Necrons looked like prior to getting all terminator? I don't recall GW describing them in any detail other than vaguely human shaped and full of cancer.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Do we even have a good pic of what the Necrons looked like prior to getting all terminator? I don't recall GW describing them in any detail other than vaguely human shaped and full of cancer.
Nyet. Not as far as I am aware. Although the shape of the Necrons should give us a idea of what they looked like.
40k is very sparing when it comes to use of children in their setting, they really don't like portraying them as victims. Rarely are they ever mentioned in the lore beyond the word "family of inhabitants" and even that is uncommon.
40k is very sparing when it comes to use of children in their setting, they really don't like portraying them as victims. Rarely are they ever mentioned in the lore beyond the word "family of inhabitants" and even that is uncommon.
Cough cough
Spoiler:
But I agree. Pregnant women and children are as banned from 40k as they are from GTA games. They are a big no no.
40k is very sparing when it comes to use of children in their setting, they really don't like portraying them as victims. Rarely are they ever mentioned in the lore beyond the word "family of inhabitants" and even that is uncommon.
Manchu wrote: I don’t think you should be lumping female figures in with “cultural themed” figures.
As to female models:
First things first, Sisters of Battle need to be completely updated. GW says that’s coming in 2019. So that box will be checked.
Next up, Imperial Guard need to be updated. Ideally, a Guard squad would come with two sprues: one with options for five male figures and one for options for five female figures. Obviously, stuff like special weapons and backpacks would work for either male or female figures.
For everything else, a few female models should be included in kits where appropriate. A couple of good examples are Eldar Guardians and Dark Eldar Wyches. There might be a couple of males in those kits.
So in summary, what’s really missing and should be addressed are Guardswomen. Otherwise, the line is already pretty great.
I tend to aghree, putting female minis out is one thing and I support it, putting "cultural themed" units out though would be a mistake. Space Wolves work because vikings are pretty whiter and we get the joke. putting out a "Zulu Marines" chapter is likely to be seen as racist before it's seen as inclusive.
Manchu wrote: I don’t think you should be lumping female figures in with “cultural themed” figures.
As to female models:
First things first, Sisters of Battle need to be completely updated. GW says that’s coming in 2019. So that box will be checked.
Next up, Imperial Guard need to be updated. Ideally, a Guard squad would come with two sprues: one with options for five male figures and one for options for five female figures. Obviously, stuff like special weapons and backpacks would work for either male or female figures.
For everything else, a few female models should be included in kits where appropriate. A couple of good examples are Eldar Guardians and Dark Eldar Wyches. There might be a couple of males in those kits.
So in summary, what’s really missing and should be addressed are Guardswomen. Otherwise, the line is already pretty great.
I tend to aghree, putting female minis out is one thing and I support it, putting "cultural themed" units out though would be a mistake. Space Wolves work because vikings are pretty whiter and we get the joke. putting out a "Zulu Marines" chapter is likely to be seen as racist before it's seen as inclusive.
Manchu wrote: I don’t think you should be lumping female figures in with “cultural themed” figures.
As to female models:
First things first, Sisters of Battle need to be completely updated. GW says that’s coming in 2019. So that box will be checked.
Next up, Imperial Guard need to be updated. Ideally, a Guard squad would come with two sprues: one with options for five male figures and one for options for five female figures. Obviously, stuff like special weapons and backpacks would work for either male or female figures.
For everything else, a few female models should be included in kits where appropriate. A couple of good examples are Eldar Guardians and Dark Eldar Wyches. There might be a couple of males in those kits.
So in summary, what’s really missing and should be addressed are Guardswomen. Otherwise, the line is already pretty great.
I tend to aghree, putting female minis out is one thing and I support it, putting "cultural themed" units out though would be a mistake. Space Wolves work because vikings are pretty whiter and we get the joke. putting out a "Zulu Marines" chapter is likely to be seen as racist before it's seen as inclusive.
TIL the Celestial Lions don't exist.
you know what I mean BCB could you imagine if they took an African tribal cultural and "Space wolfed" it? yeaaaah no
that said a Japanese inspired chapter could work quite well. make the power swords Katana's, combat knives wakazari's, refer to the chapter master as the shogun, with each company cap[tain being a Dayimo..
BrianDavion wrote: you know what I mean BCB could you imagine if they took an African tribal cultural and "Space wolfed" it? yeaaaah no
that said a Japanese inspired chapter could work quite well. make the power swords Katana's, combat knives wakazari's, refer to the chapter master as the shogun, with each company cap[tain being a Dayimo..
You mean, like they already did with the Pygmies? An actual African tribal culture that they brought into the Warhammer universe!
You mean, like the Tau, with their anime robots and shoulder armor and so on?
SHUPPET wrote: Armies are based off historical culture, i dont think T'au is at all representative of Japanese culture just because they look anime like
African tribalism would make for an awesome faction. Black Panther fused tech and culture really well.
Don't be that reasonable! You'll ruin the low effort bait of JohnHwang using extremely old and clearly racist caricature miniatures that haven't been in sale for 20 years, as if they where exactly the same as quality concepts mixing the setting with proper cultural influences.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Do we even have a good pic of what the Necrons looked like prior to getting all terminator? I don't recall GW describing them in any detail other than vaguely human shaped and full of cancer.
Nyet. Not as far as I am aware. Although the shape of the Necrons should give us a idea of what they looked like.
According to the Oldcron (and best) lore, they're form was chosen by the Nightbringer, as it's the form that would most terrify their foes, since the Eldar, Krork, and other Old One creations were humanoid in shape.
There's never any indication that they're original Necrontyr bodies looked anything like the Necrons.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Please, let's skip "miniatures can't be racist" and stay more on topic.
Let's skip the "these miniatures are going to be racist" comments, that prompted the replies in the first place, which stated that they might not be, if done well. And then in future take the time out to read a conversation properly before chiming in about who is offtopic and who isn't
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Please, let's skip "miniatures can't be racist" and stay more on topic.
Let's skip the "these miniatures are going to be racist" comments, that prompted the replies in the first place, which stated that they might not be, if done well. And then in future take the time out to read a conversation properly before chiming in about who is offtopic and who isn't
You're missing some context. I'm referring to a thread spiral that has resulted in several similar threads getting locked in the past. I saw he opening for that spiral and was hoping we could skip it.
I was not arguing either way on whether future miniatures would likely be racist or seen as racist or neither.
