Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Well that looks like the sheet is giving the multimelta only one shot.

Maybe they're going to give it a slightly different name.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Well that looks like the sheet is giving the multimelta only one shot.

Maybe they're going to give it a slightly different name.

Or the sheet is wrong, like some of the others alpear to have been.

Silly game anyways. I'm waiting to see the codex.

The Redeemer also has weapons 1-4 and then 6.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The Redeemer also has weapons 1-4 and then 6.

lol, I totally missed that.

Yeah not exactly top notch material here.

Is it me or does it gets 6 attacks ?

 Argive wrote:
Is it me or does it gets 6 attacks ?

TBF, they had 6 attacks in the first bracket in the 8.0 version of the 'dex - can't speak for 8.5, though.

I think the difference is D3 attacks rather than 1 at the lowest bracket.

Still not T9 though...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The Redeemer also has weapons 1-4 and then 6.

Probably so they can use the same numbered picture sheet. 1-6 but one variant doesn't use 5 and one doesn't use 6. Not sure if it'd call it elegant design, but GW really wants to use these abbreviated style of datasheet it seems.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The Redeemer also has weapons 1-4 and then 6.

Looking what we can see of the layout, though, that actually makes sense.

Items 1-4 are the weapons shared between the Crusader and the Redeemer. 5 looks like the Hurricane Bolters for the Crusader, while 6 seems to be the *checks book* Flamestorm Cannon for the Redeemer.

Based on the stat lines, it looks like:
1 - Hunter-killer missile
2 - Multi-melta (old profile)
3 - Twin assault cannon
4 - Storm bolter
5 - Hurricane bolters
6 - Flamestorm cannon (with a range boost to 12")

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think the difference is D3 attacks rather than 1 at the lowest bracket.

Still not T9 though...

No, it isn't. Gw isn't doing anything to help vehicles against all these buffed anti-tank weapons they're giving out. It's not looking good for anything that isn't at least T8 with a 5++.

 Xenomancers wrote:


So I can't buy a supplement from a games workshop store? Look I am not anti forge world - it will always be viewed with a different lens though because it is balanced differently.

Its also always going to be considered a supplement, not a base game requirement. You can play with a BRB and a Codex. The Summer Campaign books are also a supplement, not part of the base game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Racerguy180 wrote:


I'm sick of people claiming FW isnt part of the game,

Isn't part of the CORE game. The BASE game. Vigilus A-Something, or the Something Not Very Good of Baal isn't part of the Core Game either. That distinction is getting lost.

You can also play with the free online rules and the unit stats included in the box for each kit. Thus the BRB and codexes wouldn't be part of the "core game" if you're going to go down that line of thinking.

Racerguy180 wrote:
basic would mean; no codex or supplements and index only(which FW amazingly have). Warlord traits only from BRB, generic strats etc...


how would you define basic?

The BRB, your codex. I'd probably include the chapter/subfaction specific personalization supplements because they're really just an appendix to the main codex designed to get more sales for GW - but I wouldn't argue too hard with someone who didn't. I wouldn't call Forgeworld, Campaign Books, Cities of Death, Planetstrikefall, Bastions of Bloodbaths, or whatever other expansion packs they put out over an Edition Life Cycle part of the Base Game


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
You can also play with the free online rules and the unit stats included in the box for each kit. Thus the BRB and codexes wouldn't be part of the "core game" if you're going to go down that line of thinking.

Nope, Edge of Silence refers you to Codex Space Marines for details on abilities.

Breton wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:
basic would mean; no codex or supplements and index only(which FW amazingly have). Warlord traits only from BRB, generic strats etc...


how would you define basic?

The BRB, your codex. I'd probably include the chapter/subfaction specific personalization supplements because they're really just an appendix to the main codex designed to get more sales for GW - but I wouldn't argue too hard with someone who didn't. I wouldn't call Forgeworld, Campaign Books, Cities of Death, Planetstrikefall, Bastions of Bloodbaths, or whatever other expansion packs they put out over an Edition Life Cycle part of the Base Game


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
You can also play with the free online rules and the unit stats included in the box for each kit. Thus the BRB and codexes wouldn't be part of the "core game" if you're going to go down that line of thinking.

