Unit1126PLL wrote:

Voss wrote:
You don't? The movie doesn't even bother dealing with her at all post Snoke. She goes into the ship seeking redemption for her kidnapper. She fails. We don't see her reaction to that. We don't see her leave. We don't see her gain any knowledge at all about the current state of the Resisty. She just turns up later, guns a-blazing with a Yeehah! Quips on her lips about rocks, and a sudden complete tone shift as she dons the Annointed Hero role because the last five minutes of the movie demands it for movie purposes, not because it has anything to do with her character arc, not even a simplistic 'what have we learned today?' There is almost a reaction shot when she learns the one person she interacted with in the last movie has a new love interest, but it's left lying on the ground.

If you can't understand why post confrontation Rey is a joke, I suspect you just aren't willing to. Rey the character doesn't move in the second half the film. She's still paralyzed by Snoke. The Annointed Hero is removed from the big ship to the falcon, then the Annointed Hero moves some rocks to set the pieces up for the next film. The craft of film-making is entirely abandoned, and Johnson just shuffles tropes and roles around to provide Abrams the exact same starting point as the this film: The Resity flees a planet to escape the first order. In doing so, he stops treating them as characters, and just shoots some uninspired set pieces with tropey roles going through the motions- the villain does the stupid villain rant, the sacrifice does his thing, the sidekick learns about love, and the hero saves people just by wandering back into shot.

Yeah but weren't your expectations subverted?

I mean you expected a well-crafted movie with a moving storyline that really tugged your heartstrings and made you invested in the heroes, didn't you? It's a Star Wars film after all.

But your expectations were subverted weren't they? Rian Johnson really got us there, hoo boy! I definitely feel much better knowing that he threw the franchise under the bus simply to subvert expectations.

I know this is sarcasm and you largely agree with me, but I have to honestly say no. My expectations were completely fulfilled. Of the 9 star wars films, 5 were utter trash by my reckoning, and Jedi was shaky. Rogue One subverted my expectation by being a modern SW film that wasn't crap.

But then, i don't think the current trilogy has much to recommend in the way of heroes. The main characters were quite firm in their respective stances (in TFA) that they didn't want to be there, and didn't want to be involved. In fact, most of the main characters from the original story didn't want to be involved in the new story either.

What was supposed to tug at my heartstrings in TFA made me roll my eyes at the telegraphed cliche. There might have been an emotional reaction to it in TLJ, when Luke learns about his friend's death, but... like most of the scenes with the potential for real emotional impact, the camera wandered off.

As for Johnson, he completely fulfilled my expectations- a no name filmmaker produced a whole lot of nothing.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
RJ remembers how much you can "tell" with just a camera...until he doesn't.

I think this is a fair statement. Like if the movie has been written by 2 writers and directed by 2 directors and in each group, one is smart and the other is called special by his mom.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It's about how much of a hard core fan you are. It's the hard core fans who hate the film. Everyone else is fine with it.

Just because you keep saying that doesn't make it true.

Hell, I'm a SW fan but hardly a hardcore one, I've watched the main movies, not any of the spin offs or TV series, none of the books, played a few of the video games but probably less than half of them. I think I fit right in to the "casual fan" bracket.

This "only hardcore fans hate it" thing really is t true, it might just be the hardcore fans are the ones more likely to make a 5 hour video explaining why they hate it, that doesn't mean everyone else is fine with it.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I'm still a bit triggered that they were closer to Crait than Earth is to its Moon during the entire chase sequence, and not one person, either in the First Order or in Poe's merry band of mutineers, ever thought that the planet they can see out the window that the Resistance is heading for might be the thing that the resistance is heading for.

I'm sure it would be a common tactic to jump away to a random spot before jumping to your true destination. We saw in Empire they were bright enough to calculate all systems along the falcons last known trajectory after all. Then the first order showed up after the first jump which took the rebellion by surprise, random officer #2 "hey look, their trajectory takes them to this habitable system, let's go there". This again goes to the failure of the rebellions leadership though, they jumped straight to their intended destination so even without tracking the first order would have shown up. With the first order controlling the space around the planet, they could easily call in reinforcements and destroy anyone trying to save the rebels. Window or not though, they have star chars for the entire galaxy so when they go through hyperspace they don't bounce into those stars, the whole cast and crews should have known what was there.

