H.B.M.C. wrote: The Redeemer also has weapons 1-4 and then 6.
Probably so they can use the same numbered picture sheet. 1-6 but one variant doesn't use 5 and one doesn't use 6. Not sure if it'd call it elegant design, but GW really wants to use these abbreviated style of datasheet it seems.
H.B.M.C. wrote: The Redeemer also has weapons 1-4 and then 6.
Looking what we can see of the layout, though, that actually makes sense.
Items 1-4 are the weapons shared between the Crusader and the Redeemer. 5 looks like the Hurricane Bolters for the Crusader, while 6 seems to be the *checks book* Flamestorm Cannon for the Redeemer.
Based on the stat lines, it looks like:
1 - Hunter-killer missile
2 - Multi-melta (old profile)
3 - Twin assault cannon
4 - Storm bolter
5 - Hurricane bolters
6 - Flamestorm cannon (with a range boost to 12")
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think the difference is D3 attacks rather than 1 at the lowest bracket.
Still not T9 though...
No, it isn't. Gw isn't doing anything to help vehicles against all these buffed anti-tank weapons they're giving out. It's not looking good for anything that isn't at least T8 with a 5++.
So I can't buy a supplement from a games workshop store? Look I am not anti forge world - it will always be viewed with a different lens though because it is balanced differently.
Its also always going to be considered a supplement, not a base game requirement. You can play with a BRB and a Codex. The Summer Campaign books are also a supplement, not part of the base game.
I'm sick of people claiming FW isnt part of the game,
Isn't part of the CORE game. The BASE game. Vigilus A-Something, or the Something Not Very Good of Baal isn't part of the Core Game either. That distinction is getting lost.
You can also play with the free online rules and the unit stats included in the box for each kit. Thus the BRB and codexes wouldn't be part of the "core game" if you're going to go down that line of thinking.
Racerguy180 wrote: basic would mean; no codex or supplements and index only(which FW amazingly have). Warlord traits only from BRB, generic strats etc...
how would you define basic?
The BRB, your codex. I'd probably include the chapter/subfaction specific personalization supplements because they're really just an appendix to the main codex designed to get more sales for GW - but I wouldn't argue too hard with someone who didn't. I wouldn't call Forgeworld, Campaign Books, Cities of Death, Planetstrikefall, Bastions of Bloodbaths, or whatever other expansion packs they put out over an Edition Life Cycle part of the Base Game
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Gadzilla666 wrote: You can also play with the free online rules and the unit stats included in the box for each kit. Thus the BRB and codexes wouldn't be part of the "core game" if you're going to go down that line of thinking.
Nope, Edge of Silence refers you to Codex Space Marines for details on abilities.
Racerguy180 wrote: basic would mean; no codex or supplements and index only(which FW amazingly have). Warlord traits only from BRB, generic strats etc...
how would you define basic?
The BRB, your codex. I'd probably include the chapter/subfaction specific personalization supplements because they're really just an appendix to the main codex designed to get more sales for GW - but I wouldn't argue too hard with someone who didn't. I wouldn't call Forgeworld, Campaign Books, Cities of Death, Planetstrikefall, Bastions of Bloodbaths, or whatever other expansion packs they put out over an Edition Life Cycle part of the Base Game
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gadzilla666 wrote: You can also play with the free online rules and the unit stats included in the box for each kit. Thus the BRB and codexes wouldn't be part of the "core game" if you're going to go down that line of thinking.
Nope, Edge of Silence refers you to Codex Space Marines for details on abilities.
Sorry, you don't need Edge of Silence to play the "core game", thus, it's supplementary material.
And letting loyalists use the supplements but denying Forge World to csm? You're bias is showing.
You can also play with the free online rules and the unit stats included in the box for each kit. Thus the BRB and codexes wouldn't be part of the "core game" if you're going to go down that line of thinking.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Sorry, you don't need Edge of Silence to play the "core game", thus, it's supplementary material.
Edge of Silence is the name of the booklet that comes with the Indomitus Starter kits.
You can also play with the free online rules and the unit stats included in the box for each kit. Thus the BRB and codexes wouldn't be part of the "core game" if you're going to go down that line of thinking.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Sorry, you don't need Edge of Silence to play the "core game", thus, it's supplementary material.
Edge of Silence is the name of the booklet that comes with the Indomitus Starter kits.
And it contains the basic rules for the units right? You don't need special rules and abilities to play the "core game". That's why the online rules don't include command points and strategems. Those booklets are so new players can play without a codex. Codex rules are just as optional as Forge World rules for the "core game".
And it contains the basic rules for the units right? You don't need special rules and abilities to play the "core game". That's why the online rules don't include command points and strategems. Those booklets are so new players can play without a codex. Codex rules are just as optional as Forge World rules for the "core game".
I repeat "No, it points you to the codex on the little datasheet booklets".
And it contains the basic rules for the units right? You don't need special rules and abilities to play the "core game". That's why the online rules don't include command points and strategems. Those booklets are so new players can play without a codex. Codex rules are just as optional as Forge World rules for the "core game".
I repeat "No, it points you to the codex on the little datasheet booklets".
It contains no rules for the models? So you have to wait for the new Codex: Loyalist Scum or use the app to play Bladeguard, Eradicators, and the other stuff in it? Because obviously none of that stuff is in the current codex.
JNAProductions wrote: Xeno, you know what's the biggest problem in the game right now?
Space Marines. They're just all-around too good, in many different ways large and small. On the tournament scene, where everything is cutthroat and everyone optimizes as best they can, it might not be overwhelming, but casually, where you get two friends slapping down models and hoping to have a good time? That's where HUGE issues are.
Marines have tons of overlapping buffs for offense and defense, many of their units are very aggressively priced, and they're all-around too powerful relative to pretty much any other Dex.
Forgeworld is a minor issue (and one that's on GW to fix, not the playerbase) relative to the massive discrepancies present in the Marine book relative to others.
Buahahahahaha. Have you actually looked at tournament results? In, like, last 4 years? Because all minmaxed SM lists share one element - broken FW garbage. Leviathans, contemptors, and deredeos (admittedly the last one less now that the first two became even more broken). Saw the first SM list that won tournament in 9th edition? It had Sisters as troops, ZERO actual SM units, and spammed as many las contemptors as possible. I wonder why, if SM are so OP?
Let's assume your assertion, that SM are a big problem, is somehow true. What would you call units that make tournament players say "the whole SM codex is meh compared to this, let's spam these instead"? It takes incredible mental gymnastic to call garbage that makes Codex: SM look weaker than conscripts ""minor"" issue after calling SM "huge" one - because it's impossible to reconcile these two statements, no matter how you try.
And you're completely wrong about SM, because as Goonhammer shown, the SM lists that didn't spam FW crap ended up with 30 to 40% winrates at 9th edition tournaments, while these that did got 60+%. Gee, it sure shows that FW is not a problem while SM are
And that is also why people hate playing FW, despite equally impressive mental gymnastic defending FW above (you guys don't like spamming leviathans, by any chance?) - because it doesn't matter half of FW units are so bad they are not worth taking. What matters is that FW stuff that is worth taking is so broken almost nothing in the game can compete with it. But hey, sure, tell us how Reivers and Infiltrators are the problem while leviathans and co are totes balanced
Billagio wrote: Yeah when was the last time you saw someone bring a FW unit in a competitive game that wasnt a Telemon/Levi/Relic Contemptor/Mortis (notice how theyre all Imperial?)
Yeeeah, because outside of Telemon, that list is totally not 100% spammed by Chaos lists too. Oh wait! They are!
As posters above noted, almost all factions in the game have at least one very good, if not completely broken FW unit, and one that don't are rare exception - but hey, let's complain about SM instead, because it's not like tournament players skip all GWSM/Custodes units to spam FW ones (Oh wait! They do!). Really, at this point, if someone claims FW is not a problem, SM are a problem, and xenos are weak (because it's not like 2 out of 3 top factions in tournaments right now are xenos... oh wait... and third is not SM either) then it's almost 100% sure sign the whole post can be discarded without reading because nothing in it is in any way close to actual reality and is just excuse to bash nonexistent strawmarines.
Buahahahahaha. Have you actually looked at tournament results? In, like, last 4 years? Because all minmaxed SM lists share one element - broken FW garbage. Leviathans, contemptors, and deredeos (admittedly the last one less now that the first two became even more broken). Saw the first SM list that won tournament in 9th edition? It had Sisters as troops, ZERO actual SM units, and spammed as many las contemptors as possible. I wonder why, if SM are so OP?
