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Kayback wrote:
Besides maybe the Grey Knights which SM chapter is closest to the Inquisition?

I'm wanting to make a super Deathwatch heavy army. I am unlikely to every play it again but I want some sort of lore to look into to see how I could maybe go about it

Sadly, GW retconned the Deathwatch having any connection with the Ordo Xenos.

The Exorcists are Grey Knight "Successors" and are basically a SM chapter controlled by the Inquisition proper (as opposed to the usual Astartes autonomy). The Red Hunters are also strongly aligned with the Inquisition, bearing the Inquisitorial seal, and are basically a pocket Space Marine chapter of the Inquisition, even if "on paper" they should be independent.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Sadly, GW retconned the Deathwatch having any connection with the Ordo Xenos.

.

Wait what?

When? I've only just picked up a DW kill team box that I was planning on using for parts to sprinkle over my squad leaders. They're full of Inquisition insignia.

I mean I knew my SOB, GK Witch-hunter/Daemonhunter Codex from... 3rd? we're out of date but I didn't think they were that bad .

Guess I'm just gonna have to roll with "rule of cool"

Yeah, it's a stupid retcon. I agree you should just ignore it and keep your Deathwatch as Ordo Xenos aligned.

Codex: Deathwatch (8th ed.):

'The Ordo Xenos is the arm of the
Inquisition tasked with defeating the alien
in all its forms, and as such it is counted
amongst the Deathwatch’s foremost allies.
The two organisations frequently work
side by side, both on the battlefield and
in the strategium. There have been times
when a watch fortress’ commander has
been not a Space Marine, but a Lord
Inquisitor – and conversely times when
the esoteric forces of the Inquisition
have been led by a battle-brother of
the Deathwatch.'
pg.8

'The icon of the Deathwatch is worn
proudly by all Deathwatch battlebrothers
upon their left shoulder
guard. The stylized letter ‘I’ in this
icon indicates their close ties to the
Ordo Xenos of the Inquisition.'
pg.12

What exactly causes the use of Psyker powers to corrupt and sometimes mutate their user into an unrecognizable being from one's former self?

And isn't it a false dichotomy that psyker powers = becoming a dangerous corrupted and mutated being?

Daemonic possession. Psykers tap into hell for their powers, and an untrained one is going to attract the attention of its inhabitants.

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
What exactly causes the use of Psyker powers to corrupt and sometimes mutate their user into an unrecognizable being from one's former self?

And isn't it a false dichotomy that psyker powers = becoming a dangerous corrupted and mutated being?

When you tap into the Warp, not only are you opening a barn door the size of a small moon for Daemons to possess you, it's also like lighting the barn on fire as a signal light. The warp is a reflection of all soul bearing entities, and the corruption of the Warp leads to daemons being birthed, who want nothing more than to find a breach into the Materium to wreak havock.

And it's not a false dichotomy, it's a very, very true one. When you expose yourself to the warp, it's a matter of WHEN, not if. To not be possessed and/or corrupted requires esoteric technology (Ghosthelms, Aegis Wards), genetic enhancement/predisposition (Farseers, Navigators, Grey Knights) and an absolutely resolute will, the kind that very few (especially humans) will possess. There is a good reason why Librarians wear psychic hoods, why Farseers take great pains to train, and why the Commissar always has a bolt pistol at the ready while near Sanctioned Psykers.

Navigators are often said to be limited on how long they can work before they burn out - either by possession resulting in their termination; or their minds being tormented so far that they cannot continue to perform their task.


Also don't forget the warp isn't just used for powers, its also used for space travel by the Imperium. Geller fields are the only barrier that prevents the warp swarming all over their ships. A damaged field can easily let demons in to run riot and steal the ships crew and ship. Of course the Geller field only keeps demons out; it doesn't expel them, so if you've got someone on board who is already possessed it won't stop them.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
What exactly causes the use of Psyker powers to corrupt and sometimes mutate their user into an unrecognizable being from one's former self?

And isn't it a false dichotomy that psyker powers = becoming a dangerous corrupted and mutated being?

When you tap into the Warp, not only are you opening a barn door the size of a small moon for Daemons to possess you, it's also like lighting the barn on fire as a signal light. The warp is a reflection of all soul bearing entities, and the corruption of the Warp leads to daemons being birthed, who want nothing more than to find a breach into the Materium to wreak havock.

