Martel732 wrote: Any events that happen on 6s are great at slowing the game down, but poor at affecting the game. I often skip overwatch, etc to give myself more play time.
DttfE. says hi.
It's one thing when it as a mechanic is limited to sniper units. It's a whole other thing if you need to check the shooting off a 30 boyz blob...
Yeah, I'm skipping about 1/3 of my rolls each game approximately. I don't take FNP rolls on DC. I don't take overwatch very often, etc. I've never had to do that in any previous edition. I sometimes don't even fire rapid fire on a moving unit outside rapid fire.
And then he wonders why he loses & posts about how terrible his BA are....
BTW Stephen Box does the same thing.
1st, Who?
Is this some You Tube or tourney guy you all worship?
2nd, You mean there's another out there complaining their armies crap all the time & then revealing he doesn't even make use of his forces special rules?
The OP for this thread probably should have defined exactly what the problem was before starting this 11-page monstrosity. Instead, we get some vague allusions to some players (who? how many?) think that the codex is too big while also making a suggestion that other books should be rolled into it making it bigger.
I don't have no expiriance with rolling +6 FNP, but I do have expiriance rolling +4 and +5 invs. And most of the time rolling +5 invs doesn't matter much either. The damage incoming is just too big for it to matter, unless it is something like a squad of paladins with super human physilogy on. rolling 14 +5 invs doing 2-3 dmg each on 5 termintors, is just adding extra rolling to the game.
Kanluwen wrote: Can't necessarily point the success to players alone though on Sisters' battlebox. There was definitely scalpers/"investment buyers" going on there.
catbarf wrote:I do think that trying to draw meaningful differences between virtually identical armies (all the Space Marine variants) is a major source of bloat for the game. Going back to a single codex, with subfaction traits and maybe a special unit for each major chapter, would dramatically reduce the rules bloat and provide more design space for other factions.
Like I said earlier, I'd make the other stuff supplements. DA, BA, and Wolves can easily be utilized as supplemental books in the vein of the newer examples. Move some of their units into the generic pool(others have mentioned it, but there's no way that only Blood Angels have Librarian Dreadnoughts or Dark Angels have biker champions/apothecaries or terminator champions/apothecaries), the remainder can be in the supplement proper.
We don't need Baal Predators, Crusader Squads, Murderfangs, etc across all the Chapters--but the supplement sizes wouldn't be too wild if they were to be added in that way.
So you want me to have to pay for (& carry around) 2 books in order to play my SW/DA? Do you work for GW??? Because that pricing scheme seems familiar.....
Seriously, if you're going to waste time printing a SW "supplement" & charging me $30+? Just reprint everything from the basic SM codex the wolves also use alongside the wolfy stuff & sell me 1 book at full codex price. (just like now)
Repeat process for BA, DA, IH, WS, etc. if there's enough stuff to warrant doing a supplement.
Nah If I were GW, I would make the SW player buy the core marine book, a WD with initial set of SW rules, a PA style extended rule set, and then over the year droped additional units and special characters splashed around WD, other factions expansions. If an orc or eldar can be made to buy models for SW and dark eldar . Then why not put an update rule for Logan Grimnar in to PA 11, that has templars fighting orcs.
This way people would have to buy rules constantly. You could even put game changes in to those books, and later reprint them in CA, but because they wouldn't allign with all the books from prior year, some of the WD and expansions would still have to be bought, if one would want to have the full set of them.
It could be a glorious thing for sells deparament.
The big reason to have the marine books separate is so they can be point independent.
To account for there difference in rules and ability to modify how units function.
I think if GW where doing that then it would cut down on bloat with the books rather than add more.
I think at this point the difference in marine chapters is way to big with all the bonuses, and how they simply seem to get more than other comparable unit in other factions.
I do think its pushing the game towards a breaking point :(
Karol wrote: Nah If I were GW, I would make the SW player buy the core marine book, a WD with initial set of SW rules, a PA style extended rule set, and then over the year droped additional units and special characters splashed around WD, other factions expansions. If an orc or eldar can be made to buy models for SW and dark eldar . Then why not put an update rule for Logan Grimnar in to PA 11, that has templars fighting orcs.
This way people would have to buy rules constantly. You could even put game changes in to those books, and later reprint them in CA, but because they wouldn't allign with all the books from prior year, some of the WD and expansions would still have to be bought, if one would want to have the full set of them.
It could be a glorious thing for sells deparament.
And if you were GW I'd tell you this:
Push it too far & you'll find out that I don't really have a problem with piracy.
I prefer to just buy one complete book on the subject.
I already don't have any problem skipping books like Vigilus or PA, or WD & just doing without the extra stuff.
But if you fragment the army into unplayable bits I'll just pirate it all.
I don't play Horus Heresy, but I do have some of the books for it. I really like that general approach for marines. Have one core book with all the main unit entries and maybe the unique rules for like, Ultramarines. Then have a book that's basically just unique datasheets and rules for specific chapters.
The first book would be perfectly playable and *should* be balanced against whatever variant content you might want to use from the second book. The second book should expand your options but not up your power, basically.
There really are a ton of units being reprinted that just... don't need to be unique. Long fangs can just be devastators. Wolf scouts can just be scouts. Libby dreads should be available to everyone. Baal predators... I mean, are there really no other chapters that thought of slapping some extra flamey flamers on a predator? Sanguinary Guard can just be vanguard vets if you simply make their wargear a generic option for all vanguard vets. Even Death Company and Wulfen can *probably* be lumped together as "Gene Mutants" or whatever. I know the models and rules look different, but conceptually they're both basically just extra angry marines.
So put everything you reasonably can into the first book, and then put special characters and really unusual stuff like thunderwolves into the second book. At that point, you could expand chapter tactics to make whatever other tweaks feel appropriate. You could have the Dark Angels chapter tactics include a Death Wing type rule that only applies to terminators. You could give Red Scorpion sergeants an Apothecary-esque rule.
Wyldhunt wrote: Baal predators... I mean, are there really no other chapters that thought of slapping some extra flamey flamers on a predator?
The Predator Infernus already has the turret flamer covered.
Salamanders used to be able to take sponson flamers.
Which just leaves the turret assault cannons. Other Chapters can bolt assault cannons on to Razorbacks and Land Raiders, but not Predators for some reason?
Even if assault cannon Predators were somehow unique to Blood Angels, we have examples of non-Dark Angels fielding Mortis Dreadnoughts, so the same explanations could easily be used.
Kanluwen wrote: Can't necessarily point the success to players alone though on Sisters' battlebox. There was definitely scalpers/"investment buyers" going on there.
catbarf wrote:I do think that trying to draw meaningful differences between virtually identical armies (all the Space Marine variants) is a major source of bloat for the game. Going back to a single codex, with subfaction traits and maybe a special unit for each major chapter, would dramatically reduce the rules bloat and provide more design space for other factions.
Like I said earlier, I'd make the other stuff supplements. DA, BA, and Wolves can easily be utilized as supplemental books in the vein of the newer examples. Move some of their units into the generic pool(others have mentioned it, but there's no way that only Blood Angels have Librarian Dreadnoughts or Dark Angels have biker champions/apothecaries or terminator champions/apothecaries), the remainder can be in the supplement proper.