Let's assume your assertion, that SM are a big problem, is somehow true. What would you call units that make tournament players say "the whole SM codex is meh compared to this, let's spam these instead"? It takes incredible mental gymnastic to call garbage that makes Codex: SM look weaker than conscripts ""minor"" issue after calling SM "huge" one - because it's impossible to reconcile these two statements, no matter how you try.
And you're completely wrong about SM, because as Goonhammer shown, the SM lists that didn't spam FW crap ended up with 30 to 40% winrates at 9th edition tournaments, while these that did got 60+%. Gee, it sure shows that FW is not a problem while SM are
And that is also why people hate playing FW, despite equally impressive mental gymnastic defending FW above (you guys don't like spamming leviathans, by any chance?) - because it doesn't matter half of FW units are so bad they are not worth taking. What matters is that FW stuff that is worth taking is so broken almost nothing in the game can compete with it. But hey, sure, tell us how Reivers and Infiltrators are the problem while leviathans and co are totes balanced
Good job, you named the three models that FW produces that have been already called out as being the only problematic models they produce.
Now check out the number of models they produce for 40k that aren't problematic.
Then realise that the only reason theyre problematic is that theyre undercosted and guess who assigns the pts to them ? GW.
Are the HellBlade/Kharibdys/Cerberus tank destroyer/sokar pattern stormbird/fireraptor/stormeagle/blood slaughterer/greater blight drone/rapier batteries/mastodon/fellblade/nighteing/cobra/tantalus/warp hunter/ etc OP?
Yes the dreads are problematic, theres no question there, but were not only talking about the dreads when we say "FW"
Billagio wrote: Yeah when was the last time you saw someone bring a FW unit in a competitive game that wasnt a Telemon/Levi/Relic Contemptor/Mortis (notice how theyre all Imperial?)
Yeeeah, because outside of Telemon, that list is totally not 100% spammed by Chaos lists too. Oh wait! They are!
As posters above noted, almost all factions in the game have at least one very good, if not completely broken FW unit, and one that don't are rare exception - but hey, let's complain about SM instead, because it's not like tournament players skip all GWSM/Custodes units to spam FW ones (Oh wait! They do!). Really, at this point, if someone claims FW is not a problem, SM are a problem, and xenos are weak (because it's not like 2 out of 3 top factions in tournaments right now are xenos... oh wait... and third is not SM either) then it's almost 100% sure sign the whole post can be discarded without reading because nothing in it is in any way close to actual reality and is just excuse to bash nonexistent strawmarines.
Chaos doesnt spam dreads anymore....
Tell me what very good model Harlequins/Necrons/Orks/Admech/Sisters of battle/Tyranids/genestealer cult/Demons/Imperial guard has?
Billagio wrote: Yeah when was the last time you saw someone bring a FW unit in a competitive game that wasnt a Telemon/Levi/Relic Contemptor/Mortis (notice how theyre all Imperial?)
Yeeeah, because outside of Telemon, that list is totally not 100% spammed by Chaos lists too. Oh wait! They are!
As posters above noted, almost all factions in the game have at least one very good, if not completely broken FW unit, and one that don't are rare exception - but hey, let's complain about SM instead, because it's not like tournament players skip all GWSM/Custodes units to spam FW ones (Oh wait! They do!). Really, at this point, if someone claims FW is not a problem, SM are a problem, and xenos are weak (because it's not like 2 out of 3 top factions in tournaments right now are xenos... oh wait... and third is not SM either) then it's almost 100% sure sign the whole post can be discarded without reading because nothing in it is in any way close to actual reality and is just excuse to bash nonexistent strawmarines.
Wait, chaos gets Telemons, Relic Contemptors, and Mortis Contemptors now? When did that happen?
Ok, jokes aside, every unit you've complained about is a loyalist marines unit. The Relic Contemptor got a massive buff because whoever did the points in CA2020 forgot that it has a better save, 2 more wounds, and a 6+++ that none of the other variants have. It also has loyalist rules from the loyalist codex and supplements. Chaos doesn't have doctrines, or super doctrines, or pages on top of pages of strategems and psychic powers that, once again, gw forgot to consider fw units for when they were writing them. Thus we get crazy stuff like unkillable Iron Hands leviathans.
The Hellforged Contemptor is the same price as the Relic Contemptor, but with 2 less wounds, a 3+ save vs the Relic's 2+, and no 6+++. The Hellforged Leviathan is the same base price as the loyalist leviathan but has a 5++ against shooting while the Relic leviathan has a 4++, and butcher cannons got a massive nerf in CA2020 while stormcannon arrays stayed the same price, so the best loadout is now WAY more expensive for the Hellforged Leviathan than for the relic. Hellforged Daredeos took the same hit from the butcher cannon nerf as well. And csm don't have the same number of strong codex units to make up for the loss as loyalists.
The fact that you can only think of three fw units that are "broken" among dozens and that they are all loyalist marines units tells us exactly where the problem lies, and it isn't fw. Could you tell me what csmfw units you consider broken besides dreadnoughts? Is it my 880 PPM Hellforged Fellblade? The 680 PPM Cerberus? Dreadclaws, Hellblades, maybe my Sicaran that's currently hiding in fear of Eradicators and 2 shot multi-meltas? I know, it's the Hellforged Achilles, that Soulburner Bombard is so much better than the loyalist's quad launcher, why, gw should probably make it twice the price as the loyalist gun. Oh wait, they did.
And as far as "spamming" fw dreads, I have ONE Leviathan, ONE Daredeo, and TWO (GASP! Does that make me a WAAC player?) Contemptors. If that's spamming then cue the Monty Python references.
Wait, chaos gets Telemons, Relic Contemptors, and Mortis Contemptors now? When did that happen?
Ok, jokes aside, every unit you've complained about is a loyalist marines unit. The Relic Contemptor got a massive buff because whoever did the points in CA2020 forgot that it has a better save, 2 more wounds, and a 6+++ that none of the other variants have. It also has loyalist rules from the loyalist codex and supplements. Chaos doesn't have doctrines, or super doctrines, or pages on top of pages of strategems and psychic powers that, once again, gw forgot to consider fw units for when they were writing them. Thus we get crazy stuff like unkillable Iron Hands leviathans.
The Hellforged Contemptor is the same price as the Relic Contemptor, but with 2 less wounds, a 3+ save vs the Relic's 2+, and no 6+++. The Hellforged Leviathan is the same base price as the loyalist leviathan but has a 5++ against shooting while the Relic leviathan has a 4++, and butcher cannons got a massive nerf in CA2020 while stormcannon arrays stayed the same price, so the best loadout is now WAY more expensive for the Hellforged Leviathan than for the relic. Hellforged Daredeos took the same hit from the butcher cannon nerf as well. And csm don't have the same number of strong codex units to make up for the loss as loyalists.
The fact that you can only think of three fw units that are "broken" among dozens and that they are all loyalist marines units tells us exactly where the problem lies, and it isn't fw. Could you tell me what csmfw units you consider broken besides dreadnoughts? Is it my 880 PPM Hellforged Fellblade? The 680 PPM Cerberus? Dreadclaws, Hellblades, maybe my Sicaran that's currently hiding in fear of Eradicators and 2 shot multi-meltas? I know, it's the Hellforged Achilles, that Soulburner Bombard is so much better than the loyalist's quad launcher, why, gw should probably make it twice the price as the loyalist gun. Oh wait, they did.
And as far as "spamming" fw dreads, I have ONE Leviathan, ONE Daredeo, and TWO (GASP! Does that make me a WAAC player?) Contemptors. If that's spamming then cue the Monty Python references.
and to be fair, the Night lords levi and contemptor look so cool and are one of the few things that look like night lords out of the box so its hard not to include them just for the looks.
And even then, a Hellforge leviathan with dual claws is still overpriced.
Wait, chaos gets Telemons, Relic Contemptors, and Mortis Contemptors now? When did that happen?
Ok, jokes aside, every unit you've complained about is a loyalist marines unit. The Relic Contemptor got a massive buff because whoever did the points in CA2020 forgot that it has a better save, 2 more wounds, and a 6+++ that none of the other variants have. It also has loyalist rules from the loyalist codex and supplements. Chaos doesn't have doctrines, or super doctrines, or pages on top of pages of strategems and psychic powers that, once again, gw forgot to consider fw units for when they were writing them. Thus we get crazy stuff like unkillable Iron Hands leviathans.
The Hellforged Contemptor is the same price as the Relic Contemptor, but with 2 less wounds, a 3+ save vs the Relic's 2+, and no 6+++. The Hellforged Leviathan is the same base price as the loyalist leviathan but has a 5++ against shooting while the Relic leviathan has a 4++, and butcher cannons got a massive nerf in CA2020 while stormcannon arrays stayed the same price, so the best loadout is now WAY more expensive for the Hellforged Leviathan than for the relic. Hellforged Daredeos took the same hit from the butcher cannon nerf as well. And csm don't have the same number of strong codex units to make up for the loss as loyalists.
