Kayback wrote: Besides maybe the Grey Knights which SM chapter is closest to the Inquisition?
I'm wanting to make a super Deathwatch heavy army. I am unlikely to every play it again but I want some sort of lore to look into to see how I could maybe go about it
Sadly, GW retconned the Deathwatch having any connection with the Ordo Xenos.
The Exorcists are Grey Knight "Successors" and are basically a SM chapter controlled by the Inquisition proper (as opposed to the usual Astartes autonomy). The Red Hunters are also strongly aligned with the Inquisition, bearing the Inquisitorial seal, and are basically a pocket Space Marine chapter of the Inquisition, even if "on paper" they should be independent.
BaconCatBug wrote: Sadly, GW retconned the Deathwatch having any connection with the Ordo Xenos.
.
Wait what?
When? I've only just picked up a DW kill team box that I was planning on using for parts to sprinkle over my squad leaders. They're full of Inquisition insignia.
I mean I knew my SOB, GK Witch-hunter/Daemonhunter Codex from... 3rd? we're out of date but I didn't think they were that bad .
Guess I'm just gonna have to roll with "rule of cool"
'The Ordo Xenos is the arm of the
Inquisition tasked with defeating the alien
in all its forms, and as such it is counted
amongst the Deathwatch’s foremost allies.
The two organisations frequently work
side by side, both on the battlefield and
in the strategium. There have been times
when a watch fortress’ commander has
been not a Space Marine, but a Lord
Inquisitor – and conversely times when
the esoteric forces of the Inquisition
have been led by a battle-brother of
the Deathwatch.' pg.8
'The icon of the Deathwatch is worn
proudly by all Deathwatch battlebrothers
upon their left shoulder
guard. The stylized letter ‘I’ in this
icon indicates their close ties to the
Ordo Xenos of the Inquisition.' pg.12
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: What exactly causes the use of Psyker powers to corrupt and sometimes mutate their user into an unrecognizable being from one's former self?
And isn't it a false dichotomy that psyker powers = becoming a dangerous corrupted and mutated being?
When you tap into the Warp, not only are you opening a barn door the size of a small moon for Daemons to possess you, it's also like lighting the barn on fire as a signal light. The warp is a reflection of all soul bearing entities, and the corruption of the Warp leads to daemons being birthed, who want nothing more than to find a breach into the Materium to wreak havock.
And it's not a false dichotomy, it's a very, very true one. When you expose yourself to the warp, it's a matter of WHEN, not if. To not be possessed and/or corrupted requires esoteric technology (Ghosthelms, Aegis Wards), genetic enhancement/predisposition (Farseers, Navigators, Grey Knights) and an absolutely resolute will, the kind that very few (especially humans) will possess. There is a good reason why Librarians wear psychic hoods, why Farseers take great pains to train, and why the Commissar always has a bolt pistol at the ready while near Sanctioned Psykers.
Navigators are often said to be limited on how long they can work before they burn out - either by possession resulting in their termination; or their minds being tormented so far that they cannot continue to perform their task.
Also don't forget the warp isn't just used for powers, its also used for space travel by the Imperium. Geller fields are the only barrier that prevents the warp swarming all over their ships. A damaged field can easily let demons in to run riot and steal the ships crew and ship. Of course the Geller field only keeps demons out; it doesn't expel them, so if you've got someone on board who is already possessed it won't stop them.
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: What exactly causes the use of Psyker powers to corrupt and sometimes mutate their user into an unrecognizable being from one's former self?
And isn't it a false dichotomy that psyker powers = becoming a dangerous corrupted and mutated being?
When you tap into the Warp, not only are you opening a barn door the size of a small moon for Daemons to possess you, it's also like lighting the barn on fire as a signal light. The warp is a reflection of all soul bearing entities, and the corruption of the Warp leads to daemons being birthed, who want nothing more than to find a breach into the Materium to wreak havock.
And it's not a false dichotomy, it's a very, very true one. When you expose yourself to the warp, it's a matter of WHEN, not if. To not be possessed and/or corrupted requires esoteric technology (Ghosthelms, Aegis Wards), genetic enhancement/predisposition (Farseers, Navigators, Grey Knights) and an absolutely resolute will, the kind that very few (especially humans) will possess. There is a good reason why Librarians wear psychic hoods, why Farseers take great pains to train, and why the Commissar always has a bolt pistol at the ready while near Sanctioned Psykers.
Magnus didn't become possessed. And the Eldar used psyker powers quite successfully as well.
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: What exactly causes the use of Psyker powers to corrupt and sometimes mutate their user into an unrecognizable being from one's former self?
And isn't it a false dichotomy that psyker powers = becoming a dangerous corrupted and mutated being?
When you tap into the Warp, not only are you opening a barn door the size of a small moon for Daemons to possess you, it's also like lighting the barn on fire as a signal light. The warp is a reflection of all soul bearing entities, and the corruption of the Warp leads to daemons being birthed, who want nothing more than to find a breach into the Materium to wreak havock.
And it's not a false dichotomy, it's a very, very true one. When you expose yourself to the warp, it's a matter of WHEN, not if. To not be possessed and/or corrupted requires esoteric technology (Ghosthelms, Aegis Wards), genetic enhancement/predisposition (Farseers, Navigators, Grey Knights) and an absolutely resolute will, the kind that very few (especially humans) will possess. There is a good reason why Librarians wear psychic hoods, why Farseers take great pains to train, and why the Commissar always has a bolt pistol at the ready while near Sanctioned Psykers.
Magnus didn't become possessed. And the Eldar used psyker powers quite successfully as well.
Did you miss the part where I said "To not be possessed and/or corrupted requires esoteric technology (Ghosthelms, Aegis Wards), genetic enhancement/predisposition (Farseers, Navigators, Grey Knights) and an absolutely resolute will, the kind that very few (especially humans) will possess." Both Magus and Farseers have the genetic disposition and resolute will. The last time the Eldar used their Psychic powers willy-nilly, Slaanesh got murderfethed into existence. That's why Farseers and Warlocks have extreme discipline in the use of their powers.
Overread wrote: Navigators are often said to be limited on how long they can work before they burn out - either by possession resulting in their termination; or their minds being tormented so far that they cannot continue to perform their task.
In my head being a navigator for an imperial ship would be like if you were to navigate a submarine by sticking your head out a hole and peering blindly into the sea with a pair of goggles on. And you're sort of looking for a bright light that will lead you home. Also your head is bleeding so you constantly have sharks trying to tear your head off. But it's not sharks it's horrifying daemonic entities. And they'll getcha.
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: What exactly causes the use of Psyker powers to corrupt and sometimes mutate their user into an unrecognizable being from one's former self?
And isn't it a false dichotomy that psyker powers = becoming a dangerous corrupted and mutated being?
When you tap into the Warp, not only are you opening a barn door the size of a small moon for Daemons to possess you, it's also like lighting the barn on fire as a signal light. The warp is a reflection of all soul bearing entities, and the corruption of the Warp leads to daemons being birthed, who want nothing more than to find a breach into the Materium to wreak havock.
And it's not a false dichotomy, it's a very, very true one. When you expose yourself to the warp, it's a matter of WHEN, not if. To not be possessed and/or corrupted requires esoteric technology (Ghosthelms, Aegis Wards), genetic enhancement/predisposition (Farseers, Navigators, Grey Knights) and an absolutely resolute will, the kind that very few (especially humans) will possess. There is a good reason why Librarians wear psychic hoods, why Farseers take great pains to train, and why the Commissar always has a bolt pistol at the ready while near Sanctioned Psykers.
Magnus didn't become possessed. And the Eldar used psyker powers quite successfully as well.
I mean Magnus is now a literal daemon prince who’s soul is owned by a Chaos God. Ok he didn’t technically get ‘possessed’, but that distinction has not a huge amount of practical difference.
And giving the tipping point in Magnus’s story is in part him accepting a power boost from Tzeentch when he was distracted, I think he’s a great example of the problems with using psychic powers to freely...
Yes it is a risk, but one that can be heavily mitigated to the point of being a statistical anomaly with training. Untrained psykers are an open door for Daemons, but trained ones are the equivalent of not only putting a lock on the door, but an active security system too.
Tyran wrote: I wouldn't say it is a matter of when.
Yes it is a risk, but one that can be heavily mitigated to the point of being a statistical anomaly with training. Untrained psykers are an open door for Daemons, but trained ones are the equivalent of not only putting a lock on the door, but an active security system too.
And as anyone who watched The Lockpicking Lawyer and various PenTest Youtube channels will know, locks and security systems are worse than worthless.
Tyran wrote: I wouldn't say it is a matter of when.
Yes it is a risk, but one that can be heavily mitigated to the point of being a statistical anomaly with training. Untrained psykers are an open door for Daemons, but trained ones are the equivalent of not only putting a lock on the door, but an active security system too.
To some extent though that’s because only the ones with the requisite strength of mind get trained in the first place. Most just get killed or fed to the Throne...
Soulbinding and things like psychic hoods also help massively.
Tyran wrote: I wouldn't say it is a matter of when.
Yes it is a risk, but one that can be heavily mitigated to the point of being a statistical anomaly with training. Untrained psykers are an open door for Daemons, but trained ones are the equivalent of not only putting a lock on the door, but an active security system too.
This is correct, there are plenty Psykers who use their abilities and don't get possessed. There are many inquisitors who are psykers and all of the Navis Nobilite are psykers. They don't get followed around by a commissar...not that a commissar would have a hope in hell of beating a hostile psyker anyway.
Most of the accidents with trained psykers happen because they are pushed too hard whether it is to survive or by another person. Under normal circumstances they would be totally fine...however when you have a hoard of tyranids coming to tear you to pieces there isn't a lot of choice.
Well, if you have a horde of Tyranids coming to nomnom you, Daemonic possession is actually very unlikely thanks to the Shadow in the Warp.
Of course, in such scenario is not only the Psyker crippled by the Shadow in the Warp, but psychic contact with the Shadow in the Warp can be just as deadly as daemonic possession.
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: Is there any figures on how many transport craft/ fighter craft, etc... Imperial Navy vessels like Dictarors and Nemesis classes can carry?
Several squadrons, but not much more detail than that. Say maybe 20 off vessel in a squadron?
Given the size of cruisers at 3km or so, they would likely have a significant shuttle fleet even on standard vessel, let alone carriers. I'd guess the number of light shuttles like the argus would easily be several dozen, plus a number of heavier lifters of "commercial airliner" size bigger for bulk transportation.
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: What exactly causes the use of Psyker powers to corrupt and sometimes mutate their user into an unrecognizable being from one's former self?
And isn't it a false dichotomy that psyker powers = becoming a dangerous corrupted and mutated being?
Control, or the lack thereof.
Remember the hellscape context of 40k.
One day, you’re just a pre-pubescent kid on a world. Life is harsh, opportunities are non-existent. The next day, hormones start kicking in, and your powers manifest for the first time. This could be something as relatively innocuous as being able to lift way more than before when you concentrate. It could be you find people particularly keen to help when you ask them. But then, it could be catastrophic. Maybe you burst into flames, cause your bully to implode etc.
You know nothing about these powers. But they’ll see you run out of town and hunted. Yet...with your powers, you can fight back. Just a little more concentration, and you force your pursuers to turn on each other. You’re able to direct the fire at people and objects etc.
As your powers develop, you become more noticeable in the Warp. This attracts Daemons. You’re running the risk of possession, but have no idea. Maybe it’s just a straight “yoink, it’s my meatsuit now, Dave”. Perhaps it’s a more cunning entity, who feeds you ever greater power whilst claiming to be your best friend.
Either way, you’re now a direct threat to a world. The Daemon can use you as a portal for it and more of its kind to manifest. Depending on your strength, that could be for mere moments before you burn out, or it could become an irreversible planetary breach.
And there’s seemingly zero way for this to be predicted, either in terms of your first manifestation and your actual potential.
If you’re “lucky”, you’ll be identified and shipped off in the Black Ships. There you’ll serve The Emperor, one way or another....
Assuming the Emperor accidentally read telepathically Khor Phaeron's and Erebus' minds and realized they're fullblown Chaos supporters and arranged for them to die suddenly to unknown causes early on in the Great Crusade, would Lorgar have been salvageable as a Loyalist primarch?
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: Assuming the Emperor accidentally read telepathically Khor Phaeron's and Erebus' minds and realized they're fullblown Chaos supporters and arranged for them to die suddenly to unknown causes early on in the Great Crusade, would Lorgar have been salvageable as a Loyalist primarch?
No. Lorgar was inherently flawed at the genetic level, he had a literally biological desire to worship something greater than himself. Same for his Gene-sons. Whether this was due to the machinations of the Chaos Gods, or whether the Emperor planned the entire Heresy from the get-go to cull the Primarchs and Astartes and it just happened too soon, we can't say.
I know a lot of people sometimes say it was way too convenient for each Primarch to just so happen to land on an Inhabited Human world that just so happened to neatly align with their programmed biological predispositions, but that's easily explained by either the Chaos Gods wanting to mess with the Emperor down the road, or the Emperor's last ditch attempt at saving the Primarchs when he couldn't stop them being yeeted, he instead guided them though the warp to the right places.
So based on that, I would say there were three entirely irredeemable Primarchs who would have fallen eventually.
Lorgar, Kurze and Angron.
Without getting stabbed by Chaos magic blade, Horus would have remained loyal. Without finding Laer blade Fulgrim would have stayed loyal. Loyal Horus would snowball into loyal Perturabo and Magnus who would have been just brought to power the Golden Throne while the Emperor fixes Magnus' mistakes. Not believing a Xeno Cabal like a gak-for-brains idiot would have meant loyal Alpharius and Omegon. And Mortarion wouldn't take chances joining Lorgar, Angron and Kurze in some doomed, petty revolt.
