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2020/09/03 15:19:23
Subject: Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
The units are actually very different. The choas Levi has more weapons and different and unique weapons...Plus life it regains wounds in melee. It is a melee oriented unit. Not saying which is better but they have different battlefeild rolls. The choas has better melee ability and the loyalist has better shooting ability. When it comes to contemptors though the choas version is probably better than the loyalist IMO (both are OP though). So please stop crying about it. You are just proving our point that FW has bogus balance. It makes our standard dreads in the codex obsolete. GW balance also bad. FW balance is notoriously bad and it's not a surprise why. They want to sell models. More than that too...they want to sell the models they want to sell. They can only produce so much resine per day and it's a lot easier to just mass produce a bunch of space marine dreads than it is to produce units for every army. The units they want to move have better rules...no doubt about it.
Both versions of the levi has exactly the same amout of options. The chaos levi can't regain life any other way than by killing stuff in melee and then rolling a 5+, the relic can be healed by any techmarine. Agreed that the chaos levi is more melee oriented, to get the equivalent invuln to its relic counterpart, it needs to be in melee.
How is the hellforged contemptor better than the loyalist ones? The loyalist one has a 6+++ and in-built reroll 1's if going full-melee and the hellforged one get a 4++ in melee. So again the relic is better than the hellforged just by virtue of being more durable if he doesnt spend the whole game locked in combat.
This whole FW conversation started because someone said they didnt consider FW as being part of the base game. It then devolved into the usual "Muh FWOP" and were just proving how only a few models are too strong and only because of the codexes theyre in (loyalist dreads).
Should boxdreads be played? absolutely, every model should be played.
I believe the hellforged has 2 more guns. BS could be incorrect but it seems it has 2x flamers and 2x meltas - relic levi only has the flamers and the loyalist does not have the ability to regain wounds in melee. There is a tradeoff being made here - wether it plays out on the battlefield is one thing but these units are designed with different purposes. It seems the soulburner was heavily nerfed but I've seen a duo of soulburnered hellforged leviathans leviathans do crazy things. Relic levi can not spue mortal wounds.
Lets just focus on the topic here. Many codex units are heald back by the resine gods. LR and box-dreads appear to be the most effected here. LR Helios and Achillies are just hands down better than their codex counterparts...much like venerable dreads and hellbrutes are crushed by their FW counterparts too.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2020/09/03 15:29:27
Subject: Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
I believe the hellforged has 2 more guns. BS could be incorrect but it seems it has 2x flamers and 2x meltas - relic levi only has the flamers and the loyalist does not have the ability to regain wounds in melee. There is a tradeoff being made here - wether it plays out on the battlefield is one thing but these units are designed with different purposes. It seems the soulburner was heavily nerfed but I've seen a duo of soulburnered hellforged leviathans leviathans do crazy things. Relic levi can not spue mortal wounds.
Lets just focus on the topic here. Many codex units are heald back by the resine gods. LR and box-dreads appear to be the most effected here. LR Helios and Achillies are just hands down better than their codex counterparts...much like venerable dreads and hellbrutes are crushed by their FW counterparts too.
The hellforged CANNOT heal by ANY OTHER MEANS than by eating stuff in melee. Your techmarines can heal them by existing to make them more resilient while we need to kill stuff in combat and still only have 1/3 chance to heal 1 wound.
Relic has a 4++, hellforged has a 5++ that becomes 4++ in melee.
a duo of soulburner levis is 800pts for 8d3 mortals at 18".
On-topic:
The good point of codex dreads is their cheap pts cost but paying the 60pts difference gets you so much more in a contemptor vs a helbrute (with anti-tank shooting options)
2020/09/03 15:35:57
Subject: Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
The units are actually very different. The choas Levi has more weapons and different and unique weapons...Plus life it regains wounds in melee. It is a melee oriented unit. Not saying which is better but they have different battlefeild rolls. The choas has better melee ability and the loyalist has better shooting ability. When it comes to contemptors though the choas version is probably better than the loyalist IMO (both are OP though). So please stop crying about it. You are just proving our point that FW has bogus balance. It makes our standard dreads in the codex obsolete. GW balance also bad. FW balance is notoriously bad and it's not a surprise why. They want to sell models. More than that too...they want to sell the models they want to sell. They can only produce so much resine per day and it's a lot easier to just mass produce a bunch of space marine dreads than it is to produce units for every army. The units they want to move have better rules...no doubt about it.