The fact that you can only think of three fw units that are "broken" among dozens and that they are all loyalist marines units tells us exactly where the problem lies, and it isn't fw. Could you tell me what csmfw units you consider broken besides dreadnoughts? Is it my 880 PPM Hellforged Fellblade? The 680 PPM Cerberus? Dreadclaws, Hellblades, maybe my Sicaran that's currently hiding in fear of Eradicators and 2 shot multi-meltas? I know, it's the Hellforged Achilles, that Soulburner Bombard is so much better than the loyalist's quad launcher, why, gw should probably make it twice the price as the loyalist gun. Oh wait, they did.
And as far as "spamming" fw dreads, I have ONE Leviathan, ONE Daredeo, and TWO (GASP! Does that make me a WAAC player?) Contemptors. If that's spamming then cue the Monty Python references.
and to be fair, the Night lords levi and contemptor look so cool and are one of the few things that look like night lords out of the box so its hard not to include them just for the looks.
And even then, a Hellforge leviathan with dual claws is still overpriced.
I do wonder where all these dreads were, oh wait they were all in the broken beyond reason IH supplement, but FW is the issue, not the supplement that makes basically the whole dex from allready overperforming into nonsense territory.
not to mention that the chaos versions didn't make the cut for competitive lists along time ago, yet Ibris insists that chaos spams dreads, which is nonsense, the only thing csm spammed was soup, and obliterators and sorcerers, i wonder who designed those?
Billagio wrote: Yeah when was the last time you saw someone bring a FW unit in a competitive game that wasnt a Telemon/Levi/Relic Contemptor/Mortis (notice how theyre all Imperial?)
Yeeeah, because outside of Telemon, that list is totally not 100% spammed by Chaos lists too. Oh wait! They are!
As posters above noted, almost all factions in the game have at least one very good, if not completely broken FW unit, and one that don't are rare exception - but hey, let's complain about SM instead, because it's not like tournament players skip all GWSM/Custodes units to spam FW ones (Oh wait! They do!). Really, at this point, if someone claims FW is not a problem, SM are a problem, and xenos are weak (because it's not like 2 out of 3 top factions in tournaments right now are xenos... oh wait... and third is not SM either) then it's almost 100% sure sign the whole post can be discarded without reading because nothing in it is in any way close to actual reality and is just excuse to bash nonexistent strawmarines.
Wait, chaos gets Telemons, Relic Contemptors, and Mortis Contemptors now? When did that happen?
Ok, jokes aside, every unit you've complained about is a loyalist marines unit. The Relic Contemptor got a massive buff because whoever did the points in CA2020 forgot that it has a better save, 2 more wounds, and a 6+++ that none of the other variants have. It also has loyalist rules from the loyalist codex and supplements. Chaos doesn't have doctrines, or super doctrines, or pages on top of pages of strategems and psychic powers that, once again, gw forgot to consider fw units for when they were writing them. Thus we get crazy stuff like unkillable Iron Hands leviathans.
The Hellforged Contemptor is the same price as the Relic Contemptor, but with 2 less wounds, a 3+ save vs the Relic's 2+, and no 6+++. The Hellforged Leviathan is the same base price as the loyalist leviathan but has a 5++ against shooting while the Relic leviathan has a 4++, and butcher cannons got a massive nerf in CA2020 while stormcannon arrays stayed the same price, so the best loadout is now WAY more expensive for the Hellforged Leviathan than for the relic. Hellforged Daredeos took the same hit from the butcher cannon nerf as well. And csm don't have the same number of strong codex units to make up for the loss as loyalists.
The fact that you can only think of three fw units that are "broken" among dozens and that they are all loyalist marines units tells us exactly where the problem lies, and it isn't fw. Could you tell me what csmfw units you consider broken besides dreadnoughts? Is it my 880 PPM Hellforged Fellblade? The 680 PPM Cerberus? Dreadclaws, Hellblades, maybe my Sicaran that's currently hiding in fear of Eradicators and 2 shot multi-meltas? I know, it's the Hellforged Achilles, that Soulburner Bombard is so much better than the loyalist's quad launcher, why, gw should probably make it twice the price as the loyalist gun. Oh wait, they did.
And as far as "spamming" fw dreads, I have ONE Leviathan, ONE Daredeo, and TWO (GASP! Does that make me a WAAC player?) Contemptors. If that's spamming then cue the Monty Python references.
The units are actually very different. The choas Levi has more weapons and different and unique weapons...Plus life it regains wounds in melee. It is a melee oriented unit. Not saying which is better but they have different battlefeild rolls. The choas has better melee ability and the loyalist has better shooting ability. When it comes to contemptors though the choas version is probably better than the loyalist IMO (both are OP though). So please stop crying about it. You are just proving our point that FW has bogus balance. It makes our standard dreads in the codex obsolete. GW balance also bad. FW balance is notoriously bad and it's not a surprise why. They want to sell models. More than that too...they want to sell the models they want to sell. They can only produce so much resine per day and it's a lot easier to just mass produce a bunch of space marine dreads than it is to produce units for every army. The units they want to move have better rules...no doubt about it.
The units are actually very different. The choas Levi has more weapons and different and unique weapons...Plus life it regains wounds in melee. It is a melee oriented unit. Not saying which is better but they have different battlefeild rolls. The choas has better melee ability and the loyalist has better shooting ability. When it comes to contemptors though the choas version is probably better than the loyalist IMO (both are OP though). So please stop crying about it. You are just proving our point that FW has bogus balance. It makes our standard dreads in the codex obsolete. GW balance also bad. FW balance is notoriously bad and it's not a surprise why. They want to sell models. More than that too...they want to sell the models they want to sell. They can only produce so much resine per day and it's a lot easier to just mass produce a bunch of space marine dreads than it is to produce units for every army. The units they want to move have better rules...no doubt about it.
Both versions of the levi has exactly the same amout of options. The chaos levi can't regain life any other way than by killing stuff in melee and then rolling a 5+, the relic can be healed by any techmarine. Agreed that the chaos levi is more melee oriented, to get the equivalent invuln to its relic counterpart, it needs to be in melee.
How is the hellforged contemptor better than the loyalist ones? The loyalist one has a 6+++ and in-built reroll 1's if going full-melee and the hellforged one get a 4++ in melee. So again the relic is better than the hellforged just by virtue of being more durable if he doesnt spend the whole game locked in combat.
This whole FW conversation started because someone said they didnt consider FW as being part of the base game. It then devolved into the usual "Muh FWOP" and were just proving how only a few models are too strong and only because of the codexes theyre in (loyalist dreads).
Should boxdreads be played? absolutely, every model should be played.
Wait, chaos gets Telemons, Relic Contemptors, and Mortis Contemptors now? When did that happen?
Ok, jokes aside, every unit you've complained about is a loyalist marines unit. The Relic Contemptor got a massive buff because whoever did the points in CA2020 forgot that it has a better save, 2 more wounds, and a 6+++ that none of the other variants have. It also has loyalist rules from the loyalist codex and supplements. Chaos doesn't have doctrines, or super doctrines, or pages on top of pages of strategems and psychic powers that, once again, gw forgot to consider fw units for when they were writing them. Thus we get crazy stuff like unkillable Iron Hands leviathans.
The Hellforged Contemptor is the same price as the Relic Contemptor, but with 2 less wounds, a 3+ save vs the Relic's 2+, and no 6+++. The Hellforged Leviathan is the same base price as the loyalist leviathan but has a 5++ against shooting while the Relic leviathan has a 4++, and butcher cannons got a massive nerf in CA2020 while stormcannon arrays stayed the same price, so the best loadout is now WAY more expensive for the Hellforged Leviathan than for the relic. Hellforged Daredeos took the same hit from the butcher cannon nerf as well. And csm don't have the same number of strong codex units to make up for the loss as loyalists.
The fact that you can only think of three fw units that are "broken" among dozens and that they are all loyalist marines units tells us exactly where the problem lies, and it isn't fw. Could you tell me what csmfw units you consider broken besides dreadnoughts? Is it my 880 PPM Hellforged Fellblade? The 680 PPM Cerberus? Dreadclaws, Hellblades, maybe my Sicaran that's currently hiding in fear of Eradicators and 2 shot multi-meltas? I know, it's the Hellforged Achilles, that Soulburner Bombard is so much better than the loyalist's quad launcher, why, gw should probably make it twice the price as the loyalist gun. Oh wait, they did.
