Accolade wrote: Oh, I really like this one. I think it would make for a better Imagifier (I’m not too keen on the other one carrying an entire statue).
The engraving on the banner is particularly nice.
Looks flat to me. I don't see any relief on it. I reckon they expect us to freehand it.
Hard to tell from the main image alone, but there's visible edge highlights around the lettering in the smaller shot focused on the banner, so I'd pretty confidently say it's sculpted detail.
That's a great model, but wow that paintjob on this is sloppy.
Multiple spots on the banner need touching up, including the skeletons face which looks super flat. The grey streaks on the robes chest piece aren't fit to be called highlights and while the bare head itself isn't great looking, I think that it really suffers from a less then stellar paintjob.
But it's a good sculpt and depending on how it comes on the sprue, could see a lot of good conversion potential.
Definitely making use of a head swap, but otherwise, really nice.
One thing I would really hope for however is the inclusion of a blank banner. Sculpted reliefs are great... but just once per army please. (Astra Militarum / Scions also suffer the same issue).
*A song title, by the Monks... from, liek last century or somewhen...
I'm a bit confused whether this is only a special character or whether she can be used as generic Reliquant at Arms. Unlike the Imagifier, it seems that she has remembered to bring a proper weapon, so it would be nice to have an option for this loadout for all orders.
Crimson wrote: I'm a bit confused whether this is only a special character or whether she can be used as generic Reliquant at Arms. Unlike the Imagifier, it seems that she has remembered to bring a proper weapon, so it would be nice to have an option for this loadout for all orders.
Crimson wrote: I'm a bit confused whether this is only a special character or whether she can be used as generic Reliquant at Arms. Unlike the Imagifier, it seems that she has remembered to bring a proper weapon, so it would be nice to have an option for this loadout for all orders.
Pronatus is a non-militant order, like hospitaller.
MinMax wrote: She isn't a special character. She's a named non-special character - in the same vein as "Nauseous Rotbone, the Plague Surgeon".
You sure? I know GW loves randomly naming generic HQ slots. But unlike Rotbone, she seems to actually have some lore attached with her. Also, her sword is called the "Blade of Vigil", which sounds more like what a named character has, and not just a random sword
Dunno, to me the fact that they keep focusing on telling her name and also the name of the relic itself - the Auto-Tapestry of Emperor's Judgment...doesn't sound like a name for a generic equipment. Actually, they also specify it's a very special relic, so definitely not a generic equipment.
So totally unique/named character, to me. Doesn't mean we won't have generic "Reliquants at Arms" that will be entirely a different miniature.
Sarouan wrote: Dunno, to me the fact that they keep focusing on telling her name and also the name of the relic itself - the Auto-Tapestry of Emperor's Judgment...doesn't sound like a name for a generic equipment. Actually, they also specify it's a very special relic, so definitely not a generic equipment.
So totally unique/named character, to me. Doesn't mean we won't have generic "Reliquants at Arms" that will be entirely a different miniature.
Just like Lieutenant Tolmeron with the Sword of Sanguinius was unique character?
Though dunno, it would make sooo little effort to also have Junith as generic Canoness on grav pulpit version and they didn't for whatever reason, unlike AoS team that often makes stuff that I'd never guess they would (like Fox Spirit thing) into generic characters...
I really don't know that Sisters needed yet another buffing character. They even already had one carrying a banner, so it's not even new in its own specific niche.
GW sure does love a new $35+ a pop single model, though.
yukishiro1 wrote: I really don't know that Sisters needed yet another buffing character. They even already had one carrying a banner, so it's not even new in its own specific niche.
Remember, we learnt a couple of pages back that replicating existing unit concepts/roles is fine because NEW MODELS!
yukishiro1 wrote: I really don't know that Sisters needed yet another buffing character. They even already had one carrying a banner, so it's not even new in its own specific niche.
GW sure does love a new $35+ a pop single model, though.
Only a fraction as much as they like selling a new $50 codex though. I think they got kinda out of hand with single character regular size models over $25, I think that should be the max and most should fall around $20.
If it's a generic character, fantastic! I'm sure it'll have rules that will help buff ranged characters (as the article seems to imply) even more than normal. You've got Cannoness for re-roll 1's to hit, Palatine for re-roll 1's to wound, the Imagifier for ignoring -1 AP, the Simulacrum for using an extra miracle dice, the Dialogus for manipulating that miracle dice, the Hospitaller for bringing back slain models, the Triumph of St Katherine for all of the myriad buffs that gives, Celestine for better invul saves...
Then you've got the Dogmata for probably leadership buffs and this character for... if I had to guess... shooting again when they die.
Then you stick them all into the Battle Sanctum and a single unit of Heavy Bolter Retributors or something and then wonder why your single unit costs 500 points for not a lot of effect!
If she's a named character, it looks like she'll be Order of Our Martyred Lady, which... we don't need another of. Hoping she's generic, because generic characters don't hem you into a single Order (coughpooradmechcough).
Really interested to see what else we might get. It seems there'll be even more Sisters revealed next week, which is pretty exciting. This wave is gunna be huge.
Definitely didn't need another model with some kind of standard (Imagifier, Zephyrim with pennant, Simulacrum-carriers, Triumph...). Though it's a pretty nice banner and a rather nice model overall; definitely prefer her to the Imagifier.
First new Sister I largely approve of, ignoring the fact that it has no reason to exist and the sprue would have been better spent on updating an Eldar character. (To clarify, I collect Sisters of Battle and don't own any Eldar bar a squad of Harlequins. Poor pointy-ears just deserve it a lot more.)
First new Sister I largely approve of, ignoring the fact that it has no reason to exist
All miniatures have no reason to exist.
Besides, this named sister is certainly one easy to paint without separating parts before gluing. It's nice for GW to think of us old school painters liking to paint a miniature in one piece.
Coenus Scaldingus wrote: Definitely didn't need another model with some kind of standard (Imagifier, Zephyrim with pennant, Simulacrum-carriers, Triumph...). Though it's a pretty nice banner and a rather nice model overall; definitely prefer her to the Imagifier.
First new Sister I largely approve of, ignoring the fact that it has no reason to exist and the sprue would have been better spent on updating an Eldar character. (To clarify, I collect Sisters of Battle and don't own any Eldar bar a squad of Harlequins. Poor pointy-ears just deserve it a lot more.)
Are we reaching the point of arguing that a Sister of Battle plastic model has no reason to exist because Craftworld Eldar are more of a priority?
yukishiro1 wrote: I really don't know that Sisters needed yet another buffing character. They even already had one carrying a banner, so it's not even new in its own specific niche.
GW sure does love a new $35+ a pop single model, though.
I honestly wish they'd stop. Its gotten kind of crazy for several factions. I'd much rather have 1-2 characters at most, and a bunch of units. Both on the table and buying; $50 or even $60 for 10 models is a stretch, but 1 infantry model for $35 is an automatic no.
Special characters are, as always, an 'obscenity added' NO.
Red Corsair wrote: Leave the backpack off and that is a fething Bretonian model...
I feel like they are going full flanderisation on the recent models, leaning into the french crusading knights aesthetic a little too much maybe.
We went from Bobs to full blown page boy squire awful quick.
I mean, it doesn't look much like a Bretonian model at all, but it looks JUST LIKE a Sisters model.
- She's wearing the same armor and robes as every other Sister. While the design has changed a little since the 2nd edition release, it hasn't changed that much, and she matches the standard design with no deviations at all.
- She's wearing the standard Sister's helmet, with the raised visor we've seen before.
- She's using standard Sister's style gear, including a sword and big ass banner. Sisters have been using both since 2nd edition.
- We've seen just 2 or 3 page boy style haircuts out of... dozens... of new sisters heads. most of which have featured the classic hair style. That hardly seems like a big deal.
So if the complaint is that Sisters kind of sort of draw inspiration from the same sources as Bretonians... you're 20ish years too late.
Honestly I like all of the new models really. My only nitpick is with the Palantine, and I know it's a little thing, but I think the way she is holding the rosary is a little off. I wish she was holding it by the closest end, and the rosette was at the furthest point; I think it would suggest motion better than it does now. I think it looks a tiny bit goofy as is. I will still buy it though, obviously, it's a great model despite the one small thing I don't like. I like halberds with shields just fine if they are wearing power armor.
Everything else I like just fine.
edit: Oops. I typed this all up and then I went back like 2 pages and just saw Aestred. Simple Jack indeed. I can't see anyone building that bare headed variant when she has a helmet option. I'd probably pass even if I loved it because I can't paint giant flags/banners like that no matter who is holding them, in any faction. I think they look cool, I just can't make them look good.
First post updated. This Sisters release just keeps getting bigger and bigger. And I am sure there is more to come. I really need to get my few remaining models painted to be ready for the next round of models.
yukishiro1 wrote: I really don't know that Sisters needed yet another buffing character. They even already had one carrying a banner, so it's not even new in its own specific niche.
GW sure does love a new $35+ a pop single model, though.
I honestly wish they'd stop. Its gotten kind of crazy for several factions. I'd much rather have 1-2 characters at most, and a bunch of units. Both on the table and buying; $50 or even $60 for 10 models is a stretch, but 1 infantry model for $35 is an automatic no.
Special characters are, as always, an 'obscenity added' NO.
Pure upside for GW, though. Plastic is free so that's not really an issue, but making a mold for a single infantry character is way cheaper than making a mold for 10. 1/10th the work, that you can sell for 1/2 the price, maybe even 3/4s. As long as people keep buying...
Coenus Scaldingus wrote: Definitely didn't need another model with some kind of standard (Imagifier, Zephyrim with pennant, Simulacrum-carriers, Triumph...). Though it's a pretty nice banner and a rather nice model overall; definitely prefer her to the Imagifier.
First new Sister I largely approve of, ignoring the fact that it has no reason to exist and the sprue would have been better spent on updating an Eldar character. (To clarify, I collect Sisters of Battle and don't own any Eldar bar a squad of Harlequins. Poor pointy-ears just deserve it a lot more.)
Are we reaching the point of arguing that a Sister of Battle plastic model has no reason to exist because Craftworld Eldar are more of a priority?
wow
Sure, as far as I'm concerned at least. One of those has a beautiful and nearly completely plastic range (could do with updated versions of the remaining Ecclesiarchy models and maybe an additional Troops choice, definitely don't need a new tank, walker, elite melee unit or banner bearer), the other have models that nearly predate the birth of Slaanesh and are to a large extent horrible horrible resin. Is it weird to feel the latter could use some love more than the former? I know the Sisters languished for many years, but that's no longer the case. But to not only make new models, but to make new models of which some definitely don't even add much to the range from a visual, tactical or lore point of view, well, I consider that a waste of time and resources. Though again, I do like the banner. Kind of like the halberd. Wish to erase the memory of the Nundams from my mind completely though.
If the Eldar campaign is getting too repetitive, I'd like to add I'd also prefer to instead see more Tau auxiliary races for example. Lots of room for interesting things there that would actually broaden the universe. Would be refreshing after so much power armour.
Sure, as far as I'm concerned at least. One of those has a beautiful and nearly completely plastic range (could do with updated versions of the remaining Ecclesiarchy models and maybe an additional Troops choice, definitely don't need a new tank, walker, elite melee unit or banner bearer), the other have models that nearly predate the birth of Slaanesh and are to a large extent horrible horrible resin. Is it weird to feel the latter could use some love more than the former?
As someone whose first army is Craftworlds and would love to see updated I do not mind Sisters getting their time in the sun. Their line lagged horribly behind, getting no updates for a long time while even Craftworlds got some, and do not have the same range of options as Craftworlds do.
I get being miffed at Space Marines as they have an incredibly large and updated range, but aiming it at SoB I do not get.
Sure, as far as I'm concerned at least. One of those has a beautiful and nearly completely plastic range (could do with updated versions of the remaining Ecclesiarchy models and maybe an additional Troops choice, definitely don't need a new tank, walker, elite melee unit or banner bearer), the other have models that nearly predate the birth of Slaanesh and are to a large extent horrible horrible resin. Is it weird to feel the latter could use some love more than the former?
As someone whose first army is Craftworlds and would love to see updated I do not mind Sisters getting their time in the sun. Their line lagged horribly behind, getting no updates for a long time while even Craftworlds got some, and do not have the same range of options as Craftworlds do.
I get being miffed at Space Marines as they have an incredibly large and updated range, but aiming it at SoB I do not get.
It's only in part the fact that they're getting something, it's also very much about what (and when). A complete line revamp with two large release waves should surely be enough to keep everyone entertained for some time; adding more this soon doesn't feel that valuable (compared to some other things first, then an expansion another year or 2 from now - not least because it could also mean a longer gap now between these releases and any future ones). Admittedly, purely refreshing the line while not adding new units (well, aside from the dual-build ones and Order-specific named characters I guess) might still have felt stale for the Sororitas veterans, so adding another new unit or two isn't a bad thing - but several of the choices have been rather uninspired so far; it's like giving the Genestealer Cults yet another single-model choice. Of course, my opinion is certainly coloured by the fact that I don't care much about most of the new offerings, or their implications for the lore changes.
On a more positive note, the scope of the initial release and now a fairly substantial expansion to the range do feel like GW has learned some lesson about how severely unsupported ranges might in fact be popular if they got some nice modern models, which feel like a valuable lesson that might help Eldar, Imperial Guard and others in the long run. Maybe even lead to a more AoS/WHFB-style equilibrium in terms of attention paid to different factions rather than the long-running Marine-focus, but maybe that's a bit much to wish for.
jake wrote: - She's wearing the same armor and robes as every other Sister. While the design has changed a little since the 2nd edition release, it hasn't changed that much, and she matches the standard design with no deviations at all.
You know what is really hilarious though? Dumb whining the robes copied Justicar, even though she is sixth Sister with the same robes, and three of them predate Justicar by a fair bit. Maybe complainers should actually look at range before opening mouth. Oh, and she is also tailor made response to "Dogmata can't raise her arms" idiocy
And fully agree with hair/face. New style is always appreciated, you want generic sister haircut, you can take one of the 50 standard heads. Whining about different head (on a basis of rushed paint job, no less) is insane IMO, reading some posts here you'd think she had ork head not completely normal female face...
Completely and utterly wrong. New options and sculpts are ALWAYS good. You don't like price? You can convert her from bog standard sister and a SM banner (there are like 8 similar style ones you can grab on bitz sites for like 1$), there is literally NO situation where lack of choice is a good thing in any way.
Is it weird to feel the latter could use some love more than the former?
Yes. Beyond weird in fact, Sisters still lack models and the other have mostly good looking, complete army. And that is without considering new models will be yet another excuse for Phil Kelly and co to release beyond broken, 7th edition style nonsense OP rules. If that doesn't happen for the next 2 editions, it will be too soon still
definitely don't need a new tank, walker, elite melee unit or banner bearer
And this is doubly hilarious because if you subtract these things from Eldar range, they need zero new kits, especially seeing they already have them and Sisters have glaring holes in the range. You really can't spot 1 = 0 contradiction here?
Coenus Scaldingus wrote: Definitely didn't need another model with some kind of standard (Imagifier, Zephyrim with pennant, Simulacrum-carriers, Triumph...). Though it's a pretty nice banner and a rather nice model overall; definitely prefer her to the Imagifier.
Can't say you're wrong, but on the other hand this is SoB! If anything they need MORE elaborate and ornamentative (is that a word?) models. I mean look at this thing, it only has one skull on top! And nothing is on fire!!!
Voss wrote: I honestly wish they'd stop. Its gotten kind of crazy for several factions. I'd much rather have 1-2 characters at most, and a bunch of units. Both on the table and buying; $50 or even $60 for 10 models is a stretch, but 1 infantry model for $35 is an automatic no.
Special characters are, as always, an 'obscenity added' NO.
Honestly, I just wish they'd stop for Our Martyred Lady. I'd welcome 1-2 characters for the other 5 Orders Majoris, to bring them closer to parity and to give GW a lever they can use to boost orders with underwhelming but fluffy Convictions like Ebon Flame and Sacred Rose, in particular. As it stands now, OoOML is *worse* than Ultramarines character bloat because there are literally no named characters for the other 5 orders. The only reason anything other than OML gets played is because Bloody Rose and Valorous Heart have *really* nice conviction rules. Giving them a little more fluff via characters to build fanbases around individual orders would be really nice, IMO. The 8th ed codex at least gave us a nice bone in offering up 6 more canon color schemes.
I am hoping she is a SC and a type of unit and I like the model alot, She does not appear to be Order restricted.
However I think its time other factions had their time in the sun now - we know orcs are getting some squig-loving (so to speak soon) so hoping for some non battlesuit Tau, Tau allies, Eldar Aspects (maybe some of the unseen ones)
The Codex does look likely now - ah well i have two copies of the last one and only got a few games due to COVID. Still first world problems....
Given that she's on a scenic base (not tactical rocks, but actual scenery), I'm still going with her being a named character.
We've had two named "non-named" sisters that have had fancier bases, but one was an anniversary model that's still available, and the other was a limited made to order model. Those had names, a la Rotbone, but weren't actually given any special rules.
Maces look solid. The bolters in the Sacresanct's shields are pistols, and have pistol upgrade options (plasma and hand flamer shown!), which is mind-blowing regardless of how you feel on the concept to start.
High Abbess character revealed, a High Lord of Terra on the battlefield. WTF, but it's a lovely model and a fantastic head sculpt that I will most likely steal. Cool that Sisters get a primarch/GD equivalent single character, I guess, but I'm a bit bummed that we get Junith as the Canonness Superior for OOML but no other Canoness Superiors, still.
Ditto for the apparent paired buddy for our banner bearer character we already met; that was a lousy bait-and-switch for me because when they showed it first off, I assumed it was a plastic missionary/priest kit, which would have been much more useful and exciting... unless priests are getting written out of the codex entirely, which I suppose could happen.
Ditto for the apparent paired buddy for our banner bearer character we already met; that was a lousy bait-and-switch for me because when they showed it first off, I assumed it was a plastic missionary/priest kit, which would have been much more useful and exciting... unless priests are getting written out of the codex entirely, which I suppose could happen.
I mean nothing is stopping you from using the model as a missionary or a priest.
Crimson wrote: I mean nothing is stopping you from using the model as a missionary or a priest.
Sure, but an actual kit would have meant a couple wargear options (again, assuming they still exist in the new codex) and head swaps or what have you to make lists with a couple of them have some variety.
