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Martel732 wrote:

ccs wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Any events that happen on 6s are great at slowing the game down, but poor at affecting the game. I often skip overwatch, etc to give myself more play time.

DttfE. says hi.
It's one thing when it as a mechanic is limited to sniper units. It's a whole other thing if you need to check the shooting off a 30 boyz blob...

Yeah, I'm skipping about 1/3 of my rolls each game approximately. I don't take FNP rolls on DC. I don't take overwatch very often, etc. I've never had to do that in any previous edition. I sometimes don't even fire rapid fire on a moving unit outside rapid fire.

And then he wonders why he loses & posts about how terrible his BA are....

BTW Stephen Box does the same thing.

1st, Who?
Is this some You Tube or tourney guy you all worship?

2nd, You mean there's another out there complaining their armies crap all the time & then revealing he doesn't even make use of his forces special rules?

The OP for this thread probably should have defined exactly what the problem was before starting this 11-page monstrosity. Instead, we get some vague allusions to some players (who? how many?) think that the codex is too big while also making a suggestion that other books should be rolled into it making it bigger.

85% of the time, there's no reason to take the 6+++ FNP on DC. It just wastes time. I guess it's not optional though.

Stephen Box is a very successful tournament player. His BA victories are against a lot of elite castles, though.

I don't have no expiriance with rolling +6 FNP, but I do have expiriance rolling +4 and +5 invs. And most of the time rolling +5 invs doesn't matter much either. The damage incoming is just too big for it to matter, unless it is something like a squad of paladins with super human physilogy on. rolling 14 +5 invs doing 2-3 dmg each on 5 termintors, is just adding extra rolling to the game.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Can't necessarily point the success to players alone though on Sisters' battlebox. There was definitely scalpers/"investment buyers" going on there.

catbarf wrote:I do think that trying to draw meaningful differences between virtually identical armies (all the Space Marine variants) is a major source of bloat for the game. Going back to a single codex, with subfaction traits and maybe a special unit for each major chapter, would dramatically reduce the rules bloat and provide more design space for other factions.

Like I said earlier, I'd make the other stuff supplements. DA, BA, and Wolves can easily be utilized as supplemental books in the vein of the newer examples. Move some of their units into the generic pool(others have mentioned it, but there's no way that only Blood Angels have Librarian Dreadnoughts or Dark Angels have biker champions/apothecaries or terminator champions/apothecaries), the remainder can be in the supplement proper.

We don't need Baal Predators, Crusader Squads, Murderfangs, etc across all the Chapters--but the supplement sizes wouldn't be too wild if they were to be added in that way.

So you want me to have to pay for (& carry around) 2 books in order to play my SW/DA? Do you work for GW??? Because that pricing scheme seems familiar.....

Seriously, if you're going to waste time printing a SW "supplement" & charging me $30+? Just reprint everything from the basic SM codex the wolves also use alongside the wolfy stuff & sell me 1 book at full codex price. (just like now)
Repeat process for BA, DA, IH, WS, etc. if there's enough stuff to warrant doing a supplement.

Nah If I were GW, I would make the SW player buy the core marine book, a WD with initial set of SW rules, a PA style extended rule set, and then over the year droped additional units and special characters splashed around WD, other factions expansions. If an orc or eldar can be made to buy models for SW and dark eldar . Then why not put an update rule for Logan Grimnar in to PA 11, that has templars fighting orcs.

This way people would have to buy rules constantly. You could even put game changes in to those books, and later reprint them in CA, but because they wouldn't allign with all the books from prior year, some of the WD and expansions would still have to be bought, if one would want to have the full set of them.

It could be a glorious thing for sells deparament.

The big reason to have the marine books separate is so they can be point independent.
To account for there difference in rules and ability to modify how units function.
I think if GW where doing that then it would cut down on bloat with the books rather than add more.

I think at this point the difference in marine chapters is way to big with all the bonuses, and how they simply seem to get more than other comparable unit in other factions.

I do think its pushing the game towards a breaking point :(

Karol wrote:
Nah If I were GW, I would make the SW player buy the core marine book, a WD with initial set of SW rules, a PA style extended rule set, and then over the year droped additional units and special characters splashed around WD, other factions expansions. If an orc or eldar can be made to buy models for SW and dark eldar . Then why not put an update rule for Logan Grimnar in to PA 11, that has templars fighting orcs.

This way people would have to buy rules constantly. You could even put game changes in to those books, and later reprint them in CA, but because they wouldn't allign with all the books from prior year, some of the WD and expansions would still have to be bought, if one would want to have the full set of them.

It could be a glorious thing for sells deparament.

And if you were GW I'd tell you this:

Push it too far & you'll find out that I don't really have a problem with piracy.

I prefer to just buy one complete book on the subject.
I already don't have any problem skipping books like Vigilus or PA, or WD & just doing without the extra stuff.
But if you fragment the army into unplayable bits I'll just pirate it all.