SHUPPET wrote: Armies are based off historical culture, i dont think T'au is at all representative of Japanese culture just because they look anime like
African tribalism would make for an awesome faction. Black Panther fused tech and culture really well.
Don't be that reasonable! You'll ruin the low effort bait of JohnHwang using extremely old and clearly racist caricature miniatures that haven't been in sale for 20 years, as if they where exactly the same as quality concepts mixing the setting with proper cultural influences.
Except for the fact that we all know GW can't and won't produce "quality concepts" "with proper cultural influences". GW has promoted obviously racist material, and has NEVER apologized for it. The undercurrent of casual racism in GW's version of "British humour" goes hand in hand with GW's core identity. It's who they are.
The Tau very clearly include overtly Japanese design elements in their armor, above and beyond the robot suits. The shoulder pads, for example, are a dead giveaway.
Marvel's Black Panther was specifically created in the wake of many efforts to develop and promote diversity, stretching back decades. Again it's who they are.
So, no, it's not even close to trolling. It's noting things that GW has actually done. If you can't see or comprehend the obvious, maybe you should stop commenting.
Crimson Devil wrote: John, it dosen't matter if you have a legitimate point to make or not. Your past behavior colors the perception of anything you post.
And your's doesn't? BCB's doesn't? SHUPPET's doesn't? Peregrine's doesn't?
Fact is, I would prefer GW not touch "cultural themed minis", ever. They do a gak job of it, and it's offensive as feth. So, no. In fact, put me in the camp that says "feth NO!"
Yes in these both
-Release female/cultural themed miniatures in dedicated units and factions so players can choose to have them or not (
-Release female/cultural themed miniatures freely mixed in with other units, adding variety to players' modeling options
We need Adepta Sororitas and maybe cultural themed AM. Then we need more options for humans at least. Space Marines are themed already, Xenos have their own uniques.
What comes to Necrons, it is faulty english where you must call he/she or it. I do not know how genders were before they become robots. Maybe they were patriarch culture and women become low tier robots or even discarded. Or maybe they had no gender roles. He/she are imperium words.
Your own reference to the Tau proves you wrong. Clear real-world cultural influence, not caricatures or offensive. The fact that decades ago GW made some offensive miniatures doesn't mean that everything else they do will follow the same pattern.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Please, let's skip "miniatures can't be racist" and stay more on topic.
Let's skip the "these miniatures are going to be racist" comments, that prompted the replies in the first place, which stated that they might not be, if done well. And then in future take the time out to read a conversation properly before chiming in about who is offtopic and who isn't
You're missing some context. I'm referring to a thread spiral that has resulted in several similar threads getting locked in the past. I saw he opening for that spiral and was hoping we could skip it.
I was not arguing either way on whether future miniatures would likely be racist or seen as racist or neither.
My bad, I see exactly what you meant now, and I agree. I thought you were trying to shut down comments suggesting that it could be done well.
JohnHwangDD wrote:
Marvel's Black Panther was specifically created in the wake of many efforts to develop and promote diversity, stretching back decades. Again it's who they are.
I'm not sure what this is meant to mean in relation at all to my mentioning of the fact that they portrayed a fusion of tribal culture and tech in an excellent manner and something similar could work really cool for a faction to diversifying GW's range. In fact, if anything it seems to support what I said?
JohnHwangDD wrote:
Crimson Devil wrote: John, it dosen't matter if you have a legitimate point to make or not. Your past behavior colors the perception of anything you post.
And your's doesn't? BCB's doesn't? SHUPPET's doesn't?
It probably does color his perception of my statements, except unlike yourself and Peregrine, not in a negative way as I do try to conduct myself with some manner of rationality.
I would say yes to having female miniatures, and no to cultural, as I can only see caricaturing an existing and already racially defended culture (something Viking culture isn't - no one ever took offence to being called a Viking, even if it does imply slaughter, rape and washing your hair with caustic soda!) being deemed offensive and racist.
I would, however, prefer to have the kits separated or optional - in the same way as people went mad for beakie helmets to have a theme in their army, I would prefer not to have half and half in each box, but the option for all of them to be either - so that people can run all-male or all-female armies without having half of each box made redundant.
I would also love to see how they portray female ogryns without it somehow being offensive.
On the tau thing, the introduction of the tau was an actual attempt to appeal to the far east market and fans of that style, hence the shoulder armour and anime style robot suits.
Bretoonians weren’t racist and neither were the empire despite their blatant cultural tropes. The old world was a mirror of earth but with dragons and stuff.
40k has always used real world culture as inspiration. Romans, Greeks, all of it. If done carefully it can be done. There obviously some tropes that are mine fields but to say you don’t want cultural tropes in the game then bye bye half the marines and half the guard. The shoulder pads on tau are the least of you worries.
And there’s nothing racist about using medieval style armour form Japanese culture on anime robots. Predictable but it’s not offensive. People are calling for pith helmeted guard unquestioned when to many that is a sign of colonial oppression.
Crimson Devil wrote: John, it dosen't matter if you have a legitimate point to make or not. Your past behavior colors the perception of anything you post.
And your's doesn't? BCB's doesn't? SHUPPET's doesn't? Peregrine's doesn't?
Fact is, I would prefer GW not touch "cultural themed minis", ever. They do a gak job of it, and it's offensive as feth. So, no. In fact, put me in the camp that says "feth NO!"
That's not trolling. "NEVER" is a valid answer.
Could you give some examples? As non American I have troubles to see which minis are offensive as feth. I know they steal for different cultures and twist those things (The Council of Nicaea, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Vostroyans).
Crimson Devil wrote: John, it dosen't matter if you have a legitimate point to make or not. Your past behavior colors the perception of anything you post.
And your's doesn't? BCB's doesn't? SHUPPET's doesn't? Peregrine's doesn't?
Fact is, I would prefer GW not touch "cultural themed minis", ever. They do a gak job of it, and it's offensive as feth. So, no. In fact, put me in the camp that says "feth NO!"
That's not trolling. "NEVER" is a valid answer.
Could you give some examples? As non American I have troubles to see which minis are offensive as feth. I know they steal for different cultures and twist those things (The Council of Nicaea, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Vostroyans).
What's the real life cultural reference for Dark Angels, out of curiosity? I thought they were just kinda based off generic medievil culture pre-Imperium, and afterwards, god knows. Cult culture? lol
Peregrine wrote:If necrons are "genderless robots" then why are they referred to with male pronouns?
