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Handguns and crossbows don't inflict mortal wounds as range units. It's the sisters of the watch from the wanderers who do that.

From the game I've played yesterday, basically, all the units have been buffed up from before - also in points. They deal way more damage as well.

Crossbowmen are certainly one of the units who benefit the most from Hold the Line ability from freeguild general on foot. A unit of 20 look the ideal size, to me. They can saturate quite well with a good range if left alone - stopping melee range units by throwing a cheap shield at them help a lot, if the opponent doesn't have many long range tools to deal with them. I managed to fire 40 attacks at 3+ to hit and 2+ to wound for three turns in a row, it helped to melt the skaven horde with the freeguild guards swordsmen in the front (took a 40 men unit, they managed to hit at 2+ and wound 3+ most of the time - sure, only one attack per model, but they managed to take a lot more of rats with them in the grave). Not too bad for 200 points.

Freeguild general on griffon is clearly made to accompany the demigryph knights. Those are quite tanky now with their 3+ save. With their speed, they can actually block a big part of the enemy army and prevent them from advancing and threatening your range units/objectives. In my game, I used them as a suicidal wave to stop the skaven flank having plague monks, rat ogors and abomination while the center was mainly made of clanrats supported by a screaming bell. They died in the end, of course, but they manage to take down the plague monks and rat ogors with them and seriously slowing down the abomination, that couldn't join the main fight in time before the game ended as Cities of Sigmar victory.

Command Points are even more crucial for Cities of Sigmar, I've found. That's why using generals and adjudants with 6 and lower wounds help. I played Hammerhal that way with no extra CP, and I managed to have at least 2 CP per turn with its banner ability and my adjudant. Helps a lot to keep that Hold the Line every turn and still use other crucial command abilities when needed (though I didn't use the Hammerhal special one when it could have helped a lot, because I stupidly use that reroll wounds rolls of 1 for the charging demigryph knights instead - I admit I simply forgot I could fight a second time with a set unit at the end of the combat phase).

Didn't manage to use my magic as my spells were systematically dispelled, but there is a way to have a unit with -2 hit for all enemy attacks until the next Hero phase in Hammerhal. Can be quite nasty if it's working at the right time.

I feel like the handgunners are better because of the stand and shoot ability. Crossbows obviously have the range, but I don't think CoS generally needs help at long range, whereas an opponent which closes the gap quickly poses more of an issue. Or in other words, crossbows do well against things CoS already does well against. The character-sniping ability of handgunners is also vastly superior.

But not completely sure on the matter. Firing twice sure is nice...

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar - Mortal Realm: Aqshy - City: Hallowheart
LEADERS
Sorceress (90) - General - Command Trait : Veteran of the Blazing Crusade - Artefact : Whitefire Tome - All Spells
Sorceress (90) - Spell : Lore of Whitefire - Elemental Cyclone (Hallowheart Wizard) - Hallowheart 2nd Spell : Warding Brand - City Role : General's Adjutant (Must be 6 wounds or less)
Sorceress on Black Dragon (300) - Witch Rod - Artefact : Ignax's Scales - Spell : Lore of Whitefire - Sear Wounds (Hallowheart Wizard) - Hallowheart 2nd Spell : Crystal Aegis
UNITS
20 x Bleakswords (180) Battleline
20 x Darkshards (200) Battleline
20 x Black Guard (280) Battleline
20 x Executioners (260) Battleline
5 x Drakespawn Knights (170)
5 x Drakespawn Knights (170)
BATTALIONS
Whitefire Retinue (140)
ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS
Emerald Lifeswarm (50)
Extra Command Point (50)
TOTAL: 1980/2000 EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 2 WOUNDS: 124
LEADERS: 3/6 BATTLELINES: 4 (3+) BEHEMOTHS: 1/4 ARTILLERY: 0/4
ARTEFACTS: 2/2 ALLIES: 0/40

Based on my current collection, could easily switch a few things out and add more Sorceresses.

So basically this list is built partially around the Sorceresses being magical artillery with the Black Dragon being the "battery" for the others. For 1 CP you deal d6 MW to the SoBD (which the Artifact can negate on a +4) and then can add that amount to the casting values of the other Sorceresses as long as they are w/in 12". All 3 Sorceresses can kill a model from a unit for a +2 casting and as long as they are w/in 6" of one other they get another +1 casting and unbinding from the Battalion. This equates to a +4 to +9 to casting each turn (SoBD does not get the d6 additional sadly). Artifact for the General gives her access to all the spells from Hallowheart and the SoBD can heal herself d6 wounds with Sear wounds. Lifeswarm is primarily to put slain models back into your "battery" unit while the Command Trait lets them ignore battleshock, mostly as insurance but could easily be switched out for Warden of Flame for the additional CP potential.