We don't need Baal Predators, Crusader Squads, Murderfangs, etc across all the Chapters--but the supplement sizes wouldn't be too wild if they were to be added in that way.
So you want me to have to pay for (& carry around) 2 books in order to play my SW/DA? Do you work for GW??? Because that pricing scheme seems familiar.....
Seriously, if you're going to waste time printing a SW "supplement" & charging me $30+? Just reprint everything from the basic SM codex the wolves also use alongside the wolfy stuff & sell me 1 book at full codex price. (just like now)
Repeat process for BA, DA, IH, WS, etc. if there's enough stuff to warrant doing a supplement.
So same situation as now except rather than buying a half assed campaign book and a specliased Codex you get a Codex for any and all marines plus a dedicated (and cheaper than half assed camapign) lore book with all the actually unique units and rules for the Wolves
Seriously is it just a status symbol for some players to be a sub-sub faction with a Codex?
Kanluwen wrote: Can't necessarily point the success to players alone though on Sisters' battlebox. There was definitely scalpers/"investment buyers" going on there.
catbarf wrote:I do think that trying to draw meaningful differences between virtually identical armies (all the Space Marine variants) is a major source of bloat for the game. Going back to a single codex, with subfaction traits and maybe a special unit for each major chapter, would dramatically reduce the rules bloat and provide more design space for other factions.
Like I said earlier, I'd make the other stuff supplements. DA, BA, and Wolves can easily be utilized as supplemental books in the vein of the newer examples. Move some of their units into the generic pool(others have mentioned it, but there's no way that only Blood Angels have Librarian Dreadnoughts or Dark Angels have biker champions/apothecaries or terminator champions/apothecaries), the remainder can be in the supplement proper.
We don't need Baal Predators, Crusader Squads, Murderfangs, etc across all the Chapters--but the supplement sizes wouldn't be too wild if they were to be added in that way.
So you want me to have to pay for (& carry around) 2 books in order to play my SW/DA? Do you work for GW??? Because that pricing scheme seems familiar.....
Seriously, if you're going to waste time printing a SW "supplement" & charging me $30+? Just reprint everything from the basic SM codex the wolves also use alongside the wolfy stuff & sell me 1 book at full codex price. (just like now)
Repeat process for BA, DA, IH, WS, etc. if there's enough stuff to warrant doing a supplement.
So same situation as now except rather than buying a half assed campaign book and a specliased Codex you get a Codex for any and all marines plus a dedicated (and cheaper than half assed camapign) lore book with all the actually unique units and rules for the Wolves
Seriously is it just a status symbol for some players to be a sub-sub faction with a Codex?
Some sub sub factions have more history than most factions in this game. I know you don't like it and it makes you mad, but that's how it is.
Martel732 wrote: 85% of the time, there's no reason to take the 6+++ FNP on DC. It just wastes time. I guess it's not optional though.
Stephen Box is a very successful tournament player. His BA victories are against a lot of elite castles, though.
17% of the time there's every reason to roll it. You're artificially wasting points if you look at it that way, they're priced that 1/6 of the time the shrug off those wounds.
Kanluwen wrote: Can't necessarily point the success to players alone though on Sisters' battlebox. There was definitely scalpers/"investment buyers" going on there.
catbarf wrote:I do think that trying to draw meaningful differences between virtually identical armies (all the Space Marine variants) is a major source of bloat for the game. Going back to a single codex, with subfaction traits and maybe a special unit for each major chapter, would dramatically reduce the rules bloat and provide more design space for other factions.
Like I said earlier, I'd make the other stuff supplements. DA, BA, and Wolves can easily be utilized as supplemental books in the vein of the newer examples. Move some of their units into the generic pool(others have mentioned it, but there's no way that only Blood Angels have Librarian Dreadnoughts or Dark Angels have biker champions/apothecaries or terminator champions/apothecaries), the remainder can be in the supplement proper.
We don't need Baal Predators, Crusader Squads, Murderfangs, etc across all the Chapters--but the supplement sizes wouldn't be too wild if they were to be added in that way.
So you want me to have to pay for (& carry around) 2 books in order to play my SW/DA? Do you work for GW??? Because that pricing scheme seems familiar.....
Seriously, if you're going to waste time printing a SW "supplement" & charging me $30+? Just reprint everything from the basic SM codex the wolves also use alongside the wolfy stuff & sell me 1 book at full codex price. (just like now)
Repeat process for BA, DA, IH, WS, etc. if there's enough stuff to warrant doing a supplement.
So same situation as now except rather than buying a half assed campaign book and a specliased Codex you get a Codex for any and all marines plus a dedicated (and cheaper than half assed camapign) lore book with all the actually unique units and rules for the Wolves
Seriously is it just a status symbol for some players to be a sub-sub faction with a Codex?
Some sub sub factions have more history than most factions in this game. I know you don't like it and it makes you mad, but that's how it is.
So is it a status symbol for you? Or something else. What is it that makes you NEED a Codex.
Kanluwen wrote: Can't necessarily point the success to players alone though on Sisters' battlebox. There was definitely scalpers/"investment buyers" going on there.
catbarf wrote:I do think that trying to draw meaningful differences between virtually identical armies (all the Space Marine variants) is a major source of bloat for the game. Going back to a single codex, with subfaction traits and maybe a special unit for each major chapter, would dramatically reduce the rules bloat and provide more design space for other factions.
Like I said earlier, I'd make the other stuff supplements. DA, BA, and Wolves can easily be utilized as supplemental books in the vein of the newer examples. Move some of their units into the generic pool(others have mentioned it, but there's no way that only Blood Angels have Librarian Dreadnoughts or Dark Angels have biker champions/apothecaries or terminator champions/apothecaries), the remainder can be in the supplement proper.
We don't need Baal Predators, Crusader Squads, Murderfangs, etc across all the Chapters--but the supplement sizes wouldn't be too wild if they were to be added in that way.
So you want me to have to pay for (& carry around) 2 books in order to play my SW/DA? Do you work for GW??? Because that pricing scheme seems familiar.....
Seriously, if you're going to waste time printing a SW "supplement" & charging me $30+? Just reprint everything from the basic SM codex the wolves also use alongside the wolfy stuff & sell me 1 book at full codex price. (just like now)
Repeat process for BA, DA, IH, WS, etc. if there's enough stuff to warrant doing a supplement.
So same situation as now except rather than buying a half assed campaign book and a specliased Codex you get a Codex for any and all marines plus a dedicated (and cheaper than half assed camapign) lore book with all the actually unique units and rules for the Wolves
Seriously is it just a status symbol for some players to be a sub-sub faction with a Codex?
Some sub sub factions have more history than most factions in this game. I know you don't like it and it makes you mad, but that's how it is.
So is it a status symbol for you? Or something else. What is it that makes you NEED a Codex.
You don't have to be jealous like this. It's just how it is : some faction have a lot of history and people play them, wheither you like it or not.
