Finally got my book yesterday. From what I saw so far, it looks pretty good.

BomBomHotdog wrote:
On the note of "good" Dark elves, remember that Order doesn't equal "Good." Just look at Deepkin, Daughters, or some of the Stormcast in the fluff. The dark elf factions are self serving and power hungry. The fact that they work with SIgmar and his allies is to further their own ends more-so then to enact any kind of righteousness. In short, the aelves of Ulgu sided with Sigmar out of convince and mutual hatred of Chaos.

Yeah, Warhammer has a very old school approach to alignment, where it's really more about what team you're on, rather than if you are moral or immoral. So you can lie, steal, cheat, break rules, or assassinate all you'd like, but if you do it for Sigmar, you're still Order.

One interesting aspect of the Warhammer universe is that unlike most fantasty worlds, the evil alignments are far more nuanced and interesting. Order is clearly all three Lawful Alignments, including Lawful Evil. Chaos is obviously Chaotic Evil as well as Chaotic Good, although Warhammer Chaos (which is essentially worshipping the chaos gods instead of your proper gods) doesn't completely overlay with D&D Chaos (which is more philosophical or personality aversion to structure, rules, and authority.) A chaos horde might be unruly, but nobody will go far rebelling at every turn. So, you can argue that Chaos will arguably a lot of Neutral or even Lawful evil (I struggle to think of what really separates the morals and ethics of a Dark Elf from a Skaven, or an Undivided Chaos Warrior, and I can't think of it.) Death would probably stretch over big chunks of the alignment chart, with FEC arguably reaching Lawful Good, the Vampires lurking in Evil, and Tomb Kings being one of the most Lawful neutral factions ever. Again, being part of death isn't about morality, but simply if you follow a death god, you are dead. Finally, Destruction has the sharpest claim to true neutral, and would likely share Chaotic Neutral with the goofier parts of Tzeetch/Slaanesh, as well as Beastmen.

I also received the book. It seems like the battalion of Hallowheart is pretty much a no brainer, if you play this city.
Also now that Demigryph knights have a proper damage output, I do not see Greatswords to be necessary any more.

I think its more that Warhammer just flat out doesn't use the DnD morality system.

Furthermore within each faction there's often significant scope for each race to be very varied. Even in the Old World most of the core races could vary a fair bit though some, like orks, were most often shoehorned as the bad-guy in many tales.

AoS I think will go a step further and we'll get much more variety in the stories about factions. Even Chaos is actually appearing quite "nice" in some regions. Your Slaves to Darkness and Wrycry Warbands are closer to wild peoples than they are the full screaming slaving mutants of Chaos. It creates a really neat duel chaos layer whereby you've got pure evil destroy the world on one hand; and on the other wild peoples who are not really out to kill everyone, but they can be rather "wild" and savage,but still come home and hug their kids, pet the dog and feed their family etc... We got a really neat showing of this in the War Queen novella.

I think it makes Chaos far more interesting and its doing a lot more for showing how a whole people could turn to Chaos, not just a handful of half insane people lusting after power.

 Polonius wrote:

BomBomHotdog wrote:
On the note of "good" Dark elves, remember that Order doesn't equal "Good." Just look at Deepkin, Daughters, or some of the Stormcast in the fluff. The dark elf factions are self serving and power hungry. The fact that they work with SIgmar and his allies is to further their own ends more-so then to enact any kind of righteousness. In short, the aelves of Ulgu sided with Sigmar out of convince and mutual hatred of Chaos.

Yeah, Warhammer has a very old school approach to alignment, where it's really more about what team you're on, rather than if you are moral or immoral. So you can lie, steal, cheat, break rules, or assassinate all you'd like, but if you do it for Sigmar, you're still Order.

One interesting aspect of the Warhammer universe is that unlike most fantasty worlds, the evil alignments are far more nuanced and interesting. Order is clearly all three Lawful Alignments, including Lawful Evil. Chaos is obviously Chaotic Evil as well as Chaotic Good, although Warhammer Chaos (which is essentially worshipping the chaos gods instead of your proper gods) doesn't completely overlay with D&D Chaos (which is more philosophical or personality aversion to structure, rules, and authority.) A chaos horde might be unruly, but nobody will go far rebelling at every turn. So, you can argue that Chaos will arguably a lot of Neutral or even Lawful evil (I struggle to think of what really separates the morals and ethics of a Dark Elf from a Skaven, or an Undivided Chaos Warrior, and I can't think of it.) Death would probably stretch over big chunks of the alignment chart, with FEC arguably reaching Lawful Good, the Vampires lurking in Evil, and Tomb Kings being one of the most Lawful neutral factions ever. Again, being part of death isn't about morality, but simply if you follow a death god, you are dead. Finally, Destruction has the sharpest claim to true neutral, and would likely share Chaotic Neutral with the goofier parts of Tzeetch/Slaanesh, as well as Beastmen.