Ah well, we'll wait for the Warhammer Community articles to know more about the updated rules.
I like our new Lord of Battle Supreme Commander (pretty obvious she is ). Celestians with maces look nice as I thought, and their hooded heads will be useful. I too thought the "not missionary" named character was a generic priest too. I already have my own converted miniatures for priests anyway.
Biggest new of this show is "V9 Adepta Sororitas codex is coming !". Which we already knew it was.
Maybe the next show will show more of that "so many stuff that we need 2 days for 40k!". Heh, I'm just kidding, they will simply show a bit more of the Beastsnaggas.
Crimson wrote: I mean nothing is stopping you from using the model as a missionary or a priest.
Sure, but an actual kit would have meant a couple wargear options (again, assuming they still exist in the new codex) and head swaps or what have you to make lists with a couple of them have some variety.
And it looks like you can easily leave out the shield if need be.
Dunno. I think the hand will be part of the shield and will be attached to the rest of the gauntlet maybe a bit more than the wrist. Saying that because the Rosarius from the second picture looks pretty much stuck to the shield instead of being a separate part.
Oh, the other good news that comes to mind looking at the full squad of Sacresants, is that the mace arms look modular enough to facilitate easy swaps to generic Sisters who need to be promoted to Sisters Superior.
Also, the Community article says they can do Heroic Interventions, so that's nifty. Now all they need is the new bodyguard rule so they can... still not protect the majority of the characters in the book, if it's still restricted to <order> characters. /facepalm
Those are definitely power field cables in those shields so we can expect some sort of invulnerable save, but then I guess we were anyway? Would be nice if it was something that stacked with Shield of Faith so all those other SoF boosters would boost them too but…
Dunno. I think the hand will be part of the shield and will be attached to the rest of the gauntlet maybe a bit more than the wrist. Saying that because the Rosarius from the second picture looks pretty much stuck to the shield instead of being a separate part.
To me it looks like its supposed to be attached to pistol or backhand. Otherwise there doesn't seem to be other connection points.
But most people will pick them up just for hoods to cosplay them as Dark Angels.
Maces look solid. The bolters in the Sacresanct's shields are pistols, and have pistol upgrade options (plasma and hand flamer shown!), which is mind-blowing regardless of how you feel on the concept to start.
High Abbess character revealed, a High Lord of Terra on the battlefield. WTF, but it's a lovely model and a fantastic head sculpt that I will most likely steal. Cool that Sisters get a primarch/GD equivalent single character, I guess, but I'm a bit bummed that we get Junith as the Canonness Superior for OOML but no other Canoness Superiors, still.
Ditto for the apparent paired buddy for our banner bearer character we already met; that was a lousy bait-and-switch for me because when they showed it first off, I assumed it was a plastic missionary/priest kit, which would have been much more useful and exciting... unless priests are getting written out of the codex entirely, which I suppose could happen.
Community article said the new dex has "over 35 datasheets." With what we know is coming + the number of datasheets in the current book, can anyone do some incantations to guess on if we're losing units?
Las wrote: Community article said the new dex has "over 35 datasheets." With what we know is coming + the number of datasheets in the current book, can anyone do some incantations to guess on if we're losing units?
Hmm. 8th codex has 27 datasheets. Psychic whosit added 1. So we've seen previews for Palatine, Paragon Warsuits, Castigators, Dogmata, Sacresants, Bannerwoman whosit (and now her buddy, presumably in 1 as Kyganil and Ephrael were), and now Morvanna. That's 7 more, for 35 known datasheets.
So "over 35" was picked, if I had to guess, so they could leave us wondering how many more there are to come while implying there's at least 1 more we haven't seen. Certainly if they axe the last of the Inquisitor retinue units from our codex, we've got a few more on the way.
Las wrote: Community article said the new dex has "over 35 datasheets." With what we know is coming + the number of datasheets in the current book, can anyone do some incantations to guess on if we're losing units?
Hmm. 8th codex has 27 datasheets. Psychic whosit added 1. So we've seen previews for Palatine, Paragon Warsuits, Castigators, Dogmata, Sacresants, Bannerwoman whosit (and now her buddy, presumably in 1 as Kyganil and Ephrael were), and now Morvanna. That's 7 more, for 35 known datasheets.
So "over 35" was picked, if I had to guess, so they could leave us wondering how many more there are to come while implying there's at least 1 more we haven't seen.
You have a gift for divining the emperor's tarot, my friend. Hope you're right.
Las wrote: Community article said the new dex has "over 35 datasheets." With what we know is coming + the number of datasheets in the current book, can anyone do some incantations to guess on if we're losing units?
Hmm. 8th codex has 27 datasheets. Psychic whosit added 1. So we've seen previews for Palatine, Paragon Warsuits, Castigators, Dogmata, Sacresants, Bannerwoman whosit (and now her buddy, presumably in 1 as Kyganil and Ephrael were), and now Morvanna. That's 7 more, for 35 known datasheets.
So "over 35" was picked, if I had to guess, so they could leave us wondering how many more there are to come while implying there's at least 1 more we haven't seen.
It also means that is unlikely that none are lost.*
Mr_Rose wrote: Those are definitely power field cables in those shields so we can expect some sort of invulnerable save, but then I guess we were anyway? Would be nice if it was something that stacked with Shield of Faith so all those other SoF boosters would boost them too but…
If they are smart it won't be SoF to avoid accidently doing broken stuff.
I think the question is if it will be a combat shield or storm shield. So 5++ or 4++.
A squad of these with hand flamers standing on an objective could be very spicy.
Holy crap, I might have missed the biggest bombshell of the day on my first listen!
In the interview with Stu Black, he says at 0:48, "introducing new troop types" -- does he mean Troop types, or unit types? Because a second unit of Troops would be amazing for list composition variety, and something we haven't seen since Stormtroopers out of the 3rd-5th ed Witch Hunters codex...
Alternately, of course, he might have just been sloppy with his wording, and meant "troop types" as in a unit of infantry, which the Sacresants would fulfill.
I have to ask is that all? I expected more. I would like something fast in my fast attack slots please as well as some variety in the troops. What I see is my elite and heavy slots filled up with a lot of what probably amounts to junk. I could of course be surprised. For the most part I like the models though.
andrewm9 wrote: I have to ask is that all? I expected more. I would like something fast in my fast attack slots please as well as some variety in the troops. What I see is my elite and heavy slots filled up with a lot of what probably amounts to junk. I could of course be surprised. For the most part I like the models though.
Well, objectively they're getting a lot of models, especially for what's functionally an army that was just completely redone (bar some hangers-on). Fewer special characters would have been better, but at least they have some choice of generic HQs now.
andrewm9 wrote: I have to ask is that all? I expected more. I would like something fast in my fast attack slots please as well as some variety in the troops. What I see is my elite and heavy slots filled up with a lot of what probably amounts to junk. I could of course be surprised. For the most part I like the models though.
Well, objectively they're getting a lot of models, especially for what's functionally an army that was just completely redone (bar some hangers-on). Fewer special characters would have been better, but at least they have some choice of generic HQs now.
I have a feeling they had all this stuff ready for a while and dragged it out in order to keep from overwhelming the player base with choices. Its smart really. I just wish they would do a new troop type too! We have too many darn elites as it is! Maybe the new Not a Chaplain will be an HQ too?
First post is updated with these new goodies. I'm super excited that Miracle Dice survived to a second codex. That is the first time the same Acts of Faith rules were published in a new Codex.
With all these new models, I'm hoping they reevaluate which FOC roles different units have. The Elites area is totally overloaded and half of the new units could be placed in there if they wanted to. Hopefully they will spread all the units around a bit.
Not out of the question for celestians (and the new varients) to end up as troops. Immortals (necrons) and scions (guard) are troops; pretty much more elite versions of the normal troops.
ierp wrote: Perhaps Death Cult Assassin and Zephyrims could be put in the fast attack slot.
Zephyrims should be in the FA slot. I still doubt Death Cult Assassin will make it into the new 'Dex (unless the interview yesterday said something different - I've not watched it).
ierp wrote: Perhaps Death Cult Assassin and Zephyrims could be put in the fast attack slot.
Zephyrims should be in the FA slot. I still doubt Death Cult Assassin will make it into the new 'Dex (unless the interview yesterday said something different - I've not watched it).
The article mentions 'over 35 datasheets' and someone did some counting. Even if they take nothing out, they're not at that number yet. So either something is still unseen (maybe a bomber hinted at in one of the stained glass shots from the 'faith and damnation' preview), or something like the new celestian unit or the tank are actually separate datasheets (one for each turret option for the tank, for example).
But the more existing units they take out, the more new stuff they have to add to achieve 36 (or more)
The new high lord of terra Morvenn Vahl is gonna be op. She has less than 10W, so can hide in the army without being targeted. In a warsuit, so will have powerful ranged weapon and what looks like a powerful relic sword. Plus she halves damage upon her. So, after getting through all the invul and whatnot, you will only do half damage to her.
Who is gonna bet she is cheaper than Abaddon, but better than Abaddon.
OK, wait. The WHC article for the next Charadon book says it sees fresh forces being drawn into the conflict, including Belakor and Morvenn Vahl. So the chief sister suit is going to be in the Charadon book and not the codex? I truly hope not.
bullyboy wrote: OK, wait. The WHC article for the next Charadon book says it sees fresh forces being drawn into the conflict, including Belakor and Morvenn Vahl. So the chief sister suit is going to be in the Charadon book and not the codex? I truly hope not.
That's a good point that I forgot while I was mathing. If Morvenn is in Charadon II, that frees up another datasheet before we hit the 35 number for the codex!
There are 27 Datasheets in the current codex. There are 7 new units from the preview plus the Daemonifuge for 35 units exactly. Any unit removed requires the addition of another unit. The one easy extra unit I could see is Canoness on Hover Pulpit. Or they could be splitting some other unit into two datasheet. Nothing seems likely since we are only dealing with weapons options.
I see a 0.01% chance of Morvenn not being in the Codex. She is a character in the Book of Fire storyline, so I expect there will be some extra Adepta Sororitas content int he book. I'd expect either an Army of Renown or a supplement for one of the Orders. GW is being very cagey at this point only confirming that Be’lakor and the Disciples of Be’lakor will be in the book, nothing else.
The easy one I see them doing is splitting the Castigator profile into two profiles like they did with all of the new Primaris tanks.
One datasheet for the battle cannon, one datasheet for the autocannon.
Annnnnnything else would probably be wishful thinking.
I'm still hoping we see more generic cannoness options (or any other type of leader, like the palatine) with jet packs or paragon suits...
but I'm not holding my breath.
Still, love the new models and will get at least one of each, with probably an extra of the celestians. They mentioned being able to take halberds or maces, and a unit full of halberds sounds too awesome to pass up.
drbored wrote: The easy one I see them doing is splitting the Castigator profile into two profiles like they did with all of the new Primaris tanks.
One datasheet for the battle cannon, one datasheet for the autocannon.
If that's the case, the Exorcist would also have two datasheets for both of its munitions.
Primaris tanks don't just have the main cannon changing, but also the side weapons. Here, it's not the case : it's just the main cannon. So they can adjust it easily with one datasheet (if one weapon is more powerful, put the other as default weapon and add +1 power to the other when replacing it. Individual point costs don't care about that anyway).
But otherwise, yes, it's possible they multiply the datasheets this way. Like, canoness with every different option as separate datasheet or 3 Immolator datasheets.
I also think everything will be in the codex. And that we won't have any other generic character than we already have / were shown : meaning no generic canoness in parangon battlesuit nor on pulpit, nor a generic reliquant at arm with banner. Those are named characters and that's it.
No Frateris Militia either...if that was the case, they would have shown it in the live. It makes no sense to hide anything else when it was already that weak as a reveal.
What will be in the Charadon book of fire will be an army of renown. Namely, our High Abbess and her crusade force, certainly heavily focused on parangon battlesuits and her personnal bodyguards (just an hypothesis, but it's highly probable to me).
drbored wrote: The easy one I see them doing is splitting the Castigator profile into two profiles like they did with all of the new Primaris tanks.
One datasheet for the battle cannon, one datasheet for the autocannon.
If that's the case, the Exorcist would also have two datasheets for both of its munitions.
Nah - the Exorcist mirrors the Whirlwind here. One weapon, two different munition profiles.
The Castigator looks to be closer to the Predator in terms of datasheet here - where the Annihilator and Destructor get different datasheets, despite the difference being the turret weapon.
Sarouan wrote: I also think everything will be in the codex. And that we won't have any other generic character than we already have / were shown : meaning no generic canoness in parangon battlesuit nor on pulpit, nor a generic reliquant at arm with banner. Those are named characters and that's it.
I tend to agree with you that every model will be in the 'dex - so Morvenn Vahl will be in the 'dex itself, even if her special formation/army isn't.
Sarouan wrote: What will be in the Charadon book of fire will be an army of renown. Namely, our High Abbess and her crusade force, certainly heavily focused on parangon battlesuits and her personnal bodyguards (just an hypothesis, but it's highly probable to me).
I'm not sure how much was said on the stream about the book - I'm working off the WHC article, and it is thin when it comes to non-Be'lakor detail - but if the SoB were mentioned as being in there, an Army of Renown seems "reasonable". As I said above, I don't see it containing any SoB datasheets.
I'm not sure how much was said on the stream about the book - I'm working off the WHC article, and it is thin when it comes to non-Be'lakor detail - but if the SoB were mentioned as being in there, an Army of Renown seems "reasonable". As I said above, I don't see it containing any SoB datasheets.
I think the only datasheet that will be in the Charadon book of fire will just be Be'lakor, and the rest will be new armies of renown and additionnal rules for the Crusade game mode. Maybe a few more rules like new litanies for the dogmata or new relics / stratagems. Oh, and new missions obviously. It's still a book for narrative play, after all.
It'd be great if GW actually listened to what the community wanted and threw in a datasheet for generic characters instead of all these named characters.
As it is, it's pretty clear to me that the banner bearer and the high abbess will have rules similar to Celestine. You can likely take them in any Order and they won't effect the Order abilities. That's the trend.
It'd be great if GW actually listened to what the community wanted and threw in a datasheet for generic characters instead of all these named characters.
As it is, it's pretty clear to me that the banner bearer and the high abbess will have rules similar to Celestine. You can likely take them in any Order and they won't effect the Order abilities. That's the trend.
Well, Abess will probably be her own detachment. But yes, that's what we should expect
It'd be great if GW actually listened to what the community wanted and threw in a datasheet for generic characters instead of all these named characters.
As it is, it's pretty clear to me that the banner bearer and the high abbess will have rules similar to Celestine. You can likely take them in any Order and they won't effect the Order abilities. That's the trend.
Well, Abess will probably be her own detachment. But yes, that's what we should expect
Yeah, kinda worried about that. Like, I'd take another detachment for a Knight or a Baneblade, but to take a whole detachment just for one 9-wound character seems so silly...
It'd be great if GW actually listened to what the community wanted and threw in a datasheet for generic characters instead of all these named characters.
As it is, it's pretty clear to me that the banner bearer and the high abbess will have rules similar to Celestine. You can likely take them in any Order and they won't effect the Order abilities. That's the trend.
Well, Abess will probably be her own detachment. But yes, that's what we should expect
Yeah, kinda worried about that. Like, I'd take another detachment for a Knight or a Baneblade, but to take a whole detachment just for one 9-wound character seems so silly...
I mean Supreme Command detachments are basically free. Not sure its much to worry about.
It'd be great if GW actually listened to what the community wanted and threw in a datasheet for generic characters instead of all these named characters.
As it is, it's pretty clear to me that the banner bearer and the high abbess will have rules similar to Celestine. You can likely take them in any Order and they won't effect the Order abilities. That's the trend.
Well, Abess will probably be her own detachment. But yes, that's what we should expect
Yeah, kinda worried about that. Like, I'd take another detachment for a Knight or a Baneblade, but to take a whole detachment just for one 9-wound character seems so silly...
I mean Supreme Command detachments are basically free. Not sure its much to worry about.
It's not at all. And since the High Abbess is not linked to one order in particular, it doesn't matter as well if she doesn't have the <Order> keyword (pretty sure she'll have a special rule about that, anyway).
I'm just happy they confirmed we'll have custom rules to make our own Minoris order, like custom SM chapters.
I know most of them won't be as interesting as the main orders, but still, after the disappointment of Psychic Awakening for sister rules, it's about damn time we have our own chew toys as well.
That and Crusade rules and specific sister secondary objectives. The rest is just bonus to me.
bullyboy wrote: OK, wait. The WHC article for the next Charadon book says it sees fresh forces being drawn into the conflict, including Belakor and Morvenn Vahl. So the chief sister suit is going to be in the Charadon book and not the codex? I truly hope not.
How else are you going to justify her being taken in any imperial faction? I bet like Bel'akor she can be hot swapped into any imperium army. She's a Thigh Lord of Terra afterall right? Gives everyone (most anyway) something to purchase for 9th.
How else are you going to justify her being taken in any imperial faction? I bet like Bel'akor she can be hot swapped into any imperium army. She's a Thigh Lord of Terra afterall right? Gives everyone (most anyway) something to purchase for 9th.
Before being a High Lord, She's the High Abbess of both convents of militants order of Adepta Sororitas.
It's like saying Roboute Guillimann shouldn't be in the Space Marine codex (which he is, by the way) because he's the high commander of the crusade force to free the other half of the Imperium.
Plain nonsense.
So, by all means, think whatever you want, she'll be in our codex anyway - where she belongs.
Funny calling her a Thigh Lord since to the contrary of other battlesuits, she wears a robe hiding her battlesuit legs. But demeaning nicknames are meant to be demeaning, not logical, right ?
How else are you going to justify her being taken in any imperial faction? I bet like Bel'akor she can be hot swapped into any imperium army. She's a Thigh Lord of Terra afterall right? Gives everyone (most anyway) something to purchase for 9th.
Before being a High Lord, She's the High Abbess of both convents of militants order of Adepta Sororitas.
It's like saying Roboute Guillimann shouldn't be in the Space Marine codex (which he is, by the way) because he's the high commander of the crusade force to free the other half of the Imperium.
Plain nonsense.
So, by all means, think whatever you want, she'll be in our codex anyway - where she belongs.
Funny calling her a Thigh Lord since to the contrary of other battlesuits, she wears a robe hiding her battlesuit legs. But demeaning nicknames are meant to be demeaning, not logical, right ?