And it's not a false dichotomy, it's a very, very true one. When you expose yourself to the warp, it's a matter of WHEN, not if. To not be possessed and/or corrupted requires esoteric technology (Ghosthelms, Aegis Wards), genetic enhancement/predisposition (Farseers, Navigators, Grey Knights) and an absolutely resolute will, the kind that very few (especially humans) will possess. There is a good reason why Librarians wear psychic hoods, why Farseers take great pains to train, and why the Commissar always has a bolt pistol at the ready while near Sanctioned Psykers.

Magnus didn't become possessed. And the Eldar used psyker powers quite successfully as well.

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
What exactly causes the use of Psyker powers to corrupt and sometimes mutate their user into an unrecognizable being from one's former self?

And isn't it a false dichotomy that psyker powers = becoming a dangerous corrupted and mutated being?

When you tap into the Warp, not only are you opening a barn door the size of a small moon for Daemons to possess you, it's also like lighting the barn on fire as a signal light. The warp is a reflection of all soul bearing entities, and the corruption of the Warp leads to daemons being birthed, who want nothing more than to find a breach into the Materium to wreak havock.

And it's not a false dichotomy, it's a very, very true one. When you expose yourself to the warp, it's a matter of WHEN, not if. To not be possessed and/or corrupted requires esoteric technology (Ghosthelms, Aegis Wards), genetic enhancement/predisposition (Farseers, Navigators, Grey Knights) and an absolutely resolute will, the kind that very few (especially humans) will possess. There is a good reason why Librarians wear psychic hoods, why Farseers take great pains to train, and why the Commissar always has a bolt pistol at the ready while near Sanctioned Psykers.

Magnus didn't become possessed. And the Eldar used psyker powers quite successfully as well.

Did you miss the part where I said "To not be possessed and/or corrupted requires esoteric technology (Ghosthelms, Aegis Wards), genetic enhancement/predisposition (Farseers, Navigators, Grey Knights) and an absolutely resolute will, the kind that very few (especially humans) will possess." Both Magus and Farseers have the genetic disposition and resolute will. The last time the Eldar used their Psychic powers willy-nilly, Slaanesh got murderfethed into existence. That's why Farseers and Warlocks have extreme discipline in the use of their powers.

 Overread wrote:
Navigators are often said to be limited on how long they can work before they burn out - either by possession resulting in their termination; or their minds being tormented so far that they cannot continue to perform their task.

In my head being a navigator for an imperial ship would be like if you were to navigate a submarine by sticking your head out a hole and peering blindly into the sea with a pair of goggles on. And you're sort of looking for a bright light that will lead you home. Also your head is bleeding so you constantly have sharks trying to tear your head off. But it's not sharks it's horrifying daemonic entities. And they'll getcha.

60 percent of Astartes Chapters are of Ultramarines descent. Is there any info on how many are Imperial Fists or Dark Angels descendants for instance?

10%?

I don't know about the current numbers, the only thing I can think of is the Second Founding ratios.

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
What exactly causes the use of Psyker powers to corrupt and sometimes mutate their user into an unrecognizable being from one's former self?

And isn't it a false dichotomy that psyker powers = becoming a dangerous corrupted and mutated being?

When you tap into the Warp, not only are you opening a barn door the size of a small moon for Daemons to possess you, it's also like lighting the barn on fire as a signal light. The warp is a reflection of all soul bearing entities, and the corruption of the Warp leads to daemons being birthed, who want nothing more than to find a breach into the Materium to wreak havock.

And it's not a false dichotomy, it's a very, very true one. When you expose yourself to the warp, it's a matter of WHEN, not if. To not be possessed and/or corrupted requires esoteric technology (Ghosthelms, Aegis Wards), genetic enhancement/predisposition (Farseers, Navigators, Grey Knights) and an absolutely resolute will, the kind that very few (especially humans) will possess. There is a good reason why Librarians wear psychic hoods, why Farseers take great pains to train, and why the Commissar always has a bolt pistol at the ready while near Sanctioned Psykers.

Magnus didn't become possessed. And the Eldar used psyker powers quite successfully as well.

I mean Magnus is now a literal daemon prince who’s soul is owned by a Chaos God. Ok he didn’t technically get ‘possessed’, but that distinction has not a huge amount of practical difference.

And giving the tipping point in Magnus’s story is in part him accepting a power boost from Tzeentch when he was distracted, I think he’s a great example of the problems with using psychic powers to freely...

I wouldn't say it is a matter of when.

Yes it is a risk, but one that can be heavily mitigated to the point of being a statistical anomaly with training. Untrained psykers are an open door for Daemons, but trained ones are the equivalent of not only putting a lock on the door, but an active security system too.

 Tyran wrote:
I wouldn't say it is a matter of when.