Nope, Edge of Silence refers you to Codex Space Marines for details on abilities.

Sorry, you don't need Edge of Silence to play the "core game", thus, it's supplementary material.

And letting loyalists use the supplements but denying Forge World to csm? You're bias is showing.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

You can also play with the free online rules and the unit stats included in the box for each kit. Thus the BRB and codexes wouldn't be part of the "core game" if you're going to go down that line of thinking.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Sorry, you don't need Edge of Silence to play the "core game", thus, it's supplementary material.

Edge of Silence is the name of the booklet that comes with the Indomitus Starter kits.

All the datasheets that come with boxes also tell you refer to the codex.

Breton wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

You can also play with the free online rules and the unit stats included in the box for each kit. Thus the BRB and codexes wouldn't be part of the "core game" if you're going to go down that line of thinking.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Sorry, you don't need Edge of Silence to play the "core game", thus, it's supplementary material.

Edge of Silence is the name of the booklet that comes with the Indomitus Starter kits.

And it contains the basic rules for the units right? You don't need special rules and abilities to play the "core game". That's why the online rules don't include command points and strategems. Those booklets are so new players can play without a codex. Codex rules are just as optional as Forge World rules for the "core game".

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

And it contains the basic rules for the units right? You don't need special rules and abilities to play the "core game". That's why the online rules don't include command points and strategems. Those booklets are so new players can play without a codex. Codex rules are just as optional as Forge World rules for the "core game".

I repeat "No, it points you to the codex on the little datasheet booklets".

Breton wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

And it contains the basic rules for the units right? You don't need special rules and abilities to play the "core game". That's why the online rules don't include command points and strategems. Those booklets are so new players can play without a codex. Codex rules are just as optional as Forge World rules for the "core game".

I repeat "No, it points you to the codex on the little datasheet booklets".

It contains no rules for the models? So you have to wait for the new Codex: Loyalist Scum or use the app to play Bladeguard, Eradicators, and the other stuff in it? Because obviously none of that stuff is in the current codex.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Xeno, you know what's the biggest problem in the game right now?

Space Marines. They're just all-around too good, in many different ways large and small. On the tournament scene, where everything is cutthroat and everyone optimizes as best they can, it might not be overwhelming, but casually, where you get two friends slapping down models and hoping to have a good time? That's where HUGE issues are.

Marines have tons of overlapping buffs for offense and defense, many of their units are very aggressively priced, and they're all-around too powerful relative to pretty much any other Dex.

Forgeworld is a minor issue (and one that's on GW to fix, not the playerbase) relative to the massive discrepancies present in the Marine book relative to others.

Buahahahahaha. Have you actually looked at tournament results? In, like, last 4 years? Because all minmaxed SM lists share one element - broken FW garbage. Leviathans, contemptors, and deredeos (admittedly the last one less now that the first two became even more broken). Saw the first SM list that won tournament in 9th edition? It had Sisters as troops, ZERO actual SM units, and spammed as many las contemptors as possible. I wonder why, if SM are so OP?

Let's assume your assertion, that SM are a big problem, is somehow true. What would you call units that make tournament players say "the whole SM codex is meh compared to this, let's spam these instead"? It takes incredible mental gymnastic to call garbage that makes Codex: SM look weaker than conscripts ""minor"" issue after calling SM "huge" one - because it's impossible to reconcile these two statements, no matter how you try.

And you're completely wrong about SM, because as Goonhammer shown, the SM lists that didn't spam FW crap ended up with 30 to 40% winrates at 9th edition tournaments, while these that did got 60+%. Gee, it sure shows that FW is not a problem while SM are

And that is also why people hate playing FW, despite equally impressive mental gymnastic defending FW above (you guys don't like spamming leviathans, by any chance?) - because it doesn't matter half of FW units are so bad they are not worth taking. What matters is that FW stuff that is worth taking is so broken almost nothing in the game can compete with it. But hey, sure, tell us how Reivers and Infiltrators are the problem while leviathans and co are totes balanced

 Billagio wrote:
Yeah when was the last time you saw someone bring a FW unit in a competitive game that wasnt a Telemon/Levi/Relic Contemptor/Mortis (notice how theyre all Imperial?)