The words of dark helmet were never more true than in this movie.
"evil will always triumph because good is dumb"

Also if the box office indicates the definitive list of which movies are better than others, than we can clearly see TPM is magnitudes better than TLJ. I guess we all just wanted to see more Jarjar.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It's about how much of a hard core fan you are. It's the hard core fans who hate the film. Everyone else is fine with it.

Just because you keep saying that doesn't make it true.

Hell, I'm a SW fan but hardly a hardcore one, I've watched the main movies, not any of the spin offs or TV series, none of the books, played a few of the video games but probably less than half of them. I think I fit right in to the "casual fan" bracket.

This "only hardcore fans hate it" thing really is t true, it might just be the hardcore fans are the ones more likely to make a 5 hour video explaining why they hate it, that doesn't mean everyone else is fine with it.

Just because you keep making that point doesn't make my point false.

The Last Jedi is a good, solid film, worth 8/10 in anyone's book who likes space opera SF films.

All the criticism is coming from people who are deeply invested in the SW extended universe. They clearly expected something that wasn't delivered, and now are criticizing the film on specious technical grounds.

The ticket sales pretty much prove everyone else is fine with it. Genuinely gakky films do not sell $1.3 billion of tickets in six weeks.

How much did Suicide Squad sell

I'm still baffled at how this has spun out to 100+ pages. Some like the thing, others don't. And nobody is going to convince the other side.

If you didn't like the thing, ok.

If you did like the thing, ok.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It's about how much of a hard core fan you are. It's the hard core fans who hate the film. Everyone else is fine with it.

Just because you keep saying that doesn't make it true.

Hell, I'm a SW fan but hardly a hardcore one, I've watched the main movies, not any of the spin offs or TV series, none of the books, played a few of the video games but probably less than half of them. I think I fit right in to the "casual fan" bracket.

This "only hardcore fans hate it" thing really is t true, it might just be the hardcore fans are the ones more likely to make a 5 hour video explaining why they hate it, that doesn't mean everyone else is fine with it.

Just because you keep making that point doesn't make my point false.

The Last Jedi is a good, solid film, worth 8/10 in anyone's book who likes space opera SF films.

All the criticism is coming from people who are deeply invested in the SW extended universe. They clearly expected something that wasn't delivered, and now are criticizing the film on specious technical grounds.

The ticket sales pretty much prove everyone else is fine with it. Genuinely gakky films do not sell $1.3 billion of tickets in six weeks.

Never read the SW EU - Don't care about it, nor do the other people I watched it with, the people I chatted to about it - who almost all said it was a crap film - not a bad Star Wars film - a crap film full stop.

4.8 / 10 according to RT actual people who paid to see it rather than critics who are paid to watch it as their job. But I guess every single person who rated it low is a superfan?????? And we get accused of being conspiracy theorists

We get it you like it - but saying that anyone who doesn't falls into a specific category is not only wrong but insulting. Many of those who watched it and said it was crap are not Star Wars superfans - some of them have only seen TFA.

We have laid out in great detail the many many flaws In this film as we see them - to which your only argument seems to be Nah nah nah can't hear you - your just evil superfans.

Ticket sales are how much was spent on going to see it - it says ZERO about if those people enjoyed it or not. Its not a hard thing to understand.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Just because you keep making that point doesn't make my point false.

Ummm, actually, yes it does, now you're just being disingenuous, I'm not sure why but you are just being wilfully ignorant at this point.

I am one of the ones making criticism and I sure as hell don't fill this criteria:

All the criticism is coming from people who are deeply invested in the SW extended universe.

So your point is made false by the fact I exist

It's also been pointed out to you by others that just because you and your family liked it doesn't mean "everyone else" did as well, the only thing needed to disprove your point is a counter anecdotal experience and that has been provided to you.

The ticket sales pretty much prove everyone else is fine with it. Genuinely gakky films do not sell $1.3 billion of tickets in six weeks.

One's called "Star Wars" do. That it flopped in places where that heritage isn't as important (i.e. China) is telling as well.