And as far as "spamming" fw dreads, I have ONE Leviathan, ONE Daredeo, and TWO (GASP! Does that make me a WAAC player?) Contemptors. If that's spamming then cue the Monty Python references.
and to be fair, the Night lords levi and contemptor look so cool and are one of the few things that look like night lords out of the box so its hard not to include them just for the looks.
And even then, a Hellforge leviathan with dual claws is still overpriced.
I do wonder where all these dreads were, oh wait they were all in the broken beyond reason IH supplement, but FW is the issue, not the supplement that makes basically the whole dex from allready overperforming into nonsense territory.
not to mention that the chaos versions didn't make the cut for competitive lists along time ago, yet Ibris insists that chaos spams dreads, which is nonsense, the only thing csm spammed was soup, and obliterators and sorcerers, i wonder who designed those?
In terms of what can be brought to the table in competitive choas soup. Making the cut has is probably harder than in any other army. Usually choas is dumping all its points into mega shooty stars that can destroy half your army in a single shooting phase and characters to spam smite from TS. That doesn't mean a choas contemptor isn't OP. It just doesn't fit into the combo...which is absolutely OP.
Billagio wrote: Yeah when was the last time you saw someone bring a FW unit in a competitive game that wasnt a Telemon/Levi/Relic Contemptor/Mortis (notice how theyre all Imperial?)
Yeeeah, because outside of Telemon, that list is totally not 100% spammed by Chaos lists too. Oh wait! They are!
As posters above noted, almost all factions in the game have at least one very good, if not completely broken FW unit, and one that don't are rare exception - but hey, let's complain about SM instead, because it's not like tournament players skip all GWSM/Custodes units to spam FW ones (Oh wait! They do!). Really, at this point, if someone claims FW is not a problem, SM are a problem, and xenos are weak (because it's not like 2 out of 3 top factions in tournaments right now are xenos... oh wait... and third is not SM either) then it's almost 100% sure sign the whole post can be discarded without reading because nothing in it is in any way close to actual reality and is just excuse to bash nonexistent strawmarines.
Wait, chaos gets Telemons, Relic Contemptors, and Mortis Contemptors now? When did that happen?
Ok, jokes aside, every unit you've complained about is a loyalist marines unit. The Relic Contemptor got a massive buff because whoever did the points in CA2020 forgot that it has a better save, 2 more wounds, and a 6+++ that none of the other variants have. It also has loyalist rules from the loyalist codex and supplements. Chaos doesn't have doctrines, or super doctrines, or pages on top of pages of strategems and psychic powers that, once again, gw forgot to consider fw units for when they were writing them. Thus we get crazy stuff like unkillable Iron Hands leviathans.
The Hellforged Contemptor is the same price as the Relic Contemptor, but with 2 less wounds, a 3+ save vs the Relic's 2+, and no 6+++. The Hellforged Leviathan is the same base price as the loyalist leviathan but has a 5++ against shooting while the Relic leviathan has a 4++, and butcher cannons got a massive nerf in CA2020 while stormcannon arrays stayed the same price, so the best loadout is now WAY more expensive for the Hellforged Leviathan than for the relic. Hellforged Daredeos took the same hit from the butcher cannon nerf as well. And csm don't have the same number of strong codex units to make up for the loss as loyalists.
The fact that you can only think of three fw units that are "broken" among dozens and that they are all loyalist marines units tells us exactly where the problem lies, and it isn't fw. Could you tell me what csmfw units you consider broken besides dreadnoughts? Is it my 880 PPM Hellforged Fellblade? The 680 PPM Cerberus? Dreadclaws, Hellblades, maybe my Sicaran that's currently hiding in fear of Eradicators and 2 shot multi-meltas? I know, it's the Hellforged Achilles, that Soulburner Bombard is so much better than the loyalist's quad launcher, why, gw should probably make it twice the price as the loyalist gun. Oh wait, they did.
And as far as "spamming" fw dreads, I have ONE Leviathan, ONE Daredeo, and TWO (GASP! Does that make me a WAAC player?) Contemptors. If that's spamming then cue the Monty Python references.
The units are actually very different. The choas Levi has more weapons and different and unique weapons...Plus life it regains wounds in melee. It is a melee oriented unit. Not saying which is better but they have different battlefeild rolls. The choas has better melee ability and the loyalist has better shooting ability. When it comes to contemptors though the choas version is probably better than the loyalist IMO (both are OP though). So please stop crying about it. You are just proving our point that FW has bogus balance. It makes our standard dreads in the codex obsolete. GW balance also bad. FW balance is notoriously bad and it's not a surprise why. They want to sell models. More than that too...they want to sell the models they want to sell. They can only produce so much resine per day and it's a lot easier to just mass produce a bunch of space marine dreads than it is to produce units for every army. The units they want to move have better rules...no doubt about it.
Ok, exactly how is the Hellforged Contemptor better than the relic? And for the billionth timegw has been doing all the balancing for fw since CA2018. Please, commence "crying" about Forge World.
Oh, and your wrong, as usual, about Leviathans. The Hellforged doesn't have more weapons. They both have two arm weapons and two torso weapons. The relic has the option to take HK missiles, the Hellforged has no similar option, so you have it backwards.
In terms of what can be brought to the table in competitive choas soup. Making the cut has is probably harder than in any other army. Usually choas is dumping all its points into mega shooty stars that can destroy half your army in a single shooting phase and characters to spam smite from TS. That doesn't mean a choas contemptor isn't OP. It just doesn't fit into the combo...which is absolutely OP.
Chaos hasnt been like that since before covid.
Thousand sons stopped being a smite battery with their PA.
The chaos soup list youre talking about was nerfed with CA 2019.
and please tell me what "shooty stars" chaos plays that requires all its points.
The units are actually very different. The choas Levi has more weapons and different and unique weapons...Plus life it regains wounds in melee. It is a melee oriented unit. Not saying which is better but they have different battlefeild rolls. The choas has better melee ability and the loyalist has better shooting ability. When it comes to contemptors though the choas version is probably better than the loyalist IMO (both are OP though). So please stop crying about it. You are just proving our point that FW has bogus balance. It makes our standard dreads in the codex obsolete. GW balance also bad. FW balance is notoriously bad and it's not a surprise why. They want to sell models. More than that too...they want to sell the models they want to sell. They can only produce so much resine per day and it's a lot easier to just mass produce a bunch of space marine dreads than it is to produce units for every army. The units they want to move have better rules...no doubt about it.
Both versions of the levi has exactly the same amout of options. The chaos levi can't regain life any other way than by killing stuff in melee and then rolling a 5+, the relic can be healed by any techmarine. Agreed that the chaos levi is more melee oriented, to get the equivalent invuln to its relic counterpart, it needs to be in melee.
How is the hellforged contemptor better than the loyalist ones? The loyalist one has a 6+++ and in-built reroll 1's if going full-melee and the hellforged one get a 4++ in melee. So again the relic is better than the hellforged just by virtue of being more durable if he doesnt spend the whole game locked in combat.
This whole FW conversation started because someone said they didnt consider FW as being part of the base game. It then devolved into the usual "Muh FWOP" and were just proving how only a few models are too strong and only because of the codexes theyre in (loyalist dreads).
Should boxdreads be played? absolutely, every model should be played.
I believe the hellforged has 2 more guns. BS could be incorrect but it seems it has 2x flamers and 2x meltas - relic levi only has the flamers and the loyalist does not have the ability to regain wounds in melee. There is a tradeoff being made here - wether it plays out on the battlefield is one thing but these units are designed with different purposes. It seems the soulburner was heavily nerfed but I've seen a duo of soulburnered hellforged leviathans leviathans do crazy things. Relic levi can not spue mortal wounds.
Lets just focus on the topic here. Many codex units are heald back by the resine gods. LR and box-dreads appear to be the most effected here. LR Helios and Achillies are just hands down better than their codex counterparts...much like venerable dreads and hellbrutes are crushed by their FW counterparts too.
I believe the hellforged has 2 more guns. BS could be incorrect but it seems it has 2x flamers and 2x meltas - relic levi only has the flamers and the loyalist does not have the ability to regain wounds in melee. There is a tradeoff being made here - wether it plays out on the battlefield is one thing but these units are designed with different purposes. It seems the soulburner was heavily nerfed but I've seen a duo of soulburnered hellforged leviathans leviathans do crazy things. Relic levi can not spue mortal wounds.
Lets just focus on the topic here. Many codex units are heald back by the resine gods. LR and box-dreads appear to be the most effected here. LR Helios and Achillies are just hands down better than their codex counterparts...much like venerable dreads and hellbrutes are crushed by their FW counterparts too.