Both versions of the levi has exactly the same amout of options. The chaos levi can't regain life any other way than by killing stuff in melee and then rolling a 5+, the relic can be healed by any techmarine. Agreed that the chaos levi is more melee oriented, to get the equivalent invuln to its relic counterpart, it needs to be in melee.
How is the hellforged contemptor better than the loyalist ones? The loyalist one has a 6+++ and in-built reroll 1's if going full-melee and the hellforged one get a 4++ in melee. So again the relic is better than the hellforged just by virtue of being more durable if he doesnt spend the whole game locked in combat.
This whole FW conversation started because someone said they didnt consider FW as being part of the base game. It then devolved into the usual "Muh FWOP" and were just proving how only a few models are too strong and only because of the codexes theyre in (loyalist dreads).
Should boxdreads be played? absolutely, every model should be played.
I believe the hellforged has 2 more guns. BS could be incorrect but it seems it has 2x flamers and 2x meltas - relic levi only has the flamers and the loyalist does not have the ability to regain wounds in melee. There is a tradeoff being made here - wether it plays out on the battlefield is one thing but these units are designed with different purposes. It seems the soulburner was heavily nerfed but I've seen a duo of soulburnered hellforged leviathans leviathans do crazy things. Relic levi can not spue mortal wounds.
Lets just focus on the topic here. Many codex units are heald back by the resine gods. LR and box-dreads appear to be the most effected here. LR Helios and Achillies are just hands down better than their codex counterparts...much like venerable dreads and hellbrutes are crushed by their FW counterparts too.
Xeno, the meltas are in the close combat arms, the relic has the exact same thing. And fw units aren't holding back codex units. The fw units you mentioned are all more expensive than their codex counterparts. Stronger units, more points. Next you'll be telling me my Chosen are holding back my csm.
Edit: And you still haven't explained your reasoning for why the Hellforged Contemptor is better than the Relic. I wait with baited breath.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/03 15:40:54
2020/09/03 15:44:46
Subject: Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
Thats weird cause typically they attached those weapons to the fist in the unit profile so you equip them together. They must be optional.
Cost a little more points to be a lot better. It's the definition of OP compared to a weaker unit. Especially now with slots being actually limited as opposed to 8th when you could spam any slot no problem. Getting more power into your power slots is going to be that much better.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2020/09/03 15:51:59
Subject: Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
Xenomancers wrote: Thats weird cause typically they attached those weapons to the fist in the unit profile so you equip them together. They must be optional.
Cost a little more points to be a lot better. It's the definition of OP compared to a weaker unit. Especially now with slots being actually limited as opposed to 8th when you could spam any slot no problem. Getting more power into your power slots is going to be that much better.
No, they aren't "optional". You're just talking about rules for things you don't know about. And nothing that is priced correctly is OP. If it's too cheap for what it does it's OP, like Eradicators and Relic Contemptors.
2020/09/03 16:06:47
Subject: Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
Xenomancers wrote: Thats weird cause typically they attached those weapons to the fist in the unit profile so you equip them together. They must be optional.
Cost a little more points to be a lot better. It's the definition of OP compared to a weaker unit. Especially now with slots being actually limited as opposed to 8th when you could spam any slot no problem. Getting more power into your power slots is going to be that much better.
No, they aren't "optional". You're just talking about rules for things you don't know about. And nothing that is priced correctly is OP. If it's too cheap for what it does it's OP, like Eradicators and Relic Contemptors.
I literally told you I was looking at the battle scribe profile. It does not attach the melta gun to the dreadfist and it lets you add and remove them regardless of your weapon options..unlike a dread whos fist comes with a SB when you select the fist. I literally said BS could be wrong because I thought it was strange. Reading is your friend. I also literally never seen the imperial armor book because about 1/100 people using FW units have it. They probably would have it if they could buy it at a GW store though.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/03 16:08:54
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2020/09/03 16:26:37
Subject: Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
Xenomancers wrote: Thats weird cause typically they attached those weapons to the fist in the unit profile so you equip them together. They must be optional.
Cost a little more points to be a lot better. It's the definition of OP compared to a weaker unit. Especially now with slots being actually limited as opposed to 8th when you could spam any slot no problem. Getting more power into your power slots is going to be that much better.