Show me where exactly I said she should or should no be in the codex?
How else are you going to justify her being taken in any imperial faction? I bet like Bel'akor she can be hot swapped into any imperium army. She's a Thigh Lord of Terra afterall right? Gives everyone (most anyway) something to purchase for 9th.
Before being a High Lord, She's the High Abbess of both convents of militants order of Adepta Sororitas.
It's like saying Roboute Guillimann shouldn't be in the Space Marine codex (which he is, by the way) because he's the high commander of the crusade force to free the other half of the Imperium.
Plain nonsense.
Uh... Roboute _isn't_ in the SM codex.
This one probably will be in both- GW isn't shy about duplicating material between codex/battletome and random supplement of the week.
Mechsuit High Lord Lady has actually grown on me over the last few days. The other battle suits still look awful, but she’s actually a really nice mini.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: I think part of the reason she looks far better (to me, anyway) has to be the cloth obscuring where the legs meet the torso of the mech suit.
I think you’re right, as well as being a much better pose. It’s not just a slightly better mini, it’s in a totally different league. I actually want one, whereas I wouldn’t want the other war suits if the minis were free and they were the best units in the game.
One of the youngest ever holders of the position
Specifically chosen to be manipulated, but she's beyond that
Suit restored by the Fabricator General himself
Prefers fighting to doing her boring admin job
Wow, that Vahl model is so horrible... just looking at the arms and the head, and trying to figure out where her actual body parts meet and their proportions... how long is her neck?
As much as I hate the baby carrier/cargo loader walker design, this one really takes it down a notch.
Sterling191 wrote: Because what Sister's really needed are Retributors with access to full hit *and* wound rerolls in shooting.
My first thought.
This is getting pretty insane. I mean, her weapons are also a sign of how silly the creep has reached. She can't just have a S8 -3 flat 3 damage weapon with no hit mod, no it also has to inflict mortals but wait, theres more! It also has an alternate profile for swinging with volume.
She has two krack missiles and a HB, but wait theres more! The missiles also can be shot as 36" range bolters for more volume!
Her suit not only is a 2+ 4++ halving all damage, no no no hold on! It also ignores mortal wounds on a 4+!
Not only is she a captain, shes also a lieutenant!
Not only is she a chapter master, shes also full wound rerolls!
I am fine with her being very good, she should be, but they really have run out of room to make new characters without throwing everything AND the kitchen sink at them. If she is such a hot head she skips the clerical duties to hit people in the face then why does she have such an absurd aura? Pick a lane GW.
Sterling191 wrote: Because what Sister's really needed are Retributors with access to full hit *and* wound rerolls in shooting.
My first thought.
This is getting pretty insane. I mean, her weapons are also a sign of how silly the creep has reached. She can't just have a S8 -3 flat 3 damage weapon with no hit mod, no it also has to inflict mortals but wait, theres more! It also has an alternate profile for swinging with volume.
She has two krack missiles and a HB, but wait theres more! The missiles also can be shot as 36" range bolters for more volume!
Her suit not only is a 2+ 4++ halving all damage, no no no hold on! It also ignores mortal wounds on a 4+!
Not only is she a captain, shes also a lieutenant!
Not only is she a chapter master, shes also full wound rerolls!
I am fine with her being very good, she should be, but they really have run out of room to make new characters without throwing everything AND the kitchen sink at them. If she is such a hot head she skips the clerical duties to hit people in the face then why does she have such an absurd aura? Pick a lane GW.
Is there is literally any rule she could have and doesn't.
GaroRobe wrote: Weird that they gave her multiple head options. The scowling face is pretty awful imo
'Eavy Metal struggle to paint faces at the best of times. I'm sure when other painters get ahold of them it'll look better.
I think her lore would've been more interesting if her going out to kick arse and take names was presented as a negative. The Ecclesiarchy want her out there being another Marvel Avenger because her disinterest allows them to get whatever they want rubber stamped and exert their influence 'back home' without worrying she's going to return and swat their hands. Of course this is the 42nd Millenium where there are only superheroes.
Sterling191 wrote: Because what Sister's really needed are Retributors with access to full hit *and* wound rerolls in shooting.
My first thought.
This is getting pretty insane. I mean, her weapons are also a sign of how silly the creep has reached. She can't just have a S8 -3 flat 3 damage weapon with no hit mod, no it also has to inflict mortals but wait, theres more! It also has an alternate profile for swinging with volume.
She has two krack missiles and a HB, but wait theres more! The missiles also can be shot as 36" range bolters for more volume!
Her suit not only is a 2+ 4++ halving all damage, no no no hold on! It also ignores mortal wounds on a 4+!
Not only is she a captain, shes also a lieutenant!
Not only is she a chapter master, shes also full wound rerolls!
I am fine with her being very good, she should be, but they really have run out of room to make new characters without throwing everything AND the kitchen sink at them. If she is such a hot head she skips the clerical duties to hit people in the face then why does she have such an absurd aura? Pick a lane GW.
Is there is literally any rule she could have and doesn't.
Sterling191 wrote: Because what Sister's really needed are Retributors with access to full hit *and* wound rerolls in shooting.
My first thought.
This is getting pretty insane. I mean, her weapons are also a sign of how silly the creep has reached. She can't just have a S8 -3 flat 3 damage weapon with no hit mod, no it also has to inflict mortals but wait, theres more! It also has an alternate profile for swinging with volume.
She has two krack missiles and a HB, but wait theres more! The missiles also can be shot as 36" range bolters for more volume!
Her suit not only is a 2+ 4++ halving all damage, no no no hold on! It also ignores mortal wounds on a 4+!
Not only is she a captain, shes also a lieutenant!
Not only is she a chapter master, shes also full wound rerolls!
I am fine with her being very good, she should be, but they really have run out of room to make new characters without throwing everything AND the kitchen sink at them. If she is such a hot head she skips the clerical duties to hit people in the face then why does she have such an absurd aura? Pick a lane GW.
Is there is literally any rule she could have and doesn't.
No. She is the bestest evar.
You're right, she should have had 1 wound no save and an aura of reroll successful hits. That would have been MUCH better. You guys should be game designers.
Uh captain, lieutenant, super chapter master ( full hit rerolls, and full wound rerolls).
Less than 10 wounds so can’t be targeted.
Now, I’m guessing in the new codex things like repentia and penitent engines won’t be Core, but I guarantee retributors will be.
If their tanks get core, watch out.
One thing she has even better than guilleman, is they you’re not sub-faction locked with her bonuses, while guilleman only fully buffs Ultramarines. A 4++ invuln and T5 doesn’t look too tough until you see the halving damage.
With these stats and auras, she’d have to be at least as expensive as guilleman.
I think we can see the writing on the wall here for the SM codex, lol.
Based on the codexes so far; infantry and infantry walkers get Core, vehicles do not. Even weird, elite infantry like Repentia.
Quite plausible that Flagellants will not be Core though. Nor any of the other Ministorum hangers-on.
Her points cost is definitely going to make or break her as a unit, since her being too cheap is going to see her being an auto-take for most Sisters armies, while being priced too highly compared to just taking Cannonesses and Palatines will result her being not taken at all.
I'll be honest. I defended her before my peers but she smells a little over designed.
She has literall all the bestests buff options plus the best weapon profile (F8 AP-3 3D mortal wounds no -1 to hit) with sweep profile and a ton of ranged firepower (2 ML+Heavy Bolter) and a insuperable defensive profile.
I'm sure shes gonna cost a ton of points but still, thats a badly designed unit. He makes Abaddon and Marneus Calgar weep, and even Guilliman doesnt has all with him agaisnt her, they are pretty comparable.
Guilliman is still superior to her but not enough difference in power to how a human in a super suit with relics should compare to a Primarch in a super suit.
Mr Morden wrote: How does she compare with similar Supreme Commanders and Lords?
She has one more W but one less Ld on Trajann Valoris. Trajann has a 3++ and re-roll 1s to hit & wound, but his weapons & other abilities aren't as good - he's 190 points.
She is exacly as previewed. Chapter master level with command abilities on the level of a Primarch.
She is literally a Marneus Calgar with better command abilities.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, I'm liking her design quite a lot.
It really speaks for what she is, a very respected nun in a big robot.
Her stats are the same ones as a standard canoness, she just has one more attack.
There is nothing about her which is her being a "Better sister". It's literally just a very well equipped sister. All her big stats and rules are all tied to the equipment.
What does the "each time an attack is made with this weapon, make 2 hit rolls (or 3 in the case of the Flails for Mortifiers) instead of 1" mean?
Why not attack 10 instead?
Or do you get to choose 5 out of the 10 rolls to go with?
buckero0 wrote: What does the "each time an attack is made with this weapon, make 2 hit rolls (or 3 in the case of the Flails for Mortifiers) instead of 1" mean?
Why not attack 10 instead?
Or do you get to choose 5 out of the 10 rolls to go with?
You can choose where to put your Attacks - so she could make 3 "Sweeping Blow" Attacks (for 6 rolls) and 2 "Lunging Strike" Attacks.
What does the "each time an attack is made with this weapon, make 2 hit rolls (or 3 in the case of the Flails for Mortifiers) instead of 1" mean?
Why not attack 10 instead?
Or do you get to choose 5 out of the 10 rolls to go with?
Usually such rules are to give you options - you double the number of attacks but they are weaker.
It's more stupid power creep and another unfortunate move towards a game about super heroes punching one another while buffing their minions, but that shouldn't surprise anyone at this point.
What's more disappointing is that she isn't even interesting from a rules point of view. It's just all brute power, nothing flavorful or interesting. Compare her to say the Triumph, or Celestine - or even Junith - and you see how boring a model she is.
Mr Morden wrote: How does she compare with similar Supreme Commanders and Lords?
She has one more W but one less Ld on Trajann Valoris. Trajann has a 3++ and re-roll 1s to hit & wound, but his weapons & other abilities aren't as good - he's 190 points.
Let’s be real about this. You take a unit like this for it’s force multiplier on your army. The raw stats are the gravy. Her force multipliers are unparalleled in that they have very little restriction and she has, like, all of them minus a charge bonus, which is almost redundant when miracle dice are involved.
She’s less than 10 wounds so cannot be targeted, so the fact she gets such top tier buffing power on top of decent weapons and fighting power herself is really scary. If she is under 300 points and Core doesn’t end up very restrictive, she will insanely powerful.
yukishiro1 wrote: It's more stupid power creep and another unfortunate move towards a game about super heroes punching one another while buffing their minions, but that shouldn't surprise anyone at this point.
What's more disappointing is that she isn't even interesting from a rules point of view. It's just all brute power, nothing flavorful or interesting. Compare her to say the Triumph, or Celestine - or even Junith - and you see how boring a model she is.
I remember people complaining about herohammer in 3rd Edition so this isn't really a new thing, much less some sort of creep in that regard.
And the fact that people have been complaining about the game being too character-centric for a long time now shows that creep *is* at work, not that it isn't, especially when you consider we didn't have basically any big centerpiece models back then.
Big centerpiece creep is very much a thing. In less than one year of 9th alone, Necrons and now SoB have been given them, adding to the big centerpiece models we got from 7th and 8th.
It's always the same trope. Preview articles show bits of rules without points cost and people go moaning about how overpowered she is. Then when the codex comes with full rules and point cost...suddenly, it's not the same anymore. How strange, really.
That, and the usual hyperboles "she looks like gak with her face on" "I don't understand why there is a choice to put her without her helmet". Not worth it to react to that.
Wait and see, as usual. No, it should be the actual rule for everything, now.
And the fact that people have been complaining about the game being too character-centric for a long time now shows that creep *is* at work, not that it isn't, especially when you consider we didn't have basically any big centerpiece models back then.
Big centerpiece creep is very much a thing. In less than one year of 9th alone, Necrons and now SoB have been given them, adding to the big centerpiece models we got from 7th and 8th.
If the hyperbole was true every character would be statted like a Warlord Titan at this point. The characters aren't creeping, the commuity is just banging it's knee on their desks and posting that as a hot take everytime GW goes "look at this new thing!".
It't not OP or any of these other accusations yet because as stated above, she could be perfectly costed for the ability.
What it is though is boring. Why are they making sisters female marines? Why is she capable of being a bobby G of sorts when sisters rules have so many other intereactions and nuances that she could compliment instead? How about every unit within 6" can use an act of faith in each phase.
Of course this is limited by the amount of miracle dice you have, but if you save them up through the game and she is still knocking around with a decent cohort in those later rounds, then the beta strike can be made. It's powerful but also favourable to the army rather than female marines.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: It't not OP or any of these other accusations yet because as stated above, she could be perfectly costed for the ability.
What it is though is boring. Why are they making sisters female marines? Why is she capable of being a bobby G of sorts when sisters rules have so many other intereactions and nuances that she could compliment instead? How about every unit within 6" can use an act of faith in each phase.
Of course this is limited by the amount of miracle dice you have, but if you save them up through the game and she is still knocking around with a decent cohort in those later rounds, then the beta strike can be made. It's powerful but also favourable to the army rather than female marines.
How is she a female Marine? Does she have the Astartes keyword? ATSKNF? Chapter Tactics?
She's a high ranking Sister with great wargear. S/T5 comes from the suit and her spear does a lot of lifting in melee. She's just a souped up named Canonness in a warsuit with a nice pointy stick.
Quasistellar wrote: Yeah let’s just pretend full reroll hits AND wounds isn’t strong.
Depends actually of the unit able to reroll hits and wounds.
And that means it depends of which units will be CORE for sisters, and which equipment the characters will have.
If it's just a basic sister unit that can have only 10 girls with mostly bolters or a canoness with limited weapons...it's not that strong, in the end.
So, better to wait the full rules - meaning full codex.
Quasistellar wrote: Yeah let’s just pretend full reroll hits AND wounds isn’t strong.
She can only do that to a single core unit a turn within 6" so it's strong, but not game breaking. And she's going to come at a premium for that.
The power of that ability will also hinge on what is and is not core in the new book. A single heavy weapon squad of 5 sisters is mean but not game breaking, a 10 man sister squad with bolters is okay but nothing exceptional. If those warsuits are core by some silly chance then yeah there will be some power behind the ability. But otherwise it's just, handy to have right?
And the fact that people have been complaining about the game being too character-centric for a long time now shows that creep *is* at work, not that it isn't, especially when you consider we didn't have basically any big centerpiece models back then.
Big centerpiece creep is very much a thing. In less than one year of 9th alone, Necrons and now SoB have been given them, adding to the big centerpiece models we got from 7th and 8th.
If the hyperbole was true every character would be statted like a Warlord Titan at this point. The characters aren't creeping, the commuity is just banging it's knee on their desks and posting that as a hot take everytime GW goes "look at this new thing!".
Have sisters ever had a character anywhere this level of power? No. So obviously there is some creep going on. I don't know what you're even arguing against here, it seems like a straw man to rant at. Points for the hyperbolically ironic use of the hyperbole charge, though.
I would not be surprised at all if shes less then 200 points. With the points they gave Drazhar and succubi, I bet both her and Call are not far off from the 200 point mark in either direction.
I think your first thoughts might be a bit overblown.
Red Corsair wrote:My first thought.
This is getting pretty insane. I mean, her weapons are also a sign of how silly the creep has reached. She can't just have a S8 -3 flat 3 damage weapon with no hit mod, no it also has to inflict mortals but wait, theres more! It also has an alternate profile for swinging with volume.
Two attack modes is pretty common on Monsters now days. Heck, some hard hitting infantry units (Deathshroud Terminators) have such weapons. GW seems to have decided they don't want these units tied down by hordes of mooks.
She has two krack missiles and a HB, but wait theres more! The missiles also can be shot as 36" range bolters for more volume!
OMG! She has a weapon that has the exact same stats as a Cyclone Missile Launcher!
Her suit not only is a 2+ 4++ halving all damage, no no no hold on! It also ignores mortal wounds on a 4+!
So like Calgar with Mortal Wound mitigation added. I guess it pays to be a holy figure and High Lord of Terra.
Not only is she a captain, shes also a lieutenant!
Not only is she a chapter master, shes also full wound rerolls!
Kinda like Robot Guilliman, but only for one unit on hit rolls while allowing full damage reroll. But RG has that other aura (Master of Battle) going for him. I guess she's a bit better in her specialization.
I am fine with her being very good, she should be, but they really have run out of room to make new characters without throwing everything AND the kitchen sink at them. If she is such a hot head she skips the clerical duties to hit people in the face then why does she have such an absurd aura? Pick a lane GW.
Encouraging her buddies to also hit them in the face is unfluffy because she doesn't like paper work?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:LOL not even Roboute halves damage coming at him.
But Calgar does. Roboute just has higher toughness, more wounds, a 3++, and stands back up with d6 more wounds. Different forms of toughness to keep thing interesting.
Have sisters ever had a character anywhere this level of power? No. So obviously there is some creep going on. I don't know what you're even arguing against here, it seems like a straw man to rant at. Points for the hyperbolically ironic use of the hyperbole charge, though.
You didn't play Celestine before the V8 codex, did you.
Have sisters ever had a character anywhere this level of power? No. So obviously there is some creep going on. I don't know what you're even arguing against here, it seems like a straw man to rant at. Points for the hyperbolically ironic use of the hyperbole charge, though.
You didn't play Celestine before the V8 codex, did you.
Exactly, Celestine was a monster for quite some time. Honestly I wonder where people get these ideas from. The new High Lord's power is appropriate to her position and reflects her authority. She doesn't even go full High Lord and order around non-Sisters in her rules like Guilliman does.
Have sisters ever had a character anywhere this level of power? No. So obviously there is some creep going on. I don't know what you're even arguing against here, it seems like a straw man to rant at. Points for the hyperbolically ironic use of the hyperbole charge, though.
You didn't play Celestine before the V8 codex, did you.
Celestine in 7th wasn't close to this level of power, she was just a pain to remove. I don't know about before that, I didn't play 6th.
You just don't notice these days because everything else in the game has...wait for it...creeped along to the point where it doesn't seem so out of place any more to have models like these...because it isn't out of place any more. This is the new reality. Every faction gets a big powerful superhero centerpiece. Why they had to make a new, boring one instead of the old, interesting one SoB already had I'm not sure, other than that it's a new kit for people to buy.
yukishiro1 wrote: It's more stupid power creep and another unfortunate move towards a game about super heroes punching one another while buffing their minions, but that shouldn't surprise anyone at this point.