Because English is a rubbish language in many respects and it is ill-equipped to deal with non-binary gender or gender ambiguity.
So are most other languages, most languages know only female or male genders, at best you'll find a neutral ( sachlich) gender.
If you say most, you mean western europe right, so mostly latin and germanic language groups? Because if we go per capita chinese dialects are mostly used genderless most of the time. Or you get some fun stuff like japanesse where children, man and women have more or less a separate way of talking, and that is on top of 3 ways of writing used along side each other.
English has the problems it has, because some time around Edward the Conquerer some people decided that they are going to squeez french way of talking in to a germanic flection.
What's the real life cultural reference for Dark Angels, out of curiosity?
Well am not a native american, but if I would have to guess, it is the interaction between "white" dudes puting not their stuff on models after destroying the culture in the first place. Plus there could be some religious stuff too, again am not a native american, but I guess the feather mean something. Or to make it simpler it is like when your a catholic and see people using crosses as jewelry, specially if those people aren't very religious or even anti church.
Crimson Devil wrote: John, it dosen't matter if you have a legitimate point to make or not. Your past behavior colors the perception of anything you post.
And your's doesn't? BCB's doesn't? SHUPPET's doesn't? Peregrine's doesn't?
Fact is, I would prefer GW not touch "cultural themed minis", ever. They do a gak job of it, and it's offensive as feth. So, no. In fact, put me in the camp that says "feth NO!"
That's not trolling. "NEVER" is a valid answer.
Could you give some examples? As non American I have troubles to see which minis are offensive as feth. I know they steal for different cultures and twist those things (The Council of Nicaea, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Vostroyans).
What's the real life cultural reference for Dark Angels, out of curiosity? I thought they were just kinda based off generic medievil culture pre-Imperium, and afterwards, god knows. Cult culture? lol
The Deathwing used to have Native American influences. I think they dropped that a long time ago though. Now they are just Dark Angels in white armor, iirc. Dark Angels themselves take heavy influence from European medieval military monastic orders, even more so than the other chapters which are supposed to be warrior monks as well.
By “crosses” I think you specifically mean rosaries, which (unlike crosses) are generally not worn on one’s person unless on the belt of a Dominican friar.
Speaking of the rosary, 40k is in very large part based on the Black Legend - i.e., a mass of Anglophonic Protestant propaganda demonising Catholicism generally and in particular the Spanish. In its foundational elements, 40k is very explicitly carrying on a particularly British anti-Catholic prejudice that far from being a dead letter is in fact still troublesome even to this day, and even here across the Atlantic in the USA.
And yet this is not really cause for concern (IMO, speaking as a practicing Catholic) because, after all, 40k is an intentionally ridiculous setting with nothing whatsoever to offer as far as insight into the real world. I’m not so much concerned that 40k has any serious chance of meaningfully being offensive so much as the setting itself is actually at risk of importing images, symbols, tones, moods, etc., that “don’t fit” (e.g., the notion of 40k YA novels), thereby losing its distinctive gothic absurdity.
Put it another way, 40k has much more to fear from IRL than IRL has to fear from 40k.
I don't know how we have reached a point where "cultural influences"=racist portrayal of a culture.
Like... we can't make something without cultural influences because we , humans, are culture. We need to take inspiration from something and that "something" is always gonna be real world inspirations.
You can't look at a race, nation, faction, group, etc... in fantasy, sci-fi, or whatever fantasy world, and not see some inspirations on real world cultures, political ideologies, religions, etc...
But you can take that inspiration and create a good product, or you can take it and make a mockery of it. And in most cases, taking just the aesthetic because you happen to like it, is totally fine.
You have Warcraft for a clear example of a universe that normally just takes the aesthetic of certain cultures and not that much of the real world culture , like caribbean trols, or Inca Trolls, Viking Giants, Egiptian lion-centaurs, native american minotaurs. I suppose some people will find the use of an specific aesthetic offensive. But I believe as long as it is not use to mock that culture, is just the external recognition of how cool that thing looks.
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
Crimson Devil wrote: John, it dosen't matter if you have a legitimate point to make or not. Your past behavior colors the perception of anything you post.
And your's doesn't? BCB's doesn't? SHUPPET's doesn't? Peregrine's doesn't?
Fact is, I would prefer GW not touch "cultural themed minis", ever. They do a gak job of it, and it's offensive as feth. So, no. In fact, put me in the camp that says "feth NO!"
That's not trolling. "NEVER" is a valid answer.
Could you give some examples? As non American I have troubles to see which minis are offensive as feth. I know they steal for different cultures and twist those things (The Council of Nicaea, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Vostroyans).
What's the real life cultural reference for Dark Angels, out of curiosity? I thought they were just kinda based off generic medievil culture pre-Imperium, and afterwards, god knows. Cult culture? lol
The Deathwing used to have Native American influences. I think they dropped that a long time ago though. Now they are just Dark Angels in white armor, iirc. Dark Angels themselves take heavy influence from European medieval military monastic orders, even more so than the other chapters which are supposed to be warrior monks as well.
Way back in the day the home world of the recruits for Space Marines played a larger role in their background. The general DA background is European medieval monastic order based but the DA's background always had Caliban being destroyed so they had to recruit from other worlds. The original background for the Deathwing were that a group of terminators returned to their home planet to recruit some new space marines and found it overrun with genestealers. It is hinted at that the planets culture was basically a Native American one and the terminators went on a mad purging spree eventually wiping out the genestealer infestation but basically all or almost all died by the end. The other Deathwing painted their armor white in their honor and started wearing the feathers that the Deathwing terminators all have.
I am fairly sure this has all been retconned since but some of the old fluff is weird.
But you can take that inspiration and create a good product, or you can take it and make a mockery of it. And in most cases, taking just the aesthetic because you happen to like it, is totally fine.
You have Warcraft for a clear example of a universe that normally just takes the aesthetic of certain cultures and not that much of the real world culture , like caribbean trols, or Inca Trolls, Viking Giants, Egiptian lion-centaurs, native american minotaurs. I suppose some people will find the use of an specific aesthetic offensive. But I believe as long as it is not use to mock that culture, is just the external recognition of how cool that thing looks.