I don't play Horus Heresy, but I do have some of the books for it. I really like that general approach for marines. Have one core book with all the main unit entries and maybe the unique rules for like, Ultramarines. Then have a book that's basically just unique datasheets and rules for specific chapters.

The first book would be perfectly playable and *should* be balanced against whatever variant content you might want to use from the second book. The second book should expand your options but not up your power, basically.

There really are a ton of units being reprinted that just... don't need to be unique. Long fangs can just be devastators. Wolf scouts can just be scouts. Libby dreads should be available to everyone. Baal predators... I mean, are there really no other chapters that thought of slapping some extra flamey flamers on a predator? Sanguinary Guard can just be vanguard vets if you simply make their wargear a generic option for all vanguard vets. Even Death Company and Wulfen can *probably* be lumped together as "Gene Mutants" or whatever. I know the models and rules look different, but conceptually they're both basically just extra angry marines.

So put everything you reasonably can into the first book, and then put special characters and really unusual stuff like thunderwolves into the second book. At that point, you could expand chapter tactics to make whatever other tweaks feel appropriate. You could have the Dark Angels chapter tactics include a Death Wing type rule that only applies to terminators. You could give Red Scorpion sergeants an Apothecary-esque rule.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Baal predators... I mean, are there really no other chapters that thought of slapping some extra flamey flamers on a predator?

The Predator Infernus already has the turret flamer covered.
Salamanders used to be able to take sponson flamers.
Which just leaves the turret assault cannons. Other Chapters can bolt assault cannons on to Razorbacks and Land Raiders, but not Predators for some reason?

Even if assault cannon Predators were somehow unique to Blood Angels, we have examples of non-Dark Angels fielding Mortis Dreadnoughts, so the same explanations could easily be used.

ccs wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Can't necessarily point the success to players alone though on Sisters' battlebox. There was definitely scalpers/"investment buyers" going on there.

catbarf wrote:I do think that trying to draw meaningful differences between virtually identical armies (all the Space Marine variants) is a major source of bloat for the game. Going back to a single codex, with subfaction traits and maybe a special unit for each major chapter, would dramatically reduce the rules bloat and provide more design space for other factions.

Like I said earlier, I'd make the other stuff supplements. DA, BA, and Wolves can easily be utilized as supplemental books in the vein of the newer examples. Move some of their units into the generic pool(others have mentioned it, but there's no way that only Blood Angels have Librarian Dreadnoughts or Dark Angels have biker champions/apothecaries or terminator champions/apothecaries), the remainder can be in the supplement proper.

We don't need Baal Predators, Crusader Squads, Murderfangs, etc across all the Chapters--but the supplement sizes wouldn't be too wild if they were to be added in that way.

So you want me to have to pay for (& carry around) 2 books in order to play my SW/DA? Do you work for GW??? Because that pricing scheme seems familiar.....

Seriously, if you're going to waste time printing a SW "supplement" & charging me $30+? Just reprint everything from the basic SM codex the wolves also use alongside the wolfy stuff & sell me 1 book at full codex price. (just like now)
Repeat process for BA, DA, IH, WS, etc. if there's enough stuff to warrant doing a supplement.

So same situation as now except rather than buying a half assed campaign book and a specliased Codex you get a Codex for any and all marines plus a dedicated (and cheaper than half assed camapign) lore book with all the actually unique units and rules for the Wolves

Seriously is it just a status symbol for some players to be a sub-sub faction with a Codex?

 Mr Morden wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Can't necessarily point the success to players alone though on Sisters' battlebox. There was definitely scalpers/"investment buyers" going on there.

catbarf wrote:I do think that trying to draw meaningful differences between virtually identical armies (all the Space Marine variants) is a major source of bloat for the game. Going back to a single codex, with subfaction traits and maybe a special unit for each major chapter, would dramatically reduce the rules bloat and provide more design space for other factions.

Like I said earlier, I'd make the other stuff supplements. DA, BA, and Wolves can easily be utilized as supplemental books in the vein of the newer examples. Move some of their units into the generic pool(others have mentioned it, but there's no way that only Blood Angels have Librarian Dreadnoughts or Dark Angels have biker champions/apothecaries or terminator champions/apothecaries), the remainder can be in the supplement proper.

We don't need Baal Predators, Crusader Squads, Murderfangs, etc across all the Chapters--but the supplement sizes wouldn't be too wild if they were to be added in that way.

So you want me to have to pay for (& carry around) 2 books in order to play my SW/DA? Do you work for GW??? Because that pricing scheme seems familiar.....

Seriously, if you're going to waste time printing a SW "supplement" & charging me $30+? Just reprint everything from the basic SM codex the wolves also use alongside the wolfy stuff & sell me 1 book at full codex price. (just like now)
Repeat process for BA, DA, IH, WS, etc. if there's enough stuff to warrant doing a supplement.