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: So based on that, I would say there were three entirely irredeemable Primarchs who would have fallen eventually.
Lorgar, Kurze and Angron.
Without getting stabbed by Chaos magic blade, Horus would have remained loyal. Without finding Laer blade Fulgrim would have stayed loyal. Loyal Horus would snowball into loyal Perturabo and Magnus who would have been just brought to power the Golden Throne while the Emperor fixes Magnus' mistakes. Not believing a Xeno Cabal like a gak-for-brains idiot would have meant loyal Alpharius and Omegon. And Mortarion wouldn't take chances joining Lorgar, Angron and Kurze in some doomed, petty revolt.
I agree with Angron, he was simply a failure on so many levels. That being said, out of all the primarchs he was the only one with a legitimate reason for rebelling against the emperor, the rest were either compelled, tricked, or just petty.
Kurze I disagree, he could have turned out ok if he'd had someone to help him with his visions and also be a bit less rules lawyery.
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: So based on that, I would say there were three entirely irredeemable Primarchs who would have fallen eventually.
Lorgar, Kurze and Angron.
Without getting stabbed by Chaos magic blade, Horus would have remained loyal. Without finding Laer blade Fulgrim would have stayed loyal. Loyal Horus would snowball into loyal Perturabo and Magnus who would have been just brought to power the Golden Throne while the Emperor fixes Magnus' mistakes. Not believing a Xeno Cabal like a gak-for-brains idiot would have meant loyal Alpharius and Omegon. And Mortarion wouldn't take chances joining Lorgar, Angron and Kurze in some doomed, petty revolt.
I agree with Angron, he was simply a failure on so many levels. That being said, out of all the primarchs he was the only one with a legitimate reason for rebelling against the emperor, the rest were either compelled, tricked, or just petty.
Kurze I disagree, he could have turned out ok if he'd had someone to help him with his visions and also be a bit less rules lawyery.
And if I was the Emperor, after the Nails killed Angron, I woulf have gotten rid of the World Eaters by sending them in a suicide mission against a big Waaaagh wave or something like that.
World Eaters were so brutal that I think they honestly were a detriment to the Crusade as a whole.
The World Eaters methods were sound logic (in a twisted sort of way). A planet can't rebel if there is no-one on the planet left to rebel. If you need to kill 1 person to save 2 down the line, the same applies to killing a billion to save 2 billion down the line, same logic as the Night Lords.
But killing planetary populations breeds resentment and disloyalty among subjects. A mad killer gets the respect that mad killers get. Which is none.
Ultramarine approach in making sure the planet is better off than it was before is much more sound and helps preventing rebellions. After all if life is now better with the new government, why risk that and rebel.
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: But killing planetary populations breeds resentment and disloyalty among subjects. A mad killer gets the respect that mad killers get. Which is none.
Ultramarine approach in making sure the planet is better off than it was before is much more sound and helps preventing rebellions. After all if life is now better with the new government, why risk that and rebel.
If you let a population get fat and content, they will feel they no longer need to be compliant (see Kreig pre-apocalypse for example). If you make even the thought of rebellion terrifying, they won't attempt it.
The world from Dead Men Walking was a new hive world, with partially constructed hives, if I remember correctly, so they must be able to construct and populate such cities.
EDIT:Also, Armageddon was totally re-populated following Angron's invasion, so there you go...
Not GW; after all, Armageddon was repopulated after the 1st Battle for Armageddon, to replace the population exposed to Chaos. They managed to ship in enough replacements that 500 years later it was a heavily populated hive world again.
It's been a while since I was completely up to speed with the lore, possibly 3rd or 4th edition. Most contact I've had recently has been the Horus Heresy, some older Black Library books like the Cain or Gaunt series and perusing the 8th rulebook.
I've seen a lot of conversion stuff recently about Chaos corrupted Tau. When did this start happening? Where can I read more about it?
Repopulating isn't that hard. In fact it doesn't even have to be particularly managed, as long as the great crusude era humanity can be said to follow rough commercial endeavours.
All the Imperium has to do is advertise a load of dirt cheap real estate, and people will come themselves.
Nobles will buy up provinces and industries with the intention of expanding or elevating their own standing.
The working classes will buy passage on commercial freighters to start a new life where the grass is greener.
Even if the planet's a shithole, no one can tell that from the poster and they probably can't afford a return journey once they get there. Perhaps give a hab block a familiar name like "Nova-Munda" so it sounds more familiar and homely to people of the planet you want to relocate.
Basically how America was colonised/settled depending on your outlook.
Don't forget humans are one thing the Imperium has in vast abundance to the point that they are almost worthless.
Don't forget hive cities can house billions of people and many of them are living lives basically like a machine - focusing on breeding, eating and working and not much else. If anything over-population is likely a greater risk on many Imperial worlds than underpopulation. So if a bunch of new worlds come up for residence the Imperium can likely ship vast numbers toward them. The main limiter would be food, trade networks and production of infrastructure.
Plus don't forget the Imperium views things in long time-scales. 50 years is as nothing to an Imperium that has lasted 10thousand years.
Kayback wrote: It's been a while since I was completely up to speed with the lore, possibly 3rd or 4th edition. Most contact I've had recently has been the Horus Heresy, some older Black Library books like the Cain or Gaunt series and perusing the 8th rulebook.
I've seen a lot of conversion stuff recently about Chaos corrupted Tau. When did this start happening? Where can I read more about it?
Not so much Chaos Corrupted Tau as in "The Tau finally tried to use the Warp to travel and... then it got worse." If you've ever seen the movie Event Horizon, basically that happened, and all the Tau on the expedition became paranoid xenophobes after having to execute all their auxiliary's because turns out jumping into the warp without a Geller Field is going to give you a bad time.
Kayback wrote: It's been a while since I was completely up to speed with the lore, possibly 3rd or 4th edition. Most contact I've had recently has been the Horus Heresy, some older Black Library books like the Cain or Gaunt series and perusing the 8th rulebook.
I've seen a lot of conversion stuff recently about Chaos corrupted Tau. When did this start happening? Where can I read more about it?
Not so much Chaos Corrupted Tau as in "The Tau finally tried to use the Warp to travel and... then it got worse." If you've ever seen the movie Event Horizon, basically that happened, and all the Tau on the expedition became paranoid xenophobes after having to execute all their auxiliary's because turns out jumping into the warp without a Geller Field is going to give you a bad time.
kirotheavenger wrote: Repopulating isn't that hard. In fact it doesn't even have to be particularly managed, as long as the great crusude era humanity can be said to follow rough commercial endeavours. All the Imperium has to do is advertise a load of dirt cheap real estate, and people will come themselves. Nobles will buy up provinces and industries with the intention of expanding or elevating their own standing. The working classes will buy passage on commercial freighters to start a new life where the grass is greener. Even if the planet's a shithole, no one can tell that from the poster and they probably can't afford a return journey once they get there. Perhaps give a hab block a familiar name like "Nova-Munda" so it sounds more familiar and homely to people of the planet you want to relocate. Basically how America was colonised/settled depending on your outlook.
You don't need planets for that though, any rock will do. Space is the cheapest real state after all. Moon settlements, asteroid mining, orbital and space stations. Planets are not really worth fighting for if you can build that.
Why colonize another world when you can just build another spire? The math is not the same as with America's colonization, because the capabilities and needs are different. And that's why even ten thousands years later, plenty of worlds are nothing more than wild primitive ones with a few thousands to millions in population, while most of humanity is concentrated in the billions to trillions in a (relatively) handful of Hive Worlds. It is much cheaper to build another spire, either on the ground or on space (and honestly on space is cheaper), than to colonize another world.
Moreover, the Great Crusade was operating on a strict timetable, the whole thing lasted a few centuries after all. A world that needs repopulation is a world that is a net drain in the resources of a fledgling and quickly expanding IoM. An IoM that was yet to become the juggernaut that it would be ten millennia later, the Great Crusade needed the human resources of each world it conquered to keep the momentum needed conquer the next one, it couldn't afford getting bogged down repopulating worlds.
Have they given any explanation as to why almost every Xeno outside of Tyranids and a few Necron are humanoid? Head, two eyes, two ears, two arms, two legs.
Kayback wrote: Have they given any explanation as to why almost every Xeno outside of Tyranids and a few Necron are humanoid? Head, two eyes, two ears, two arms, two legs.
offically, thier are plently of non-humanoid xenos races, we just havent seen much of them beyond a few cryptic references in the Deathwatch codexes or one-off fluff pieces.
Also, the Great Crusade was a full on Xenocide, killing everything it came across that wasnt human. the xenos in the galaxy at the moment are largely those that either escaped notice (ie the tau and their client races) or we widespread enough to not be completely wiped out (eldar, orks, etc).
out of universe, its more or less the same reason even modern sci-fi tends to prefer humaniod aliens: its easier for us viewers to understand and relate to humanlike creatures than to Lovecraftian horrors, and less work for the writers to fill in the surrounding background details if they dont have to worry about how having tentacles for arms would affect everything about the ergonomics of every. single. item. they interact with.
Kayback wrote: Have they given any explanation as to why almost every Xeno outside of Tyranids and a few Necron are humanoid? Head, two eyes, two ears, two arms, two legs.
Kayback wrote: Have they given any explanation as to why almost every Xeno outside of Tyranids and a few Necron are humanoid? Head, two eyes, two ears, two arms, two legs.
I've always inferred that that the bipedal species in the galaxy were seeded by the old ones which would explain the similarities.
For the more recent species, such as Tau, convergent evolution seems a reasonable explanation.
The galaxy has a whole lot of non-humanoid aliens, most of them just nameless background filler that don't even have a wiki entry. To see them you kinda just have to read 40k publications and hope to be lucky. No models to sell means no limelight.
One the weirdest to be named is probably Antedil. They're powerful psykers who look like thumbless seven fingered hands and live on gas giants. One of their small space ships is a utility item in the Blackstone Fortress.
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Antedil
How much of cultural rift is there between Ultramarines successors? Assuming Guilliman wanted to reforge the Ultramarines legion, would the Ultramarines successor chapters be culturally cohesive enough to actually manage working as a Legion once more?
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: How much of cultural rift is there between Ultramarines successors? Assuming Guilliman wanted to reforge the Ultramarines legion, would the Ultramarines successor chapters be culturally cohesive enough to actually manage working as a Legion once more?
It depends on the successor - I would guess most Second & Third Founding chapters would be pretty close, with a few exceptions like the Mortifactors. The successors already work together to a certain extent - there's a group of Second Founding ones called the Primogenitors who work together, and the Patriarchs of Ulixis "are renowned for their exceptional bladework and marksmanship, to the point where their Veterans are often seconded to the Honour Guards of the Successor Chapters of the Ultramarines".
Part A: I just want to know if the chaos gods are gonna smite the deserter with spawndom or something or if they'll leave the deserter alone.
Part B: Same thing. I konw they can kill their chaos lord in a mutiny. But can they desert without repercussions from the gods themselves? Hunting parties can be taken care of with skillz. A god smiting you can't.
The thing with the Chaos Gods are that they don't particularly care about the mortal plain. 99% of their time is taken up in 'The Great Game' where they combat each other. It's often and heavily implied that this is the core reason why Chaos doesn't win; because it's Chaos and too internally opposed. On the few occasions they have, in a united manner, turned to the mortal universe they've been triumphant (example: Chaos won the Horus heresy. The imperium was crippled and the Emperor's ideologies of "kill everything not man" lasted to ensure eternal war, thus feeding the Chaos Gods).
To answer your questions. If someone abandons the Gods, it would depend how lucky they are. How important a servant they were. If they left in the moment one of the Gods was paying attention then yes, Spawndom or worse may befall them (Tzeentch might let them go for another day). If not that moment, a daemon may notice and enact the wrath of their patron. If not that moment, it might be another worshipper that steps in. It would really depend on luck, timing of your departure and your own success.
B: Most of the Chaos Gods don't care about their champions in that way. A mutiny would only prove the champion weak and unfit. If they had some favour, their patron may save them at the moment before death (as the Gods have done with Abaddon) or they may resurrect the champion.
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: Which SM Legions were the best at avoiding casualties due to their tactics and strategies?
The easy answers would be Emperor's Children and Ultramarines, just because of their focus on battle plans and group work. EC would be more free-form, relying on other brothers to account for any SNAFUs while executing the battle plan, while the Ultramarines would have redundancies upon redundancies to account for any and all said SNAFUs. One could argue the Raven Guard and White Scars hit and run focus would help minimise casualties too. Maybe the Lunar Wolves too because they were just so sunshine-out-of-butt sparkly amazing and first amongst equals.
This is all pre-Heresy though, once the Horus Humbug kicked off the EC quickly devolved.
The worst would be World Eaters and Death Guard, by far.
Iron Warriors do attrition, but they generally try and keep their own casualties low, they just don't factor in the attrition of the meatshields. Death Guard, even pre-Heresy, were 100% about tanking the hits themselves.
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: Which SM Legions were the best at avoiding casualties due to their tactics and strategies?
If you mean avoiding casualties to their own, then Alpha Legion without a doubt. Avoiding casualties in general, such as collateral damage/civilian casualties, then probably Ultramarines or Word Bearers since they were known for empire building and leaving places in a fairly good condition.
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: Which SM Legions were the best at avoiding casualties due to their tactics and strategies?