What's more disappointing is that she isn't even interesting from a rules point of view. It's just all brute power, nothing flavorful or interesting. Compare her to say the Triumph, or Celestine - or even Junith - and you see how boring a model she is.
I remember people complaining about herohammer in 3rd Edition so this isn't really a new thing, much less some sort of creep in that regard.
Whining that a model does what it looks like it should do. A new low for an already very mediocre community.
Have sisters ever had a character anywhere this level of power? No. So obviously there is some creep going on. I don't know what you're even arguing against here, it seems like a straw man to rant at. Points for the hyperbolically ironic use of the hyperbole charge, though.
You didn't play Celestine before the V8 codex, did you.
Celestine in 7th wasn't close to this level of power, she was just a pain to remove. I don't know about before that, I didn't play 6th.
You just don't notice these days because everything else in the game has...wait for it...creeped along to the point where it doesn't seem so out of place any more to have models like these...because it isn't out of place any more. This is the new reality. Every faction gets a big powerful superhero centerpiece. Why they had to make a new, boring one instead of the old, interesting one SoB already had I'm not sure, other than that it's a new kit for people to buy.
I can never take anything you say seriously for the rest of time.
Celestine in 7th and ESPECIALLY in the index was BONKERS. She could win 1000-1500pt games BY HERSELF thanks to her insane longevity and even crazier speed.
This chick is just some beatstick with a decent aura ability and the minimum amount of defense necessary for a footslog melee character to have a shot at getting into combat.
Do you even play 40k?
Yunno what, that's not enough for how stupid this take was. Celestine was so obscene in the index that even without a good aura ability, even at 250 points, she was an auto-include in EVERY IMPERIAL ARMY for a significant amount of that era. If you knew how to use her you could slaughter 3-5 times her point value without taking any damage, or shut down an entire tank battery off the jump with no response but overwatch. She was a cuisinart of bs and easily the most OP thing sisters have EVER had.
My point is proven re: creep when someone says that a buff to give a unit full hits and wounds rerolls is just "decent" and that 2+/4++/4+++ to mortal wounds / half all damage / 8W is the "minimum amount of defense necessary" for a character of her type. Talk about making someone's point for them without realizing it.
Re: Celestine in 7th, I was talking about the codex version, I came back to the game after the codex was released in 7th, I have no idea what she was like in the index. If she was that powerful, that sounds extremely stupid. The codex version was good, but not insane, and was certainly not a big centerpiece model that's just about throwing every possible brute strength rule together into a package the way this lady is.
yukishiro1 wrote: My point is proven re: creep when someone says that a buff to give a unit full hits and wounds rerolls is just "decent" and that 2+/4++/4+++ to mortal wounds / half all damage / 8W is the "minimum amount of defense necessary" for a character of her type. Talk about making someone's point for them without realizing it.
Re: Celestine in 7th, I was talking about the codex version, I came back to the game after the codex was released in 7th, I have no idea what she was like in the index. If she was that powerful, that sounds extremely stupid. The codex version was good, but not insane, and was certainly not a big centerpiece model that's just about throwing every possible brute strength rule together into a package the way this lady is.
yukishiro1 wrote: My point is proven re: creep when someone says that a buff to give a unit full hits and wounds rerolls is just "decent" and that 2+/4++/4+++ to mortal wounds / half all damage / 8W is the "minimum amount of defense necessary" for a character of her type. Talk about making someone's point for them without realizing it.
Re: Celestine in 7th, I was talking about the codex version, I came back to the game after the codex was released in 7th, I have no idea what she was like in the index. If she was that powerful, that sounds extremely stupid. The codex version was good, but not insane, and was certainly not a big centerpiece model that's just about throwing every possible brute strength rule together into a package the way this lady is.
Indexes were 8th ed
Oh, he meant the 8th edition index version? Yeah, she was pretty stupid in the index, though not nearly as much as he was claiming re: being able to solo 1000 points and stupid stuff like that. And the indexes were the indexes, I don't think you can really cite them as examples of how powerful stuff was supposed to be, there was all sorts of stupid in those.
Sarouan wrote: It's always the same trope. Preview articles show bits of rules without points cost and people go moaning about how overpowered she is. Then when the codex comes with full rules and point cost...suddenly, it's not the same anymore. How strange, really.
That, and the usual hyperboles "she looks like gak with her face on" "I don't understand why there is a choice to put her without her helmet". Not worth it to react to that.
Wait and see, as usual. No, it should be the actual rule for everything, now.
Funnily enough more than 9/10 times it's the wait and see that proves to be wrong. Big time.
Gw isn't subtle, they don't care about balaec and are lousy game designers(hired for attitude rather than ability after all). There's no subtle interactions etc. Just easv to see problems.
There's reasln broken combls and lists are found befove full book is leaked
endlesswaltz123 wrote: It't not OP or any of these other accusations yet because as stated above, she could be perfectly costed for the ability.
What it is though is boring. Why are they making sisters female marines? Why is she capable of being a bobby G of sorts when sisters rules have so many other intereactions and nuances that she could compliment instead? How about every unit within 6" can use an act of faith in each phase.
Of course this is limited by the amount of miracle dice you have, but if you save them up through the game and she is still knocking around with a decent cohort in those later rounds, then the beta strike can be made. It's powerful but also favourable to the army rather than female marines.
How is she a female Marine? Does she have the Astartes keyword? ATSKNF? Chapter Tactics?
She's a high ranking Sister with great wargear. S/T5 comes from the suit and her spear does a lot of lifting in melee. She's just a souped up named Canonness in a warsuit with a nice pointy stick.
Stats and Wargear are very marine like, but that wasn't the point I was making, the special rules are basically marine special rules, specifically Bobby G, there's more nuance in sisters rules to do something more favourable that fits into their special rules rather than just re-doing the marine special rules on a different army (that then start to act more like marines also, castle up etc).
Yeah, it's a really boring model in terms of rules. Just brute force stuff - rerolls, half damage, etc. Not nearly as interesting as the Triumph, or Celestine for that matter.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: It't not OP or any of these other accusations yet because as stated above, she could be perfectly costed for the ability.
What it is though is boring. Why are they making sisters female marines? Why is she capable of being a bobby G of sorts when sisters rules have so many other intereactions and nuances that she could compliment instead? How about every unit within 6" can use an act of faith in each phase.
Of course this is limited by the amount of miracle dice you have, but if you save them up through the game and she is still knocking around with a decent cohort in those later rounds, then the beta strike can be made. It's powerful but also favourable to the army rather than female marines.
How is she a female Marine? Does she have the Astartes keyword? ATSKNF? Chapter Tactics?
She's a high ranking Sister with great wargear. S/T5 comes from the suit and her spear does a lot of lifting in melee. She's just a souped up named Canonness in a warsuit with a nice pointy stick.
Stats and Wargear are very marine like, but that wasn't the point I was making, the special rules are basically marine special rules, specifically Bobby G, there's more nuance in sisters rules to do something more favourable that fits into their special rules rather than just re-doing the marine special rules on a different army (that then start to act more like marines also, castle up etc).
Speaking as a fluff bunny; Garbage fluffy rules are worth garbage.
Her rules need to add to the army in a way that makes sense and is useful. That's a hard thing to do, so as Supreme High Canoness she gets a really souped up versions of regular HQ abilities.
As powerful as she is, she probably still won't hit as hard as the other melee beatstick models out there. In return she gets a lot more survivability, and a pretty good buff. (Celestians were already getting full hit rerolls within 6" of a Canoness, after all.) I'm assuming that she won't benefit from <Order> keyword abilities. So yeah, she's meant to team up with a bodyguard of paragon suits or those shield Celestians and create a smash unit that won't immediately get slaughtered after its first melee combat phase.
Compared to daemon princes, redemptor dreads, flyrants, blight drones, Talos engines...her abilities just don't seem terribly shocking. And like everyone points out, it will really depend on her point cost.
Now narratively... The idea of the leader of the entire Adepta Sororitas organization is also going to be their most badass face-puncher, jetting around the galaxy getting into skirmishes with orks instead of doing her real job? That's fething stupid, but sadly is now the norm in our post-Guilliman-Heresy era of game lore.
Hankovitch wrote: As powerful as she is, she probably still won't hit as hard as the other melee beatstick models out there. In return she gets a lot more survivability, and a pretty good buff. (Celestians were already getting full hit rerolls within 6" of a Canoness, after all.) I'm assuming that she won't benefit from <Order> keyword abilities. So yeah, she's meant to team up with a bodyguard of paragon suits or those shield Celestians and create a smash unit that won't immediately get slaughtered after its first melee combat phase.
Compared to daemon princes, redemptor dreads, flyrants, blight drones, Talos engines...her abilities just don't seem terribly shocking. And like everyone points out, it will really depend on her point cost.
Now narratively... The idea of the leader of the entire Adepta Sororitas organization is also going to be their most badass face-puncher, jetting around the galaxy getting into skirmishes with orks instead of doing her real job? That's fething stupid, but sadly is now the norm in our post-Guilliman-Heresy era of game lore.
Yeah! It's as dumb as kings and queens appearing on battlefi- nevermind.
Lore until now has had the position vacant, it's not a position that can't have work delegated out or covered, she doesn't *need* to be in the office building.
I'm not sure comparing 40k to the real world is very useful one way or the other in terms of how it "should be," but rulers historically very rarely fought on the front lines, even if they were present in the general vicinity of the battle.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: It't not OP or any of these other accusations yet because as stated above, she could be perfectly costed for the ability.
What it is though is boring. Why are they making sisters female marines? Why is she capable of being a bobby G of sorts when sisters rules have so many other intereactions and nuances that she could compliment instead? How about every unit within 6" can use an act of faith in each phase.
Of course this is limited by the amount of miracle dice you have, but if you save them up through the game and she is still knocking around with a decent cohort in those later rounds, then the beta strike can be made. It's powerful but also favourable to the army rather than female marines.
How is she a female Marine? Does she have the Astartes keyword? ATSKNF? Chapter Tactics?
She's a high ranking Sister with great wargear. S/T5 comes from the suit and her spear does a lot of lifting in melee. She's just a souped up named Canonness in a warsuit with a nice pointy stick.
Stats and Wargear are very marine like, but that wasn't the point I was making, the special rules are basically marine special rules, specifically Bobby G, there's more nuance in sisters rules to do something more favourable that fits into their special rules rather than just re-doing the marine special rules on a different army (that then start to act more like marines also, castle up etc).
Canoness does the re-rolls to hit of 1 already, and we can bet money the Palatine does the re-roll to wounds of 1.
And if she got anything it'll likely be a bonus to Acts of Faith, or Faith Dice or something similar. That's the big Sisters mechanic after all.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hankovitch wrote: As powerful as she is, she probably still won't hit as hard as the other melee beatstick models out there. In return she gets a lot more survivability, and a pretty good buff. (Celestians were already getting full hit rerolls within 6" of a Canoness, after all.) I'm assuming that she won't benefit from <Order> keyword abilities. So yeah, she's meant to team up with a bodyguard of paragon suits or those shield Celestians and create a smash unit that won't immediately get slaughtered after its first melee combat phase.
Compared to daemon princes, redemptor dreads, flyrants, blight drones, Talos engines...her abilities just don't seem terribly shocking. And like everyone points out, it will really depend on her point cost.
Now narratively... The idea of the leader of the entire Adepta Sororitas organization is also going to be their most badass face-puncher, jetting around the galaxy getting into skirmishes with orks instead of doing her real job? That's fething stupid, but sadly is now the norm in our post-Guilliman-Heresy era of game lore.
Nah. Abbess usually make a pilgrimage before they can claim their seat from Terra to Ophelia VII and back again before they claim their high seat and we had rules for one in 2nd edition. Plus martyrdom is a major theme for the faction. If she dies on the battle field in the Emperor's name then she's an example to all others in the Sisterhood.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: It't not OP or any of these other accusations yet because as stated above, she could be perfectly costed for the ability.
What it is though is boring. Why are they making sisters female marines? Why is she capable of being a bobby G of sorts when sisters rules have so many other intereactions and nuances that she could compliment instead? How about every unit within 6" can use an act of faith in each phase.
Of course this is limited by the amount of miracle dice you have, but if you save them up through the game and she is still knocking around with a decent cohort in those later rounds, then the beta strike can be made. It's powerful but also favourable to the army rather than female marines.
How is she a female Marine? Does she have the Astartes keyword? ATSKNF? Chapter Tactics?
She's a high ranking Sister with great wargear. S/T5 comes from the suit and her spear does a lot of lifting in melee. She's just a souped up named Canonness in a warsuit with a nice pointy stick.
Stats and Wargear are very marine like, but that wasn't the point I was making, the special rules are basically marine special rules, specifically Bobby G, there's more nuance in sisters rules to do something more favourable that fits into their special rules rather than just re-doing the marine special rules on a different army (that then start to act more like marines also, castle up etc).
Canoness does the re-rolls to hit of 1 already, and we can bet money the Palatine does the re-roll to wounds of 1.
And if she got anything it'll likely be a bonus to Acts of Faith, or Faith Dice or something similar. That's the big Sisters mechanic after all.
It's such a Sisters mecanic there are is already a named character and a slew of unnamed characters/models that do that. None of which feature in most lists.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: It't not OP or any of these other accusations yet because as stated above, she could be perfectly costed for the ability.
What it is though is boring. Why are they making sisters female marines? Why is she capable of being a bobby G of sorts when sisters rules have so many other intereactions and nuances that she could compliment instead? How about every unit within 6" can use an act of faith in each phase.
Of course this is limited by the amount of miracle dice you have, but if you save them up through the game and she is still knocking around with a decent cohort in those later rounds, then the beta strike can be made. It's powerful but also favourable to the army rather than female marines.
How is she a female Marine? Does she have the Astartes keyword? ATSKNF? Chapter Tactics?
She's a high ranking Sister with great wargear. S/T5 comes from the suit and her spear does a lot of lifting in melee. She's just a souped up named Canonness in a warsuit with a nice pointy stick.
Stats and Wargear are very marine like, but that wasn't the point I was making, the special rules are basically marine special rules, specifically Bobby G, there's more nuance in sisters rules to do something more favourable that fits into their special rules rather than just re-doing the marine special rules on a different army (that then start to act more like marines also, castle up etc).
Canoness does the re-rolls to hit of 1 already, and we can bet money the Palatine does the re-roll to wounds of 1.
And if she got anything it'll likely be a bonus to Acts of Faith, or Faith Dice or something similar. That's the big Sisters mechanic after all.
It's such a Sisters mecanic there are is already a named character and a slew of unnamed characters/models that do that. None of which feature in most lists.
If by named character you mean the Hover Pulpit, she is faction locked to the faction that generates bonus Faith dice as a mechanic. Everyone is more for Bloody Rose though because it lets the army (mainly Repentia) blend better and hard hitting melee is strong in this edition.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: It't not OP or any of these other accusations yet because as stated above, she could be perfectly costed for the ability.
What it is though is boring. Why are they making sisters female marines? Why is she capable of being a bobby G of sorts when sisters rules have so many other intereactions and nuances that she could compliment instead? How about every unit within 6" can use an act of faith in each phase.
Of course this is limited by the amount of miracle dice you have, but if you save them up through the game and she is still knocking around with a decent cohort in those later rounds, then the beta strike can be made. It's powerful but also favourable to the army rather than female marines.
How is she a female Marine? Does she have the Astartes keyword? ATSKNF? Chapter Tactics?
She's a high ranking Sister with great wargear. S/T5 comes from the suit and her spear does a lot of lifting in melee. She's just a souped up named Canonness in a warsuit with a nice pointy stick.
Stats and Wargear are very marine like, but that wasn't the point I was making, the special rules are basically marine special rules, specifically Bobby G, there's more nuance in sisters rules to do something more favourable that fits into their special rules rather than just re-doing the marine special rules on a different army (that then start to act more like marines also, castle up etc).
Canoness does the re-rolls to hit of 1 already, and we can bet money the Palatine does the re-roll to wounds of 1.
And if she got anything it'll likely be a bonus to Acts of Faith, or Faith Dice or something similar. That's the big Sisters mechanic after all.
It's such a Sisters mecanic there are is already a named character and a slew of unnamed characters/models that do that. None of which feature in most lists.
Named character is faction locked to the faction that generates bonus Faith dice as a mechanic. Everyone is more for Bloody Rose though because it lets the army (mainly Repentia) blend better and hard hitting melee is strong in this edition.
Umm... no. Triumph isn't faction locked. I think we may have crossed wires...
endlesswaltz123 wrote: It't not OP or any of these other accusations yet because as stated above, she could be perfectly costed for the ability.
What it is though is boring. Why are they making sisters female marines? Why is she capable of being a bobby G of sorts when sisters rules have so many other intereactions and nuances that she could compliment instead? How about every unit within 6" can use an act of faith in each phase.
Of course this is limited by the amount of miracle dice you have, but if you save them up through the game and she is still knocking around with a decent cohort in those later rounds, then the beta strike can be made. It's powerful but also favourable to the army rather than female marines.
How is she a female Marine? Does she have the Astartes keyword? ATSKNF? Chapter Tactics?
She's a high ranking Sister with great wargear. S/T5 comes from the suit and her spear does a lot of lifting in melee. She's just a souped up named Canonness in a warsuit with a nice pointy stick.
Stats and Wargear are very marine like, but that wasn't the point I was making, the special rules are basically marine special rules, specifically Bobby G, there's more nuance in sisters rules to do something more favourable that fits into their special rules rather than just re-doing the marine special rules on a different army (that then start to act more like marines also, castle up etc).
Canoness does the re-rolls to hit of 1 already, and we can bet money the Palatine does the re-roll to wounds of 1.
And if she got anything it'll likely be a bonus to Acts of Faith, or Faith Dice or something similar. That's the big Sisters mechanic after all.
It's such a Sisters mecanic there are is already a named character and a slew of unnamed characters/models that do that. None of which feature in most lists.
Named character is faction locked to the faction that generates bonus Faith dice as a mechanic. Everyone is more for Bloody Rose though because it lets the army (mainly Repentia) blend better and hard hitting melee is strong in this edition.
Umm... no. Triumph isn't faction locked. I think we may have crossed wires...