So same situation as now except rather than buying a half assed campaign book and a specliased Codex you get a Codex for any and all marines plus a dedicated (and cheaper than half assed camapign) lore book with all the actually unique units and rules for the Wolves

Seriously is it just a status symbol for some players to be a sub-sub faction with a Codex?

Some sub sub factions have more history than most factions in this game. I know you don't like it and it makes you mad, but that's how it is.

Martel732 wrote:
85% of the time, there's no reason to take the 6+++ FNP on DC. It just wastes time. I guess it's not optional though.

Stephen Box is a very successful tournament player. His BA victories are against a lot of elite castles, though.

17% of the time there's every reason to roll it. You're artificially wasting points if you look at it that way, they're priced that 1/6 of the time the shrug off those wounds.

WhiteDog wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Can't necessarily point the success to players alone though on Sisters' battlebox. There was definitely scalpers/"investment buyers" going on there.

catbarf wrote:I do think that trying to draw meaningful differences between virtually identical armies (all the Space Marine variants) is a major source of bloat for the game. Going back to a single codex, with subfaction traits and maybe a special unit for each major chapter, would dramatically reduce the rules bloat and provide more design space for other factions.

Like I said earlier, I'd make the other stuff supplements. DA, BA, and Wolves can easily be utilized as supplemental books in the vein of the newer examples. Move some of their units into the generic pool(others have mentioned it, but there's no way that only Blood Angels have Librarian Dreadnoughts or Dark Angels have biker champions/apothecaries or terminator champions/apothecaries), the remainder can be in the supplement proper.

We don't need Baal Predators, Crusader Squads, Murderfangs, etc across all the Chapters--but the supplement sizes wouldn't be too wild if they were to be added in that way.

So you want me to have to pay for (& carry around) 2 books in order to play my SW/DA? Do you work for GW??? Because that pricing scheme seems familiar.....

Seriously, if you're going to waste time printing a SW "supplement" & charging me $30+? Just reprint everything from the basic SM codex the wolves also use alongside the wolfy stuff & sell me 1 book at full codex price. (just like now)
Repeat process for BA, DA, IH, WS, etc. if there's enough stuff to warrant doing a supplement.

So same situation as now except rather than buying a half assed campaign book and a specliased Codex you get a Codex for any and all marines plus a dedicated (and cheaper than half assed camapign) lore book with all the actually unique units and rules for the Wolves

Seriously is it just a status symbol for some players to be a sub-sub faction with a Codex?

Some sub sub factions have more history than most factions in this game. I know you don't like it and it makes you mad, but that's how it is.

So is it a status symbol for you? Or something else. What is it that makes you NEED a Codex.

 Mr Morden wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Can't necessarily point the success to players alone though on Sisters' battlebox. There was definitely scalpers/"investment buyers" going on there.

catbarf wrote:I do think that trying to draw meaningful differences between virtually identical armies (all the Space Marine variants) is a major source of bloat for the game. Going back to a single codex, with subfaction traits and maybe a special unit for each major chapter, would dramatically reduce the rules bloat and provide more design space for other factions.

Like I said earlier, I'd make the other stuff supplements. DA, BA, and Wolves can easily be utilized as supplemental books in the vein of the newer examples. Move some of their units into the generic pool(others have mentioned it, but there's no way that only Blood Angels have Librarian Dreadnoughts or Dark Angels have biker champions/apothecaries or terminator champions/apothecaries), the remainder can be in the supplement proper.

We don't need Baal Predators, Crusader Squads, Murderfangs, etc across all the Chapters--but the supplement sizes wouldn't be too wild if they were to be added in that way.

So you want me to have to pay for (& carry around) 2 books in order to play my SW/DA? Do you work for GW??? Because that pricing scheme seems familiar.....

Seriously, if you're going to waste time printing a SW "supplement" & charging me $30+? Just reprint everything from the basic SM codex the wolves also use alongside the wolfy stuff & sell me 1 book at full codex price. (just like now)
Repeat process for BA, DA, IH, WS, etc. if there's enough stuff to warrant doing a supplement.

So same situation as now except rather than buying a half assed campaign book and a specliased Codex you get a Codex for any and all marines plus a dedicated (and cheaper than half assed camapign) lore book with all the actually unique units and rules for the Wolves

Seriously is it just a status symbol for some players to be a sub-sub faction with a Codex?

Some sub sub factions have more history than most factions in this game. I know you don't like it and it makes you mad, but that's how it is.

So is it a status symbol for you? Or something else. What is it that makes you NEED a Codex.

You don't have to be jealous like this. It's just how it is : some faction have a lot of history and people play them, wheither you like it or not.