You're a smart guy KK, don't pretend you don't know the value of marketing and a brand name. There's a reason Disney paid so much for the SW license and there's a reason marketing budgets often end up bigger than the production budget. There's plenty of good but poorly marketed films that don't make huge amount of money and plenty of crap with big marketing budgets that make lots of money.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It's about how much of a hard core fan you are. It's the hard core fans who hate the film. Everyone else is fine with it.

Just because you keep saying that doesn't make it true.

Hell, I'm a SW fan but hardly a hardcore one, I've watched the main movies, not any of the spin offs or TV series, none of the books, played a few of the video games but probably less than half of them. I think I fit right in to the "casual fan" bracket.

This "only hardcore fans hate it" thing really is t true, it might just be the hardcore fans are the ones more likely to make a 5 hour video explaining why they hate it, that doesn't mean everyone else is fine with it.

Just because you keep making that point doesn't make my point false.

The Last Jedi is a good, solid film, worth 8/10 in anyone's book who likes space opera SF films.

All the criticism is coming from people who are deeply invested in the SW extended universe. They clearly expected something that wasn't delivered, and now are criticizing the film on specious technical grounds.

The ticket sales pretty much prove everyone else is fine with it. Genuinely gakky films do not sell $1.3 billion of tickets in six weeks.

if your ranking by ticket sales, which Disney raised the prices of for this movie, then TLJ is still the worst star wars film ever made. With a set up like TLJ I'm sure 9 will make less regardless of the story. I highly doubt 1/2 of the viewing audience is deepely invested in the extended universe. People went because they expected to be entertained, 50% of them were not, and those that weren't bought tickets as well. I use 1/2 because that's the views split on rotten and our own poll matched it as well.

a good solid film? do you work for Disney? how miuch did they pay you to support this movie?

I've largely ignored the extended universe, I did read Zahns version of how 7-9 could have went, and that was a good solid story. TLJ has a horrible and ultimately meaningless story which makes the rebels look dumber than a box of rocks, and comparing them to rocks is an insult to the rocks.

Because of this movie I'm going to skip the solo movie, unless it receives glowing reviews from over 90% of the viewers, and if 9 has yet another "death star" around a jungle planet and the first order is defeated by some new cute plushy toy pitch, I'd also bet more of the star wars fans and myself will give it a miss. If enough people show up and the force willing 9 loses money, then maybe Disney will pull their heads out of you know where, and start trying to make a great star wars movie with a solid story, and not a 2+ hour toy commercial.

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:


Tarkin deleted the data for them. Unfortunately, there was a backup.

... well spotted!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
How much did Suicide Squad sell

I'm still baffled at how this has spun out to 100+ pages. Some like the thing, others don't. And nobody is going to convince the other side.

Because people keep posting in this thread?

I mean, how many times have you posted in it after your plea to end it all in here?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

If you didn't like the thing, ok.

If you did like the thing, ok.

And both 'sides' seem to be unable to come to grips with that.

So short of a threadlock, expect it to continue.

Unless, you know, people start being the change they want to see, etc. etc. etc.

 Alpharius wrote:


Unless, you know, people start being the change they want to see, etc. etc. etc.

Even as Meh as TLJ was, I'm still going to see all of the Star Wars in the theater, just like Marvel movies and Star Trek movies and other "blockbusters". I can't see that changing.

Ha!

That's not the 'change' I was suggesting there!

 kronk wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:


Unless, you know, people start being the change they want to see, etc. etc. etc.

Even as Meh as TLJ was, I'm still going to see all of the Star Wars in the theater, just like Marvel movies and Star Trek movies and other "blockbusters". I can't see that changing.

Agreed. And in many cases, I'll likely see certain movies more than once in the theatre (already seen TLJ twice, will likely see it once more in the dollar theatre).

Nothing compares to the theatre experience.

-

Since 1997's ANH SPecial Edition I've seen every SW film not just in the cinema but also on the day of release (yes that includes the Clone Wars movie, which I took the day off work for so I could sneak in to a matinee showing unseen. I was the only unaccompanied adult in there).

I can't see that changing any time soon. My friends and I had an absolute blast ripping TLJ to shreds in the bar afterwards (we poked a lot of fun at Rogue One despite unanimously approving of the film overall).