Yes it is a risk, but one that can be heavily mitigated to the point of being a statistical anomaly with training. Untrained psykers are an open door for Daemons, but trained ones are the equivalent of not only putting a lock on the door, but an active security system too.

And as anyone who watched The Lockpicking Lawyer and various PenTest Youtube channels will know, locks and security systems are worse than worthless.

 Tyran wrote:
I wouldn't say it is a matter of when.

Yes it is a risk, but one that can be heavily mitigated to the point of being a statistical anomaly with training. Untrained psykers are an open door for Daemons, but trained ones are the equivalent of not only putting a lock on the door, but an active security system too.

To some extent though that’s because only the ones with the requisite strength of mind get trained in the first place. Most just get killed or fed to the Throne...

Soulbinding and things like psychic hoods also help massively.

 Tyran wrote:
I wouldn't say it is a matter of when.

Yes it is a risk, but one that can be heavily mitigated to the point of being a statistical anomaly with training. Untrained psykers are an open door for Daemons, but trained ones are the equivalent of not only putting a lock on the door, but an active security system too.

This is correct, there are plenty Psykers who use their abilities and don't get possessed. There are many inquisitors who are psykers and all of the Navis Nobilite are psykers. They don't get followed around by a commissar...not that a commissar would have a hope in hell of beating a hostile psyker anyway.

Most of the accidents with trained psykers happen because they are pushed too hard whether it is to survive or by another person. Under normal circumstances they would be totally fine...however when you have a hoard of tyranids coming to tear you to pieces there isn't a lot of choice.

Well, if you have a horde of Tyranids coming to nomnom you, Daemonic possession is actually very unlikely thanks to the Shadow in the Warp.

Of course, in such scenario is not only the Psyker crippled by the Shadow in the Warp, but psychic contact with the Shadow in the Warp can be just as deadly as daemonic possession.

Is there any figures on how many transport craft/ fighter craft, etc... Imperial Navy vessels like Dictarors and Nemesis classes can carry?

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
Is there any figures on how many transport craft/ fighter craft, etc... Imperial Navy vessels like Dictarors and Nemesis classes can carry?

Several squadrons, but not much more detail than that. Say maybe 20 off vessel in a squadron?

Given the size of cruisers at 3km or so, they would likely have a significant shuttle fleet even on standard vessel, let alone carriers. I'd guess the number of light shuttles like the argus would easily be several dozen, plus a number of heavier lifters of "commercial airliner" size bigger for bulk transportation.

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
What exactly causes the use of Psyker powers to corrupt and sometimes mutate their user into an unrecognizable being from one's former self?

And isn't it a false dichotomy that psyker powers = becoming a dangerous corrupted and mutated being?

Control, or the lack thereof.

Remember the hellscape context of 40k.

One day, you’re just a pre-pubescent kid on a world. Life is harsh, opportunities are non-existent. The next day, hormones start kicking in, and your powers manifest for the first time. This could be something as relatively innocuous as being able to lift way more than before when you concentrate. It could be you find people particularly keen to help when you ask them. But then, it could be catastrophic. Maybe you burst into flames, cause your bully to implode etc.

You know nothing about these powers. But they’ll see you run out of town and hunted. Yet...with your powers, you can fight back. Just a little more concentration, and you force your pursuers to turn on each other. You’re able to direct the fire at people and objects etc.

As your powers develop, you become more noticeable in the Warp. This attracts Daemons. You’re running the risk of possession, but have no idea. Maybe it’s just a straight “yoink, it’s my meatsuit now, Dave”. Perhaps it’s a more cunning entity, who feeds you ever greater power whilst claiming to be your best friend.

Either way, you’re now a direct threat to a world. The Daemon can use you as a portal for it and more of its kind to manifest. Depending on your strength, that could be for mere moments before you burn out, or it could become an irreversible planetary breach.

And there’s seemingly zero way for this to be predicted, either in terms of your first manifestation and your actual potential.

If you’re “lucky”, you’ll be identified and shipped off in the Black Ships. There you’ll serve The Emperor, one way or another....

Psykers. They’re nothing if not unpredictable.

Assuming the Emperor accidentally read telepathically Khor Phaeron's and Erebus' minds and realized they're fullblown Chaos supporters and arranged for them to die suddenly to unknown causes early on in the Great Crusade, would Lorgar have been salvageable as a Loyalist primarch?

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
Assuming the Emperor accidentally read telepathically Khor Phaeron's and Erebus' minds and realized they're fullblown Chaos supporters and arranged for them to die suddenly to unknown causes early on in the Great Crusade, would Lorgar have been salvageable as a Loyalist primarch?