Bleakswords are the shield wall for the Blackguard with Darkshards adding ranged attack while being the battery unit for the Sorceresses.Executioners as more heavy hitters. Drakespawn Knights for fast flanking units with the durability to stay stuck in for a turn or two if needed.

Hi all, just a quick question on this, I've not read the book and my opponent in a tourney at the weekend (was the game to see who came first) seemed to have an incredibility OP list.

All his shooting was at +2 to hit and +2 to wound with re-roll 1's. His artillery seems to be able to snipe my hero's ignoring look out sir, he appeared to be able to shoot twice a lot. And he had an overwatch ability at full hit skill for all the units i got into combat. Then he could shoot freely at my units in melee while in the shooting phase, and his CC attacks also seemed to be at a high hit and wound roll as well.

Seems some games he played during the day he tabled people without taking a wound.

I managed to get him almost down as i got into melee quickly (Nighthaunt) but the ridiculous shooting above just wiped me out losing me the game. It left a dirty taste in mine, and everyone he faced, mouths.

I believe he was using the city that's supposed to be good for shooting armies, sorry name escapes me.

What makes it worse is he didn't have a battletomb.... the TO has already stated next event this is a requirement.

Is this level of shooting legit using the new book??

 Rabidweasel wrote:
Hi all, just a quick question on this, I've not read the book and my opponent in a tourney at the weekend (was the game to see who came first) seemed to have an incredibility OP list.

All his shooting was at +2 to hit and +2 to wound with re-roll 1's. His artillery seems to be able to snipe my hero's ignoring look out sir, he appeared to be able to shoot twice a lot. And he had an overwatch ability at full hit skill for all the units i got into combat. Then he could shoot freely at my units in melee while in the shooting phase, and his CC attacks also seemed to be at a high hit and wound roll as well.

Seems some games he played during the day he tabled people without taking a wound.

I managed to get him almost down as i got into melee quickly (Nighthaunt) but the ridiculous shooting above just wiped me out losing me the game. It left a dirty taste in mine, and everyone he faced, mouths.

I believe he was using the city that's supposed to be good for shooting armies, sorry name escapes me.

What makes it worse is he didn't have a battletomb.... the TO has already stated next event this is a requirement.

Is this level of shooting legit using the new book??

You can do stuff like this with the book, yes.

Shoot twice - only in first turn with Artillery and tanks (and Copters) using Greywater fastness list.

+1 hit/wound - easily possible with Freeguild general

Stand and Shoot - Handgunners and Sisters of the watch can do this

reroll 1s - Aura ability for your general from Greywater fastness

further +1 hit - Freeguild handgunners standing still for example

Artillery ignoring look out sir - I dont know about this. Might you mean Longrifles in the Handgunners?

So most of what you're talking about is possible.

In a general sense yes, but without being able to specifically break down the bonuses it's hard to say if he was doing something wrong. My opinion? He was playing fast and loose with the rules and no one called him on it.

He didn’t have the book with him, you say? How was he able to prove any of those things? Sounds like the TO didn’t do his job. Very bad form to let a person win a tournament if they can’t even show up w/the book.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I feel like the handgunners are better because of the stand and shoot ability.

Not really, because crossbows can double their attacks. Saturation is still a bigger deal in AoS.

Shooting when charged is always nice, but I would rather roll 40 dice instead of 20 in my shooting phase while using the synergy with my melee units to make sure my range units can shoot as long as possible.

In theory that's how it works. I am unsure if it will bear out in practice; if you keep the enemy off your shooters that long you probably won regardless of which one you brought. But if things don't go to plan and they hit your shooters early handgunners have a reaction while crossbows just crumble. Any random outflanking unit can charge crossbowmen and hold them up in melee, with handgunners the unit dies. Handgunners can also camp 2" behind your melee, forcing the enemy to eat the stand & shoot in order to charge. And the longrifle to ping wounds off characters is hardly insignificant.

Wether it all outweighs shooting twice I am not sure, but if I had to pick one it would be handgunners.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
In theory that's how it works. I am unsure if it will bear out in practice; if you keep the enemy off your shooters that long you probably won regardless of which one you brought. But if things don't go to plan and they hit your shooters early handgunners have a reaction while crossbows just crumble. Any random outflanking unit can charge crossbowmen and hold them up in melee, with handgunners the unit dies. Handgunners can also camp 2" behind your melee, forcing the enemy to eat the stand & shoot in order to charge. And the longrifle to ping wounds off characters is hardly insignificant.

