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Finally got my book yesterday. From what I saw so far, it looks pretty good.

BomBomHotdog wrote:
On the note of "good" Dark elves, remember that Order doesn't equal "Good." Just look at Deepkin, Daughters, or some of the Stormcast in the fluff. The dark elf factions are self serving and power hungry. The fact that they work with SIgmar and his allies is to further their own ends more-so then to enact any kind of righteousness. In short, the aelves of Ulgu sided with Sigmar out of convince and mutual hatred of Chaos.

Yeah, Warhammer has a very old school approach to alignment, where it's really more about what team you're on, rather than if you are moral or immoral. So you can lie, steal, cheat, break rules, or assassinate all you'd like, but if you do it for Sigmar, you're still Order.

One interesting aspect of the Warhammer universe is that unlike most fantasty worlds, the evil alignments are far more nuanced and interesting. Order is clearly all three Lawful Alignments, including Lawful Evil. Chaos is obviously Chaotic Evil as well as Chaotic Good, although Warhammer Chaos (which is essentially worshipping the chaos gods instead of your proper gods) doesn't completely overlay with D&D Chaos (which is more philosophical or personality aversion to structure, rules, and authority.) A chaos horde might be unruly, but nobody will go far rebelling at every turn. So, you can argue that Chaos will arguably a lot of Neutral or even Lawful evil (I struggle to think of what really separates the morals and ethics of a Dark Elf from a Skaven, or an Undivided Chaos Warrior, and I can't think of it.) Death would probably stretch over big chunks of the alignment chart, with FEC arguably reaching Lawful Good, the Vampires lurking in Evil, and Tomb Kings being one of the most Lawful neutral factions ever. Again, being part of death isn't about morality, but simply if you follow a death god, you are dead. Finally, Destruction has the sharpest claim to true neutral, and would likely share Chaotic Neutral with the goofier parts of Tzeetch/Slaanesh, as well as Beastmen.

I also received the book. It seems like the battalion of Hallowheart is pretty much a no brainer, if you play this city.
Also now that Demigryph knights have a proper damage output, I do not see Greatswords to be necessary any more.

I think its more that Warhammer just flat out doesn't use the DnD morality system.

Furthermore within each faction there's often significant scope for each race to be very varied. Even in the Old World most of the core races could vary a fair bit though some, like orks, were most often shoehorned as the bad-guy in many tales.

AoS I think will go a step further and we'll get much more variety in the stories about factions. Even Chaos is actually appearing quite "nice" in some regions. Your Slaves to Darkness and Wrycry Warbands are closer to wild peoples than they are the full screaming slaving mutants of Chaos. It creates a really neat duel chaos layer whereby you've got pure evil destroy the world on one hand; and on the other wild peoples who are not really out to kill everyone, but they can be rather "wild" and savage,but still come home and hug their kids, pet the dog and feed their family etc... We got a really neat showing of this in the War Queen novella.

I think it makes Chaos far more interesting and its doing a lot more for showing how a whole people could turn to Chaos, not just a handful of half insane people lusting after power.

 Polonius wrote:

BomBomHotdog wrote:
On the note of "good" Dark elves, remember that Order doesn't equal "Good." Just look at Deepkin, Daughters, or some of the Stormcast in the fluff. The dark elf factions are self serving and power hungry. The fact that they work with SIgmar and his allies is to further their own ends more-so then to enact any kind of righteousness. In short, the aelves of Ulgu sided with Sigmar out of convince and mutual hatred of Chaos.

Yeah, Warhammer has a very old school approach to alignment, where it's really more about what team you're on, rather than if you are moral or immoral. So you can lie, steal, cheat, break rules, or assassinate all you'd like, but if you do it for Sigmar, you're still Order.

One interesting aspect of the Warhammer universe is that unlike most fantasty worlds, the evil alignments are far more nuanced and interesting. Order is clearly all three Lawful Alignments, including Lawful Evil. Chaos is obviously Chaotic Evil as well as Chaotic Good, although Warhammer Chaos (which is essentially worshipping the chaos gods instead of your proper gods) doesn't completely overlay with D&D Chaos (which is more philosophical or personality aversion to structure, rules, and authority.) A chaos horde might be unruly, but nobody will go far rebelling at every turn. So, you can argue that Chaos will arguably a lot of Neutral or even Lawful evil (I struggle to think of what really separates the morals and ethics of a Dark Elf from a Skaven, or an Undivided Chaos Warrior, and I can't think of it.) Death would probably stretch over big chunks of the alignment chart, with FEC arguably reaching Lawful Good, the Vampires lurking in Evil, and Tomb Kings being one of the most Lawful neutral factions ever. Again, being part of death isn't about morality, but simply if you follow a death god, you are dead. Finally, Destruction has the sharpest claim to true neutral, and would likely share Chaotic Neutral with the goofier parts of Tzeetch/Slaanesh, as well as Beastmen.