Kanluwen wrote: Can't necessarily point the success to players alone though on Sisters' battlebox. There was definitely scalpers/"investment buyers" going on there.
catbarf wrote:I do think that trying to draw meaningful differences between virtually identical armies (all the Space Marine variants) is a major source of bloat for the game. Going back to a single codex, with subfaction traits and maybe a special unit for each major chapter, would dramatically reduce the rules bloat and provide more design space for other factions.
Like I said earlier, I'd make the other stuff supplements. DA, BA, and Wolves can easily be utilized as supplemental books in the vein of the newer examples. Move some of their units into the generic pool(others have mentioned it, but there's no way that only Blood Angels have Librarian Dreadnoughts or Dark Angels have biker champions/apothecaries or terminator champions/apothecaries), the remainder can be in the supplement proper.
We don't need Baal Predators, Crusader Squads, Murderfangs, etc across all the Chapters--but the supplement sizes wouldn't be too wild if they were to be added in that way.
So you want me to have to pay for (& carry around) 2 books in order to play my SW/DA? Do you work for GW??? Because that pricing scheme seems familiar.....
Seriously, if you're going to waste time printing a SW "supplement" & charging me $30+? Just reprint everything from the basic SM codex the wolves also use alongside the wolfy stuff & sell me 1 book at full codex price. (just like now)
Repeat process for BA, DA, IH, WS, etc. if there's enough stuff to warrant doing a supplement.
So same situation as now except rather than buying a half assed campaign book and a specliased Codex you get a Codex for any and all marines plus a dedicated (and cheaper than half assed camapign) lore book with all the actually unique units and rules for the Wolves
Seriously is it just a status symbol for some players to be a sub-sub faction with a Codex?
Some sub sub factions have more history than most factions in this game. I know you don't like it and it makes you mad, but that's how it is.
So is it a status symbol for you? Or something else. What is it that makes you NEED a Codex.
You don't have to be jealous like this. It's just how it is : some faction have a lot of history and people play them, wheither you like it or not.
These factions were all supplements originally, theres no reason you can't have a codex space wolves that has their unique traits/strats etc, all their fluff, units and then simply says "for these units please see codex space marines" regards intercessors etc. Problem solved, but change the name codex to supplement.
Kanluwen wrote: Can't necessarily point the success to players alone though on Sisters' battlebox. There was definitely scalpers/"investment buyers" going on there.
catbarf wrote:I do think that trying to draw meaningful differences between virtually identical armies (all the Space Marine variants) is a major source of bloat for the game. Going back to a single codex, with subfaction traits and maybe a special unit for each major chapter, would dramatically reduce the rules bloat and provide more design space for other factions.
Like I said earlier, I'd make the other stuff supplements. DA, BA, and Wolves can easily be utilized as supplemental books in the vein of the newer examples. Move some of their units into the generic pool(others have mentioned it, but there's no way that only Blood Angels have Librarian Dreadnoughts or Dark Angels have biker champions/apothecaries or terminator champions/apothecaries), the remainder can be in the supplement proper.
We don't need Baal Predators, Crusader Squads, Murderfangs, etc across all the Chapters--but the supplement sizes wouldn't be too wild if they were to be added in that way.
So you want me to have to pay for (& carry around) 2 books in order to play my SW/DA? Do you work for GW??? Because that pricing scheme seems familiar.....
Seriously, if you're going to waste time printing a SW "supplement" & charging me $30+? Just reprint everything from the basic SM codex the wolves also use alongside the wolfy stuff & sell me 1 book at full codex price. (just like now)
Repeat process for BA, DA, IH, WS, etc. if there's enough stuff to warrant doing a supplement.
So same situation as now except rather than buying a half assed campaign book and a specliased Codex you get a Codex for any and all marines plus a dedicated (and cheaper than half assed camapign) lore book with all the actually unique units and rules for the Wolves
Seriously is it just a status symbol for some players to be a sub-sub faction with a Codex?
Some sub sub factions have more history than most factions in this game. I know you don't like it and it makes you mad, but that's how it is.
So is it a status symbol for you? Or something else. What is it that makes you NEED a Codex.
You don't have to be jealous like this. It's just how it is : some faction have a lot of history and people play them, wheither you like it or not.
These factions were all supplements originally, theres no reason you can't have a codex space wolves that has their unique traits/strats etc, all their fluff, units and then simply says "for these units please see codex space marines" regards intercessors etc. Problem solved, but change the name codex to supplement.
Given there was a "Codex: Space Wolves" before there was ever a "Codex Space Marines", you may want to rethink your claim about supplemental status.
Kanluwen wrote: Can't necessarily point the success to players alone though on Sisters' battlebox. There was definitely scalpers/"investment buyers" going on there.
catbarf wrote:I do think that trying to draw meaningful differences between virtually identical armies (all the Space Marine variants) is a major source of bloat for the game. Going back to a single codex, with subfaction traits and maybe a special unit for each major chapter, would dramatically reduce the rules bloat and provide more design space for other factions.
Like I said earlier, I'd make the other stuff supplements. DA, BA, and Wolves can easily be utilized as supplemental books in the vein of the newer examples. Move some of their units into the generic pool(others have mentioned it, but there's no way that only Blood Angels have Librarian Dreadnoughts or Dark Angels have biker champions/apothecaries or terminator champions/apothecaries), the remainder can be in the supplement proper.
We don't need Baal Predators, Crusader Squads, Murderfangs, etc across all the Chapters--but the supplement sizes wouldn't be too wild if they were to be added in that way.
So you want me to have to pay for (& carry around) 2 books in order to play my SW/DA? Do you work for GW??? Because that pricing scheme seems familiar.....
Seriously, if you're going to waste time printing a SW "supplement" & charging me $30+? Just reprint everything from the basic SM codex the wolves also use alongside the wolfy stuff & sell me 1 book at full codex price. (just like now)
Repeat process for BA, DA, IH, WS, etc. if there's enough stuff to warrant doing a supplement.
So same situation as now except rather than buying a half assed campaign book and a specliased Codex you get a Codex for any and all marines plus a dedicated (and cheaper than half assed camapign) lore book with all the actually unique units and rules for the Wolves
Seriously is it just a status symbol for some players to be a sub-sub faction with a Codex?
Some sub sub factions have more history than most factions in this game. I know you don't like it and it makes you mad, but that's how it is.
So is it a status symbol for you? Or something else. What is it that makes you NEED a Codex.
You don't have to be jealous like this. It's just how it is : some faction have a lot of history and people play them, wheither you like it or not.
These factions were all supplements originally, theres no reason you can't have a codex space wolves that has their unique traits/strats etc, all their fluff, units and then simply says "for these units please see codex space marines" regards intercessors etc. Problem solved, but change the name codex to supplement.
And that's exactly the opposite of what I want, no matter what chapter I (or you) play.
I want to walk over to my shelf, pull Codex: ______, & have ALL of the units - generic & chapter specific - between it's covers.
I do not want to pull Codex: Space Marines + Supplement _____.
Kanluwen wrote: Can't necessarily point the success to players alone though on Sisters' battlebox. There was definitely scalpers/"investment buyers" going on there.
catbarf wrote:I do think that trying to draw meaningful differences between virtually identical armies (all the Space Marine variants) is a major source of bloat for the game. Going back to a single codex, with subfaction traits and maybe a special unit for each major chapter, would dramatically reduce the rules bloat and provide more design space for other factions.
