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Named character on a 60mm base?

 GaroRobe wrote:
A bit salty that the Combat Patrol is the $200 SOB army boxset. Especially since it includes a Rhino (no codex, but still) for less. But I guess it's nice for other people to get a chance to pick up those models.

The box contained a special codex (based on LE pricing that'd be $80 USD) and cards (currently priced at $25 USD) and the cheapest set kf "Miarcle Dice" ever seen.

So yeah the models being around $100USD sounds about right for GW.

 lord marcus wrote:
My local just posted prices for the new sisters stuff.

How the hell is Morven Vahl (spelling may be off) worth $55

Abaddon and Gulliman are $60, Ghaz is $65, so, about standard for a Supreme Commander model?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
Personally, I find the shield attached to the side of a pistol far more egregious than one handed halberds. I think, if I was going to use these minis, I’d ditch the shields altogether and give them new left arms, either empty handed or holding pistols.

It's funny how NOW it's a problem when we've had a Combat Shield in the Marine Command Squad for how long now?

I’m not sure what you’re insinuating, but it’s always been a stupid idea. It’s a stupid idea now and it was an equally stupid idea back then. Why would you think I was okay with crappy old marines doing when I’ve said I think it’s a stupid idea?

 lord marcus wrote:
My local just posted prices for the new sisters stuff.

How the hell is Morven Vahl (spelling may be off) worth $55

That's standard GW pricing for modern kits. Characters are always overpriced hugely.

It's the Sacresants that are really incredible: $55 for 5 models that each cost 14 points. Ooph. That's almost Acolyte Hybrid level milking. Though I guess not much worse than Seraphim. The whole army is premium priced, it is not an army for someone on a budget. Vahl is actually the best deal in the whole book price-wise.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 lord marcus wrote:
My local just posted prices for the new sisters stuff.

How the hell is Morven Vahl (spelling may be off) worth $55

Abaddon and Gulliman are $60, Ghaz is $65, so, about standard for a Supreme Commander model?

yeah and she's easly on par with any of those 3 characters both in terms of model detail and sheer hitting power, if people can justify any of those 3 they can justify her

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 GaroRobe wrote:
A bit salty that the Combat Patrol is the $200 SOB army boxset. Especially since it includes a Rhino (no codex, but still) for less. But I guess it's nice for other people to get a chance to pick up those models.

The box contained a special codex (based on LE pricing that'd be $80 USD) and cards (currently priced at $25 USD) and the cheapest set kf "Miarcle Dice" ever seen.

So yeah the models being around $100USD sounds about right for GW.

That's pretty much how I justified myself buying the boxset

It would have been nice if those "miracle dice" were the ones they just released though. Instead of, you know, just plain dice

So the Combat Patrol box is literally just the monopose sisters + a Rhino? Damn, that is weak, you'd think at least they'd throw in full kits. Been waiting a year and a half to see what the Start Collecting/Combat Patrol would be and this is just sad.

dammit wrote:

Altima wrote:
Any GOOD news out of the codex?

Only positive change I'm seeing is that dominions got their pre-game transport move back. All the other changes look less than exciting.

damage 2 storm bolters, +1s on all flamer variants (and the ebon rose max hits with flamers is now generic), every non-bloody rose order is better. Repentia went down 2 points and got core. Penitent engine got natural advance and charge as well as +1 movement.

This all seems very minor considering just about every other unit seems to have been made objectively worse.

Oh well, guess we'll see how it plays on the board, but my army doesn't benefit from any of the above except maybe the flamer changes and the new units don't seem particularly potent either. And my poor exorcists, which I knew was coming, but still.

Altima wrote:

dammit wrote:

Altima wrote:
Any GOOD news out of the codex?

Only positive change I'm seeing is that dominions got their pre-game transport move back. All the other changes look less than exciting.

damage 2 storm bolters, +1s on all flamer variants (and the ebon rose max hits with flamers is now generic), every non-bloody rose order is better. Repentia went down 2 points and got core. Penitent engine got natural advance and charge as well as +1 movement.

This all seems very minor considering just about every other unit seems to have been made objectively worse.

Oh well, guess we'll see how it plays on the board, but my army doesn't benefit from any of the above except maybe the flamer changes and the new units don't seem particularly potent either. And my poor exorcists, which I knew was coming, but still.

I cannot believe they though they could take a point of toughness, a wound, a point of AP, it's unique stratagem, AND access to rerolls and think a 15 point discount would be good enough.

It should be back at it's Beta Codex cost of 125, failing that anything more than 140 would be joke.

I didn't realise Mortifiers got zealot. So now they expect 9 s5 hits per 60 point model, instead of 10.

Wow... they really did a number on Retributors.

So now they are basically a devastator squad, no need to put so much work into them. They also won't be enemy #1 for every opponent either.

dammit wrote:
I didn't realise Mortifiers got zealot. So now they expect 9 s5 hits per 60 point model, instead of 10.