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
Whilst I agree with your overall point. Warcraft is a bad example. Their humans are very European, you cannot even give them properly black skin colour. Same with elves. However, more 'monstrous' races pilfer from non-european cultures, Caribbean trolls, native american minotaurs etc. And of course (like GW!) they had pygmies. They had a diminutive primitive gobliny species that spoke with mock African/Arabian sounding language named after real group from real world. And this was quite recently, unlike GW's pygmies that were decades ago.
Taking inspiration from real cultures is absolutely fine, but perhaps don't then transplant those cultures in to weird mosnster people while humans and very human-looking elves are pale Europeans. That is very othering.
But yeah, Black Panther is great example how to do this sort of thing correctly, and I really don't see any issue with African themed Space Marine chapter done in similar manner.
Crimson Devil wrote: John, it dosen't matter if you have a legitimate point to make or not. Your past behavior colors the perception of anything you post.
And your's doesn't? BCB's doesn't? SHUPPET's doesn't? Peregrine's doesn't?
Fact is, I would prefer GW not touch "cultural themed minis", ever. They do a gak job of it, and it's offensive as feth. So, no. In fact, put me in the camp that says "feth NO!"
That's not trolling. "NEVER" is a valid answer.
Could you give some examples? As non American I have troubles to see which minis are offensive as feth. I know they steal for different cultures and twist those things (The Council of Nicaea, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Vostroyans).
What's the real life cultural reference for Dark Angels, out of curiosity? I thought they were just kinda based off generic medievil culture pre-Imperium, and afterwards, god knows. Cult culture? lol
The Deathwing used to have Native American influences. I think they dropped that a long time ago though. Now they are just Dark Angels in white armor, iirc. Dark Angels themselves take heavy influence from European medieval military monastic orders, even more so than the other chapters which are supposed to be warrior monks as well.
Way back in the day the home world of the recruits for Space Marines played a larger role in their background. The general DA background is European medieval monastic order based but the DA's background always had Caliban being destroyed so they had to recruit from other worlds. The original background for the Deathwing were that a group of terminators returned to their home planet to recruit some new space marines and found it overrun with genestealers. It is hinted at that the planets culture was basically a Native American one and the terminators went on a mad purging spree eventually wiping out the genestealer infestation but basically all or almost all died by the end. The other Deathwing painted their armor white in their honor and started wearing the feathers that the Deathwing terminators all have.
I am fairly sure this has all been retconned since but some of the old fluff is weird.
Way back in 1989, when Space Hulk and the first metal Terminators as we would recognise them were released, Dark Angels still wore black armour, and the entirety of their background was one panel at the bottom of a page in the Rogue Trader rulebook talking about the Feast of the Emperor's Ascension, which was vaguely Catholic-tinged, but no moreso than anyone else. Then came the Deathwing expansion for Space Hulk in 1990, and Bill King wrote the short story that runs through the rulebook for that. That's what introduced the Native American plains tribes theme to the Chapter; at that point, there was no such thing as Caliban, and this world was the recruiting world for the Dark Angels (the genestealer infestation is explicitly described as threatening the future of the Chapter if it takes over completely). The white armour - originally white, not bone - is ritual warpaint that tribes warriors would wear when undertaking a suicidal mission. It was only three or four years later when the 2nd edition Codex Angels of Death was released that the whole story of Lion el'Johnson, Luther and Caliban was introduced, and the Deathwing terminator models with the feathers had to be retconned (those miniatures were actually released at the tail end of 1st edition, a year or so before the Codex; the Deathwing banner represents the sacrifice of the Librarian Lucian / Two heads Talking who killed the genestealer Patriarch in single combat at the cost of his own life).
By now, with the redesign of the miniatures, the entirety of that old story has been excised. It still remains as a vestigial tale about how the Deathwing saved one of the Dark Angels recruiting worlds, but if it had been dropped, there's no longer any odd feathers that need explaining away, IIRC.
But you can take that inspiration and create a good product, or you can take it and make a mockery of it. And in most cases, taking just the aesthetic because you happen to like it, is totally fine.
You have Warcraft for a clear example of a universe that normally just takes the aesthetic of certain cultures and not that much of the real world culture , like caribbean trols, or Inca Trolls, Viking Giants, Egiptian lion-centaurs, native american minotaurs. I suppose some people will find the use of an specific aesthetic offensive. But I believe as long as it is not use to mock that culture, is just the external recognition of how cool that thing looks.
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
Whilst I agree with your overall point. Warcraft is a bad example. Their humans are very European, you cannot even give them properly black skin colour. Same with elves. However, more 'monstrous' races pilfer from non-european cultures, Caribbean trolls, native american minotaurs etc. And of course (like GW!) they had pygmies. They had a diminutive primitive gobliny species that spoke with mock African/Arabian sounding language named after real group from real world. And this was quite recently, unlike GW's pygmies that were decades ago.
Taking inspiration from real cultures is absolutely fine, but perhaps don't then transplant those cultures in to weird mosnster people while humans and very human-looking elves are pale Europeans. That is very othering.
But yeah, Black Panther is great example how to do this sort of thing correctly, and I really don't see any issue with African themed Space Marine chapter done in similar manner.
I can see your point, specially about Pigmeys... but I don't know, maybe is because I prefer the monsters to the boring humans, that I find those much more interesting. Is not like those races are protrayed as monsters devoid of any virtue. Taurens (The native american minotaurs for the profane) for example, are probably the best portrayed race of the setting, the most noble and virtuous of all of the races. Strong, honor-bound, but that prefer peace over war.
And about the elfs... well. You have the Blood Elves, that are basically arabs and that normally have a brownish-tanned skin (You can compare then with the more pale High Elves, that lack their arabic influences in clothes and architecture), or the Night Elves with their japanese aesthetic.
Spoiler:
I agree that humans are all of european cultures, but you can gave them asiatic faces and black skin. Not jet-black african skin but black skin. I remember than in the movie, the two captains of Lothar where a black man and an asiatic man.
EDIT: I'll add that of course we can't ignore the... subyacent racist theme of european humans vs monsters of other cultures. But at the end of the day the world is built around Warcraft 1. I really miss a fantasy setting centered around an arabic world with european based monsters, specifically based around the crusader states. THAT would be original and cool.
Blood elves having some Arab influences makes it worse. You can't give them dark skin, they often have blonde hair. These euro elves stealing bits of non-european culture to add some 'exotic' flavour is pretty much the definition of cultural appropriation.
Just do like with faction specific gear: release add-on sprues.
Would be cost effective and get what people want.