I thought you were talking about Junith, but she gives rerolls to OoML:
Fiery Conviction: Re-roll hit rolls of 1 and wound rolls of 1 for attacks made by models in friendly ORDER OF OUR MARTYRED LADY units whilst their unit is within 6" of this model.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: It't not OP or any of these other accusations yet because as stated above, she could be perfectly costed for the ability.
What it is though is boring. Why are they making sisters female marines? Why is she capable of being a bobby G of sorts when sisters rules have so many other intereactions and nuances that she could compliment instead? How about every unit within 6" can use an act of faith in each phase.
Of course this is limited by the amount of miracle dice you have, but if you save them up through the game and she is still knocking around with a decent cohort in those later rounds, then the beta strike can be made. It's powerful but also favourable to the army rather than female marines.
How is she a female Marine? Does she have the Astartes keyword? ATSKNF? Chapter Tactics?
She's a high ranking Sister with great wargear. S/T5 comes from the suit and her spear does a lot of lifting in melee. She's just a souped up named Canonness in a warsuit with a nice pointy stick.
Stats and Wargear are very marine like, but that wasn't the point I was making, the special rules are basically marine special rules, specifically Bobby G, there's more nuance in sisters rules to do something more favourable that fits into their special rules rather than just re-doing the marine special rules on a different army (that then start to act more like marines also, castle up etc).
Canoness does the re-rolls to hit of 1 already, and we can bet money the Palatine does the re-roll to wounds of 1.
And if she got anything it'll likely be a bonus to Acts of Faith, or Faith Dice or something similar. That's the big Sisters mechanic after all.
It's such a Sisters mecanic there are is already a named character and a slew of unnamed characters/models that do that. None of which feature in most lists.
Named character is faction locked to the faction that generates bonus Faith dice as a mechanic. Everyone is more for Bloody Rose though because it lets the army (mainly Repentia) blend better and hard hitting melee is strong in this edition.
Umm... no. Triumph isn't faction locked. I think we may have crossed wires...
I thought you were talking about Junith, but she gives rerolls to OoML:
Fiery Conviction: Re-roll hit rolls of 1 and wound rolls of 1 for attacks made by models in friendly ORDER OF OUR MARTYRED LADY units whilst their unit is within 6" of this model.
Sorry, in hindsight I should've been clearer. It was a response to the 'give sisters more MD stuff instead of this' that was suppose to point out that Sisters already have MD stuff we aren't using. We dont need more...
I don't see why people here are arguing to have her buff acts of faith or stuff like that.
That would be dumb. Like very very dumb. It would make her into a saintly figure, which she is not.
She is literally just a random canoness which was elevated to Lord of Terra for political reasons. She does exactly what other Canonesses do, except that she has an overwhelming autority given by her position. She doesn't boost faith like a procession of relics or a living saint. She doesn't hand out invulnerable saves.
She is just a random canoness in a big suit with a big weapon with a lot of autority.
Adding any buff related to faith or stuff like that would completely break her character, and THAT would be hero creep.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for the stats... she is a venerable dreadnaught in both melee and shooting output. Is that really broken for a model which is likely to be costed in the 300+ realm? Not to mention that she is VERY easy to kill in melee.
Spoletta wrote: As for the stats... she is a venerable dreadnaught in both melee and shooting output. Is that really broken for a model which is likely to be costed in the 300+ realm?
Not to mention that she is VERY easy to kill in melee.
Very easy to kill?
32 hits(not attacks) from powerfist not enough.
24 hits from flat 3 damage power fist is needed to kill.
Shows how nutty 40k has gone if that's easy to kill.
10 Damage 1 attacks or 5 damage 3 attacks in close combat is a pretty sub-optimal build for a 60 point Succubus these days, lol.
That said, I am not really concerned about the characters.
It's basic battle sisters they need to up. If your basic Wych throws out 4 attacks, hitting on 2s on Ap -1 / -2 before any drugs or even choosing an Obsession, a more expensive Battle Sisters before Orders/Faith-stuff doing a single attack on 4+ with no AP is just ridiculous.
Spoletta wrote: As for the stats... she is a venerable dreadnaught in both melee and shooting output. Is that really broken for a model which is likely to be costed in the 300+ realm?
Not to mention that she is VERY easy to kill in melee.
Very easy to kill?
32 hits(not attacks) from powerfist not enough.
24 hits from flat 3 damage power fist is needed to kill.
Shows how nutty 40k has gone if that's easy to kill.
No it's your math that has become nutty.
12 damage 3 hits kill her. 8 wound, 4 pass through -> 8 damage.
10 if they come from strenght 10.
She is about as hard to kill in melee as a Plague Marine 6 man squad, and for a (supposedly) 300 point beatstick, that's quite bad.
She is a model on the level of Ghaz or a C'than and among those she is without a doubt the easiest to kill in melee.
Dedicated MSU melee units can one round this model.
Sunny Side Up wrote: 10 Damage 1 attacks or 5 damage 3 attacks in close combat is a pretty sub-optimal build for a 60 point Succubus these days, lol.
That said, I am not really concerned about the characters.
It's basic battle sisters they need to up. If your basic Wych throws out 4 attacks, hitting on 2s on Ap -1 / -2 before any drugs or even choosing an Obsession, a more expensive Battle Sisters before Orders/Faith-stuff doing a single attack on 4+ with no AP is just ridiculous.
Sunny Side Up wrote: 10 Damage 1 attacks or 5 damage 3 attacks in close combat is a pretty sub-optimal build for a 60 point Succubus these days, lol.
That said, I am not really concerned about the characters.
It's basic battle sisters they need to up. If your basic Wych throws out 4 attacks, hitting on 2s on Ap -1 / -2 before any drugs or even choosing an Obsession, a more expensive Battle Sisters before Orders/Faith-stuff doing a single attack on 4+ with no AP is just ridiculous.
Curious, I don't remember basic wytches having a 3+ armor, bolters, grenades, pistols and being able to carry special and heavy ranged weapons. Also, basic Wytches hit on 3+.
Basic sisters are fine like they are. Let's not ask for power creep thanks.
How about you try to build an army with her once the codex is there ? We'll then see how good she really is...and if it doesn't cripple the rest by being too expensive.
But for that, you have to wait for the full rules and point costs to come.
Until then, hyperboles will keep being hyperboles. Even more useless when it's done litterally for nothing, since we can't play her right now.
The whole suit just doesn't do it for me personally just on appearances alone. I find it also a bit ridiculous for a High Lord to be on the battlefield.
I think it would be darkly humorous if she gets charged for dereliction of a High Lord's duties. A High Lord can do the most good for the Imperium role by trying to steer and streamline (ha!) the bureaucracy, not by pulping random cultists or Orks.
Spoletta wrote: As for the stats... she is a venerable dreadnaught in both melee and shooting output. Is that really broken for a model which is likely to be costed in the 300+ realm?
Not to mention that she is VERY easy to kill in melee.
Very easy to kill?
32 hits(not attacks) from powerfist not enough.
24 hits from flat 3 damage power fist is needed to kill.
Shows how nutty 40k has gone if that's easy to kill.
No it's your math that has become nutty.
12 damage 3 hits kill her. 8 wound, 4 pass through -> 8 damage.
10 if they come from strenght 10.
She is about as hard to kill in melee as a Plague Marine 6 man squad, and for a (supposedly) 300 point beatstick, that's quite bad.
She is a model on the level of Ghaz or a C'than and among those she is without a doubt the easiest to kill in melee.
Dedicated MSU melee units can one round this model.
She is more comparable to a Lord of Contagion with 2 wounds more in a defensive profile. If theres a problem with this girl is not how hard she is in meele.
Iracundus wrote: The whole suit just doesn't do it for me personally just on appearances alone. I find it also a bit ridiculous for a High Lord to be on the battlefield.
I think it would be darkly humorous if she gets charged for dereliction of a High Lord's duties. A High Lord can do the most good for the Imperium role by trying to steer and streamline (ha!) the bureaucracy, not by pulping random cultists or Orks.
They said she's a High Lord because of Roboute Guilliman. It's clear she's not a "regular High Lord of Terra", if such a thing does exist. Reason she went on Crusade with blessing of Roboute will certainly be explained in more details in the codex / Charadon book of fire.
Iracundus wrote: The whole suit just doesn't do it for me personally just on appearances alone. I find it also a bit ridiculous for a High Lord to be on the battlefield.
I think it would be darkly humorous if she gets charged for dereliction of a High Lord's duties. A High Lord can do the most good for the Imperium role by trying to steer and streamline (ha!) the bureaucracy, not by pulping random cultists or Orks.
They said she's a High Lord because of Roboute Guilliman. It's clear she's not a "regular High Lord of Terra", if such a thing does exist. Reason she went on Crusade with blessing of Roboute will certainly be explained in more details in the codex / Charadon book of fire.
I'd quite like if it they let slip that Roboute picks suicidal crusading fundamentalists for senior ecclesiarchy positions because they have a life expectancy of three weeks, and therefore can never build up too much of a power base or following that might prove inconvenient.
Iracundus wrote: The whole suit just doesn't do it for me personally just on appearances alone. I find it also a bit ridiculous for a High Lord to be on the battlefield.
I think it would be darkly humorous if she gets charged for dereliction of a High Lord's duties. A High Lord can do the most good for the Imperium role by trying to steer and streamline (ha!) the bureaucracy, not by pulping random cultists or Orks.
Which is and was true for every sufficiently high authority for all armies in 40K since they show up. There's no reason Eldrad or Aun'va or the Silent King or Mortarion or any Chapter Master or even a random GSC Patriarch would ever go into a fight of a few dozens or so soldiers fighting over a roughly 150 feet by 100 feet patch of battleground somewhere.
Iracundus wrote: The whole suit just doesn't do it for me personally just on appearances alone. I find it also a bit ridiculous for a High Lord to be on the battlefield.
I think it would be darkly humorous if she gets charged for dereliction of a High Lord's duties. A High Lord can do the most good for the Imperium role by trying to steer and streamline (ha!) the bureaucracy, not by pulping random cultists or Orks.
Which is and was true for every sufficiently high authority for all armies in 40K since they show up. There's no reason Eldrad or Aun'va or the Silent King or Mortarion or any Chapter Master or even a random GSC Patriarch would ever go into a fight of a few dozens or so soldiers fighting over a roughly 150 feet by 100 feet patch of battleground somewhere.
This always irked me to no end, and is the reason why I always avoid any kind of unique/named char.
It even bothers me that the tyranids have "artifacts". I play bugs because they are 100% anonimous and would love if OOE became just an alpha strain of fex, same for Red Terror or Death Leaper. Unique things have no place in the bug's faction.
Sarouan wrote: They said she's a High Lord because of Roboute Guilliman. It's clear she's not a "regular High Lord of Terra", if such a thing does exist.
By the (old) fluff the most senior member of the sororitas holds one of the non-permanent seats of the high lords (whereas individuals such as the fabricator general always have a seat at the table).
The sisters had been voluntarily leaving the position vacant since the disappearance of it's previous holder, with the Ecclesiarch representing their interests at the top table.
Iracundus wrote: The whole suit just doesn't do it for me personally just on appearances alone. I find it also a bit ridiculous for a High Lord to be on the battlefield.
I think it would be darkly humorous if she gets charged for dereliction of a High Lord's duties. A High Lord can do the most good for the Imperium role by trying to steer and streamline (ha!) the bureaucracy, not by pulping random cultists or Orks.
Guilliman is a High Lord and he gets to stomp around on the table.
Sarouan wrote: They said she's a High Lord because of Roboute Guilliman. It's clear she's not a "regular High Lord of Terra", if such a thing does exist.
By the (old) fluff the most senior member of the sororitas holds one of the non-permanent seats of the high lords (whereas individuals such as the fabricator general always have a seat at the table).
The sisters had been voluntarily leaving the position vacant since the disappearance of it's previous holder, with the Ecclesiarch representing their interests at the top table.
Yep, but since the old fluff, Guilliman happened and he was already clear he's not interested into maintaining the status quo if it makes no sense for his plans.
Also, the other High Lords know pretty much they can't stand in the way of a resurrected Primarch.
So Roboute decided to change that, clearly. And the others nodded, because that's what they can only do.
Iracundus wrote: The whole suit just doesn't do it for me personally just on appearances alone. I find it also a bit ridiculous for a High Lord to be on the battlefield.
I think it would be darkly humorous if she gets charged for dereliction of a High Lord's duties. A High Lord can do the most good for the Imperium role by trying to steer and streamline (ha!) the bureaucracy, not by pulping random cultists or Orks.
Which is and was true for every sufficiently high authority for all armies in 40K since they show up. There's no reason Eldrad or Aun'va or the Silent King or Mortarion or any Chapter Master or even a random GSC Patriarch would ever go into a fight of a few dozens or so soldiers fighting over a roughly 150 feet by 100 feet patch of battleground somewhere.
This always irked me to no end, and is the reason why I always avoid any kind of unique/named char.
It even bothers me that the tyranids have "artifacts". I play bugs because they are 100% anonimous and would love if OOE became just an alpha strain of fex, same for Red Terror or Death Leaper. Unique things have no place in the bug's faction.
Yes, I understand that feeling. But on the other hand, the purpose of making miniatures for a game is to use them in that said game.
There are plenty of justifications for their presence at the head of such a "small army". The core book offers a few of them (like the game is just a window at the most crucial part of a bigger engagement, with the supreme commander and its personnal guard while the (bigger) rest of his army is busy on other fronts).
It's really just a matter of how you see it. Doesn't have to be always litteral.
Iracundus wrote: The whole suit just doesn't do it for me personally just on appearances alone. I find it also a bit ridiculous for a High Lord to be on the battlefield.
I think it would be darkly humorous if she gets charged for dereliction of a High Lord's duties. A High Lord can do the most good for the Imperium role by trying to steer and streamline (ha!) the bureaucracy, not by pulping random cultists or Orks.
I like how people are apparently unaware most High Lords don't bother attending proceedings at all (because these are long, boring, and mostly pointless) and just send a representative, only appearing if there is a crisis or something. Fabricator General is High Lord, too, while never leaving Mars - I guess they also fail their duty? Or that Admiral dude in Beast series who also took to the battlefield - or is it just Sisters, because reasons?
Sarouan wrote: They said she's a High Lord because of Roboute Guilliman. It's clear she's not a "regular High Lord of Terra", if such a thing does exist.
By the (old) fluff the most senior member of the sororitas holds one of the non-permanent seats of the high lords (whereas individuals such as the fabricator general always have a seat at the table).
The sisters had been voluntarily leaving the position vacant since the disappearance of it's previous holder, with the Ecclesiarch representing their interests at the top table.
Yep, but since the old fluff, Guilliman happened and he was already clear he's not interested into maintaining the status quo if it makes no sense for his plans.
Also, the other High Lords know pretty much they can't stand in the way of a resurrected Primarch.
So Roboute decided to change that, clearly. And the others nodded, because that's what they can only do.
Iracundus wrote: The whole suit just doesn't do it for me personally just on appearances alone. I find it also a bit ridiculous for a High Lord to be on the battlefield.
I think it would be darkly humorous if she gets charged for dereliction of a High Lord's duties. A High Lord can do the most good for the Imperium role by trying to steer and streamline (ha!) the bureaucracy, not by pulping random cultists or Orks.
Which is and was true for every sufficiently high authority for all armies in 40K since they show up. There's no reason Eldrad or Aun'va or the Silent King or Mortarion or any Chapter Master or even a random GSC Patriarch would ever go into a fight of a few dozens or so soldiers fighting over a roughly 150 feet by 100 feet patch of battleground somewhere.
This always irked me to no end, and is the reason why I always avoid any kind of unique/named char.
It even bothers me that the tyranids have "artifacts". I play bugs because they are 100% anonimous and would love if OOE became just an alpha strain of fex, same for Red Terror or Death Leaper. Unique things have no place in the bug's faction.
Yes, I understand that feeling. But on the other hand, the purpose of making miniatures for a game is to use them in that said game.
There are plenty of justifications for their presence at the head of such a "small army". The core book offers a few of them (like the game is just a window at the most crucial part of a bigger engagement, with the supreme commander and its personnal guard while the (bigger) rest of his army is busy on other fronts).
It's really just a matter of how you see it. Doesn't have to be always litteral.
This times a billion. I find it humorous that people "hate" and "despise" things like Guilleman and the Silent King, while I'm over here having an amazing time painting them and enjoying looking at them when finished. If you don't want to use them in your game, then don't, but don't be a baby about other people enjoying their toys.
Rihgu wrote: Since when have the High Lords been looking out for what's "most good" for the Imperium, anyways?
Since the return of Guilliman and making 40K noblebright.
It's not noblebright. The point of someone like Guilliman existing is to provide contrast that makes the horror stand out stronger. To give an example: if you stand in the woods in the middle of the night your eyes adjust, but if you have a light source your eyes only adjust to that light making the shadows stronger and limiting your ability to truly look into the darkness. Adding something like Guilliman who provides hope to the Imperium does that as well. It keeps us from being too adjusted to the grimdark so the dark doesn't lose its punch. It gives us a person who isn't used to the modern setting to connect with and say with them "wow, this is really messed up" instead of quietly accepting it like the normal stories have us do.
Rihgu wrote: Since when have the High Lords been looking out for what's "most good" for the Imperium, anyways?
Since the return of Guilliman and making 40K noblebright.
It's not noblebright. The point of someone like Guilliman existing is to provide contrast that makes the horror stand out stronger. To give an example: if you stand in the woods in the middle of the night your eyes adjust, but if you have a light source your eyes only adjust to that light making the shadows stronger and limiting your ability to truly look into the darkness. Adding something like Guilliman who provides hope to the Imperium does that as well. It keeps us from being too adjusted to the grimdark so the dark doesn't lose its punch. It gives us a person who isn't used to the modern setting to connect with and say with them "wow, this is really messed up" instead of quietly accepting it like the normal stories have us do.
And that person is a powerful demigod and the de facto leader of imperium. Sorry but no. If you have demigod good guy as the leader of Imperium, you have noblebright with some cosmetic grimdark trappings and I'm not interested in that.
Rihgu wrote: Since when have the High Lords been looking out for what's "most good" for the Imperium, anyways?
Since the return of Guilliman and making 40K noblebright.