No, they aren't "optional". You're just talking about rules for things you don't know about. And nothing that is priced correctly is OP. If it's too cheap for what it does it's OP, like Eradicators and Relic Contemptors.
I literally told you I was looking at the battle scribe profile. It does not attach the melta gun to the dreadfist and it lets you add and remove them regardless of your weapon options..unlike a dread whos fist comes with a SB when you select the fist. I literally said BS could be wrong because I thought it was strange. Reading is your friend. I also literally never seen the imperial armor book because about 1/100 people using FW units have it. They probably would have it if they could buy it at a GW store though.
(They can and everyone who uses FW in my area either has a hard copy or the Warhammer Digital copy, which surprise surprise is also the same place you can get the codex. Furthermore the appropriate rules are in the official app which is probably a better source than a fan product.)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/03 16:26:55
2020/09/03 16:29:51
Subject: Re:Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
*sigh* That's why you don't trust Battlescribe for rules. I love it and use it as well but it's often wrong. If you play fw units you should have the Index.
But you still haven't explained how you think the Hellforged Contemptor is better than the relic, and haven't explained how something appropriately priced can be OP (yes, I read your reasoning above, but it doesn't pan out).
And as for the fw Land Raiders vs codex Land Raiders both of the fw units have a transport capacity of six standard power armoured units. That means no full squads of terminators, a Land Raider's preferred payload. On top of the increased prices.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/03 16:31:37
2020/09/03 16:48:03
Subject: Re:Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
*sigh* That's why you don't trust Battlescribe for rules. I love it and use it as well but it's often wrong. If you play fw units you should have the Index.
But you still haven't explained how you think the Hellforged Contemptor is better than the relic, and haven't explained how something appropriately priced can be OP (yes, I read your reasoning above, but it doesn't pan out).
And as for the fw Land Raiders vs codex Land Raiders both of the fw units have a transport capacity of six standard power armoured units. That means no full squads of terminators, a Land Raider's preferred payload. On top of the increased prices.
Terms dont need transport - they deep strike and the LR is actually a very bad transport. This is a game of target priority. If Your strongest unit is also the unit I benefit most from killing because it immobilizes another powerful unit it just puts a target on your head and gives more value to your best units being targeted. They only way that could work if your LR had durability with a good PPW. LR PWW is one of the worst in the codex and no freaking invune save ether. To add insult to injury when the unit dies you lose whole models on a roll of a 1 when the transport dies. Again. It doesn't work.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2020/09/03 16:57:51
Subject: Re:Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
*sigh* That's why you don't trust Battlescribe for rules. I love it and use it as well but it's often wrong. If you play fw units you should have the Index.
But you still haven't explained how you think the Hellforged Contemptor is better than the relic, and haven't explained how something appropriately priced can be OP (yes, I read your reasoning above, but it doesn't pan out).
And as for the fw Land Raiders vs codex Land Raiders both of the fw units have a transport capacity of six standard power armoured units. That means no full squads of terminators, a Land Raider's preferred payload. On top of the increased prices.
Terms dont need transport - they deep strike and the LR is actually a very bad transport. This is a game of target priority. If Your strongest unit is also the unit I benefit most from killing because it immobilizes another powerful unit it just puts a target on your head and gives more value to your best units being targeted. They only way that could work if your LR had durability with a good PPW. LR PWW is one of the worst in the codex and no freaking invune save ether. To add insult to injury when the unit dies you lose whole models on a roll of a 1 when the transport dies. Again. It doesn't work.
I fully agree that Land Raiders are overpriced. I'll not go into why it could be a good idea to use one to transport terminators, as that was discussed up thread. But the very existence of the fw Land Raiders doesn't hurt codex Land Raiders, gw's rules for them does that. Same for dreadnoughts. But you still haven't explained why you think that the Hellforged Contemptor is better than the relic contemptor. Let's hear your reasoning.
2020/09/03 17:00:34
Subject: Re:Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
*sigh* That's why you don't trust Battlescribe for rules. I love it and use it as well but it's often wrong. If you play fw units you should have the Index.
But you still haven't explained how you think the Hellforged Contemptor is better than the relic, and haven't explained how something appropriately priced can be OP (yes, I read your reasoning above, but it doesn't pan out).
And as for the fw Land Raiders vs codex Land Raiders both of the fw units have a transport capacity of six standard power armoured units. That means no full squads of terminators, a Land Raider's preferred payload. On top of the increased prices.