Skaven are wondefully unreedmable and all evil - its lovely to have a race/faction whatever that doesn;t have a good side, they hate everyone, blame everyone else etc - we donlt have "Good" skaven in the world and never should have - nearest you get is occassionally not very bright ones who do as they are told....

Dark Elves, Vampires, Tomb Kings even Chaos can have lovers and friends, families and loyalties - to a Skaven they are ALL compettitors, food, enemies or combination of all three. The Order of the Fly and other Chaos organisations in the lore/novels show a much more interesting side than they began with Khornate warriors screaming for blood.

How do skaven reproduce? Shouldn't they have lovers for this?

 Astmeister wrote:
How do skaven reproduce? Shouldn't they have lovers for this?

Skaven lore is basically the same as it was for the Old World save that the Great Horned One is now a full Chaos God.

So until/unless GW changes it as far as we know Skaven females are separated from the broods at birth and raised differently from the males. They are pumped full of warpstone, drugs and basically raised to be breeders. Oversized females that are used to produce litter after litter of skaven. Rights to breed are a high honour and something Skaven lords will fight and compete over. Otherwise the majority of skaven are males, most of which will never see nor get to breed with a female in their lives. The females are said to be generally of feral intelligence and drugged up enough that they basically lay there feeding their brood or being bred.

However there are some hints that the females might not be quite as dim as the males think and that some of the older warrens might harbour females who have formed small bands who hide their intelligence and work toward their own goals. However this is a story path we've yet to see developed in any great detail. At present most of the references to females are more akin to breeding stock.


It's an area that could one day be explored if a notable female were to rise up or the machinations of the females were to be revealed. Suffice to say I don't think we'll see a female skaven rank and file troop. At best we might get one very notable and exceptional breeder who goes to war; but she'd be (I guess) at least brood horror size or bigger.


Of course there is argument that the females could raise some warriors of their own gender in secret and that without the drugs, warpstone and such the females might be expected to develop physically similar to the males. However this is very much into uncharted territories. But considering all the flesh melding and warpstone that Skaven work with nothing is beyond impossible for them in that regard.

 Astmeister wrote:
2 Knights on one large base = count as Demigriph Knights?

I mean I'd be cool with it. It would be an awesome conversion!

Also it seems the Freeguild was removed from the Warscroll builder. Which means there are only the cities now, which is fine I guess...man I still can't decide what city to play as. After going through my Empire Heraldry book I can say that I will be painting my troops using Nordland colours.

I didn’t realise Skaven females were so massive. Now the mechanics of it stagger me.

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:
2 Knights on one large base = count as Demigriph Knights?

I mean I'd be cool with it. It would be an awesome conversion!

Also it seems the Freeguild was removed from the Warscroll builder. Which means there are only the cities now, which is fine I guess...man I still can't decide what city to play as. After going through my Empire Heraldry book I can say that I will be painting my troops using Nordland colours.

Same. I like to go along with the lore, but the cities don't quite have the same draw as the old Karaks and "lands'' of the Empire.

I do like the freedom I have to really build a unique homebrew city and have it fit in the lore. AoS is extremely homebrew friendly next to WHFB.

 Overread wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:
How do skaven reproduce? Shouldn't they have lovers for this?

Skaven lore is basically the same as it was for the Old World save that the Great Horned One is now a full Chaos God.

So until/unless GW changes it as far as we know Skaven females are separated from the broods at birth and raised differently from the males. They are pumped full of warpstone, drugs and basically raised to be breeders. Oversized females that are used to produce litter after litter of skaven. Rights to breed are a high honour and something Skaven lords will fight and compete over. Otherwise the majority of skaven are males, most of which will never see nor get to breed with a female in their lives. The females are said to be generally of feral intelligence and drugged up enough that they basically lay there feeding their brood or being bred.

However there are some hints that the females might not be quite as dim as the males think and that some of the older warrens might harbour females who have formed small bands who hide their intelligence and work toward their own goals. However this is a story path we've yet to see developed in any great detail. At present most of the references to females are more akin to breeding stock.

So basically what happens if you give naked mole rats meth.
Doesn't that mean though that about 90% of all Skaven are close relatives to each other, if they have the same father? Their gene pool must be terrible...which probably explains a lot, actually.

It does sound like they initially had fairly normal,rat-like breeding method, and then their elites/grey seers/whoever forced the breeder-caste system on them, which can't be healthy for the species. Of course, as they are creatures of chaos, if you somehow isolated some breeding pairs, and left them running, you'd probably end up with some other abomination instead of a healthy society anyway.