The hellforged CANNOT heal by ANY OTHER MEANS than by eating stuff in melee. Your techmarines can heal them by existing to make them more resilient while we need to kill stuff in combat and still only have 1/3 chance to heal 1 wound.
Relic has a 4++, hellforged has a 5++ that becomes 4++ in melee.
a duo of soulburner levis is 800pts for 8d3 mortals at 18".
On-topic:
The good point of codex dreads is their cheap pts cost but paying the 60pts difference gets you so much more in a contemptor vs a helbrute (with anti-tank shooting options)
The units are actually very different. The choas Levi has more weapons and different and unique weapons...Plus life it regains wounds in melee. It is a melee oriented unit. Not saying which is better but they have different battlefeild rolls. The choas has better melee ability and the loyalist has better shooting ability. When it comes to contemptors though the choas version is probably better than the loyalist IMO (both are OP though). So please stop crying about it. You are just proving our point that FW has bogus balance. It makes our standard dreads in the codex obsolete. GW balance also bad. FW balance is notoriously bad and it's not a surprise why. They want to sell models. More than that too...they want to sell the models they want to sell. They can only produce so much resine per day and it's a lot easier to just mass produce a bunch of space marine dreads than it is to produce units for every army. The units they want to move have better rules...no doubt about it.
Both versions of the levi has exactly the same amout of options. The chaos levi can't regain life any other way than by killing stuff in melee and then rolling a 5+, the relic can be healed by any techmarine. Agreed that the chaos levi is more melee oriented, to get the equivalent invuln to its relic counterpart, it needs to be in melee.
How is the hellforged contemptor better than the loyalist ones? The loyalist one has a 6+++ and in-built reroll 1's if going full-melee and the hellforged one get a 4++ in melee. So again the relic is better than the hellforged just by virtue of being more durable if he doesnt spend the whole game locked in combat.
This whole FW conversation started because someone said they didnt consider FW as being part of the base game. It then devolved into the usual "Muh FWOP" and were just proving how only a few models are too strong and only because of the codexes theyre in (loyalist dreads).
Should boxdreads be played? absolutely, every model should be played.
I believe the hellforged has 2 more guns. BS could be incorrect but it seems it has 2x flamers and 2x meltas - relic levi only has the flamers and the loyalist does not have the ability to regain wounds in melee. There is a tradeoff being made here - wether it plays out on the battlefield is one thing but these units are designed with different purposes. It seems the soulburner was heavily nerfed but I've seen a duo of soulburnered hellforged leviathans leviathans do crazy things. Relic levi can not spue mortal wounds.
Lets just focus on the topic here. Many codex units are heald back by the resine gods. LR and box-dreads appear to be the most effected here. LR Helios and Achillies are just hands down better than their codex counterparts...much like venerable dreads and hellbrutes are crushed by their FW counterparts too.
Xeno, the meltas are in the close combat arms, the relic has the exact same thing. And fw units aren't holding back codex units. The fw units you mentioned are all more expensive than their codex counterparts. Stronger units, more points. Next you'll be telling me my Chosen are holding back my csm.
Edit: And you still haven't explained your reasoning for why the Hellforged Contemptor is better than the Relic. I wait with baited breath.
Thats weird cause typically they attached those weapons to the fist in the unit profile so you equip them together. They must be optional.
Cost a little more points to be a lot better. It's the definition of OP compared to a weaker unit. Especially now with slots being actually limited as opposed to 8th when you could spam any slot no problem. Getting more power into your power slots is going to be that much better.
Xenomancers wrote: Thats weird cause typically they attached those weapons to the fist in the unit profile so you equip them together. They must be optional.
Cost a little more points to be a lot better. It's the definition of OP compared to a weaker unit. Especially now with slots being actually limited as opposed to 8th when you could spam any slot no problem. Getting more power into your power slots is going to be that much better.
No, they aren't "optional". You're just talking about rules for things you don't know about. And nothing that is priced correctly is OP. If it's too cheap for what it does it's OP, like Eradicators and Relic Contemptors.
Xenomancers wrote: Thats weird cause typically they attached those weapons to the fist in the unit profile so you equip them together. They must be optional.
Cost a little more points to be a lot better. It's the definition of OP compared to a weaker unit. Especially now with slots being actually limited as opposed to 8th when you could spam any slot no problem. Getting more power into your power slots is going to be that much better.
No, they aren't "optional". You're just talking about rules for things you don't know about. And nothing that is priced correctly is OP. If it's too cheap for what it does it's OP, like Eradicators and Relic Contemptors.
I literally told you I was looking at the battle scribe profile. It does not attach the melta gun to the dreadfist and it lets you add and remove them regardless of your weapon options..unlike a dread whos fist comes with a SB when you select the fist. I literally said BS could be wrong because I thought it was strange. Reading is your friend. I also literally never seen the imperial armor book because about 1/100 people using FW units have it. They probably would have it if they could buy it at a GW store though.
Xenomancers wrote: Thats weird cause typically they attached those weapons to the fist in the unit profile so you equip them together. They must be optional.
Cost a little more points to be a lot better. It's the definition of OP compared to a weaker unit. Especially now with slots being actually limited as opposed to 8th when you could spam any slot no problem. Getting more power into your power slots is going to be that much better.
No, they aren't "optional". You're just talking about rules for things you don't know about. And nothing that is priced correctly is OP. If it's too cheap for what it does it's OP, like Eradicators and Relic Contemptors.
I literally told you I was looking at the battle scribe profile. It does not attach the melta gun to the dreadfist and it lets you add and remove them regardless of your weapon options..unlike a dread whos fist comes with a SB when you select the fist. I literally said BS could be wrong because I thought it was strange. Reading is your friend. I also literally never seen the imperial armor book because about 1/100 people using FW units have it. They probably would have it if they could buy it at a GW store though.
(They can and everyone who uses FW in my area either has a hard copy or the Warhammer Digital copy, which surprise surprise is also the same place you can get the codex. Furthermore the appropriate rules are in the official app which is probably a better source than a fan product.)
*sigh* That's why you don't trust Battlescribe for rules. I love it and use it as well but it's often wrong. If you play fw units you should have the Index.
But you still haven't explained how you think the Hellforged Contemptor is better than the relic, and haven't explained how something appropriately priced can be OP (yes, I read your reasoning above, but it doesn't pan out).
And as for the fw Land Raiders vs codex Land Raiders both of the fw units have a transport capacity of six standard power armoured units. That means no full squads of terminators, a Land Raider's preferred payload. On top of the increased prices.
*sigh* That's why you don't trust Battlescribe for rules. I love it and use it as well but it's often wrong. If you play fw units you should have the Index.
But you still haven't explained how you think the Hellforged Contemptor is better than the relic, and haven't explained how something appropriately priced can be OP (yes, I read your reasoning above, but it doesn't pan out).
And as for the fw Land Raiders vs codex Land Raiders both of the fw units have a transport capacity of six standard power armoured units. That means no full squads of terminators, a Land Raider's preferred payload. On top of the increased prices.
Terms dont need transport - they deep strike and the LR is actually a very bad transport. This is a game of target priority. If Your strongest unit is also the unit I benefit most from killing because it immobilizes another powerful unit it just puts a target on your head and gives more value to your best units being targeted. They only way that could work if your LR had durability with a good PPW. LR PWW is one of the worst in the codex and no freaking invune save ether. To add insult to injury when the unit dies you lose whole models on a roll of a 1 when the transport dies. Again. It doesn't work.
*sigh* That's why you don't trust Battlescribe for rules. I love it and use it as well but it's often wrong. If you play fw units you should have the Index.
But you still haven't explained how you think the Hellforged Contemptor is better than the relic, and haven't explained how something appropriately priced can be OP (yes, I read your reasoning above, but it doesn't pan out).
And as for the fw Land Raiders vs codex Land Raiders both of the fw units have a transport capacity of six standard power armoured units. That means no full squads of terminators, a Land Raider's preferred payload. On top of the increased prices.
Terms dont need transport - they deep strike and the LR is actually a very bad transport. This is a game of target priority. If Your strongest unit is also the unit I benefit most from killing because it immobilizes another powerful unit it just puts a target on your head and gives more value to your best units being targeted. They only way that could work if your LR had durability with a good PPW. LR PWW is one of the worst in the codex and no freaking invune save ether. To add insult to injury when the unit dies you lose whole models on a roll of a 1 when the transport dies. Again. It doesn't work.