Like I said earlier, I'd make the other stuff supplements. DA, BA, and Wolves can easily be utilized as supplemental books in the vein of the newer examples. Move some of their units into the generic pool(others have mentioned it, but there's no way that only Blood Angels have Librarian Dreadnoughts or Dark Angels have biker champions/apothecaries or terminator champions/apothecaries), the remainder can be in the supplement proper.
We don't need Baal Predators, Crusader Squads, Murderfangs, etc across all the Chapters--but the supplement sizes wouldn't be too wild if they were to be added in that way.
So you want me to have to pay for (& carry around) 2 books in order to play my SW/DA? Do you work for GW??? Because that pricing scheme seems familiar.....
Seriously, if you're going to waste time printing a SW "supplement" & charging me $30+? Just reprint everything from the basic SM codex the wolves also use alongside the wolfy stuff & sell me 1 book at full codex price. (just like now)
Repeat process for BA, DA, IH, WS, etc. if there's enough stuff to warrant doing a supplement.
So same situation as now except rather than buying a half assed campaign book and a specliased Codex you get a Codex for any and all marines plus a dedicated (and cheaper than half assed camapign) lore book with all the actually unique units and rules for the Wolves
Seriously is it just a status symbol for some players to be a sub-sub faction with a Codex?
Some sub sub factions have more history than most factions in this game. I know you don't like it and it makes you mad, but that's how it is.
So is it a status symbol for you? Or something else. What is it that makes you NEED a Codex.
You don't have to be jealous like this. It's just how it is : some faction have a lot of history and people play them, wheither you like it or not.
These factions were all supplements originally, theres no reason you can't have a codex space wolves that has their unique traits/strats etc, all their fluff, units and then simply says "for these units please see codex space marines" regards intercessors etc. Problem solved, but change the name codex to supplement.
And that's exactly the opposite of what I want, no matter what chapter I (or you) play.
I want to walk over to my shelf, pull Codex: ______, & have ALL of the units - generic & chapter specific - between it's covers.
I do not want to pull Codex: Space Marines + Supplement _____.
FFS - its not that NOW for any Marine force - its Codex + Pretend Campaign book or Codex + Supplement (which is cheaper)
Kanluwen wrote: Can't necessarily point the success to players alone though on Sisters' battlebox. There was definitely scalpers/"investment buyers" going on there.
catbarf wrote:I do think that trying to draw meaningful differences between virtually identical armies (all the Space Marine variants) is a major source of bloat for the game. Going back to a single codex, with subfaction traits and maybe a special unit for each major chapter, would dramatically reduce the rules bloat and provide more design space for other factions.
Like I said earlier, I'd make the other stuff supplements. DA, BA, and Wolves can easily be utilized as supplemental books in the vein of the newer examples. Move some of their units into the generic pool(others have mentioned it, but there's no way that only Blood Angels have Librarian Dreadnoughts or Dark Angels have biker champions/apothecaries or terminator champions/apothecaries), the remainder can be in the supplement proper.
We don't need Baal Predators, Crusader Squads, Murderfangs, etc across all the Chapters--but the supplement sizes wouldn't be too wild if they were to be added in that way.
So you want me to have to pay for (& carry around) 2 books in order to play my SW/DA? Do you work for GW??? Because that pricing scheme seems familiar.....
Seriously, if you're going to waste time printing a SW "supplement" & charging me $30+? Just reprint everything from the basic SM codex the wolves also use alongside the wolfy stuff & sell me 1 book at full codex price. (just like now)
Repeat process for BA, DA, IH, WS, etc. if there's enough stuff to warrant doing a supplement.
So same situation as now except rather than buying a half assed campaign book and a specliased Codex you get a Codex for any and all marines plus a dedicated (and cheaper than half assed camapign) lore book with all the actually unique units and rules for the Wolves
Seriously is it just a status symbol for some players to be a sub-sub faction with a Codex?
Some sub sub factions have more history than most factions in this game. I know you don't like it and it makes you mad, but that's how it is.
So is it a status symbol for you? Or something else. What is it that makes you NEED a Codex.
You don't have to be jealous like this. It's just how it is : some faction have a lot of history and people play them, wheither you like it or not.
These factions were all supplements originally, theres no reason you can't have a codex space wolves that has their unique traits/strats etc, all their fluff, units and then simply says "for these units please see codex space marines" regards intercessors etc. Problem solved, but change the name codex to supplement.
Given there was a "Codex: Space Wolves" before there was ever a "Codex Space Marines", you may want to rethink your claim about supplemental status.
You're right sorry, it was immediately replaced the next edition with what was essentially a supplement, so it clearly can be done.
Kanluwen wrote: Can't necessarily point the success to players alone though on Sisters' battlebox. There was definitely scalpers/"investment buyers" going on there.
catbarf wrote:I do think that trying to draw meaningful differences between virtually identical armies (all the Space Marine variants) is a major source of bloat for the game. Going back to a single codex, with subfaction traits and maybe a special unit for each major chapter, would dramatically reduce the rules bloat and provide more design space for other factions.
Like I said earlier, I'd make the other stuff supplements. DA, BA, and Wolves can easily be utilized as supplemental books in the vein of the newer examples. Move some of their units into the generic pool(others have mentioned it, but there's no way that only Blood Angels have Librarian Dreadnoughts or Dark Angels have biker champions/apothecaries or terminator champions/apothecaries), the remainder can be in the supplement proper.
We don't need Baal Predators, Crusader Squads, Murderfangs, etc across all the Chapters--but the supplement sizes wouldn't be too wild if they were to be added in that way.
So you want me to have to pay for (& carry around) 2 books in order to play my SW/DA? Do you work for GW??? Because that pricing scheme seems familiar.....
Seriously, if you're going to waste time printing a SW "supplement" & charging me $30+? Just reprint everything from the basic SM codex the wolves also use alongside the wolfy stuff & sell me 1 book at full codex price. (just like now)
Repeat process for BA, DA, IH, WS, etc. if there's enough stuff to warrant doing a supplement.
So same situation as now except rather than buying a half assed campaign book and a specliased Codex you get a Codex for any and all marines plus a dedicated (and cheaper than half assed camapign) lore book with all the actually unique units and rules for the Wolves
Seriously is it just a status symbol for some players to be a sub-sub faction with a Codex?
Some sub sub factions have more history than most factions in this game. I know you don't like it and it makes you mad, but that's how it is.
So is it a status symbol for you? Or something else. What is it that makes you NEED a Codex.
You don't have to be jealous like this. It's just how it is : some faction have a lot of history and people play them, wheither you like it or not.
These factions were all supplements originally, theres no reason you can't have a codex space wolves that has their unique traits/strats etc, all their fluff, units and then simply says "for these units please see codex space marines" regards intercessors etc. Problem solved, but change the name codex to supplement.
Given there was a "Codex: Space Wolves" before there was ever a "Codex Space Marines", you may want to rethink your claim about supplemental status.