WhiteDog wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Can't necessarily point the success to players alone though on Sisters' battlebox. There was definitely scalpers/"investment buyers" going on there.

catbarf wrote:I do think that trying to draw meaningful differences between virtually identical armies (all the Space Marine variants) is a major source of bloat for the game. Going back to a single codex, with subfaction traits and maybe a special unit for each major chapter, would dramatically reduce the rules bloat and provide more design space for other factions.

Like I said earlier, I'd make the other stuff supplements. DA, BA, and Wolves can easily be utilized as supplemental books in the vein of the newer examples. Move some of their units into the generic pool(others have mentioned it, but there's no way that only Blood Angels have Librarian Dreadnoughts or Dark Angels have biker champions/apothecaries or terminator champions/apothecaries), the remainder can be in the supplement proper.

We don't need Baal Predators, Crusader Squads, Murderfangs, etc across all the Chapters--but the supplement sizes wouldn't be too wild if they were to be added in that way.

So you want me to have to pay for (& carry around) 2 books in order to play my SW/DA? Do you work for GW??? Because that pricing scheme seems familiar.....

Seriously, if you're going to waste time printing a SW "supplement" & charging me $30+? Just reprint everything from the basic SM codex the wolves also use alongside the wolfy stuff & sell me 1 book at full codex price. (just like now)
Repeat process for BA, DA, IH, WS, etc. if there's enough stuff to warrant doing a supplement.

So same situation as now except rather than buying a half assed campaign book and a specliased Codex you get a Codex for any and all marines plus a dedicated (and cheaper than half assed camapign) lore book with all the actually unique units and rules for the Wolves

Seriously is it just a status symbol for some players to be a sub-sub faction with a Codex?

Some sub sub factions have more history than most factions in this game. I know you don't like it and it makes you mad, but that's how it is.

So is it a status symbol for you? Or something else. What is it that makes you NEED a Codex.

You don't have to be jealous like this. It's just how it is : some faction have a lot of history and people play them, wheither you like it or not.

These factions were all supplements originally, theres no reason you can't have a codex space wolves that has their unique traits/strats etc, all their fluff, units and then simply says "for these units please see codex space marines" regards intercessors etc. Problem solved, but change the name codex to supplement.

Dudeface wrote:

Spoiler:

WhiteDog wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Can't necessarily point the success to players alone though on Sisters' battlebox. There was definitely scalpers/"investment buyers" going on there.

catbarf wrote:I do think that trying to draw meaningful differences between virtually identical armies (all the Space Marine variants) is a major source of bloat for the game. Going back to a single codex, with subfaction traits and maybe a special unit for each major chapter, would dramatically reduce the rules bloat and provide more design space for other factions.

Like I said earlier, I'd make the other stuff supplements. DA, BA, and Wolves can easily be utilized as supplemental books in the vein of the newer examples. Move some of their units into the generic pool(others have mentioned it, but there's no way that only Blood Angels have Librarian Dreadnoughts or Dark Angels have biker champions/apothecaries or terminator champions/apothecaries), the remainder can be in the supplement proper.

We don't need Baal Predators, Crusader Squads, Murderfangs, etc across all the Chapters--but the supplement sizes wouldn't be too wild if they were to be added in that way.

So you want me to have to pay for (& carry around) 2 books in order to play my SW/DA? Do you work for GW??? Because that pricing scheme seems familiar.....

Seriously, if you're going to waste time printing a SW "supplement" & charging me $30+? Just reprint everything from the basic SM codex the wolves also use alongside the wolfy stuff & sell me 1 book at full codex price. (just like now)
Repeat process for BA, DA, IH, WS, etc. if there's enough stuff to warrant doing a supplement.

So same situation as now except rather than buying a half assed campaign book and a specliased Codex you get a Codex for any and all marines plus a dedicated (and cheaper than half assed camapign) lore book with all the actually unique units and rules for the Wolves

Seriously is it just a status symbol for some players to be a sub-sub faction with a Codex?

Some sub sub factions have more history than most factions in this game. I know you don't like it and it makes you mad, but that's how it is.

So is it a status symbol for you? Or something else. What is it that makes you NEED a Codex.

You don't have to be jealous like this. It's just how it is : some faction have a lot of history and people play them, wheither you like it or not.

These factions were all supplements originally, theres no reason you can't have a codex space wolves that has their unique traits/strats etc, all their fluff, units and then simply says "for these units please see codex space marines" regards intercessors etc. Problem solved, but change the name codex to supplement.

Given there was a "Codex: Space Wolves" before there was ever a "Codex Space Marines", you may want to rethink your claim about supplemental status.

Dudeface wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Can't necessarily point the success to players alone though on Sisters' battlebox. There was definitely scalpers/"investment buyers" going on there.

catbarf wrote:I do think that trying to draw meaningful differences between virtually identical armies (all the Space Marine variants) is a major source of bloat for the game. Going back to a single codex, with subfaction traits and maybe a special unit for each major chapter, would dramatically reduce the rules bloat and provide more design space for other factions.

