GaroRobe wrote: A bit salty that the Combat Patrol is the $200 SOB army boxset. Especially since it includes a Rhino (no codex, but still) for less. But I guess it's nice for other people to get a chance to pick up those models.
The box contained a special codex (based on LE pricing that'd be $80 USD) and cards (currently priced at $25 USD) and the cheapest set kf "Miarcle Dice" ever seen.
So yeah the models being around $100USD sounds about right for GW.
MonkeyBallistic wrote: Personally, I find the shield attached to the side of a pistol far more egregious than one handed halberds. I think, if I was going to use these minis, I’d ditch the shields altogether and give them new left arms, either empty handed or holding pistols.
It's funny how NOW it's a problem when we've had a Combat Shield in the Marine Command Squad for how long now?
I’m not sure what you’re insinuating, but it’s always been a stupid idea. It’s a stupid idea now and it was an equally stupid idea back then. Why would you think I was okay with crappy old marines doing when I’ve said I think it’s a stupid idea?
lord marcus wrote: My local just posted prices for the new sisters stuff.
How the hell is Morven Vahl (spelling may be off) worth $55
That's standard GW pricing for modern kits. Characters are always overpriced hugely.
It's the Sacresants that are really incredible: $55 for 5 models that each cost 14 points. Ooph. That's almost Acolyte Hybrid level milking. Though I guess not much worse than Seraphim. The whole army is premium priced, it is not an army for someone on a budget. Vahl is actually the best deal in the whole book price-wise.
lord marcus wrote: My local just posted prices for the new sisters stuff.
How the hell is Morven Vahl (spelling may be off) worth $55
Abaddon and Gulliman are $60, Ghaz is $65, so, about standard for a Supreme Commander model?
yeah and she's easly on par with any of those 3 characters both in terms of model detail and sheer hitting power, if people can justify any of those 3 they can justify her
GaroRobe wrote: A bit salty that the Combat Patrol is the $200 SOB army boxset. Especially since it includes a Rhino (no codex, but still) for less. But I guess it's nice for other people to get a chance to pick up those models.
The box contained a special codex (based on LE pricing that'd be $80 USD) and cards (currently priced at $25 USD) and the cheapest set kf "Miarcle Dice" ever seen.
So yeah the models being around $100USD sounds about right for GW.
That's pretty much how I justified myself buying the boxset
It would have been nice if those "miracle dice" were the ones they just released though. Instead of, you know, just plain dice
So the Combat Patrol box is literally just the monopose sisters + a Rhino? Damn, that is weak, you'd think at least they'd throw in full kits. Been waiting a year and a half to see what the Start Collecting/Combat Patrol would be and this is just sad.
Only positive change I'm seeing is that dominions got their pre-game transport move back. All the other changes look less than exciting.
damage 2 storm bolters, +1s on all flamer variants (and the ebon rose max hits with flamers is now generic), every non-bloody rose order is better. Repentia went down 2 points and got core. Penitent engine got natural advance and charge as well as +1 movement.
This all seems very minor considering just about every other unit seems to have been made objectively worse.
Oh well, guess we'll see how it plays on the board, but my army doesn't benefit from any of the above except maybe the flamer changes and the new units don't seem particularly potent either. And my poor exorcists, which I knew was coming, but still.
Only positive change I'm seeing is that dominions got their pre-game transport move back. All the other changes look less than exciting.
damage 2 storm bolters, +1s on all flamer variants (and the ebon rose max hits with flamers is now generic), every non-bloody rose order is better. Repentia went down 2 points and got core. Penitent engine got natural advance and charge as well as +1 movement.
This all seems very minor considering just about every other unit seems to have been made objectively worse.
Oh well, guess we'll see how it plays on the board, but my army doesn't benefit from any of the above except maybe the flamer changes and the new units don't seem particularly potent either. And my poor exorcists, which I knew was coming, but still.
I cannot believe they though they could take a point of toughness, a wound, a point of AP, it's unique stratagem, AND access to rerolls and think a 15 point discount would be good enough.
It should be back at it's Beta Codex cost of 125, failing that anything more than 140 would be joke.
dammit wrote: I didn't realise Mortifiers got zealot. So now they expect 9 s5 hits per 60 point model, instead of 10.
That makes the flail change make more sense. Doesn't help buzzblades not be the better option thoug,which sucks if you already had a bunch built.
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bullyboy wrote: So now they are basically a devastator squad, no need to put so much work into them. They also won't be enemy #1 for every opponent either.
Problem is: When's the last time you saw a devastator squad not coming out of drop pod? 5th? And sisters ain't got no drop pods.
I've been thinking about a couple of the changes and I think that the pistol buff being taken away from Blood Rose likely has to do with the Sacrosanct, while the Seraphim likely lost their range strat due to the Minor Orders buffing specific weapon types.
If so the changes make sense even if they're not all that great for people who were all in on Seraphim.
I want to say Retributors were changed because of the smaller board size, but then Argent Shroud lets them run and shoot, so maybe they were nerfed so people would remember the Exorcist exists?
And reading the ability of beneficence again, the d3+3 extra attacks are when 6+ models within 3 inches, not when attacking a unit of that size, as I'd originally thought.
With bloody rose + war hymns, could potentially get 12 attacks at s5 d1, as opposed to 8 s4 d2 before.
The trades are 3+ for the hymn, compared to having to have kept the preacher/missionary in range.
You have to get the pieces in order but it seems close as anything to a sidegrade.
no rerolls
vs t4
7 damage vs 8 damage
vs t5
5 damage vs 6 damage
vs t8
3 damage vs 2 damage
righteous rage 9th (or vahl rerolls) vs 8th + canoness r/r 1 to hit aura.
vs t4
10 damage vs 12 damage
vs t5
9 damage vs 9 damage
vs t8
6 damage vs 4 damage
Yes, I know that there's now some variance, but if everything falls right, the new beneficence does keep up with the old one.
And now we can turn off invulns so more of that damage goes unsaved.
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ClockworkZion wrote: I've been thinking about a couple of the changes and I think that the pistol buff being taken away from Blood Rose likely has to do with the Sacrosanct, while the Seraphim likely lost their range strat due to the Minor Orders buffing specific weapon types.
If so the changes make sense even if they're not all that great for people who were all in on Seraphim.
I want to say Retributors were changed because of the smaller board size, but then Argent Shroud lets them run and shoot, so maybe they were nerfed so people would remember the Exorcist exists?
Retributors were changed because between the old codex and now, multi-meltas had gone from heavy 1 d6+1 (pick highest) to heavy 2 d6+3. Something had to give, and it was the rules, rather than the points or the wargear options.
ClockworkZion wrote: I've been thinking about a couple of the changes and I think that the pistol buff being taken away from Blood Rose likely has to do with the Sacrosanct, while the Seraphim likely lost their range strat due to the Minor Orders buffing specific weapon types.
If so the changes make sense even if they're not all that great for people who were all in on Seraphim.
I want to say Retributors were changed because of the smaller board size, but then Argent Shroud lets them run and shoot, so maybe they were nerfed so people would remember the Exorcist exists?
Then why was the Exorcist utterly destroyed? For the Castigator? The Castigator isn't good either. Even with the nerfs to retributors they remain the best 'long' range shooting unit in the book just out of how trash the tanks are.
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dammit wrote: And reading the ability of beneficence again, the d3+3 extra attacks are when 6+ models within 3 inches, not when attacking a unit of that size, as I'd originally thought.
With bloody rose + war hymns, could potentially get 12 attacks at s5 d1, as opposed to 8 s4 d2 before.
The trades are 3+ for the hymn, compared to having to have kept the preacher/missionary in range.
You have to get the pieces in order but it seems close as anything to a sidegrade.
no rerolls
vs t4
7 damage vs 8 damage
vs t5
5 damage vs 6 damage
vs t8
3 damage vs 2 damage
righteous rage 9th (or vahl rerolls) vs 8th + canoness r/r 1 to hit aura.
vs t4
10 damage vs 12 damage
vs t5
9 damage vs 9 damage
vs t8
6 damage vs 4 damage
Yes, I know that there's now some variance, but if everything falls right, the new beneficence does keep up with the old one.
And now we can turn off invulns so more of that damage goes unsaved.
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ClockworkZion wrote: I've been thinking about a couple of the changes and I think that the pistol buff being taken away from Blood Rose likely has to do with the Sacrosanct, while the Seraphim likely lost their range strat due to the Minor Orders buffing specific weapon types.
If so the changes make sense even if they're not all that great for people who were all in on Seraphim.
I want to say Retributors were changed because of the smaller board size, but then Argent Shroud lets them run and shoot, so maybe they were nerfed so people would remember the Exorcist exists?
Retributors were changed because between the old codex and now, multi-meltas had gone from heavy 1 d6+1 (pick highest) to heavy 2 d6+3. Something had to give, and it was the rules, rather than the points or the wargear options.
Being able to shut off invulnerable saves runs completely counter to being within 3" of 6 models. What'd you do, charge a full strength paladin squad?
She also takes a huge hit against other characters.
Yeah, the multi-melta change makes sense. Honestly most of the changes make sense, and though the book it just a little weaker it feels like it's ultimately healthier without ending up pre-nerf Drukhari levels of broken.
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ERJAK wrote: Then why was the Exorcist utterly destroyed? For the Castigator? The Castigator isn't good either. Even with the nerfs to retributors they remain the best 'long' range shooting unit in the book just out of how trash the tanks are.
Probably to bring it in line with the Castigator or the Whirlwind since it gained the ability to shoot outside of Line of Sight for a CP. I don't think the tanks themselves are trash though, just more of how the current meta of 9th has pushed tanks and monstrous creatures off the table.
ERJAK wrote: Being able to shut off invulnerable saves runs completely counter to being within 3" of 6 models. What'd you do, charge a full strength paladin squad?
She also takes a huge hit against other characters.
Well if you're fighting Daemons I guess it's handy?
ClockworkZion wrote: Yeah, the multi-melta change makes sense. Honestly most of the changes make sense, and though the book it just a little weaker it feels like it's ultimately healthier without ending up pre-nerf Drukhari levels of broken.
To me it just feels like they funneled the power that was left after the nerfs into Repentia and Morvann. I wouldn't be surprised to see builds end up more cookie cutter than ever.