Yeeeah, because outside of Telemon, that list is totally not 100% spammed by Chaos lists too. Oh wait! They are!

As posters above noted, almost all factions in the game have at least one very good, if not completely broken FW unit, and one that don't are rare exception - but hey, let's complain about SM instead, because it's not like tournament players skip all GW SM/Custodes units to spam FW ones (Oh wait! They do!). Really, at this point, if someone claims FW is not a problem, SM are a problem, and xenos are weak (because it's not like 2 out of 3 top factions in tournaments right now are xenos... oh wait... and third is not SM either) then it's almost 100% sure sign the whole post can be discarded without reading because nothing in it is in any way close to actual reality and is just excuse to bash nonexistent strawmarines.

 Irbis wrote:

Buahahahahaha. Have you actually looked at tournament results? In, like, last 4 years? Because all minmaxed SM lists share one element - broken FW garbage. Leviathans, contemptors, and deredeos (admittedly the last one less now that the first two became even more broken). Saw the first SM list that won tournament in 9th edition? It had Sisters as troops, ZERO actual SM units, and spammed as many las contemptors as possible. I wonder why, if SM are so OP?

Let's assume your assertion, that SM are a big problem, is somehow true. What would you call units that make tournament players say "the whole SM codex is meh compared to this, let's spam these instead"? It takes incredible mental gymnastic to call garbage that makes Codex: SM look weaker than conscripts ""minor"" issue after calling SM "huge" one - because it's impossible to reconcile these two statements, no matter how you try.

And you're completely wrong about SM, because as Goonhammer shown, the SM lists that didn't spam FW crap ended up with 30 to 40% winrates at 9th edition tournaments, while these that did got 60+%. Gee, it sure shows that FW is not a problem while SM are

And that is also why people hate playing FW, despite equally impressive mental gymnastic defending FW above (you guys don't like spamming leviathans, by any chance?) - because it doesn't matter half of FW units are so bad they are not worth taking. What matters is that FW stuff that is worth taking is so broken almost nothing in the game can compete with it. But hey, sure, tell us how Reivers and Infiltrators are the problem while leviathans and co are totes balanced

Good job, you named the three models that FW produces that have been already called out as being the only problematic models they produce.
Now check out the number of models they produce for 40k that aren't problematic.
Then realise that the only reason theyre problematic is that theyre undercosted and guess who assigns the pts to them ? GW.

Are the HellBlade/Kharibdys/Cerberus tank destroyer/sokar pattern stormbird/fireraptor/stormeagle/blood slaughterer/greater blight drone/rapier batteries/mastodon/fellblade/nighteing/cobra/tantalus/warp hunter/ etc OP?

Yes the dreads are problematic, theres no question there, but were not only talking about the dreads when we say "FW"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Irbis wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Yeah when was the last time you saw someone bring a FW unit in a competitive game that wasnt a Telemon/Levi/Relic Contemptor/Mortis (notice how theyre all Imperial?)

Yeeeah, because outside of Telemon, that list is totally not 100% spammed by Chaos lists too. Oh wait! They are!

As posters above noted, almost all factions in the game have at least one very good, if not completely broken FW unit, and one that don't are rare exception - but hey, let's complain about SM instead, because it's not like tournament players skip all GW SM/Custodes units to spam FW ones (Oh wait! They do!). Really, at this point, if someone claims FW is not a problem, SM are a problem, and xenos are weak (because it's not like 2 out of 3 top factions in tournaments right now are xenos... oh wait... and third is not SM either) then it's almost 100% sure sign the whole post can be discarded without reading because nothing in it is in any way close to actual reality and is just excuse to bash nonexistent strawmarines.

Chaos doesnt spam dreads anymore....

Tell me what very good model Harlequins/Necrons/Orks/Admech/Sisters of battle/Tyranids/genestealer cult/Demons/Imperial guard has?

 Insectum7 wrote:
Well that looks like the sheet is giving the multimelta only one shot.