Skaven are wondefully unreedmable and all evil - its lovely to have a race/faction whatever that doesn;t have a good side, they hate everyone, blame everyone else etc - we donlt have "Good" skaven in the world and never should have - nearest you get is occassionally not very bright ones who do as they are told....

Dark Elves, Vampires, Tomb Kings even Chaos can have lovers and friends, families and loyalties - to a Skaven they are ALL compettitors, food, enemies or combination of all three. The Order of the Fly and other Chaos organisations in the lore/novels show a much more interesting side than they began with Khornate warriors screaming for blood.

How do skaven reproduce? Shouldn't they have lovers for this?

 Astmeister wrote:
How do skaven reproduce? Shouldn't they have lovers for this?

Skaven lore is basically the same as it was for the Old World save that the Great Horned One is now a full Chaos God.

So until/unless GW changes it as far as we know Skaven females are separated from the broods at birth and raised differently from the males. They are pumped full of warpstone, drugs and basically raised to be breeders. Oversized females that are used to produce litter after litter of skaven. Rights to breed are a high honour and something Skaven lords will fight and compete over. Otherwise the majority of skaven are males, most of which will never see nor get to breed with a female in their lives. The females are said to be generally of feral intelligence and drugged up enough that they basically lay there feeding their brood or being bred.

However there are some hints that the females might not be quite as dim as the males think and that some of the older warrens might harbour females who have formed small bands who hide their intelligence and work toward their own goals. However this is a story path we've yet to see developed in any great detail. At present most of the references to females are more akin to breeding stock.


It's an area that could one day be explored if a notable female were to rise up or the machinations of the females were to be revealed. Suffice to say I don't think we'll see a female skaven rank and file troop. At best we might get one very notable and exceptional breeder who goes to war; but she'd be (I guess) at least brood horror size or bigger.


Of course there is argument that the females could raise some warriors of their own gender in secret and that without the drugs, warpstone and such the females might be expected to develop physically similar to the males. However this is very much into uncharted territories. But considering all the flesh melding and warpstone that Skaven work with nothing is beyond impossible for them in that regard.

 Astmeister wrote:
2 Knights on one large base = count as Demigriph Knights?

I mean I'd be cool with it. It would be an awesome conversion!

Also it seems the Freeguild was removed from the Warscroll builder. Which means there are only the cities now, which is fine I guess...man I still can't decide what city to play as. After going through my Empire Heraldry book I can say that I will be painting my troops using Nordland colours.

I didn’t realise Skaven females were so massive. Now the mechanics of it stagger me.

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:
2 Knights on one large base = count as Demigriph Knights?

I mean I'd be cool with it. It would be an awesome conversion!

Also it seems the Freeguild was removed from the Warscroll builder. Which means there are only the cities now, which is fine I guess...man I still can't decide what city to play as. After going through my Empire Heraldry book I can say that I will be painting my troops using Nordland colours.

Same. I like to go along with the lore, but the cities don't quite have the same draw as the old Karaks and "lands'' of the Empire.

I do like the freedom I have to really build a unique homebrew city and have it fit in the lore. AoS is extremely homebrew friendly next to WHFB.

 Overread wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:
How do skaven reproduce? Shouldn't they have lovers for this?

Skaven lore is basically the same as it was for the Old World save that the Great Horned One is now a full Chaos God.

So until/unless GW changes it as far as we know Skaven females are separated from the broods at birth and raised differently from the males. They are pumped full of warpstone, drugs and basically raised to be breeders. Oversized females that are used to produce litter after litter of skaven. Rights to breed are a high honour and something Skaven lords will fight and compete over. Otherwise the majority of skaven are males, most of which will never see nor get to breed with a female in their lives. The females are said to be generally of feral intelligence and drugged up enough that they basically lay there feeding their brood or being bred.

However there are some hints that the females might not be quite as dim as the males think and that some of the older warrens might harbour females who have formed small bands who hide their intelligence and work toward their own goals. However this is a story path we've yet to see developed in any great detail. At present most of the references to females are more akin to breeding stock.

So basically what happens if you give naked mole rats meth.
Doesn't that mean though that about 90% of all Skaven are close relatives to each other, if they have the same father? Their gene pool must be terrible...which probably explains a lot, actually.

It does sound like they initially had fairly normal,rat-like breeding method, and then their elites/grey seers/whoever forced the breeder-caste system on them, which can't be healthy for the species. Of course, as they are creatures of chaos, if you somehow isolated some breeding pairs, and left them running, you'd probably end up with some other abomination instead of a healthy society anyway.

Cronch wrote:
It does sound like they initially had fairly normal,rat-like breeding method, and then their elites/grey seers/whoever forced the breeder-caste system on them, which can't be healthy for the species. Of course, as they are creatures of chaos, if you somehow isolated some breeding pairs, and left them running, you'd probably end up with some other abomination instead of a healthy society anyway.