Terms dont need transport - they deep strike and the LR is actually a very bad transport. This is a game of target priority. If Your strongest unit is also the unit I benefit most from killing because it immobilizes another powerful unit it just puts a target on your head and gives more value to your best units being targeted. They only way that could work if your LR had durability with a good PPW. LR PWW is one of the worst in the codex and no freaking invune save ether. To add insult to injury when the unit dies you lose whole models on a roll of a 1 when the transport dies. Again. It doesn't work.
I fully agree that Land Raiders are overpriced. I'll not go into why it could be a good idea to use one to transport terminators, as that was discussed up thread. But the very existence of the fw Land Raiders doesn't hurt codex Land Raiders, gw's rules for them does that. Same for dreadnoughts. But you still haven't explained why you think that the Hellforged Contemptor is better than the relic contemptor. Let's hear your reasoning.
Hint: theres no reasoning, he probably still thinks that triple dread The purge list is what is top tier for CSM, and hes not realising that people were using deredeos and levis before getting to contemptors in that list anyway
2020/09/03 17:36:52
Subject: Re:Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
*sigh* That's why you don't trust Battlescribe for rules. I love it and use it as well but it's often wrong. If you play fw units you should have the Index.
But you still haven't explained how you think the Hellforged Contemptor is better than the relic, and haven't explained how something appropriately priced can be OP (yes, I read your reasoning above, but it doesn't pan out).
And as for the fw Land Raiders vs codex Land Raiders both of the fw units have a transport capacity of six standard power armoured units. That means no full squads of terminators, a Land Raider's preferred payload. On top of the increased prices.
Terms dont need transport - they deep strike and the LR is actually a very bad transport. This is a game of target priority. If Your strongest unit is also the unit I benefit most from killing because it immobilizes another powerful unit it just puts a target on your head and gives more value to your best units being targeted. They only way that could work if your LR had durability with a good PPW. LR PWW is one of the worst in the codex and no freaking invune save ether. To add insult to injury when the unit dies you lose whole models on a roll of a 1 when the transport dies. Again. It doesn't work.
I fully agree that Land Raiders are overpriced. I'll not go into why it could be a good idea to use one to transport terminators, as that was discussed up thread. But the very existence of the fw Land Raiders doesn't hurt codex Land Raiders, gw's rules for them does that. Same for dreadnoughts. But you still haven't explained why you think that the Hellforged Contemptor is better than the relic contemptor. Let's hear your reasoning.
Hint: theres no reasoning, he probably still thinks that triple dread The purge list is what is top tier for CSM, and hes not realising that people were using deredeos and levis before getting to contemptors in that list anyway
I didn't state the the hellforged levi is better than the loyalist levi. I'd take a loyalist relic over it for multiple reasons. #1 being I am not a heretic. #2 I prefer shooting over melee. #3 when I feel like being a heretic I play with daemon engines. The loyalist 2x storm cannon levi is the better of the 2 undeniably. I used to play with it every game back with gman rerolling everything and 40 intercessors. That was fun but levi has been retired now. I like actually having friends. Not sure how this devolved into a debate over space marines being OP or not. My complaint was about FWLR being way better than codex LR by a large margin. I believe all LR should have 4++ save. I think it would fix them more or less. FWLR has 4++ and nobody cares...Standard LR has a 4++ and people lose their minds...
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2020/09/03 17:40:43
Subject: Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
With that said, complaining about not being able to repair the Hellforged one is silly because repair abilities for CSM are simply NOT good to begin with hahaha
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2020/09/03 17:54:07
Subject: Re:Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
*sigh* That's why you don't trust Battlescribe for rules. I love it and use it as well but it's often wrong. If you play fw units you should have the Index.
But you still haven't explained how you think the Hellforged Contemptor is better than the relic, and haven't explained how something appropriately priced can be OP (yes, I read your reasoning above, but it doesn't pan out).
And as for the fw Land Raiders vs codex Land Raiders both of the fw units have a transport capacity of six standard power armoured units. That means no full squads of terminators, a Land Raider's preferred payload. On top of the increased prices.