At least they're consistently inconsistent

 Irbis wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Yeah when was the last time you saw someone bring a FW unit in a competitive game that wasnt a Telemon/Levi/Relic Contemptor/Mortis (notice how theyre all Imperial?)

Yeeeah, because outside of Telemon, that list is totally not 100% spammed by Chaos lists too. Oh wait! They are!

As posters above noted, almost all factions in the game have at least one very good, if not completely broken FW unit, and one that don't are rare exception - but hey, let's complain about SM instead, because it's not like tournament players skip all GW SM/Custodes units to spam FW ones (Oh wait! They do!). Really, at this point, if someone claims FW is not a problem, SM are a problem, and xenos are weak (because it's not like 2 out of 3 top factions in tournaments right now are xenos... oh wait... and third is not SM either) then it's almost 100% sure sign the whole post can be discarded without reading because nothing in it is in any way close to actual reality and is just excuse to bash nonexistent strawmarines.

Wait, chaos gets Telemons, Relic Contemptors, and Mortis Contemptors now? When did that happen?

Ok, jokes aside, every unit you've complained about is a loyalist marines unit. The Relic Contemptor got a massive buff because whoever did the points in CA2020 forgot that it has a better save, 2 more wounds, and a 6+++ that none of the other variants have. It also has loyalist rules from the loyalist codex and supplements. Chaos doesn't have doctrines, or super doctrines, or pages on top of pages of strategems and psychic powers that, once again, gw forgot to consider fw units for when they were writing them. Thus we get crazy stuff like unkillable Iron Hands leviathans.

The Hellforged Contemptor is the same price as the Relic Contemptor, but with 2 less wounds, a 3+ save vs the Relic's 2+, and no 6+++. The Hellforged Leviathan is the same base price as the loyalist leviathan but has a 5++ against shooting while the Relic leviathan has a 4++, and butcher cannons got a massive nerf in CA2020 while stormcannon arrays stayed the same price, so the best loadout is now WAY more expensive for the Hellforged Leviathan than for the relic. Hellforged Daredeos took the same hit from the butcher cannon nerf as well. And csm don't have the same number of strong codex units to make up for the loss as loyalists.

The fact that you can only think of three fw units that are "broken" among dozens and that they are all loyalist marines units tells us exactly where the problem lies, and it isn't fw. Could you tell me what csm fw units you consider broken besides dreadnoughts? Is it my 880 PPM Hellforged Fellblade? The 680 PPM Cerberus? Dreadclaws, Hellblades, maybe my Sicaran that's currently hiding in fear of Eradicators and 2 shot multi-meltas? I know, it's the Hellforged Achilles, that Soulburner Bombard is so much better than the loyalist's quad launcher, why, gw should probably make it twice the price as the loyalist gun. Oh wait, they did.

And as far as "spamming" fw dreads, I have ONE Leviathan, ONE Daredeo, and TWO (GASP! Does that make me a WAAC player?) Contemptors. If that's spamming then cue the Monty Python references.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Wait, chaos gets Telemons, Relic Contemptors, and Mortis Contemptors now? When did that happen?

Ok, jokes aside, every unit you've complained about is a loyalist marines unit. The Relic Contemptor got a massive buff because whoever did the points in CA2020 forgot that it has a better save, 2 more wounds, and a 6+++ that none of the other variants have. It also has loyalist rules from the loyalist codex and supplements. Chaos doesn't have doctrines, or super doctrines, or pages on top of pages of strategems and psychic powers that, once again, gw forgot to consider fw units for when they were writing them. Thus we get crazy stuff like unkillable Iron Hands leviathans.

The Hellforged Contemptor is the same price as the Relic Contemptor, but with 2 less wounds, a 3+ save vs the Relic's 2+, and no 6+++. The Hellforged Leviathan is the same base price as the loyalist leviathan but has a 5++ against shooting while the Relic leviathan has a 4++, and butcher cannons got a massive nerf in CA2020 while stormcannon arrays stayed the same price, so the best loadout is now WAY more expensive for the Hellforged Leviathan than for the relic. Hellforged Daredeos took the same hit from the butcher cannon nerf as well. And csm don't have the same number of strong codex units to make up for the loss as loyalists.