Release in those small blister packs and have as general or unit specific upgrades.
Anything like kilts and stuff could be a little harder.
Other companies have been selling add-on/upgrade bits for years, GW could do quite well making a few if they wished.
Eldar already has a bit of a mix, they could use more.
The Cadian AM/IG sprue is really old and could easily include some female parts or alternate gear.
It would still be handled better with a separate sprue dropped in with the rest.
Well at least minis can be painted pretty much every colour we have plus more exotic ones.
yeah, this is definitely one reason why minis themed around various current-world cultures are less necessary. Just to make it an interesting exercise, I painted all my kairic acolytes with slightly different skin tones, and they look pretty cool on the table.
I think the easiest rule of thumb for making sure you don't get offensive with the cultural reference miniatures is "give them 2 shticks". Kairic Acolytes have a cool egyptian scheme, but they're also "magic cultist" themed. If they had the squiggly daggers and egyptian outfits and instead of the cultist masks they had turbans and beards...yeah I think you'd get some complaints there.
Crimson Devil wrote: John, it dosen't matter if you have a legitimate point to make or not. Your past behavior colors the perception of anything you post.
And your's doesn't? BCB's doesn't? SHUPPET's doesn't? Peregrine's doesn't?
Fact is, I would prefer GW not touch "cultural themed minis", ever. They do a gak job of it, and it's offensive as feth. So, no. In fact, put me in the camp that says "feth NO!"
That's not trolling. "NEVER" is a valid answer.
Could you give some examples? As non American I have troubles to see which minis are offensive as feth.
I know they steal for different cultures and twist those things (The Council of Nicaea, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Vostroyans).
If you scroll up a page or two, I linked to the Pygmy caricatures that the Perrys sculpted for GW, racist names and all. This also carries over to naming things, like the "Spear Chukka" (spear chucker is derogatory against blacks). Things that they've had in CJ with racist pejoratives painted on them. And so on. It's not an isolated incident in the past, it's a pattern that spans decades when they should have known better.
It's one thing to reference history, another to stereotype and caricature. If GW wants to stereotype Vikings or Monks, fine, I get the fantasy reference and tropes. I'm not entirely sure how Scandanavians or actual monks look at it. But as a non-white person, no, I'm not going to support what is certain to be yet another an offensively racist caricature that's supposed to be "funny".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Galas wrote: I can see your point, specially about Pigmeys... but I don't know, maybe is because I prefer the monsters to the boring humans, that I find those much more interesting. Is not like those races are protrayed as monsters devoid of any virtue. Taurens (The native american minotaurs for the profane) for example, are probably the best portrayed race of the setting, the most noble and virtuous of all of the races. Strong, honor-bound, but that prefer peace over war.
The "Noble Savage" is a racist trope that is not infrequently applied to Native Americans in particular.
I know the "Noble Savage" trope but how exactly it is racist, or at least, more racist than all other tropes related to the culture of the individual? You can have "noble savages" represented as barbaric gauls, or vikings, etc... just as common as to amerindian tribes.
Unles you understand racist as anything related to the ethnicity of the individual. For me, for something to be racist it needs to be derogatory and paint something or someone in a bad light just for his origin (Being this origin related to the ethnical background of the objetct in question)
Galas wrote: I know the "Noble Savage" trope but how exactly it is racist, or at least, more racist than all other tropes related to the culture of the individual? You can have "noble savages" represented as barbaric gauls, or vikings, etc... just as common as to amerindian tribes.
It stereotypes the race in a way that is false and lacks depth and dimension. I am not aware of the trope applied to Gauls or Vikings as such, but it is very common with Native Americans, from the very beginning.
Galas wrote: I know the "Noble Savage" trope but how exactly it is racist, or at least, more racist than all other tropes related to the culture of the individual? You can have "noble savages" represented as barbaric gauls, or vikings, etc... just as common as to amerindian tribes.
It stereotypes the race in a way that is false and lacks depth and dimension. I am not aware of the trope applied to Gauls or Vikings as such, but it is very common with Native Americans, from the very beginning.
While not common in modern society given the distance from events, the noble savage was heavily applied to the Gauls in eras past. The statue of the Dying Gaul is a spectacular example.
But specifically the "Noble Savage" trope is more related to the culture than to the race, because it can apply to your typical fantasy or real world barbaric culture, without relation to his ethnic background.
Of course I know stereotypes are bad, and are a cheap and lazy way to write anything (Sadly, lazy writting is rampant in most mainstream products and Warhammer is no exception). But I believe theres stereotypes and stereotypes, not all of them are equally bad.
Galas wrote: I know the "Noble Savage" trope but how exactly it is racist, or at least, more racist than all other tropes related to the culture of the individual? You can have "noble savages" represented as barbaric gauls, or vikings, etc... just as common as to amerindian tribes.
It stereotypes the race in a way that is false and lacks depth and dimension. I am not aware of the trope applied to Gauls or Vikings as such, but it is very common with Native Americans, from the very beginning.
While not common in modern society given the distance from events, the noble savage was heavily applied to the Gauls in eras past. The statue of the Dying Gaul is a spectacular example.
Afaik, Tacitus' Germania works in a similar way - probably in order to criticize in a lateral way his own citizen for their decadence (true or perceived).
If you scroll up a page or two, I linked to the Pygmy caricatures that the Perrys sculpted for GW, racist names and all. This also carries over to naming things, like the "Spear Chukka" (spear chucker is derogatory against blacks). Things that they've had in CJ with racist pejoratives painted on them. And so on. It's not an isolated incident in the past, it's a pattern that spans decades when they should have known better.
If you scroll up a page or two, I linked to the Pygmy caricatures that the Perrys sculpted for GW, racist names and all. This also carries over to naming things, like the "Spear Chukka" (spear chucker is derogatory against blacks). Things that they've had in CJ with racist pejoratives painted on them. And so on. It's not an isolated incident in the past, it's a pattern that spans decades when they should have known better.
If you scroll up a page or two, I linked to the Pygmy caricatures that the Perrys sculpted for GW, racist names and all. This also carries over to naming things, like the "Spear Chukka" (spear chucker is derogatory against blacks). Things that they've had in CJ with racist pejoratives painted on them. And so on. It's not an isolated incident in the past, it's a pattern that spans decades when they should have known better.