Terms dont need transport - they deep strike and the LR is actually a very bad transport. This is a game of target priority. If Your strongest unit is also the unit I benefit most from killing because it immobilizes another powerful unit it just puts a target on your head and gives more value to your best units being targeted. They only way that could work if your LR had durability with a good PPW. LR PWW is one of the worst in the codex and no freaking invune save ether. To add insult to injury when the unit dies you lose whole models on a roll of a 1 when the transport dies. Again. It doesn't work.
I fully agree that Land Raiders are overpriced. I'll not go into why it could be a good idea to use one to transport terminators, as that was discussed up thread. But the very existence of the fw Land Raiders doesn't hurt codex Land Raiders, gw's rules for them does that. Same for dreadnoughts. But you still haven't explained why you think that the Hellforged Contemptor is better than the relic contemptor. Let's hear your reasoning.
Hint: theres no reasoning, he probably still thinks that triple dread The purge list is what is top tier for CSM, and hes not realising that people were using deredeos and levis before getting to contemptors in that list anyway
I didn't state the the hellforged levi is better than the loyalist levi. I'd take a loyalist relic over it for multiple reasons. #1 being I am not a heretic. #2 I prefer shooting over melee. #3 when I feel like being a heretic I play with daemon engines. The loyalist 2x storm cannon levi is the better of the 2 undeniably. I used to play with it every game back with gman rerolling everything and 40 intercessors. That was fun but levi has been retired now. I like actually having friends. Not sure how this devolved into a debate over space marines being OP or not. My complaint was about FWLR being way better than codex LR by a large margin. I believe all LR should have 4++ save. I think it would fix them more or less. FWLR has 4++ and nobody cares...Standard LR has a 4++ and people lose their minds...
There's no problem with a standard Land Raider having a 4++ as long as there's a lore reason for it to have one and you pay the points to get it. A 4++ is a pretty big buff, how much would it be worth to you?
And no, you didn't say that the hellforged leviathan was better than the relic leviathan, you said:
Xenomancers wrote:When it comes to contemptors though the choas version is probably better than the loyalist IMO (both are OP though).
So how is the Hellforged Contemptor better than the Relic Contemptor?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/03 17:57:20
2020/09/03 18:58:33
Subject: Re:Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
*sigh* That's why you don't trust Battlescribe for rules. I love it and use it as well but it's often wrong. If you play fw units you should have the Index.
But you still haven't explained how you think the Hellforged Contemptor is better than the relic, and haven't explained how something appropriately priced can be OP (yes, I read your reasoning above, but it doesn't pan out).
And as for the fw Land Raiders vs codex Land Raiders both of the fw units have a transport capacity of six standard power armoured units. That means no full squads of terminators, a Land Raider's preferred payload. On top of the increased prices.
Terms dont need transport - they deep strike and the LR is actually a very bad transport. This is a game of target priority. If Your strongest unit is also the unit I benefit most from killing because it immobilizes another powerful unit it just puts a target on your head and gives more value to your best units being targeted. They only way that could work if your LR had durability with a good PPW. LR PWW is one of the worst in the codex and no freaking invune save ether. To add insult to injury when the unit dies you lose whole models on a roll of a 1 when the transport dies. Again. It doesn't work.
I fully agree that Land Raiders are overpriced. I'll not go into why it could be a good idea to use one to transport terminators, as that was discussed up thread. But the very existence of the fw Land Raiders doesn't hurt codex Land Raiders, gw's rules for them does that. Same for dreadnoughts. But you still haven't explained why you think that the Hellforged Contemptor is better than the relic contemptor. Let's hear your reasoning.
Hint: theres no reasoning, he probably still thinks that triple dread The purge list is what is top tier for CSM, and hes not realising that people were using deredeos and levis before getting to contemptors in that list anyway
I didn't state the the hellforged levi is better than the loyalist levi. I'd take a loyalist relic over it for multiple reasons. #1 being I am not a heretic. #2 I prefer shooting over melee. #3 when I feel like being a heretic I play with daemon engines. The loyalist 2x storm cannon levi is the better of the 2 undeniably. I used to play with it every game back with gman rerolling everything and 40 intercessors. That was fun but levi has been retired now. I like actually having friends. Not sure how this devolved into a debate over space marines being OP or not. My complaint was about FWLR being way better than codex LR by a large margin. I believe all LR should have 4++ save. I think it would fix them more or less. FWLR has 4++ and nobody cares...Standard LR has a 4++ and people lose their minds...
There's no problem with a standard Land Raider having a 4++ as long as there's a lore reason for it to have one and you pay the points to get it. A 4++ is a pretty big buff, how much would it be worth to you?