If you mean avoiding casualties to their own, then Alpha Legion without a doubt. Avoiding casualties in general, such as collateral damage/civilian casualties, then probably Ultramarines or Word Bearers since they were known for empire building and leaving places in a fairly good condition.
Also in the "underhanded" category, with their terror tactics the Night Lords sometimes didn't have to fight at all to subdue a world. And when they did, they avoided fair fights, so I suppose their own casualties must have been relatively low. Civilian casualties, on the other hand...
Iron Warriors do attrition, but they generally try and keep their own casualties low, they just don't factor in the attrition of the meatshields. Death Guard, even pre-Heresy, were 100% about tanking the hits themselves.
Well at least the DG way is more respectable in that it's the Spacies themselves getting themselves shot at, not some poor conscripted man who was blown to bits as a decoy to figure out where the enemy artillery is. DG would have the courage to go and take on the artillery by themselves.
Iron Warriors do attrition, but they generally try and keep their own casualties low, they just don't factor in the attrition of the meatshields. Death Guard, even pre-Heresy, were 100% about tanking the hits themselves.
Watch ABorderPrince's Iron Warriors video it details the Iron Cage battle and shows their tactical doctrine and how they approach warfare. Also, watch the Death Guard video if you want more info about them but I can't remember exactly if the video talks about their tactical doctrine.
iron Warriors https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYwXD-5Dd_Y Death Guard https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HhTK5OodFQ
Given how Corax has transformed himself into some Warp Daemon Primarch, would he have similar difficulties in remaining in Materium as his Daemon Prince Primarch brethren?
Did Mechanicus like some legions more than the others considering that some legions were well stocked with things such as warships and some legions not so much?
I mean Blood Angels had 120000 Astartes and 300 capital ships and 600 escorts. Meanwhile a larger legion World Eaters had only 60 capital ships, a larger legion Luna Wolves a hundred capital ships and 300 escorts and lighter cruisers, near the BA size Space Wolves 60 capitals and 240 escorts.
Why did Mechanicus give unequal amount of supplies for legions?
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: Did Mechanicus like some legions more than the others considering that some legions were well stocked with things such as warships and some legions not so much?
I mean Blood Angels had 120000 Astartes and 300 capital ships and 600 escorts. Meanwhile a larger legion World Eaters had only 60 capital ships, a larger legion Luna Wolves a hundred capital ships and 300 escorts and lighter cruisers, near the BA size Space Wolves 60 capitals and 240 escorts.
Why did Mechanicus give unequal amount of supplies for legions?
What's the point of giving World Eaters capital ships when they'll just waste them with attrition tactics. Also with Horus as Warmaster, Horus's favourites got special treatment, even before the Heresy.
I think for the WE it was more a case of:
Emperor: Hey son, sorry I got all your friends killed. Have this fleet and soldiers and go kill. K bye Sure, Sanguinius being pretty and saving his entire legion from turning into creepy vampires gave them an edge but Angron and the WE didn't do themselves any favours in the "not being a terrible person" department. Sanguinius was also not insane, helps when you need to ask the Mechanicum for toys.
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: Given how Corax has transformed himself into some Warp Daemon Primarch
Wait, hold up, what's this? Corvus Corax is Chaos-aligned now?
If i recall correctly he show in some night lords novel. For some reason after 10.000 years near the eye of terror hunting traitors he seems to have developed some odd abilities like melting into shadows or into crows.
Not that he's turned to Chaos more like a little nod to the theory Primarch souls where crafted by the emperor from the Warp.
It's some kind of theory people mentioned in the past on the Background section maybe someone who has read the proper novel can shed more light on it.
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: Given how Corax has transformed himself into some Warp Daemon Primarch
Wait, hold up, what's this? Corvus Corax is Chaos-aligned now?
If i recall correctly he show in some night lords novel. For some reason after 10.000 years near the eye of terror hunting traitors he seems to have developed some odd abilities like melting into shadows or into crows.
Not that he's turned to Chaos more like a little nod to the theory Primarch souls where crafted by the emperor from the Warp.
It's some kind of theory people mentioned in the past on the Background section maybe someone who has read the proper novel can shed more light on it.
Word Bearers - "Shadow of the Past" from the "Sons of the Emperor" anthology. They think they're getting picked off by a deamon but it's Corax - and he's after Lorgar .
Why did angron not get killed off when he blatantly told Russ, if he was sane and "moral" he would have probably chopped off the emperors head for being a tyrant? I mean it seems Magnus's transgression post Nikea seems like a trifling thing..
Also... why is the idea of Nikea so dumb and wolves are allowed to keep their psykers "because they wolfy mc wolf fenris psykers.. Honest guvna!" It makes no sense
The whole thing with Rune Priest is that they draw power from Fenris instead of directly from the Warp. They don't believe themselves to be psykers, but rather shamans.
But why was The Emperor on board with that?
I can get the Space Wolves themselves being that far up their own arse, but they clearly are psykers. Why did no one call them on the bs?
Argive wrote: Why did angron not get killed off when he blatantly told Russ, if he was sane and "moral" he would have probably chopped off the emperors head for being a tyrant? I mean it seems Magnus's transgression post Nikea seems like a trifling thing..
Also... why is the idea of Nikea so dumb and wolves are allowed to keep their psykers "because they wolfy mc wolf fenris psykers.. Honest guvna!" It makes no sense
Because 1) The Emperor didn't tell Russ to kill Angron, and Russ is loyal to a fault. It's why he followed Horus's (the Emperor's proxy) orders to kill Magnus without a second thought and 2) Because the Emperor is a massive bellend. Nikea was simply political theatre, Magnus was not a favoured son and he needed to be seen as being proactive, whereas Russ and Khan were well liked. The Emperor explicitly told Magnus "Don't do this specific thing" and Magus was "I'ma do the thing", so the Emperor had to chastise him or risk looking weak. The Space Wolves weren't publicly and very conspicuously doing the thing and turning in to gibbering Chaos Spawn, the Thousand Sons were.
But it wasn't just the Thousand Sons that were restricted by Nikea.
It restricted all psykers in the Space Marine legions. Blood Angels, White Scars, Ultramarines, everyone had to hang up their psychic hoods.
Except the Space Wolves...
If it had been "Magnus you did the thing we specifically told you not to do, so you lose privileges". It was "everyone loses privileges. Except the Space Wolves"
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: Did Mechanicus like some legions more than the others considering that some legions were well stocked with things such as warships and some legions not so much?
I mean Blood Angels had 120000 Astartes and 300 capital ships and 600 escorts. Meanwhile a larger legion World Eaters had only 60 capital ships, a larger legion Luna Wolves a hundred capital ships and 300 escorts and lighter cruisers, near the BA size Space Wolves 60 capitals and 240 escorts.
Why did Mechanicus give unequal amount of supplies for legions?
The Dark Angels had their own production facilites. They predated the alliance with Mars, and were equipped with potentially having to fight a war against Mechanicum in mind.
kirotheavenger wrote: But it wasn't just the Thousand Sons that were restricted by Nikea.
It restricted all psykers in the Space Marine legions. Blood Angels, White Scars, Ultramarines, everyone had to hang up their psychic hoods.
Except the Space Wolves...
If it had been "Magnus you did the thing we specifically told you not to do, so you lose privileges". It was "everyone loses privileges. Except the Space Wolves"
Again political theater, Nikea was designed to censure the Thousands Sons, without publicity acknowledging they were censuring the Thousand Sons.
kirotheavenger wrote: But it wasn't just the Thousand Sons that were restricted by Nikea.
It restricted all psykers in the Space Marine legions. Blood Angels, White Scars, Ultramarines, everyone had to hang up their psychic hoods.
Except the Space Wolves...
If it had been "Magnus you did the thing we specifically told you not to do, so you lose privileges". It was "everyone loses privileges. Except the Space Wolves"
Some legions used psykers but the Tsons had psykers at almost every level of legion structure. Hell they even took mortal psykers as apprentices. The Khan was very much on Mangus's side during Nikea but Mortarion and the Wolves gave "stronger" arguments and cos of the whole warp storms shattering humanity, many psykers ruling lost planets and murdering people with wizard powers, the general consensus was psykers were bad.
Plus as we all know and love, the Imperium is run by morons including chief moron, the Emperor, who was a psyker along with his good pal Malcador.
Magnus did plenty wrong but combined with superstition and being generally moronic we got Nikea which just made everything worse for everyone.
kirotheavenger wrote: But it wasn't just the Thousand Sons that were restricted by Nikea. It restricted all psykers in the Space Marine legions. Blood Angels, White Scars, Ultramarines, everyone had to hang up their psychic hoods. Except the Space Wolves...
If it had been "Magnus you did the thing we specifically told you not to do, so you lose privileges". It was "everyone loses privileges. Except the Space Wolves"
Some legions used psykers but the Tsons had psykers at almost every level of legion structure. Hell they even took mortal psykers as apprentices. The Khan was very much on Mangus's side during Nikea but Mortarion and the Wolves gave "stronger" arguments and cos of the whole warp storms shattering humanity, many psykers ruling lost planets and murdering people with wizard powers, the general consensus was psykers were bad. Plus as we all know and love, the Imperium is run by morons including chief moron, the Emperor, who was a psyker along with his good pal Malcador. Magnus did plenty wrong but combined with superstition and being generally moronic we got Nikea which just made everything worse for everyone.
In fairness, the Emperor was a very special exception. I dunno if this is old lore or grognard brain, but the Emperor's soul was unique in that it didn't have any "negative" aspects of the warp in it, so Daemons (and the chaos gods) found his soul to be impossible to interact with (and thus possess), As his pseudonym implies, he was anathema to them.
And there's a good point made in Text to Speech device series by the Emperor that the opposite decision on Nikea might have ended up with some loyalist Primarchs being on traitor side during the Heresy.
My question isn't why were psykers banned, because that all makes sense.
The question is why this didn't apply to Space Wolves when it applied to everyone else. Leman Russ may have claimed they weren't psykers but it should be immediately obvious to absolutely everyone that that's a crock of gak.
Doesn't that fly in the face of not wanting to look weak? If they then allow a legion to openly flaunt their violations of the edict? Not only that, but the Space Wolfs were given the duty/honour of observing that other legions were following the edict properly!
How weak would the a government look if they form a task force of openly fraudulent businessmen to enforce a new tax evasion law?
Everyone would cry it was a farce.
The Space Wolves say they don't use psykers, they honestly believe that Rune Priest are not psykers, that is the opposite of "openly".
The rest of the Great Crusade either believes them or pretends to believe them and everyone is happy (except the Thousand Sons, but no one likes the Thousand Sons).
The Wolves use the power of the Wyrd, which was basically the spirit of Fenris itself. The whole point of the "Wolves not being pskyers but they actually are" is to show the hypocrisy of the Council of Nikea and the Wolves hatred of the Tsons. The Wolves had their own mutants in the form of the Wulfen. It's to highlight just how dumb and tragic the Heresy was and how easily it could have been prevented. Plus, all the Primarchs had a degree of psychic power but many just thought it was a natural mutation. Some were overt like Magnus's power and Sanguinius/Kurze's premonitions. Some were basically just that the Primarchs had unnaturally powerful charisma.
An important thing to note is that the Librarians were an experiment, not a fixture of the Legions. Russ, Mortarion, Dorn, and Corax all refused to fight alongside the Tsons, who consistently failed to control their psyker powers.Only Magnus, Sanguinius and the Khan supported the Librarius.
In the end, the Council was basically a decades-long plot by the Dark Gods to remove a powerful weapon from the arsenal of the Emperor. By the Siege pretty much all the legions, bar the World Eaters for obvious reasons, were using psykers and sorcery.
Yeah but just like SW dont believe their rune priests to be psykers.. Magnus believed his dudes are basicaly mathematicians as psykery is science to him.
The point is. It deoesnt matter what they believe. The point is all one ahd to say to rus is:
"but bruh.. your main man thats talking crap about psykers.. is a psyker"
Or you telling me not one of the other primarchs/ Fleet commanders would have raised the fact russ is still using psykers despite the edict to get ahead and elevate themselves at his expense? Like Mortarion.. ?
I get they all didn't like magnus much. But my lord, thats one glaring illogical plot hole someone as smart as magnus would have obviously attacked and destroyed.. The whole Nikea thing is so weak sauce..
On another tangent:
**Spoiler alert** Im currently on Betrayer in the HH series. I still for the life of me cannot figure out why Horus would not snap Erebus in half as soon as he found out he orchestrated him getting stabbed with the magic primarch killing sword.. He doesn't strike me as the kind a guy that would let that pass.. like ever...
Oh Magnus was very well aware of what he was doing, the Emperor told him and warned him after all. Magnus actively documented, researched and experimented with the mysteries of the Warp, to the point he was using daemonic familiars. The Emperor didn't have any issue with the Space Wolves, he had a very big issue with Magnus disregarding his warnings regarding the Warp.
Tyran wrote: Oh Magnus was very well aware of what he was doing, the Emperor told him and warned him after all. Magnus actively documented, researched and experimented with the mysteries of the Warp, to the point he was using daemonic familiars. The Emperor didn't have any issue with the Space Wolves, he had a very big issue with Magnus disregarding his warnings regarding the Warp.
I dont think anyone disagrees that magnus disregarded the edict. The point is every legion adhered to it (some much more reluctantly than others) disbanding their librarius and having chaplains/watchers watch them etc. Dorn even imprisoned all of his librarians I think. Anyway, the point is in all of this nobody looked at rune priests and pointed out they are also psykers. I dont care if they believe their psyker powers come from fenris or that they genuinely believe they are vikings and space is magic land...
