Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Iron Warriors do attrition, but they generally try and keep their own casualties low, they just don't factor in the attrition of the meatshields. Death Guard, even pre-Heresy, were 100% about tanking the hits themselves.
Watch ABorderPrince's Iron Warriors video it details the Iron Cage battle and shows their tactical doctrine and how they approach warfare. Also, watch the Death Guard video if you want more info about them but I can't remember exactly if the video talks about their tactical doctrine.
iron Warriors https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYwXD-5Dd_Y Death Guard https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HhTK5OodFQ
Your secret is safe with my indifference.
-Percy de Rolo, Critical Role
Given how Corax has transformed himself into some Warp Daemon Primarch, would he have similar difficulties in remaining in Materium as his Daemon Prince Primarch brethren?
Did Mechanicus like some legions more than the others considering that some legions were well stocked with things such as warships and some legions not so much?
I mean Blood Angels had 120000 Astartes and 300 capital ships and 600 escorts. Meanwhile a larger legion World Eaters had only 60 capital ships, a larger legion Luna Wolves a hundred capital ships and 300 escorts and lighter cruisers, near the BA size Space Wolves 60 capitals and 240 escorts.
Why did Mechanicus give unequal amount of supplies for legions?
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: Did Mechanicus like some legions more than the others considering that some legions were well stocked with things such as warships and some legions not so much?
I mean Blood Angels had 120000 Astartes and 300 capital ships and 600 escorts. Meanwhile a larger legion World Eaters had only 60 capital ships, a larger legion Luna Wolves a hundred capital ships and 300 escorts and lighter cruisers, near the BA size Space Wolves 60 capitals and 240 escorts.
Why did Mechanicus give unequal amount of supplies for legions?
What's the point of giving World Eaters capital ships when they'll just waste them with attrition tactics. Also with Horus as Warmaster, Horus's favourites got special treatment, even before the Heresy.
Also, it's Sanguinius. Everyone loved Sanguinius.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/03 20:36:20
I think for the WE it was more a case of:
Emperor: Hey son, sorry I got all your friends killed. Have this fleet and soldiers and go kill. K bye Sure, Sanguinius being pretty and saving his entire legion from turning into creepy vampires gave them an edge but Angron and the WE didn't do themselves any favours in the "not being a terrible person" department. Sanguinius was also not insane, helps when you need to ask the Mechanicum for toys.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/03/03 21:02:18
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: Given how Corax has transformed himself into some Warp Daemon Primarch
Wait, hold up, what's this? Corvus Corax is Chaos-aligned now?
If i recall correctly he show in some night lords novel. For some reason after 10.000 years near the eye of terror hunting traitors he seems to have developed some odd abilities like melting into shadows or into crows.
Not that he's turned to Chaos more like a little nod to the theory Primarch souls where crafted by the emperor from the Warp.
It's some kind of theory people mentioned in the past on the Background section maybe someone who has read the proper novel can shed more light on it.
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: Given how Corax has transformed himself into some Warp Daemon Primarch
Wait, hold up, what's this? Corvus Corax is Chaos-aligned now?
If i recall correctly he show in some night lords novel. For some reason after 10.000 years near the eye of terror hunting traitors he seems to have developed some odd abilities like melting into shadows or into crows.
Not that he's turned to Chaos more like a little nod to the theory Primarch souls where crafted by the emperor from the Warp.
It's some kind of theory people mentioned in the past on the Background section maybe someone who has read the proper novel can shed more light on it.
Word Bearers - "Shadow of the Past" from the "Sons of the Emperor" anthology. They think they're getting picked off by a deamon but it's Corax - and he's after Lorgar .
Why did angron not get killed off when he blatantly told Russ, if he was sane and "moral" he would have probably chopped off the emperors head for being a tyrant? I mean it seems Magnus's transgression post Nikea seems like a trifling thing..
Also... why is the idea of Nikea so dumb and wolves are allowed to keep their psykers "because they wolfy mc wolf fenris psykers.. Honest guvna!" It makes no sense
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
The whole thing with Rune Priest is that they draw power from Fenris instead of directly from the Warp. They don't believe themselves to be psykers, but rather shamans.
But why was The Emperor on board with that?
I can get the Space Wolves themselves being that far up their own arse, but they clearly are psykers. Why did no one call them on the bs?
Argive wrote: Why did angron not get killed off when he blatantly told Russ, if he was sane and "moral" he would have probably chopped off the emperors head for being a tyrant? I mean it seems Magnus's transgression post Nikea seems like a trifling thing..
Also... why is the idea of Nikea so dumb and wolves are allowed to keep their psykers "because they wolfy mc wolf fenris psykers.. Honest guvna!" It makes no sense
Because 1) The Emperor didn't tell Russ to kill Angron, and Russ is loyal to a fault. It's why he followed Horus's (the Emperor's proxy) orders to kill Magnus without a second thought and 2) Because the Emperor is a massive bellend. Nikea was simply political theatre, Magnus was not a favoured son and he needed to be seen as being proactive, whereas Russ and Khan were well liked. The Emperor explicitly told Magnus "Don't do this specific thing" and Magus was "I'ma do the thing", so the Emperor had to chastise him or risk looking weak. The Space Wolves weren't publicly and very conspicuously doing the thing and turning in to gibbering Chaos Spawn, the Thousand Sons were.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/03/04 11:17:32
But it wasn't just the Thousand Sons that were restricted by Nikea.