Eh, it depends how you want to write it.
You can either go for a nature vs nurture thing, where the skaven's natural method of reproduction was perverted by the guys in charge

Or you can go for the "nature is horrible and weird route" and...well, just copy Naked Mole Rats, because Skaven pretty much breed like them already.
Except in a Naked Mole Rat colony the queen is in charge, and apparently she produces a pheromone that makes the other female rats in the colony sterile (whatever the cause, the female rats have undeveloped ovaries, even in adulthood. Until they are separated from the colony for an extended period of time, that is), thereby giving her a monopoly of over reproduction. Oh, there's also incest. Lots and lots of incest. Nature is weird.

I am pretty sure the mutation rate of Skaven is so high that no amount of inbreeding could reduce the genetic variation enough to have an impact. Also considering different 'colonies' would be continually taking over/getting taken over by others that would mix up the breeders considerably. Not to mention the turnover rate of individuals with breeding rights would be extremely high.

Anyone came up with interesting free cities builds? I was thinking of an ‘imperial guard’ list full of guns and steam tanks.

I'm tickling around a crazed Pirates build...


Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Anvilgard (Illicit Dealings: Dabbling in Sorcery)
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Black Ark Fleetmaster (60)
- General
- Trait: Blackfang Crimelord
- Artefact: Drakescale Cloak
Assassin (80)
- Artefact: Thermalrider Cloak
Assassin (80)
Sorceress (90)
- Spell: Lore of Dark Sorcerey - Sap Strength (Anvilgard Wizard)
- City Role: General's Adjutant (Must be 6 wounds or less)
Assassin (80)

Battleline
20 x Black Ark Corsairs (160)
- Vicious Blade & Repeater Handbow
20 x Black Ark Corsairs (160)
- Vicious Blade & Repeater Handbow
40 x Black Ark Corsairs (280)
- Vicious Blade & Wicked Cutlass
Kharibdyss (170)
- Drakeblood Curse: Fell Gaze (Anvilgard)
Kharibdyss (170)
- Drakeblood Curse: Jutting Bones (Anvilgard)

Units
5 x Dark Riders (110)
5 x Dark Riders (110)
10 x Drakespawn Knights (340)
10 x Shadow Warriors (110)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 179

So as ridiculous as all that seems, it allows for the Dark Riders and Kharibdyss to be suuuuuuuuuper obnoxious about Bravery. The Fell Gaze one is something like a -3 to Bravery by itself.

Well I've gone through the book in detail now, less enthused than before. I found the short stories didn't add much and would have preferred more fluff on units/cities instead. Rules may have been simplified & standardized but effectiveness is all over the place. Combined with similar roles will push probably half the battletome into 'theme only' territory. The cities themselves are not well balanced either, Hallowheart is busted and will be the tourney favorite, while Phoenicium, Anvilguard, and Tempest's Eye are lackluster.

I think in external balance Free Cities isn't terrible, but the internal balance is among the worst AoS has seen. It seems to rely on certain cities/battleline-ifs making units viable in certain builds without understanding that people rarely take lists to make bad units viable when they can make good units better.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Sorceress (90)
- Spell: Lore of Dark Sorcerey - Sap Strength (Anvilgard Wizard)
- City Role: General's Adjutant (Must be 6 wounds or less)

My opinion:

Sorceress with Sap Strength feels a bit like a waste since she already has her own version with damage and can only cast 1 spell a turn. I would take either of the other 2 spells. Yes they are close range but she's going to be connected to your Fleetmaster who is already a melee Hero and wants to be close to the Corsair blob for the +1 attack in melee.

Also you could slot in a Scourge Runner Chariot (which are pretty good now) and take the Battalion and get a nice +1 to wound against Monsters for the majority of the army.

BomBomHotdog wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Sorceress (90)
- Spell: Lore of Dark Sorcerey - Sap Strength (Anvilgard Wizard)
- City Role: General's Adjutant (Must be 6 wounds or less)

My opinion:

Sorceress with Sap Strength feels a bit like a waste since she already has her own version with damage and can only cast 1 spell a turn. I would take either of the other 2 spells. Yes they are close range but she's going to be connected to your Fleetmaster who is already a melee Hero and wants to be close to the Corsair blob for the +1 attack in melee.

Yeah, the Sorceress with Sap Strength isn't great--I was just clicking a spell to click a spell.

Also you could slot in a Scourge Runner Chariot (which are pretty good now) and take the Battalion and get a nice +1 to wound against Monsters for the majority of the army.

Frankly, if I were going to bring Scourgerunners?

I'd just run the SC Anvilgard Battalion.
Fleetmaster, Corsairs, Kharibdyss, Chariot--within 12" of the Fleetmaster, +1 to Charge Rolls.

Does it have a matched play point cost?