Like I said earlier, I'd make the other stuff supplements. DA, BA, and Wolves can easily be utilized as supplemental books in the vein of the newer examples. Move some of their units into the generic pool(others have mentioned it, but there's no way that only Blood Angels have Librarian Dreadnoughts or Dark Angels have biker champions/apothecaries or terminator champions/apothecaries), the remainder can be in the supplement proper.

We don't need Baal Predators, Crusader Squads, Murderfangs, etc across all the Chapters--but the supplement sizes wouldn't be too wild if they were to be added in that way.

So you want me to have to pay for (& carry around) 2 books in order to play my SW/DA? Do you work for GW??? Because that pricing scheme seems familiar.....

Seriously, if you're going to waste time printing a SW "supplement" & charging me $30+? Just reprint everything from the basic SM codex the wolves also use alongside the wolfy stuff & sell me 1 book at full codex price. (just like now)
Repeat process for BA, DA, IH, WS, etc. if there's enough stuff to warrant doing a supplement.

So same situation as now except rather than buying a half assed campaign book and a specliased Codex you get a Codex for any and all marines plus a dedicated (and cheaper than half assed camapign) lore book with all the actually unique units and rules for the Wolves

Seriously is it just a status symbol for some players to be a sub-sub faction with a Codex?

Some sub sub factions have more history than most factions in this game. I know you don't like it and it makes you mad, but that's how it is.

So is it a status symbol for you? Or something else. What is it that makes you NEED a Codex.

You don't have to be jealous like this. It's just how it is : some faction have a lot of history and people play them, wheither you like it or not.

These factions were all supplements originally, theres no reason you can't have a codex space wolves that has their unique traits/strats etc, all their fluff, units and then simply says "for these units please see codex space marines" regards intercessors etc. Problem solved, but change the name codex to supplement.

And that's exactly the opposite of what I want, no matter what chapter I (or you) play.
I want to walk over to my shelf, pull Codex: ______, & have ALL of the units - generic & chapter specific - between it's covers.
I do not want to pull Codex: Space Marines + Supplement _____.

ccs wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Can't necessarily point the success to players alone though on Sisters' battlebox. There was definitely scalpers/"investment buyers" going on there.

catbarf wrote:I do think that trying to draw meaningful differences between virtually identical armies (all the Space Marine variants) is a major source of bloat for the game. Going back to a single codex, with subfaction traits and maybe a special unit for each major chapter, would dramatically reduce the rules bloat and provide more design space for other factions.

Like I said earlier, I'd make the other stuff supplements. DA, BA, and Wolves can easily be utilized as supplemental books in the vein of the newer examples. Move some of their units into the generic pool(others have mentioned it, but there's no way that only Blood Angels have Librarian Dreadnoughts or Dark Angels have biker champions/apothecaries or terminator champions/apothecaries), the remainder can be in the supplement proper.

We don't need Baal Predators, Crusader Squads, Murderfangs, etc across all the Chapters--but the supplement sizes wouldn't be too wild if they were to be added in that way.

So you want me to have to pay for (& carry around) 2 books in order to play my SW/DA? Do you work for GW??? Because that pricing scheme seems familiar.....

Seriously, if you're going to waste time printing a SW "supplement" & charging me $30+? Just reprint everything from the basic SM codex the wolves also use alongside the wolfy stuff & sell me 1 book at full codex price. (just like now)
Repeat process for BA, DA, IH, WS, etc. if there's enough stuff to warrant doing a supplement.

So same situation as now except rather than buying a half assed campaign book and a specliased Codex you get a Codex for any and all marines plus a dedicated (and cheaper than half assed camapign) lore book with all the actually unique units and rules for the Wolves

Seriously is it just a status symbol for some players to be a sub-sub faction with a Codex?

Some sub sub factions have more history than most factions in this game. I know you don't like it and it makes you mad, but that's how it is.

So is it a status symbol for you? Or something else. What is it that makes you NEED a Codex.

You don't have to be jealous like this. It's just how it is : some faction have a lot of history and people play them, wheither you like it or not.

These factions were all supplements originally, theres no reason you can't have a codex space wolves that has their unique traits/strats etc, all their fluff, units and then simply says "for these units please see codex space marines" regards intercessors etc. Problem solved, but change the name codex to supplement.

And that's exactly the opposite of what I want, no matter what chapter I (or you) play.
I want to walk over to my shelf, pull Codex: ______, & have ALL of the units - generic & chapter specific - between it's covers.
I do not want to pull Codex: Space Marines + Supplement _____.