Wether it all outweighs shooting twice I am not sure, but if I had to pick one it would be handgunners.

Yeah, handguns have their own advantages, but honestly, if you're talking about competivity, I believe crossbows are more the way to go to build combos around. After all, even if handguns can "do something" when charged, competitive players would rather focus on what they can do with the army as its whole rather than their individual parts played separately. Especially when you (ab)use command aptitudes, traits, artifacts and faction rules.

I see handguns working as multiple small units rather than big ones. +1 to hit is nice, sure, but it's not like you can't have a boost in that field from other sources in Cities of Sigmar.

Long rifle...they only really work when you have many. That makes them quite incompatible with big units of handguns, IMHO. It's just one attack with -1 save, in the end. 2 damage, sure, but heroes with a good save have a good chance to shrug it off anyway. It's a nice toy, yes, but I think competitive players will look elsewhere for efficiency.

What I mean is range armies often focus on double turn to shoot twice and make maximum damage to their opponent before they can close in. Which is why I believe shooting armies would rather look after the crossbow than the handgun - they know that if the enemy is charging their range units, that means they're close to death anyway.

As you said the +1 to hit is not a huge deal so handgunners below 10-man or pulled into melee do not lose much effectiveness. I am assuming msu of 10-man to maximize the number of long rifles. Three of them can get hit with the freeguild general's command ability then fire off three 2+/2+ long rifle shots at an unlucky wizard from 30" away. Greywater fastness drillmaster trait would let them re-roll hits of 1 as well.

If one runs a gunline and gets the double they don't need help; handgunners, crossbows, darkshards, whatever it doesn't matter when you dump an army's worth of shooting on the enemy twice in a row; they're screwed. But when the double turn doesn't happen, or they hit the line turn 1, or any number of other things go wrong, a flexible army could win where the specialized one would not.

Not to mention without a battalion for the characters & main troops a CoS gunline is unlikely to outdrop the opponent for turn choice the first place.

Might it be good to drop a unit of 30 handgunners via the living city trait near the enemy as an autonomous unit, which is really hard to charge? With this you can pull the enemy army apart and circumvent the low reach of the gunners.

I don't really think handguns as MSU is something we'll see in tournaments on a high level, TBH. First, MSU is indeed the best way to forfeit initiative on first turn. That's basically the way of every army not based on hordes/battalions, and I don't see any really working with handguns in Cities of Sigmar (I don't believe the one from Order Great Alliance book will last for long now, it's a matter of when the next FAQ will drop). On the other hand, just one big unit of crossbowmen works perfectly fine as firepower saturation and can be an easy addition for having a low number of units to place.

Another problem with handguns is their range. 16'' make it easier to avoid on first turn, while 24'' is much harder. Since Hold the Line ! prevents the unit from moving to gain the boost, that's actually a bigger deal with handguns. And it's not a few 30'' long rifles that will really make the opponent afraid, I believe...Look Out Sir ! isn't such a big penalty that any other range unit using saturation can pretty much delete any character they want (crossbows again).

But yeah, I can see myself using handguns for fun. Even though if I really want to toy with my opponents by shooting during his charging phase, I would rather use Sisters of the Watch with a Nomad Prince as anchor. To the last arrow !

 Astmeister wrote:
Might it be good to drop a unit of 30 handgunners via the living city trait near the enemy as an autonomous unit, which is really hard to charge? With this you can pull the enemy army apart and circumvent the low reach of the gunners.

Erm...even if they can shoot during the enemy phase, I would rather keep my handguns behind my main line. After all, if they can keep firing more than one turn, it's much better than using them as a very expensive bait.

Even more when it's actually easy to counter by charging with two units, the first not important to waste their shots and the second finishing them anyway. Their ability only works once per turn and if there isn't another enemy unit within 3'' of them, and since you charge with units one at a time...if they don't shoot the first unit charging, they'll waste their ability since they won't be able to shoot the second unit because of the first being already within 3''.

CoS are pretty much losing initiative choice to any army running a battalion. Once one is losing the initiative choice MSU is the way to go because it does not matter how many more drops you have than the opponent. Being able to put down a few small units while your opponent fully deploys lets you put down more of your army in response to how they have done so. Its a strategy I have utilized before and it works extremely well.

As someone who has utilized jezzails in a competitive setting, I can say with confidence that a few 30" shots pinging wounds of characters/monsters is very much something people are afraid of.

Ultimately what I see is a wealth of factors going for both units, enough that we could go on for ages hashing them all out. Probably better to wait and see at this point; while I feel handgunners have the advantage overall I'm still uncertain and we'll probably have plenty of examples showing up the next few months. Maybe by LVO the meta will have figured out which, if either, has the edge.