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dammit wrote: The point was that you can still go after the character while benefiting from the full extra attacks if they've got a 5-model squad in close range.
Which is very rare if they aren't charging you. Especially if they know what beneficence does.
Also you have the small complication of having to deal with either the character or the unit even if you do kill your target.
ClockworkZion wrote: Yeah, the multi-melta change makes sense. Honestly most of the changes make sense, and though the book it just a little weaker it feels like it's ultimately healthier without ending up pre-nerf Drukhari levels of broken.
To me it just feels like they funneled the power that was left after the nerfs into Repentia and Morvann. I wouldn't be surprised to see builds end up more cookie cutter than ever.
Some of the nerfs were just changing where the rules are coming from like dropping the Seraphim flame pistol range buff strat to being a Minor Order trait. Others were more about fixing the book's internal balance. Honestly this isn't as bad as you're making it out to be. Then again my perspective is heavilly skewed thanks to playing through the WD codex and the digital only codex eras of the army.
Where are you guys seeing all these rules? Im checking all the links but none of them give stats on the penitent engines or rules on the retributors. Is there another place that's leaking rules?
buckero0 wrote: Where are you guys seeing all these rules? Im checking all the links but none of them give stats on the penitent engines or rules on the retributors. Is there another place that's leaking rules?
You can probably see them on Man Reads Book over on GMG on Youtube. Goonhammer has a good article, and Mob Rules did good coverage on the book which is where I got my information.
Is the combat patrol usually released a lot later or thats still unsure?
If pre orders are up, doesn't that mean things are going to hit the stores in a couple of weeks?
buckero0 wrote: Is the combat patrol usually released a lot later or thats still unsure?
If pre orders are up, doesn't that mean things are going to hit the stores in a couple of weeks?
Codex will be out to the public next week, they might do the Combat Patrol for next week's pre-order to fill the weekend before they start the AoS 3.0 pre-order.
ClockworkZion wrote: I want to say Retributors were changed because of the smaller board size, but then Argent Shroud lets them run and shoot, so maybe they were nerfed so people would remember the Exorcist exists?
Then why did they also nerf the Exorcist? And make the Immolators so damned expensive for that matter.
I think that GW sees the Retributors and goes "Well, they're a Sisters Dev Squad, so we'll treat them as such!", forgetting that one of their weapons is a 12" ranged weapon, and another of their weapons has an effective range of 12". They're not Devs/Havocs by any stretch. They don't have the durability of either, or the range. And I don't think the enhanced lethality of the Multi-Melta in 9th is a good excuse, because if it's better, then you make it more expensive. You don't change the base rules for the entire unit because one weapon is better. But then again, using a pile-driver when a scalpel will do is GW's MO when it comes to rules. Gross overbalancing seems to be the only way they do things.
Oh... it just occurred to me. I guess that means Havocs might end up losing Move & Shoot. Cool.
I'm pretty immediately tired of all of this 'internal balance' and 'adjust playstyles' nonsense. Sisters were pretty much in a perfect spot; they could place in tournies and get wins every now and then. Their win ratio wasn't insane, they weren't oppressive or impossible to beat, they weren't trivial/skilless to pilot.
This was a bad move. They didn't bring other orders up to compete with BR/VH, they brought both of them down significantly.
Rets and repentia were extremely powerful; but when has any codex with top tier potential not had 1-2 extremely powerful units? Like, that is kind of required to be a top level army.
But beyond them, they nerfed almost every good-maybe-makes-it-into-a-list unit. Triumph, zeraphym, seraphim, exos, immolaters, mortifiers. Imigifiers. Heck, pretty solid argument for priests/missionaries ultimately being a nerf though at least they got more interesting. Plus the entire miracle dice mechanic?
And almost nothing really got cooler or more interesting either. Sure some of the orders are a bit better, but BR still feels mandatory to make melee work and everyone else is just competing for which is the least bad for shooting. But no interesting new mechanics, new spins, no dark horse models suddenly getting to shine. You're not going to play with a new feel; you're going to play the exact same general way with fewer and worse tools for the job.
I mean, maybe the whole horde blob sisters will have some play? But no one has explained to me how they're supposed to survive a real melee unit crashing into them. 10 wyches will demolish them and every blast weapon in the game will love to shoot into them.
It doesn't fix any sisters problems either. Perhaps, I dunno, a second or third troops choice? Like, would it have been so bad to makes celestians and/or sacrosancts troops? Make the elite buff characters take up fewer slots like every other new army? Maybe made one of the cannoness upgrades flying and 12 inch move?
The more I look at it the more it feels bad. They brought everything in the codex down a peg and called it internal balance. Sure; everything is balanced if everything is mediocre.
ClockworkZion wrote: I want to say Retributors were changed because of the smaller board size, but then Argent Shroud lets them run and shoot, so maybe they were nerfed so people would remember the Exorcist exists?
Then why did they also nerf the Exorcist? And make the Immolators so damned expensive for that matter.
I think that GW sees the Retributors and goes "Well, they're a Sisters Dev Squad, so we'll treat them as such!", forgetting that one of their weapons is a 12" ranged weapon, and another of their weapons has an effective range of 12". They're not Devs/Havocs by any stretch. They don't have the durability of either, or the range. And I don't think the enhanced lethality of the Multi-Melta in 9th is a good excuse, because if it's better, then you make it more expensive. You don't change the base rules for the entire unit because one weapon is better. But then again, using a pile-driver when a scalpel will do is GW's MO when it comes to rules. Gross overbalancing seems to be the only way they do things.
Oh... it just occurred to me. I guess that means Havocs might end up losing Move & Shoot. Cool.
It was pointed out that Retributors likely lost it because of the melta buff, but then again Argent Shroud says "hold my beer".
My guess is they looked at the Exorcist and felt it should be more like a Whirlwind, but honestly that's one of the ones I don't get either. Like I said, some of the changes make sense if you think about them, but I won't claim every change does.
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Mmmpi wrote: Which sucks. It takes away a big chunk of the army's flavor, needlessly nerfs the ONLY troop choice, and I'll stop there while I'm still being polite.
It only nerfs the MSU build. Honestly I've always liked my BSS at 10 because it was a good balance of extra wounds to protect key weapons for more than a turn. Now that 20 doubles your weapon options (2 special and 2 heavy -or- 4 special weapons) I think the horde unit finally has something going for it beyond taking 16 bodies to protect your weapons, Superior and Simulacrum. Then again I'd probably only run that in OML with a lot of support characters.
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drakerocket wrote: I'm pretty immediately tired of all of this 'internal balance' and 'adjust playstyles' nonsense. Sisters were pretty much in a perfect spot; they could place in tournies and get wins every now and then. Their win ratio wasn't insane, they weren't oppressive or impossible to beat, they weren't trivial/skilless to pilot.
This was a bad move. They didn't bring other orders up to compete with BR/VH, they brought both of them down significantly.
Rets and repentia were extremely powerful; but when has any codex with top tier potential not had 1-2 extremely powerful units? Like, that is kind of required to be a top level army.
But beyond them, they nerfed almost every good-maybe-makes-it-into-a-list unit. Triumph, zeraphym, seraphim, exos, immolaters, mortifiers. Imigifiers. Heck, pretty solid argument for priests/missionaries ultimately being a nerf though at least they got more interesting. Plus the entire miracle dice mechanic?
And almost nothing really got cooler or more interesting either. Sure some of the orders are a bit better, but BR still feels mandatory to make melee work and everyone else is just competing for which is the least bad for shooting. But no interesting new mechanics, new spins, no dark horse models suddenly getting to shine. You're not going to play with a new feel; you're going to play the exact same general way with fewer and worse tools for the job.
I mean, maybe the whole horde blob sisters will have some play? But no one has explained to me how they're supposed to survive a real melee unit crashing into them. 10 wyches will demolish them and every blast weapon in the game will love to shoot into them.
It doesn't fix any sisters problems either. Perhaps, I dunno, a second or third troops choice? Like, would it have been so bad to makes celestians and/or sacrosancts troops? Make the elite buff characters take up fewer slots like every other new army? Maybe made one of the cannoness upgrades flying and 12 inch move?
The more I look at it the more it feels bad. They brought everything in the codex down a peg and called it internal balance. Sure; everything is balanced if everything is mediocre.
When the only book above them in terms of power is pre-nerf Drukhari it's clear that they should have come down. I get it that people are feeling a bit sore that their combos were broken and they need to sit down and adjust their armies if they play competitively but that is literally something that happens for every army whenever an army is updated.
As for troops, I feel like making Arco flagellants troops who can't perform actions (could also not give them Obsec since they're too worried about running into battle to die) would have been interesting. It'd at least fit well with the Ministorum and wouldn't take away from the Sisters as a whole.
Mmmpi wrote: Which sucks. It takes away a big chunk of the army's flavor, needlessly nerfs the ONLY troop choice, and I'll stop there while I'm still being polite.
It only nerfs the MSU build. Honestly I've always liked my BSS at 10 because it was a good balance of extra wounds to protect key weapons for more than a turn. Now that 20 doubles your weapon options (2 special and 2 heavy -or- 4 special weapons) I think the horde unit finally has something going for it beyond taking 16 bodies to protect your weapons, Superior and Simulacrum. Then again I'd probably only run that in OML with a lot of support characters.
I should point out that 4 special/heavy weapons in twenty is still less than the current codex gets in four units of five. That's not including a combi weapon on the sargents either, which drops it from 4/8 to 5/12. Less than half the amount.
And while you took 10 girl squads, that's not what the majority of players were doing. If they made it so it was 5=2, 10=3, and 20=4, sure. The didn't do that. Besides, it's a horde unit that is just going to die to massed blasts, so it's not like most of that firepower is going to see much use anyway.
And almost nothing really got cooler or more interesting either. Sure some of the orders are a bit better, but BR still feels mandatory to make melee work and everyone else is just competing for which is the least bad for shooting. But no interesting new mechanics, new spins, no dark horse models suddenly getting to shine. You're not going to play with a new feel; you're going to play the exact same general way with fewer and worse tools for the job.
I think this is the biggest disappointment. There's nothing that really screams out to be tried. When the previous codex dropped, I was pretty excited to try out everything. Now it's like...I mean, there's new stuff and old stuff but the existing stuff is objectively worse or less interesting. No one wants a new codex that can be described as "the same but worse."