I fully agree that Land Raiders are overpriced. I'll not go into why it could be a good idea to use one to transport terminators, as that was discussed up thread. But the very existence of the fw Land Raiders doesn't hurt codex Land Raiders, gw's rules for them does that. Same for dreadnoughts. But you still haven't explained why you think that the Hellforged Contemptor is better than the relic contemptor. Let's hear your reasoning.
*sigh* That's why you don't trust Battlescribe for rules. I love it and use it as well but it's often wrong. If you play fw units you should have the Index.
But you still haven't explained how you think the Hellforged Contemptor is better than the relic, and haven't explained how something appropriately priced can be OP (yes, I read your reasoning above, but it doesn't pan out).
And as for the fw Land Raiders vs codex Land Raiders both of the fw units have a transport capacity of six standard power armoured units. That means no full squads of terminators, a Land Raider's preferred payload. On top of the increased prices.
Terms dont need transport - they deep strike and the LR is actually a very bad transport. This is a game of target priority. If Your strongest unit is also the unit I benefit most from killing because it immobilizes another powerful unit it just puts a target on your head and gives more value to your best units being targeted. They only way that could work if your LR had durability with a good PPW. LR PWW is one of the worst in the codex and no freaking invune save ether. To add insult to injury when the unit dies you lose whole models on a roll of a 1 when the transport dies. Again. It doesn't work.
I fully agree that Land Raiders are overpriced. I'll not go into why it could be a good idea to use one to transport terminators, as that was discussed up thread. But the very existence of the fw Land Raiders doesn't hurt codex Land Raiders, gw's rules for them does that. Same for dreadnoughts. But you still haven't explained why you think that the Hellforged Contemptor is better than the relic contemptor. Let's hear your reasoning.
Hint: theres no reasoning, he probably still thinks that triple dread The purge list is what is top tier for CSM, and hes not realising that people were using deredeos and levis before getting to contemptors in that list anyway
*sigh* That's why you don't trust Battlescribe for rules. I love it and use it as well but it's often wrong. If you play fw units you should have the Index.
But you still haven't explained how you think the Hellforged Contemptor is better than the relic, and haven't explained how something appropriately priced can be OP (yes, I read your reasoning above, but it doesn't pan out).
And as for the fw Land Raiders vs codex Land Raiders both of the fw units have a transport capacity of six standard power armoured units. That means no full squads of terminators, a Land Raider's preferred payload. On top of the increased prices.
Terms dont need transport - they deep strike and the LR is actually a very bad transport. This is a game of target priority. If Your strongest unit is also the unit I benefit most from killing because it immobilizes another powerful unit it just puts a target on your head and gives more value to your best units being targeted. They only way that could work if your LR had durability with a good PPW. LR PWW is one of the worst in the codex and no freaking invune save ether. To add insult to injury when the unit dies you lose whole models on a roll of a 1 when the transport dies. Again. It doesn't work.
I fully agree that Land Raiders are overpriced. I'll not go into why it could be a good idea to use one to transport terminators, as that was discussed up thread. But the very existence of the fw Land Raiders doesn't hurt codex Land Raiders, gw's rules for them does that. Same for dreadnoughts. But you still haven't explained why you think that the Hellforged Contemptor is better than the relic contemptor. Let's hear your reasoning.
Hint: theres no reasoning, he probably still thinks that triple dread The purge list is what is top tier for CSM, and hes not realising that people were using deredeos and levis before getting to contemptors in that list anyway
I didn't state the the hellforged levi is better than the loyalist levi. I'd take a loyalist relic over it for multiple reasons. #1 being I am not a heretic. #2 I prefer shooting over melee. #3 when I feel like being a heretic I play with daemon engines. The loyalist 2x storm cannon levi is the better of the 2 undeniably. I used to play with it every game back with gman rerolling everything and 40 intercessors. That was fun but levi has been retired now. I like actually having friends. Not sure how this devolved into a debate over space marines being OP or not. My complaint was about FWLR being way better than codex LR by a large margin. I believe all LR should have 4++ save. I think it would fix them more or less. FWLR has 4++ and nobody cares...Standard LR has a 4++ and people lose their minds...
With that said, complaining about not being able to repair the Hellforged one is silly because repair abilities for CSM are simply NOT good to begin with hahaha
*sigh* That's why you don't trust Battlescribe for rules. I love it and use it as well but it's often wrong. If you play fw units you should have the Index.
But you still haven't explained how you think the Hellforged Contemptor is better than the relic, and haven't explained how something appropriately priced can be OP (yes, I read your reasoning above, but it doesn't pan out).
And as for the fw Land Raiders vs codex Land Raiders both of the fw units have a transport capacity of six standard power armoured units. That means no full squads of terminators, a Land Raider's preferred payload. On top of the increased prices.
Terms dont need transport - they deep strike and the LR is actually a very bad transport. This is a game of target priority. If Your strongest unit is also the unit I benefit most from killing because it immobilizes another powerful unit it just puts a target on your head and gives more value to your best units being targeted. They only way that could work if your LR had durability with a good PPW. LR PWW is one of the worst in the codex and no freaking invune save ether. To add insult to injury when the unit dies you lose whole models on a roll of a 1 when the transport dies. Again. It doesn't work.
I fully agree that Land Raiders are overpriced. I'll not go into why it could be a good idea to use one to transport terminators, as that was discussed up thread. But the very existence of the fw Land Raiders doesn't hurt codex Land Raiders, gw's rules for them does that. Same for dreadnoughts. But you still haven't explained why you think that the Hellforged Contemptor is better than the relic contemptor. Let's hear your reasoning.
Hint: theres no reasoning, he probably still thinks that triple dread The purge list is what is top tier for CSM, and hes not realising that people were using deredeos and levis before getting to contemptors in that list anyway
I didn't state the the hellforged levi is better than the loyalist levi. I'd take a loyalist relic over it for multiple reasons. #1 being I am not a heretic. #2 I prefer shooting over melee. #3 when I feel like being a heretic I play with daemon engines. The loyalist 2x storm cannon levi is the better of the 2 undeniably. I used to play with it every game back with gman rerolling everything and 40 intercessors. That was fun but levi has been retired now. I like actually having friends. Not sure how this devolved into a debate over space marines being OP or not. My complaint was about FWLR being way better than codex LR by a large margin. I believe all LR should have 4++ save. I think it would fix them more or less. FWLR has 4++ and nobody cares...Standard LR has a 4++ and people lose their minds...
There's no problem with a standard Land Raider having a 4++ as long as there's a lore reason for it to have one and you pay the points to get it. A 4++ is a pretty big buff, how much would it be worth to you?
And no, you didn't say that the hellforged leviathan was better than the relic leviathan, you said:
Xenomancers wrote:When it comes to contemptors though the choas version is probably better than the loyalist IMO (both are OP though).
So how is the Hellforged Contemptor better than the Relic Contemptor?
*sigh* That's why you don't trust Battlescribe for rules. I love it and use it as well but it's often wrong. If you play fw units you should have the Index.
But you still haven't explained how you think the Hellforged Contemptor is better than the relic, and haven't explained how something appropriately priced can be OP (yes, I read your reasoning above, but it doesn't pan out).
And as for the fw Land Raiders vs codex Land Raiders both of the fw units have a transport capacity of six standard power armoured units. That means no full squads of terminators, a Land Raider's preferred payload. On top of the increased prices.
Terms dont need transport - they deep strike and the LR is actually a very bad transport. This is a game of target priority. If Your strongest unit is also the unit I benefit most from killing because it immobilizes another powerful unit it just puts a target on your head and gives more value to your best units being targeted. They only way that could work if your LR had durability with a good PPW. LR PWW is one of the worst in the codex and no freaking invune save ether. To add insult to injury when the unit dies you lose whole models on a roll of a 1 when the transport dies. Again. It doesn't work.
I fully agree that Land Raiders are overpriced. I'll not go into why it could be a good idea to use one to transport terminators, as that was discussed up thread. But the very existence of the fw Land Raiders doesn't hurt codex Land Raiders, gw's rules for them does that. Same for dreadnoughts. But you still haven't explained why you think that the Hellforged Contemptor is better than the relic contemptor. Let's hear your reasoning.
Hint: theres no reasoning, he probably still thinks that triple dread The purge list is what is top tier for CSM, and hes not realising that people were using deredeos and levis before getting to contemptors in that list anyway
I didn't state the the hellforged levi is better than the loyalist levi. I'd take a loyalist relic over it for multiple reasons. #1 being I am not a heretic. #2 I prefer shooting over melee. #3 when I feel like being a heretic I play with daemon engines. The loyalist 2x storm cannon levi is the better of the 2 undeniably. I used to play with it every game back with gman rerolling everything and 40 intercessors. That was fun but levi has been retired now. I like actually having friends. Not sure how this devolved into a debate over space marines being OP or not. My complaint was about FWLR being way better than codex LR by a large margin. I believe all LR should have 4++ save. I think it would fix them more or less. FWLR has 4++ and nobody cares...Standard LR has a 4++ and people lose their minds...