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Does it have a matched play point cost?

Nope, but I don't really mess about too much with tourneys or the like.

Plus if someone has a problem with 4 items getting a benefit that doesn't scale, that's on them IMO.

I mean giving oneself a free battalion wouldn't go over well, and assigning a point cost is oneself extremely YMMV for the community, thus the question. I should've just asked "point cost" rather than adding "matched play" in there since that doesn't mean anything, derp.

The thing that annoys me the most in the Cities of Sigmar battletome is that all the cities are Aqshy/Ghyran located. I understand why, because it is the realms that are the most explored, but it's a bit sad we dont even have Lethis in here (the city in Forbidden Power that is in Shyish - faction rules in that book make it impossible to play with cities of Sigmar units).

Thankfully, the core rules are actually easy to tinker with and make fanrules allowing you to build a real homebrew city faction. I'm thinking about it right now. It would be perfect for narrative play.

Lethis and Excelsius seem like glaring omissions to me. I hope they will utilize White Dwarf and/or campaign supplements to add more Free Cities in the future.

Yes, I believe White Dwarf is one of the most likely to give rules for other cities. Maybe also the General Handbook in its narrative section.

Since they allowed customisation in 40k with Space Marines chapters and soon Craftworlds, I can only dream about how the Cities of Sigmar battletome would have been with a similar system, like :

- Pick the realm where your city is located
- Pick two traits from a set of generic traits that fit your city's characterization
- Have a command ability from the set you've chosen
- (optional) Pick a "negative" trait of your city that restrict some of your choices (and allowing you to pick one additionnal trait), like not having dispossessed in your army and so on
- Have generic command traits/artifacts tables following the traits you've taken
- Have access to spells according to the realm from where your city is from (like additionnal spells from the Malefice extension when you play in specific realms - if you look closely, the spells from battlemages are actually the ones when you play a battle in a realm from the core rules)
- Enjoy !

 Sarouan wrote:
The thing that annoys me the most in the Cities of Sigmar battletome is that all the cities are Aqshy/Ghyran located. I understand why, because it is the realms that are the most explored, but it's a bit sad we dont even have Lethis in here (the city in Forbidden Power that is in Shyish - faction rules in that book make it impossible to play with cities of Sigmar units).

Thankfully, the core rules are actually easy to tinker with and make fanrules allowing you to build a real homebrew city faction. I'm thinking about it right now. It would be perfect for narrative play.

Books can only be so big. With the number of units and the target size of the battletomes, the number of cities they could add was probably limited and they chose the best known ones. As noted above, it does leave the opportunity for future 'Tome Celestial' articles in White Dwarf.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Well I've gone through the book in detail now, less enthused than before. I found the short stories didn't add much and would have preferred more fluff on units/cities instead. Rules may have been simplified & standardized but effectiveness is all over the place. Combined with similar roles will push probably half the battletome into 'theme only' territory. The cities themselves are not well balanced either, Hallowheart is busted and will be the tourney favorite, while Phoenicium, Anvilguard, and Tempest's Eye are lackluster.

I think in external balance Free Cities isn't terrible, but the internal balance is among the worst AoS has seen. It seems to rely on certain cities/battleline-ifs making units viable in certain builds without understanding that people rarely take lists to make bad units viable when they can make good units better.

It would be amazing, if you do a rating of the units in the book. That would help people like me a lot.
Without any experience it seems to me that the Free guild is good, since they have a lot of synergy and cover a lot of different units types.

I think you can safely expect to see new city rules show up in White Dwarf. After all, the Slaanesh book came out with 3 battalions and a super battalion...WD this month is adding four more!

From what I can see

-Generals have less options, no more using my General model anymore, but gain more range on their Hold the Line ability
-Guard/Greatsword units no longer can counter charge, instead gaining a+1 to charge/run distance when you have a drummer or piper (for when you charge with your handgunners)
-Gone is the repeater Pistol, now being just a bit to help you identify your Outrider in the mass of Pistoliers.
-Speaking of them,When Pistoliers charges now, they get a free shooting action with their pistol, so that'll help soften the opposion a bit.
-Hochland long rifle ignores the look out sir rules- which is damn fine by me.
-More mortals wounds when rolling 6s to wound-Greatswords, handguns and crossbows have that now.
-No Dwarf Warriors, so those got to be proxy as irondrakes or longbeards.
-We got Flagellants, but no Warrior-Priests nor Witch-hunters.
-We got Rockets and volley guns, but no mortars nor canons, nor human engineers.
-Lots of Dark Elves unit, and whatever else was left form the Wood Elf/high Elf line they didn't plug into another alliance.

Handguns and crossbows don't inflict mortal wounds as range units. It's the sisters of the watch from the wanderers who do that.

From the game I've played yesterday, basically, all the units have been buffed up from before - also in points. They deal way more damage as well.