I don't know why people are calling for an end to this thread. It's still pretty entertaining. Star Wars has always produced a lot of discussion.

@Sirlynchmob, so what you are saying is that we should not wake you up before we go, go, because you're not planning on going to Solo?

 Alpharius wrote:
Ha!

That's not the 'change' I was suggesting there!

Ah, I guess i missed the meaning. Doh!

I want to get inside chewie's head. Right now he's just kind of a walking secret keeper from the audience.


Something like this would be nice. Or an honorable death. His life debt is paid. Why is he doing shuttle service for a stranger instead of checking in with relatives (wookies live for centuries) or grieving Han or trying to avenge his death?

That's easy.

Because as a non-English speaking role and a long lived alien character in a fur suit, he and R2D2 are the characters that can in every single on-going film.

So yeah, they need to do more with him to take advantage of that.

I'm still baffled at how this has spun out to 100+ pages. Some like the thing, others don't. And nobody is going to convince the other side.

Because some people liked/didn't like it and some have a rabid ideological drive to not just declare they don't like it but that it's "objectively" the worst movie ever made.

It's the same contrarian, regressive underbelly of the gaming community that's been creeping up everywhere lately.

 ScarletRose wrote:

I'm still baffled at how this has spun out to 100+ pages. Some like the thing, others don't. And nobody is going to convince the other side.

Because some people liked/didn't like it and some have a rabid ideological drive to not just declare they don't like it but that it's "objectively" the worst movie ever made.

It's the same contrarian, regressive underbelly of the gaming community that's been creeping up everywhere lately.

As it's been suggested that box office returns = enjoyment of the movie, we can rank all the movies objectively and see that TLJ is the worst of the star wars franchise. We can also objective rank them by user ratings. The star wars movies have been ranked best to worst since the first 3 were made and now we're adding more to the list. Plenty of objective data to rank the movies with. You're just being over dramatic when you reduce the criticisms to try and equate it to the worst movie ever. I don't recall anyone saying that, worst star wars movie? yep, ever? probably not.

And going by the box office we can clearly see that the rocky horror picture show is the best movie ever, it's still in theaters some 30?ish years after it's release. Think of all the box office money it's made

Thinking about cinemas and so on... That's actually a pretty good argument for Rocky Horror...

 ScarletRose wrote:

I'm still baffled at how this has spun out to 100+ pages. Some like the thing, others don't. And nobody is going to convince the other side.

Because some people liked/didn't like it and some have a rabid ideological drive to not just declare they don't like it but that it's "objectively" the worst movie ever made.

It's the same contrarian, regressive underbelly of the gaming community that's been creeping up everywhere lately.

Its more that those who dare to find fault with this gem of a film have been accused of

Having ulterior moties
being rapid superfans
and other stuff.

It is an awful movie - def the worst I have seen for quite some time.

It’s sad to see Star Wars’ second chance going astray. I had such high hopes for it. I liked TFA (although the more I think about it the more I think it’s not very good ) but TLJ just...doesn’t sit well. At least Rogue One was good.

The only major weaknesses in the story of the original trilogy that I can think of are Leia turning out to be Luke’s twin sister (let’s face it, that was just to solve the love triangle ) and the Ewoks taking down the emperor’s ‘best troops’. Apart from those two issues, it’s a good story. The new one however is going badly wrong. And the prequels...no I won’t go there.

Maybe 30-40 years from now somebody will remake Star Wars in its entirety, all fixed up.

I actually like the prequels, in retrospect.

There are elements I hate, but at least I can look past those at the vast world it's created. With these sequels, I feel like the whole setting could be in a single solar system and it wouldn't change a thing.

Hayden Christensen is a horrible actor, and the romance with Natalie Portman was comical at best.

Phantom Menace did give us the Darth Maul lightsaber fight and the Duel of Fates song, though.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I actually like the prequels, in retrospect.

There are elements I hate, but at least I can look past those at the vast world it's created. With these sequels, I feel like the whole setting could be in a single solar system and it wouldn't change a thing.

So, the prequels only positive takeaways are some matte paintings and the incredible cross sections books about spaceships? Yeah, that sounds right.