It's not noblebright. The point of someone like Guilliman existing is to provide contrast that makes the horror stand out stronger. To give an example: if you stand in the woods in the middle of the night your eyes adjust, but if you have a light source your eyes only adjust to that light making the shadows stronger and limiting your ability to truly look into the darkness. Adding something like Guilliman who provides hope to the Imperium does that as well. It keeps us from being too adjusted to the grimdark so the dark doesn't lose its punch. It gives us a person who isn't used to the modern setting to connect with and say with them "wow, this is really messed up" instead of quietly accepting it like the normal stories have us do.
And that person is a powerful demigod and the de facto leader of imperium. Sorry but no. If you have demigod good guy as the leader of Imperium, you have noblebright with some cosmetic grimdark trappings and I'm not interested in that.
And even with all that he's plagued by insominia, is being so stressed he's starting to have grey hairs in his temples and had to declare the Indomitus Crusade a success for a moral victory despite the fact it didn't win anything, merely reinforced the front lines.
He's a demigod but he's being pushed to his breaking point at every turn. But you're too focused on his title to notice the load he's carrying I guess.
Rihgu wrote: Since when have the High Lords been looking out for what's "most good" for the Imperium, anyways?
Since the return of Guilliman and making 40K noblebright.
It's not noblebright. The point of someone like Guilliman existing is to provide contrast that makes the horror stand out stronger. To give an example: if you stand in the woods in the middle of the night your eyes adjust, but if you have a light source your eyes only adjust to that light making the shadows stronger and limiting your ability to truly look into the darkness. Adding something like Guilliman who provides hope to the Imperium does that as well. It keeps us from being too adjusted to the grimdark so the dark doesn't lose its punch. It gives us a person who isn't used to the modern setting to connect with and say with them "wow, this is really messed up" instead of quietly accepting it like the normal stories have us do.
And that person is a powerful demigod and the de facto leader of imperium. Sorry but no. If you have demigod good guy as the leader of Imperium, you have noblebright with some cosmetic grimdark trappings and I'm not interested in that.
And even with all that he's plagued by insominia, is being so stressed he's starting to have grey hairs in his temples and had to declare the Indomitus Crusade a success for a moral victory despite the fact it didn't win anything, merely reinforced the front lines.
He's a demigod but he's being pushed to his breaking point at every turn. But you're too focused on his title to notice the load he's carrying I guess.
Grey hairs and insomnia do not a grimdark make. He's a WoW paladin inserted into 40k. It's as if Battlefront Games released Hercules in Flames of War. Crimson is right.
ClockworkZion wrote: And if she got anything it'll likely be a bonus to Acts of Faith, or Faith Dice or something similar. That's the big Sisters mechanic after all.
It's such a Sisters mecanic there are is already a named character and a slew of unnamed characters/models that do that. None of which feature in most lists.
Named character is faction locked to the faction that generates bonus Faith dice as a mechanic. Everyone is more for Bloody Rose though because it lets the army (mainly Repentia) blend better and hard hitting melee is strong in this edition.
Umm... no. Triumph isn't faction locked. I think we may have crossed wires...
I thought you were talking about Junith, but she gives rerolls to OoML:
Fiery Conviction: Re-roll hit rolls of 1 and wound rolls of 1 for attacks made by models in friendly ORDER OF OUR MARTYRED LADY units whilst their unit is within 6" of this model.
Which really just points out the real disappointment I have with the special character reveals we've got -- 9th edition is going to continue the intra-faction unit imbalance where non-OML orders don't even know who their Cannoness Supreme is, much less have rules to field them. Like, if they're going to insist on giving us named characters (instead of, I don't know, a generic jump-palatine or something), *I'd* be much more interested in a set of named characters to flesh out the other orders and give GW balancing levers to make, say, Ebon Chalice, Sacred Rose, and to maybe a lesser extent Argent Shroud more appealing by giving them badass or synergistically buffing named heads of their Orders to make up for underwhelming Order Convictions, and fluffy but relatively tame heads of Bloody Rose and Valorous Heart heads because they don't need the help. But instead of those 5 named characters, we get two gussied up banner bearers and a likely Lord of War that is only reasonable to field in games much larger than I care about. Who are great models, for sure, but much less thematically interesting to me than really helping to stake out individual orders' character more by spotlighting some of their important personalities.
Rihgu wrote: Since when have the High Lords been looking out for what's "most good" for the Imperium, anyways?
Since the return of Guilliman and making 40K noblebright.
It's not noblebright. The point of someone like Guilliman existing is to provide contrast that makes the horror stand out stronger. To give an example: if you stand in the woods in the middle of the night your eyes adjust, but if you have a light source your eyes only adjust to that light making the shadows stronger and limiting your ability to truly look into the darkness. Adding something like Guilliman who provides hope to the Imperium does that as well. It keeps us from being too adjusted to the grimdark so the dark doesn't lose its punch. It gives us a person who isn't used to the modern setting to connect with and say with them "wow, this is really messed up" instead of quietly accepting it like the normal stories have us do.
And that person is a powerful demigod and the de facto leader of imperium. Sorry but no. If you have demigod good guy as the leader of Imperium, you have noblebright with some cosmetic grimdark trappings and I'm not interested in that.
And even with all that he's plagued by insominia, is being so stressed he's starting to have grey hairs in his temples and had to declare the Indomitus Crusade a success for a moral victory despite the fact it didn't win anything, merely reinforced the front lines.
He's a demigod but he's being pushed to his breaking point at every turn. But you're too focused on his title to notice the load he's carrying I guess.
Grey hairs and insomnia do not a grimdark make. He's a WoW paladin inserted into 40k. It's as if Battlefront Games released Hercules in Flames of War. Crimson is right.
Pft. He's a Horus Heresy character inserted into 40k, not a WoW character. I love the level of maturity here to immediately start strawmanning things that aren't pizza cutter levels of dark and edgy.
ClockworkZion wrote: And if she got anything it'll likely be a bonus to Acts of Faith, or Faith Dice or something similar. That's the big Sisters mechanic after all.
It's such a Sisters mecanic there are is already a named character and a slew of unnamed characters/models that do that. None of which feature in most lists.
Named character is faction locked to the faction that generates bonus Faith dice as a mechanic. Everyone is more for Bloody Rose though because it lets the army (mainly Repentia) blend better and hard hitting melee is strong in this edition.
Umm... no. Triumph isn't faction locked. I think we may have crossed wires...
I thought you were talking about Junith, but she gives rerolls to OoML:
Fiery Conviction: Re-roll hit rolls of 1 and wound rolls of 1 for attacks made by models in friendly ORDER OF OUR MARTYRED LADY units whilst their unit is within 6" of this model.
Which really just points out the real disappointment I have with the special character reveals we've got -- 9th edition is going to continue the intra-faction unit imbalance where non-OML orders don't even know who their Cannoness Supreme is, much less have rules to field them. Like, if they're going to insist on giving us named characters (instead of, I don't know, a generic jump-palatine or something), *I'd* be much more interested in a set of named characters to flesh out the other orders and give GW balancing levers to make, say, Ebon Chalice, Sacred Rose, and to maybe a lesser extent Argent Shroud more appealing by giving them badass or synergistically buffing named heads of their Orders to make up for underwhelming Order Convictions, and fluffy but relatively tame heads of Bloody Rose and Valorous Heart heads because they don't need the help. But instead of those 5 named characters, we get two gussied up banner bearers and a likely Lord of War that is only reasonable to field in games much larger than I care about. Who are great models, for sure, but much less thematically interesting to me than really helping to stake out individual orders' character more by spotlighting some of their important personalities.
I'm with you that it'd be nice to get 5 more Canoness characters, but I'll take what I can get. I mean had an Abbess in 2nd, then lost her, and now we have a new one.
Rihgu wrote: Since when have the High Lords been looking out for what's "most good" for the Imperium, anyways?
Since the return of Guilliman and making 40K noblebright.
It's not noblebright. The point of someone like Guilliman existing is to provide contrast that makes the horror stand out stronger. To give an example: if you stand in the woods in the middle of the night your eyes adjust, but if you have a light source your eyes only adjust to that light making the shadows stronger and limiting your ability to truly look into the darkness. Adding something like Guilliman who provides hope to the Imperium does that as well. It keeps us from being too adjusted to the grimdark so the dark doesn't lose its punch. It gives us a person who isn't used to the modern setting to connect with and say with them "wow, this is really messed up" instead of quietly accepting it like the normal stories have us do.
And that person is a powerful demigod and the de facto leader of imperium. Sorry but no. If you have demigod good guy as the leader of Imperium, you have noblebright with some cosmetic grimdark trappings and I'm not interested in that.
And even with all that he's plagued by insominia, is being so stressed he's starting to have grey hairs in his temples and had to declare the Indomitus Crusade a success for a moral victory despite the fact it didn't win anything, merely reinforced the front lines.
He's a demigod but he's being pushed to his breaking point at every turn. But you're too focused on his title to notice the load he's carrying I guess.
Grey hairs and insomnia do not a grimdark make. He's a WoW paladin inserted into 40k. It's as if Battlefront Games released Hercules in Flames of War. Crimson is right.
Pft. He's a Horus Heresy character inserted into 40k, not a WoW character. I love the level of maturity here to immediately start strawmanning things that aren't pizza cutter levels of dark and edgy.
ClockworkZion wrote: And if she got anything it'll likely be a bonus to Acts of Faith, or Faith Dice or something similar. That's the big Sisters mechanic after all.
It's such a Sisters mecanic there are is already a named character and a slew of unnamed characters/models that do that. None of which feature in most lists.
Named character is faction locked to the faction that generates bonus Faith dice as a mechanic. Everyone is more for Bloody Rose though because it lets the army (mainly Repentia) blend better and hard hitting melee is strong in this edition.
Umm... no. Triumph isn't faction locked. I think we may have crossed wires...
I thought you were talking about Junith, but she gives rerolls to OoML:
Fiery Conviction: Re-roll hit rolls of 1 and wound rolls of 1 for attacks made by models in friendly ORDER OF OUR MARTYRED LADY units whilst their unit is within 6" of this model.
Which really just points out the real disappointment I have with the special character reveals we've got -- 9th edition is going to continue the intra-faction unit imbalance where non-OML orders don't even know who their Cannoness Supreme is, much less have rules to field them. Like, if they're going to insist on giving us named characters (instead of, I don't know, a generic jump-palatine or something), *I'd* be much more interested in a set of named characters to flesh out the other orders and give GW balancing levers to make, say, Ebon Chalice, Sacred Rose, and to maybe a lesser extent Argent Shroud more appealing by giving them badass or synergistically buffing named heads of their Orders to make up for underwhelming Order Convictions, and fluffy but relatively tame heads of Bloody Rose and Valorous Heart heads because they don't need the help. But instead of those 5 named characters, we get two gussied up banner bearers and a likely Lord of War that is only reasonable to field in games much larger than I care about. Who are great models, for sure, but much less thematically interesting to me than really helping to stake out individual orders' character more by spotlighting some of their important personalities.
I'm with you that it'd be nice to get 5 more Canoness characters, but I'll take what I can get. I mean had an Abbess in 2nd, then lost her, and now we have a new one.
I see your point and you are actually right in the proper official 40k fluff and interpretation of those events.
But is true that GW is marketing 40k as a much more palatable product in this past years, more heroic and the imperium much more as the good guys with less emphasis in how crazy they are outside stuff like Necromunda.
I have no problem with that, and TBH, people have such a absurd hard on about how grimdark is sacred and all mighty when warhammer has been grimdark far less than it has been silly and colorfull. And I'll add that my favourite "version" of all warhammers are the grimdark ones.
In Fantasy the "grimdarkess", for example, lasted from 6th to the end of 7th. Warhammer Fantasy from 1st to 5th was full of heroic colors and sillyness, and we all know Age of Sigmar. But as many, many people here started with 6th Fantasy, for them is the "golden age". And I'll say again, my favourite period of Warhammer Fantasy is the narrative of the storm of chaos and 6th edition, but people is too fast to lose perspective and believe THATS the ONLY AND TRUE WARHAMMER and everything else is crap.
And the same applies to warhammer 40k.
But personally I don't like loyalist primarchs returning, I loathe them as characters.
And I like the grimdark, but without contrast it lacks punch. You need to set people up to fail for the failure to have impact, otherwise the story has no dramatic tension.
Heck, in this supposed "noblebright" setting Chaos is more of a threat than they ever where before. I fail to understand how a flickering candlelight changes the whole setting to being "noblebright" instead of providing contrast to sell the horror better.
But in fact it doesn't provide contrast. It could, but it doesn't.
In reality, Gulliman turns the whole story into some weird Make the Imperium Great Again story complete with a heroic outsider fighting an entrenched Deep State that is conveniently blamed for the polity's degeneration, when in fact, the Imperium was never great to begin with unless you retcon 40 years of 40k history.
Modern 40k is retconning the foundational terribleness of the Imperium and instead substituting a story about renewal and bringing back the good old days by kicking out the bureaucrats, which completely undermines the original point of the setting. It's especially weird because HH itself is very much the opposite, and has spent a lot of time spinning out just how bad the Imperium actually was from its very founding, and how the Heresy itself was basically a big avoidable own-goal by a ruthless despot and his incompetent man-child generals.
The imperium before Gman: Sieged on all fronts. Warcrimes and slaughters being common sight. No hopes of winning.
The imperium after Gman: Sieged on fronts that they didn't even thougth they could be defined as fronts. Warcrimes and slaughters still being a common sight. Even less hopes of winning.
Spoletta wrote: The imperium before Gman: Sieged on all fronts. Warcrimes and slaughters being common sight. No hopes of winning.
The imperium after Gman: Sieged on fronts that they didn't even thougth they could be defined as fronts. Warcrimes and slaughters still being a common sight. Even less hopes of winning.
Yeah, such a huge shake in the setting.
Even less hope of winning, but the Imperium are able to rise more armies, build more ships, wage war on more fronts than ever before.
Even less hope of winning, but every Marine Chapter gets rescued and reinforced with even better Marines.
Even less hope of winning, but nobody important ever dies from attempting to cross the supposedly very dangerous Rubicon Primaris; or even dies in battle.
Even less hope of winning, but Imperial armies are seemingly able to cross the Cicatrix Maledictum whenever and wherever the plot requires it.
Even less hope of winning, but the Custodes are back, the Sisters of Silence are back, a Primarch is back, Celestine is back, Stern is back, etc. etc.
Even less hope of winning, but there are significant technological advances all over the place.
Even less hope of winning, but what have any of the Imperium's myriad enemies actually done to capitalise on their supposed advantage(s)?
That's deliberately ignoring the point. Nobody's saying the problem with modern 40k is that the good guys have it too easy. In fact, the more you transition away from a grimdark setting where everybody is the bad guys, the more you need to raise the stakes re: the threat the Imperium faces, because the only way to create tension in a superhero story is to make the situation more dire.
Escalating the stakes is a classic superhero narrative.
And I like the grimdark, but without contrast it lacks punch. You need to set people up to fail for the failure to have impact, otherwise the story has no dramatic tension.
Heck, in this supposed "noblebright" setting Chaos is more of a threat than they ever where before. I fail to understand how a flickering candlelight changes the whole setting to being "noblebright" instead of providing contrast to sell the horror better.
Dangerous threats don't make or break the tone or themes of the setting, at least not on their own. Pixar movies have dangerous threats. The scaling of odds of success against those threats likewise do not really influence tone or theme.
40K has never had a truly "good" hero on geopolitical level of the Imperium who is positioned as being "right". It does now, and it reduces the level of grimdark.
That may seem trivial to some, but grimdark is the key differentiator for GW's IP. So much so that the term is now in common parlance in genre fiction - and increasingly beyond - to denote overly pessimistic, violent, ironic, and absurdist fiction.
yukishiro1 wrote: That's deliberately ignoring the point. Nobody's saying the problem with modern 40k is that the good guys have it too easy. In fact, the more you transition away from a grimdark setting where everybody is the bad guys, the more you need to raise the stakes re: the threat the Imperium faces, because the only way to create tension in a superhero story is to make the situation more dire.
Escalating the stakes is a classic superhero narrative.
There is no good guy in the current setting.
Roboute may try to do things right, but he's often forced to do horrible things nonetheless.
The true grimdark is not to be gloom and doom without any light of hope. The true grimdark is having that hope twisted or extinguished after a brief time of radiance. That's the true horror : making people hope for nothing in the end, simply because the universe is a cold, dark and uncaring place for mankind.
But to achieve that, there must be hope first. Without it, you can't see the true terror of the situation.
Current sisters aren't good guys (girls, rather) at all. They burn innocents and inflict horrible suffering for themselves and citizens of the Imperium. They do it for what they believe are good reasons, but that doesn't make their methods any less horrifying. Same for Space Marines, Adeptus Custodes and Roboute Guilliman.
And the superhero narrative ? It was always there. Always. Named characters aren't new, they were at the very beginning of Rogue Trader itself. And they were quite powerful too in comparison to the troops. Why ? Because stories need heroes, and when you're building a whole universe at a galactic level...you need powerful characters to be able to stand out at the scale of the said universe.
I remember the days of Major Heroes profiles...and it wasn't especially better than now.
yukishiro1 wrote: That's deliberately ignoring the point. Nobody's saying the problem with modern 40k is that the good guys have it too easy. In fact, the more you transition away from a grimdark setting where everybody is the bad guys, the more you need to raise the stakes re: the threat the Imperium faces, because the only way to create tension in a superhero story is to make the situation more dire.
Escalating the stakes is a classic superhero narrative.
There is no good guy in the current setting.
Roboute may try to do things right, but he's often forced to do horrible things nonetheless.
The true grimdark is not to be gloom and doom without any light of hope. The true grimdark is having that hope twisted or extinguished after a brief time of radiance. That's the true horror : making people hope for nothing in the end, simply because the universe is a cold, dark and uncaring place for mankind.
But to achieve that, there must be hope first. Without it, you can't see the true terror of the situation.
Current sisters aren't good guys (girls, rather) at all. They burn innocents and inflict horrible suffering for themselves and citizens of the Imperium. They do it for what they believe are good reasons, but that doesn't make their methods any less horrifying. Same for Space Marines, Adeptus Custodes and Roboute Guilliman.
And the superhero narrative ? It was always there. Always. Named characters aren't new, they were at the very beginning of Rogue Trader itself. And they were quite powerful too in comparison to the troops.
I remember the days of Major Heroes profiles...and it wasn't especially better than now.