It could be, that they had already taken into account the possibility of the T'sons breaking Nikea, and with the wolves being the already appointed candidate to censor/eradicate them, they could have turned a blind eye to Rune Priests as they were useful for the Wolves in this specific circumstance, being able to provide them with some element of defence against the T'sons psychic attacks.
I do wonder what the custodes and sisters of silence thought of the hypocrisy of the Rune priests using their powers on Prospero, whether it was a necessary evil or they shouldn't have used them under any circumstance considering the reason they and the wolves were there in the first place - this is all of course assuming they see through the BS that the rune priests are drawing their power from Fenris and not the warp.
If you already planned to use the Wolves as the enforcement of the edict, wouldn't it be more important that they're seen to be following it rather than openly flouting it?
Bear in mind the Wolves involvement wasn't limited to bringing the Thousand Sons to heel. Firstly, they were one of the biggest proponents of the ruling in the first place. Secondly, they were chosen to send contingents of Space Wolves (each containing a wolf priest!) to the other legions to observe them and make sure they were obeying the new ruling.
The White Scars also had the whole 'storm shaman' thing going, they were just honest about where the power ultimately came from.
TBH with a lot of the detail added in the Horus Heresy books The Emperor looks less like the legendary figure that united Earth and conquered that galaxy, and more like an utterly incompetent fool without a shred of ability to predict obvious consequences of his actions.
I think it's safe to say that the Emperor was kind of a prick. He clearly had sons that he favoured over others but even then he treated them all more as tools than family. People like Angron and Konrad Curze should have been given serious therapy, instead they were given armies and let loose.
It doesn't look like the Emperor cared about being fair or even being liked at all. Which is why so many primarchs didn't take much convincing to rebel. So yes, the Space Wolves situation is hypocrisy and the Emperor probably didn't give a damn.
I dont think anyone disagrees that magnus disregarded the edict. The point is every legion adhered to it (some much more reluctantly than others) disbanding their librarius and having chaplains/watchers watch them etc. Dorn even imprisoned all of his librarians I think. Anyway, the point is in all of this nobody looked at rune priests and pointed out they are also psykers. I dont care if they believe their psyker powers come from fenris or that they genuinely believe they are vikings and space is magic land...
The Wolves were already the Emperor's executioners, you don't push a favoured legion into murdering you for fun. And like people have said, the Council was more an unofficial censure of the Tsons rather than any important ruling on a Librarius.
Also, the Wolf Priests aren't Librarians, as Fenrisian Priests cover Librarian/Apothecary/Chaplain much like the Druids of the Emperors Spears chapter. The culture of Fenris is more important to the Wolves than the culture of the Imperium, yes they are loyal to its ideals but they aren't going to stop being Space Vikings and start using High or Low Gothic names for things.
Tiennos wrote: I think it's safe to say that the Emperor was kind of a prick. He clearly had sons that he favoured over others but even then he treated them all more as tools than family. People like Angron and Konrad Curze should have been given serious therapy, instead they were given armies and let loose.
It doesn't look like the Emperor cared about being fair or even being liked at all. Which is why so many primarchs didn't take much convincing to rebel. So yes, the Space Wolves situation is hypocrisy and the Emperor probably didn't give a damn.
I get that's how he's depicted now. But how did this man unite Terra and begin the great crusade? How was he ever so adored?
He's like the worst leader you could possibly be.
Because he has the bigger army and god-like psychic power. He is not a normal man, and he is not playing with the same rules.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Because he has the bigger army and god-like psychic power. He is not a normal man, and he is not playing with the same rules.
Because much like the Primarchs, the Emperor has unnatural charisma. If you were to meet him it would be impossible to not want to serve him. It took a being of equal charisma, Horus, and the support of his brothers for half the Imperium to turn on the Emperor.
If you live in an irradiated wasteland with no real hope then some giant golden man with a halo and a flaming sword says "Hey kid wanna unite humanity and join me in creating a glorious future?", you're hardly gonna say no. It's the same thing irl dictators do all the time, lift up the people with promises of glory and reclaiming their home. The Unification Wars weren't a week of some fighting then off into space. The Solar Reclamation took like 50 years or something, remember the Great Crusade was the better part of 300 years.
Gert wrote: Because much like the Primarchs, the Emperor has unnatural charisma. If you were to meet him it would be impossible to not want to serve him. It took a being of equal charisma, Horus, and the support of his brothers for half the Imperium to turn on the Emperor.
If you live in an irradiated wasteland with no real hope then some giant golden man with a halo and a flaming sword says "Hey kid wanna unite humanity and join me in creating a glorious future?", you're hardly gonna say no. It's the same thing irl dictators do all the time, lift up the people with promises of glory and reclaiming their home. The Unification Wars weren't a week of some fighting then off into space. The Solar Reclamation took like 50 years or something, remember the Great Crusade was the better part of 300 years.
Yeah you would have to roll a crit on your charisma check not to serve him
I get that's how he's depicted now. But how did this man unite Terra and begin the great crusade? How was he ever so adored?
He's like the worst leader you could possibly be.
He did kinda look like a god... but beyond that, for all his faults the Emperor did improve humanity's situation in a broad sense. Before he got to work, Terra was basically Mad Max World. All the other human colonies were mostly cut off from each other. The fact that many planets regressed all the way to "feral world" level shows how bad the Age of Strife was. The Emp's work was brutal and bloody, but it did bring progress and safety to a lot of places.
Anyway it seems obvious that the Emperor did genuinely care about humanity as a whole and did everything he could to help it thrive. The crusade wasn't a matter of pride or megalomania; he could have conquered Earth ages ago if he'd been inclined to. His problem seems to be that he did not care much about individual people (save for a few rare ones). He either didn't realize how unfair he was, or justified it as necessary for the greater good, because he was much more focused on the big picture.
I get that's how he's depicted now. But how did this man unite Terra and begin the great crusade? How was he ever so adored? He's like the worst leader you could possibly be.
He did kinda look like a god... but beyond that, for all his faults the Emperor did improve humanity's situation in a broad sense. Before he got to work, Terra was basically Mad Max World. All the other human colonies were mostly cut off from each other. The fact that many planets regressed all the way to "feral world" level shows how bad the Age of Strife was. The Emp's work was brutal and bloody, but it did bring progress and safety to a lot of places.
Anyway it seems obvious that the Emperor did genuinely care about humanity as a whole and did everything he could to help it thrive. The crusade wasn't a matter of pride or megalomania; he could have conquered Earth ages ago if he'd been inclined to. His problem seems to be that he did not care much about individual people (save for a few rare ones). He either didn't realize how unfair he was, or justified it as necessary for the greater good, because he was much more focused on the big picture.
I disagree.
Most colony worlds seemed to be quite stable and there were many with intersetallar mini empires and trade networks co-operating with other humans or aliens in relative peace. These all offered resistance warranting the wars. Otherwise why were there so many compliance wars? All of those were fine on their own. And capable of giving resistance...Sure, they could be wiped out by a passing waagh or some random alienz. But thats no different to what happens in the IOM anyway... Help is too far away to come on time anyway so what's the benefit of being part of emperors empire?
Truly regressed worlds welcomed the IOM because they were so outclassed, incpabale of defending themselves and their lives for lack of a better term, sucked.
Worlds enslaved by Aliens etc would likewise welcome the IOM. But most words were pretty ok by themselves to one degree or another. Call it what you wil but its plain and simple iron fist tyranny and conquest for the sake of conquest. Any nobility in that is just propaganda. Theres is a monologue when Angron lays it out perfectly..
Curbing out Chaos seems like a good reason but then why be a prat about it?
You aren’t separating what most people would see within the setting and what you know from the behind closed doors actions and conversations. You have fly on the wall knowledge about him that the vast majority of people, including the Primarchs at points did not have.
The council of Nikea was pretty blatant though.
The chances that any of the Primarchs DIDN'T see Russ flouting his psykers, during the council and/or in their overseer parties afterwards should be nill.
And that's just one example.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: You aren’t separating what most people would see within the setting and what you know from the behind closed doors actions and conversations. You have fly on the wall knowledge about him that the vast majority of people, including the Primarchs at points did not have.
We know alot of primarchs realised this.. it just took more or less wars for some to notice then others.
And not just the primarch. Theres plenty charachters through the books that are "unclouded" by the iim propaganda and they see it for what it is.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: You aren’t separating what most people would see within the setting and what you know from the behind closed doors actions and conversations. You have fly on the wall knowledge about him that the vast majority of people, including the Primarchs at points did not have.
We know alot of primarchs realised this.. it just took more or less wars for some to notice then others.
And not just the primarch. Theres plenty charachters through the books that are "unclouded" by the iim propaganda and they see it for what it is.
And those Primarchs then jumped to Chaos, kinda proving the Emperor right.
I agree that the Emperor is at his core another warlord, but without him humanity would have died a long time ago. A fractured humanity would have been unable to survive the Beast, would have fallen to the Rangdan and would have no chance of surviving the Great Devourer or the Necron threat (it still is heavily unlikely to survive either, but at least it has a fighting chance).
The Imperium is an empire. Empires tend to do bad things for "good" reasons. When every day is a struggle for survival, then a powerful god-like being comes along and says all you have to do to survive is swear loyalty, you swear loyalty. If you don't you die and your people are "freed" into the Imperium. More human worlds willing joined the Imperium than fought it but they wouldn't make for good stories and battle reports so of course, you see the humans fighting the Emperor. People keep seeming to forget that over 300 years of Crusading humanity still hadn't recovered all of its worlds and had committed numerous xenocides.
And just to make the point even clearer than it already is.
NIKEA WAS DUMB THAT'S THE POINT.
The Imperium and the Emperor actively do stupid things because they're human and have things called emotions. It doesn't matter if you the reader can see all the points of view objectively, they cannot because purely logical and infallible characters are boring and not good for stories that in turn sell toys.
If a captain promotes to chapter master, they lose command of their company. Instead they gain command of the entire chapter, including their previous company!
Librarians, not that I'm aware of. They're a separate arm of the chapter. Same for chaplains.
Although in the Blood Angels chapter, if the chapter master were to fall the High Chaplain and Master Sanguinary Priest take over joint command of the chapter until a new chapter master is appointed.
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: Are there many examples of Librarians becoming Chapter ?Masters or even just Captains and given their own companies to command?
They're rare - but there is a handful. The Blood Ravens had Azariah Kyras (who fell to Chaos) for example.
It's possible but insanely rare for any Marine not already in the command structure proper to become a Chapter Master. Sarpedon of the Soul Drinkers (the old ones not the new primaris chapter of the same name) and Kyrus of the Blood Ravens (but he was dedicated to chaos and caused a civil war within the chapter) are both examples of Cheif Librarian/Chapter Masters. The Angels Penitent also have a ruling council of Chaplains after their Chapter Master and 1st Company went missing. The Celestial Lions Chapter Master was just the last sergeant alive after the Inquisition plotted their extinction. The Iron Hands are also governed by a council and in their Legion day's Companies could be led by Iron-Fathers a Chaplain/Techmarine hybrid. My favourite lore stuff is when a lesser-known chapter with just a name and a paint scheme, gets new lore that shows its own unique culture, like what ADB did with the Emperor's Spears and what the new SM codex showed with some new/old chapter lore updates.
Thus far it has been one for each barring a couple of exceptions.
The Sons of Horus had two but they were favoured of the Emperor so would explain that.
The Imperial Fists had one but also had the Phalanx.
The Alpha Legion had two but they also had two Primarchs.
The Dark Angels have three we know and it's known they have more and were noted to have lots of Dark Age tech and the largest fleet of all the Legions but being the First Legion again they probably had the Emperor's favour.
The Word Bearers had two but considering the Mechanicum also built them three Abyss class super ships it's hardly surprising.
How did Eldrad not sense the dang demon sword of slanesh on fulgrim from a mile away rather then until they were having tea... ??
Ignoring that Macneil wrote the eldar terribly in that book with wraithlords and avatars being slaughtered by Fulgrim (it was at the height of GW's worfing of the avatar). They came across as identical to modern 40k eldar which they really shouldn't have been. So from this perspective Macneil was just writing the eldar as stupid mooks to kill so of course they wouldn't discover the obvious thing...
There are a couple of options:
1) Eldrad was relatively young at this point and the path of the seer very new. He may just not have had enough experience to figure this out
2) the sword was remaining as inert as possible to avoid being detected by sensitive individuals
3) Fulgrim's Emperor soul was so strong it kind of made it hard to notice the whispering daemon bound to a sword in it shadow
I'm still personally happy with 4) GW refuses to make anyone (especially the eldar) look better than the imperium.
Thought that Glorianas were Primarch Flagships, and that they were reserved for them. The Imperial Fists being special because they had the Deathstar sized Phalanx and the Alpha Legion also, you know. Having two Primarchs.
It seems in the HH there is a never ending stream of Titans and Battle Barge sized Gloriana Class battleships..
Like Guiliman brought an Imperator titan to fight lorgar and Angron... On its own. Where on mars, where the titans at when an imperator showed up they were like "OMFG what is that!?" And g man just shows up with one and drops in from space no less.... And without an escort I.E. warhounds which are common as instant noodles by all accounts Seeing 10+ is pretty standard for a lot of fleets it seems...
Im on book 36 but I've noticed some shall we say dubious numbers when it comes to ships.. Theres always more ships..