 ScarletRose wrote:

I'm still baffled at how this has spun out to 100+ pages. Some like the thing, others don't. And nobody is going to convince the other side.

Because some people liked/didn't like it and some have a rabid ideological drive to not just declare they don't like it but that it's "objectively" the worst movie ever made.

It's the same contrarian, regressive underbelly of the gaming community that's been creeping up everywhere lately.

So, we should have spent some post praising the movie, an then start another thread about another beautiful masterpiece from Disney to praise.
I find utterly ridiculous and dismissing your attitude. People, in agreement or not with the statement that the movie is bad, spent time arguing and analyzing point.
Compared elements with other movie, media, real world. I don't accept all the comparisons but I respect the effort and the will to analyse elements in a forum dedicated to their discussion.
What is the meaning of your post?
Same with gaming. GW and other companies pulled some good and some bad move, this is supposed not be discussed? Why have Dakka then.
Why don't call it when something is wrong or not working. What are we supposed to do?
Watch another flashy movie with brain-dead script, clap our hands, and then wait for the next? No thanks.
Or watch a movie that we enjoyed, and discuss its elements with other posters that liked it, or that attack it with good or bad reasons?
Who are you to enter in a thread and establish that is enough? Or that criticism is contrarianism?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I actually like the prequels, in retrospect.

There are elements I hate, but at least I can look past those at the vast world it's created. With these sequels, I feel like the whole setting could be in a single solar system and it wouldn't change a thing.

So, the prequels only positive takeaways are some matte paintings and the incredible cross sections books about spaceships? Yeah, that sounds right.

Let's not forget Ewan McGregor. He is by far the best part of the Prequels. The whole trilogy really should have focused on his story arc and the loss of his pupil.
Maybe include him in a love triangle with Anakin and Padme. Could have made the romance stuff a bit less "cringey". Or moreso

-

 kronk wrote:
Hayden Christensen is a horrible actor, and the romance with Natalie Portman was comical at best.

Phantom Menace did give us the Darth Maul lightsaber fight and the Duel of Fates song, though.

Should one be so hard on Christensen, I ask?
Who in the world would deliver properly the "sand lines"?

@Unit I do agree on the prequels as nice for the worldbuilding for the most part. The general, rough story is an archetypal fall. Just the way has been developed is.. eeeh. Good parts and worse parts. I agree that camera work etc is better in TFA and TLJ.

@Galef in a way it is. Vader becomes almost a decoy protagonist... the final duel is with Obi-one. Ep III almost transforms it in a Sheev + Obi story.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 ScarletRose wrote:

I'm still baffled at how this has spun out to 100+ pages. Some like the thing, others don't. And nobody is going to convince the other side.

Because some people liked/didn't like it and some have a rabid ideological drive to not just declare they don't like it but that it's "objectively" the worst movie ever made.

It's the same contrarian, regressive underbelly of the gaming community that's been creeping up everywhere lately.

So, we should have spent some post praising the movie, an then start another thread about another beautiful masterpiece from Disney to praise.
I find utterly ridiculous and dismissing your attitude. People, in agreement or not with the statement that the movie is bad, spent time arguing and analyzing point.
Compared elements with other movie, media, real world. I don't accept all the comparisons but I respect the effort and the will to analyse elements in a forum dedicated to their discussion.
What is the meaning of your post?
Same with gaming. GW and other companies pulled some good and some bad move, this is supposed not be discussed? Why have Dakka then.
Why don't call it when something is wrong or not working. What are we supposed to do?
Watch another flashy movie with brain-dead script, clap our hands, and then wait for the next? No thanks.
Or watch a movie that we enjoyed, and discuss its elements with other posters that liked it, or that attack it with good or bad reasons?
Who are you to enter in a thread and establish that is enough? Or that criticism is contrarianism?

Don't let this person get to you man. Some people are just best left ignored (esp. by those they disagree with). Keeps the mods happier anyway i'm sure.

I thought said political discussion was kinda frowned upon anyway on Dakka these days.

Much as i disliked the movie i wasn't so insanely mad at it. It was still garbage though. Then again i was never much a 'Star Wars' fan. Warhammer fantasy however....well i was probably seething with rage for at least a week after it got canned. So i think it's similar enough.