Crossbowmen are certainly one of the units who benefit the most from Hold the Line ability from freeguild general on foot. A unit of 20 look the ideal size, to me. They can saturate quite well with a good range if left alone - stopping melee range units by throwing a cheap shield at them help a lot, if the opponent doesn't have many long range tools to deal with them. I managed to fire 40 attacks at 3+ to hit and 2+ to wound for three turns in a row, it helped to melt the skaven horde with the freeguild guards swordsmen in the front (took a 40 men unit, they managed to hit at 2+ and wound 3+ most of the time - sure, only one attack per model, but they managed to take a lot more of rats with them in the grave). Not too bad for 200 points.

Freeguild general on griffon is clearly made to accompany the demigryph knights. Those are quite tanky now with their 3+ save. With their speed, they can actually block a big part of the enemy army and prevent them from advancing and threatening your range units/objectives. In my game, I used them as a suicidal wave to stop the skaven flank having plague monks, rat ogors and abomination while the center was mainly made of clanrats supported by a screaming bell. They died in the end, of course, but they manage to take down the plague monks and rat ogors with them and seriously slowing down the abomination, that couldn't join the main fight in time before the game ended as Cities of Sigmar victory.

Command Points are even more crucial for Cities of Sigmar, I've found. That's why using generals and adjudants with 6 and lower wounds help. I played Hammerhal that way with no extra CP, and I managed to have at least 2 CP per turn with its banner ability and my adjudant. Helps a lot to keep that Hold the Line every turn and still use other crucial command abilities when needed (though I didn't use the Hammerhal special one when it could have helped a lot, because I stupidly use that reroll wounds rolls of 1 for the charging demigryph knights instead - I admit I simply forgot I could fight a second time with a set unit at the end of the combat phase).

Didn't manage to use my magic as my spells were systematically dispelled, but there is a way to have a unit with -2 hit for all enemy attacks until the next Hero phase in Hammerhal. Can be quite nasty if it's working at the right time.

I feel like the handgunners are better because of the stand and shoot ability. Crossbows obviously have the range, but I don't think CoS generally needs help at long range, whereas an opponent which closes the gap quickly poses more of an issue. Or in other words, crossbows do well against things CoS already does well against. The character-sniping ability of handgunners is also vastly superior.

But not completely sure on the matter. Firing twice sure is nice...

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar - Mortal Realm: Aqshy - City: Hallowheart
LEADERS
Sorceress (90) - General - Command Trait : Veteran of the Blazing Crusade - Artefact : Whitefire Tome - All Spells
Sorceress (90) - Spell : Lore of Whitefire - Elemental Cyclone (Hallowheart Wizard) - Hallowheart 2nd Spell : Warding Brand - City Role : General's Adjutant (Must be 6 wounds or less)
Sorceress on Black Dragon (300) - Witch Rod - Artefact : Ignax's Scales - Spell : Lore of Whitefire - Sear Wounds (Hallowheart Wizard) - Hallowheart 2nd Spell : Crystal Aegis
UNITS
20 x Bleakswords (180) Battleline
20 x Darkshards (200) Battleline
20 x Black Guard (280) Battleline
20 x Executioners (260) Battleline
5 x Drakespawn Knights (170)
5 x Drakespawn Knights (170)
BATTALIONS
Whitefire Retinue (140)
ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS
Emerald Lifeswarm (50)
Extra Command Point (50)
TOTAL: 1980/2000 EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 2 WOUNDS: 124
LEADERS: 3/6 BATTLELINES: 4 (3+) BEHEMOTHS: 1/4 ARTILLERY: 0/4
ARTEFACTS: 2/2 ALLIES: 0/40

Based on my current collection, could easily switch a few things out and add more Sorceresses.

So basically this list is built partially around the Sorceresses being magical artillery with the Black Dragon being the "battery" for the others. For 1 CP you deal d6 MW to the SoBD (which the Artifact can negate on a +4) and then can add that amount to the casting values of the other Sorceresses as long as they are w/in 12". All 3 Sorceresses can kill a model from a unit for a +2 casting and as long as they are w/in 6" of one other they get another +1 casting and unbinding from the Battalion. This equates to a +4 to +9 to casting each turn (SoBD does not get the d6 additional sadly). Artifact for the General gives her access to all the spells from Hallowheart and the SoBD can heal herself d6 wounds with Sear wounds. Lifeswarm is primarily to put slain models back into your "battery" unit while the Command Trait lets them ignore battleshock, mostly as insurance but could easily be switched out for Warden of Flame for the additional CP potential.

Bleakswords are the shield wall for the Blackguard with Darkshards adding ranged attack while being the battery unit for the Sorceresses.Executioners as more heavy hitters. Drakespawn Knights for fast flanking units with the durability to stay stuck in for a turn or two if needed.

Hi all, just a quick question on this, I've not read the book and my opponent in a tourney at the weekend (was the game to see who came first) seemed to have an incredibility OP list.