All the youtubers who seem to have gotten advanced copies look like they're tip-toeing around the codex and grasping at straws on what to play. Contrast that with the Drukhari codex where they were all "look at all this cool stuff!"
Yep. I like that it doesn't seem to be ridiculously over the top the way the last two releases were in terms of power, but the book does seems like it was written by someone who didn't really love the faction but was rather just going through the motions - or even, in places, by someone with a positive chip on their shoulder about the faction. Most of the cool unique parts of the army got nerfs, and none of the new stuff is particularly interesting or, well, new. Prayers - never seen those before! Upgrades you pay points for that give you one effect base and then a second effect once per game - hmm, that sounds familiar, but I just can't put my finger on whe...ohhh.
For that matter, Vahl is the perfect example of a design team that clearly didn't know how to make an interesting new special character with unique, compelling rules so they instead just opted for a character that does everything generically well. Paragon suits feel like another example of the "hey, we made this thing, give it some rules" syndrome. The tank is quite literally just a reskinned predator, both in looks and rules. Sacrestans are probably the only thing in the new model releases that actually feel like they fill a gap.
We've seen this a lot in AOS recently re: books that don't seem to be written with the same love and attention as other books (e.x. Slaanesh, Gravelords vs say LRL) but not in 40k, which is a bit worrying.
kurhanik wrote: So the Combat Patrol box is literally just the monopose sisters + a Rhino? Damn, that is weak, you'd think at least they'd throw in full kits. Been waiting a year and a half to see what the Start Collecting/Combat Patrol would be and this is just sad.
Well there#s no official word on sister cp. People use codex page as proof but marine/necron page didn't match.
Albeit odds are good. But expecting cp and those would be optimistic and those are coming one way or other
ClockworkZion wrote: It was pointed out that Retributors likely lost it because of the melta buff...
And, like I said, that's stupid. If something is better, you make its cost reflect its worth, or your make its worth reflect its cost. Instead, GW nerfed the overall unit, affecting their other options in a detrimental fashion. That's piss poor game design.
ClockworkZion wrote: My guess is they looked at the Exorcist and felt it should be more like a Whirlwind, but honestly that's one of the ones I don't get either. Like I said, some of the changes make sense if you think about them, but I won't claim every change does.
It just proves that, as people have been saying for years, GW plays a different form of 40K to the rest of us. If they thought that "Let's make it a Whirlwind!" was a great idea without realising that no one really takes them, and that they also put the cost of Whirlwinds up recently, then they have no right designing rules.
Zephyrm are interesting. The wound re-roll loss is sad, but since Power Swords are +1 strength that changed a lot of their math anyway. Assuming T4 target, 4+ to wound is only a few percentage points worse than re-rolling 5's. However, they gained an attack base- I think this makes them deadlier on the whole, and the change to their unique strat to being +1 to wound means they are viable in more orders than before. They do come out slightly behind on T5 and T8 targets. Still *best* in a BR, but with changes to BR you don't feel as awkward justifying them in others. They are also one point less.
They were below admech and DE. Arguably below DG. Now they got worse. Likely now below DG, necrons and probably DA.
Why would anyone feel good about that? What units everyone wished were good are now suddenly awesome? No one cared about dominions and there really were probably not many obsessed Argent shroud players.
ClockworkZion wrote: It was pointed out that Retributors likely lost it because of the melta buff...
And, like I said, that's stupid. If something is better, you make its cost reflect its worth, or your make its worth reflect its cost. Instead, GW nerfed the overall unit, affecting their other options in a detrimental fashion. That's piss poor game design.
I pointed out that with Argent Shroud around it's not like it really did anything to balance them if that was the reason.
ClockworkZion wrote: My guess is they looked at the Exorcist and felt it should be more like a Whirlwind, but honestly that's one of the ones I don't get either. Like I said, some of the changes make sense if you think about them, but I won't claim every change does.
It just proves that, as people have been saying for years, GW plays a different form of 40K to the rest of us. If they thought that "Let's make it a Whirlwind!" was a great idea without realising that no one really takes them, and that they also put the cost of Whirlwinds up recently, then they have no right designing rules.
GW has a long history of top down design. Everything they do seems to be based on how the model looks and the lore they wrote about the models and not much else. I don't hate it because they do try to dial the rules into "feeling" right for the unit, but the actual track record is real hit or miss on the balance side of things.
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drakerocket wrote: They were below admech and DE. Arguably below DG. Now they got worse. Likely now below DG, necrons and probably DA.
Why would anyone feel good about that? What units everyone wished were good are now suddenly awesome? No one cared about dominions and there really were probably not many obsessed Argent shroud players.
So I knew no one who was talking about how great Ad Mech was prior to their 9th ed codex. Like the cav units were popular but I wasn't hearing any real buzz about them. DG were definitely seeing some love from people as they got a handle on the new book though. Still a good chunk below Drukhari, but above C:SM.
And Dominions were a long time favorite of Sisters players. Just because they were bad in one codex and not popular with newer players doesn't mean people don't like them. And why are you taking shots at Argent Shroud? It did nothing wrong.
yukishiro1 wrote: The tank is quite literally just a reskinned predator, both in looks and rules.
I must have missed predators having a battle canon. Is that a forge world varient?
I mean sure it's a rhino hull with a turret strapped on, but honestly my gut reaction to it is that it's more a "bastard child" of a predator and a lemen russ.
yukishiro1 wrote: The tank is quite literally just a reskinned predator, both in looks and rules.
I must have missed predators having a battle canon. Is that a forge world varient?
I mean sure it's a rhino hull with a turret strapped on, but honestly my gut reaction to it is that it's more a "bastard child" of a predator and a lemen russ.
So what are the stats on that battle cannon? Goonhammer didn't give specifics.
yukishiro1 wrote: The tank is quite literally just a reskinned predator, both in looks and rules.
I must have missed predators having a battle canon. Is that a forge world varient?
I mean sure it's a rhino hull with a turret strapped on, but honestly my gut reaction to it is that it's more a "bastard child" of a predator and a lemen russ.
So what are the stats on that battle cannon? Goonhammer didn't give specifics.
I mean I would assume it was the standard battle canon, given the preview said battlecanon not "castigator battle canon" or something.
sadly the one preview I've seen that talks about it doesn't give me a very good look at the stats if anyone wants to zoom in on this video https://youtu.be/4IxMj7Cti_Y?t=4743 and try to get some data on it's weapons that'd be nice (ya know assuming it's possiable)
even if GWs missed a few things I gotta say it's nice to start getting NEW tools in the SOB tool kit.
yukishiro1 wrote: The tank is quite literally just a reskinned predator, both in looks and rules.
I must have missed predators having a battle canon. Is that a forge world varient?
I mean sure it's a rhino hull with a turret strapped on, but honestly my gut reaction to it is that it's more a "bastard child" of a predator and a lemen russ.
So what are the stats on that battle cannon? Goonhammer didn't give specifics.
I mean I would assume it was the standard battle canon, given the preview said battlecanon not "castigator battle canon" or something.
sadly the one preview I've seen that talks about it doesn't give me a very good look at the stats if anyone wants to zoom in on this video https://youtu.be/4IxMj7Cti_Y?t=4743 and try to get some data on it's weapons that'd be nice (ya know assuming it's possiable)
even if GWs missed a few things I gotta say it's nice to start getting NEW tools in the SOB tool kit.
Goonhammer said the battle cannon had an "eye catching stat line". That doesn't sound like the Battle Cannon stat line on a Leman Russ. Unfortunately I can't make anything out of those videos either.
Only positive change I'm seeing is that dominions got their pre-game transport move back. All the other changes look less than exciting.
damage 2 storm bolters, +1s on all flamer variants (and the ebon rose max hits with flamers is now generic), every non-bloody rose order is better. Repentia went down 2 points and got core. Penitent engine got natural advance and charge as well as +1 movement.
This all seems very minor considering just about every other unit seems to have been made objectively worse.
Oh well, guess we'll see how it plays on the board, but my army doesn't benefit from any of the above except maybe the flamer changes and the new units don't seem particularly potent either. And my poor exorcists, which I knew was coming, but still.
I cannot believe they though they could take a point of toughness, a wound, a point of AP, it's unique stratagem, AND access to rerolls and think a 15 point discount would be good enough.
It should be back at it's Beta Codex cost of 125, failing that anything more than 140 would be joke.
Moreover, don't forget that's a 2CP stratagem and you now can't streamline the number of shot with the said stratagem, you can't streamline your rolls without core... That's a lot of conditions to make it work. Also, can't use the HB and the HKM without LOS. No, it'has definitely became garbage tier.
Ok, from B&C, so not 100% sure about veracity: Castigator Battle Cannon, two profiles, both range 72 first: Heavy D6, S9, AP-3, D3, Blast. Second profile: Heavy 3d3, S6, AP-1, D1, ignore cover.
Wonder if thats what Leman Russes will be getting.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Ok, from B&C, so not 100% sure about veracity: Castigator Battle Cannon, two profiles, both range 72 first: Heavy D6, S9, AP-3, D3, Blast. Second profile: Heavy 3d3, S6, AP-1, D1, ignore cover.
Wonder if thats what Leman Russes will be getting.
Wait, the second profile doesn’t have blast?
What, some kind of flechette round? No, wait, SoB; it’ll be a canister of blessed promethium. Interesting anyway.
I don’t play sisters, but this codex seems a bit troubling.
It feels like they have an early 8th edition Marines vibe. AKA: guilleman auras busted, rest of army mediocre, forced to build everything around guilleman until he’s nerfed, then your army sucks.
This was one of my concerns. I've been slowly building sisters, but have not got round to them in my painting queue. I liked the old codex, and from what I gathered elsewhere, it was a good book and didn't need to be replaced this soon. I know that releases are dictated by models, but I can see why some people are salty. My only saving grace (seems appropriate) is that I didn't get to play with the old codex so have no preconceptions of how it should play or what I want to play.
I originally wanted to run Sacred Rose, but it seemed pretty poor in early 9th compared to others, maybe I'll give it a look now.
I do hope that this is more of a case of a total sidegrade and players will have to change how they once viewed the codex, rather than an across the board nerf.
We'll see.
Quasistellar wrote: I don’t play sisters, but this codex seems a bit troubling.