If you scroll up a page or two, I linked to the Pygmy caricatures that the Perrys sculpted for GW, racist names and all. This also carries over to naming things, like the "Spear Chukka" (spear chucker is derogatory against blacks). Things that they've had in CJ with racist pejoratives painted on them. And so on. It's not an isolated incident in the past, it's a pattern that spans decades when they should have known better.
If you don't think "spear chucker" is racist, just ask a black stranger if what he thinks, and let us know how it goes.
The Pygmy article is on point. The Perry version was done around the time of the Bill King "Deathwatch" noble savages story.
Grots are not black. If you show grot spear chukka to someone black and say their name what they say? If other black is from USA and other is from Europe is there difference?
While I don't believe in moral relativism, it's unrealistic to expect past times to retrospectively conform to modern ideas about race and so on.
That's why there are warnings at the beginning of episodes of Endeavour (young Inspector Morse) set in the 1960s.
What actually is this thread about? Haven't we got rather off the topic in discussing 30 year old designs? A lot of forum members weren't yet born when the pygmies were released.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Those pygmy models were of their time.
While I don't believe in moral relativism, it's unrealistic to expect past times to retrospectively conform to modern ideas about race and so on.
That's why there are warnings at the beginning of episodes of Endeavour (young Inspector Morse) set in the 1960s.
What actually is this thread about? Haven't we got rather off the topic in discussing 30 year old designs? A lot of forum members weren't yet born when the pygmies were released.
If you scroll up a page or two, I linked to the Pygmy caricatures that the Perrys sculpted for GW, racist names and all. This also carries over to naming things, like the "Spear Chukka" (spear chucker is derogatory against blacks). Things that they've had in CJ with racist pejoratives painted on them. And so on. It's not an isolated incident in the past, it's a pattern that spans decades when they should have known better.
If you don't think "spear chucker" is racist, just ask a black stranger if what he thinks, and let us know how it goes.
Hmmm I don't have another black stranger on hand at 7 am, but I instead asked my black wife if naming a unit "goblin spear chucka" is racist, she just laughed. For your sake I asked if she would find it offensive to name it just "spear chucka" and she said, well if it made any allusions to her race then maybe. Does it? Or are we being ridiculous?
This kind of topic will never have a winning answer. If GW were to make "cultural" models, they'd be accused of cultural appropriation or racism no matter what they did, full stop. When you engage in moral and cultural relativism, morality becomes subjective. Which in turn means that you're opening yourself up to an infinite number of subjectively based criticisms, all offering different reasons for why you're wrong.
In fact, the central conceit of post-modern thought is the criticism and deconstruction of all institutions, social constructs, ideas and creative works from any fathomable direction a person can conceive of. That's literally the purpose of it in itself. While that is often engendered from the well-intentioned goal of breaking down the status quo in order to make way for a more equitable order, it's a matter of philosophical principle that this aim can never be satisfied, since any objective measures of its success would themselves become targets of deconstructive analysis.
Even after saying all of that, my personal feeling is that it would never be possible to do "honor" to minority ethnic groups or cultures in a medium such as fantasy wargames. There is simply no way you could make them distinct without appealing to some kind of stereotype or trope. The only safe course would be to completely ignore ethnic and cultural differences in the 41st millennium and simply feature more people of different skin tones in official artwork and model demos as if they were all just interchangeable meat for the grinder.
It's a game that EVERYONE loses eventually, and as such, the only winning move is not to play.
Galas wrote: I know the "Noble Savage" trope but how exactly it is racist, or at least, more racist than all other tropes related to the culture of the individual? You can have "noble savages" represented as barbaric gauls, or vikings, etc... just as common as to amerindian tribes.
It stereotypes the race in a way that is false and lacks depth and dimension. I am not aware of the trope applied to Gauls or Vikings as such, but it is very common with Native Americans, from the very beginning.
Well then you should read the bello gallico. It is a way to descibe stuff to make yoursellf better. You can't just say you over run other dudes by superior numbers, and paying off half of the other side. It also can be use for local stuff. When Cezar writes that waging constant war vs germans that live on the other side of Denub, and nod doing "merchanting" keeps the feminity away from gallic man. He shows the reader what traits in citizents he wants to promote.
Or if you want to accuse another country of genocide, maybe hide your own or attack the party that is currently ruling, you say the people they are fighting a noble human beings, and that "The People" should do everything to stop the massacer. The british did this to the dutch and german when they were purging kongo or the hottentot tribes.
Galas wrote: I know the "Noble Savage" trope but how exactly it is racist, or at least, more racist than all other tropes related to the culture of the individual? You can have "noble savages" represented as barbaric gauls, or vikings, etc... just as common as to amerindian tribes.
It stereotypes the race in a way that is false and lacks depth and dimension. I am not aware of the trope applied to Gauls or Vikings as such, but it is very common with Native Americans, from the very beginning.
Well then you should read the bello gallico. It is a way to descibe stuff to make yoursellf better. You can't just say you over run other dudes by superior numbers, and paying off half of the other side. It also can be use for local stuff. When Cezar writes that waging constant war vs germans that live on the other side of Denub, and nod doing "merchanting" keeps the feminity away from gallic man. He shows the reader what traits in citizents he wants to promote.
Or if you want to accuse another country of genocide, maybe hide your own or attack the party that is currently ruling, you say the people they are fighting a noble human beings, and that "The People" should do everything to stop the massacer. The british did this to the dutch and german when they were purging kongo or the hottentot tribes.
Isn't the whole bello gallico anyways kinda his magnus Opus as a politician.
Additionally he very much was succsessfull to a large degree in his genocide of the helveti.
Caesar managed to make the helveti look like a bloodthirsty tribe that could neither be integrated nor controlled. Ironically a greek historian that first described the helveti as " rich on gold but peacefull "
Luciferian wrote: This kind of topic will never have a winning answer. If GW were to make "cultural" models, they'd be accused of cultural appropriation or racism no matter what they did, full stop. When you engage in moral and cultural relativism, morality becomes subjective. Which in turn means that you're opening yourself up to an infinite number of subjectively based criticisms, all offering different reasons for why you're wrong.
I agree and to be honest I don't know what is worse. No female or other human race models among w40k line, or having 2 token female models and one to two non white dudes in every unit. This means females and other races are not added to better the setting, but just to avoid being called out.
And cool racial stuff can be part of a game. Haqqislam in Infinity is an awesome faction with a ton of cool fluff for its sub factions. I would like to see stuff like that in w40k.