 Sarouan wrote:
I

Erm...even if they can shoot during the enemy phase, I would rather keep my handguns behind my main line. After all, if they can keep firing more than one turn, it's much better than using them as a very expensive bait.

Even more when it's actually easy to counter by charging with two units, the first not important to waste their shots and the second finishing them anyway. Their ability only works once per turn and if there isn't another enemy unit within 3'' of them, and since you charge with units one at a time...if they don't shoot the first unit charging, they'll waste their ability since they won't be able to shoot the second unit because of the first being already within 3''.

Well you can neglect the enemy alpha strike on the handgunners, when you infiltrate them and circumvent the short reach. So even if you do not put them super close to the enemy this might be worth a consideration.

Is a big block of 30 spears viable now with all the hit bonuses they’re getting? Or is the sword&shield +1 save still too valuable? Halberd seem possibly pretty good now too.

I mean the difference between Freeguild Guard choices are the same as they have ever been. Swordmen have a better save, Halberds have rend and spears have reach (Allowing for more attacks after pile-in).

So really you can make any of them work, it just depends on your strategy.

Spears have the defensive bonus against charging units too.

Gw did a good job with the freeguild guard warscroll; all weapon options are viable and serve slightly different roles.

I’m uncertain how to build them because, yeah, the options all look quite good. The only thing I’d say about the spears is they’re a little contradictory. You want to use them in big squads to make use of the 2” range, but at about 30 men, they’re getting 2+ to-hit already, and their special ability gives yet another +1 to hit if they’re charged. I feel like it should’ve been +1 to wound if they get charged.
The alternative thing I was thinking of was possibly having a unit of 10 swords and a unit of 20 spears behind them so that the enemy is fighting 4+ saves and I get to jab over the shields with 2 rows of spears.

Better to go a 20-man unit of swords with two ranks and a 10-man of spears for the third. Like you said, they don't need the hit buff against charging enemies anyways.

Hmm this is a good point. For Hammerhal I’d possibly do 3x 10man units, not really sure what you’d do with that though. Which would you say is best for running in min sized squads? Go 2x swords and 1x spears and set it up the same as the above?

If you want to take the concept to it's maximum it would be four lines; swords up front (best save for being attacked), halberd (rend), spear (2" range so can swing from the third rank), then finally hangunners (can stand & shoot when the front is charged and shoot normally if it isn't).

The problem being it only really works if they charge you, and do so from the front. So you'll need to decide where on the spectrum you want to be between one big unspecialized unit and max layering MSU.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/age_of_sigmar_cities_of_sigmar_errata_en.pdf

Nothing too big

from the Designers Commentary:

Q: In a Pitched Battle, Kharibdysses, Steam Tanks and War Hydras can be Battleline units in some Cities of Sigmar armies. In such cases, are they still counted as Behemoths as well?
A: No

Wouldn't want to have pesky restrictions after all.

Ugg, still a dumb decision. I mean they can be both can't they?

If they counted as behemoths then they'd be restricted. By making them battleline (which at this point has gotten stupid, there is no point in battleline anymore when so many elite and powerful models are now battleline) they can be spammed as much as you like.

 auticus wrote:
If they counted as behemoths then they'd be restricted. By making them battleline (which at this point has gotten stupid, there is no point in battleline anymore when so many elite and powerful models are now battleline) they can be spammed as much as you like.

There's other restrictions that are in place, however.

Take this list:


"Disgusting", right? See the two "Drakeblood Curses"? That's the cap for you, using the "Blackfang Crimelord" trait to take Dabblings of Sorcery(the chosen trait) and Black Market Bounty(additional artefact of power from the Anvilgard Artefacts of Power).
Oh and see how there's a Dreadlord on Black Dragon and a Scourge Privateer Fleetmaster?

That's because none of the Cities really get stuff that applies to everyone, they're still aura-locked for the most part.

Theoretically, if I really really tried I could make a less silly list...but not by much.

And for the record, this is Anvilgard's Warscroll Battalion, bare minimumed:


Each WSB gives you a Drakeblood Curse...but you cannot repeat Drakeblood Curses. So you're capped at 3, no matter what.

 auticus wrote:
If they counted as behemoths then they'd be restricted. By making them battleline (which at this point has gotten stupid, there is no point in battleline anymore when so many elite and powerful models are now battleline) they can be spammed as much as you like.

Well no, because while most options can be battleline they can never all be battleline. One is still forced to stick to a theme and that's the point.

Right like the all steam tank theme.