It feels like they have an early 8th edition Marines vibe. AKA: guilleman auras busted, rest of army mediocre, forced to build everything around guilleman until he’s nerfed, then your army sucks.
Replace Guilleman with Morven Vahl
The aura ability for her is honestly kind of meh. A palantine and a canoness can do the same aura for 175pts cheaper. She also doesn't really have anyone to hang out with. If she tries to buff rets and BSS squads she doesn't get to use any of her melee abilities, if she tries to buff zephyrim and sacrosancts she'll be all alone by the time she reaches her target. If she tries to buff Paragons, Paragons are bad.
She's mostly just 265 points you can't feth up. It's not like girlyman where he used to give full rerolls to hit AND wound so units were 90% more effective standing next to him then they were in any other capacity.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ShaneMarsh wrote: Zephyrm are interesting. The wound re-roll loss is sad, but since Power Swords are +1 strength that changed a lot of their math anyway. Assuming T4 target, 4+ to wound is only a few percentage points worse than re-rolling 5's. However, they gained an attack base- I think this makes them deadlier on the whole, and the change to their unique strat to being +1 to wound means they are viable in more orders than before. They do come out slightly behind on T5 and T8 targets. Still *best* in a BR, but with changes to BR you don't feel as awkward justifying them in others. They are also one point less.
Don't 'think' they'll be deadlier, just do the math. It's not reading tea leaves.
Old 3*.667*.89= 1.78 New 4*.667*.667= 1.78 Equal for lower toughness
BR Zephyrim vs T5-T7
Old 3*.667*.555= 1.11 New 4*.667*.333= .888 20% worse for higher toughness.
You'll never take them in non-bloody rose lists. Their overpriced stratagem won't change that, especially considering that even with it they do less damage than they do with JUST bloody rose.
Like every other <order> melee unit, you take bloody rose or you don't take that unit.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Ok, from B&C, so not 100% sure about veracity: Castigator Battle Cannon, two profiles, both range 72 first: Heavy D6, S9, AP-3, D3, Blast. Second profile: Heavy 3d3, S6, AP-1, D1, ignore cover.
Wonder if thats what Leman Russes will be getting.
From Mob Rule's codex coverage:
Honestly the best I could find and even then I had to make the screenshot bigger.
Those zeraphym numbers are a bit better than I thought. Given they dropped 8% in cost, it's probably close to a wash (since their cost includes other things like their bodies and mobility).
Voss wrote: Are the autocannons 4d3 shots? (it isn't quite readable)
Honestly, just make it heavy 8 and stop wasting time.
Other than AP on the solid shot, the battlecannon looks really dubious.
Mob Rules reads it right off here:
Autocannon is 48" Heavy 4d3 S7 Ap-1 2dmg
Battlecannon has two profiles :
Sanctified shell 72" Heavy S9 D6AP-3 3dmg Blast
Pyro shell 72" Heavy 3d3 S6 AP-1 1dmg Blast, ignores cover
3 Heavy Bolters on the chassis as well.
On a side note: Exorcists Missile Launcher lost Blast but since it was 3d3 it was always getting at least 3 shots so now it gains the ability to shoot things that lock it in combat at least. The conflageration missiles still have Blast though.
So it's worth pointing out that Acts of Faith are our monofaction bonus now. We can't gain Miracle Dice for any reason if we have non-Adepta Sororitas keyword models in the army (excluding Cult Imperialis, Agent of the Imperium and Unaligned keywords).
Ebon Chalice's ability doesn't hurt their ability to ally as the Rites aren't locked to mono-Sisters anymore.
beast_gts wrote: Wave 2 isn't next week (WarCom) - Gaunt’s Ghosts & the Cadian Shock Troops upgrades sprue are.
That’s the second time the Sisters release has randomly been split up with a few weeks between them, if I’m remembering rightly. Weird.
Last time it was 2 weeks back to back and 3rd wave almost 2 months later.
I like how this time they actually planned it out though:
"What should we leave out of the first wave?" "Let's skip on the tank no one will buy and the banner bearer only crusade players care about." "Brilliant!"
beast_gts wrote: Wave 2 isn't next week (WarCom) - Gaunt’s Ghosts & the Cadian Shock Troops upgrades sprue are.
That’s the second time the Sisters release has randomly been split up with a few weeks between them, if I’m remembering rightly. Weird.
Last time it was 2 weeks back to back and 3rd wave almost 2 months later.
I like how this time they actually planned it out though:
"What should we leave out of the first wave?" "Let's skip on the tank no one will buy and the banner bearer only crusade players care about." "Brilliant!"
I feel like people outside of Crusade players will like it for the utility of being able to pop all the rites at the same time at will, but you're right, it does a bit more for Crusade.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Ok, from B&C, so not 100% sure about veracity: Castigator Battle Cannon, two profiles, both range 72 first: Heavy D6, S9, AP-3, D3, Blast. Second profile: Heavy 3d3, S6, AP-1, D1, ignore cover.
Wonder if thats what Leman Russes will be getting.
despite people saying the tank is crap, not sure I agree that first round is MADE to kill Marine heavy infantry, if you're in an enviroment where you see a lot of heavy power armor infantry it'll come in handy.
beast_gts wrote: Wave 2 isn't next week (WarCom) - Gaunt’s Ghosts & the Cadian Shock Troops upgrades sprue are.
That’s the second time the Sisters release has randomly been split up with a few weeks between them, if I’m remembering rightly. Weird.
Last time it was 2 weeks back to back and 3rd wave almost 2 months later.
I like how this time they actually planned it out though:
"What should we leave out of the first wave?" "Let's skip on the tank no one will buy and the banner bearer only crusade players care about." "Brilliant!"
hopefully SOBs don't have to wait as long for their stuff as marines and 'crons had to wait for heavy intercessors and flayed ones
Gadzilla666 wrote: Ok, from B&C, so not 100% sure about veracity: Castigator Battle Cannon, two profiles, both range 72 first: Heavy D6, S9, AP-3, D3, Blast. Second profile: Heavy 3d3, S6, AP-1, D1, ignore cover.
Wonder if thats what Leman Russes will be getting.
despite people saying the tank is crap, not sure I agree that first round is MADE to kill Marine heavy infantry, if you're in an enviroment where you see a lot of heavy power armor infantry it'll come in handy.
It only kill 2-3 per turn. Doesn't feel like enough to be 'made' to kill marines.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Ok, from B&C, so not 100% sure about veracity: Castigator Battle Cannon, two profiles, both range 72 first: Heavy D6, S9, AP-3, D3, Blast. Second profile: Heavy 3d3, S6, AP-1, D1, ignore cover.
Wonder if thats what Leman Russes will be getting.
despite people saying the tank is crap, not sure I agree that first round is MADE to kill Marine heavy infantry, if you're in an enviroment where you see a lot of heavy power armor infantry it'll come in handy.
beast_gts wrote: Wave 2 isn't next week (WarCom) - Gaunt’s Ghosts & the Cadian Shock Troops upgrades sprue are.
That’s the second time the Sisters release has randomly been split up with a few weeks between them, if I’m remembering rightly. Weird.
Last time it was 2 weeks back to back and 3rd wave almost 2 months later.
I like how this time they actually planned it out though:
"What should we leave out of the first wave?" "Let's skip on the tank no one will buy and the banner bearer only crusade players care about." "Brilliant!"
hopefully SOBs don't have to wait as long for their stuff as marines and 'crons had to wait for heavy intercessors and flayed ones
The problem with the tank isn't the gun. It's the tank. T7 W11 is an awful statline. That's why people were anticipating the Castigator being bad the second it was announced. Because we all knew it would die to a single stray multimelta.
Hell, a squad of retributors or a squad of eradictors kill 2 castigators out of deepstrike on average. More with good miracle dice.
If GW wants people to take it they either have to give it a better invul or it has to be cheap enough that you can take 3 without chewing up too much of your army. 120-130pts WITH the upgraded cannon.
Old 3*.667*.89= 1.78 New 4*.667*.667= 1.78 Equal for lower toughness
BR Zephyrim vs T5-T7
Old 3*.667*.555= 1.11 New 4*.667*.333= .888 20% worse for higher toughness.
You'll never take them in non-bloody rose lists. Their overpriced stratagem won't change that, especially considering that even with it they do less damage than they do with JUST bloody rose.
Like every other <order> melee unit, you take bloody rose or you don't take that unit.
Can you relax your attitude a little, ERJAK? I'm a bit busy at times and was just making a post. You need to relax, no reason to be so biting to everyone who speaks. And as someone who just never liked BR and continued to bring them, I'll likely continue doing so.
Math wise, we'll do three scenarios: Old Zeph, Recent Zeph, Modern Zeph Squads. Understanding that the Recent Zep Squad had a near 0% chance of remaining. This is Order Agnostic- BR will of course exacerbate any math.
Old Zeph: 21 attacks, WS 3+, S3 re-rolling wounds.
Recent Zeph: 21 attacks, WS 3+, S4 re-rolling wounds.
Modern Zeph: 31 attacks, WS3+, S4 no re-rolling wounds.
Might be small math issues, doing it essentially off the top of my head at the moment.
So, Order Agnostic, the Recent Zeph Squad is clearly the best. Except anyone who kept their expectations realistic knew they would change once the Power Sword changed. The only true comparison that could be made is with the original squad, since the in-between stats come from edition weapon changes, not the unit itself. Not pictured here is the one point drop, 2 CP Stratagem for +1 to wound for *any* order that can be used in a key charge, or the BR Strategem that while not as good still works well with the 41 attacks their Zephyrim would get.
dammit wrote: you can also give them zealot for 2cp/1cp if in range of a priest.
Yep. A lot of things you can do. They are less point and click but have wider applications than before with more possible ways of buffing them. I view them mostly as a sidegrade, with a better bottom, more versatility outside one specific Order, at the cost of top-end performance that is harder to achieve.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Ok, from B&C, so not 100% sure about veracity: Castigator Battle Cannon, two profiles, both range 72 first: Heavy D6, S9, AP-3, D3, Blast. Second profile: Heavy 3d3, S6, AP-1, D1, ignore cover.
Wonder if thats what Leman Russes will be getting.
despite people saying the tank is crap, not sure I agree that first round is MADE to kill Marine heavy infantry, if you're in an enviroment where you see a lot of heavy power armor infantry it'll come in handy.