FFS - its not that NOW for any Marine force - its Codex + Pretend Campaign book or Codex + Supplement (which is cheaper)

 Dysartes wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Spoiler:

WhiteDog wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Can't necessarily point the success to players alone though on Sisters' battlebox. There was definitely scalpers/"investment buyers" going on there.

catbarf wrote:I do think that trying to draw meaningful differences between virtually identical armies (all the Space Marine variants) is a major source of bloat for the game. Going back to a single codex, with subfaction traits and maybe a special unit for each major chapter, would dramatically reduce the rules bloat and provide more design space for other factions.

Like I said earlier, I'd make the other stuff supplements. DA, BA, and Wolves can easily be utilized as supplemental books in the vein of the newer examples. Move some of their units into the generic pool(others have mentioned it, but there's no way that only Blood Angels have Librarian Dreadnoughts or Dark Angels have biker champions/apothecaries or terminator champions/apothecaries), the remainder can be in the supplement proper.

We don't need Baal Predators, Crusader Squads, Murderfangs, etc across all the Chapters--but the supplement sizes wouldn't be too wild if they were to be added in that way.

So you want me to have to pay for (& carry around) 2 books in order to play my SW/DA? Do you work for GW??? Because that pricing scheme seems familiar.....

Seriously, if you're going to waste time printing a SW "supplement" & charging me $30+? Just reprint everything from the basic SM codex the wolves also use alongside the wolfy stuff & sell me 1 book at full codex price. (just like now)
Repeat process for BA, DA, IH, WS, etc. if there's enough stuff to warrant doing a supplement.

So same situation as now except rather than buying a half assed campaign book and a specliased Codex you get a Codex for any and all marines plus a dedicated (and cheaper than half assed camapign) lore book with all the actually unique units and rules for the Wolves

Seriously is it just a status symbol for some players to be a sub-sub faction with a Codex?

Some sub sub factions have more history than most factions in this game. I know you don't like it and it makes you mad, but that's how it is.

So is it a status symbol for you? Or something else. What is it that makes you NEED a Codex.

You don't have to be jealous like this. It's just how it is : some faction have a lot of history and people play them, wheither you like it or not.

These factions were all supplements originally, theres no reason you can't have a codex space wolves that has their unique traits/strats etc, all their fluff, units and then simply says "for these units please see codex space marines" regards intercessors etc. Problem solved, but change the name codex to supplement.

Given there was a "Codex: Space Wolves" before there was ever a "Codex Space Marines", you may want to rethink your claim about supplemental status.

You're right sorry, it was immediately replaced the next edition with what was essentially a supplement, so it clearly can be done.

Dudeface wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Spoiler:

WhiteDog wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Can't necessarily point the success to players alone though on Sisters' battlebox. There was definitely scalpers/"investment buyers" going on there.

catbarf wrote:I do think that trying to draw meaningful differences between virtually identical armies (all the Space Marine variants) is a major source of bloat for the game. Going back to a single codex, with subfaction traits and maybe a special unit for each major chapter, would dramatically reduce the rules bloat and provide more design space for other factions.

Like I said earlier, I'd make the other stuff supplements. DA, BA, and Wolves can easily be utilized as supplemental books in the vein of the newer examples. Move some of their units into the generic pool(others have mentioned it, but there's no way that only Blood Angels have Librarian Dreadnoughts or Dark Angels have biker champions/apothecaries or terminator champions/apothecaries), the remainder can be in the supplement proper.

We don't need Baal Predators, Crusader Squads, Murderfangs, etc across all the Chapters--but the supplement sizes wouldn't be too wild if they were to be added in that way.

So you want me to have to pay for (& carry around) 2 books in order to play my SW/DA? Do you work for GW??? Because that pricing scheme seems familiar.....

Seriously, if you're going to waste time printing a SW "supplement" & charging me $30+? Just reprint everything from the basic SM codex the wolves also use alongside the wolfy stuff & sell me 1 book at full codex price. (just like now)
Repeat process for BA, DA, IH, WS, etc. if there's enough stuff to warrant doing a supplement.

So same situation as now except rather than buying a half assed campaign book and a specliased Codex you get a Codex for any and all marines plus a dedicated (and cheaper than half assed camapign) lore book with all the actually unique units and rules for the Wolves

Seriously is it just a status symbol for some players to be a sub-sub faction with a Codex?

Some sub sub factions have more history than most factions in this game. I know you don't like it and it makes you mad, but that's how it is.

So is it a status symbol for you? Or something else. What is it that makes you NEED a Codex.

You don't have to be jealous like this. It's just how it is : some faction have a lot of history and people play them, wheither you like it or not.

These factions were all supplements originally, theres no reason you can't have a codex space wolves that has their unique traits/strats etc, all their fluff, units and then simply says "for these units please see codex space marines" regards intercessors etc. Problem solved, but change the name codex to supplement.

Given there was a "Codex: Space Wolves" before there was ever a "Codex Space Marines", you may want to rethink your claim about supplemental status.

You're right sorry, it was immediately replaced the next edition with what was essentially a supplement, so it clearly can be done.

