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 AduroT wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
So I haven’t heard, what Were all the nerfs to the Exorcist?

Lost a point of toughness and the rockets lost a pip of AP. The rockets gained ignores cover though, and the Missiles are no longer Blast which means you can give someone an 1812 Overture to the face if they tag it to stop i from shooting the Missiles.

Also all the tanks gained the Hallowed keyword which lets them pop the Thrice Blessed Hull Stat which makes a psyker in 12" who fails to cast a psychic power perils until the end of the phase for 1 CP so that's a thing I guess.

That’s it? I mean yeah, obviously less good, but I was expecting worse from the way people were talking.

It was already struggling to be relevant due to the way the meta has leaned hard into mid-strength D2 weapons for most of it's problems meaning that they're not doing too great so when Autocannons go from wounding them on 5s to 4s it makes people even less excited about using them.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

dammit wrote:

ShaneMarsh wrote:

dammit wrote:
you can also give them zealot for 2cp/1cp if in range of a priest.

Yep. A lot of things you can do. They are less point and click but have wider applications than before with more possible ways of buffing them. I view them mostly as a sidegrade, with a better bottom, more versatility outside one specific Order, at the cost of top-end performance that is harder to achieve.

Yeah it turns out bloody rose zephyrim actually slap with the new strat.

So more proof the internet likes to bruise it's knee on its desk in response to changes? Cool.

IF you're running BR and IF you get the charge and IF you spend the command points to give yourself an extra 3 wounds on T5 or 8 wounds on T4 and IF the target doesn't have some form of damage mitigation like transhuman or reanimation or make your zephyrim fight last, etc.

It's like the repentia congo line. If the stars align and everything goes well, repentia will straight up delete a target. If any point of their support fails, you see a drastic reduction in damage. Granted, zephyrim require far less babysitting, but anything they charge better not be tanky or good in melee.

The CP's might be better spent on seraphim with handflamers against anything you'd want to realistically charge with zephyrim, which it looks like to me would either be T3 units (which sisters have plenty of other ways to deal with) or MSU squads of heavy weapon or snipers.

So, in short, all math points to them being worse than they were before but you have the option of making them marginally better at the cost of 2 cp. I wouldn't call that slappin', but maybe they need to be hanging around buff characters like repentia instead of going after backfield objective holders. Or possibly acting as a goon squad with Saint Celestine.

Hope I'm wrong, though. Zephyrim were something I never had a lot of luck with in the past, and it'd be nice to have a reason to use them more often.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 AduroT wrote:


That’s it? I mean yeah, obviously less good, but I was expecting worse from the way people were talking.

It was already struggling to be relevant due to the way the meta has leaned hard into mid-strength D2 weapons for most of it's problems meaning that they're not doing too great so when Autocannons go from wounding them on 5s to 4s it makes people even less excited about using them.

The Exorcist lost all of that for only a 10 point reduction in cost, and people were already struggling to justify it. Maybe GW thought that if they nerfed all the other firepower in the list (specifically retributors) that exorcists would look more attractive.

Like the Castigator, the Exorcist statline is...okay. It's not terrible, and it could get work done, but they're both overpriced for the amount of punishment they'd be able to put out (if any) before they're wiped off the table. Three exorcists is a quarter of your army and in the land of D3+3 anti tank weapons, would you really want to invest that much in that fragile a unit? Realistically, the only targets for anti tank weaponry will be Paragons, Immolators, Exorcists, and Castigators, and boy do those things get killed really good by those kinds of weapons.

Altima wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

dammit wrote:

ShaneMarsh wrote:

dammit wrote:
you can also give them zealot for 2cp/1cp if in range of a priest.

Yep. A lot of things you can do. They are less point and click but have wider applications than before with more possible ways of buffing them. I view them mostly as a sidegrade, with a better bottom, more versatility outside one specific Order, at the cost of top-end performance that is harder to achieve.

Yeah it turns out bloody rose zephyrim actually slap with the new strat.

So more proof the internet likes to bruise it's knee on its desk in response to changes? Cool.

IF you're running BR and IF you get the charge and IF you spend the command points to give yourself an extra 3 wounds on T5 or 8 wounds on T4 and IF the target doesn't have some form of damage mitigation like transhuman or reanimation or make your zephyrim fight last, etc.

It's like the repentia congo line. If the stars align and everything goes well, repentia will straight up delete a target. If any point of their support fails, you see a drastic reduction in damage. Granted, zephyrim require far less babysitting, but anything they charge better not be tanky or good in melee.

The CP's might be better spent on seraphim with handflamers against anything you'd want to realistically charge with zephyrim, which it looks like to me would either be T3 units (which sisters have plenty of other ways to deal with) or MSU squads of heavy weapon or snipers.