A faction based on 1000 nights tales monsters or stories. A knight household based around Partian Cathaphract or Kurdish warriors Saladin had.
The must have X% of Y or woe be you, is stupid to me. But am not the owner of GW, nor am I living in the west. Living in the west is dangerous .
Isn't the whole bello gallico anyways kinda his magnus Opus as a politician.
Additionally he very much was succsessfull to a large degree in his genocide of the helveti.
The is more the bello civili. De gallico is his racist stuff. He was a very good writer and knew how to play the reader.
But the best thing to read as political satire goes is Apocolocyntosis divi Claudii by Totally-not-Seneka. SNL skits have nothing on it.
Did edit my comment above. @Karol. Caesar anyways was as dirty as a politician can and could be. Furthering his own agenda on the cost of others. Dehumanizing his enemies whilest also furthering his own glory as a great general /statesman.
In other words he mastered propaganda.
Did edit my comment above. @Karol. Caesar anyways was as dirty as a politician can and could be. Furthering his own agenda on the cost of others. Dehumanizing his enemies whilest also furthering his own glory as a great general /statesman.
In other words he mastered propaganda.
Been a while since I brushed up on my Roman history but I recall even at the time many politicians were calling Caesar out for going to far. This was likely motivated by his rivals looking for a reason to knock him down a peg but you had to have been pretty bloody for getting cries of genocide back the.
Even after saying all of that, my personal feeling is that it would never be possible to do "honor" to minority ethnic groups or cultures in a medium such as fantasy wargames. There is simply no way you could make them distinct without appealing to some kind of stereotype or trope. The only safe course would be to completely ignore ethnic and cultural differences in the 41st millennium and simply feature more people of different skin tones in official artwork and model demos as if they were all just interchangeable meat for the grinder.
It's a game that EVERYONE loses eventually, and as such, the only winning move is not to play.
I suppose the best possible move is to do what the designers originally did with the Eldar. Eldar design is influence by a number of different cultures, but these are numerous, and the blending is very strong. Separate single elements is easy but is difficult to "accuse" the Eldar to be a ripoff of a specific culture.
Luciferian wrote: This kind of topic will never have a winning answer. If GW were to make "cultural" models, they'd be accused of cultural appropriation or racism no matter what they did, full stop. When you engage in moral and cultural relativism, morality becomes subjective. Which in turn means that you're opening yourself up to an infinite number of subjectively based criticisms, all offering different reasons for why you're wrong.
You're missing the minor detail of the quantity and quality of objections. If a thousand people object poorly but a hundred thousand support it well then there really isn't much of a problem. If there will always be someone out there who'll complain the lesson to be taken from that is to not fully gak yourself when a complaint happens. A minimum of integrity comes in handy.
Did edit my comment above. @Karol. Caesar anyways was as dirty as a politician can and could be. Furthering his own agenda on the cost of others. Dehumanizing his enemies whilest also furthering his own glory as a great general /statesman.
In other words he mastered propaganda.
Been a while since I brushed up on my Roman history but I recall even at the time many politicians were calling Caesar out for going to far. This was likely motivated by his rivals looking for a reason to knock him down a peg but you had to have been pretty bloody for getting cries of genocide back the.
Estimates range from total anahilation to severly crippled. 2/3ds dead supposedly albeit grain of salt.
Btw the greek i quoted earlier in regards to the helveti was hekaitos of milet estimated 500bc and at that time in massalia.
Anyways enough sidetracking.
Did edit my comment above. @Karol. Caesar anyways was as dirty as a politician can and could be. Furthering his own agenda on the cost of others. Dehumanizing his enemies whilest also furthering his own glory as a great general /statesman.
In other words he mastered propaganda.
Well considering how he started his career under Sula, avoiding being killed like most of his male relatives, and then what he had to do in Pont, the rest is a normal conclusion. I don't think he was de humanizing his opponents, at least not most of them, but most of his schtick was X was super awesome and kicking butt, and it took me Cezar to beat them. There is some rough stuff durning both De Belli, but I put it down to most people not having much to do with day to day working of classical era war.
He was not no Pompei, but his troops loved him and he was able to control them most of the time. Only time he lost control of them, was when some of his troops made a turtle to break a wall or gate , and the rebels droped a ballista on the turtle dudes. There were some really liked guys among those, and the cezarians got a bit angry about it.
Shame he died, and the republic ended up with Augustus. One could draw parallers to Cezar getting Brutused, the emperor getting killed by Horus, and what the imperium/republic ended up as after their deaths. To make matters worse w40k ended up with living breathing Krassus at its helm. Worse then female marines that is.
Rosebuddy wrote: You're missing the minor detail of the quantity and quality of objections. If a thousand people object poorly but a hundred thousand support it well then there really isn't much of a problem.
If 100,000 white people think it's OK to refer to black people as "spear chuckers", and 1,000 non-white people object to that, it actually IS a problem.
If you scroll up a page or two, I linked to the Pygmy caricatures that the Perrys sculpted for GW, racist names and all. This also carries over to naming things, like the "Spear Chukka" (spear chucker is derogatory against blacks). Things that they've had in CJ with racist pejoratives painted on them. And so on. It's not an isolated incident in the past, it's a pattern that spans decades when they should have known better.
If you don't think "spear chucker" is racist, just ask a black stranger if what he thinks, and let us know how it goes.
Hmmm I don't have another black stranger on hand at 7 am, but I instead asked my black wife if naming a unit "goblin spear chucka" is racist, she just laughed. For your sake I asked if she would find it offensive to name it just "spear chucka" and she said, well if it made any allusions to her race then maybe. Does it? Or are we being ridiculous?
Did edit my comment above. @Karol. Caesar anyways was as dirty as a politician can and could be. Furthering his own agenda on the cost of others. Dehumanizing his enemies whilest also furthering his own glory as a great general /statesman.
In other words he mastered propaganda.
Been a while since I brushed up on my Roman history but I recall even at the time many politicians were calling Caesar out for going to far. This was likely motivated by his rivals looking for a reason to knock him down a peg but you had to have been pretty bloody for getting cries of genocide back the.
Estimates range from total anahilation to severly crippled. 2/3ds dead supposedly albeit grain of salt.
Btw the greek i quoted earlier in regards to the helveti was hekaitos of milet estimated 500bc and at that time in massalia.
Anyways enough sidetracking.