I recently found myself on the 40k lore subreddit and I have to ask, why is the understanding of 40k lore so appalling on it? I don't know whether it's just me but I find it quite odd. The questions are fair enough but some of the responses are just weirdly wrong as if they have a very narrow view of the universe. Is it just new people in the hobby not getting to grips with it?
panzerfront14 wrote: Thought that Glorianas were Primarch Flagships, and that they were reserved for them. The Imperial Fists being special because they had the Deathstar sized Phalanx and the Alpha Legion also, you know. Having two Primarchs.
No, just the largest "mass-produced" Battleship. The Imperial Navy (or whatever it was called then) had several.
Olthannon wrote: I recently found myself on the 40k lore subreddit and I have to ask, why is the understanding of 40k lore so appalling on it? I don't know whether it's just me but I find it quite odd. The questions are fair enough but some of the responses are just weirdly wrong as if they have a very narrow view of the universe. Is it just new people in the hobby not getting to grips with it?
short answer is: quite likely.
without trying to sound condescending, i believe the longer answer is:
Reddit has a somewhat skewed demographic profile compared to both the wider internet and the population at large, the average redditor being quite young, often in their early to mid teens (obviously, not ALL of them, but more of them than a equivalently sized but randomly selected grouping of, say, the US population would have). 40K has always been popular with teens, so a a section dedicated to a hobby full of young people, on a site that has a disproportionally young userbase, is going to have a lot of very young users who simply haven't read the 30-odd years of lore available. Hell, i'm in my 30's and theirs dozens of things in lore i don't know (never read a single one of the Horus heresy books, for example). And i know that back when i was a teenager in 3rd edition playing with my eldar (back when the "now in collage" guardian sculpts were new), I wasnt that great on a lot of the lore that wasnt directly related to my own faction, and often fuzzy on my owns factions lore as well.
But I didnt know it at the time. I thought I was something of an expert at the lore of the eldar, and would happily have debated with someone about it until i was blue in the face. I think a lot of the stuff your seeing on reddit is just more of the same, but online. kids with some knowledge trying to lord it over thier fellow peers, even though they dont know that much.
It doesnt help that most 40k lore is written to glorify one faction or another, so a player who'd only read, say, the genestealer cults lore in the codex would think they are awesome and unstoppable, whereas a marine player who'd only read his own lore might have a totally different opinion of them. cue internet "o rly?/ya rly" fights ad infinitum.
its the modern day equivilent of the schoolkids gathered in the playground talking bull to each other.
Olthannon wrote: I recently found myself on the 40k lore subreddit and I have to ask, why is the understanding of 40k lore so appalling on it? I don't know whether it's just me but I find it quite odd. The questions are fair enough but some of the responses are just weirdly wrong as if they have a very narrow view of the universe. Is it just new people in the hobby not getting to grips with it?
As someone who's on there quite a lot and tries to do his best to answer questions, there have definitely been instances where a question was answered so poorly that I just say, "Nope. This question is unsalvageable" and walk away. A lot of it does come from there being a fairly large number of new people to 40k, but that's intertwined with the people who get all their lore from youtube videos or TTS. They've never picked up a 40k novel, much less a codex or even thought of making any kind of army. I understanding that there are audio learners out there, but with very few exceptions, I've never seen a 40k youtube lore video that could properly convey the level of nuance that comes with almost every single piece of 40k lore. Just how many exceptions there are or how one occurrence of something does not mean it's a galaxy-wide standard. They treat 40k as consumers, rather than creators. Like it's Harry Potter or Marvel. Something that you wait to see what happens next rather than using the plothooks to create what's right for you.
A step up from that are the people who have only read the Horus Heresy novels and wouldn't be able to name two non-Imperium characters (that's not Trazyn). They try to apply a lot of what they see in the HH to the rest of 40k, not understanding just how much information would've never been public or been lost or covered up a dozen times over.
That said, I'm now terrified that some of my answers might be what you're referring to
40k lore is meme'd the most and because people see memes more than read codex/novel/rule books they accept it as fact. Not to say memes/jokes don't have their place but as a source of lore or background, solid nope.
Gert wrote: 40k lore is meme'd the most and because people see memes more than read codex/novel/rule books they accept it as fact. Not to say memes/jokes don't have their place but as a source of lore or background, solid nope.
QFT. I know almost nothing about Erebus, but i know to screw him if i meet him.......
Gert wrote: 40k lore is meme'd the most and because people see memes more than read codex/novel/rule books they accept it as fact. Not to say memes/jokes don't have their place but as a source of lore or background, solid nope.
QFT. I know almost nothing about Erebus, but i know to screw him if i meet him.......
Gert wrote: 40k lore is meme'd the most and because people see memes more than read codex/novel/rule books they accept it as fact. Not to say memes/jokes don't have their place but as a source of lore or background, solid nope.
QFT. I know almost nothing about Erebus, but i know to screw him if i meet him.......
Do tell ?
with erebus? If what i have seen on various 40K meme/crapposting groups is true, he is basically single handedly responsible for corrupting Horus, and thus by extension the Heresy, the failure of the Emperors plan, the doom of humanity, ect, etc.
hence, many many memes that are variations of "F*** Erebus". and hence my comment.
if you want the proper version i suggest a 40K wiki for his full list of misdeeds, but that seems to be the gist of it.
Erebus is basically one of the only instances where the meme accurately portrays his role in background events. Joint orchestration of the Heresy, which then got way out of his control and spiralled massively into something much worse that he still got out of pretty much safe. He and Kor Phaeron now just play chess with the Word Bearers until they get bored/push each other too far and have to calm down.
Gert wrote: 40k lore is meme'd the most and because people see memes more than read codex/novel/rule books they accept it as fact. Not to say memes/jokes don't have their place but as a source of lore or background, solid nope.
QFT. I know almost nothing about Erebus, but i know to screw him if i meet him.......
Do tell ?
with erebus? If what i have seen on various 40K meme/crapposting groups is true, he is basically single handedly responsible for corrupting Horus, and thus by extension the Heresy, the failure of the Emperors plan, the doom of humanity, ect, etc.
hence, many many memes that are variations of "F*** Erebus". and hence my comment.
if you want the proper version i suggest a 40K wiki for his full list of misdeeds, but that seems to be the gist of it.
Ohh sorry I misread your comment. I thought you said you know how to screw Erebus. So far ive noticed he has as much plot armour as a named space marine captain Im on book 27 FYI.
Im fully aware of Erebus and his shenanigans. But I think ultimately once Horus is turned granted largely by him. He sort of meanders about trying to be "the guy" but once primarchs take over and become main players, including logar, he sort of becomes irrelevant and everything he touches turns out crap.
From the novels perspective though he seems to have more plot armour than a named space marine captain..
I wouldn't describe Erebus as having "plot armour" just because he survived into M.41. Erebus never puts himself into direct harm and is always plotting from the sidelines or whispering into the ears of comrades. When he overstepped his authority against Horus, it was Horus's arrogance that let him live. Horus genuinely believed himself in control of events and was so assured of his victory that Erebus had become a non-entity to him.
Erebus is Starscream. Why doesn't Megatron/Horus/Lorgar just kill him when he interferes with everything so he can be on top? It's because he still serves a purpose that warrants him being alive and as the saying goes, "Keep your friends close but keep your enemies within range of your primary firearm.".
Yes but Erebus still lives and is now essentially joint commander of the Word Bearers, at least unless Lorgar is back. Erebus's ambition outweighs his ability to conduct his schemes but even so, I think the only time he comes relatively close to death is in Betrayer where Kharn beats him to within an inch of his life before he cheats and teleports away.
Guilliman is one of the few people who can stand in front of the Golden Throne for a protracted period of time, and I would guess that that would apply to other loyalist primarchs. I'm wondering, could the daemon primarchs be able to bust into the throne room? On one hand, they're daemons and most daemons wither in the presence of the Emperor, but on the other hand, they're primarchs.
Probably not. During the Siege of Terra, the demon Primarchs can't get through the Aegis shield (magic shield). By the time they become demon Primarchs they are no longer physical beings but instead made of Warp energy. Demons can manifest on Terra even post Siege but standing in front of the Anathema himself? Very unlikely to survive.
That said, I'm now terrified that some of my answers might be what you're referring to
Haha no don't worry I've not used reddit enough to see more than a couple of threads which prompted my original post. Interesting everyones responses to this, I guess it is more of an age thing and yes, the fact there's years upon years of lore to pour through.
Hellebore wrote: Probably the most egregious one is that ork technologically runs exclusively on 'clap your hands if you belive'.
which is either completely inaccurate, or absolutely overblown.
Either way it's probably one of the worst memes from 40k that communicated the orks terribly.
The thing is the Orks are the OTT comedy relief mad faction. However with 40k blowing up the way it did and people taking it so seriously now, its kinds hard to give the orks any kind of internal or in in-universe consistency logic. So we are stuck with "the ork wizard did it"
Hellebore wrote: Probably the most egregious one is that ork technologically runs exclusively on 'clap your hands if you belive'.
which is either completely inaccurate, or absolutely overblown.
Either way it's probably one of the worst memes from 40k that communicated the orks terribly.
The thing is the Orks are the OTT comedy relief mad faction.
Bah. Orks are the sane faction. No mad gods or dubious masters. No angst or pity parties. Just comfortable creatures, well adapted for the universe they inhabit. And also fun.
Could a high end psyker Astartes like Ahriman during the M41 era where his skills have been honed for over ten millenia manage to defeat a Primarch with no psyker powers such as Dorn or Perturabo in one vs one - combat?
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: Could a high end psyker Astartes like Ahriman during the M41 era where his skills have been honed for over ten millenia manage to defeat a Primarch with no psyker powers such as Dorn or Perturabo in one vs one - combat?
maybe, but most likely not.
its all about willpower, in this case. the will of the psyker vs the will of the target to resist the effects. Given that the primarchs are superior to almost everyone else is the vast majority of things, even when they are on the "weaker" side of the primarchs, id say its highly likely most primarchs have suffcient willpower to resist the powers of Ahriman and continue to fight more or less as normal. warp lightning and such is still a threat but unless the pysker can physically disable the primarch via sorcery then the primarch has the upper hand. they've all fought plenty of powerful psykers before, after all.
Talos had nothing Nurgle wanted. The Night Lords fight with fear, speed, slaughter, and trickery i.e. not traits that Nurgle values. The devotees of Nurgle are joyous, pondering, tough warriors, and even though the majority of Night Lords eschew the Gods they can still fall to temptation, just not Nurgle.
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: Could a high end psyker Astartes like Ahriman during the M41 era where his skills have been honed for over ten millenia manage to defeat a Primarch with no psyker powers such as Dorn or Perturabo in one vs one - combat?
maybe, but most likely not.
Before the Heresy, Malcador force-choked Horus and he couldn't escape (Jaghatai Khan had to plead to Malcador to release him). But we don't know how human or powerful Malcador was...
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: Could a high end psyker Astartes like Ahriman during the M41 era where his skills have been honed for over ten millenia manage to defeat a Primarch with no psyker powers such as Dorn or Perturabo in one vs one - combat?
maybe, but most likely not.
Before the Heresy, Malcador force-choked Horus and he couldn't escape (Jaghatai Khan had to plead to Malcador to release him). But we don't know how human or powerful Malcador was...
Yeah but that's because Malcador is a Boss Ass B.
As they are creations of the Emperor I would assume that even the Primarchs with zero interest or apparent psychic ability are still in someway naturally gifted with some latent power.
The black rage is essentially a psychic curse caused by the death of Sanguinius
I believe the Primarchs have the same psychic charismatic aura the Emperor does. Others have big boy powers like lightning eyes or turning into literal darkness and teleporting around like a ghost.
Hours wasn't all powerful when he turned to Chaos. Russ nearly killed him and Horus only survived because Maloghurst he Twisted sacrificed himself in a ritual.
Russ was the best fighter of the Primarchs, so it isn't that surprising. IIRC that was one of the reasons why Russ was considered the Emperor's Executioner, as he was expected to be able to kill his brothers if needed.
Gert wrote: Talos had nothing Nurgle wanted. The Night Lords fight with fear, speed, slaughter, and trickery i.e. not traits that Nurgle values. The devotees of Nurgle are joyous, pondering, tough warriors, and even though the majority of Night Lords eschew the Gods they can still fall to temptation, just not Nurgle.
Ok, that makes sense. I've always wondered what a Night Lords Nurgle-marked warband might be like. Night Lords Plague Marines could be terrifying, combining horrific biological warfare with the NL tendencies towards sadism.
Hey, 40k is a huge setting. There's a short story where the Garden of Nurgle manifests in a Word Bearers ship and all the Marines become Plague Marines. The Gods are tricksters and many warriors fall through no fault of their own, a NL warband that has been corrupted by Nurgle would be pretty cool to see.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Which story is this? In one of the WB armies on one of the YT battle report channels, there are some WB painted Plague Marines.
Vox Dominus?
I looked it up and that's the one. I noticed that it's written by Anthony Reynolds and features his characters from his WB series. Is it necessary to read those first?
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: Is there any info on how many cruisers battleships have as escorts in naval battles?
Would one suffice?
very roughly, at least 3 crusiers are present for each battleship, but their not really escorts so much as ships of the line in their own right.
the imperial navy, as portrayed in Battlefleet Gothic (still the go-to for 40k naval matters), is less "Royal Navy at Jutland", with the fighting strength concentrated in large numbers of the heaviest type of warship, and more "Royal Navy at Trafalgar", most of the fighting strength is in the medium sized ("cruiser") warships, with a few heavy battleships for flagships, leading the line of battle, etc.
the Imperial navy uses escorts (ie "Frigate" and "destroyer" sized ships) for actual escort duty, screening the fleet, flank protection, etc. the "three cruisers to a battleship" ratio is based on the BFG fleet lists, which required you to take three cruiser hulls for every battleship hull.
however, its not impossible for a battleship to be operating with only a single cruiser for a escort, for any number of reasons. its just not "the done thing", for lack of better way to put it. Battleships tend to spend most of thier time in port, as they are expensive to operate and if thiers no threat that needs them, its cheaper to just use a cruiser, and only bring you the BB when you need a Big Stick.