Cronch wrote:
It does sound like they initially had fairly normal,rat-like breeding method, and then their elites/grey seers/whoever forced the breeder-caste system on them, which can't be healthy for the species. Of course, as they are creatures of chaos, if you somehow isolated some breeding pairs, and left them running, you'd probably end up with some other abomination instead of a healthy society anyway.

Eh, it depends how you want to write it.
You can either go for a nature vs nurture thing, where the skaven's natural method of reproduction was perverted by the guys in charge

Or you can go for the "nature is horrible and weird route" and...well, just copy Naked Mole Rats, because Skaven pretty much breed like them already.
Except in a Naked Mole Rat colony the queen is in charge, and apparently she produces a pheromone that makes the other female rats in the colony sterile (whatever the cause, the female rats have undeveloped ovaries, even in adulthood. Until they are separated from the colony for an extended period of time, that is), thereby giving her a monopoly of over reproduction. Oh, there's also incest. Lots and lots of incest. Nature is weird.

I am pretty sure the mutation rate of Skaven is so high that no amount of inbreeding could reduce the genetic variation enough to have an impact. Also considering different 'colonies' would be continually taking over/getting taken over by others that would mix up the breeders considerably. Not to mention the turnover rate of individuals with breeding rights would be extremely high.

Anyone came up with interesting free cities builds? I was thinking of an ‘imperial guard’ list full of guns and steam tanks.

I'm tickling around a crazed Pirates build...


Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Anvilgard (Illicit Dealings: Dabbling in Sorcery)
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Black Ark Fleetmaster (60)
- General
- Trait: Blackfang Crimelord
- Artefact: Drakescale Cloak
Assassin (80)
- Artefact: Thermalrider Cloak
Assassin (80)
Sorceress (90)
- Spell: Lore of Dark Sorcerey - Sap Strength (Anvilgard Wizard)
- City Role: General's Adjutant (Must be 6 wounds or less)
Assassin (80)

Battleline
20 x Black Ark Corsairs (160)
- Vicious Blade & Repeater Handbow
20 x Black Ark Corsairs (160)
- Vicious Blade & Repeater Handbow
40 x Black Ark Corsairs (280)
- Vicious Blade & Wicked Cutlass
Kharibdyss (170)
- Drakeblood Curse: Fell Gaze (Anvilgard)
Kharibdyss (170)
- Drakeblood Curse: Jutting Bones (Anvilgard)

Units
5 x Dark Riders (110)
5 x Dark Riders (110)
10 x Drakespawn Knights (340)
10 x Shadow Warriors (110)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 179

So as ridiculous as all that seems, it allows for the Dark Riders and Kharibdyss to be suuuuuuuuuper obnoxious about Bravery. The Fell Gaze one is something like a -3 to Bravery by itself.

Well I've gone through the book in detail now, less enthused than before. I found the short stories didn't add much and would have preferred more fluff on units/cities instead. Rules may have been simplified & standardized but effectiveness is all over the place. Combined with similar roles will push probably half the battletome into 'theme only' territory. The cities themselves are not well balanced either, Hallowheart is busted and will be the tourney favorite, while Phoenicium, Anvilguard, and Tempest's Eye are lackluster.

I think in external balance Free Cities isn't terrible, but the internal balance is among the worst AoS has seen. It seems to rely on certain cities/battleline-ifs making units viable in certain builds without understanding that people rarely take lists to make bad units viable when they can make good units better.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Sorceress (90)
- Spell: Lore of Dark Sorcerey - Sap Strength (Anvilgard Wizard)
- City Role: General's Adjutant (Must be 6 wounds or less)

My opinion:

Sorceress with Sap Strength feels a bit like a waste since she already has her own version with damage and can only cast 1 spell a turn. I would take either of the other 2 spells. Yes they are close range but she's going to be connected to your Fleetmaster who is already a melee Hero and wants to be close to the Corsair blob for the +1 attack in melee.

Also you could slot in a Scourge Runner Chariot (which are pretty good now) and take the Battalion and get a nice +1 to wound against Monsters for the majority of the army.

BomBomHotdog wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Sorceress (90)
- Spell: Lore of Dark Sorcerey - Sap Strength (Anvilgard Wizard)
- City Role: General's Adjutant (Must be 6 wounds or less)

My opinion:

Sorceress with Sap Strength feels a bit like a waste since she already has her own version with damage and can only cast 1 spell a turn. I would take either of the other 2 spells. Yes they are close range but she's going to be connected to your Fleetmaster who is already a melee Hero and wants to be close to the Corsair blob for the +1 attack in melee.

Yeah, the Sorceress with Sap Strength isn't great--I was just clicking a spell to click a spell.

Also you could slot in a Scourge Runner Chariot (which are pretty good now) and take the Battalion and get a nice +1 to wound against Monsters for the majority of the army.

Frankly, if I were going to bring Scourgerunners?