It only kill 2-3 per turn. Doesn't feel like enough to be 'made' to kill marines.
Are you assuming max shots from BLAST? Because that's the only way I'm seeing that many kills. And loyalists don't come in squads bigger than 10. So that isn't happening.
I think they did the same thing they did with loyalists: they overpriced all of the tanks. Somebody at gw just. Doesn't. Like. Tanks.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Ok, from B&C, so not 100% sure about veracity: Castigator Battle Cannon, two profiles, both range 72 first: Heavy D6, S9, AP-3, D3, Blast. Second profile: Heavy 3d3, S6, AP-1, D1, ignore cover.
Wonder if thats what Leman Russes will be getting.
despite people saying the tank is crap, not sure I agree that first round is MADE to kill Marine heavy infantry, if you're in an enviroment where you see a lot of heavy power armor infantry it'll come in handy.
It only kill 2-3 per turn. Doesn't feel like enough to be 'made' to kill marines.
Are you assuming max shots from BLAST? Because that's the only way I'm seeing that many kills. And loyalists don't come in squads bigger than 10. So that isn't happening.
I think they did the same thing they did with loyalists: they overpriced all of the tanks. Somebody at gw just. Doesn't. Like. Tanks.
I think it's more they don't want to go back to the parking lots of 5th edition, but aren't quite clicking on the idea that if you're going to make something expensive it needs durability or it won't be used.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Ok, from B&C, so not 100% sure about veracity: Castigator Battle Cannon, two profiles, both range 72 first: Heavy D6, S9, AP-3, D3, Blast. Second profile: Heavy 3d3, S6, AP-1, D1, ignore cover.
Wonder if thats what Leman Russes will be getting.
despite people saying the tank is crap, not sure I agree that first round is MADE to kill Marine heavy infantry, if you're in an enviroment where you see a lot of heavy power armor infantry it'll come in handy.
It only kill 2-3 per turn. Doesn't feel like enough to be 'made' to kill marines.
Are you assuming max shots from BLAST? Because that's the only way I'm seeing that many kills. And loyalists don't come in squads bigger than 10. So that isn't happening.
I think they did the same thing they did with loyalists: they overpriced all of the tanks. Somebody at gw just. Doesn't. Like. Tanks.
3.5 shots x (4/6) = 2.33 hits
x (5/6) = 1.94 wounds.
x (5/6) = 1.62 failed saves and dead marines.
Fine, so I was being overly generous by giving it possibly 3 dead. Still the conclusion doesn't change, the gun is bad and not a good marine killer.
Tanks and heavy vehicles would be a lot better if they bumped the toughness top end up so things like Land Raiders, Knights, and monoliths are T12, Russes and Battlewagons at 10, and Predator level vehicles at 9.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Tanks and heavy vehicles would be a lot better if they bumped the toughness top end up so things like Land Raiders, Knights, and monoliths are T12, Russes and Battlewagons at 10, and Predator level vehicles at 9.
I don't think the toughness matters as much. I mean in most cases it just means vehicles are being wounded on 5s or 6s already, it's more the amount of damage being pushed through via weight of fire that causes the problem.
Lotta salt. Interesting to read. At the end of the day, I don't think I'll worry about any of these changes. I love the models, and by the time I get them all built and painted it'll be 10th edition where they'll change the game dramatically again and everyone will be complaining about lists changing again.
AduroT wrote: So I haven’t heard, what Were all the nerfs to the Exorcist?
Lost a point of toughness and the rockets lost a pip of AP. The rockets gained ignores cover though, and the Missiles are no longer Blast which means you can give someone an 1812 Overture to the face if they tag it to stop i from shooting the Missiles.
Also all the tanks gained the Hallowed keyword which lets them pop the Thrice Blessed Hull Stat which makes a psyker in 12" who fails to cast a psychic power perils until the end of the phase for 1 CP so that's a thing I guess.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Tanks and heavy vehicles would be a lot better if they bumped the toughness top end up so things like Land Raiders, Knights, and monoliths are T12, Russes and Battlewagons at 10, and Predator level vehicles at 9.
That seems terrible to me. It doubles down on factions who either have worthwhile AT weapons (which leaves several Xenos factions and daemons out in the cold); or those that can double down on weight of fire weapons. For anyone who has easy access to high volume S7 weapons, it notably makes no difference at all.
dammit wrote: you can also give them zealot for 2cp/1cp if in range of a priest.
Yep. A lot of things you can do. They are less point and click but have wider applications than before with more possible ways of buffing them. I view them mostly as a sidegrade, with a better bottom, more versatility outside one specific Order, at the cost of top-end performance that is harder to achieve.
Yeah it turns out bloody rose zephyrim actually slap with the new strat.
dammit wrote: you can also give them zealot for 2cp/1cp if in range of a priest.
Yep. A lot of things you can do. They are less point and click but have wider applications than before with more possible ways of buffing them. I view them mostly as a sidegrade, with a better bottom, more versatility outside one specific Order, at the cost of top-end performance that is harder to achieve.
Yeah it turns out bloody rose zephyrim actually slap with the new strat.
So more proof the internet likes to bruise it's knee on its desk in response to changes? Cool.
AduroT wrote: So I haven’t heard, what Were all the nerfs to the Exorcist?
Lost a point of toughness and the rockets lost a pip of AP. The rockets gained ignores cover though, and the Missiles are no longer Blast which means you can give someone an 1812 Overture to the face if they tag it to stop i from shooting the Missiles.
Also all the tanks gained the Hallowed keyword which lets them pop the Thrice Blessed Hull Stat which makes a psyker in 12" who fails to cast a psychic power perils until the end of the phase for 1 CP so that's a thing I guess.
That’s it? I mean yeah, obviously less good, but I was expecting worse from the way people were talking.
AduroT wrote: So I haven’t heard, what Were all the nerfs to the Exorcist?
Lost a point of toughness and the rockets lost a pip of AP. The rockets gained ignores cover though, and the Missiles are no longer Blast which means you can give someone an 1812 Overture to the face if they tag it to stop i from shooting the Missiles.
Also all the tanks gained the Hallowed keyword which lets them pop the Thrice Blessed Hull Stat which makes a psyker in 12" who fails to cast a psychic power perils until the end of the phase for 1 CP so that's a thing I guess.
That’s it? I mean yeah, obviously less good, but I was expecting worse from the way people were talking.
It was already struggling to be relevant due to the way the meta has leaned hard into mid-strength D2 weapons for most of it's problems meaning that they're not doing too great so when Autocannons go from wounding them on 5s to 4s it makes people even less excited about using them.
dammit wrote: you can also give them zealot for 2cp/1cp if in range of a priest.
Yep. A lot of things you can do. They are less point and click but have wider applications than before with more possible ways of buffing them. I view them mostly as a sidegrade, with a better bottom, more versatility outside one specific Order, at the cost of top-end performance that is harder to achieve.
Yeah it turns out bloody rose zephyrim actually slap with the new strat.
So more proof the internet likes to bruise it's knee on its desk in response to changes? Cool.
IF you're running BR and IF you get the charge and IF you spend the command points to give yourself an extra 3 wounds on T5 or 8 wounds on T4 and IF the target doesn't have some form of damage mitigation like transhuman or reanimation or make your zephyrim fight last, etc.
It's like the repentia congo line. If the stars align and everything goes well, repentia will straight up delete a target. If any point of their support fails, you see a drastic reduction in damage. Granted, zephyrim require far less babysitting, but anything they charge better not be tanky or good in melee.
The CP's might be better spent on seraphim with handflamers against anything you'd want to realistically charge with zephyrim, which it looks like to me would either be T3 units (which sisters have plenty of other ways to deal with) or MSU squads of heavy weapon or snipers.
So, in short, all math points to them being worse than they were before but you have the option of making them marginally better at the cost of 2 cp. I wouldn't call that slappin', but maybe they need to be hanging around buff characters like repentia instead of going after backfield objective holders. Or possibly acting as a goon squad with Saint Celestine.
Hope I'm wrong, though. Zephyrim were something I never had a lot of luck with in the past, and it'd be nice to have a reason to use them more often.
That’s it? I mean yeah, obviously less good, but I was expecting worse from the way people were talking.
It was already struggling to be relevant due to the way the meta has leaned hard into mid-strength D2 weapons for most of it's problems meaning that they're not doing too great so when Autocannons go from wounding them on 5s to 4s it makes people even less excited about using them.
The Exorcist lost all of that for only a 10 point reduction in cost, and people were already struggling to justify it. Maybe GW thought that if they nerfed all the other firepower in the list (specifically retributors) that exorcists would look more attractive.
Like the Castigator, the Exorcist statline is...okay. It's not terrible, and it could get work done, but they're both overpriced for the amount of punishment they'd be able to put out (if any) before they're wiped off the table. Three exorcists is a quarter of your army and in the land of D3+3 anti tank weapons, would you really want to invest that much in that fragile a unit? Realistically, the only targets for anti tank weaponry will be Paragons, Immolators, Exorcists, and Castigators, and boy do those things get killed really good by those kinds of weapons.
dammit wrote: you can also give them zealot for 2cp/1cp if in range of a priest.
Yep. A lot of things you can do. They are less point and click but have wider applications than before with more possible ways of buffing them. I view them mostly as a sidegrade, with a better bottom, more versatility outside one specific Order, at the cost of top-end performance that is harder to achieve.
Yeah it turns out bloody rose zephyrim actually slap with the new strat.
So more proof the internet likes to bruise it's knee on its desk in response to changes? Cool.
IF you're running BR and IF you get the charge and IF you spend the command points to give yourself an extra 3 wounds on T5 or 8 wounds on T4 and IF the target doesn't have some form of damage mitigation like transhuman or reanimation or make your zephyrim fight last, etc.
It's like the repentia congo line. If the stars align and everything goes well, repentia will straight up delete a target. If any point of their support fails, you see a drastic reduction in damage. Granted, zephyrim require far less babysitting, but anything they charge better not be tanky or good in melee.
The CP's might be better spent on seraphim with handflamers against anything you'd want to realistically charge with zephyrim, which it looks like to me would either be T3 units (which sisters have plenty of other ways to deal with) or MSU squads of heavy weapon or snipers.
So, in short, all math points to them being worse than they were before but you have the option of making them marginally better at the cost of 2 cp. I wouldn't call that slappin', but maybe they need to be hanging around buff characters like repentia instead of going after backfield objective holders. Or possibly acting as a goon squad with Saint Celestine.