And the time after it went back to being a full Codex, so someone in the Studio was obviously not keen on how that supplement pilot played out, were they?

 Dysartes wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Spoiler:

WhiteDog wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Can't necessarily point the success to players alone though on Sisters' battlebox. There was definitely scalpers/"investment buyers" going on there.

catbarf wrote:I do think that trying to draw meaningful differences between virtually identical armies (all the Space Marine variants) is a major source of bloat for the game. Going back to a single codex, with subfaction traits and maybe a special unit for each major chapter, would dramatically reduce the rules bloat and provide more design space for other factions.

Like I said earlier, I'd make the other stuff supplements. DA, BA, and Wolves can easily be utilized as supplemental books in the vein of the newer examples. Move some of their units into the generic pool(others have mentioned it, but there's no way that only Blood Angels have Librarian Dreadnoughts or Dark Angels have biker champions/apothecaries or terminator champions/apothecaries), the remainder can be in the supplement proper.

We don't need Baal Predators, Crusader Squads, Murderfangs, etc across all the Chapters--but the supplement sizes wouldn't be too wild if they were to be added in that way.

So you want me to have to pay for (& carry around) 2 books in order to play my SW/DA? Do you work for GW??? Because that pricing scheme seems familiar.....

Seriously, if you're going to waste time printing a SW "supplement" & charging me $30+? Just reprint everything from the basic SM codex the wolves also use alongside the wolfy stuff & sell me 1 book at full codex price. (just like now)
Repeat process for BA, DA, IH, WS, etc. if there's enough stuff to warrant doing a supplement.

So same situation as now except rather than buying a half assed campaign book and a specliased Codex you get a Codex for any and all marines plus a dedicated (and cheaper than half assed camapign) lore book with all the actually unique units and rules for the Wolves

Seriously is it just a status symbol for some players to be a sub-sub faction with a Codex?

Some sub sub factions have more history than most factions in this game. I know you don't like it and it makes you mad, but that's how it is.

So is it a status symbol for you? Or something else. What is it that makes you NEED a Codex.

You don't have to be jealous like this. It's just how it is : some faction have a lot of history and people play them, wheither you like it or not.

These factions were all supplements originally, theres no reason you can't have a codex space wolves that has their unique traits/strats etc, all their fluff, units and then simply says "for these units please see codex space marines" regards intercessors etc. Problem solved, but change the name codex to supplement.

Given there was a "Codex: Space Wolves" before there was ever a "Codex Space Marines", you may want to rethink your claim about supplemental status.

You're right sorry, it was immediately replaced the next edition with what was essentially a supplement, so it clearly can be done.

And the time after it went back to being a full Codex, so someone in the Studio was obviously not keen on how that supplement pilot played out, were they?

Probably because they could charge more for it with it being a full blown codex, but hey there's 6 supplements out there now, so someone in the studio must be keen on it eh?

Dudeface wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
85% of the time, there's no reason to take the 6+++ FNP on DC. It just wastes time. I guess it's not optional though.

Stephen Box is a very successful tournament player. His BA victories are against a lot of elite castles, though.

17% of the time there's every reason to roll it. You're artificially wasting points if you look at it that way, they're priced that 1/6 of the time the shrug off those wounds.

I don't think GW's pricing is that precise. 6++ is almost worthless on a one wound model.

Martel732 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
85% of the time, there's no reason to take the 6+++ FNP on DC. It just wastes time. I guess it's not optional though.

Stephen Box is a very successful tournament player. His BA victories are against a lot of elite castles, though.

17% of the time there's every reason to roll it. You're artificially wasting points if you look at it that way, they're priced that 1/6 of the time the shrug off those wounds.

I don't think GW's pricing is that precise. 6++ is almost worthless on a one wound model.

*Sigh* You're still paying for it, so if you don't use it you're wasting points. Throwing a few dice doesn't take that long.

If I'm getting hit with 2+ damage weapons, I need to go one at a time or use colored dice. Looking for boxcars or worse. That's insane. I should be able to skip that, and most opponents haven't said a thing.

I wasn't referring to die rolls with 85%, I was talking about situations. 6+ FNP is worthwhile if I'm being shot with a moderate amount of small arms. That's it. That's about 15% of the time, I'd say. Any other weapon type or overwhelming smalls arms and its a waste of my time.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

*Sigh* You're still paying for it, so if you don't use it you're wasting points. Throwing a few dice doesn't take that long.

It is a problem if you are playing in a place where the tabels don't get paid for per game, but per hour. Because this way every redundant roll eats away the game time, or may force you to pay for the secon hour of playing.

Karol wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

*Sigh* You're still paying for it, so if you don't use it you're wasting points. Throwing a few dice doesn't take that long.

It is a problem if you are playing in a place where the tabels don't get paid for per game, but per hour. Because this way every redundant roll eats away the game time, or may force you to pay for the secon hour of playing.