Nah they always write stuff down like that, it same in the migration period and the middle ages. Full anihilations, no one left alive, we are all bavarians or burgunds. And then you check the burial rites, or start to wonder why are there still etruskan rituals, including human sacrifice being performed 200 years after Roman writers claim they were wiped out. Now am not saying things weren't brutal back then, or that people were killed en mass. But full wipes of cities or armies were really rare. Alexander wiped out one or two cities to the ground, no slaves taken. Canna ended with republican legions being wiped out, because they had no where to run. Most deaths came from plague and disease. Some historians even argue if one of the "best" weapons of early roman legions wasn't malaria they brought around with them.
Yeah, context is important. Spear Chucka isn't being used to people here, its referring to a ballista. Which greenskins would call a spear chucka because that's what it does, just as we would call a ballista a bolt thrower.
Rosebuddy wrote: You're missing the minor detail of the quantity and quality of objections. If a thousand people object poorly but a hundred thousand support it well then there really isn't much of a problem.
If 100,000 white people think it's OK to refer to black people as "spear chuckers", and 1,000 non-white people object to that, it actually IS a problem.
Only for the non black people, from the sociaty point of view it is all good. Works in reverse too. If most population thinks that taking of land from white farmers in any way is ok, and the white farmers think it is not ok, and the white farmers are not the majority, it will be seen by people as ok.
Kaiyanwang wrote: [
I suppose the best possible move is to do what the designers originally did with the Eldar. Eldar design is influence by a number of different cultures, but these are numerous, and the blending is very strong. Separate single elements is easy but is difficult to "accuse" the Eldar to be a ripoff of a specific culture.
I would agree that's a good way to use a range of influences to create a fantasy race, but it still wouldn't satisfy anyone who would claim that Warhammer isn't "representative" or "diverse" enough when it comes to accurately representing contemporary minority and ethnic groups in a futuristic fantasy setting. I'm just "wargaming" various possible complaints and criticisms because when it comes to a topic like this they will be raised by someone.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, context is important. Spear Chucka isn't being used to people here, its referring to a ballista. Which greenskins would call a spear chucka because that's what it does, just as we would call a ballista a bolt thrower.
Stupid question, in which country is spear chucka used as an insult/racial derogatory term?
Kaiyanwang wrote: [
I suppose the best possible move is to do what the designers originally did with the Eldar. Eldar design is influence by a number of different cultures, but these are numerous, and the blending is very strong. Separate single elements is easy but is difficult to "accuse" the Eldar to be a ripoff of a specific culture.
I would agree that's a good way to use a range of influences to create a fantasy race, but it still wouldn't satisfy anyone who would claim that Warhammer isn't "representative" or "diverse" enough when it comes to accurately representing contemporary minority and ethnic groups in a futuristic fantasy setting. I'm just "wargaming" various possible complaints and criticisms because when it comes to a topic like this they will be raised by someone.
Well if you go by that metric you would have to find the most influencial groups right now, and ask them to redesign the game from ground up. No change would be good enough. Heck, even stuff like, the changes are being made by mostly white man, could be used as an argument against the changes.
The question is would this mean we would end up with w40k in the marvel comics form, or the marvel Movies form. The movies are good to great, the comics are insufferably hard to read.
I mean in a world where a costume for kids is problematic everything could be possible. For example is it ok, for a white man to play with an army of female dark elf snake women? remember when some people were angry about fur being modeled on GW miniatures? Sky is the limit as far as being outrage goes, specialy if it is your method of generating income.
I would agree that's a good way to use a range of influences to create a fantasy race, but it still wouldn't satisfy anyone who would claim that Warhammer isn't "representative" or "diverse" enough when it comes to accurately representing contemporary minority and ethnic groups in a futuristic fantasy setting. I'm just "wargaming" various possible complaints and criticisms because when it comes to a topic like this they will be raised by someone.
I mean in a world where a costume for kids is problematic everything could be possible. For example is it ok, for a white man to play with an army of female dark elf snake women? remember when some people were angry about fur being modeled on GW miniatures? Sky is the limit as far as being outrage goes, specialy if it is your method of generating income.
Only for the non black people, from the sociaty point of view it is all good. Works in reverse too. If most population thinks that taking of land from white farmers in any way is ok, and the white farmers think it is not ok, and the white farmers are not the majority, it will be seen by people as ok.
This is a very dangerous ground. It makes sound an invasion or abuse of power from a bigger nation to a small and defenseless one as automatically right in some way.
This is a very dangerous ground. It makes sound an invasion or abuse of power from a bigger nation to a small and defenseless one as automatically right in some way.
That is exactly how it works in the real world. Iraq invades Kuwait, gets wacked by the whole world. Any of the main members of the security coucil invade anything other then each other? no reaction. Heck you can have a treaty sign up Ad Perpetum by UK, US, Russian Federation and I think France too, and it can be walked over. As long as the country doing the walking has a nuke stock pile.
Not a new thing in history either. If some dutchy in germany in the XVI century decided to do the stuff France did, it would end up wiped out.
As J Stalin once said, international laws are there to bind the weak and enbolden the strong. And IMO he was right on that one. One of our own writers once said something simiular. That when a great country does something A-holic it still has the grandour of a great country, when a weak country does something A-holic it is just A-holic.
By the way I do not try to promote doing A-holic things here. IMO the good stuff GW can do, is to add copy of cool stuff from other countries folklore. There is a ton of cool, new stuff they could, and am not affraid to say it, steal. Trying to make all people happy, including those whose main source of income is being unhappy all the time, is a lost couse, and can only end up bad for the brand.
So more Kosciey Knights, More not-Djin, more not-Mpanku stealing the moon from the Red Dragon and less we need to have 25,98989898989% female in every box or the world ends. It is insulting to female too, By forcing an X % of anything, one more or less insinuates that on its own the X would never be interesting to the whole population , and as the SoB example shows us this is not the case.
Rosebuddy wrote: You're missing the minor detail of the quantity and quality of objections. If a thousand people object poorly but a hundred thousand support it well then there really isn't much of a problem.
If 100,000 white people think it's OK to refer to black people as "spear chuckers", and 1,000 non-white people object to that, it actually IS a problem.
Only for the non black people, from the sociaty point of view it is all good. Works in reverse too. If most population thinks that taking of land from white farmers in any way is ok, and the white farmers think it is not ok, and the white farmers are not the majority, it will be seen by people as ok.
I didn't know that you were a fan of Mugabe stealing the land of white farmers in Rhodesia