They are also extremely valuable, with the escort fleet meant to cover the weakspots of the battleship. A battleship without a sufficient escort fleet is a just a disaster waiting to happen.
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: So unlike a lot of real life navies, the Imperial Navy doesn't use cruisers to escort the battleships and screen them from any possible threats?
So that task is reserved for frigates and destroyers?
If battleships are present, then it is expected for them to be escorted by cruisers.
But as noted above battleships are expensive to deploy, so it is possible for a naval deployment to not include battleships. In that case cruisers can operate as ships of the line.
In an ideal scenario you will have battleships escorted by cruisers, which in turn are escorted by frigates and destroyers, but we are talking about the IoM, ideal is almost never the case.
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: So unlike a lot of real life navies, the Imperial Navy doesn't use cruisers to escort the battleships and screen them from any possible threats?
So that task is reserved for frigates and destroyers?
Like I said, the Imperial navy isnt structured like a modern navy, or even a ww1/ww2 navy, but more like a Age of Sail navy. The cruisers are (battle)Ships of the Line in their own right, not just a heavy screening element to the "real" battle line.
the cruisers arent being spread out to cover threat axis, but held back in the Line of Battle with the battleships, as part of the main effort. So, while their will be cruisers operating in close proximity with the Battleship, it will be as if they were also battleships, not assets to protect that battleship.
so not:
....c
c..B..c
....c
but :
B..c..c..c..c
its also worth pointing out the ratios of warships here. A sector fleet might have only 2 or 3 battleships, but 10-15 cruisers, and 50-75 escort sized ships.
Let's say a battleship with three cruisers + escorts is patrolling a sector of Imperial space. Would it be within the Imperial Navy's mode of conduct to leave only one cruiser with the battleship where as the other two cruisers go ahead to other systems, etc... and patrol them and in case of a bigger fight coalesce together into one force.
xerxeskingofking wrote: [
Like I said, the Imperial navy isnt structured like a modern navy, or even a ww1/ww2 navy, but more like a Age of Sail navy. The cruisers are (battle)Ships of the Line in their own right, not just a heavy screening element to the "real" battle line.
the cruisers arent being spread out to cover threat axis, but held back in the Line of Battle with the battleships, as part of the main effort. So, while their will be cruisers operating in close proximity with the Battleship, it will be as if they were also battleships, not assets to protect that battleship.
Cruisers are not battleships, there is a massive size difference that translate into a massive difference in firepower. Cruisers may be able to operate as ships of the line, but battleships are still the queens of the battlefield (unless a "superbattleship" like a Gloriana is involved).
Let's say a battleship with three cruisers + escorts is patrolling a sector of Imperial space. Would it be within the Imperial Navy's mode of conduct to leave only one cruiser with the battleship where as the other two cruisers go ahead to other systems, etc... and patrol them and in case of a bigger fight coalesce together into one force.
ah, i see. the answer is "yes they could, but may not want to".
that pretty much falls down to the discretion of the admiral commanding the squadron. naval comanders, by the nature of their job, are routinely out of contact form higher command for extended periods of time, so often have much greater autonomy than army commander of equivalent rank. So, if he thought it was the best way to conduct the mission he was given, he'd normally be allowed to do it.
However, given the poor communications available in 40K, having his force split across several systems creates a level of rigidity in his available courses of action, becuase he cant reliably send astropathic messages to his detached ships, so he has to pre-plan in rendezvous with them when he dispatches them, and then add on more time to allow for warp shenanigans screwing with journey times.
So, if he sends a pair of crusers off to patrol the Boring System, if something comes up after they leave (reports of raiders or pirates in the Different System, for example), most likely he wont be able to recall them before he needs to head off to deal with the problem, or if he does wait for them, he'll be much much slower to respond becuase of the time and travel lags, maybe too slow to react in time.
So, its really a question of how likely he thinks he is going to face a enemy strong enough he wants his full strength with him to fight it. Its the classic concentration of force dilemma.
But, they gave him those Admirals rank insignia, and all the perks that go with them, explicitly so that he could make this hard decisions and shoulder the blame if they go wrong.
xerxeskingofking wrote: [
Like I said, the Imperial navy isnt structured like a modern navy, or even a ww1/ww2 navy, but more like a Age of Sail navy. The cruisers are (battle)Ships of the Line in their own right, not just a heavy screening element to the "real" battle line.
the cruisers arent being spread out to cover threat axis, but held back in the Line of Battle with the battleships, as part of the main effort. So, while their will be cruisers operating in close proximity with the Battleship, it will be as if they were also battleships, not assets to protect that battleship.
Cruisers are not battleships, there is a massive size difference that translate into a massive difference in firepower. Cruisers may be able to operate as ships of the line, but battleships are still the queens of the battlefield (unless a "superbattleship" like a Gloriana is involved).
i am aware of that, what i meant was that difference between a Retribution class battleship and a Lunar class cruiser is the difference between a 100 gun 1st rate ship of the line and a 74 gun 3rd rate ship of the line, not the different between Iowa class battleship and a Worchester class heavy cruiser. the former is a difference in scale, the latter is a difference in kind.
A 74 would lose to a 100 gunner, yes, but its still able to stand in the line, and the fleet is built around those 74's, not a line of 100 gun ships. In the same way, Imperial fleets are large numbers of cruisers, with a few battleships, and not large numbers of battleships, with a few cruisers to scout and screen for them, and that is the way they are like age of sail fleet.
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Tyran wrote: I would expect for the core of the fleet to remain together, while the patrolling is done by frigates.
If the frigates find some problem, then most of the fleet can be brought to bear.
that is also an option, and certainly one to consider if your expecting serious enemy opposition, but thier is still merit in a "recce in force" with a cruiser and a 2-3 frigates, which has enough firepower to deal with small problems, and enough firepower to ensure at least one survivor if they run into something the CAN'T deal with.
its all swings and roundabouts in the absence of a detailed threat analysis, in depth knowledge of the sector and the mission, etc. these are all just possible choices and the reasons why you might, and might not, do a certain thing. if one of them happens to be what you need to happen form a storytelling perspective, then thats what the admiral in charge chose to happen, for the reasons we listed.
i am aware of that, what i meant was that difference between a Retribution class battleship and a Lunar class cruiser is the difference between a 100 gun 1st rate ship of the line and a 74 gun 3rd rate ship of the line, not the different between Iowa class battleship and a Worchester class heavy cruiser. the former is a difference in scale, the latter is a difference in kind.
There is a massive difference between a battleship and a cruiser, at least when it comes to size. I mean, the average battleship's model in BFG was around 125 mm long, and cruisers were around 90mm long. That would make a cruiser less than three quarters the length of a battleship, which is even greater than the difference between an Iowa and a Worcester (the Worcester is slightly more than 3 quarters the Iowa's length).
And some sources make that difference in size even greater, meanwhile 100 and 74 gunners were nowhere close to being that different in size. If cruisers are 74 gunners, then the 100 gunners would be battlecruisers (which are upgunned cruiser hulls) but battleships still stand as a different class.
A 74 would lose to a 100 gunner, yes, but its still able to stand in the line, and the fleet is built around those 74's, not a line of 100 gun ships. In the same way, Imperial fleets are large numbers of cruisers, with a few battleships, and not large numbers of battleships, with a few cruisers to scout and screen for them, and that is the way they are like age of sail fleet.
In that I agree, there are too few battleships to build fleets around them.
There is a massive difference between a battleship and a cruiser, at least when it comes to size. I mean, the average battleship's model in BFG was around 125 mm long, and cruisers were around 90mm long. That would make a cruiser less than three quarters the length of a battleship, which is even greater than the difference between an Iowa and a Worcester (the Worcester is slightly more than 3 quarters the Iowa's length).
And some sources make that difference in size even greater, meanwhile 100 and 74 gunners were nowhere close to being that different in size. If cruisers are 74 gunners, then the 100 gunners would be battlecruisers (which are upgunned cruiser hulls) but battleships still stand as a different class.
In that I agree, there are too few battleships to build fleets around them.
size isnt everything. my point was if HMS Victory put a full broadside into a 74, it'd be pretty hurt but would reply in kind and be worn down over an extended period (barring fancy manouvering or such to get a raking shot), and 100 gunner would have suffered significant damage in the process of sinking that 74. If USS Iowa put a full broadside into a Worcester.....the cruiser would be at best crippled and mostly likely have suffered fatal damage, whereas the Worcester couldn't penetrate the Iowa main belt except at suicidally short ranges (if at all), and could only really cause light to medium damage to it (wreck the superstructure, but thats about it).
a BFG gun duel between cruiser and a BB is really going to be a mix of both of those, in that the BB has sheilding enough to come out more or less unhurt, but the cruiser isnt going to be put out of action in a few slavos of fire, but a extended gunnery duel that smashes it bit by bit. So, the result is closer to the age of sail "cruiser is a ship of the line" than a ww2 "cruiser is a heavy scout".
Ive noticed some of the BL books mention "Strike cruisers". My understanding is they are just a bigger kind of cruiser. I guess in comparing to EVE online terms that would be a battlecruiser equivalent?
It kinda is. Above all else size determines cost, and Battleships are noted to be so much more expensive than cruisers, to the point their construction is exclusive to Forge Worlds unlike cruisers that can be build by Hive Worlds and even Civilized Worlds.
And Battleships need to be able to justify that cost, otherwise they would just be a waste.
Now sure shielding technology means a cruiser isn't necessarily immediately crippled when facing a battleship, but that is a dynamic that only exists because of shielding and cannot really be compared to any historical context.
Argive wrote: Ive noticed some of the BL books mention "Strike cruisers". My understanding is they are just a bigger kind of cruiser. I guess in comparing to EVE online terms that would be a battlecruiser equivalent?
Strike Cruisers are Space Marines Cruisers. Basically they (usually) have less firepower than an Imperial Cruiser, but are faster, specializing on boarding actions and fast deployment of orbit to ground forces.
It kinda is. Above all else size determines cost, and Battleships are noted to be so much more expensive than cruisers, to the point their construction is exclusive to Forge Worlds unlike cruisers that can be build by Hive Worlds and even Civilized Worlds.
And Battleships need to be able to justify that cost, otherwise they would just be a waste.
Now sure shielding technology means a cruiser isn't necessarily immediately crippled when facing a battleship, but that is a dynamic that only exists because of shielding and cannot really be compared to any historical context.
Argive wrote: Ive noticed some of the BL books mention "Strike cruisers". My understanding is they are just a bigger kind of cruiser. I guess in comparing to EVE online terms that would be a battlecruiser equivalent?
Strike Cruisers are Space Marines Cruisers. Basically they (usually) have less firepower than an Imperial Cruiser, but are faster, specializing on boarding actions and fast deployment of orbit to ground forces.
Ahh so they are marine cruisers with boarding torpedos as opposed to navy cruiser with just normal firepower and no SM contingent. Gotcha. Makes sense.
I was under the impression that Thousand Sons sorcerers no longer suffered from the flesh change due to the rubric spell. Yet in both art and on models, we see that some of them do indeed have mutations like talons and bird heads. Is this a different form of mutation from the original flesh change, or a bait and switch from Tzeentch?
Also in regards to escorts to capital ships ratios, the SM legions were quite heavy in terms of capital ships vs. escorts.
On average each capital ship had three escorts. There were some which only had two per cap ship such as Blood Angels with 300 capitals and 600 escorts.
Then there were some that had four such as SW with 60 capital ships and 240 escorts.
And ome particularly weird example is White Scars whose fleet at Chondad had 472 capitals and 600 escorts. Quite lopsided when there is barely an escort per capital ship.
And also Sons of Horus had about a hundred heavy capital ships and thrice that in smaller lighter cruisers and escorts. So not even three escorts per capital ship.
ArcaneHorror wrote: I was under the impression that Thousand Sons sorcerers no longer suffered from the flesh change due to the rubric spell. Yet in both art and on models, we see that some of them do indeed have mutations like talons and bird heads. Is this a different form of mutation from the original flesh change, or a bait and switch from Tzeentch?
Ahriman cures the Legion of the Flesh Change.
Ahriman gets exiled.
Legion ends up being dedicated to the God of Change.
Flesh Change happens anyway.
Tzeentch laughs.
Are Space Marines harder to take over by telepath Psykers than normal humans? As in if a Psyker telepathically manages to manipulate 10 Astartes, would he or she be able to manipulate a hundred of normies?
Yes, Astartes psykers are much better trained and have an naturally stronger willpower thanks to their hypno-conditioning as initiates. The psychic power generated by the Beast was so powerful it overwhelmed a large number of Librarians during the War of the Beast and was noted as being a serious threat to mortals both normal and psyker.
Considering Firstborn Marine chapters have been sending in gene-seed tithe for the past ten thousand years back to Adeptus Mechanicus, so they must have a lot of gene-seed reserve. Can this gene-seed reserve be modified to be used to produce Primaris instead?