Hope I'm wrong, though. Zephyrim were something I never had a lot of luck with in the past, and it'd be nice to have a reason to use them more often.
They got a minor nerf at worst which is fine. Repentia have always been the epitome of glass cannon in this game dying to a stiff breeze and they still fit that role nicely. Plus there are more sources of the +1 attack buff you can pair with them.
So, in short, all math points to them being worse than they were before but you have the option of making them marginally better at the cost of 2 cp. I wouldn't call that slappin', but maybe they need to be hanging around buff characters like repentia instead of going after backfield objective holders. Or possibly acting as a goon squad with Saint Celestine.
if you can get a war hymn off, 17 auto wounds, with 34 more rolls. Without it, 13 auto wounds with 27 more rolls. All at ap-4.
Of course you need to get a sodding charge off. That's how the charge phase works. If only there was a way to get rerolls on it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In general, zealot + tear them down + passion is 30% of all hits become an auto-wound, plus a wound roll, plus whatever non 6s hit.
zephyrim get a lot of hit dice and s4 benefits most from auto-wound.
Battlecannon has two profiles :
Sanctified shell 72" Heavy S9 D6AP-3 3dmg Blast
Pyro shell 72" Heavy 3d3 S6 AP-1 1dmg Blast, ignores cover
What is funny that new orkstodes laugh at weapon that was specifically made to counter them. S9 no longer wounds them on 2+ so weaker pyro shell will be better 100% of the time against them - because t-shirts make you immune to big explosions. Or something. Fluff, what's that
Battlecannon has two profiles :
Sanctified shell 72" Heavy S9 D6AP-3 3dmg Blast
Pyro shell 72" Heavy 3d3 S6 AP-1 1dmg Blast, ignores cover
What is funny that new orkstodes laugh at weapon that was specifically made to counter them. S9 no longer wounds them on 2+ so weaker pyro shell will be better 100% of the time against them - because t-shirts make you immune to big explosions. Or something. Fluff, what's that
I feel like the S9 shell is more for things like Custodes or Gravis.
Battlecannon has two profiles :
Sanctified shell 72" Heavy S9 D6AP-3 3dmg Blast
Pyro shell 72" Heavy 3d3 S6 AP-1 1dmg Blast, ignores cover
What is funny that new orkstodes laugh at weapon that was specifically made to counter them. S9 no longer wounds them on 2+ so weaker pyro shell will be better 100% of the time against them - because t-shirts make you immune to big explosions. Or something. Fluff, what's that
Thats...true of old orks as well. Why would you fire the AT round at an infantry squad? 6 shots vs 9 shots. Wounding on 2+ vs wounding on 3+ means 5 wounds rather than 6. AP1 and ignores cover is more than sufficient.
Wherever you got the idea that AT rounds were specifically made to counter basic ork infantry, it's wrong.
AduroT wrote: So I haven’t heard, what Were all the nerfs to the Exorcist?
Lost a point of toughness and the rockets lost a pip of AP. The rockets gained ignores cover though, and the Missiles are no longer Blast which means you can give someone an 1812 Overture to the face if they tag it to stop i from shooting the Missiles.
Also all the tanks gained the Hallowed keyword which lets them pop the Thrice Blessed Hull Stat which makes a psyker in 12" who fails to cast a psychic power perils until the end of the phase for 1 CP so that's a thing I guess.
That’s it? I mean yeah, obviously less good, but I was expecting worse from the way people were talking.
Yeah, it's not like they were meta-defining before, so I don't know why the salt. Questionable unit is still questionable, just perhaps a bit more so. Honestly with the newly changed Devastating Refrain stratagem allowing it to ignore LOS, I think bringing one (and only one) as a backfield objective holder or something could have value. Probably not the most optimal thing you could do, but it's a thing.
dammit wrote: you can also give them zealot for 2cp/1cp if in range of a priest.
Yep. A lot of things you can do. They are less point and click but have wider applications than before with more possible ways of buffing them. I view them mostly as a sidegrade, with a better bottom, more versatility outside one specific Order, at the cost of top-end performance that is harder to achieve.
Yeah it turns out bloody rose zephyrim actually slap with the new strat.
So more proof the internet likes to bruise it's knee on its desk in response to changes? Cool.
IF you're running BR and IF you get the charge and IF you spend the command points to give yourself an extra 3 wounds on T5 or 8 wounds on T4 and IF the target doesn't have some form of damage mitigation like transhuman or reanimation or make your zephyrim fight last, etc.
It's like the repentia congo line. If the stars align and everything goes well, repentia will straight up delete a target. If any point of their support fails, you see a drastic reduction in damage. Granted, zephyrim require far less babysitting, but anything they charge better not be tanky or good in melee.
The CP's might be better spent on seraphim with handflamers against anything you'd want to realistically charge with zephyrim, which it looks like to me would either be T3 units (which sisters have plenty of other ways to deal with) or MSU squads of heavy weapon or snipers.
So, in short, all math points to them being worse than they were before but you have the option of making them marginally better at the cost of 2 cp. I wouldn't call that slappin', but maybe they need to be hanging around buff characters like repentia instead of going after backfield objective holders. Or possibly acting as a goon squad with Saint Celestine.
Hope I'm wrong, though. Zephyrim were something I never had a lot of luck with in the past, and it'd be nice to have a reason to use them more often.
They got a minor nerf at worst which is fine. Repentia have always been the epitome of glass cannon in this game dying to a stiff breeze and they still fit that role nicely. Plus there are more sources of the +1 attack buff you can pair with them.
Blatantly false. Firstly you can only give 1 unit per turn +1 attack, secondly Hymns activate in the hero phase which means they don't work on transport, outflank, or deepstrike. Which means you'll never be able to use them on zephyrim or repentia. They'll die long before your next command phase rolls around.
Also I love how people look at some stratagems and are like 'well it's fine, because if you spend FOUR CP you can get 3% more damage than they used to do without any bonuses' like that's not hilariously terrible.
ERJAK wrote: Blatantly false. Firstly you can only give 1 unit per turn +1 attack, secondly Hymns activate in the hero phase which means they don't work on transport, outflank, or deepstrike. Which means you'll never be able to use them on zephyrim or repentia. They'll die long before your next command phase rolls around.
Also I love how people look at some stratagems and are like 'well it's fine, because if you spend FOUR CP you can get 3% more damage than they used to do without any bonuses' like that's not hilariously terrible.
Fiery Oratory strat bypasses command phase locking of hymns in exactly the same manner as marines Commanding Oratory, but for 1cp less - so positioning is the only major limiting factor (i.e. probably not getting it on Zephyrim as easily as Repentia out of a transport).
Without spending any CP, the extra attack and 1 point discount to Zephyrim mean they are approximately equal to what they were previously (against softer targets), and slightly weaker to chopping tanks in half (for which melta or Repentia are still the preferred option anyway).
To me, Zephyrim seem fine as they are with no additional buffs other than maybe a miracle dice charge out of deepstrike.
Battlecannon has two profiles :
Sanctified shell 72" Heavy S9 D6AP-3 3dmg Blast
Pyro shell 72" Heavy 3d3 S6 AP-1 1dmg Blast, ignores cover
What is funny that new orkstodes laugh at weapon that was specifically made to counter them. S9 no longer wounds them on 2+ so weaker pyro shell will be better 100% of the time against them - because t-shirts make you immune to big explosions. Or something. Fluff, what's that
A S6 AP-1 D1 weapon, better at killing T5 W1 Sv6+ orks than a S9 AP-3 weapon? Wild.
Now you're gonna tell me you take heavy bolters instead of lascannons to shoot at orks.
Battlecannon has two profiles :
Sanctified shell 72" Heavy S9 D6AP-3 3dmg Blast
Pyro shell 72" Heavy 3d3 S6 AP-1 1dmg Blast, ignores cover
What is funny that new orkstodes laugh at weapon that was specifically made to counter them. S9 no longer wounds them on 2+ so weaker pyro shell will be better 100% of the time against them - because t-shirts make you immune to big explosions. Or something. Fluff, what's that
Ummm...anti tank weapon being worse at killing infantry than anti infantry weapon? Gee who would have thought.
Guess you shoot lascannons at guard infantry and wonder why you kill less than guy that fires punisher cannon. BUT I HAVE S9!!!
Lammia wrote: Did the Exocist keep all it's wounds? Misslies all their AP?
Conflageration Rockets lost a point of AP, Missiles kept their AP, oh and it now has 11 wounds.
Missiles lost AP as well.
Good catch. Trying to read screenshots of codex pages and they aren't all crisp and clean.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ERJAK wrote: Blatantly false. Firstly you can only give 1 unit per turn +1 attack, secondly Hymns activate in the hero phase which means they don't work on transport, outflank, or deepstrike. Which means you'll never be able to use them on zephyrim or repentia. They'll die long before your next command phase rolls around.
Also I love how people look at some stratagems and are like 'well it's fine, because if you spend FOUR CP you can get 3% more damage than they used to do without any bonuses' like that's not hilariously terrible.
Honestly I've been told for editions that Repentia were bad but a unit of them in my lists has always paid off, so forgive me if I don't buy into the idea that now that they're not setting the world on fire good that they're unplayable.
Why does pointing out flaws in the new codex, and the logic of some people posting about it make me an awful poster?
Or do you consider everyone who disagrees with you, particularly when you come within a whisker of being insulting about it, to be 'awful'?
On topic:
Yes random chance exists. In this specific case it exists where it didn't before. It's a 50/50 to get the war hymn off. That's not the same as automatic, and it certainly isn't reliable.
Same with stacking stratagems. Great you can get units up to their current output...at the cost of 3+ Command points. That's hardly a small cost. And that takes away from the opportunity costs of doing something else with those CP.
So no, pointing out obvious flaws in your logic doesn't make me awful. You sniping about it however starts you down that path yourself.
dammit wrote: So there's a rider on faith and fury that I hadn't paid attention to.
You don't count has having used an act of faith for the hit roll. So for 1cp and 2 miracle die, you can miracle the hit, wound and damage.
Not quite. You use it after using a miracle die for the hit roll and then reuse the same die for the wound roll without counting as using a second act of Faith.