No. Lorgar was inherently flawed at the genetic level, he had a literally biological desire to worship something greater than himself. Same for his Gene-sons. Whether this was due to the machinations of the Chaos Gods, or whether the Emperor planned the entire Heresy from the get-go to cull the Primarchs and Astartes and it just happened too soon, we can't say.

I know a lot of people sometimes say it was way too convenient for each Primarch to just so happen to land on an Inhabited Human world that just so happened to neatly align with their programmed biological predispositions, but that's easily explained by either the Chaos Gods wanting to mess with the Emperor down the road, or the Emperor's last ditch attempt at saving the Primarchs when he couldn't stop them being yeeted, he instead guided them though the warp to the right places.

So based on that, I would say there were three entirely irredeemable Primarchs who would have fallen eventually.

Lorgar, Kurze and Angron.

Without getting stabbed by Chaos magic blade, Horus would have remained loyal. Without finding Laer blade Fulgrim would have stayed loyal. Loyal Horus would snowball into loyal Perturabo and Magnus who would have been just brought to power the Golden Throne while the Emperor fixes Magnus' mistakes. Not believing a Xeno Cabal like a gak-for-brains idiot would have meant loyal Alpharius and Omegon. And Mortarion wouldn't take chances joining Lorgar, Angron and Kurze in some doomed, petty revolt.

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
So based on that, I would say there were three entirely irredeemable Primarchs who would have fallen eventually.

Lorgar, Kurze and Angron.

Without getting stabbed by Chaos magic blade, Horus would have remained loyal. Without finding Laer blade Fulgrim would have stayed loyal. Loyal Horus would snowball into loyal Perturabo and Magnus who would have been just brought to power the Golden Throne while the Emperor fixes Magnus' mistakes. Not believing a Xeno Cabal like a gak-for-brains idiot would have meant loyal Alpharius and Omegon. And Mortarion wouldn't take chances joining Lorgar, Angron and Kurze in some doomed, petty revolt.

I agree with Angron, he was simply a failure on so many levels. That being said, out of all the primarchs he was the only one with a legitimate reason for rebelling against the emperor, the rest were either compelled, tricked, or just petty.

Kurze I disagree, he could have turned out ok if he'd had someone to help him with his visions and also be a bit less rules lawyery.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
So based on that, I would say there were three entirely irredeemable Primarchs who would have fallen eventually.

Lorgar, Kurze and Angron.

Without getting stabbed by Chaos magic blade, Horus would have remained loyal. Without finding Laer blade Fulgrim would have stayed loyal. Loyal Horus would snowball into loyal Perturabo and Magnus who would have been just brought to power the Golden Throne while the Emperor fixes Magnus' mistakes. Not believing a Xeno Cabal like a gak-for-brains idiot would have meant loyal Alpharius and Omegon. And Mortarion wouldn't take chances joining Lorgar, Angron and Kurze in some doomed, petty revolt.

I agree with Angron, he was simply a failure on so many levels. That being said, out of all the primarchs he was the only one with a legitimate reason for rebelling against the emperor, the rest were either compelled, tricked, or just petty.

Kurze I disagree, he could have turned out ok if he'd had someone to help him with his visions and also be a bit less rules lawyery.

And if I was the Emperor, after the Nails killed Angron, I woulf have gotten rid of the World Eaters by sending them in a suicide mission against a big Waaaagh wave or something like that.

World Eaters were so brutal that I think they honestly were a detriment to the Crusade as a whole.

The World Eaters methods were sound logic (in a twisted sort of way). A planet can't rebel if there is no-one on the planet left to rebel. If you need to kill 1 person to save 2 down the line, the same applies to killing a billion to save 2 billion down the line, same logic as the Night Lords.

But killing planetary populations breeds resentment and disloyalty among subjects. A mad killer gets the respect that mad killers get. Which is none.

Ultramarine approach in making sure the planet is better off than it was before is much more sound and helps preventing rebellions. After all if life is now better with the new government, why risk that and rebel.

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
But killing planetary populations breeds resentment and disloyalty among subjects. A mad killer gets the respect that mad killers get. Which is none.

Ultramarine approach in making sure the planet is better off than it was before is much more sound and helps preventing rebellions. After all if life is now better with the new government, why risk that and rebel.

If you let a population get fat and content, they will feel they no longer need to be compliant (see Kreig pre-apocalypse for example). If you make even the thought of rebellion terrifying, they won't attempt it.