In this case hello, fellow Bad and Entitled Consumer (BaEC)!

I don't recall anyone saying that, worst star wars movie? yep, ever? probably not.

It is an awful movie - def the worst I have seen for quite some time.

Wow, didn't even have to try on that one.

--

What is the meaning of your post?

To paraphrase a very old story: it is as it appears to be, it can by no means be otherwise. I'm just tired of seeing the same 3-4 posts ad nauseum for 100+ pages.

Hell at least the thread where the backers complain about Robotech Tactics has new material every so often.

Who are you to enter in a thread and establish that is enough? Or that criticism is contrarianism?

Muh freedom, am I right?

I mean seriously, when every single positive post is met with "no it's not!" over and over it gets very tedious. It's not discussion, as I said it's some kind of ideological stand that every one of those darn people who are wrong about liking a movie be wiped out. Because that's the new "discussion", it's the new "telling it like is" to just shout the same thing until everyone gives up trying to say anything.

If you want to discuss a movie you liked why aren't you doing that?

 ScarletRose wrote:

I don't recall anyone saying that, worst star wars movie? yep, ever? probably not.

It is an awful movie - def the worst I have seen for quite some time.

Wow, didn't even have to try on that one.

You don't understand the difference between "worst ever made" and "worst I have seen in quite some time"?

It's the worst movie I have seen in quite some time. Of course I only watch a few movies a year and have not qualified what "quite some time" might mean.

I don't recall anyone saying that, worst star wars movie? yep, ever? probably not.

It is an awful movie - def the worst I have seen for quite some time.

Wow, didn't even have to try on that one.

well you could actually read and understand the post - always helps.

I have seen worse, this was the worst for some time. Not the worst ever. Capiche?

Muh freedom, am I right? I mean seriously, when every single positive post is met with "no it's not!" over and over it gets very tedious. It's not discussion, as I said it's some kind of ideological stand that every one of those darn people who are wrong about liking a movie be wiped out. Because that's the new "discussion", it's the new "telling it like is" to just shout the same thing until everyone gives up trying to say anything.

If you want to discuss a movie you liked why aren't you doing that?

People like it - they say why
People don't like - they say why

Some people have stated that ALL the complaints are from superfans - oddly enough some of us took issue with that and explained exactly why that was in error.

It's also kind of funny because every sort of negative post tends to get a "No it's not!" as well, and in the earlier posts it was also questioning if you had some hidden ulterior meaning behind why you disliked it that made your views on the movie invalid.

So it's kind of cherry picking for one side.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

Should one be so hard on Christensen, I ask?
Who in the world would deliver properly the "sand lines"?

Oh, I have plenty of blame to fling at old George, by gum!

Getting real close to Threadlock now...

Don’t get the thread locked. It’s one of my last remaining pleasures around here.

I also remembered something. The whole map plot from TFA; that suggested Luke wanted to be found right? But come TLJ, it turns out he didn’t want to be found? I’m I getting it wrong or is there a plot hole there?

Scarlet Rose, Alpharius is in alert and i will not go further. I just can say: read the thread, you will fin interesting point against and pro movie, and even "meta" points about the industry, story structure, or critics.

Sometimes pick apart a movie can lead to that. If you don't want to see it, at this point I don't care.

An interesting piece on MSN about how Disney risks Star Wars fatigue.

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainment/movies/disney%e2%80%99s-greatest-strength-is-about-to-become-its-biggest-weakness/ar-BBIQVk8?li=AAnZ9Ug&ocid=iehp

I only go to see two or three films a year, so one Star Wars a year does sound too many.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Don’t get the thread locked. It’s one of my last remaining pleasures around here.

I also remembered something. The whole map plot from TFA; that suggested Luke wanted to be found right? But come TLJ, it turns out he didn’t want to be found? I’m I getting it wrong or is there a plot hole there?

It is never stated that Luke left the map, just that it was a map to find Luke. It could have been the result of many people piecing together data from evidence of what Luke was looking into prior to his disappearance and extrapolating from there.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Don’t get the thread locked. It’s one of my last remaining pleasures around here.