There's no problem with a standard Land Raider having a 4++ as long as there's a lore reason for it to have one and you pay the points to get it. A 4++ is a pretty big buff, how much would it be worth to you?
And no, you didn't say that the hellforged leviathan was better than the relic leviathan, you said:
Xenomancers wrote:When it comes to contemptors though the choas version is probably better than the loyalist IMO (both are OP though).
So how is the Hellforged Contemptor better than the Relic Contemptor?
For me the Hellforged one is better because you can take multiple without the extra unit tax, I also like that it regains wounds in CC as I run world eaters, this is purely subjective of course but I like my Heresy Tech in my World eaters army.
*sigh* That's why you don't trust Battlescribe for rules. I love it and use it as well but it's often wrong. If you play fw units you should have the Index.
But you still haven't explained how you think the Hellforged Contemptor is better than the relic, and haven't explained how something appropriately priced can be OP (yes, I read your reasoning above, but it doesn't pan out).
And as for the fw Land Raiders vs codex Land Raiders both of the fw units have a transport capacity of six standard power armoured units. That means no full squads of terminators, a Land Raider's preferred payload. On top of the increased prices.
Terms dont need transport - they deep strike and the LR is actually a very bad transport. This is a game of target priority. If Your strongest unit is also the unit I benefit most from killing because it immobilizes another powerful unit it just puts a target on your head and gives more value to your best units being targeted. They only way that could work if your LR had durability with a good PPW. LR PWW is one of the worst in the codex and no freaking invune save ether. To add insult to injury when the unit dies you lose whole models on a roll of a 1 when the transport dies. Again. It doesn't work.
I fully agree that Land Raiders are overpriced. I'll not go into why it could be a good idea to use one to transport terminators, as that was discussed up thread. But the very existence of the fw Land Raiders doesn't hurt codex Land Raiders, gw's rules for them does that. Same for dreadnoughts. But you still haven't explained why you think that the Hellforged Contemptor is better than the relic contemptor. Let's hear your reasoning.
Hint: theres no reasoning, he probably still thinks that triple dread The purge list is what is top tier for CSM, and hes not realising that people were using deredeos and levis before getting to contemptors in that list anyway
I didn't state the the hellforged levi is better than the loyalist levi. I'd take a loyalist relic over it for multiple reasons. #1 being I am not a heretic. #2 I prefer shooting over melee. #3 when I feel like being a heretic I play with daemon engines. The loyalist 2x storm cannon levi is the better of the 2 undeniably. I used to play with it every game back with gman rerolling everything and 40 intercessors. That was fun but levi has been retired now. I like actually having friends. Not sure how this devolved into a debate over space marines being OP or not. My complaint was about FWLR being way better than codex LR by a large margin. I believe all LR should have 4++ save. I think it would fix them more or less. FWLR has 4++ and nobody cares...Standard LR has a 4++ and people lose their minds...
There's no problem with a standard Land Raider having a 4++ as long as there's a lore reason for it to have one and you pay the points to get it. A 4++ is a pretty big buff, how much would it be worth to you?
And no, you didn't say that the hellforged leviathan was better than the relic leviathan, you said:
Xenomancers wrote:When it comes to contemptors though the choas version is probably better than the loyalist IMO (both are OP though).
So how is the Hellforged Contemptor better than the Relic Contemptor?
The 2x butcher cannon is just great? Vs a lot of unit profiles it ends up being better than quad las contetmptor. It can regain wounds from getting kills. True no 6+ FNP since it will primarily be killing infantry units with t4 it will probably get more value out of the 5+ on kill for heals. It just has the best all arounder weapon which is what you want for your heavy hitters. The relic contemptor mortis does have 12 wounds though which is pretty fantastic. It does cost slightly more though with quad las. Again I said "probably" as in an all arounder it's better IMO. Just an opinion and not a very important one. Just - I think we can agree these dreads loyalist and choas are OP compared to the codex units.
*sigh* That's why you don't trust Battlescribe for rules. I love it and use it as well but it's often wrong. If you play fw units you should have the Index.
But you still haven't explained how you think the Hellforged Contemptor is better than the relic, and haven't explained how something appropriately priced can be OP (yes, I read your reasoning above, but it doesn't pan out).
And as for the fw Land Raiders vs codex Land Raiders both of the fw units have a transport capacity of six standard power armoured units. That means no full squads of terminators, a Land Raider's preferred payload. On top of the increased prices.
Terms dont need transport - they deep strike and the LR is actually a very bad transport. This is a game of target priority. If Your strongest unit is also the unit I benefit most from killing because it immobilizes another powerful unit it just puts a target on your head and gives more value to your best units being targeted. They only way that could work if your LR had durability with a good PPW. LR PWW is one of the worst in the codex and no freaking invune save ether. To add insult to injury when the unit dies you lose whole models on a roll of a 1 when the transport dies. Again. It doesn't work.
I fully agree that Land Raiders are overpriced. I'll not go into why it could be a good idea to use one to transport terminators, as that was discussed up thread. But the very existence of the fw Land Raiders doesn't hurt codex Land Raiders, gw's rules for them does that. Same for dreadnoughts. But you still haven't explained why you think that the Hellforged Contemptor is better than the relic contemptor. Let's hear your reasoning.
Hint: theres no reasoning, he probably still thinks that triple dread The purge list is what is top tier for CSM, and hes not realising that people were using deredeos and levis before getting to contemptors in that list anyway
I didn't state the the hellforged levi is better than the loyalist levi. I'd take a loyalist relic over it for multiple reasons. #1 being I am not a heretic. #2 I prefer shooting over melee. #3 when I feel like being a heretic I play with daemon engines. The loyalist 2x storm cannon levi is the better of the 2 undeniably. I used to play with it every game back with gman rerolling everything and 40 intercessors. That was fun but levi has been retired now. I like actually having friends. Not sure how this devolved into a debate over space marines being OP or not. My complaint was about FWLR being way better than codex LR by a large margin. I believe all LR should have 4++ save. I think it would fix them more or less. FWLR has 4++ and nobody cares...Standard LR has a 4++ and people lose their minds...
There's no problem with a standard Land Raider having a 4++ as long as there's a lore reason for it to have one and you pay the points to get it. A 4++ is a pretty big buff, how much would it be worth to you?
And no, you didn't say that the hellforged leviathan was better than the relic leviathan, you said:
Xenomancers wrote:When it comes to contemptors though the choas version is probably better than the loyalist IMO (both are OP though).
So how is the Hellforged Contemptor better than the Relic Contemptor?
The 2x butcher cannon is just great? Vs a lot of unit profiles it ends up being better than quad las contetmptor. It can regain wounds from getting kills. True no 6+ FNP since it will primarily be killing infantry units with t4 it will probably get more value out of the 5+ on kill for heals. It just has the best all arounder weapon which is what you want for your heavy hitters. The relic contemptor mortis does have 12 wounds though which is pretty fantastic. It does cost slightly more though with quad las. Again I said "probably" as in an all arounder it's better IMO. Just an opinion and not a very important one. Just - I think we can agree these dreads loyalist and choas are OP compared to the codex units.
It gets wounds back on kills in melee. Not any kills. And it cannot be healed otherwise.
So, for 10 points cheaper, you lose...
1 Point of Strength on the guns (which matters-S8 down to S7 is a big deal) Always having 4 attacks in melee (basically irrelevant, given that they're S7 AP0 D1 attacks) -2 Leadership (non-stacking) if you kill something 5+ per model killed in melee to regain a lost wound 4++ in Melee
And you gain...
2 wounds A 6+ FNP 12" range Always having 9" move 2+ Armor The ability to be healed by outside sources The much better ranged SM support
I will agree, S8 is an important breakpoint. But does that justify an extra 16 points and all that?
Hell, in a one-on-one shootout between the two, giving the Hellforged T1 (which is not as likely, given the Relic's superior range)...
8 shots 40/6 or 20/3 hits 40/9 wounds 40/27 failed saves 80/27 damage 400/162 or 200/81 damage 2.47 damage
8 shots 40/6 or 20/3 hits 20/6 or 10/3 wounds 10/6 or 5/3 failed saves 10/3 damage 3.33 damage
The Relic does MORE DAMAGE to a Hellforged than the Hellforged does to the Relic. It takes only three turns of the Relic firing (at full BS, admittedly) to kill a Hellforged, whereas it takes five for the Hellforged to kill a Relic.