All his shooting was at +2 to hit and +2 to wound with re-roll 1's. His artillery seems to be able to snipe my hero's ignoring look out sir, he appeared to be able to shoot twice a lot. And he had an overwatch ability at full hit skill for all the units i got into combat. Then he could shoot freely at my units in melee while in the shooting phase, and his CC attacks also seemed to be at a high hit and wound roll as well.

Seems some games he played during the day he tabled people without taking a wound.

I managed to get him almost down as i got into melee quickly (Nighthaunt) but the ridiculous shooting above just wiped me out losing me the game. It left a dirty taste in mine, and everyone he faced, mouths.

I believe he was using the city that's supposed to be good for shooting armies, sorry name escapes me.

What makes it worse is he didn't have a battletomb.... the TO has already stated next event this is a requirement.

Is this level of shooting legit using the new book??

 Rabidweasel wrote:
Hi all, just a quick question on this, I've not read the book and my opponent in a tourney at the weekend (was the game to see who came first) seemed to have an incredibility OP list.

All his shooting was at +2 to hit and +2 to wound with re-roll 1's. His artillery seems to be able to snipe my hero's ignoring look out sir, he appeared to be able to shoot twice a lot. And he had an overwatch ability at full hit skill for all the units i got into combat. Then he could shoot freely at my units in melee while in the shooting phase, and his CC attacks also seemed to be at a high hit and wound roll as well.

Seems some games he played during the day he tabled people without taking a wound.

I managed to get him almost down as i got into melee quickly (Nighthaunt) but the ridiculous shooting above just wiped me out losing me the game. It left a dirty taste in mine, and everyone he faced, mouths.

I believe he was using the city that's supposed to be good for shooting armies, sorry name escapes me.

What makes it worse is he didn't have a battletomb.... the TO has already stated next event this is a requirement.

Is this level of shooting legit using the new book??

You can do stuff like this with the book, yes.

Shoot twice - only in first turn with Artillery and tanks (and Copters) using Greywater fastness list.

+1 hit/wound - easily possible with Freeguild general

Stand and Shoot - Handgunners and Sisters of the watch can do this

reroll 1s - Aura ability for your general from Greywater fastness

further +1 hit - Freeguild handgunners standing still for example

Artillery ignoring look out sir - I dont know about this. Might you mean Longrifles in the Handgunners?

So most of what you're talking about is possible.

In a general sense yes, but without being able to specifically break down the bonuses it's hard to say if he was doing something wrong. My opinion? He was playing fast and loose with the rules and no one called him on it.

He didn’t have the book with him, you say? How was he able to prove any of those things? Sounds like the TO didn’t do his job. Very bad form to let a person win a tournament if they can’t even show up w/the book.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I feel like the handgunners are better because of the stand and shoot ability.

Not really, because crossbows can double their attacks. Saturation is still a bigger deal in AoS.

Shooting when charged is always nice, but I would rather roll 40 dice instead of 20 in my shooting phase while using the synergy with my melee units to make sure my range units can shoot as long as possible.

In theory that's how it works. I am unsure if it will bear out in practice; if you keep the enemy off your shooters that long you probably won regardless of which one you brought. But if things don't go to plan and they hit your shooters early handgunners have a reaction while crossbows just crumble. Any random outflanking unit can charge crossbowmen and hold them up in melee, with handgunners the unit dies. Handgunners can also camp 2" behind your melee, forcing the enemy to eat the stand & shoot in order to charge. And the longrifle to ping wounds off characters is hardly insignificant.

Wether it all outweighs shooting twice I am not sure, but if I had to pick one it would be handgunners.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
In theory that's how it works. I am unsure if it will bear out in practice; if you keep the enemy off your shooters that long you probably won regardless of which one you brought. But if things don't go to plan and they hit your shooters early handgunners have a reaction while crossbows just crumble. Any random outflanking unit can charge crossbowmen and hold them up in melee, with handgunners the unit dies. Handgunners can also camp 2" behind your melee, forcing the enemy to eat the stand & shoot in order to charge. And the longrifle to ping wounds off characters is hardly insignificant.

Wether it all outweighs shooting twice I am not sure, but if I had to pick one it would be handgunners.

Yeah, handguns have their own advantages, but honestly, if you're talking about competivity, I believe crossbows are more the way to go to build combos around. After all, even if handguns can "do something" when charged, competitive players would rather focus on what they can do with the army as its whole rather than their individual parts played separately. Especially when you (ab)use command aptitudes, traits, artifacts and faction rules.

I see handguns working as multiple small units rather than big ones. +1 to hit is nice, sure, but it's not like you can't have a boost in that field from other sources in Cities of Sigmar.