And no, you didn't say that the hellforged leviathan was better than the relic leviathan, you said:
Xenomancers wrote:When it comes to contemptors though the choas version is probably better than the loyalist IMO (both are OP though).
So how is the Hellforged Contemptor better than the Relic Contemptor?
For me the Hellforged one is better because you can take multiple without the extra unit tax, I also like that it regains wounds in CC as I run world eaters, this is purely subjective of course but I like my Heresy Tech in my World eaters army.
2020/09/03 20:08:22
Subject: Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/09/03 20:10:16
Subject: Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
*sigh* That's why you don't trust Battlescribe for rules. I love it and use it as well but it's often wrong. If you play fw units you should have the Index.
But you still haven't explained how you think the Hellforged Contemptor is better than the relic, and haven't explained how something appropriately priced can be OP (yes, I read your reasoning above, but it doesn't pan out).
And as for the fw Land Raiders vs codex Land Raiders both of the fw units have a transport capacity of six standard power armoured units. That means no full squads of terminators, a Land Raider's preferred payload. On top of the increased prices.
Terms dont need transport - they deep strike and the LR is actually a very bad transport. This is a game of target priority. If Your strongest unit is also the unit I benefit most from killing because it immobilizes another powerful unit it just puts a target on your head and gives more value to your best units being targeted. They only way that could work if your LR had durability with a good PPW. LR PWW is one of the worst in the codex and no freaking invune save ether. To add insult to injury when the unit dies you lose whole models on a roll of a 1 when the transport dies. Again. It doesn't work.
I fully agree that Land Raiders are overpriced. I'll not go into why it could be a good idea to use one to transport terminators, as that was discussed up thread. But the very existence of the fw Land Raiders doesn't hurt codex Land Raiders, gw's rules for them does that. Same for dreadnoughts. But you still haven't explained why you think that the Hellforged Contemptor is better than the relic contemptor. Let's hear your reasoning.
Hint: theres no reasoning, he probably still thinks that triple dread The purge list is what is top tier for CSM, and hes not realising that people were using deredeos and levis before getting to contemptors in that list anyway
I didn't state the the hellforged levi is better than the loyalist levi. I'd take a loyalist relic over it for multiple reasons. #1 being I am not a heretic. #2 I prefer shooting over melee. #3 when I feel like being a heretic I play with daemon engines. The loyalist 2x storm cannon levi is the better of the 2 undeniably. I used to play with it every game back with gman rerolling everything and 40 intercessors. That was fun but levi has been retired now. I like actually having friends. Not sure how this devolved into a debate over space marines being OP or not. My complaint was about FWLR being way better than codex LR by a large margin. I believe all LR should have 4++ save. I think it would fix them more or less. FWLR has 4++ and nobody cares...Standard LR has a 4++ and people lose their minds...
There's no problem with a standard Land Raider having a 4++ as long as there's a lore reason for it to have one and you pay the points to get it. A 4++ is a pretty big buff, how much would it be worth to you?
And no, you didn't say that the hellforged leviathan was better than the relic leviathan, you said:
Xenomancers wrote:When it comes to contemptors though the choas version is probably better than the loyalist IMO (both are OP though).
So how is the Hellforged Contemptor better than the Relic Contemptor?
The 2x butcher cannon is just great? Vs a lot of unit profiles it ends up being better than quad las contetmptor. It can regain wounds from getting kills. True no 6+ FNP since it will primarily be killing infantry units with t4 it will probably get more value out of the 5+ on kill for heals. It just has the best all arounder weapon which is what you want for your heavy hitters. The relic contemptor mortis does have 12 wounds though which is pretty fantastic. It does cost slightly more though with quad las. Again I said "probably" as in an all arounder it's better IMO. Just an opinion and not a very important one. Just - I think we can agree these dreads loyalist and choas are OP compared to the codex units.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2020/09/03 20:44:32
Subject: Re:Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
*sigh* That's why you don't trust Battlescribe for rules. I love it and use it as well but it's often wrong. If you play fw units you should have the Index.
But you still haven't explained how you think the Hellforged Contemptor is better than the relic, and haven't explained how something appropriately priced can be OP (yes, I read your reasoning above, but it doesn't pan out).