So, in short, all math points to them being worse than they were before but you have the option of making them marginally better at the cost of 2 cp. I wouldn't call that slappin', but maybe they need to be hanging around buff characters like repentia instead of going after backfield objective holders. Or possibly acting as a goon squad with Saint Celestine.

Hope I'm wrong, though. Zephyrim were something I never had a lot of luck with in the past, and it'd be nice to have a reason to use them more often.

They got a minor nerf at worst which is fine. Repentia have always been the epitome of glass cannon in this game dying to a stiff breeze and they still fit that role nicely. Plus there are more sources of the +1 attack buff you can pair with them.

Altima wrote:

So, in short, all math points to them being worse than they were before but you have the option of making them marginally better at the cost of 2 cp. I wouldn't call that slappin', but maybe they need to be hanging around buff characters like repentia instead of going after backfield objective holders. Or possibly acting as a goon squad with Saint Celestine.

if you can get a war hymn off, 17 auto wounds, with 34 more rolls. Without it, 13 auto wounds with 27 more rolls. All at ap-4.

Of course you need to get a sodding charge off. That's how the charge phase works. If only there was a way to get rerolls on it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In general, zealot + tear them down + passion is 30% of all hits become an auto-wound, plus a wound roll, plus whatever non 6s hit.

zephyrim get a lot of hit dice and s4 benefits most from auto-wound.

haven't been keeping up with all the talk the last few days, what allows the Exorcist to fire indirectly?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Battlecannon has two profiles :
Sanctified shell 72" Heavy S9 D6 AP-3 3dmg Blast
Pyro shell 72" Heavy 3d3 S6 AP-1 1dmg Blast, ignores cover

What is funny that new orkstodes laugh at weapon that was specifically made to counter them. S9 no longer wounds them on 2+ so weaker pyro shell will be better 100% of the time against them - because t-shirts make you immune to big explosions. Or something. Fluff, what's that

dammit wrote:
Of course you need to get a sodding charge off. That's how the charge phase works. If only there was a way to get rerolls on it.

Who needs rerolls when you have Miracle Dice?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Irbis wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Battlecannon has two profiles :
Sanctified shell 72" Heavy S9 D6 AP-3 3dmg Blast
Pyro shell 72" Heavy 3d3 S6 AP-1 1dmg Blast, ignores cover

What is funny that new orkstodes laugh at weapon that was specifically made to counter them. S9 no longer wounds them on 2+ so weaker pyro shell will be better 100% of the time against them - because t-shirts make you immune to big explosions. Or something. Fluff, what's that

I feel like the S9 shell is more for things like Custodes or Gravis.

 Irbis wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Battlecannon has two profiles :
Sanctified shell 72" Heavy S9 D6 AP-3 3dmg Blast
Pyro shell 72" Heavy 3d3 S6 AP-1 1dmg Blast, ignores cover

What is funny that new orkstodes laugh at weapon that was specifically made to counter them. S9 no longer wounds them on 2+ so weaker pyro shell will be better 100% of the time against them - because t-shirts make you immune to big explosions. Or something. Fluff, what's that

Thats...true of old orks as well. Why would you fire the AT round at an infantry squad? 6 shots vs 9 shots. Wounding on 2+ vs wounding on 3+ means 5 wounds rather than 6. AP1 and ignores cover is more than sufficient.

Wherever you got the idea that AT rounds were specifically made to counter basic ork infantry, it's wrong.

dammit wrote:


if you can get a war hymn off...

...if.

 Mmmpi wrote:

dammit wrote:


if you can get a war hymn off...

...if.

for 1cp you get a war hymn off then. That post was about positioning.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There's nothing more asinine than someone using 'if' as a critique in a dice game

 AduroT wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
So I haven’t heard, what Were all the nerfs to the Exorcist?

Lost a point of toughness and the rockets lost a pip of AP. The rockets gained ignores cover though, and the Missiles are no longer Blast which means you can give someone an 1812 Overture to the face if they tag it to stop i from shooting the Missiles.

Also all the tanks gained the Hallowed keyword which lets them pop the Thrice Blessed Hull Stat which makes a psyker in 12" who fails to cast a psychic power perils until the end of the phase for 1 CP so that's a thing I guess.

That’s it? I mean yeah, obviously less good, but I was expecting worse from the way people were talking.

Yeah, it's not like they were meta-defining before, so I don't know why the salt. Questionable unit is still questionable, just perhaps a bit more so. Honestly with the newly changed Devastating Refrain stratagem allowing it to ignore LOS, I think bringing one (and only one) as a backfield objective holder or something could have value. Probably not the most optimal thing you could do, but it's a thing.