Long rifle...they only really work when you have many. That makes them quite incompatible with big units of handguns, IMHO. It's just one attack with -1 save, in the end. 2 damage, sure, but heroes with a good save have a good chance to shrug it off anyway. It's a nice toy, yes, but I think competitive players will look elsewhere for efficiency.

What I mean is range armies often focus on double turn to shoot twice and make maximum damage to their opponent before they can close in. Which is why I believe shooting armies would rather look after the crossbow than the handgun - they know that if the enemy is charging their range units, that means they're close to death anyway.

As you said the +1 to hit is not a huge deal so handgunners below 10-man or pulled into melee do not lose much effectiveness. I am assuming msu of 10-man to maximize the number of long rifles. Three of them can get hit with the freeguild general's command ability then fire off three 2+/2+ long rifle shots at an unlucky wizard from 30" away. Greywater fastness drillmaster trait would let them re-roll hits of 1 as well.

If one runs a gunline and gets the double they don't need help; handgunners, crossbows, darkshards, whatever it doesn't matter when you dump an army's worth of shooting on the enemy twice in a row; they're screwed. But when the double turn doesn't happen, or they hit the line turn 1, or any number of other things go wrong, a flexible army could win where the specialized one would not.

Not to mention without a battalion for the characters & main troops a CoS gunline is unlikely to outdrop the opponent for turn choice the first place.

Might it be good to drop a unit of 30 handgunners via the living city trait near the enemy as an autonomous unit, which is really hard to charge? With this you can pull the enemy army apart and circumvent the low reach of the gunners.

I don't really think handguns as MSU is something we'll see in tournaments on a high level, TBH. First, MSU is indeed the best way to forfeit initiative on first turn. That's basically the way of every army not based on hordes/battalions, and I don't see any really working with handguns in Cities of Sigmar (I don't believe the one from Order Great Alliance book will last for long now, it's a matter of when the next FAQ will drop). On the other hand, just one big unit of crossbowmen works perfectly fine as firepower saturation and can be an easy addition for having a low number of units to place.

Another problem with handguns is their range. 16'' make it easier to avoid on first turn, while 24'' is much harder. Since Hold the Line ! prevents the unit from moving to gain the boost, that's actually a bigger deal with handguns. And it's not a few 30'' long rifles that will really make the opponent afraid, I believe...Look Out Sir ! isn't such a big penalty that any other range unit using saturation can pretty much delete any character they want (crossbows again).

But yeah, I can see myself using handguns for fun. Even though if I really want to toy with my opponents by shooting during his charging phase, I would rather use Sisters of the Watch with a Nomad Prince as anchor. To the last arrow !

 Astmeister wrote:
Might it be good to drop a unit of 30 handgunners via the living city trait near the enemy as an autonomous unit, which is really hard to charge? With this you can pull the enemy army apart and circumvent the low reach of the gunners.

Erm...even if they can shoot during the enemy phase, I would rather keep my handguns behind my main line. After all, if they can keep firing more than one turn, it's much better than using them as a very expensive bait.

Even more when it's actually easy to counter by charging with two units, the first not important to waste their shots and the second finishing them anyway. Their ability only works once per turn and if there isn't another enemy unit within 3'' of them, and since you charge with units one at a time...if they don't shoot the first unit charging, they'll waste their ability since they won't be able to shoot the second unit because of the first being already within 3''.

CoS are pretty much losing initiative choice to any army running a battalion. Once one is losing the initiative choice MSU is the way to go because it does not matter how many more drops you have than the opponent. Being able to put down a few small units while your opponent fully deploys lets you put down more of your army in response to how they have done so. Its a strategy I have utilized before and it works extremely well.

As someone who has utilized jezzails in a competitive setting, I can say with confidence that a few 30" shots pinging wounds of characters/monsters is very much something people are afraid of.

Ultimately what I see is a wealth of factors going for both units, enough that we could go on for ages hashing them all out. Probably better to wait and see at this point; while I feel handgunners have the advantage overall I'm still uncertain and we'll probably have plenty of examples showing up the next few months. Maybe by LVO the meta will have figured out which, if either, has the edge.

 Sarouan wrote:
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Erm...even if they can shoot during the enemy phase, I would rather keep my handguns behind my main line. After all, if they can keep firing more than one turn, it's much better than using them as a very expensive bait.

Even more when it's actually easy to counter by charging with two units, the first not important to waste their shots and the second finishing them anyway. Their ability only works once per turn and if there isn't another enemy unit within 3'' of them, and since you charge with units one at a time...if they don't shoot the first unit charging, they'll waste their ability since they won't be able to shoot the second unit because of the first being already within 3''.

Well you can neglect the enemy alpha strike on the handgunners, when you infiltrate them and circumvent the short reach. So even if you do not put them super close to the enemy this might be worth a consideration.

Is a big block of 30 spears viable now with all the hit bonuses they’re getting? Or is the sword&shield +1 save still too valuable? Halberd seem possibly pretty good now too.