You're right sorry, it was immediately replaced the next edition with what was essentially a supplement, so it clearly can be done.
And the time after it went back to being a full Codex, so someone in the Studio was obviously not keen on how that supplement pilot played out, were they?
Kanluwen wrote: Can't necessarily point the success to players alone though on Sisters' battlebox. There was definitely scalpers/"investment buyers" going on there.
catbarf wrote:I do think that trying to draw meaningful differences between virtually identical armies (all the Space Marine variants) is a major source of bloat for the game. Going back to a single codex, with subfaction traits and maybe a special unit for each major chapter, would dramatically reduce the rules bloat and provide more design space for other factions.
Like I said earlier, I'd make the other stuff supplements. DA, BA, and Wolves can easily be utilized as supplemental books in the vein of the newer examples. Move some of their units into the generic pool(others have mentioned it, but there's no way that only Blood Angels have Librarian Dreadnoughts or Dark Angels have biker champions/apothecaries or terminator champions/apothecaries), the remainder can be in the supplement proper.
We don't need Baal Predators, Crusader Squads, Murderfangs, etc across all the Chapters--but the supplement sizes wouldn't be too wild if they were to be added in that way.
So you want me to have to pay for (& carry around) 2 books in order to play my SW/DA? Do you work for GW??? Because that pricing scheme seems familiar.....
Seriously, if you're going to waste time printing a SW "supplement" & charging me $30+? Just reprint everything from the basic SM codex the wolves also use alongside the wolfy stuff & sell me 1 book at full codex price. (just like now)
Repeat process for BA, DA, IH, WS, etc. if there's enough stuff to warrant doing a supplement.
So same situation as now except rather than buying a half assed campaign book and a specliased Codex you get a Codex for any and all marines plus a dedicated (and cheaper than half assed camapign) lore book with all the actually unique units and rules for the Wolves
Seriously is it just a status symbol for some players to be a sub-sub faction with a Codex?
Some sub sub factions have more history than most factions in this game. I know you don't like it and it makes you mad, but that's how it is.
So is it a status symbol for you? Or something else. What is it that makes you NEED a Codex.
You don't have to be jealous like this. It's just how it is : some faction have a lot of history and people play them, wheither you like it or not.
These factions were all supplements originally, theres no reason you can't have a codex space wolves that has their unique traits/strats etc, all their fluff, units and then simply says "for these units please see codex space marines" regards intercessors etc. Problem solved, but change the name codex to supplement.
Given there was a "Codex: Space Wolves" before there was ever a "Codex Space Marines", you may want to rethink your claim about supplemental status.
You're right sorry, it was immediately replaced the next edition with what was essentially a supplement, so it clearly can be done.
And the time after it went back to being a full Codex, so someone in the Studio was obviously not keen on how that supplement pilot played out, were they?
Probably because they could charge more for it with it being a full blown codex, but hey there's 6 supplements out there now, so someone in the studio must be keen on it eh?
Martel732 wrote: 85% of the time, there's no reason to take the 6+++ FNP on DC. It just wastes time. I guess it's not optional though.
Stephen Box is a very successful tournament player. His BA victories are against a lot of elite castles, though.
17% of the time there's every reason to roll it. You're artificially wasting points if you look at it that way, they're priced that 1/6 of the time the shrug off those wounds.
I don't think GW's pricing is that precise. 6++ is almost worthless on a one wound model.
Martel732 wrote: 85% of the time, there's no reason to take the 6+++ FNP on DC. It just wastes time. I guess it's not optional though.
Stephen Box is a very successful tournament player. His BA victories are against a lot of elite castles, though.
17% of the time there's every reason to roll it. You're artificially wasting points if you look at it that way, they're priced that 1/6 of the time the shrug off those wounds.
I don't think GW's pricing is that precise. 6++ is almost worthless on a one wound model.
*Sigh* You're still paying for it, so if you don't use it you're wasting points. Throwing a few dice doesn't take that long.
If I'm getting hit with 2+ damage weapons, I need to go one at a time or use colored dice. Looking for boxcars or worse. That's insane. I should be able to skip that, and most opponents haven't said a thing.
I wasn't referring to die rolls with 85%, I was talking about situations. 6+ FNP is worthwhile if I'm being shot with a moderate amount of small arms. That's it. That's about 15% of the time, I'd say. Any other weapon type or overwhelming smalls arms and its a waste of my time.
*Sigh* You're still paying for it, so if you don't use it you're wasting points. Throwing a few dice doesn't take that long.
It is a problem if you are playing in a place where the tabels don't get paid for per game, but per hour. Because this way every redundant roll eats away the game time, or may force you to pay for the secon hour of playing.
*Sigh* You're still paying for it, so if you don't use it you're wasting points. Throwing a few dice doesn't take that long.
It is a problem if you are playing in a place where the tabels don't get paid for per game, but per hour. Because this way every redundant roll eats away the game time, or may force you to pay for the secon hour of playing.
Good point, I hadn't considered that. If you're in that situation it would make sense if it was statistically improbable to make the rolls to just skip them.
Kanluwen wrote: To avoid starting a new off-topic tangent in the Psychic Awakening thread for Pariah, Deathwatch, and the Harlequins I thought I would pull a quote out that I found interesting:
If we're eliminating bloat it starts and ends with marines. There's half a dozen totally unnecessary codexes with another half dozen completely superfluous supplements in kicking around now.
You could get rid of half of all the books in the game by just bringing marines down to something reasonable.
I want to go back to indexes but with even less fluff and pictures (absolutely zero effort and money spent on layout), I think codexes should be collector's items for hobbyists and narrative gamers. No WL traits, no Stratagems, no Relics, no Chapter Tactics in the indexes. Have all that in Chapter Approved (although I'd prefer universal WL traits and Stratagems and no Chapter Tactics). This would ensure that all factions get updated at the same time and that testing can be done on a level playing field. Indexes could be updated on rotation, but the key would be that if SM are getting Chapter Tactics then at they would be playtested against every other faction and pts would be balanced around the changes coming at the same time and they wouldn't drizzle out over a year.
I don't think there is anything wrong with fluff and narrative rules being bloated and having a bazillion options, even whole other games inside codexes. Like the Deathwatch Codex could also double as the rulebook for Kill Team and Necrons Codex could have rules for campaigns about controlling territory, Imperial Fists might mainly have narrative missions designed around defending or assaulting fortifications, and Blood Angels about slaughtering as many bugs in melee before faltering, but I don't think one should get +1D on Heavy Weapons against Vehicles in the first battle round and the other should get +1A on the charge starting from the third battle round. I appreciate that you don't start playing Blood Angels because you want to play a gunline, if the internal balance is good enough then you only need the slightest push for people to go in that direction. Something that psychic powers, litanies, unique characters etc. already do.
Would other factions be interested in a similar treatment, if it's possible(the ones that immediately spring to mind are Aeldari, Drukhari, Chaos Marines[vanilla] and some of the Guard subfactions)?