I also remembered something. The whole map plot from TFA; that suggested Luke wanted to be found right? But come TLJ, it turns out he didn’t want to be found? I’m I getting it wrong or is there a plot hole there?

Ya that was a major dick move on lukes part. watch your nephew fall to the dark side, unleash him upon the galaxy with all your students, then run away and hide while your sister has to deal with her kid and your mess. Then he cuts himself off from the force in case leia tries to reach him by force twitter.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
An interesting piece on MSN about how Disney risks Star Wars fatigue.

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainment/movies/disney%e2%80%99s-greatest-strength-is-about-to-become-its-biggest-weakness/ar-BBIQVk8?li=AAnZ9Ug&ocid=iehp

I only go to see two or three films a year, so one Star Wars a year does sound too many.

From the way it was discussed it also seems like they wanted more then one per year as well. Which really risks audience fatigue given how close TLJ and Han Solo movie are.

Looking at the star map that leads to Luke’s hideaway. we know that Luke flew himself to the ocean planet in his own X Wing, and presumably the course data would have stayed there with his ship.

However, he must have given a copy of it to Max von Sydow because there it was at the start of TFA, being picked up by Poe.

As for why Luke did this when he did not want to be found, we don’t know he did not want to be found. If he wanted truly to be lost, he probably would not have gone to the most important ancient Jedi shrine in the galaxy, and he would not have given someone a map.

Why then might Luke actually have wanted to be able to be found?

He might have wanted Leia to be able to contact him in extremis.

He might have hoped that someone else would clear up the mess he left behind, and come to get him.

He might even have hoped to find redemption from his own suffering and failure during his stay on the island, and only realised when Rey arrived that he had not.

Maybe all that is wrong, and Max von Sydow took a copy of Luke’s flightplan without permission.

So yes, there are ways to read the map as a plot hole, and there are ways to read it as a dramatic device.

The map is the maguffin in TFA. The discovery of Luke, and Rey failing to persuade him to return, are key elements of TLJ.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Don’t get the thread locked. It’s one of my last remaining pleasures around here.

I also remembered something. The whole map plot from TFA; that suggested Luke wanted to be found right? But come TLJ, it turns out he didn’t want to be found? I’m I getting it wrong or is there a plot hole there?

Luke was on some holy planet with the oldest Jedi temple and books. Perhaps the map was the Star Wars galaxy's version of a scavenger hunt for tourists. Maybe R2 let the map loose in an effort at intervention for his depressed master.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 kronk wrote:
Hayden Christensen is a horrible actor, and the romance with Natalie Portman was comical at best.

Phantom Menace did give us the Darth Maul lightsaber fight and the Duel of Fates song, though.

Should one be so hard on Christensen, I ask?
Who in the world would deliver properly the "sand lines"?

@Unit I do agree on the prequels as nice for the worldbuilding for the most part. The general, rough story is an archetypal fall. Just the way has been developed is.. eeeh. Good parts and worse parts. I agree that camera work etc is better in TFA and TLJ.

@Galef in a way it is. Vader becomes almost a decoy protagonist... the final duel is with Obi-one. Ep III almost transforms it in a Sheev + Obi story.

I completely agree that the prequels were entertaining and expanded the SW movie universe in an interesting way but they still contained a lot of terrible acting, cringey dialogue and alien races that were 2 dimensional caricatures at best. On the bad acting front I'm willing to cut the actors some slack because I think the overuse of the greenscreen was a real obstacle to the movie. So much of the setting and characters were cgi it would have been difficult for any actors to make scenes look good when they're standing on a greenscreen stage talking to an alien character that they can't see while standing in a setting that they can't see. Sure, the late great Bob Hoskins pulled it off well in Who Framed Roger Rabbit? but there was a lot more physical sets and props in that movie.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
An interesting piece on MSN about how Disney risks Star Wars fatigue.

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainment/movies/disney%e2%80%99s-greatest-strength-is-about-to-become-its-biggest-weakness/ar-BBIQVk8?li=AAnZ9Ug&ocid=iehp

I only go to see two or three films a year, so one Star Wars a year does sound too many.

From the way it was discussed it also seems like they wanted more then one per year as well. Which really risks audience fatigue given how close TLJ and Han Solo movie are.