Disagree. As Dan Abnett said in a recent interview, there is no room for hope on the macro level for Warhammer 40,000. It can exist on the human level, the ground level as a story telling device, but not at the galactic scale. Roboute is a personified representation of hope at the galactic level, and it stinks.
Disagree. As Dan Abnett said in a recent interview, there is no room for hope on the macro level for Warhammer 40,000. It can exist on the human level, the ground level as a story telling device, but not at the galactic scale. Roboute is a personified representation of hope at the galactic level, and it stinks.
That's why Roboute's failing. You didn't read what I wrote ? To show the true horror of the situation, there must be hope first. If it's at a galactic scale, then the pressure is even greater...and the fall even harder when eventually it is doomed.
Dan Abnett is just one author. He has his views on his own stories, but that doesn't mean he's right for everything. And besides...His character of Saint Sabbat is pretty much hope at a far greater level than a mere human. So...that shows he himself can write something different.
Disagree. As Dan Abnett said in a recent interview, there is no room for hope on the macro level for Warhammer 40,000. It can exist on the human level, the ground level as a story telling device, but not at the galactic scale. Roboute is a personified representation of hope at the galactic level, and it stinks.
That's why he's failing. You didn't read what I wrote ? To show the true horror of the situation, there must be hope first. If it's at a galactic scale, then the pressure is even greater...and the fall even harder when eventually it is doomed.
Dan Abnett is just one author. He has his views on his own stories, but that doesn't mean he's right for everything.
I don't think he is failing, though. I think he's been set up as an indestructible poster-boy underdog to forever battle the forces of Chaos, saturday morning cartoon style.
On your point on Abnett: totally fair. I only brought him up because he's a well respected figure in 40K lore, and I happen to agree with him. Completely subjective though, I admit.
EDIT re your EDIT: Haha, that's very true. I did dislike the saint as well.
I don't think he is failing, though. I think he's been set up as an indestructible poster-boy underdog to forever battle the forces of Chaos, saturday morning cartoon style.
That's really not how he's portrayed in the recent books where he's the center of the story, though.
I don't think he is failing, though. I think he's been set up as an indestructible poster-boy underdog to forever battle the forces of Chaos, saturday morning cartoon style.
That's really not how he's portrayed in the recent books where he's the center of the story, though.
That totally could be the case. I haven't read a new BL book in years. However, I would say that I think the primary vessel for conveying the themes, tone, and lore of 40k are and always have been the rulebooks and codeces. There has been a marked departure since 8th (but maybe 6th) in these materials toward a more heroic, optimistic setting that gravitates around a central cast of characters than in the past.
I think the move from customizable "my guys" character approach to "buy this awesome fething centerpiece model!" has a lot to do with the tone shift, perceived or otherwise.
40K has never had a truly "good" hero on geopolitical level of the Imperium who is positioned as being "right". It does now, and it reduces the level of grimdark.
Except Logan Grimnar. Or Creed. Or Macharius.
'Good' and 'right' are necessary elements of any dystopian setting. Black on black does not make a picture..
Rulebooks and codexes are far to small to really give more than a Lacroix level taste of the themes and drives of a faction. BL is where the main themes are really shown.
That's why Roboute's failing. You didn't read what I wrote ? To show the true horror of the situation, there must be hope first. If it's at a galactic scale, then the pressure is even greater...and the fall even harder when eventually it is doomed.
Again, that's not how it actually plays out in practice. GW's treatment of G-man has repositioned the Imperium as not fundamentally bad but just as run by bad, lazy, corrupt administrators who have been poor guardians of what could be a sound institution. It becomes a story about whether there's enough good people like him to overcome the dual threats of the deep state and outside enemies, not a story about the slow crumbling of an institution that was fundamentally rotten to begin with and that has never had any rationale to justify its existence except that the alternative is (supposedly) worse.
The HH story has made clear that the Imperium is a fundamentally terrible institution that crushed many better societies in the process of its birth, run by a man who repeatedly made terrible decisions that led directly to the Heresy and his own near-death.
But at the same time, 40k has moved away from that by resurrecting G-man to "restore" the Imperium, which only makes sense if there is something heroic to restore in the first place.
It's all a bit incoherent. The consistent, grimdark thing would have been to have Guilliman return only to finally realize that his dad was never worth following in the first place and is now dead anyway, and therefore to have him come out of his "audience" with the pathetic, dead husk of "the Emperor"...and just leave, letting the Imperium burn itself down while he creates his own, better institution in Ultramar.
ClockworkZion wrote: Rulebooks and codexes are far to small to really give more than a Lacroix level taste of the themes and drives of a faction. BL is where the main themes are really shown.
I disagree. Honestly, I think the 2nd-4th edition rulebooks have more atmosphere dripping off a single lore page than most BL books manage to achieve. They are, after all, what defined the setting. BL is supplemental and always has been.
It's all a bit incoherent. The consistent, grimdark thing would have been to have Guilliman return only to finally realize that his dad was never worth following in the first place and is now dead anyway, and therefore to have him come out of his "audience" with the pathetic, dead husk of "the Emperor"...and just leave, letting the Imperium burn itself down while he creates his own, better institution in Ultramar.
Honestly, when the Primaris were first introduced, I was really hoping for an Imperium civil war along those lines. Almost like Horus Heresy 2; Primaris Boogaloo. That would also up the stakes as a divided Imperium is a more vulnerable Imperium.
Would have even provided some lore rationale for why most games of 40k are Imperium vs Imperium. It was such an obvious direction to go, but I guess the suits decided that it wasn't as safe as going Marvel instead.
40K has never had a truly "good" hero on geopolitical level of the Imperium who is positioned as being "right". It does now, and it reduces the level of grimdark.
Except Logan Grimnar. Or Creed. Or Macharius.
'Good' and 'right' are necessary elements of any dystopian setting. Black on black does not make a picture..
None of these characters effectively ran the Imperium though, which is a very important distinction. Anything they wanted to achieve was on the other side of the crushing vastness of the uncaring, hostile galaxy. They were comparatively minuscule actors in the grand stage of the 40k galaxy. Even if they led massive armies of millions, even those were incapable of steering the Imperium in any true direction. Those limitations of scale, indeed made their relative "goodness" stand out in an appropriate way that added depth to the overall tone and feel of 40k.
Roboute, by contrast, is figuratively cleaning house and making gak happen.
yukishiro1 wrote: The consistent, grimdark thing would have been to have Guilliman return only to finally realize that his dad was never worth following in the first place and is now dead anyway, and therefore to have him come out of his "audience" with the pathetic, dead husk of "the Emperor"...and just leave, letting the Imperium burn itself down while he creates his own, better institution in Ultramar.
Since when is doing the right thing more grimdark than a rotten compromise?
Roboute, by contrast, is figuratively cleaning house and making gak happen.
Which, as far as I can tell, led us to... the exact same Imperium we had before.
Again, hope, good intentions and a drive towards betterment are important elements of any dystopia. They only run counter to the themes of the setting if they're effective, which Guiliman's actions don't seem to be.
yukishiro1 wrote: The consistent, grimdark thing would have been to have Guilliman return only to finally realize that his dad was never worth following in the first place and is now dead anyway, and therefore to have him come out of his "audience" with the pathetic, dead husk of "the Emperor"...and just leave, letting the Imperium burn itself down while he creates his own, better institution in Ultramar.
Since when is doing the right thing more grimdark than a rotten compromise?
Abandoning trillions to suffer under the Imperium wouldn't have been "right." It might have been necessary to do any good at all, but it wouldn't have been noble. THAT would've been the true "rotten compromise." Therein lies the grimdark.
In the current story, he got his cake and is eating it too.
KidCthulhu wrote:I think the move from customizable "my guys" character approach to "buy this awesome fething centerpiece model!" has a lot to do with the tone shift, perceived or otherwise.
EDIT: just cleaning up syntax.
Very much so!
No one is forcing anyone to buy/use them. Vahl is a horrible model along with the rest of the suits, so not gonna buy them no matter how OP they are.
As for centerpiece models not gonna use them in any game smaller than 3k. But I have no problem with others wanting to use them.
they're excellent models but on the "normal" tabletop, hell no.
Who plays the triumph and Celestine in a 2k game? Are the gonna add Vahl now as well? Seems weird to me...
It's all a bit incoherent. The consistent, grimdark thing would have been to have Guilliman return only to finally realize that his dad was never worth following in the first place and is now dead anyway, and therefore to have him come out of his "audience" with the pathetic, dead husk of "the Emperor"...and just leave, letting the Imperium burn itself down while he creates his own, better institution in Ultramar.
Honestly, when the Primaris were first introduced, I was really hoping for an Imperium civil war along those lines. Almost like Horus Heresy 2; Primaris Boogaloo. That would also up the stakes as a divided Imperium is a more vulnerable Imperium.
Sigh, what could have been...
I've said it before, but I think fundamentally, GW's problem re: 40k is one of cowardice. They lack the conviction to properly follow through on any of their ideas because they're terrified of losing what they have. The madcap creativity of Age of Sigmar, as much as I dislike many of the results, was only possible because they had nothing to lose, and after destroying the old game, had no sacred cows left to preserve. They were free to create armies like Idoneth and Kharadron without being afraid of how the current fanbases would like them because the Dark Elves and Dwarves sales were already circling the drain.
40k today is too old to rock and roll, but too young to die. It's too old and set in its ways to foster creativity from the studio, but much too commercially successful to suffer sales-wise. I expect the current state of affairs will continue for at least the next 5ish years or so. Maybe 12th edition will be the big watershed moment?
A dark interpretation of Guilliman's return is that even his return is not sufficient to change things on the grand scale. Guilliman is running around the galaxy putting out fires, but is he really making any difference in the grand scale? Does he have an endgame beyond beating back the latest Chaos or alien incursion? Right now he is like a torch, shedding light wherever he goes, but the shadows of ignorance return whenever he leaves. Institutional inertia is a powerful thing and I could see it returning things to the old status quo as he never seems to stay still in one place long enough to enact long term reform. We see in the novels of his return examples of him shelving/delaying long term goals like revising/rationalizing the calendar system in favor of the short term goal of the next campaign.
Which is why a Sister High Lord running around on a battlefield may actually be a bad thing for Guilliman's goals because it's one less politically active support in a position to keep the inertial forces of the other Imperial institutions at bay. Sure she may not be a malleable pawn in the hands of the Ecclesiarch but I don't see her battlefield antics as really threatening the old status quo either.
It's all a bit incoherent. The consistent, grimdark thing would have been to have Guilliman return only to finally realize that his dad was never worth following in the first place and is now dead anyway, and therefore to have him come out of his "audience" with the pathetic, dead husk of "the Emperor"...and just leave, letting the Imperium burn itself down while he creates his own, better institution in Ultramar.
Honestly, when the Primaris were first introduced, I was really hoping for an Imperium civil war along those lines. Almost like Horus Heresy 2; Primaris Boogaloo. That would also up the stakes as a divided Imperium is a more vulnerable Imperium.
Sigh, what could have been...
I've said it before, but I think fundamentally, GW's problem re: 40k is one of cowardice. They lack the conviction to properly follow through on any of their ideas because they're terrified of losing what they have. The madcap creativity of Age of Sigmar, as much as I dislike many of the results, was only possible because they had nothing to lose, and after destroying the old game, had no sacred cows left to preserve. They were free to create armies like Idoneth and Kharadron without being afraid of how the current fanbases would like them because the Dark Elves and Dwarves sales were already circling the drain.
40k today is too old to rock and roll, but too young to die. It's too old and set in its ways to foster creativity from the studio, but much too commercially successful to suffer sales-wise. I expect the current state of affairs will continue for at least the next 5ish years or so. Maybe 12th edition will be the big watershed moment?
GW destroyed 2 homeworlds of first founding chapters recently.
It is slow, but they are moving things.
ClockworkZion wrote: Rulebooks and codexes are far to small to really give more than a Lacroix level taste of the themes and drives of a faction. BL is where the main themes are really shown.
I disagree. Honestly, I think the 2nd-4th edition rulebooks have more atmosphere dripping off a single lore page than most BL books manage to achieve. They are, after all, what defined the setting. BL is supplemental and always has been.
3rd was pretty barebones honestly, and 9th is emulating that level of detail. I agree 2nd was good, but I have no opinion on 4th as I never played it.
But no, codexes can't go in depth as much as even a single novel can. Much less a series of novels.
ClockworkZion wrote: Rulebooks and codexes are far to small to really give more than a Lacroix level taste of the themes and drives of a faction. BL is where the main themes are really shown.
I disagree. Honestly, I think the 2nd-4th edition rulebooks have more atmosphere dripping off a single lore page than most BL books manage to achieve. They are, after all, what defined the setting. BL is supplemental and always has been.
3rd was pretty barebones honestly, and 9th is emulating that level of detail. I agree 2nd was good, but I have no opinion on 4th as I never played it.
But no, codexes can't go in depth as much as even a single novel can. Much less a series of novels.
I suppose you're right in that the quality of the rulebooks/codices is subjective, but I think what's more important is that they are the primary storytelling medium of the 40k setting. As such they are miles ahead of BL when analyzing the story, tone, and themes of 40k.
Iracundus wrote: A dark interpretation of Guilliman's return is that even his return is not sufficient to change things on the grand scale. Guilliman is running around the galaxy putting out fires, but is he really making any difference in the grand scale? Does he have an endgame beyond beating back the latest Chaos or alien incursion? Right now he is like a torch, shedding light wherever he goes, but the shadows of ignorance return whenever he leaves. Institutional inertia is a powerful thing and I could see it returning things to the old status quo as he never seems to stay still in one place long enough to enact long term reform. We see in the novels of his return examples of him shelving/delaying long term goals like revising/rationalizing the calendar system in favor of the short term goal of the next campaign.
Which is why a Sister High Lord running around on a battlefield may actually be a bad thing for Guilliman's goals because it's one less politically active support in a position to keep the inertial forces of the other Imperial institutions at bay. Sure she may not be a malleable pawn in the hands of the Ecclesiarch but I don't see her battlefield antics as really threatening the old status quo either.
This is what I am talking about re: Guilliman having changed the Imperium story from being about a fundamentally terrible organization dying a slow and ultimately deserved death to instead a story about Making the Imperium Great Again. Whether MIGA actually succeeds isn't the issue, it's that it's moved the story in a fundamentally different direction because for MIGA to make any sense, the Imperium has to have been great originally...and that's a big change that fundamentally reorients who the good and bad guys are. Now the Imperium isn't so much irredeemably bad as just a victim of bad stewardship; this is a more typical good guys vs bad guys story.
One of the interesting things about old 40k is that it wasn't a good guys vs bad guys story. Guilliman's appointment as the de facto leader of the Imperium makes the 40k story a much more standard one.
GW destroyed 2 homeworlds of first founding chapters recently.
It is slow, but they are moving things.
I think this actually proves his point re: not being willing to really shake things up. Messing up a few homeworlds doesn't actually do anything for the bigger narrative. Destroying two founding chapters? Now that would have been a big deal - but it will also never happen, because of commercial imperatives - squatting the squats made people mad, but it'd be nothing compared to the fury if they squatted the Blood Angels. But messing up their homeworld a bit? Sure, that's totally consequence free, it literally has no impact on anything at all.
Hitting the Space Wolves home world is a big deal. That's a big name first founding chapter that has it's own supplement, not a chapter like the Mantis Warriors or the Genesis Chapter.
Do you really want GW to move forward the storyline and cause sensible and perpetual destruction? Do you really want that in your warhammer? Because thats how you get AoS.
Galas wrote: Do you really want GW to move forward the storyline and cause sensible and perpetual destruction? Do you really want that in your warhammer? Because thats how you get AoS.
Agree 100%. The IP has had steady growth for longer than I have been alive, and I am about to turn thirty.
The sandbox nature of the setting is no small part of why.
The Imperium was “great”, as in powerful, which is different from saying it was good. Guilliman is also under no illusions about being loved by the Emperor as the novels clearly show that he realized from his audience that he had never been anything more than a tool. He also starts to have the tiniest sliver of doubt about the Emperor’s non-divinity after seeing an apparent example of the Emperor’s power being channeled through a young psyker girl to banish daemons.
However he still fights on because of his beliefs that the Imperium could be made better, and that the alternative for humanity of a shattered Inperium being swamped by threats would be worse. I don’t see his push for a saner Inperium as suddenly making the Imperium morally good anymore than the realm of Ultramar is morally good. A secular imperialistic dictatorship that tramples its people in the name of an abstract ideal of humanity vs a religious imperialistic dictatorship that tramples its people and demands worship for its carrion god. Both can be viewed as morally bad, just in different ways. One could also disagree with Guilliman’s decision as he is ultimately prolonging the Imperium, and that maybe it would actually have been better for him to have let it die off and instead attempted any revival of humanity starting from Ultramar. Guilliman may be making the classic mistake of trying to defend everything.
Also the storyline has moved forward in 40k pretty much since the beginning with about a 1:1 year rate correspondence in the 1990’s. That is what allowed for character stories and deaths like Tycho to occur. The timeline freeze in the final days of 999.M40 in the early 2000’s was actually a change from what happened before, and grew increasingly problematic as not every faction has the timeline space for retroactive insertion of material into the past. Story progression does not necessarily translate to setting destruction.
Galas wrote: Do you really want GW to move forward the storyline and cause sensible and perpetual destruction? Do you really want that in your warhammer? Because thats how you get AoS.
Compared to the constant cramming of every major ebent into M40.999? Yes.
And you get AoS when the community stops buying the game and they have to do something drastic to get a playerbase back.
ClockworkZion wrote: Hitting the Space Wolves home world is a big deal. That's a big name first founding chapter that has it's own supplement, not a chapter like the Mantis Warriors or the Genesis Chapter.
Except it doesn't matter if their homeworld is gone. What are they going to be, _more_ mad at Magnus?
The 'only can recruit from Fenris' thing was a weird late addition/retcon and rendered entirely moot by Primaris. So what if a tribal population on a hellworld is gone? What real impact does that have?
They'll go out and fight stuff, just like they always have before. Whatever.
ClockworkZion wrote: Hitting the Space Wolves home world is a big deal. That's a big name first founding chapter that has it's own supplement, not a chapter like the Mantis Warriors or the Genesis Chapter.
Except it doesn't matter if their homeworld is gone. What are they going to be, _more_ mad at Magnus?
The 'only can recruit from Fenris' thing was a weird late addition/retcon and rendered entirely moot by Primaris. So what if a tribal population on a hellworld is gone? What real impact does that have?