Not for my Necrons, I don't want more things for me or my opponent to keep track of or possibly lose sight of. I think the game is already too hard to get into and requires too much homework. I've just started slavishly reading through all the Stratagems of the game and cataloguing them and I think it's less fun than watching paint dry, but given the hobby I've chosen, I can understand why some posters think studying Stratagems is fun.
Martel732 wrote: If I'm getting hit with 2+ damage weapons, I need to go one at a time or use colored dice. Looking for boxcars or worse. That's insane. I should be able to skip that, and most opponents haven't said a thing.
I wasn't referring to die rolls with 85%, I was talking about situations. 6+ FNP is worthwhile if I'm being shot with a moderate amount of small arms. That's it. That's about 15% of the time, I'd say. Any other weapon type or overwhelming smalls arms and its a waste of my time.
If I would normally have to spend 70 hits to kill a unit of Death Company with D1 weapons, then 6+++ means I on average will have to spend 84 hits to kill that unit. If you don't roll those saves, then those extra hits will be going into something else. You should be rolling your saves if you have a higher chance than 3% (2+/36) of making them. Against damage 3 it's not worth it to roll 6+++ for 1W models, but against even insane numbers of D1 weapons it is worth it if your opponent has somewhere else to point their guns since you are keeping the next target in line alive by drawing more fire with the first unit.
Martel732 wrote: If I'm getting hit with 2+ damage weapons, I need to go one at a time or use colored dice. Looking for boxcars or worse. That's insane. I should be able to skip that, and most opponents haven't said a thing.
I wasn't referring to die rolls with 85%, I was talking about situations. 6+ FNP is worthwhile if I'm being shot with a moderate amount of small arms. That's it. That's about 15% of the time, I'd say. Any other weapon type or overwhelming smalls arms and its a waste of my time.
It might be a waste of your time, but it’s not a one player game. If your opponent agrees to let you do it, fair enough, and if there’s a house rule allowing it, but in a competitive game without those caveats it definitely shouldn’t be done.
It is a perfectly legal and valid tactic to try and force my opponent to use up time on the clock in a timed game, within the rules of the game. As such if I want to fire a huge amount of shots at a unit that are very unlikely to do damage in order to use up time by forcing you to roll a lot of saves and FNPs then that should be allowed. I see this as a perfectly valid tactic unlike deliberately slow-playing.
Also as mentioned above, it might be in your favour to assume that your saves/FNPs are failed so that a unit in close combat is exposed to shooting for example. To skip the rolls shouldn’t be allowed here since eve the remote chance that you could successfully prevent a wound could have a knock on effect thar shouldn’t be underestimated.
Oh, I agree there are far too many rolls in the game as is, but until they change the rules or you make an agreement/house rule with your opponent amending them, then the rules are as they are. I find on the internet it’s usually better to discuss the official rules and leave house rules and whatnot to discussion with your own playing group unless the thread is specifically about a particular house rule or set of house rules.
I think I forgot to answer OP's question, yes bloat is the problem. It's less fun to play against an army when you don't know their Stratagems and it's not fun to study Stratagems. More Stratagems makes the game worse, GW should've kept it to a limited amount. More rules like super doctrines either means more studying or more pre-game lecturing.
Because it adds up, I don't play timed games and when someone has to go before a game is finished it's usually before the 2 hour mark where a game could go to its full length if both players were trying to speed up the game. If you're giving your opponent 5% here, there and everywhere you're going to end up at a significant disadvantage, which is of course mitigated if your opponent does the same. For me the value of playing by the rules is more important than speed while the chances are 3% or higher, I think setting the bar at 20% is way too high because it is almost certain to have knock-on effects in terms of how the rest of your opponent's attacks will be directed. I will occasionally ask my opponent whether they want to roll attacks or just assume the attacks kill the unit if my opponent was trying to kill a limited number of my models I'd assume them to say no and roll the dice. There are tricks for speeding up FNP. Let's say I had 10 unsaved wounds with D3 damage on your Death Company, instead of making 20 individual rolls to determine whether the models are dead I can roll 10D3 once, you seperate them into piles of 3 damage, 2 damage and 1 damage. First you roll one dice for each wound that dealt 3 damage, take the failed ones into a fail pile, add the successful ones to the 2 damage pile. Roll the 2 damage pile, failed ones go in fail pile, successful ones go in 1 damage pile. Finally you roll the 1 damage pile and put the failed ones in the fail pile. A number of models are destroyed equal to the number of dice in the fail pile. 4 rolls instead of 20, now this isn't RAW how you're supposed to roll dice in 40k, but neither is using dice-rolling software which is accepted at some of the biggest tournaments.
Bloat is the problem with 8th edition, in 7th it was formations. 8th started streamlined and then replaced the bloat with a novels worth of strategems. it isn't just for GWs flagship line of space marines.
Everybody is always worried about the next update and how it will power up or down a faction. always looking for the next meta
I like that mechanicus, custodus stealer cults etc.. got put into the game proper in 7th, however the current state makes me want even more to go back to playing 5th edition(my favorite edition). all the codexes are good, they are all out, there will never be any need for FAQs or erratas, there is less complexity in re-rolls/CP/turn phases/ an unknowable stack of special stratagems and the number of dice thrown, or wounds in the game., you can use all the models you already had before the primaris plague (or use them as stand ins for normal tac marines) and even some of the newly added forces in 7th as mentioned previously are back compatable with little effort.
Mabey all this down time where i have had nothing to do but paint and evaluate my collection of minis has given my a better prospective on the game in it's current form.
aphyon wrote: Bloat is the problem with 8th edition, in 7th it was formations. 8th started streamlined and then replaced the bloat with a novels worth of strategems. it isn't just for GWs flagship line of space marines.
Everybody is always worried about the next update and how it will power up or down a faction. always looking for the next meta
I like that mechanicus, custodus stealer cults etc.. got put into the game proper in 7th, however the current state makes me want even more to go back to playing 5th edition(my favorite edition). all the codexes are good, they are all out, there will never be any need for FAQs or erratas, there is less complexity in re-rolls/CP/turn phases/ an unknowable stack of special stratagems and the number of dice thrown, or wounds in the game., you can use all the models you already had before the primaris plague (or use them as stand ins for normal tac marines) and even some of the newly added forces in 7th as mentioned previously are back compatable with little effort.
Mabey all this down time where i have had nothing to do but paint and evaluate my collection of minis has given my a better prospective on the game in it's current form.
I think both editions suffered from GW marketing using power creep to push sales. 7th formations started off fairly tame, then the brakes fell off with the Necron codex and GW went full steam ahead with the power creep express. Seems to me the same sort of thing is happening with 8th but with its faction traits and stratagems.
I do think its fair to say that the core rules for 4th to 7th had a lot more meat to them than the core rules for 8th. Makes the game a lot more enjoyable without needing all those reroll and stratagem gimmicks to make the game have any flavor.
Makes the game a lot more enjoyable without needing all those reroll and stratagem gimmicks to make the game have any flavor.
I think it is overall bad game design myself when you run out of CP your chapter/craftworld/sept world suddenly looses all of it's unique character.
I remember when one of our regulars had his 5th ed blood angels, it was tough to fight but it was fun because it had blood angels flavor to it. we joked about flying/jump pack dreadnoughts before they got their librarian dreads with the wings of sanguinius. power.