It restricted all psykers in the Space Marine legions. Blood Angels, White Scars, Ultramarines, everyone had to hang up their psychic hoods.
Except the Space Wolves...
If it had been "Magnus you did the thing we specifically told you not to do, so you lose privileges". It was "everyone loses privileges. Except the Space Wolves"
Tyzarion_Kronius wrote: Did Mechanicus like some legions more than the others considering that some legions were well stocked with things such as warships and some legions not so much?
I mean Blood Angels had 120000 Astartes and 300 capital ships and 600 escorts. Meanwhile a larger legion World Eaters had only 60 capital ships, a larger legion Luna Wolves a hundred capital ships and 300 escorts and lighter cruisers, near the BA size Space Wolves 60 capitals and 240 escorts.
Why did Mechanicus give unequal amount of supplies for legions?
The Dark Angels had their own production facilites. They predated the alliance with Mars, and were equipped with potentially having to fight a war against Mechanicum in mind.
kirotheavenger wrote: But it wasn't just the Thousand Sons that were restricted by Nikea.
It restricted all psykers in the Space Marine legions. Blood Angels, White Scars, Ultramarines, everyone had to hang up their psychic hoods.
Except the Space Wolves...
If it had been "Magnus you did the thing we specifically told you not to do, so you lose privileges". It was "everyone loses privileges. Except the Space Wolves"
Again political theater, Nikea was designed to censure the Thousands Sons, without publicity acknowledging they were censuring the Thousand Sons.
kirotheavenger wrote: But it wasn't just the Thousand Sons that were restricted by Nikea.
It restricted all psykers in the Space Marine legions. Blood Angels, White Scars, Ultramarines, everyone had to hang up their psychic hoods.
Except the Space Wolves...
If it had been "Magnus you did the thing we specifically told you not to do, so you lose privileges". It was "everyone loses privileges. Except the Space Wolves"
Some legions used psykers but the Tsons had psykers at almost every level of legion structure. Hell they even took mortal psykers as apprentices. The Khan was very much on Mangus's side during Nikea but Mortarion and the Wolves gave "stronger" arguments and cos of the whole warp storms shattering humanity, many psykers ruling lost planets and murdering people with wizard powers, the general consensus was psykers were bad.
Plus as we all know and love, the Imperium is run by morons including chief moron, the Emperor, who was a psyker along with his good pal Malcador.
Magnus did plenty wrong but combined with superstition and being generally moronic we got Nikea which just made everything worse for everyone.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/04 15:02:09
kirotheavenger wrote: But it wasn't just the Thousand Sons that were restricted by Nikea. It restricted all psykers in the Space Marine legions. Blood Angels, White Scars, Ultramarines, everyone had to hang up their psychic hoods. Except the Space Wolves...
If it had been "Magnus you did the thing we specifically told you not to do, so you lose privileges". It was "everyone loses privileges. Except the Space Wolves"
Some legions used psykers but the Tsons had psykers at almost every level of legion structure. Hell they even took mortal psykers as apprentices. The Khan was very much on Mangus's side during Nikea but Mortarion and the Wolves gave "stronger" arguments and cos of the whole warp storms shattering humanity, many psykers ruling lost planets and murdering people with wizard powers, the general consensus was psykers were bad. Plus as we all know and love, the Imperium is run by morons including chief moron, the Emperor, who was a psyker along with his good pal Malcador. Magnus did plenty wrong but combined with superstition and being generally moronic we got Nikea which just made everything worse for everyone.
In fairness, the Emperor was a very special exception. I dunno if this is old lore or grognard brain, but the Emperor's soul was unique in that it didn't have any "negative" aspects of the warp in it, so Daemons (and the chaos gods) found his soul to be impossible to interact with (and thus possess), As his pseudonym implies, he was anathema to them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/04 15:05:22
And there's a good point made in Text to Speech device series by the Emperor that the opposite decision on Nikea might have ended up with some loyalist Primarchs being on traitor side during the Heresy.
My question isn't why were psykers banned, because that all makes sense.
The question is why this didn't apply to Space Wolves when it applied to everyone else. Leman Russ may have claimed they weren't psykers but it should be immediately obvious to absolutely everyone that that's a crock of gak.
Doesn't that fly in the face of not wanting to look weak? If they then allow a legion to openly flaunt their violations of the edict? Not only that, but the Space Wolfs were given the duty/honour of observing that other legions were following the edict properly!
How weak would the a government look if they form a task force of openly fraudulent businessmen to enforce a new tax evasion law?
Everyone would cry it was a farce.