That makes the flail change make more sense. Doesn't help buzzblades not be the better option thoug,which sucks if you already had a bunch built.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:
So now they are basically a devastator squad, no need to put so much work into them. They also won't be enemy #1 for every opponent either.

Problem is: When's the last time you saw a devastator squad not coming out of drop pod? 5th? And sisters ain't got no drop pods.

I've been thinking about a couple of the changes and I think that the pistol buff being taken away from Blood Rose likely has to do with the Sacrosanct, while the Seraphim likely lost their range strat due to the Minor Orders buffing specific weapon types.

If so the changes make sense even if they're not all that great for people who were all in on Seraphim.

I want to say Retributors were changed because of the smaller board size, but then Argent Shroud lets them run and shoot, so maybe they were nerfed so people would remember the Exorcist exists?

And reading the ability of beneficence again, the d3+3 extra attacks are when 6+ models within 3 inches, not when attacking a unit of that size, as I'd originally thought.

With bloody rose + war hymns, could potentially get 12 attacks at s5 d1, as opposed to 8 s4 d2 before.

The trades are 3+ for the hymn, compared to having to have kept the preacher/missionary in range.

You have to get the pieces in order but it seems close as anything to a sidegrade.

no rerolls

vs t4
7 damage vs 8 damage

vs t5
5 damage vs 6 damage

vs t8
3 damage vs 2 damage

righteous rage 9th (or vahl rerolls) vs 8th + canoness r/r 1 to hit aura.

vs t4
10 damage vs 12 damage

vs t5
9 damage vs 9 damage

vs t8
6 damage vs 4 damage

Yes, I know that there's now some variance, but if everything falls right, the new beneficence does keep up with the old one.

And now we can turn off invulns so more of that damage goes unsaved.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I've been thinking about a couple of the changes and I think that the pistol buff being taken away from Blood Rose likely has to do with the Sacrosanct, while the Seraphim likely lost their range strat due to the Minor Orders buffing specific weapon types.

If so the changes make sense even if they're not all that great for people who were all in on Seraphim.

I want to say Retributors were changed because of the smaller board size, but then Argent Shroud lets them run and shoot, so maybe they were nerfed so people would remember the Exorcist exists?

Retributors were changed because between the old codex and now, multi-meltas had gone from heavy 1 d6+1 (pick highest) to heavy 2 d6+3. Something had to give, and it was the rules, rather than the points or the wargear options.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I've been thinking about a couple of the changes and I think that the pistol buff being taken away from Blood Rose likely has to do with the Sacrosanct, while the Seraphim likely lost their range strat due to the Minor Orders buffing specific weapon types.

If so the changes make sense even if they're not all that great for people who were all in on Seraphim.

I want to say Retributors were changed because of the smaller board size, but then Argent Shroud lets them run and shoot, so maybe they were nerfed so people would remember the Exorcist exists?

Then why was the Exorcist utterly destroyed? For the Castigator? The Castigator isn't good either. Even with the nerfs to retributors they remain the best 'long' range shooting unit in the book just out of how trash the tanks are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dammit wrote:
And reading the ability of beneficence again, the d3+3 extra attacks are when 6+ models within 3 inches, not when attacking a unit of that size, as I'd originally thought.

With bloody rose + war hymns, could potentially get 12 attacks at s5 d1, as opposed to 8 s4 d2 before.

The trades are 3+ for the hymn, compared to having to have kept the preacher/missionary in range.

You have to get the pieces in order but it seems close as anything to a sidegrade.

no rerolls

vs t4
7 damage vs 8 damage

vs t5
5 damage vs 6 damage

vs t8
3 damage vs 2 damage

righteous rage 9th (or vahl rerolls) vs 8th + canoness r/r 1 to hit aura.

vs t4
10 damage vs 12 damage

vs t5
9 damage vs 9 damage

vs t8
6 damage vs 4 damage

Yes, I know that there's now some variance, but if everything falls right, the new beneficence does keep up with the old one.

And now we can turn off invulns so more of that damage goes unsaved.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I've been thinking about a couple of the changes and I think that the pistol buff being taken away from Blood Rose likely has to do with the Sacrosanct, while the Seraphim likely lost their range strat due to the Minor Orders buffing specific weapon types.

If so the changes make sense even if they're not all that great for people who were all in on Seraphim.

I want to say Retributors were changed because of the smaller board size, but then Argent Shroud lets them run and shoot, so maybe they were nerfed so people would remember the Exorcist exists?

Retributors were changed because between the old codex and now, multi-meltas had gone from heavy 1 d6+1 (pick highest) to heavy 2 d6+3. Something had to give, and it was the rules, rather than the points or the wargear options.

Being able to shut off invulnerable saves runs completely counter to being within 3" of 6 models. What'd you do, charge a full strength paladin squad?

She also takes a huge hit against other characters.