The gene-seed produced specifically for the first wave of Primaris was made purer thanks to the Sangprimus Portum which contained the perfect genetic samples of all 20 Primarchs. However, despite initial success with repressing deviation such as the Red Thirst and Curse of the Wulfen, the purification has failed and each Primaris is just as likely as their Firstborn brothers to succumb to genetic instability. As for tinkering with already produced gene-seed, some of the initial wave of Primaris were recruited just after the Heresy and were in stasis as Firstborn until they were "upgraded" into Primaris. So either their original gene-seed was replaced or upgraded alongside the rest of the Primaris improvements.
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: Considering Firstborn Marine chapters have been sending in gene-seed tithe for the past ten thousand years back to Adeptus Mechanicus, so they must have a lot of gene-seed reserve. Can this gene-seed reserve be modified to be used to produce Primaris instead?
There's not as much as you'd think, as it's been used to found new Chapters and also stolen by Chaos (Storm of Iron covers an Iron Warriors gene-seed raid).
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: Considering Firstborn Marine chapters have been sending in gene-seed tithe for the past ten thousand years back to Adeptus Mechanicus, so they must have a lot of gene-seed reserve. Can this gene-seed reserve be modified to be used to produce Primaris instead?
There's not as much as you'd think, as it's been used to found new Chapters and also stolen by Chaos (Storm of Iron covers an Iron Warriors gene-seed raid).
I recall a quote about some High Lords of Terra discussing and saying they have gene-seed reserves to create thousands of more chapters.
So taking that by its absolute high end value could be interpreted in a way that each SM chapter could be upsized from a thousand marines to ten thousans marines.
What would be some of the smallest forces a Space Marine Chapter might send out on their own?
The Gladius class frigate is the first thing which springs to mind, it's described as having a crew of "Only a single squad of space marines" along with chapter serfs.
So, that's maximum ten, and while Frigates normally function as close in escorts, they can also be employed as scouts, though usually in groups.
VonGerrow wrote: What would be some of the smallest forces a Space Marine Chapter might send out on their own?
Send out where & how? Gaunt's Ghosts had 3 Marines (from different Chapters) assigned to them for special missions, but they were drawn from larger forces in the wider Sabbat Worlds Crusade. One of the Iron Hands books has a 5-man squad assaulting a hive IIRC - I'll see if I can dig it out.
Let's say send out to assist a minor war; something within the chapter's area of responsiblity, but not high up the list of priorities.
Say, some backwater planet 20 light years from their homeworld is calling out for aid; but the total engaged forces are only like, 40,000 guardsmen and PDF vs 30,000 greenskins.
beast_gts wrote: Orks never stop growing, so the older and more powerful an Ork is the bigger they are. The War of the Beast had house-sizes Orks, and larger...
Wait, you're telling me we could see a Knight or even Titan sized Ork?
Yes. Some of the big bosses in War of the Beast were the size of a small Gargant.
VonGerrow wrote: Let's say send out to assist a minor war; something within the chapter's area of responsiblity, but not high up the list of priorities.
Say, some backwater planet 20 light years from their homeworld is calling out for aid; but the total engaged forces are only like, 40,000 guardsmen and PDF vs 30,000 greenskins.
Firstly, 40k Guardsmen vs 30k Orks? That wouldn't get the attention of an Astartes force since the Imperial presence outnumbers the Ork forces.
Most Chapter strike forces operate on either a Company or half Company basis, alongside added assets such as armour, 1st Company Veterans, 10th Company Scouts, Librarius attaches, and fleet support. For example:
The Ultramarines 4th Company supports the planet of Pavonis against the T'au. It consists of the full 4th Company plus 2 Scout squads, and its Strike Cruiser Vae Victus.
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: How would a single hit to torso from a heavy bolter look like assuming it was an Astartes shooting at an unaugmented human?
Presumably the same thing that happens when a regular bolter shell hits a human. Bolters are light anti tank weapons that fire rocket propelled munitions. When it hits a body, it continues traveling and the body is liquefied by the kinetic energy. A person might survive taking a glancing hit on a limb, though would likely bleed to death without immediate and near miraculous intervention. A direct torso hit would leave a chunky red smear and maybe a pair of boots somewhere in a twenty foot radius.
Firstly, 40k Guardsmen vs 30k Orks? That wouldn't get the attention of an Astartes force since the Imperial presence outnumbers the Ork forces.
Most Chapter strike forces operate on either a Company or half Company basis, alongside added assets such as armour, 1st Company Veterans, 10th Company Scouts, Librarius attaches, and fleet support. For example:
The Ultramarines 4th Company supports the planet of Pavonis against the T'au. It consists of the full 4th Company plus 2 Scout squads, and its Strike Cruiser Vae Victus.
I think it’d be more likely for those Marines to send a bunch of Scouts for field training if that’s the case. A good chance for practical experience.
The 1st Company usually gets deployed as force multipliers but sometimes, usually in the defence of a Chapter Homeworld, they are all deployed together. The siege of the Fortress of Hera and the Bloodborn invasion are both instances of the Ultramarines 1st Company fighting as one under the Chapter Master.
I heard the reason no traitor legion gene-seed has been used to create Astartes chapters has to do with how the gene-seed makes Astartes on some psychological / subconscious level obedient towards their Primarch. So there would be risk in creating let's say Iron Warriors chapters because in battlefield they would be at risk to defecting to Perturabo.
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: I heard the reason no traitor legion gene-seed has been used to create Astartes chapters has to do with how the gene-seed makes Astartes on some psychological / subconscious level obedient towards their Primarch. So there would be risk in creating let's say Iron Warriors chapters because in battlefield they would be at risk to defecting to Perturabo.
there does seem to be a psychic link of some sort, the Blood Angels black rage but to a lesser degree maybe
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: I heard the reason no traitor legion gene-seed has been used to create Astartes chapters has to do with how the gene-seed makes Astartes on some psychological / subconscious level obedient towards their Primarch. So there would be risk in creating let's say Iron Warriors chapters because in battlefield they would be at risk to defecting to Perturabo.
That makes a lot of sense, but then Night Lords' gene-seed would be good to go, as Curze is as dead as a can of spam, and it was fairly defect free.
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: I heard the reason no traitor legion gene-seed has been used to create Astartes chapters has to do with how the gene-seed makes Astartes on some psychological / subconscious level obedient towards their Primarch. So there would be risk in creating let's say Iron Warriors chapters because in battlefield they would be at risk to defecting to Perturabo.
This is a factor but also considering the Imperium's dogma regarding traitors and heretics, making SM with the gene-seed of the biggest traitors and heretics known to man is kind of a big no-no. Of course Cawl doesn't really give a rats about the rules so it's entirely possible there are some Primaris out there with traitor Legion gene-seed.
Until Primaris came out, second in command of a company usually fell to its most senior Sarge who would also take over if the captain were to fall.
Now we have Lt's in the chapter command structure.
What are the odds of Warp! Corax (he showed up in a short where he stomped Lorgar, and is apparently learning new warp tricks) coming back to work with Guilliman?
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: Why is there no executive officers in Space Marine companies and Chapters?
There is no second in commans in the company hq, only the Captain.
The same goes for Chapter HQ.
They did sort of exist, but exactly where or how was left incredibly non-specific.
For example the unnamed player commander in Dawn of War II, who is described as a 'Force Commander' (note that in the 3rd ed. Codex, this was equivalent to a Chapter Master), and has command markings, but isn't a Captain.
Some Chapters retained lieutenants before the introduction of Primaris.
The 3rd ed. codex also featured the 'Leader' who was an HQ Veteran Sergeant, representing an 'experienced veteran'.
Is it necessary to read the revised versions of Dark Imperium and Plague Wars before reading Godblight (no spoilers please)? Also, how big were the changes made in the new editions?
White Scars nearly killed Mortarion by nearly blowing him up along with WS flagship.
Would that scheme succeding have slowed down Horus' attack on Terra enough to let Ultramarines and Dark Angels arrive in time enough for Emperor not to decide to board Vengeful Spirit and let Lion and Guilliman have their way with the traitors?
Firstly we'd have to consider if Nurgle would even allow that to happen in the first place. Dibs on an entire Legion and its Primarch can have some interesting effects on reality.
Ignoring divine intervention, yes the loss of a Daemon Primarch would have hampered Horus quite a bit. Mortarion and the DG do a lot of heavy lifting during the Siege alongside the Iron Warriors because they can withstand much more damage than the other Legions.
Assuming we're talking a planet of Humans, probably yeah. You're talking 1k+ Astartes with armour, air support, and orbital supremacy. That's not a difficult task to accomplish in a quick time frame.
The Taros campaign sort of addresses how a Space Marine chapter would go about subjucating a planet.
Note, Taros was a nominally loyal Imperial planet, but the elite were found to be trading with Xenos, and the workers were loyal to the elite.
They landed a battle company of Astartes in the governor's palace with the intention to kill him and his government, to then replace them with a new government.
If the governor wasn't there they planned a short seek-and-destroy campaign until he was found.
In conjunction they ordered the Arbites of the planet to arrest any one else deemed too high ranked.
Didn't really work out like that, the Tau had already reinforced Taros in strength and repelled the Astartes and Arbites, so things escalated into a full invasion and war.
Let's say there was a Chapter trying to conquer a planet like modern Earth with numerous hundreds of independent governments, many thousands of state / provincial governments along with supranational unions like the EU?
Let's say the invading force was an entire Chapter with one battle barge and three strike cruisers along with eight rapid strike vessels.
A week because modern Earth is a mess.
Not a single example of a modern conflict would be applicable because the way SM work completely outclasses any previous experience.
A week is generous.
With an entire chapter at their disposal they could easily take out every single government in the world in about fifteen minutes with simultaneous strikes. It'd only take a squad at most droppodding in.
I imagine they'd focus more, perhaps a company, to deploy to major military installations such as modern airbases and tank depots.
They could repulse more or less any given attack as soon as it's launched.
Quelling the population might be more difficult, that's an operation that can't be done quickly and is really just not up the Astarte's ally.
Marines would control the "High ground" (orbital space).
With targeted lance strikes, earth based defences would crumble. Even "hardened" bunkers would burn.
ICBMs might be able to reach them (they'd have to be retargeted for non-surface targets), but they'd be neutralised by close-in-defence batteries or armour.
And that's before a single marine makes planetfall.
That is quite underselling just how armed modern earth is.
Nvm that marines don't always perform up to taks either, cue vraks, and that was a handsoff campaign of removal not capturing.
Also there's the fact that our techlevel so to speak is not non negliable.
kirotheavenger wrote: The Taros campaign sort of addresses how a Space Marine chapter would go about subjucating a planet.
Note, Taros was a nominally loyal Imperial planet, but the elite were found to be trading with Xenos, and the workers were loyal to the elite.
They landed a battle company of Astartes in the governor's palace with the intention to kill him and his government, to then replace them with a new government.
If the governor wasn't there they planned a short seek-and-destroy campaign until he was found.
In conjunction they ordered the Arbites of the planet to arrest any one else deemed too high ranked.
Didn't really work out like that, the Tau had already reinforced Taros in strength and repelled the Astartes and Arbites, so things escalated into a full invasion and war.
But the intention was there.
The Taros campaign book I think is the best illustration of an almost 'real life' conception of an Imperial assault - the way the Marines are used in particular is awesome; with the attack on the Governor's palace to capture him, and then the Raptors carrying out an assault on the gun emplacements. It really makes the Marines come across as the kind of special-forces type tool that they are. Think it probably helps that they were authored by Warwick Kinrade, who is massively into his military history, and so his stuff always has a quasi-historical/real-life edge to it.
I think even though the rules are out of date now that book is worth getting hold of, just because the ideas, story and concepts are so cool.
Modern Earth doesn't have orbital defences or strike capability. That's the biggest issue here. It doesn't matter if it's one Strike Cruiser or a fleet of Astartes vessels, if Earth proves to be too irritating to bother with, the planet will be annihilated from orbit then dealt with at a later date.
Atomic weapons are noted by the Imperium as dangerous but vastly inferior to the weapons the Imperium uses.
Vraks is a very bad example since it was a prepared situation that only came to the attention of Space Marine forces after there had been a siege for ages and the defenders had the same equipment as the attackers plus CSM/Daemon/Chaos Titan support. At no point was a whole Chapter dedicated to the Siege of Vraks.
I agree, coincidently I was just rereading Taros this weekend! I had to shoehorn it into a thread
I love the look into Imperial Bureaucracy we get as well.
I wish we get more books in this theme. IMO it's how campaigns should be written.
The newer "CAN THE ULTRAMARINES SAVE THE GALAXY AGAIN?!?!" narratives are so lame in comparison.
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: Let's say there was a Chapter trying to conquer a planet like modern Earth with numerous hundreds of independent governments, many thousands of state / provincial governments along with supranational unions like the EU?
Let's say the invading force was an entire Chapter with one battle barge and three strike cruisers along with eight rapid strike vessels.
Seeing as we have no means of void defences they could just threaten to bombard us from orbit and force us to capitulate. If we don't believe them, they could just broadcast a live fire exercise on the moon.
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: Let's say there was a Chapter trying to conquer a planet like modern Earth with numerous hundreds of independent governments, many thousands of state / provincial governments along with supranational unions like the EU?
Let's say the invading force was an entire Chapter with one battle barge and three strike cruisers along with eight rapid strike vessels.
Marines introduce themselves to the most powerful entities, superpowers like US, China, Russia. They say that the Imperium is going to require a tithe from our world. The tithe will start at a relatively low cost, whatever it is. Successfully meeting the tithe will result in trade routes opening up from other worlds, providing access to unimaginable technology. National entities that support the tithe will gain the support of the Marines (and their orbital assets) in any conflict against non-supporters.