The Space Wolves say they don't use psykers, they honestly believe that Rune Priest are not psykers, that is the opposite of "openly".
The rest of the Great Crusade either believes them or pretends to believe them and everyone is happy (except the Thousand Sons, but no one likes the Thousand Sons).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/04 16:29:33
The Wolves use the power of the Wyrd, which was basically the spirit of Fenris itself. The whole point of the "Wolves not being pskyers but they actually are" is to show the hypocrisy of the Council of Nikea and the Wolves hatred of the Tsons. The Wolves had their own mutants in the form of the Wulfen. It's to highlight just how dumb and tragic the Heresy was and how easily it could have been prevented. Plus, all the Primarchs had a degree of psychic power but many just thought it was a natural mutation. Some were overt like Magnus's power and Sanguinius/Kurze's premonitions. Some were basically just that the Primarchs had unnaturally powerful charisma.
An important thing to note is that the Librarians were an experiment, not a fixture of the Legions. Russ, Mortarion, Dorn, and Corax all refused to fight alongside the Tsons, who consistently failed to control their psyker powers.Only Magnus, Sanguinius and the Khan supported the Librarius.
In the end, the Council was basically a decades-long plot by the Dark Gods to remove a powerful weapon from the arsenal of the Emperor. By the Siege pretty much all the legions, bar the World Eaters for obvious reasons, were using psykers and sorcery.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/04 18:14:17
Yeah but just like SW dont believe their rune priests to be psykers.. Magnus believed his dudes are basicaly mathematicians as psykery is science to him.
The point is. It deoesnt matter what they believe. The point is all one ahd to say to rus is:
"but bruh.. your main man thats talking crap about psykers.. is a psyker"
Or you telling me not one of the other primarchs/ Fleet commanders would have raised the fact russ is still using psykers despite the edict to get ahead and elevate themselves at his expense? Like Mortarion.. ?
I get they all didn't like magnus much. But my lord, thats one glaring illogical plot hole someone as smart as magnus would have obviously attacked and destroyed.. The whole Nikea thing is so weak sauce..
On another tangent:
**Spoiler alert** Im currently on Betrayer in the HH series. I still for the life of me cannot figure out why Horus would not snap Erebus in half as soon as he found out he orchestrated him getting stabbed with the magic primarch killing sword.. He doesn't strike me as the kind a guy that would let that pass.. like ever...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/03/05 03:24:29
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Oh Magnus was very well aware of what he was doing, the Emperor told him and warned him after all. Magnus actively documented, researched and experimented with the mysteries of the Warp, to the point he was using daemonic familiars. The Emperor didn't have any issue with the Space Wolves, he had a very big issue with Magnus disregarding his warnings regarding the Warp.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/05 04:54:44
Tyran wrote: Oh Magnus was very well aware of what he was doing, the Emperor told him and warned him after all. Magnus actively documented, researched and experimented with the mysteries of the Warp, to the point he was using daemonic familiars. The Emperor didn't have any issue with the Space Wolves, he had a very big issue with Magnus disregarding his warnings regarding the Warp.
I dont think anyone disagrees that magnus disregarded the edict. The point is every legion adhered to it (some much more reluctantly than others) disbanding their librarius and having chaplains/watchers watch them etc. Dorn even imprisoned all of his librarians I think. Anyway, the point is in all of this nobody looked at rune priests and pointed out they are also psykers. I dont care if they believe their psyker powers come from fenris or that they genuinely believe they are vikings and space is magic land...
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
It could be, that they had already taken into account the possibility of the T'sons breaking Nikea, and with the wolves being the already appointed candidate to censor/eradicate them, they could have turned a blind eye to Rune Priests as they were useful for the Wolves in this specific circumstance, being able to provide them with some element of defence against the T'sons psychic attacks.
I do wonder what the custodes and sisters of silence thought of the hypocrisy of the Rune priests using their powers on Prospero, whether it was a necessary evil or they shouldn't have used them under any circumstance considering the reason they and the wolves were there in the first place - this is all of course assuming they see through the BS that the rune priests are drawing their power from Fenris and not the warp.
My hobby instagram account: @the_shroud_of_vigilance My Shroud of Vigilance Hobby update blog for me detailed updates and lore on the faction:
Blog
If you already planned to use the Wolves as the enforcement of the edict, wouldn't it be more important that they're seen to be following it rather than openly flouting it?
Bear in mind the Wolves involvement wasn't limited to bringing the Thousand Sons to heel. Firstly, they were one of the biggest proponents of the ruling in the first place. Secondly, they were chosen to send contingents of Space Wolves (each containing a wolf priest!) to the other legions to observe them and make sure they were obeying the new ruling.
The White Scars also had the whole 'storm shaman' thing going, they were just honest about where the power ultimately came from.
TBH with a lot of the detail added in the Horus Heresy books The Emperor looks less like the legendary figure that united Earth and conquered that galaxy, and more like an utterly incompetent fool without a shred of ability to predict obvious consequences of his actions.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/05 10:58:59
Eldar- 4436 pts