They'll go out and fight stuff, just like they always have before. Whatever.
So this logic means breaking Cadia was pointless and any win Chaos has is pointless unless it kills down a faction to the man.
Galas wrote: Do you really want GW to move forward the storyline and cause sensible and perpetual destruction? Do you really want that in your warhammer? Because thats how you get AoS.
Compared to the constant cramming of every major ebent into M40.999? Yes.
And you get AoS when the community stops buying the game and they have to do something drastic to get a playerbase back.
ClockworkZion wrote: Hitting the Space Wolves home world is a big deal. That's a big name first founding chapter that has it's own supplement, not a chapter like the Mantis Warriors or the Genesis Chapter.
Except it doesn't matter if their homeworld is gone. What are they going to be, _more_ mad at Magnus?
The 'only can recruit from Fenris' thing was a weird late addition/retcon and rendered entirely moot by Primaris. So what if a tribal population on a hellworld is gone? What real impact does that have?
They'll go out and fight stuff, just like they always have before. Whatever.
So this logic means breaking Cadia was pointless and any win Chaos has is pointless unless it kills down a faction to the man.
...yes. Yes it does.
There is no 'win state' for 40k. The war continues, no matter what, otherwise there isn't a setting, story OR game.
40k numbers are made of pure nonsense. There are still however many Cadians there need to be (and even if there aren't there are still X billion guardsmen that are exactly the same as Cadians).
Losing half the galaxy has not mattered, let alone the Space Woofs homeworld.
I really don't think Guilliman coming back to help the Imperium defeats the purpose of a grimdark setting. Guilliman certainly isn't happy to be back.
"Why do I still live? What more do you want from me? I gave everything I had to you, to them. Look what they've made of our dream. This bloated, rotting carcass of an empire is driven not by reason and hope but by fear, hate and ignorance. Better that we had all burned in the fires of Horus' ambition than live to see this."
Guilliman's return is counterbalanced by the galaxy literally being cut in half by a warp storm. Primaris, although stronger, aren't wiping out xenos or changing the setting in any notable way. The biggest thing they did was to prevent certain chapters from being wiped out; Lamenters, Blood Angels, Scythes of the Emperor, etc.
Yeah, nothing significant has really happened in 40k since the end of 7th/start of 8th.
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GaroRobe wrote: I really don't think Guilliman coming back to help the Imperium defeats the purpose of a grimdark setting. Guilliman certainly isn't happy to be back.
"Why do I still live? What more do you want from me? I gave everything I had to you, to them. Look what they've made of our dream. This bloated, rotting carcass of an empire is driven not by reason and hope but by fear, hate and ignorance. Better that we had all burned in the fires of Horus' ambition than live to see this."
Guilliman's return is counterbalanced by the galaxy literally being cut in half by a warp storm. Primaris, although stronger, aren't wiping out xenos or changing the setting in any notable way. The biggest thing they did was to prevent certain chapters from being wiped out; Lamenters, Blood Angels, Scythes of the Emperor, etc.
Again, this is exactly what I'm highlighting: they've retconned the Imperium's past into something glorious and heroic that needs to be restored. The Imperium has always been a bloated, rotting carcass of oppression - at least until they retconned that by bringing Guilliman back and had him proclaim that the bad old days were actually the good old days and the problem is just the corrupt deep state.
I mean, since when was the Imperium driven by reason? The Emperor was a ruthless despot who showed terrible judgment both in matters of administration and of character, flanked by a bunch of violent man-children whose only greater talent than killing was getting into pointless fights with one another, who wiped out multiple other human civilizations that were more fair, more equal, and less xenophobic. The Imperium was founded on fear, hate and ignorance.
Yeah, Guilliman is probably just nostalgic. The Imperium wasn't great at the start, but it's so much worse now. The Emperor isn't around to guide them and now he's being worshipped like a god. The Emp also can't even pretend to be human or at least behave like one; Guilliman equates his return to the Emp finding a tool he thought he lost. I don't think it's a retcon. Guilliman was optimistic during the GC. He hoped to eventually retire. But now, there's only war.
Guilliman is sidelined for most of HH, and I think the reason for that is precisely because the writers didn't know what to do with him because he's not very interesting and his uncomplicated heroism doesn't fit the setting well except as a foil for everyone else.
Having one guy be the foil for all the other terribleness just about works (as long as you don't give him too much stage time). It doesn't really work when you appoint him leader of the whole Imperium, that changes the tone quite dramatically. We've never before had an uncomplicatedly heroic figure right as the boss of the whole show, except the effectively offscreen cleanup role he had after the end of HH. And that's why they've had to go down the MIGA vs the deep state path, with all that implies re: whether the Imperium is fundamentally flawed or just flawed in the execution.
Guilliman has a place in a grimdark story, but that place is not as the boss.
GW destroyed 2 homeworlds of first founding chapters recently.
It is slow, but they are moving things.
I think this actually proves his point re: not being willing to really shake things up. Messing up a few homeworlds doesn't actually do anything for the bigger narrative. Destroying two founding chapters? Now that would have been a big deal - but it will also never happen, because of commercial imperatives - squatting the squats made people mad, but it'd be nothing compared to the fury if they squatted the Blood Angels. But messing up their homeworld a bit? Sure, that's totally consequence free, it literally has no impact on anything at all.
Your example would matter more if it wasn't for the fact that Blood Angels have been 100% squatted and no one did care.
Right now if you play something that isn't a primaris blood angel, you are playing a "what if" scenario or a scenario from before the actual timeline.
The blood angels have been all slaughtered to the last man. Out of all the blood angels AND all the secondary chapters, only a few dozens survived.
The sarcophagi were destroyed.
Nothing is left of the black company.
Fluff wise blood angels have been completely wiped.
Dante was then given command of a bunch of primaris marines which came from the same geneseed, but apart from that and the name there is nothing in them that is "blood angels".
So there you have it. Major faction squatted. Or do you really want GW to also enforce all blood angel miniatures into legends or it doesn't feel squatted enough to you? Because I think that many wouldn't agree with you if you proposed to invalidate a full range of miniatures for fluff reasons.
Your post reads like you're purporting to disagree with me, and yet it's actually illustrating my point. It's rather confusing. FWIW though I think your numbers are wrong, IIRC more like 300 survived, several thousand non-primaris were inducted immediately afterward, the death company wasn't totally destroyed, etc, though it doesn't really make any difference to the point.
ClockworkZion wrote: Hitting the Space Wolves home world is a big deal. That's a big name first founding chapter that has it's own supplement, not a chapter like the Mantis Warriors or the Genesis Chapter.
Except it doesn't matter if their homeworld is gone. What are they going to be, _more_ mad at Magnus?
The 'only can recruit from Fenris' thing was a weird late addition/retcon and rendered entirely moot by Primaris. So what if a tribal population on a hellworld is gone? What real impact does that have?
They'll go out and fight stuff, just like they always have before. Whatever.
So this logic means breaking Cadia was pointless and any win Chaos has is pointless unless it kills down a faction to the man.
Outside of people making fun of Cadian players, how has it changed a thing ? The imperium is more at risk, things are more dire, but don't worry we have more heroes and more hope with Primaris and all the new super tech we had waiting just in the back room ! Cadians are still the plastic faction there are so many Cadians off world it hardly matters and many other regiments use their standard gear of armor and las rifle and even training, it said as much in the Guard codex and other lore. It means effectively nothing other than a story to tell but near the same status quo. It literally can't wipe anything out without sinking and pissing off people who play those forces.So yeah, all of the defeats Chaos suffered before meant nothing, their wins now mean nothing. The imperium is screwed and saved in the same measure from the defeats and then the Primaris. I mean sucks to know, but there it is.
It isn't a blood angels discussion, that was just a side-issue that grew out of a broader discussion that started with the new High Lord re: where GW is taking the setting and peoples' feelings about it. I'm sure the thread will return more directly to SoB as soon as there's any more actual news for people to talk about.
I don't like her... Rules wise and design wise I find her fine, but I'm not going to add her to my sisters. And that's not only due to me disliking centerpiece models.
She looks good and will go well with the new sister suits, which I am sure is why she was made. I don't mind center piece models they usually tend to be one of the first to get smashed anyways.
These suit sisters are going to just be one of those you love um or hate um types of units.
I don't think the little arms are that bad, you have the leave the arms somewhere if you want a person to logically fit inside and the robot is not big enough for a full cockpit
The exposed pilot is a lot worse for me personally.
I think Infinity does this sort of design a lot better
Ordana wrote: I don't think the little arms are that bad, you have the leave the arms somewhere if you want a person to logically fit inside and the robot is not big enough for a full cockpit
Isn't the answer to that to just not make a robot that's too small to accommodate the pilot?
Well, yes. But then you have something 40k already has. They had to let the little arms hang out to create something new and different to get people to open their wallets again.
yukishiro1 wrote: Well, yes. But then you have something 40k already has. They had to let the little arms hang out to create something new and different to get people to open their wallets again.
New and different like a Dreadknight?
Or a Penitent Engine?
It's not a coincidence it's very slightly different from each of those too.
I mean if you are saying there is no reason for these units to exist I agree, you're preaching to the choir there. But the reason GW chose this particular design is because it had already done the obvious, less awkward ones.
Isn't the answer to that to just not make a robot that's too small to accommodate the pilot?
Like the Sha's o big crisis armor, yes. But that wouldn't be selling the same price and would need a bigger box. Package matters as well - so small arms outside is a good compromise, like Infinity. Also I don't think a bigger suit would have been treated the same way in the rules - they certainly would have thought to make something more like Dreadnought rather than a unit of 3 battlesuits a bit similar to Crisis suits.
And head is exposed because in 40k, they are. Gives more character to the miniature if you can see their face. With helmets on, it's impersonnal, like Storm Troopers in Star War dieing in waves. Nothing more, nothing less : it's not about being realistic or not. Some like with the helmets on, others with the helmet off. It's good GW gives us the choice to have either.
Sure seems to piss off some people here absolutely convinced it's a crime to put the option of having a helmetless version. Heh, whatever, it's not like their opinion matters here for those who like the miniatures with bare heads.
yukishiro1 wrote: But the reason GW chose this particular design is because it had already done the obvious, less awkward ones.
They simply reimagined the dreadknight on a smaller scale and took inspiration of what was done elsewhere for exo-armors is that all. They didn't make the same as penitent engines / mortifiers because these sisters aren't criminals sentenced to serve as crucified bodies on a walking torture engine. It has nothing to do with being "obvious" or "less awkward".
Not really feeling the exposed pilot arms and head myself on these big suits but like 'em otherwise.
I think there was a photoshopped pic in this thread or another with the little arms deleted and something covering the head over; kinda liked that look. As far as no room for a pilot, well maybe these are horribly wounded veteran sisters as pilots who just dont have much physically left of their bodies but they want to fight on. Hardly original, but feels like it could work....
Sure it could work. Feel free to build your miniatures however you see it fit, they're yours once you bought them.
Can also remove the pilot entirely and say they're machines fueled by the Emperor's Holy Spirit or something. And not care about these Adeptus Mechanicus nerds saying it's their Omnimessiah not yours.
Iracundus wrote: A dark interpretation of Guilliman's return is that even his return is not sufficient to change things on the grand scale. Guilliman is running around the galaxy putting out fires, but is he really making any difference in the grand scale? Does he have an endgame beyond beating back the latest Chaos or alien incursion? Right now he is like a torch, shedding light wherever he goes, but the shadows of ignorance return whenever he leaves. Institutional inertia is a powerful thing and I could see it returning things to the old status quo as he never seems to stay still in one place long enough to enact long term reform. We see in the novels of his return examples of him shelving/delaying long term goals like revising/rationalizing the calendar system in favor of the short term goal of the next campaign.
Which is why a Sister High Lord running around on a battlefield may actually be a bad thing for Guilliman's goals because it's one less politically active support in a position to keep the inertial forces of the other Imperial institutions at bay. Sure she may not be a malleable pawn in the hands of the Ecclesiarch but I don't see her battlefield antics as really threatening the old status quo either.
Or alternatively, might be a good thing for Guilliman because that's one battlefield less he needs to worry about and a tiny bit more attention he can devote to actually important things. Sure, he would probably prefer her to be his supporter on High Lords but he can't afford that now.
Right this moment, there is probably nothing Guilliman wouldn't love more than Lion/Khan/Corax returning so he can throw Warmaster patent in their face and tell them to start yesterday so he can actually have time to do some badly needed political reforms, but since he doesn't have them, he needs to make do with mortal commanders.
Whether MIGA actually succeeds isn't the issue, it's that it's moved the story in a fundamentally different direction because for MIGA to make any sense, the Imperium has to have been great originally...and that's a big change that fundamentally reorients who the good and bad guys are. Now the Imperium isn't so much irredeemably bad as just a victim of bad stewardship; this is a more typical good guys vs bad guys story.
What you said does not follow in any way, shape or form. It might just as well be a story of good man trying to reform evil organization, and failing at it due to lack of resources and/or inertia. You know, actual grimdark story, much more so than idiotic grimdumb of past editions where everyone was twirling moustache EVUL with capital letters and had to kick a puppy or two before breakfast. Taking a look how good people might function in Imperium and what they might try to achieve is much more interesting that yet another "and then I exterminatused another planet before lunch because I was bored" snoozefest.
Also the storyline has moved forward in 40k pretty much since the beginning with about a 1:1 year rate correspondence in the 1990’s. That is what allowed for character stories and deaths like Tycho to occur. The timeline freeze in the final days of 999.M40 in the early 2000’s was actually a change from what happened before, and grew increasingly problematic as not every faction has the timeline space for retroactive insertion of material into the past.
It was also comically stupid because more and more events were being inserted into the year 999 (as it was the only one that still had space) to the tune Blood Angels needing like 80 companies worth of SM to actually be in all places they were supposed to in that single year and do all the battles they did in fluff - unless they shown up in each place with like two marines and a bored scout and these three were the ones pushing back WAAAGHs, CSM warbands and Tyranid hive fleets all on their lonesome. The whole 'it's just a setting' nonsense nearly collapsed 40K and wiser authors, like Mitchell with his Cain series progressing decade by decade without any silly cutoff limits ignored it completely.
Irbis wrote: It might just as well be a story of good man trying to reform evil organization, and failing at it due to lack of resources and/or inertia.[/i] You know, actual grimdark story
That's not a grimdark story. That's just a typical hero narrative, but with an unhappy ending. Grimdark doesn't mean "the bad guys win," it means "this isn't a story about the good guys vs the bad guys."
Irbis wrote: It might just as well be a story of good man trying to reform evil organization, and failing at it due to lack of resources and/or inertia.[/i] You know, actual grimdark story
That's not a grimdark story. That's just a typical hero narrative, but with an unhappy ending. Grimdark doesn't mean "the bad guys win," it means "this isn't a story about the good guys vs the bad guys."
Guilliman is hardly a "good guy" he's just a less corrupt guy. I think people forget the Primarchs are war criminals on the best of days and worse if given half a justification.
GaroRobe wrote: In the grim darkness of the far future, you'll be hard-pressed to find someone who hasn't committed some form of war crime.
Very true. Point is that calling Guilliman a "good guy" is ignoring how messed up the stuff he's done has been. Like sure he doesn't kick puppies like the Inquisition, or use power for the sake of gaining more power at the detriment of everyone else, but he's not someone you'd want to watch your kids either. I mean his first response to "oh crap my dad might be dead" was "oh well, time to go build Imperium 2: Electric Boogaloo".
I mean his first response to "oh crap my dad might be dead" was "oh well, time to go build Imperium 2: Electric Boogaloo".
That's... a pretty standard response for someone who's a 'son' of the Emperor. Trying to keep the Empire under control (at least as much as possible) is a reasonable and rational decision when the Emperor is probably dead and a civil war is raging on.
What's he going to do, shrug and go to a month long beach party?
I mean his first response to "oh crap my dad might be dead" was "oh well, time to go build Imperium 2: Electric Boogaloo".
That's... a pretty standard response for someone who's a 'son' of the Emperor. Trying to keep the Empire under control (at least as much as possible) is a reasonable and rational decision when the Emperor is probably dead and a civil war is raging on.
What's he going to do, shrug and go to a month long beach party?
He didn't try to maintain the Imperium as it was, he tried to splinter off and make his own Imperium (sans blackjack and hookers).
I mean his first response to "oh crap my dad might be dead" was "oh well, time to go build Imperium 2: Electric Boogaloo".
That's... a pretty standard response for someone who's a 'son' of the Emperor. Trying to keep the Empire under control (at least as much as possible) is a reasonable and rational decision when the Emperor is probably dead and a civil war is raging on.
What's he going to do, shrug and go to a month long beach party?
He didn't try to maintain the Imperium as it was, he tried to splinter off and make his own Imperium (sans blackjack and hookers).
Maybe his desire to save the Imperium now is him trying to make up for his decision back then. Ironic as it could be argued now preserving a smaller more rational realm might be the better option than trying to vainly save the entire tottering Imperium as a whole.
Guilliman is absolutely a good guy and it's comical to see anyone try to seriously argue otherwise. Even on the rare occasions he does bad things, it's basically always for a good purpose. He stands out like a sore thumb in 40k for a reason, which was fine as a contrast as long as he never got more than a bit-part role, but is proving very problematic now that he's the main protagonist.
Racerguy180 wrote: All primarchs have committed genocide, xenocide, etc. So calling any of them good is a stretch.
Judge the primarchs by our 20th Century ethics if you want. They know the truth: In the grim dark future there is only war... an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.
And primarchs have nothing to do with Adepta Sororitas rumors. Please take the discussion elsewhere.
Trying to guess the current GW release schedule is a bit tricky. We're still waiting for the admech release that was meant to be sometime last month. Not to mention Orks some time after sisters. Covid plus Evergreen has really made things chaotic yeah?
cody.d. wrote: Trying to guess the current GW release schedule is a bit tricky. We're still waiting for the admech release that was meant to be sometime last month. Not to mention Orks some time after sisters. Covid plus Evergreen has really made things chaotic yeah?
I feel like the Ork box will drop but the actual Ork codex won't be until fall like they did with the Sisters.
). Celestians with maces look nice as I thought, and their hooded heads will be useful. I too thought the "not missionary" named character was a generic priest too. I already have my own converted miniatures for priests anyway.