Good point, I hadn't considered that. If you're in that situation it would make sense if it was statistically improbable to make the rolls to just skip them.

 Kanluwen wrote:
To avoid starting a new off-topic tangent in the Psychic Awakening thread for Pariah, Deathwatch, and the Harlequins I thought I would pull a quote out that I found interesting:

ERJAK wrote:

If we're eliminating bloat it starts and ends with marines. There's half a dozen totally unnecessary codexes with another half dozen completely superfluous supplements in kicking around now.

You could get rid of half of all the books in the game by just bringing marines down to something reasonable.

I want to go back to indexes but with even less fluff and pictures (absolutely zero effort and money spent on layout), I think codexes should be collector's items for hobbyists and narrative gamers. No WL traits, no Stratagems, no Relics, no Chapter Tactics in the indexes. Have all that in Chapter Approved (although I'd prefer universal WL traits and Stratagems and no Chapter Tactics). This would ensure that all factions get updated at the same time and that testing can be done on a level playing field. Indexes could be updated on rotation, but the key would be that if SM are getting Chapter Tactics then at they would be playtested against every other faction and pts would be balanced around the changes coming at the same time and they wouldn't drizzle out over a year.

I don't think there is anything wrong with fluff and narrative rules being bloated and having a bazillion options, even whole other games inside codexes. Like the Deathwatch Codex could also double as the rulebook for Kill Team and Necrons Codex could have rules for campaigns about controlling territory, Imperial Fists might mainly have narrative missions designed around defending or assaulting fortifications, and Blood Angels about slaughtering as many bugs in melee before faltering, but I don't think one should get +1D on Heavy Weapons against Vehicles in the first battle round and the other should get +1A on the charge starting from the third battle round. I appreciate that you don't start playing Blood Angels because you want to play a gunline, if the internal balance is good enough then you only need the slightest push for people to go in that direction. Something that psychic powers, litanies, unique characters etc. already do.

Would other factions be interested in a similar treatment, if it's possible(the ones that immediately spring to mind are Aeldari, Drukhari, Chaos Marines[vanilla] and some of the Guard subfactions)?

Not for my Necrons, I don't want more things for me or my opponent to keep track of or possibly lose sight of. I think the game is already too hard to get into and requires too much homework. I've just started slavishly reading through all the Stratagems of the game and cataloguing them and I think it's less fun than watching paint dry, but given the hobby I've chosen, I can understand why some posters think studying Stratagems is fun.

Martel732 wrote:
If I'm getting hit with 2+ damage weapons, I need to go one at a time or use colored dice. Looking for boxcars or worse. That's insane. I should be able to skip that, and most opponents haven't said a thing.

I wasn't referring to die rolls with 85%, I was talking about situations. 6+ FNP is worthwhile if I'm being shot with a moderate amount of small arms. That's it. That's about 15% of the time, I'd say. Any other weapon type or overwhelming smalls arms and its a waste of my time.

If I would normally have to spend 70 hits to kill a unit of Death Company with D1 weapons, then 6+++ means I on average will have to spend 84 hits to kill that unit. If you don't roll those saves, then those extra hits will be going into something else. You should be rolling your saves if you have a higher chance than 3% (2+/36) of making them. Against damage 3 it's not worth it to roll 6+++ for 1W models, but against even insane numbers of D1 weapons it is worth it if your opponent has somewhere else to point their guns since you are keeping the next target in line alive by drawing more fire with the first unit.

Why do you think 3% chance is worth it?

Martel732 wrote:
If I'm getting hit with 2+ damage weapons, I need to go one at a time or use colored dice. Looking for boxcars or worse. That's insane. I should be able to skip that, and most opponents haven't said a thing.

I wasn't referring to die rolls with 85%, I was talking about situations. 6+ FNP is worthwhile if I'm being shot with a moderate amount of small arms. That's it. That's about 15% of the time, I'd say. Any other weapon type or overwhelming smalls arms and its a waste of my time.

It might be a waste of your time, but it’s not a one player game. If your opponent agrees to let you do it, fair enough, and if there’s a house rule allowing it, but in a competitive game without those caveats it definitely shouldn’t be done.

It is a perfectly legal and valid tactic to try and force my opponent to use up time on the clock in a timed game, within the rules of the game. As such if I want to fire a huge amount of shots at a unit that are very unlikely to do damage in order to use up time by forcing you to roll a lot of saves and FNPs then that should be allowed. I see this as a perfectly valid tactic unlike deliberately slow-playing.

Also as mentioned above, it might be in your favour to assume that your saves/FNPs are failed so that a unit in close combat is exposed to shooting for example. To skip the rolls shouldn’t be allowed here since eve the remote chance that you could successfully prevent a wound could have a knock on effect thar shouldn’t be underestimated.