I'd just run the SC Anvilgard Battalion.
Fleetmaster, Corsairs, Kharibdyss, Chariot--within 12" of the Fleetmaster, +1 to Charge Rolls.

Does it have a matched play point cost?

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Does it have a matched play point cost?

Nope, but I don't really mess about too much with tourneys or the like.

Plus if someone has a problem with 4 items getting a benefit that doesn't scale, that's on them IMO.

I mean giving oneself a free battalion wouldn't go over well, and assigning a point cost is oneself extremely YMMV for the community, thus the question. I should've just asked "point cost" rather than adding "matched play" in there since that doesn't mean anything, derp.

The thing that annoys me the most in the Cities of Sigmar battletome is that all the cities are Aqshy/Ghyran located. I understand why, because it is the realms that are the most explored, but it's a bit sad we dont even have Lethis in here (the city in Forbidden Power that is in Shyish - faction rules in that book make it impossible to play with cities of Sigmar units).

Thankfully, the core rules are actually easy to tinker with and make fanrules allowing you to build a real homebrew city faction. I'm thinking about it right now. It would be perfect for narrative play.

Lethis and Excelsius seem like glaring omissions to me. I hope they will utilize White Dwarf and/or campaign supplements to add more Free Cities in the future.

Yes, I believe White Dwarf is one of the most likely to give rules for other cities. Maybe also the General Handbook in its narrative section.

Since they allowed customisation in 40k with Space Marines chapters and soon Craftworlds, I can only dream about how the Cities of Sigmar battletome would have been with a similar system, like :

- Pick the realm where your city is located
- Pick two traits from a set of generic traits that fit your city's characterization
- Have a command ability from the set you've chosen
- (optional) Pick a "negative" trait of your city that restrict some of your choices (and allowing you to pick one additionnal trait), like not having dispossessed in your army and so on
- Have generic command traits/artifacts tables following the traits you've taken
- Have access to spells according to the realm from where your city is from (like additionnal spells from the Malefice extension when you play in specific realms - if you look closely, the spells from battlemages are actually the ones when you play a battle in a realm from the core rules)
- Enjoy !

 Sarouan wrote:
The thing that annoys me the most in the Cities of Sigmar battletome is that all the cities are Aqshy/Ghyran located. I understand why, because it is the realms that are the most explored, but it's a bit sad we dont even have Lethis in here (the city in Forbidden Power that is in Shyish - faction rules in that book make it impossible to play with cities of Sigmar units).

Thankfully, the core rules are actually easy to tinker with and make fanrules allowing you to build a real homebrew city faction. I'm thinking about it right now. It would be perfect for narrative play.

Books can only be so big. With the number of units and the target size of the battletomes, the number of cities they could add was probably limited and they chose the best known ones. As noted above, it does leave the opportunity for future 'Tome Celestial' articles in White Dwarf.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Well I've gone through the book in detail now, less enthused than before. I found the short stories didn't add much and would have preferred more fluff on units/cities instead. Rules may have been simplified & standardized but effectiveness is all over the place. Combined with similar roles will push probably half the battletome into 'theme only' territory. The cities themselves are not well balanced either, Hallowheart is busted and will be the tourney favorite, while Phoenicium, Anvilguard, and Tempest's Eye are lackluster.

I think in external balance Free Cities isn't terrible, but the internal balance is among the worst AoS has seen. It seems to rely on certain cities/battleline-ifs making units viable in certain builds without understanding that people rarely take lists to make bad units viable when they can make good units better.

It would be amazing, if you do a rating of the units in the book. That would help people like me a lot.
Without any experience it seems to me that the Free guild is good, since they have a lot of synergy and cover a lot of different units types.

I think you can safely expect to see new city rules show up in White Dwarf. After all, the Slaanesh book came out with 3 battalions and a super battalion...WD this month is adding four more!

From what I can see

-Generals have less options, no more using my General model anymore, but gain more range on their Hold the Line ability
-Guard/Greatsword units no longer can counter charge, instead gaining a+1 to charge/run distance when you have a drummer or piper (for when you charge with your handgunners)
-Gone is the repeater Pistol, now being just a bit to help you identify your Outrider in the mass of Pistoliers.
-Speaking of them,When Pistoliers charges now, they get a free shooting action with their pistol, so that'll help soften the opposion a bit.
-Hochland long rifle ignores the look out sir rules- which is damn fine by me.
-More mortals wounds when rolling 6s to wound-Greatswords, handguns and crossbows have that now.
-No Dwarf Warriors, so those got to be proxy as irondrakes or longbeards.
-We got Flagellants, but no Warrior-Priests nor Witch-hunters.
-We got Rockets and volley guns, but no mortars nor canons, nor human engineers.
-Lots of Dark Elves unit, and whatever else was left form the Wood Elf/high Elf line they didn't plug into another alliance.