The fact that you can only think of three fw units that are "broken" among dozens and that they are all loyalist marines units tells us exactly where the problem lies, and it isn't fw. Could you tell me what csm fw units you consider broken besides dreadnoughts? Is it my 880 PPM Hellforged Fellblade? The 680 PPM Cerberus? Dreadclaws, Hellblades, maybe my Sicaran that's currently hiding in fear of Eradicators and 2 shot multi-meltas? I know, it's the Hellforged Achilles, that Soulburner Bombard is so much better than the loyalist's quad launcher, why, gw should probably make it twice the price as the loyalist gun. Oh wait, they did.

And as far as "spamming" fw dreads, I have ONE Leviathan, ONE Daredeo, and TWO (GASP! Does that make me a WAAC player?) Contemptors. If that's spamming then cue the Monty Python references.

and to be fair, the Night lords levi and contemptor look so cool and are one of the few things that look like night lords out of the box so its hard not to include them just for the looks.
And even then, a Hellforge leviathan with dual claws is still overpriced.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Wait, chaos gets Telemons, Relic Contemptors, and Mortis Contemptors now? When did that happen?

Ok, jokes aside, every unit you've complained about is a loyalist marines unit. The Relic Contemptor got a massive buff because whoever did the points in CA2020 forgot that it has a better save, 2 more wounds, and a 6+++ that none of the other variants have. It also has loyalist rules from the loyalist codex and supplements. Chaos doesn't have doctrines, or super doctrines, or pages on top of pages of strategems and psychic powers that, once again, gw forgot to consider fw units for when they were writing them. Thus we get crazy stuff like unkillable Iron Hands leviathans.

The Hellforged Contemptor is the same price as the Relic Contemptor, but with 2 less wounds, a 3+ save vs the Relic's 2+, and no 6+++. The Hellforged Leviathan is the same base price as the loyalist leviathan but has a 5++ against shooting while the Relic leviathan has a 4++, and butcher cannons got a massive nerf in CA2020 while stormcannon arrays stayed the same price, so the best loadout is now WAY more expensive for the Hellforged Leviathan than for the relic. Hellforged Daredeos took the same hit from the butcher cannon nerf as well. And csm don't have the same number of strong codex units to make up for the loss as loyalists.

The fact that you can only think of three fw units that are "broken" among dozens and that they are all loyalist marines units tells us exactly where the problem lies, and it isn't fw. Could you tell me what csm fw units you consider broken besides dreadnoughts? Is it my 880 PPM Hellforged Fellblade? The 680 PPM Cerberus? Dreadclaws, Hellblades, maybe my Sicaran that's currently hiding in fear of Eradicators and 2 shot multi-meltas? I know, it's the Hellforged Achilles, that Soulburner Bombard is so much better than the loyalist's quad launcher, why, gw should probably make it twice the price as the loyalist gun. Oh wait, they did.

And as far as "spamming" fw dreads, I have ONE Leviathan, ONE Daredeo, and TWO (GASP! Does that make me a WAAC player?) Contemptors. If that's spamming then cue the Monty Python references.

and to be fair, the Night lords levi and contemptor look so cool and are one of the few things that look like night lords out of the box so its hard not to include them just for the looks.
And even then, a Hellforge leviathan with dual claws is still overpriced.

I do wonder where all these dreads were, oh wait they were all in the broken beyond reason IH supplement, but FW is the issue, not the supplement that makes basically the whole dex from allready overperforming into nonsense territory.

not to mention that the chaos versions didn't make the cut for competitive lists along time ago, yet Ibris insists that chaos spams dreads, which is nonsense, the only thing csm spammed was soup, and obliterators and sorcerers, i wonder who designed those?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Yeah when was the last time you saw someone bring a FW unit in a competitive game that wasnt a Telemon/Levi/Relic Contemptor/Mortis (notice how theyre all Imperial?)

Yeeeah, because outside of Telemon, that list is totally not 100% spammed by Chaos lists too. Oh wait! They are!