Faith and Fury is vastly improved. The difference in 1CP I think brings it into the arsenal. 6 to hit in the face with that melta in overwatch? May as well Faith and Fury it. Inferno Pistols as well.
Curiously, do MD of 6 count as "unmodified hit rolls of 6"? Makes things a bit more interesting.
Purifying Tempest wrote: Faith and Fury is vastly improved. The difference in 1CP I think brings it into the arsenal. 6 to hit in the face with that melta in overwatch? May as well Faith and Fury it. Inferno Pistols as well.
Curiously, do MD of 6 count as "unmodified hit rolls of 6"? Makes things a bit more interesting.
Like the most miniscule of boosts, but I guess it is worth pointing out now that Sacred Rose order strat for exploding 6's in the shooting phase now affects all weapons - not exclusively bolt. Weave in some melta weapons and camp 6's to get 2 automatic hits with that strat from like a multi-melta or something. Don't think it is worth building an army around, but a nice perk for that order.
Edit: Since we're on the topic of Faith and Fury - what happens when you use Faith and Fury to pass a 6 to hit onto the wound roll... and the initial hit roll spawns an additional hit, like via Sacred Rose? Is it 2 hits, 1 auto-wound, or does the second hit still see that original 6 to hit and Faith and Fury being used?
Purifying Tempest wrote: Like the most miniscule of boosts, but I guess it is worth pointing out now that Sacred Rose order strat for exploding 6's in the shooting phase now affects all weapons - not exclusively bolt. Weave in some melta weapons and camp 6's to get 2 automatic hits with that strat from like a multi-melta or something. Don't think it is worth building an army around, but a nice perk for that order.
Edit: Since we're on the topic of Faith and Fury - what happens when you use Faith and Fury to pass a 6 to hit onto the wound roll... and the initial hit roll spawns an additional hit, like via Sacred Rose? Is it 2 hits, 1 auto-wound, or does the second hit still see that original 6 to hit and Faith and Fury being used?
I thought they FAQ'd a similar ability in another army to not get procs from automatic hits/wounds, or something. I can't remember the specifics though.
Yeah, they’ve ruled that the bonus hit is basically a separate attack with no defined hit roll. There was a very brief period where it was ruled to also be a 6, but Marines immediately busted that with rapid fire weapons causing two auto wounds on a six, and they reversed it pretty quickly.
I thought about it overnight and came to the same conclusion. Still, fairly decent trick for Sacred Rose that can be back-pocketed. Don't think it'll be meta-defining or anything, but can just be another variable your opponent may not be able to predict when they're doing the head crunch leading to opportunities to up the efficiency out of your units.
The recycling of dice from sacred rose is much better now as well.
Now 50% on every miracle dice, rather than a 1/3 chance to get one from an act of faith. So a charge has 75% of returning at least one, and you do have a chance to recycle the beacon of faith dice into a global dice. Can't do it on incensor cherubs though, because they give you cherub dice now, not miracle dice.
There's a lot of this codex that's pushing me into a two-detachment setup and sacred rose is definitely competing for one of them.
dammit wrote: The recycling of dice from sacred rose is much better now as well.
Now 50% on every miracle dice, rather than a 1/3 chance to get one from an act of faith. So a charge has 75% of returning at least one, and you do have a chance to recycle the beacon of faith dice into a global dice. Can't do it on incensor cherubs though, because they give you cherub dice now, not miracle dice.
There's a lot of this codex that's pushing me into a two-detachment setup and sacred rose is definitely competing for one of them.
I'm still really sour on throwing away CP for multiple/specialist detachments. I think the CP has become too valuable to toss away unless you're getting something absolutely game-shattering. I guess maybe there will be room for things like battalion/patrol, but I think that CP is still going to be our most limited resource and we should put a premium on spending them.
And looking through what we can do, I'm not seeing 17CPs worth of in-game strats, Especially with argent shroud rerolls (worth up to 5 over the game) and/or recovering some MD generation back.
Storm of retribution's gone, that was a CP sink. Advance and charge is gone, theres another. Deadly descent isn't an every-game thing any more. Fight again is gone.
A lot of the replacements are situational and/or cheaper. I don't look at that list and think 'I absolutely need to start with a tonne of CP.' If argent doesn't work out, or I can't claw back the MD then sure i'll revisit this thought.
Interesting another Blackstone fortress model has got 40K rules with Pious Vorne getting options in the Sister's book, and Daedalosus in the AdMech one.
Wonder if we'll see Imperial Agents to bring in the Rogue traders soon.
Tastyfish wrote: Interesting another Blackstone fortress model has got 40K rules with Pious Vorne getting options in the Sister's book, and Daedalosus in the AdMech one.
Wonder if we'll see Imperial Agents to bring in the Rogue traders soon.
Been waiting for Codex Imperial Agents since 1995 or so...
Tastyfish wrote: Interesting another Blackstone fortress model has got 40K rules with Pious Vorne getting options in the Sister's book, and Daedalosus in the AdMech one.
Do you mean that Pious Vorne's model is now a generic choice for the Sisters? That's kinda cool.
Wonder if we'll see Imperial Agents to bring in the Rogue traders soon.
They did make it sound like Talons of the Emperor are going to be a thing going forward, and if that isn't a good spot for Rogue Traders and Inquisitors...then I do not know what would be.
Tastyfish wrote: Interesting another Blackstone fortress model has got 40K rules with Pious Vorne getting options in the Sister's book, and Daedalosus in the AdMech one.
Do you mean that Pious Vorne's model is now a generic choice for the Sisters? That's kinda cool.
Wonder if we'll see Imperial Agents to bring in the Rogue traders soon.
They did make it sound like Talons of the Emperor are going to be a thing going forward, and if that isn't a good spot for Rogue Traders and Inquisitors...then I do not know what would be.
talons of the emperor refers to custodes/sisters of silence. making it a catch all book for rogue traders etc would dilute it. frankly rogue traders could easily get their own codex.
"Talons of the Emperor" is the name for the personal forces of the Emperor during the Great Crusade, hence its application to Custodes and Sisters of Silence.
The Inquisition didn't exist at that time. Rogue Traders did, and some of their Letters of Appointment were signed by the Emperor himself or the Primarchs.
Argument could definitely be made for those two factions to get placed into the Talons of the Emperor as a 'Big Faction Book' of sorts.
Kanluwen wrote: "Talons of the Emperor" is the name for the personal forces of the Emperor during the Great Crusade, hence its application to Custodes and Sisters of Silence.
The Inquisition didn't exist at that time. Rogue Traders did, and some of their Letters of Appointment were signed by the Emperor himself or the Primarchs.
Argument could definitely be made for those two factions to get placed into the Talons of the Emperor as a 'Big Faction Book' of sorts.
yes except it's a poor arguement. they're not talons of the emperor. they're something else.
and rogue traders really do have eneugh rich background to have their own codex there's no reason to randomly toss one or two mini's in a codex that otherwise doesn't fit.
That's cool and all, but what really makes Rogue Traders worthy of their own book? They're basically just Inquisitors with goofier hats.
Using "Talons of the Emperor" as a way to bring in some of these weirder, esoteric forces without bloating the Imperium faction too much or just doing half-cocked "Guard but not really Guard" armies would be far preferable to the alternative.
Kanluwen wrote: That's cool and all, but what really makes Rogue Traders worthy of their own book?
They're basically just Inquisitors with goofier hats.
Using "Talons of the Emperor" as a way to bring in some of these weirder, esoteric forces without bloating the Imperium faction too much or just doing half-cocked "Guard but not really Guard" armies would be far preferable to the alternative.
Because they're not fething talons of the emperor? seriously, talons of the emperor means very specificly the custodes and the sisters of silence whom fought beside the emperor as her personal legion during the great crusade.
It is not "random gak that won't fit anywhere else"
hell the inqusition is a perfect place to bundle them together, since you're right, mechanicly they'd be very similer. powerful individuals with a excentric collection of forces in tow
Tastyfish wrote: Interesting another Blackstone fortress model has got 40K rules with Pious Vorne getting options in the Sister's book, and Daedalosus in the AdMech one.
Wonder if we'll see Imperial Agents to bring in the Rogue traders soon.
Been waiting for Codex Imperial Agents since 1995 or so...
So maybe don't hold your breath.
I actually bought the book that GW produced at the end of 7th... last GW book that I may ever buy, honestly.
Arguably, we won't see rules for Rogue Traders again unless they're getting a release outside of BSF - the concept of an Imperial Agents book to tidy up the =][=, the Assassins and (potentially) Rogue Traders into one book (assuming Custodes/SoS are done as Talons of the Emperor, which has been mentioned) would be a good one, I think.
Crusade content for =][= and/or Rogue Traders has the potential to be very interesting. Assassins, notsomuch...
Just seen on Twitter that one games store (Alchemists Workshops) was sent a load of the last Sisters codex for release tomorrow, not the new one. Oops!
ImAGeek wrote: Just seen on Twitter that one games store (Alchemists Workshops) was sent a load of the last Sisters codex for release tomorrow, not the new one. Oops!
ImAGeek wrote: Just seen on Twitter that one games store (Alchemists Workshops) was sent a load of the last Sisters codex for release tomorrow, not the new one. Oops!
ImAGeek wrote: Just seen on Twitter that one games store (Alchemists Workshops) was sent a load of the last Sisters codex for release tomorrow, not the new one. Oops!
Wow, how on earth does that even happen. I feel bad for the store.
Could be them doing the whoopsie. Or a moments distraction at GW.
Still not as bad as the 2010 version of the Nid Codex, which came back with the new cover, but old contents.
Yeah, that was hilarious. Except for everyone that got one. Or are they rare collector’s items now?
Anyway, I can also see this being a mistake in the order. Not hard to do if the member of staff doing the order doesn’t pay attention to GW games and looks up the old code not realising there’s a new one.
Automatically Appended Next Post: More importantly, is anyone else kinda mad they made Canonesses one/detachment like Captains now?
Mr_Rose wrote: Has anyone heard of any other stores receiving the wrong codex?
I know mine got the right ones.
My store flat out hasn't gotten anything so far.
Six people have pre-ordered stuff, and we're told it's likely that we could only receive two to three of each pre-order item.
That's weird. My store ended up getting the kind of stock they normally do pre pandemic times, which was probably 50+ boxes of each item, and tons of dexes. Still lagging behind in a lot of other army stock though.