And as for the fw Land Raiders vs codex Land Raiders both of the fw units have a transport capacity of six standard power armoured units. That means no full squads of terminators, a Land Raider's preferred payload. On top of the increased prices.
Terms dont need transport - they deep strike and the LR is actually a very bad transport. This is a game of target priority. If Your strongest unit is also the unit I benefit most from killing because it immobilizes another powerful unit it just puts a target on your head and gives more value to your best units being targeted. They only way that could work if your LR had durability with a good PPW. LR PWW is one of the worst in the codex and no freaking invune save ether. To add insult to injury when the unit dies you lose whole models on a roll of a 1 when the transport dies. Again. It doesn't work.
I fully agree that Land Raiders are overpriced. I'll not go into why it could be a good idea to use one to transport terminators, as that was discussed up thread. But the very existence of the fw Land Raiders doesn't hurt codex Land Raiders, gw's rules for them does that. Same for dreadnoughts. But you still haven't explained why you think that the Hellforged Contemptor is better than the relic contemptor. Let's hear your reasoning.
Hint: theres no reasoning, he probably still thinks that triple dread The purge list is what is top tier for CSM, and hes not realising that people were using deredeos and levis before getting to contemptors in that list anyway
I didn't state the the hellforged levi is better than the loyalist levi. I'd take a loyalist relic over it for multiple reasons. #1 being I am not a heretic. #2 I prefer shooting over melee. #3 when I feel like being a heretic I play with daemon engines. The loyalist 2x storm cannon levi is the better of the 2 undeniably. I used to play with it every game back with gman rerolling everything and 40 intercessors. That was fun but levi has been retired now. I like actually having friends. Not sure how this devolved into a debate over space marines being OP or not. My complaint was about FWLR being way better than codex LR by a large margin. I believe all LR should have 4++ save. I think it would fix them more or less. FWLR has 4++ and nobody cares...Standard LR has a 4++ and people lose their minds...
There's no problem with a standard Land Raider having a 4++ as long as there's a lore reason for it to have one and you pay the points to get it. A 4++ is a pretty big buff, how much would it be worth to you?
And no, you didn't say that the hellforged leviathan was better than the relic leviathan, you said:
Xenomancers wrote:When it comes to contemptors though the choas version is probably better than the loyalist IMO (both are OP though).
So how is the Hellforged Contemptor better than the Relic Contemptor?
The 2x butcher cannon is just great? Vs a lot of unit profiles it ends up being better than quad las contetmptor. It can regain wounds from getting kills. True no 6+ FNP since it will primarily be killing infantry units with t4 it will probably get more value out of the 5+ on kill for heals. It just has the best all arounder weapon which is what you want for your heavy hitters. The relic contemptor mortis does have 12 wounds though which is pretty fantastic. It does cost slightly more though with quad las. Again I said "probably" as in an all arounder it's better IMO. Just an opinion and not a very important one. Just - I think we can agree these dreads loyalist and choas are OP compared to the codex units.
It gets wounds back on kills in melee. Not any kills. And it cannot be healed otherwise.
So, for 10 points cheaper, you lose...
1 Point of Strength on the guns (which matters-S8 down to S7 is a big deal) Always having 4 attacks in melee (basically irrelevant, given that they're S7 AP0 D1 attacks) -2 Leadership (non-stacking) if you kill something 5+ per model killed in melee to regain a lost wound 4++ in Melee
And you gain...
2 wounds A 6+ FNP 12" range Always having 9" move 2+ Armor The ability to be healed by outside sources The much better ranged SM support
I will agree, S8 is an important breakpoint. But does that justify an extra 16 points and all that?
Hell, in a one-on-one shootout between the two, giving the Hellforged T1 (which is not as likely, given the Relic's superior range)...
8 shots 40/6 or 20/3 hits 40/9 wounds 40/27 failed saves 80/27 damage 400/162 or 200/81 damage 2.47 damage
8 shots 40/6 or 20/3 hits 20/6 or 10/3 wounds 10/6 or 5/3 failed saves 10/3 damage 3.33 damage
The Relic does MORE DAMAGE to a Hellforged than the Hellforged does to the Relic. It takes only three turns of the Relic firing (at full BS, admittedly) to kill a Hellforged, whereas it takes five for the Hellforged to kill a Relic.