Makes the game a lot more enjoyable without needing all those reroll and stratagem gimmicks to make the game have any flavor.
I think it is overall bad game design myself when you run out of CP your chapter/craftworld/sept world suddenly looses all of it's unique character.
Agreed.
Though I think this could be at least partially solved by having CPs generated each turn, rather than getting them all of the start and not being able to generate any more without specific relics or such.
The game was much better when it was just indexes. Not perfect, but it felt approachable and reasonable. I haven't kept up with anything really in the last six months and now my army is a completely different size, has stratagems in multiple places and I have to explain everything pre-game endlessly.
It is better to have a few, meaningful rules that give flavour than a whole host. Personally I prefer the way AOS handles flavour. You get 1 artefact, warlord trait and unique command ability for your chapter/craftworld/cult. If additional rules take a long time to explain, they are bad. If they aren't worth explaining they probably aren't worth having (these are generalising of course!).
Stratagems are a cool idea to add dramatic and heroic moments to a game, but a few choice ones would be preferable. Only in death does duty end is a brilliant one - fun and heroic. WHen two warlords slay each other in a dramatic fashion you remember that. Giving a +1 to wound on your best shooting unit is boring and obvious. It also requires no skill. If positioning mattered for stratagem use that would add some play and counter play.
It is better for the core actions to feel meaningful and flavourful then these bolt-ons. Or have them tied to specific dataslates. Strategems to make units viable is stupid - make the unit viable instead.
Strategems to make units viable is stupid - make the unit viable instead.
You just hit on the reason why i love horus heresy. all the unit options even the generic ones are good. not- i have to take unit X because it is better than all the other options for that slot. plus they removed 7th ed formations so win/win.
Strategems to make units viable is stupid - make the unit viable instead.
You just hit on the reason why i love horus heresy. all the unit options even the generic ones are good. not- i have to take unit X because it is better than all the other options for that slot. plus they removed 7th ed formations so win/win.
I think another part of it is some/many model ranges are bloated and there is too much for GW to separate out distinct roles for units/choices.
Wargamers can be quite sensitive to having their units made non-legal* which I can understand but is also detrimental to the development of the game. For example, I'm convinced the game would be better if several big heavy weapons (lascannon equivalents for example) were gone from infantry. Make anti-tank scarcer. But this would piss people off. The drive to have too many options leads to escalation. Because some armies have access to too much AT in dispersed locations, tanks need to be cheaper/tougher/have gimmicks to be viable.
Umbros wrote: The game was much better when it was just indexes.
It was probably more balanced and easy to keep track of but it was also bloody boring.
I'll argue that deeper core rules with shallower/streamlined army rules beats shallow core rules with stacks and stacks of army-specific rules for depth, ease of play, ease of balance, and design space.
Most armies have more content in the 8th Ed indices than they did in their own codices back in 3rd/4th Ed. Without that strong core foundation though there's not much to build a game from, and then you need all those bespoke special rules and stratagems just to get something approaching depth out of it.
Umbros wrote: The game was much better when it was just indexes.
It was probably more balanced and easy to keep track of but it was also bloody boring.
The problem is that 40K was never meant to be a truly balanced game(especially now with all the various factions added and performing in a way to represent their uniqueness on TT).
I was meant to be more of a narrative fun battle game to play with friends where some factions were better than others at certain things that you need to learn to counter.. i blame GW for ruining this back when they instituted the rougue trader and grand tournament scene back in the early 2000s. it changed the nature of the game at the same time the dev teams were still focused on the game the way it was originally intended.
In 3rd-5th there was a solid set of 3 pages of special rules in the main rule book that applied to all armies in the game. with the keyword in their entry where individual codexes gave then a slight divergence in uniqueness.
the 3.5 dark angels mini dex made deathwing and ravenwing 2 very distinct, very restricted, stand alone armies that could not be repeated by any other space marine faction. in the same way the 3.5 chaos codex is still the best chaos codex ever made because it gave the marks of the gods serious meaning in both benefits and restrictions that gave the factions flavor. same with the blood angels codex for 5th.
Umbros wrote: The game was much better when it was just indexes.
It was probably more balanced and easy to keep track of but it was also bloody boring.
I'll argue that deeper core rules with shallower/streamlined army rules beats shallow core rules with stacks and stacks of army-specific rules for depth, ease of play, ease of balance, and design space.
Aye. You could add five to ten more rules pages to the rulebook, do away with at least half the rules in the codexes, and come out with a better experience.
Umbros wrote: The game was much better when it was just indexes.
It was probably more balanced and easy to keep track of but it was also bloody boring.
I'll argue that deeper core rules with shallower/streamlined army rules beats shallow core rules with stacks and stacks of army-specific rules for depth, ease of play, ease of balance, and design space.
Aye. You could add five to ten more rules pages to the rulebook, do away with at least half the rules in the codexes, and come out with a better experience.
it would probably also lower the ammount off arms race that is going on with PA /supplements to a degree.
Umbros wrote: The game was much better when it was just indexes.
It was probably more balanced and easy to keep track of but it was also bloody boring.
I'll argue that deeper core rules with shallower/streamlined army rules beats shallow core rules with stacks and stacks of army-specific rules for depth, ease of play, ease of balance, and design space.
I completely agree.
Unfortunately, 8th's core rules are as shallow as it gets.
Umbros wrote: The game was much better when it was just indexes.
It was probably more balanced and easy to keep track of but it was also bloody boring.
I'll argue that deeper core rules with shallower/streamlined army rules beats shallow core rules with stacks and stacks of army-specific rules for depth, ease of play, ease of balance, and design space.
I completely agree.
Unfortunately, 8th's core rules are as shallow as it gets.
I tought we all had fun with 10 x 1 version of deepstrike.
Or infiltration, etc.
And the 2 versions that are at first wrong / broken.......
Makes the game a lot more enjoyable without needing all those reroll and stratagem gimmicks to make the game have any flavor.
I think it is overall bad game design myself when you run out of CP your chapter/craftworld/sept world suddenly looses all of it's unique character.
I keep hearing this complaint, but I don't see how it is true. I can't think of a single sub-faction that loses it's Trait when it runs out of CP? And outside of Space Marines, I don't think any (or many) sub-factions get more than 1 unique Stratagem. And your sub-faction warlord traits and relics don't disappear when you run out of CP either.
So tell me, how it is that Ultramarines and Iron Hands lose their unique character and become the same when they run out of CP?
Makes the game a lot more enjoyable without needing all those reroll and stratagem gimmicks to make the game have any flavor.
I think it is overall bad game design myself when you run out of CP your chapter/craftworld/sept world suddenly looses all of it's unique character.
I keep hearing this complaint, but I don't see how it is true. I can't think of a single sub-faction that loses it's Trait when it runs out of CP? And outside of Space Marines, I don't think any (or many) sub-factions get more than 1 unique Stratagem. And your sub-faction warlord traits and relics don't disappear when you run out of CP either.
So tell me, how it is that Ultramarines and Iron Hands lose their unique character and become the same when they run out of CP?
It's a csm issue.