I mean the difference between Freeguild Guard choices are the same as they have ever been. Swordmen have a better save, Halberds have rend and spears have reach (Allowing for more attacks after pile-in).

So really you can make any of them work, it just depends on your strategy.

Spears have the defensive bonus against charging units too.

Gw did a good job with the freeguild guard warscroll; all weapon options are viable and serve slightly different roles.

I’m uncertain how to build them because, yeah, the options all look quite good. The only thing I’d say about the spears is they’re a little contradictory. You want to use them in big squads to make use of the 2” range, but at about 30 men, they’re getting 2+ to-hit already, and their special ability gives yet another +1 to hit if they’re charged. I feel like it should’ve been +1 to wound if they get charged.
The alternative thing I was thinking of was possibly having a unit of 10 swords and a unit of 20 spears behind them so that the enemy is fighting 4+ saves and I get to jab over the shields with 2 rows of spears.

Better to go a 20-man unit of swords with two ranks and a 10-man of spears for the third. Like you said, they don't need the hit buff against charging enemies anyways.

Hmm this is a good point. For Hammerhal I’d possibly do 3x 10man units, not really sure what you’d do with that though. Which would you say is best for running in min sized squads? Go 2x swords and 1x spears and set it up the same as the above?

If you want to take the concept to it's maximum it would be four lines; swords up front (best save for being attacked), halberd (rend), spear (2" range so can swing from the third rank), then finally hangunners (can stand & shoot when the front is charged and shoot normally if it isn't).

The problem being it only really works if they charge you, and do so from the front. So you'll need to decide where on the spectrum you want to be between one big unspecialized unit and max layering MSU.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/age_of_sigmar_cities_of_sigmar_errata_en.pdf

Nothing too big

from the Designers Commentary:

Q: In a Pitched Battle, Kharibdysses, Steam Tanks and War Hydras can be Battleline units in some Cities of Sigmar armies. In such cases, are they still counted as Behemoths as well?
A: No

Wouldn't want to have pesky restrictions after all.

Ugg, still a dumb decision. I mean they can be both can't they?

If they counted as behemoths then they'd be restricted. By making them battleline (which at this point has gotten stupid, there is no point in battleline anymore when so many elite and powerful models are now battleline) they can be spammed as much as you like.

 auticus wrote:
If they counted as behemoths then they'd be restricted. By making them battleline (which at this point has gotten stupid, there is no point in battleline anymore when so many elite and powerful models are now battleline) they can be spammed as much as you like.

There's other restrictions that are in place, however.

Take this list:


"Disgusting", right? See the two "Drakeblood Curses"? That's the cap for you, using the "Blackfang Crimelord" trait to take Dabblings of Sorcery(the chosen trait) and Black Market Bounty(additional artefact of power from the Anvilgard Artefacts of Power).
Oh and see how there's a Dreadlord on Black Dragon and a Scourge Privateer Fleetmaster?

That's because none of the Cities really get stuff that applies to everyone, they're still aura-locked for the most part.

Theoretically, if I really really tried I could make a less silly list...but not by much.

And for the record, this is Anvilgard's Warscroll Battalion, bare minimumed:


Each WSB gives you a Drakeblood Curse...but you cannot repeat Drakeblood Curses. So you're capped at 3, no matter what.

 auticus wrote:
If they counted as behemoths then they'd be restricted. By making them battleline (which at this point has gotten stupid, there is no point in battleline anymore when so many elite and powerful models are now battleline) they can be spammed as much as you like.

Well no, because while most options can be battleline they can never all be battleline. One is still forced to stick to a theme and that's the point.

Right like the all steam tank theme.

I still want to play against that for the narrative element. The core of my faction's invading army tries to overcome the steam tank brigade to take control of the larger battle.

I think as an appendix style list once in a while that would be fun. Having to face that regularly not so much.

(The nuln artillery tank army was an appendix list in 6th ed, and i have played in scenarios with it)

I think using it regularly would get boring pretty quick as well.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think using it regularly would get boring pretty quick as well.

That won't stop people if they're winning though.

All of the behemoth-spam lists out there are inferior to versions of the army that include more conventional units. The massive disadvantage they have on holding objectives serves to counterbalance the combat advantages of behemoths. If that were not the case my opinion would be much different.

I think from a casual stand point they will be lawn mowers. I think from a powergaming tournament standpoint, that you won't see them very often.

Depending on your community will determine how often you see them. A more casual community I think would see more of them regularly simply because they won't be facing top tier filth to counter them.

If everyone is running fully optimal lists I would agree you won't see them very often.

The steam tank isn't really OP, the steam tank commander for just 50 extra points is what's really good.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
The steam tank isn't really OP, the steam tank commander for just 50 extra points is what's really good.

Well that certainly sounds like variations on a theme. On an unrelated note, gonna miss the 60 point superchariots.