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: Let's say there was a Chapter trying to conquer a planet like modern Earth with numerous hundreds of independent governments, many thousands of state / provincial governments along with supranational unions like the EU?
Let's say the invading force was an entire Chapter with one battle barge and three strike cruisers along with eight rapid strike vessels.
Marines introduce themselves to the most powerful entities, superpowers like US, China, Russia. They say that the Imperium is going to require a tithe from our world. The tithe will start at a relatively low cost, whatever it is. Successfully meeting the tithe will result in trade routes opening up from other worlds, providing access to unimaginable technology. National entities that support the tithe will gain the support of the Marines (and their orbital assets) in any conflict against non-supporters.
I could see a Rogue Trader going this route more than most Space Marine Chapters.
When was the decision by Council of Nicaea banning psyker use revoked by the Imperium when Chapters of Adeptus Astartes started to organize librarians once again with no repercussions?
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: When was the decision by Council of Nicaea banning psyker use revoked by the Imperium when Chapters of Adeptus Astartes started to organize librarians once again with no repercussions?
Late in the Heresy, IIRC - it might have been just before the Siege of Terra.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Do the Sisters of Battle have anything akin to a tech-marine in their ranks?
I want to say one of the Non-Militant Orders fulfils that function, but I'm not 100% sure about that...
The decision to eliminate the Legions use of Psykers was rescinded almost immediately after the Heresy since the Traitors use of Psykers, Daemons, and other Warp powers heavily impacted Loyalist forces who were still technically banned from using their own Psykers during the conflict.
Even during the Heresy, almost every Loyalist force used Librarians or Esotericists to combat the Traitors and Guillimans Codex Astartes implemented them in the organisation of a Chapter. It was then up to the individual Chapter to include them in their forces.
Yeah, regarding the disbanded Librarius, the Ultramarines very quickly found themselves re-implementing their Librarius post-Calth, with many psychically attuned Astartes realising how effective their psychic powers were in particular against daemonic foes.
Arguably, the sheer amount of daemonic forces the Word Bearers brought to bear against the Ultramarines only hastened their re-implementation of the Librarius.
The Lion, Sanguinius, Dorn, Guilliman, and the Khan all reintroduced their Librarians very quickly during the Heresy. Nikea was almost entirely to censure the Thousand Sons and humiliate Magnus.
like Lord Zarkov said, they have red blood, for several reasons: Lorewise, its because the algae that gives them their green colour is concentrated only in their skin, where it can get light to photosynthesize.
real world wise, the painters use red, because green blood looks less like a wound and more like a painting accident, so they paint and portray Ork blood as red..
Troubles for Earth vs a Strike Cruiser lead fleet.
Our militaries heavily rely on communication. So our satellite system would likely be the first to go, quite possibly whilst the Fleet bombards centres of Government or military bases. That’s going to wreck cohesive responses.
All the time they’re in orbit? There’s sod all we can do about it. They needn’t attempt landfall until military bases and airfields are trashed.
Our militaries heavily rely on communication. So our satellite system would likely be the first to go, quite possibly whilst the Fleet bombards centres of Government or military bases. That’s going to wreck cohesive responses.
All the time they’re in orbit? There’s sod all we can do about it. They needn’t attempt landfall until military bases and airfields are trashed.
well, its not called the ultimate high ground for nothing. then again, If the imperium wanted to bring modern day Earth into Compliance, the techology difference is so great that they wouldn't NEED to take out the command infrastructure to win. A simple radio message and maybe a small demonstration that they can wreck havoc on any resistance would be enough to convince any sane government to surrender, which would preserve the planet and its infrastructure for the actually hard part of exerting a meaningful level of control over the planet, for which having the existing security and control apparatus intact would be a useful starting point.
However, i happen to be a military communications specialist (as in, i get paid to make comms happen). While we make extensive use of satellite communications systems, we do have a range of options that are not based on that particular single point of failure (because, Y'know, the russains arent stupid either). Conventional High-Frequency radios, for example, are perfectly capable of talking intercontinental distances, and have been used to do so since the 2nd world war (i have personally seen them talk form a base near Rome to Kandahar airfield, Afghanistan, using a radio system that could be packed up and fit in the back of a pickup truck, though i admit the antennas are much bigger when deployed), with the added bonus that the signal would not be detectable form space (as it "bounces" off a ionised layer of the atmosphere back down to earth). The undersea communications cables, many of which are very high capacity fibre optic cables, would still work, as well (though i concede they would be vulnerable to strikes that hit the links ashore to isolate them).
Their is very little mention of the imperium making use of EW assets, but that might be more because its just not very "sexy" compared to MOAR TANKS! Or, it may be their rather limited understanding of techology means they mostly don't possess the means to actively jam radio comms, which would leave most smaller units relatively untouched in terms of comms.
Two novels that show of the Imperium's electronic warfare are Red Tithe and the Lords of Mars books. In Red Tithe the Night Lords are shown to have systems that can confuse systems for other Astartes, including auspex and comms. At one point the Charcarodons Captain dismisses his helms own sensors because it shows half of his command squad as dead while he talks to them in person.
Lords of Mars gets into the Admechs methods of encryption and security in the noosphere. I think the reason none of this gets mentioned is that the tech difference between xenos systems makes any connection/interference nearly impossible to begin with.
Pretty sure the Admechs answer to 'can you break Necron encryption' results in the questioner being turned into a servitor and forgotten about.
Veldrain wrote: I think the reason none of this gets mentioned is that the tech difference between xenos systems makes any connection/interference nearly impossible to begin with.
Pretty sure the Admechs answer to 'can you break Necron encryption' results in the questioner being turned into a servitor and forgotten about.
despite what the libtards say, i've seen Independence Day and I know this is scientifically false
Veldrain wrote: I think the reason none of this gets mentioned is that the tech difference between xenos systems makes any connection/interference nearly impossible to begin with.
Pretty sure the Admechs answer to 'can you break Necron encryption' results in the questioner being turned into a servitor and forgotten about.
despite what the libtards say, i've seen Independence Day and I know this is scientifically false
The reason given in the Independence Day novels is that Earth tech is largely based off the salvaged alien tech, which is why they can interact.
The eldar use a lot of EM systems. Holofields are one form, and they're so powerful they don't just affect targeting systems and sensors, they affect your eyes as well.
The Dark Eldar ships can use mimic engines that hijack the sensor signals from enemy ships and reconfigure them to show an allied ship. This is so powerful that they can approach within very close distances before the ruse is up.
whats the smallest vessel we know is actually warp capable? the tau Manta is capable of some almost-warp trick that lets it make very limited interstellar travel but this seems to not be "true" warp travel (the tau only recently discovered true warp travel and didn't include gellar fields on the test ship....)
the "small" ships form BFG are in the kilometre long range, and their doesn't seem to be anything between. Is it really nothing in between? nothing in the few hundred meter range that is bigger than a manta but still capable of proper warp travel?
The Warhammer Adventures series features multiple small ships, operable by a single crew (Profiteer, Zealot's Heart), which are warp capable, can enter planetary atmospheres, and the latter even has a teleportation array.
The Scriptor is slightly larger, with a crew of four (two of whom are children).
xerxeskingofking wrote: whats the smallest vessel we know is actually warp capable? the tau Manta is capable of some almost-warp trick that lets it make very limited interstellar travel but this seems to not be "true" warp travel (the tau only recently discovered true warp travel and didn't include gellar fields on the test ship....)
the "small" ships form BFG are in the kilometre long range, and their doesn't seem to be anything between. Is it really nothing in between? nothing in the few hundred meter range that is bigger than a manta but still capable of proper warp travel?
The New Dawn from Kill Team Rogue Trader is warp capable, and it's crew is dozens at most, so you'd expect it to be a lot shorter than a kilometre.
xerxeskingofking wrote: whats the smallest vessel we know is actually warp capable? the tau Manta is capable of some almost-warp trick that lets it make very limited interstellar travel but this seems to not be "true" warp travel (the tau only recently discovered true warp travel and didn't include gellar fields on the test ship....)
the "small" ships form BFG are in the kilometre long range, and their doesn't seem to be anything between. Is it really nothing in between? nothing in the few hundred meter range that is bigger than a manta but still capable of proper warp travel?
The New Dawn from Kill Team Rogue Trader is warp capable, and it's crew is dozens at most, so you'd expect it to be a lot shorter than a kilometre.
The ship board that comes with the Rogue Trader Kill team is not the New Dawn. It is simply one of the shuttles (Truehawk) of the New Dawn. The New Dawn is most likely cruiser sized.
Corsairs protect themselves the same way the Rangers do.
If they are originally from a craftworld, they will have a soulstone.
They walk the path of the "outcast" when they are relatively "young" and "edgy", most returning when that path loses its appeal to them. They are a metaphor, in a sense, for 18-25 year old males.
As far as I know, that's not been said anywhere, but then I've not kept up to date with more recent lore as such so I might be wrong.
From what I remember, Kroot are reckoned to have avian ancestry. The way Kroot "shaping" and eating of flesh to change the DNA of the Kroot kindred works, I'd think eggs would make the most sense. Gives more time for a gestation period and different shapes can emerge from an egg.
Hellebore wrote: The Dark Eldar ships can use mimic engines that hijack the sensor signals from enemy ships and reconfigure them to show an allied ship. This is so powerful that they can approach within very close distances before the ruse is up.
That is kinda dumb explanation, though, and should only work on forces that don't do any pre-battle planning. Say, you're a space marine captain and you know for a fact your company doesn't have 3 extra thunderhawks and 6 predators approaching your positions now, what stops you from just firing at sensor signal showing "allied" ship?
That is kinda dumb explanation, though, and should only work on forces that don't do any pre-battle planning. Say, you're a space marine captain and you know for a fact your company doesn't have 3 extra thunderhawks and 6 predators approaching your positions now, what stops you from just firing at sensor signal showing "allied" ship?
Expect its on ships, not the battlefield so the point about Thunderhawks and tanks is moot.
Drukhari don't fight in normal void battles, instead opting to raid trade convoys or lightly defended targets. A trading post that maybe gets visited once every 6 months by an Imperial warship is going to be easy pickings for a Drukhari ship with mimic engines. In Dark Disciple , a Drukhari ship uses mimic engines to hide in the near orbit of a world evacuating in the face of Tyranids using a third party to ferry refugees into their waiting arms. Even then when the mimic engines are damaged when the ship is attacked by the Word Bearers, the Imperial fleet only recognises them as Aeldari being attacked by Chaos and decides to help them.
As far as I know, that's not been said anywhere, but then I've not kept up to date with more recent lore as such so I might be wrong.
From what I remember, Kroot are reckoned to have avian ancestry. The way Kroot "shaping" and eating of flesh to change the DNA of the Kroot kindred works, I'd think eggs would make the most sense. Gives more time for a gestation period and different shapes can emerge from an egg.
There's an article in WD 264 that has Kroot giving birth to live young, specifically by puking them.
That is kinda dumb explanation, though, and should only work on forces that don't do any pre-battle planning.
Or have gak organization or gak hierarchy of command, so the IoM.
Say, you're a space marine captain and you know for a fact your company doesn't have 3 extra thunderhawks and 6 predators approaching your positions now, what stops you from just firing at sensor signal showing "allied" ship?
If your company is the only deployed Imperial force, nothing. But Space Marines rarely fight alone, and if there are deployments of other companies, other Chapters or other Imperial forces, things get murkier.
As far as I know, that's not been said anywhere, but then I've not kept up to date with more recent lore as such so I might be wrong.
From what I remember, Kroot are reckoned to have avian ancestry. The way Kroot "shaping" and eating of flesh to change the DNA of the Kroot kindred works, I'd think eggs would make the most sense. Gives more time for a gestation period and different shapes can emerge from an egg.
There's an article in WD 264 that has Kroot giving birth to live young, specifically by puking them.
That's pretty damn gross is what that is. So do they puke up little grublets that then grow into whatever beastie is being shaped?
Flinty wrote: Childbirth, in general, is quite an icky thing mechanically for live young, regardless of the end they come out of. Eggs are nice and clean really
true, but I think I'm imagining vomiting up lots in one go as opposed to the old terran method. I feel like they'd have to be much smaller to vomit up.
As far as I know, that's not been said anywhere, but then I've not kept up to date with more recent lore as such so I might be wrong.
From what I remember, Kroot are reckoned to have avian ancestry. The way Kroot "shaping" and eating of flesh to change the DNA of the Kroot kindred works, I'd think eggs would make the most sense. Gives more time for a gestation period and different shapes can emerge from an egg.
There's an article in WD 264 that has Kroot giving birth to live young, specifically by puking them.
So like, is the uterus in the chest area? How do they not choke to death?
I'm all for alien physiology, its just I'm trying to work out how this works.
As far as I know, that's not been said anywhere, but then I've not kept up to date with more recent lore as such so I might be wrong.
From what I remember, Kroot are reckoned to have avian ancestry. The way Kroot "shaping" and eating of flesh to change the DNA of the Kroot kindred works, I'd think eggs would make the most sense. Gives more time for a gestation period and different shapes can emerge from an egg.
There's an article in WD 264 that has Kroot giving birth to live young, specifically by puking them.
So like, is the uterus in the chest area? How do they not choke to death?
I'm all for alien physiology, its just I'm trying to work out how this works.
One of their energy storing nymune organs doubles as a womb when needed, and kids come up the same route food goes down, and I guess the actual proceedings happen faster with them than with humans.
NIKEA WAS DUMB THAT'S THE POINT. 