Yeah, the multi-melta change makes sense. Honestly most of the changes make sense, and though the book it just a little weaker it feels like it's ultimately healthier without ending up pre-nerf Drukhari levels of broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ERJAK wrote:
Then why was the Exorcist utterly destroyed? For the Castigator? The Castigator isn't good either. Even with the nerfs to retributors they remain the best 'long' range shooting unit in the book just out of how trash the tanks are.

Probably to bring it in line with the Castigator or the Whirlwind since it gained the ability to shoot outside of Line of Sight for a CP. I don't think the tanks themselves are trash though, just more of how the current meta of 9th has pushed tanks and monstrous creatures off the table.

ERJAK wrote:
Being able to shut off invulnerable saves runs completely counter to being within 3" of 6 models. What'd you do, charge a full strength paladin squad?

She also takes a huge hit against other characters.

Well if you're fighting Daemons I guess it's handy?

The point was that you can still go after the character while benefiting from the full extra attacks if they've got a 5-model squad in close range.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Yeah, the multi-melta change makes sense. Honestly most of the changes make sense, and though the book it just a little weaker it feels like it's ultimately healthier without ending up pre-nerf Drukhari levels of broken.

To me it just feels like they funneled the power that was left after the nerfs into Repentia and Morvann. I wouldn't be surprised to see builds end up more cookie cutter than ever.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

dammit wrote:
The point was that you can still go after the character while benefiting from the full extra attacks if they've got a 5-model squad in close range.

Which is very rare if they aren't charging you. Especially if they know what beneficence does.

Also you have the small complication of having to deal with either the character or the unit even if you do kill your target.

are you telling me that the other player gets to have turns!?

ERJAK wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Yeah, the multi-melta change makes sense. Honestly most of the changes make sense, and though the book it just a little weaker it feels like it's ultimately healthier without ending up pre-nerf Drukhari levels of broken.

To me it just feels like they funneled the power that was left after the nerfs into Repentia and Morvann. I wouldn't be surprised to see builds end up more cookie cutter than ever.

Some of the nerfs were just changing where the rules are coming from like dropping the Seraphim flame pistol range buff strat to being a Minor Order trait. Others were more about fixing the book's internal balance. Honestly this isn't as bad as you're making it out to be. Then again my perspective is heavilly skewed thanks to playing through the WD codex and the digital only codex eras of the army.

Where are you guys seeing all these rules? Im checking all the links but none of them give stats on the penitent engines or rules on the retributors. Is there another place that's leaking rules?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IxMj7Cti_Y, and you have to pause and squint.

buckero0 wrote:
Where are you guys seeing all these rules? Im checking all the links but none of them give stats on the penitent engines or rules on the retributors. Is there another place that's leaking rules?

You can probably see them on Man Reads Book over on GMG on Youtube. Goonhammer has a good article, and Mob Rules did good coverage on the book which is where I got my information.

 lord marcus wrote:
My local just posted prices for the new sisters stuff.

How the hell is Morven Vahl (spelling may be off) worth $55

Unique character

Is the combat patrol usually released a lot later or thats still unsure?
If pre orders are up, doesn't that mean things are going to hit the stores in a couple of weeks?

buckero0 wrote:
Is the combat patrol usually released a lot later or thats still unsure?
If pre orders are up, doesn't that mean things are going to hit the stores in a couple of weeks?

Codex will be out to the public next week, they might do the Combat Patrol for next week's pre-order to fill the weekend before they start the AoS 3.0 pre-order.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I want to say Retributors were changed because of the smaller board size, but then Argent Shroud lets them run and shoot, so maybe they were nerfed so people would remember the Exorcist exists?

Then why did they also nerf the Exorcist? And make the Immolators so damned expensive for that matter.

I think that GW sees the Retributors and goes "Well, they're a Sisters Dev Squad, so we'll treat them as such!", forgetting that one of their weapons is a 12" ranged weapon, and another of their weapons has an effective range of 12". They're not Devs/Havocs by any stretch. They don't have the durability of either, or the range. And I don't think the enhanced lethality of the Multi-Melta in 9th is a good excuse, because if it's better, then you make it more expensive. You don't change the base rules for the entire unit because one weapon is better. But then again, using a pile-driver when a scalpel will do is GW's MO when it comes to rules. Gross overbalancing seems to be the only way they do things.

Oh... it just occurred to me. I guess that means Havocs might end up losing Move & Shoot. Cool.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

dammit wrote:
No, you see, this 60 point model only makes 10 s5 ap-2 cc attacks now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lammia wrote:
That's still a nerf they didn't need

It's basically nothing.

Wait...a change that reduces the number of special/heavy weapons by 50% is nothing?

That's not nothing.

You're not wrong, I just think GW likely did it to balance MSU vs large squad options for Sisters. Now you tmhave a trade off between the two.

Which sucks. It takes away a big chunk of the army's flavor, needlessly nerfs the ONLY troop choice, and I'll stop there while I'm still being polite.