Add in strats (such as Duty Eternal or Wisdom of the Ancients as compared to... Basically nothing from CSM) or support (Captain/CM and Lieutenant, as compared to a Lord for the CSM) and it gets worse.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/09/03 21:16:27
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2020/09/03 21:00:15
Subject: Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
JNAProductions wrote: It gets wounds back on kills in melee. Not any kills. And it cannot be healed otherwise.
So, for 16 points cheaper, you lose...
1 Point of Strength on the guns (which matters-S8 down to S7 is a big deal)
Always having 4 attacks in melee (basically irrelevant, given that they're S7 AP0 D1 attacks)
-2 Leadership (non-stacking) if you kill something
5+ per model killed in melee to regain a lost wound
And you gain...
2 wounds
A 6+ FNP 12" range
Always having 9" move
2+ Armor
4++ all the time, instead of only in melee
The ability to be healed by outside sources
The much better ranged SM support
I will agree, S8 is an important breakpoint. But does that justify an extra 16 points and all that?
Hell, in a one-on-one shootout between the two, giving the Hellforged T1 (which is not as likely, given the Relic's superior range)...
8 shots
40/6 or 20/3 hits
40/9 wounds
40/27 failed saves
80/27 damage
400/162 or 200/81 damage
2.47 damage
8 shots
40/6 or 20/3 hits
20/6 or 10/3 wounds
10/6 or 5/3 failed saves
10/3 damage
3.33 damage
The Relic does MORE DAMAGE to a Hellforged than the Hellforged does to the Relic. It takes only three turns of the Relic firing (at full BS, admittedly) to kill a Hellforged, whereas it takes five for the Hellforged to kill a Relic.
Add in strats (such as Transhuman or Wisdom of the Ancients as compared to... Basically nothing from CSM) or support (Captain/CM and Lieutenant, as compared to a Lord for the CSM) and it gets worse.
A few things here:
1) The relic contemptor is 10 pts cheaper with the dual twin autocannons (which is the loadout I assume you are referring to) not 16 pts cheaper.
2) The relic contemptor does not get a 4++ all the time.
3) SM vechiles can't use transhuman. You are probably thinking of duty eternal.
Also your math is off my shows 2.96 wounds for the hellforged. (8*(5/6)*(2/3)*(1/3)*2)=2.96
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/03 21:19:41
2020/09/03 21:16:17
Subject: Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
Also I would agree with Xenomancer on the butcher cannon. +1 Str and the LD penalty is better than 5pts and 12" range. With everyone I know switching to the smaller boards I think any additional range beyond 36" is overkill at this point.
2020/09/04 04:47:25
Subject: Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
Or, alternately, all of their units are a tax. I love the "A little of everything" lists. Even with Min Size units SM have a hard to impossible time taking a little of everything. 20-30 (4x5 or 3x10 depending on edition - This edition might be 4x5 or more as I'm not sure 20 ObSec models is enough while last edition I was doing 3x10 - Intercessors, Infiltrators, Sniper Scouts) troops of two or more different kinds, some jump dudes, some close combat, some light to medium vehicles, some medium to a heavy vehicle, some long range zap, a little beatstick, a little psychic, etc. I even like that I can't fit it all in one list, and that I can fit it in a hundred different lists in a hundred different ways. But in some ways the base price of SM is its own tax, you have to skimp somewhere.
My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings.
2020/09/04 08:18:37
Subject: Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
2020/09/04 09:05:14
Subject: Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
Or, alternately, all of their units are a tax. I love the "A little of everything" lists. Even with Min Size units SM have a hard to impossible time taking a little of everything. 20-30 (4x5 or 3x10 depending on edition - This edition might be 4x5 or more as I'm not sure 20 ObSec models is enough while last edition I was doing 3x10 - Intercessors, Infiltrators, Sniper Scouts) troops of two or more different kinds, some jump dudes, some close combat, some light to medium vehicles, some medium to a heavy vehicle, some long range zap, a little beatstick, a little psychic, etc. I even like that I can't fit it all in one list, and that I can fit it in a hundred different lists in a hundred different ways. But in some ways the base price of SM is its own tax, you have to skimp somewhere.
You can talk about tax Units when you have Units that are actually a liability that you are forced to field , Like f.e. r&h troop infantry.
Then you can talk about tax Units and before that , no sorry.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/04 09:05:36
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/09/04 09:30:56
Subject: Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
Xeno, the meltas are in the close combat arms, the relic has the exact same thing. And 