As posters above noted, almost all factions in the game have at least one very good, if not completely broken FW unit, and one that don't are rare exception - but hey, let's complain about SM instead, because it's not like tournament players skip all GW SM/Custodes units to spam FW ones (Oh wait! They do!). Really, at this point, if someone claims FW is not a problem, SM are a problem, and xenos are weak (because it's not like 2 out of 3 top factions in tournaments right now are xenos... oh wait... and third is not SM either) then it's almost 100% sure sign the whole post can be discarded without reading because nothing in it is in any way close to actual reality and is just excuse to bash nonexistent strawmarines.

Wait, chaos gets Telemons, Relic Contemptors, and Mortis Contemptors now? When did that happen?

Ok, jokes aside, every unit you've complained about is a loyalist marines unit. The Relic Contemptor got a massive buff because whoever did the points in CA2020 forgot that it has a better save, 2 more wounds, and a 6+++ that none of the other variants have. It also has loyalist rules from the loyalist codex and supplements. Chaos doesn't have doctrines, or super doctrines, or pages on top of pages of strategems and psychic powers that, once again, gw forgot to consider fw units for when they were writing them. Thus we get crazy stuff like unkillable Iron Hands leviathans.

The Hellforged Contemptor is the same price as the Relic Contemptor, but with 2 less wounds, a 3+ save vs the Relic's 2+, and no 6+++. The Hellforged Leviathan is the same base price as the loyalist leviathan but has a 5++ against shooting while the Relic leviathan has a 4++, and butcher cannons got a massive nerf in CA2020 while stormcannon arrays stayed the same price, so the best loadout is now WAY more expensive for the Hellforged Leviathan than for the relic. Hellforged Daredeos took the same hit from the butcher cannon nerf as well. And csm don't have the same number of strong codex units to make up for the loss as loyalists.

The fact that you can only think of three fw units that are "broken" among dozens and that they are all loyalist marines units tells us exactly where the problem lies, and it isn't fw. Could you tell me what csm fw units you consider broken besides dreadnoughts? Is it my 880 PPM Hellforged Fellblade? The 680 PPM Cerberus? Dreadclaws, Hellblades, maybe my Sicaran that's currently hiding in fear of Eradicators and 2 shot multi-meltas? I know, it's the Hellforged Achilles, that Soulburner Bombard is so much better than the loyalist's quad launcher, why, gw should probably make it twice the price as the loyalist gun. Oh wait, they did.

And as far as "spamming" fw dreads, I have ONE Leviathan, ONE Daredeo, and TWO (GASP! Does that make me a WAAC player?) Contemptors. If that's spamming then cue the Monty Python references.

The units are actually very different. The choas Levi has more weapons and different and unique weapons...Plus life it regains wounds in melee. It is a melee oriented unit. Not saying which is better but they have different battlefeild rolls. The choas has better melee ability and the loyalist has better shooting ability. When it comes to contemptors though the choas version is probably better than the loyalist IMO (both are OP though). So please stop crying about it. You are just proving our point that FW has bogus balance. It makes our standard dreads in the codex obsolete. GW balance also bad. FW balance is notoriously bad and it's not a surprise why. They want to sell models. More than that too...they want to sell the models they want to sell. They can only produce so much resine per day and it's a lot easier to just mass produce a bunch of space marine dreads than it is to produce units for every army. The units they want to move have better rules...no doubt about it.

 Xenomancers wrote:

The units are actually very different. The choas Levi has more weapons and different and unique weapons...Plus life it regains wounds in melee. It is a melee oriented unit. Not saying which is better but they have different battlefeild rolls. The choas has better melee ability and the loyalist has better shooting ability. When it comes to contemptors though the choas version is probably better than the loyalist IMO (both are OP though). So please stop crying about it. You are just proving our point that FW has bogus balance. It makes our standard dreads in the codex obsolete. GW balance also bad. FW balance is notoriously bad and it's not a surprise why. They want to sell models. More than that too...they want to sell the models they want to sell. They can only produce so much resine per day and it's a lot easier to just mass produce a bunch of space marine dreads than it is to produce units for every army. The units they want to move have better rules...no doubt about it.

Both versions of the levi has exactly the same amout of options. The chaos levi can't regain life any other way than by killing stuff in melee and then rolling a 5+, the relic can be healed by any techmarine. Agreed that the chaos levi is more melee oriented, to get the equivalent invuln to its relic counterpart, it needs to be in melee.