Add in strats (such as Duty Eternal or Wisdom of the Ancients as compared to... Basically nothing from CSM) or support (Captain/CM and Lieutenant, as compared to a Lord for the CSM) and it gets worse.
JNAProductions wrote: It gets wounds back on kills in melee. Not any kills. And it cannot be healed otherwise.
So, for 16 points cheaper, you lose...
1 Point of Strength on the guns (which matters-S8 down to S7 is a big deal)
Always having 4 attacks in melee (basically irrelevant, given that they're S7 AP0 D1 attacks)
-2 Leadership (non-stacking) if you kill something
5+ per model killed in melee to regain a lost wound
And you gain...
2 wounds
A 6+ FNP 12" range
Always having 9" move
2+ Armor
4++ all the time, instead of only in melee
The ability to be healed by outside sources
The much better ranged SM support
I will agree, S8 is an important breakpoint. But does that justify an extra 16 points and all that?
Hell, in a one-on-one shootout between the two, giving the Hellforged T1 (which is not as likely, given the Relic's superior range)...
8 shots
40/6 or 20/3 hits
40/9 wounds
40/27 failed saves
80/27 damage
400/162 or 200/81 damage
2.47 damage
8 shots
40/6 or 20/3 hits
20/6 or 10/3 wounds
10/6 or 5/3 failed saves
10/3 damage
3.33 damage
The Relic does MORE DAMAGE to a Hellforged than the Hellforged does to the Relic. It takes only three turns of the Relic firing (at full BS, admittedly) to kill a Hellforged, whereas it takes five for the Hellforged to kill a Relic.
Add in strats (such as Transhuman or Wisdom of the Ancients as compared to... Basically nothing from CSM) or support (Captain/CM and Lieutenant, as compared to a Lord for the CSM) and it gets worse.
A few things here:
1) The relic contemptor is 10 pts cheaper with the dual twin autocannons (which is the loadout I assume you are referring to) not 16 pts cheaper.
2) The relic contemptor does not get a 4++ all the time.
3) SM vechiles can't use transhuman. You are probably thinking of duty eternal.
Also your math is off my shows 2.96 wounds for the hellforged. (8*(5/6)*(2/3)*(1/3)*2)=2.96
Also I would agree with Xenomancer on the butcher cannon. +1 Str and the LD penalty is better than 5pts and 12" range. With everyone I know switching to the smaller boards I think any additional range beyond 36" is overkill at this point.
Or, alternately, all of their units are a tax. I love the "A little of everything" lists. Even with Min Size units SM have a hard to impossible time taking a little of everything. 20-30 (4x5 or 3x10 depending on edition - This edition might be 4x5 or more as I'm not sure 20 ObSec models is enough while last edition I was doing 3x10 - Intercessors, Infiltrators, Sniper Scouts) troops of two or more different kinds, some jump dudes, some close combat, some light to medium vehicles, some medium to a heavy vehicle, some long range zap, a little beatstick, a little psychic, etc. I even like that I can't fit it all in one list, and that I can fit it in a hundred different lists in a hundred different ways. But in some ways the base price of SM is its own tax, you have to skimp somewhere.
Or, alternately, all of their units are a tax. I love the "A little of everything" lists. Even with Min Size units SM have a hard to impossible time taking a little of everything. 20-30 (4x5 or 3x10 depending on edition - This edition might be 4x5 or more as I'm not sure 20 ObSec models is enough while last edition I was doing 3x10 - Intercessors, Infiltrators, Sniper Scouts) troops of two or more different kinds, some jump dudes, some close combat, some light to medium vehicles, some medium to a heavy vehicle, some long range zap, a little beatstick, a little psychic, etc. I even like that I can't fit it all in one list, and that I can fit it in a hundred different lists in a hundred different ways. But in some ways the base price of SM is its own tax, you have to skimp somewhere.
You can talk about tax Units when you have Units that are actually a liability that you are forced to field , Like f.e. r&h troop infantry.
Then you can talk about tax Units and before that , no sorry.
*sigh* That's why you don't trust Battlescribe for rules. I love it and use it as well but it's often wrong. If you play fw units you should have the Index.
But you still haven't explained how you think the Hellforged Contemptor is better than the relic, and haven't explained how something appropriately priced can be OP (yes, I read your reasoning above, but it doesn't pan out).
And as for the fw Land Raiders vs codex Land Raiders both of the fw units have a transport capacity of six standard power armoured units. That means no full squads of terminators, a Land Raider's preferred payload. On top of the increased prices.
Terms dont need transport - they deep strike and the LR is actually a very bad transport. This is a game of target priority. If Your strongest unit is also the unit I benefit most from killing because it immobilizes another powerful unit it just puts a target on your head and gives more value to your best units being targeted. They only way that could work if your LR had durability with a good PPW. LR PWW is one of the worst in the codex and no freaking invune save ether. To add insult to injury when the unit dies you lose whole models on a roll of a 1 when the transport dies. Again. It doesn't work.
I fully agree that Land Raiders are overpriced. I'll not go into why it could be a good idea to use one to transport terminators, as that was discussed up thread. But the very existence of the fw Land Raiders doesn't hurt codex Land Raiders, gw's rules for them does that. Same for dreadnoughts. But you still haven't explained why you think that the Hellforged Contemptor is better than the relic contemptor. Let's hear your reasoning.
Hint: theres no reasoning, he probably still thinks that triple dread The purge list is what is top tier for CSM, and hes not realising that people were using deredeos and levis before getting to contemptors in that list anyway
I didn't state the the hellforged levi is better than the loyalist levi. I'd take a loyalist relic over it for multiple reasons. #1 being I am not a heretic. #2 I prefer shooting over melee. #3 when I feel like being a heretic I play with daemon engines. The loyalist 2x storm cannon levi is the better of the 2 undeniably. I used to play with it every game back with gman rerolling everything and 40 intercessors. That was fun but levi has been retired now. I like actually having friends. Not sure how this devolved into a debate over space marines being OP or not. My complaint was about FWLR being way better than codex LR by a large margin. I believe all LR should have 4++ save. I think it would fix them more or less. FWLR has 4++ and nobody cares...Standard LR has a 4++ and people lose their minds...
There's no problem with a standard Land Raider having a 4++ as long as there's a lore reason for it to have one and you pay the points to get it. A 4++ is a pretty big buff, how much would it be worth to you?
And no, you didn't say that the hellforged leviathan was better than the relic leviathan, you said:
Xenomancers wrote:When it comes to contemptors though the choas version is probably better than the loyalist IMO (both are OP though).
So how is the Hellforged Contemptor better than the Relic Contemptor?
The 2x butcher cannon is just great? Vs a lot of unit profiles it ends up being better than quad las contetmptor. It can regain wounds from getting kills. True no 6+ FNP since it will primarily be killing infantry units with t4 it will probably get more value out of the 5+ on kill for heals. It just has the best all arounder weapon which is what you want for your heavy hitters. The relic contemptor mortis does have 12 wounds though which is pretty fantastic. It does cost slightly more though with quad las. Again I said "probably" as in an all arounder it's better IMO. Just an opinion and not a very important one. Just - I think we can agree these dreads loyalist and choas are OP compared to the codex units.
Ok, so you believe that the Hellforged Contemptor is superior to the relic contemptor because you seem to erroneously believe that it can regain wounds on a 5+ for any successful kill, instead of kills made in melee which is how it actually works, and because butcher cannons are better than twin auto cannons, which they are. That's why they cost more, which is what we call balance. But if you still believe that the ability to take butcher cannons makes the Hellforged Contemptor better than the relic contemptor even though the relic is considerably more durable for the same price, fine, that's your opinion.
Or, alternately, all of their units are a tax. I love the "A little of everything" lists. Even with Min Size units SM have a hard to impossible time taking a little of everything. 20-30 (4x5 or 3x10 depending on edition - This edition might be 4x5 or more as I'm not sure 20 ObSec models is enough while last edition I was doing 3x10 - Intercessors, Infiltrators, Sniper Scouts) troops of two or more different kinds, some jump dudes, some close combat, some light to medium vehicles, some medium to a heavy vehicle, some long range zap, a little beatstick, a little psychic, etc. I even like that I can't fit it all in one list, and that I can fit it in a hundred different lists in a hundred different ways. But in some ways the base price of SM is its own tax, you have to skimp somewhere.
No, having access to so many good units that it's hard to decide which you want to include in a list isn't a "tax". A "tax unit" is one you must take even though you'd much rather take something else.
Wait, chaos gets Telemons, Relic Contemptors, and Mortis Contemptors now? When did that happen? 