Did the Exocist keep all it's wounds? Misslies all their AP?

Lammia wrote:
Did the Exocist keep all it's wounds? Misslies all their AP?

Conflageration Rockets lost a point of AP, Missiles kept their AP, oh and it now has 11 wounds.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Lammia wrote:
Did the Exocist keep all it's wounds? Misslies all their AP?

Conflageration Rockets lost a point of AP, Missiles kept their AP, oh and it now has 11 wounds.

Missiles lost AP as well.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Altima wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

dammit wrote:

ShaneMarsh wrote:

dammit wrote:
you can also give them zealot for 2cp/1cp if in range of a priest.

Yep. A lot of things you can do. They are less point and click but have wider applications than before with more possible ways of buffing them. I view them mostly as a sidegrade, with a better bottom, more versatility outside one specific Order, at the cost of top-end performance that is harder to achieve.

Yeah it turns out bloody rose zephyrim actually slap with the new strat.

So more proof the internet likes to bruise it's knee on its desk in response to changes? Cool.

IF you're running BR and IF you get the charge and IF you spend the command points to give yourself an extra 3 wounds on T5 or 8 wounds on T4 and IF the target doesn't have some form of damage mitigation like transhuman or reanimation or make your zephyrim fight last, etc.

It's like the repentia congo line. If the stars align and everything goes well, repentia will straight up delete a target. If any point of their support fails, you see a drastic reduction in damage. Granted, zephyrim require far less babysitting, but anything they charge better not be tanky or good in melee.

The CP's might be better spent on seraphim with handflamers against anything you'd want to realistically charge with zephyrim, which it looks like to me would either be T3 units (which sisters have plenty of other ways to deal with) or MSU squads of heavy weapon or snipers.

So, in short, all math points to them being worse than they were before but you have the option of making them marginally better at the cost of 2 cp. I wouldn't call that slappin', but maybe they need to be hanging around buff characters like repentia instead of going after backfield objective holders. Or possibly acting as a goon squad with Saint Celestine.

Hope I'm wrong, though. Zephyrim were something I never had a lot of luck with in the past, and it'd be nice to have a reason to use them more often.

They got a minor nerf at worst which is fine. Repentia have always been the epitome of glass cannon in this game dying to a stiff breeze and they still fit that role nicely. Plus there are more sources of the +1 attack buff you can pair with them.

Blatantly false. Firstly you can only give 1 unit per turn +1 attack, secondly Hymns activate in the hero phase which means they don't work on transport, outflank, or deepstrike. Which means you'll never be able to use them on zephyrim or repentia. They'll die long before your next command phase rolls around.

Also I love how people look at some stratagems and are like 'well it's fine, because if you spend FOUR CP you can get 3% more damage than they used to do without any bonuses' like that's not hilariously terrible.

ERJAK wrote:
Blatantly false. Firstly you can only give 1 unit per turn +1 attack, secondly Hymns activate in the hero phase which means they don't work on transport, outflank, or deepstrike. Which means you'll never be able to use them on zephyrim or repentia. They'll die long before your next command phase rolls around.

Also I love how people look at some stratagems and are like 'well it's fine, because if you spend FOUR CP you can get 3% more damage than they used to do without any bonuses' like that's not hilariously terrible.

Fiery Oratory strat bypasses command phase locking of hymns in exactly the same manner as marines Commanding Oratory, but for 1cp less - so positioning is the only major limiting factor (i.e. probably not getting it on Zephyrim as easily as Repentia out of a transport).

Without spending any CP, the extra attack and 1 point discount to Zephyrim mean they are approximately equal to what they were previously (against softer targets), and slightly weaker to chopping tanks in half (for which melta or Repentia are still the preferred option anyway).

To me, Zephyrim seem fine as they are with no additional buffs other than maybe a miracle dice charge out of deepstrike.

 Irbis wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Battlecannon has two profiles :
Sanctified shell 72" Heavy S9 D6 AP-3 3dmg Blast
Pyro shell 72" Heavy 3d3 S6 AP-1 1dmg Blast, ignores cover

What is funny that new orkstodes laugh at weapon that was specifically made to counter them. S9 no longer wounds them on 2+ so weaker pyro shell will be better 100% of the time against them - because t-shirts make you immune to big explosions. Or something. Fluff, what's that

A S6 AP-1 D1 weapon, better at killing T5 W1 Sv6+ orks than a S9 AP-3 weapon? Wild.

Now you're gonna tell me you take heavy bolters instead of lascannons to shoot at orks.