How is the hellforged contemptor better than the loyalist ones? The loyalist one has a 6+++ and in-built reroll 1's if going full-melee and the hellforged one get a 4++ in melee. So again the relic is better than the hellforged just by virtue of being more durable if he doesnt spend the whole game locked in combat.

This whole FW conversation started because someone said they didnt consider FW as being part of the base game. It then devolved into the usual "Muh FW OP" and were just proving how only a few models are too strong and only because of the codexes theyre in (loyalist dreads).

Should boxdreads be played? absolutely, every model should be played.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Wait, chaos gets Telemons, Relic Contemptors, and Mortis Contemptors now? When did that happen?

Ok, jokes aside, every unit you've complained about is a loyalist marines unit. The Relic Contemptor got a massive buff because whoever did the points in CA2020 forgot that it has a better save, 2 more wounds, and a 6+++ that none of the other variants have. It also has loyalist rules from the loyalist codex and supplements. Chaos doesn't have doctrines, or super doctrines, or pages on top of pages of strategems and psychic powers that, once again, gw forgot to consider fw units for when they were writing them. Thus we get crazy stuff like unkillable Iron Hands leviathans.

The Hellforged Contemptor is the same price as the Relic Contemptor, but with 2 less wounds, a 3+ save vs the Relic's 2+, and no 6+++. The Hellforged Leviathan is the same base price as the loyalist leviathan but has a 5++ against shooting while the Relic leviathan has a 4++, and butcher cannons got a massive nerf in CA2020 while stormcannon arrays stayed the same price, so the best loadout is now WAY more expensive for the Hellforged Leviathan than for the relic. Hellforged Daredeos took the same hit from the butcher cannon nerf as well. And csm don't have the same number of strong codex units to make up for the loss as loyalists.

The fact that you can only think of three fw units that are "broken" among dozens and that they are all loyalist marines units tells us exactly where the problem lies, and it isn't fw. Could you tell me what csm fw units you consider broken besides dreadnoughts? Is it my 880 PPM Hellforged Fellblade? The 680 PPM Cerberus? Dreadclaws, Hellblades, maybe my Sicaran that's currently hiding in fear of Eradicators and 2 shot multi-meltas? I know, it's the Hellforged Achilles, that Soulburner Bombard is so much better than the loyalist's quad launcher, why, gw should probably make it twice the price as the loyalist gun. Oh wait, they did.

And as far as "spamming" fw dreads, I have ONE Leviathan, ONE Daredeo, and TWO (GASP! Does that make me a WAAC player?) Contemptors. If that's spamming then cue the Monty Python references.

and to be fair, the Night lords levi and contemptor look so cool and are one of the few things that look like night lords out of the box so its hard not to include them just for the looks.
And even then, a Hellforge leviathan with dual claws is still overpriced.

I do wonder where all these dreads were, oh wait they were all in the broken beyond reason IH supplement, but FW is the issue, not the supplement that makes basically the whole dex from allready overperforming into nonsense territory.

not to mention that the chaos versions didn't make the cut for competitive lists along time ago, yet Ibris insists that chaos spams dreads, which is nonsense, the only thing csm spammed was soup, and obliterators and sorcerers, i wonder who designed those?

In terms of what can be brought to the table in competitive choas soup. Making the cut has is probably harder than in any other army. Usually choas is dumping all its points into mega shooty stars that can destroy half your army in a single shooting phase and characters to spam smite from TS. That doesn't mean a choas contemptor isn't OP. It just doesn't fit into the combo...which is absolutely OP.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Yeah when was the last time you saw someone bring a FW unit in a competitive game that wasnt a Telemon/Levi/Relic Contemptor/Mortis (notice how theyre all Imperial?)

Yeeeah, because outside of Telemon, that list is totally not 100% spammed by Chaos lists too. Oh wait! They are!