Argh, why are Palatines so limited? If you want to sell many GW, add a second frame with some options. Like a jump pack, the other pistols, a drawn sword, some holsters…
Don’t just arbitrarily restrict canonesses to one/detachment.
Mr_Rose wrote: Argh, why are Palatines so limited? If you want to sell many GW, add a second frame with some options. Like a jump pack, the other pistols, a drawn sword, some holsters…
Don’t just arbitrarily restrict canonesses to one/detachment.
It's not arbitrary. It's in line with Commanders, Captians and other leaders.
More importantly, is anyone else kinda mad they made Canonesses one/detachment like Captains now?
Nah it was inevitable so no point getting mad. We have known this will happen for like a year.
Luckily enough hq choices it won't be in game issue and makes thematically sense
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr_Rose wrote: Argh, why are Palatines so limited? If you want to sell many GW, add a second frame with some options. Like a jump pack, the other pistols, a drawn sword, some holsters…
Don’t just arbitrarily restrict canonesses to one/detachment.
So basically you want to pay like 50% for the character(you basically doubled cost for gw).
And sisters aren't snowflakes so they get same treatment as rest.
Or mod one of the “special” sisters like Tariana Palos; that pose would totally rock a plasma pistol and power sword.
The problem I have is that they have no options, which, yes, is par for the course these days, but it still sucks.
I mean, maybe they don’t want to give them all the canoness options (I can see Null Rods, for example, being rare and expensive, and they aren’t the right rank to have a stick of power) but a Brazier option would be cool and on-theme. Same for the other pistols.
The model itself is also posed in a way that would look pretty good with a jump pack too.
To be honest 40k is becoming less and less about " your guys " and more and more about " the only option you have guys ". Which is a damn shame as options and choices for creation was what I really loved about this game when I started playing. It gave it so much life. The models might look so much better these days, subjectively, but the lack of choice and interesting set ups really is a negative for a creative hobby.
my store, a GW store didn't get most of it's pre-orders in, hopefully next weekend but it's annoying that GW can't fill pre-orders ontime. especially as GW stores are given a shipment of actual stuff, so you're actually screwed by pre-ordering
dammit wrote: The recycling of dice from sacred rose is much better now as well.
Now 50% on every miracle dice, rather than a 1/3 chance to get one from an act of faith. So a charge has 75% of returning at least one, and you do have a chance to recycle the beacon of faith dice into a global dice. Can't do it on incensor cherubs though, because they give you cherub dice now, not miracle dice.
There's a lot of this codex that's pushing me into a two-detachment setup and sacred rose is definitely competing for one of them.
Mitch Beard from the Sister Act Podcast said that the math works out to something like a 100% increase on MD over the game for SR, so if you like them MD that is definitely an option.
It's all because the recycled dice themselves can be recycled.
When you math it out, because 1 becomes 0.5 on average, which in turn becomes 0.25, you get the classic infinite series:
1 + 1/2 + 1/4 +1/8... which does have a limit at 2.
So yeah. 200% of original.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's the same way that a 6+++ is a 20% boost to survivability, despite only being a 16.7% chance, because the wound that is saved has a 16.7% chance to be saved again.
The series 1 + 16/100 + (16/100)^2... must have a limit of 1.2 (turns out its 1.19, close enough)
dammit wrote: It's all because the recycled dice themselves can be recycled.
When you math it out, because 1 becomes 0.5 on average, which in turn becomes 0.25, you get the classic infinite series:
1 + 1/2 + 1/4 +1/8... which does have a limit at 2.
So yeah. 200% of original.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's the same way that a 6+++ is a 20% boost to survivability, despite only being a 16.7% chance, because the wound that is saved has a 16.7% chance to be saved again.
The series 1 + 16/100 + (16/100)^2... must have a limit of 1.2 (turns out its 1.19, close enough)
Glad to see someone else do the math. I wasn't going to bother to try and do it.
Looks like it's still mum as to when they are releasing the rest of the new wave of Sisters stuff. Just the Castigator, Aestred and Agathae, and the Patrol set left, right?
ZergSmasher wrote: Looks like it's still mum as to when they are releasing the rest of the new wave of Sisters stuff. Just the Castigator, Aestred and Agathae, and the Patrol set left, right?
Unless there's a suprise cooked up like a new missionary yeah.
Mr_Rose wrote: Argh, why are Palatines so limited? If you want to sell many GW, add a second frame with some options. Like a jump pack, the other pistols, a drawn sword, some holsters…
Don’t just arbitrarily restrict canonesses to one/detachment.
The old days are over... Back to cookie cutter codex's...
Mr_Rose wrote: Don’t just arbitrarily restrict canonesses to one/detachment.
Is it arbitrary, though?
I mean, it's happening with all the other factions, and it never felt out of place there. Why would a Marine force have two Captains? Why would two Nurgle Lords tolerate one another's presence? When the Orks arrive, you think it'll be possible to bring two Warbosses?
Mr_Rose wrote: Don’t just arbitrarily restrict canonesses to one/detachment.
Is it arbitrary, though?
I mean, it's happening with all the other factions, and it never felt out of place there. Why would a Marine force have two Captains? Why would two Nurgle Lords tolerate one another's presence? When the Orks arrive, you think it'll be possible to bring two Warbosses?
Why would Sisters be exempt from that?
especially as we got Palintine's with the new codex so we've got 2 generic HQ options even if you refuse to use "non AS units"
H.B.M.C. wrote: I just wish that Sisters had "Generic Leader Warsuit" and "Generic Leader Floating Pulpit" as options.
me too, but I think every army should have a ":terminator and jump captain" varient if they have them, and paragorn warsuits are BASICLY the SOBs answer to termies IMHO.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Saw the Warsuits and Sacristans up close today. Very nice kits.
Glad to hear that, still waiting on mine to come around but the shield and mace ladies looked aces, and the warsuits I just hoped would be great seeing them in person.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Saw the Warsuits and Sacristans up close today. Very nice kits.
Glad to hear that, still waiting on mine to come around but the shield and mace ladies looked aces, and the warsuits I just hoped would be great seeing them in person.
I built a unit of Sacristans with halberds over the weekend - they look sooo good. Started assembling a unit of Numdams too - better in the hand than on a screen, although I'm going to try and add candles, seals and as much other religious gubbins as I can to make them look less sleek.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Saw the Warsuits and Sacristans up close today. Very nice kits.
Glad to hear that, still waiting on mine to come around but the shield and mace ladies looked aces, and the warsuits I just hoped would be great seeing them in person.
Waiting on mine to show up. Ordered them right when it went up, had to contact GW for them to tell me my order got bumped and ill have to wait for the restock.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Saw the Warsuits and Sacristans up close today. Very nice kits.
Glad to hear that, still waiting on mine to come around but the shield and mace ladies looked aces, and the warsuits I just hoped would be great seeing them in person.
Waiting on mine to show up. Ordered them right when it went up, had to contact GW for them to tell me my order got bumped and ill have to wait for the restock.
I got a question, probably silly and I can infer the answer.. BUT
I am getting a Sister Suit box in the mail tomorrow, (I think) and the images online show that they are all armed with 2 maces and 1 sword, and one each of the Heavy Trinity.
Does that ASSUME then that there is only one of each heavy weapon arm in the box, so if I WANTED to run the Mace arms with MultiMelta arms, I am gonna need to trade? I planned to run them as an identically armed group
Or is there a rule that these dont need to be in a "unit" in 9th ed, and each one can have a dedicated role?
porkuslime wrote: I got a question, probably silly and I can infer the answer.. BUT
I am getting a Sister Suit box in the mail tomorrow, (I think) and the images online show that they are all armed with 2 maces and 1 sword, and one each of the Heavy Trinity.
Does that ASSUME then that there is only one of each heavy weapon arm in the box, so if I WANTED to run the Mace arms with MultiMelta arms, I am gonna need to trade? I planned to run them as an identically armed group
Or is there a rule that these dont need to be in a "unit" in 9th ed, and each one can have a dedicated role?
Looking at the sprue pics, i'm pretty sure there's three of each heavy weapon. And three of each melee weapon, too.
porkuslime wrote: I got a question, probably silly and I can infer the answer.. BUT
I am getting a Sister Suit box in the mail tomorrow, (I think) and the images online show that they are all armed with 2 maces and 1 sword, and one each of the Heavy Trinity.
Does that ASSUME then that there is only one of each heavy weapon arm in the box, so if I WANTED to run the Mace arms with MultiMelta arms, I am gonna need to trade? I planned to run them as an identically armed group
Or is there a rule that these dont need to be in a "unit" in 9th ed, and each one can have a dedicated role?
Looking at the sprue pics, i'm pretty sure there's three of each heavy weapon. And three of each melee weapon, too.
Amazing. Post office got them here a day early. Musta known I had questions.
Wha-Mu-077 yer right! Triple weapon load out. You were off on the close combat weapons. 3 maces and *4* swords. Lol
Any dates on when the combat patrol is going to drop (I heard sometime in July)
That's what I need to finish out my army - 1 more PenEngine and some more bolter marines
porkuslime wrote: I got a question, probably silly and I can infer the answer.. BUT
I am getting a Sister Suit box in the mail tomorrow, (I think) and the images online show that they are all armed with 2 maces and 1 sword, and one each of the Heavy Trinity.
Does that ASSUME then that there is only one of each heavy weapon arm in the box, so if I WANTED to run the Mace arms with MultiMelta arms, I am gonna need to trade? I planned to run them as an identically armed group
Or is there a rule that these dont need to be in a "unit" in 9th ed, and each one can have a dedicated role?
Looking at the sprue pics, i'm pretty sure there's three of each heavy weapon. And three of each melee weapon, too.
Amazing. Post office got them here a day early. Musta known I had questions.
Wha-Mu-077 yer right! Triple weapon load out. You were off on the close combat weapons. 3 maces and *4* swords. Lol
the box is a bit odd, we're giving an option to build one of the suits as a normal paragorn or a sister superior, BUT we can only deploy these girls in squads of 3. guess it does mean future proofing so there's that
I imagine our second wave of stuff'll be out with the campaign book yeah, which is kinda dissappointing TBH. Woulda made more sense to hold off on Vhal until then, but given how good she is I'm glad we got her immediatly
Forge the Narative 