Half the Units don't have traits.
Makes the game a lot more enjoyable without needing all those reroll and stratagem gimmicks to make the game have any flavor.
I think it is overall bad game design myself when you run out of CP your chapter/craftworld/sept world suddenly looses all of it's unique character.
I keep hearing this complaint, but I don't see how it is true. I can't think of a single sub-faction that loses it's Trait when it runs out of CP? And outside of Space Marines, I don't think any (or many) sub-factions get more than 1 unique Stratagem. And your sub-faction warlord traits and relics don't disappear when you run out of CP either.
So tell me, how it is that Ultramarines and Iron Hands lose their unique character and become the same when they run out of CP?
It's a csm issue.
Half the Units don't have traits.
Ding ding ding! We have a winner! Once a Night Lords or Word Bearers army runs out of cp how is it different from a Black Legion army? Before Faith and Fury all the legions, except maybe Alpha Legion, were just Black Legion with a different color scheme. Now they have distinct flavor, until the cp runs out. The legions need better traits that actually affect all units and how armies are built and played.
More hyperbole. You won't see a Emperor's Children unit firing Bolters as Assault weapons when they advance, nor Black Legion unit's fighting first regardless of charging. Just because the differences aren't as great as those from later codexes (like new Space Marines) doesn't mean they don't exist.
alextroy wrote: More hyperbole. You won't see a Emperor's Children unit firing Bolters as Assault weapons when they advance, nor Black Legion unit's fighting first regardless of charging. Just because the differences aren't as great as those from later codexes (like new Space Marines) doesn't mean they don't exist.
Right! And no one but Word Bearers would ever reroll their morale checks. And who else would lower an opponent's leadership by -1 besides Night Lords? Except any legion using raptors. Or loyalists with reivers. Or with the fearsome aspect trait (not that anyone takes it because it's useless.)
Yup, pretty unique and impactful those legion traits.
Of course they exist. The point is that they don't really do anything. Which is why the legions need strategems for flavor. If every faction had a good strong trait we wouldn't need all these pages on pages to differentiate them. Flavor should come from traits and units. That would cut down on rules bloat.
alextroy wrote: So the problem isn't bloat or CP, but bad faction Traits for CSM Legions. It would be better to complain about the problem, not the symptom.
"Bloat" to me means "irrelevant and unnecessary rules that don't make the game more interesting." It's possible for something to be bad and be bloat. Or to be good and be bloat.
alextroy wrote: So the problem isn't bloat or CP, but bad faction Traits for CSM Legions. It would be better to complain about the problem, not the symptom.
No, not just csm legions, everyone. Strategems shouldn't define factions. We didn't need them before 8th to define factions. Horus Heresy doesn't need them, either. Strategems shouldn't be something you build armies around, or buy books for.
alextroy wrote: So the problem isn't bloat or CP, but bad faction Traits for CSM Legions. It would be better to complain about the problem, not the symptom.
No, not just csm legions, everyone. Strategems shouldn't define factions. We didn't need them before 8th to define factions. Horus Heresy doesn't need them, either. Strategems shouldn't be something you build armies around, or buy books for.
Exactly. all the special rules for a faction/special unit used to be in the unit entry. with just enough divergence from normal to make them stand out as unique without being game breaking. it was also something that could not be re-produced by any other army/faction. but the later is what GW is using to push sales and it is at the same time a form of power creep.
A thing to keep in mind also, away from the forums, many players i run into have never played any other edition other than 8th or possibly 7th so they do not understand how much of a change 8th was for the game. for 12 of the last 20 years the game followed a similar format, slightly altered for an additional 5 or so years (6th&7th) and then completely changed in the last 2 years or so for 8th. to the point where it feels less like your playing a TT strategy war game reliant on the luck of the dice (without massive re-roll options) planning your movements, or prioritizing targets and more like your building a magic gotcha deck of special combos.
8th uses many of the same minis but it is quite simply a different game. and in my personal view not a better change. some rules changes were good in the various editions including 8th, but the overall mechanics are not for standard 28mm play (8th scales up nicely for epic with reduced ranges and movement stats combined with limited stratagems)
TangoTwoBravo wrote: I will try to use your RPG analogy, awkward as it is. The factions are not pregenerated characters but rather classes. Picking a class means some things are open and others are closed. Call the standard Fighter the Space Marines and the Dark Angels are the Paladin. You want to allow a player to take a Fighter but cherry pick stuff from the Paladin and others.
Actual factions are indeed classes. Orks are like a class, you can make any ork warbands you want with the orks rule, that are clearly very different from other faction rules, and your own faction lore. Imperial Guard is like a class, for the same reason. Necrons. Sisters of Battle. Genestealer cults.
Dark Angels? Dark Angels rules are 97% the same as space marines, and you don't get to make your own faction lore, the Dark Angel faction lore is already predefined.
If I correct your analogy, the standard fighter is the Space Marine codex, but they cannot use hammer weapons, and if you want to make a warrior with a hammer, you need to take the special "hammer fighter" class, that works the same as the fighter except they can only use a hammer, and can't use shields, AND on top of that they have to be called Angus McFife, or be a direct descendant of Angus McFife XIII, and come from Scotland and so on and so forth.
Let me freaking make a freaking warrior that use a one-handed hammer and shield, and that is called Eddie the 'ead if I want to for heaven's sake!
TangoTwoBravo wrote: An individual desire to make a fringe or home-brew Chapter is good and should be encouraged, but not at the expense of the more popular established Chapters.
It's the opposite. It's good that the established chapter can be represented, but it shouldn't come at the expense of the ability for players to create their own chapters.
If you want to play with other people's characters and factions, go play Horus Heresy, you can even use all your current models!
In the end we come back to the terrible but sadly fact of life about GW : it's a stock company "in the miniatures selling business".
They cannot release full rules and indexes at the beginning of an edition and not release any new books for new units,
They need to maintain cash influx all trough the year to make stockholders happy.
We can talk and complain however long we want about it, in the end, simple ruleset the beginning = expand the customer base, and codex/rules bloat after that is designed to keep the customer base paying for new books and units.
At this point each expansion feels like a world of warcraft expansion : they seel you bells and whistles pre-release ("we've changed"), then it becomes a grind, because that's the only way to keep people paying their monthly sub.
Siegfriedfr wrote: In the end we come back to the terrible but sadly fact of life about GW : it's a stock company "in the miniatures selling business".
They cannot release full rules and indexes at the beginning of an edition and not release any new books for new units,
They need to maintain cash influx all trough the year to make stockholders happy.
We can talk and complain however long we want about it, in the end, simple ruleset the beginning = expand the customer base, and codex/rules bloat after that is designed to keep the customer base paying for new books and units.
At this point each expansion feels like a world of warcraft expansion : they seel you bells and whistles pre-release ("we've changed"), then it becomes a grind, because that's the only way to keep people paying their monthly sub.
GW doesn't need to release products constantly because they are a "stock company". They need to release products constantly because they need to pay their employees and creditors constantly. I suppose they could be smaller and live on a feast and famine schedule like a restaurant in a seasonal resort town, but then we would get less stuff out of them.