 Irbis wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Battlecannon has two profiles :
Sanctified shell 72" Heavy S9 D6 AP-3 3dmg Blast
Pyro shell 72" Heavy 3d3 S6 AP-1 1dmg Blast, ignores cover

What is funny that new orkstodes laugh at weapon that was specifically made to counter them. S9 no longer wounds them on 2+ so weaker pyro shell will be better 100% of the time against them - because t-shirts make you immune to big explosions. Or something. Fluff, what's that

Ummm...anti tank weapon being worse at killing infantry than anti infantry weapon? Gee who would have thought.

Guess you shoot lascannons at guard infantry and wonder why you kill less than guy that fires punisher cannon. BUT I HAVE S9!!!

ShaneMarsh wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Lammia wrote:
Did the Exocist keep all it's wounds? Misslies all their AP?

Conflageration Rockets lost a point of AP, Missiles kept their AP, oh and it now has 11 wounds.

Missiles lost AP as well.

Good catch. Trying to read screenshots of codex pages and they aren't all crisp and clean.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ERJAK wrote:
Blatantly false. Firstly you can only give 1 unit per turn +1 attack, secondly Hymns activate in the hero phase which means they don't work on transport, outflank, or deepstrike. Which means you'll never be able to use them on zephyrim or repentia. They'll die long before your next command phase rolls around.

Also I love how people look at some stratagems and are like 'well it's fine, because if you spend FOUR CP you can get 3% more damage than they used to do without any bonuses' like that's not hilariously terrible.

Honestly I've been told for editions that Repentia were bad but a unit of them in my lists has always paid off, so forgive me if I don't buy into the idea that now that they're not setting the world on fire good that they're unplayable.

dammit wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

dammit wrote:


if you can get a war hymn off...

...if.

for 1cp you get a war hymn off then. That post was about positioning.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There's nothing more asinine than someone using 'if' as a critique in a dice game

Same as acting like random chance and resource costs don't exist.

go away, awful poster

dammit wrote:
go away, awful poster

Why does pointing out flaws in the new codex, and the logic of some people posting about it make me an awful poster?

Or do you consider everyone who disagrees with you, particularly when you come within a whisker of being insulting about it, to be 'awful'?

On topic:
Yes random chance exists. In this specific case it exists where it didn't before. It's a 50/50 to get the war hymn off. That's not the same as automatic, and it certainly isn't reliable.
Same with stacking stratagems. Great you can get units up to their current output...at the cost of 3+ Command points. That's hardly a small cost. And that takes away from the opportunity costs of doing something else with those CP.

So no, pointing out obvious flaws in your logic doesn't make me awful. You sniping about it however starts you down that path yourself.

So there's a rider on faith and fury that I hadn't paid attention to.

You don't count has having used an act of faith for the hit roll. So for 1cp and 2 miracle die, you can miracle the hit, wound and damage.

 Mmmpi wrote:

dammit wrote:
go away, awful poster

It's a 50/50 to get the war hymn off.

It is a 3+ to get the Hymns off, not a 4+.

dammit wrote:
So there's a rider on faith and fury that I hadn't paid attention to.

You don't count has having used an act of faith for the hit roll. So for 1cp and 2 miracle die, you can miracle the hit, wound and damage.

Not quite. You use it after using a miracle die for the hit roll and then reuse the same die for the wound roll without counting as using a second act of Faith.

oh never mind then

still that sounds pretty nice, proably a nice strat to use if you're taking a pot shot at something hard to hit and damage.

Faith and Fury is vastly improved. The difference in 1CP I think brings it into the arsenal. 6 to hit in the face with that melta in overwatch? May as well Faith and Fury it. Inferno Pistols as well.

Curiously, do MD of 6 count as "unmodified hit rolls of 6"? Makes things a bit more interesting.

Purifying Tempest wrote:
Faith and Fury is vastly improved. The difference in 1CP I think brings it into the arsenal. 6 to hit in the face with that melta in overwatch? May as well Faith and Fury it. Inferno Pistols as well.

Curiously, do MD of 6 count as "unmodified hit rolls of 6"? Makes things a bit more interesting.

Miracle Dice count as unmodified rolls, yes.

Like the most miniscule of boosts, but I guess it is worth pointing out now that Sacred Rose order strat for exploding 6's in the shooting phase now affects all weapons - not exclusively bolt. Weave in some melta weapons and camp 6's to get 2 automatic hits with that strat from like a multi-melta or something. Don't think it is worth building an army around, but a nice perk for that order.

Edit: Since we're on the topic of Faith and Fury - what happens when you use Faith and Fury to pass a 6 to hit onto the wound roll... and the initial hit roll spawns an additional hit, like via Sacred Rose? Is it 2 hits, 1 auto-wound, or does the second hit still see that original 6 to hit and Faith and Fury being used?