As posters above noted, almost all factions in the game have at least one very good, if not completely broken FW unit, and one that don't are rare exception - but hey, let's complain about SM instead, because it's not like tournament players skip all GW SM/Custodes units to spam FW ones (Oh wait! They do!). Really, at this point, if someone claims FW is not a problem, SM are a problem, and xenos are weak (because it's not like 2 out of 3 top factions in tournaments right now are xenos... oh wait... and third is not SM either) then it's almost 100% sure sign the whole post can be discarded without reading because nothing in it is in any way close to actual reality and is just excuse to bash nonexistent strawmarines.

Wait, chaos gets Telemons, Relic Contemptors, and Mortis Contemptors now? When did that happen?

Ok, jokes aside, every unit you've complained about is a loyalist marines unit. The Relic Contemptor got a massive buff because whoever did the points in CA2020 forgot that it has a better save, 2 more wounds, and a 6+++ that none of the other variants have. It also has loyalist rules from the loyalist codex and supplements. Chaos doesn't have doctrines, or super doctrines, or pages on top of pages of strategems and psychic powers that, once again, gw forgot to consider fw units for when they were writing them. Thus we get crazy stuff like unkillable Iron Hands leviathans.

The Hellforged Contemptor is the same price as the Relic Contemptor, but with 2 less wounds, a 3+ save vs the Relic's 2+, and no 6+++. The Hellforged Leviathan is the same base price as the loyalist leviathan but has a 5++ against shooting while the Relic leviathan has a 4++, and butcher cannons got a massive nerf in CA2020 while stormcannon arrays stayed the same price, so the best loadout is now WAY more expensive for the Hellforged Leviathan than for the relic. Hellforged Daredeos took the same hit from the butcher cannon nerf as well. And csm don't have the same number of strong codex units to make up for the loss as loyalists.

The fact that you can only think of three fw units that are "broken" among dozens and that they are all loyalist marines units tells us exactly where the problem lies, and it isn't fw. Could you tell me what csm fw units you consider broken besides dreadnoughts? Is it my 880 PPM Hellforged Fellblade? The 680 PPM Cerberus? Dreadclaws, Hellblades, maybe my Sicaran that's currently hiding in fear of Eradicators and 2 shot multi-meltas? I know, it's the Hellforged Achilles, that Soulburner Bombard is so much better than the loyalist's quad launcher, why, gw should probably make it twice the price as the loyalist gun. Oh wait, they did.

And as far as "spamming" fw dreads, I have ONE Leviathan, ONE Daredeo, and TWO (GASP! Does that make me a WAAC player?) Contemptors. If that's spamming then cue the Monty Python references.

The units are actually very different. The choas Levi has more weapons and different and unique weapons...Plus life it regains wounds in melee. It is a melee oriented unit. Not saying which is better but they have different battlefeild rolls. The choas has better melee ability and the loyalist has better shooting ability. When it comes to contemptors though the choas version is probably better than the loyalist IMO (both are OP though). So please stop crying about it. You are just proving our point that FW has bogus balance. It makes our standard dreads in the codex obsolete. GW balance also bad. FW balance is notoriously bad and it's not a surprise why. They want to sell models. More than that too...they want to sell the models they want to sell. They can only produce so much resine per day and it's a lot easier to just mass produce a bunch of space marine dreads than it is to produce units for every army. The units they want to move have better rules...no doubt about it.

Ok, exactly how is the Hellforged Contemptor better than the relic? And for the billionth time gw has been doing all the balancing for fw since CA2018. Please, commence "crying" about Forge World.

Oh, and your wrong, as usual, about Leviathans. The Hellforged doesn't have more weapons. They both have two arm weapons and two torso weapons. The relic has the option to take HK missiles, the Hellforged has no similar option, so you have it backwards.

 Xenomancers wrote:

In terms of what can be brought to the table in competitive choas soup. Making the cut has is probably harder than in any other army. Usually choas is dumping all its points into mega shooty stars that can destroy half your army in a single shooting phase and characters to spam smite from TS. That doesn't mean a choas contemptor isn't OP. It just doesn't fit into the combo...which is absolutely OP.

Chaos hasnt been like that since before covid.

Thousand sons stopped being a smite battery with their PA.

The chaos soup list youre talking about was nerfed with CA 2019.

and please tell me what "shooty stars" chaos plays that requires all its points.