Disney/Marvel don't have that issue as far as I can see - I am really looking forward to seeing several this year, after JLA and Wonder Woman same with DC - good films generate interest.

Weakest part of the TLJ was the writing, oh and the plot , oh and the direction, oh and the pacing............

Make a good film, people want to see the next one, make a crap one people don't.

Ya that was a major dick move on lukes part. watch your nephew fall to the dark side, unleash him upon the galaxy with all your students, then run away and hide while your sister has to deal with her kid and your mess. Then he cuts himself off from the force in case leia tries to reach him by force twitter.

Pretty much inspired by Yoda's cowardice in the prequals - "run and hide, screw everyone else and let the galaxy burn."

RE: the map to Luke

Yet another set up by JJ ignored by Rian. The backstory of the map could be any number of things BUT for the purposes of what the audience is actually shown on the screen it's nothing at all.

The map is important because it characterizes Luke's intent in going into hiding. Ignoring the map is just one more continuity breach between TFA and TLJ.

TLJ almost feels like an "alternate reality" relative to TFA. In some other dimension, a different Episode VII was released but for some reason the sequel to that film got released in our dimension. I wo der if they got our Episode VIII.

How does the map characterise Luke's intent in going into hiding?

You yourself explained (potentially) how above.

It seems to me that Luke characterises his motives in going into hiding.

Why do we need to explore the map? At the end of TFA it has done its job and passes into history.

The Map was just a McGuffin and once its usefulness to the plot was over, it was discarded. This is common in scripts across moviedom.

However, this left a gap between TFA's perception of Luke, and what TLJ portrayed to us. That causes some dissonance to the viewer. I personally liked how TLJ showed Luke for the most part, BUT the TLJ Luke does make you wonder why he even left a map in TFA to begin with. This is something that was never and probably will never be answered.

He didn't leave it. It was an old star chart of the jedi to find that old Temple. Somehow everyone just knew that's where Luke went.

Probably because that planet was The Force's most famous ancient shrine, or else it was a lucky guess, or else the director thought it would be boring to show Rey going to half a dozen planets before finding the right one, or something.

The point is that the story demands that Rey finds the light sabre and brings it to Luke, so the star map and the light sabre are made available to enable her to do this. In the second film we move on to the confrontation between Rey and Luke, which IMO is a more interesting part of the story.

Going into hiding is one thing. Leaving behind a puzzle that allows you to be found under certain circumstances is another. It suggests that Luke wanted to be found at a certain moment. However, this is entirely forgotten by Episode VIII.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Don’t get the thread locked. It’s one of my last remaining pleasures around here.

I also remembered something. The whole map plot from TFA; that suggested Luke wanted to be found right? But come TLJ, it turns out he didn’t want to be found? I’m I getting it wrong or is there a plot hole there?

Ya that was a major dick move on lukes part. watch your nephew fall to the dark side, unleash him upon the galaxy with all your students, then run away and hide while your sister has to deal with her kid and your mess. Then he cuts himself off from the force in case leia tries to reach him by force twitter.

What other students? Were there any other students? If so who were they and where are they now? I believe that whole Knights of Ren thing was another JJ mystery box from TFA that RJ destroyed in TLJ. They haven't shown up yet and it would be pretty difficult to suddenly put them in IX.


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 Kilkrazy wrote:
Probably because that planet was The Force's most famous ancient shrine, or else it was a lucky guess, or else the director thought it would be boring to show Rey going to half a dozen planets before finding the right one, or something.

The point is that the story demands that Rey finds the light sabre and brings it to Luke, so the star map and the light sabre are made available to enable her to do this. In the second film we move on to the confrontation between Rey and Luke, which IMO is a more interesting part of the story.

I agree that the search for the star map to enable Rey to bring Luke his old lightsaber wasn't particularly interesting since it always felt like a contrived Help us Obi Wan you're our only hope 2.0 story arc with a predictable ending (I doubt anyone really thought Rey wouldn't find Luke eventually).

I disagree that the Rey and Luke interaction was interesting or compelling. If Rey had arrived at the Jedi shrine and Luke wasn't there and Rey found the temple, the tree with the books and the cave with the dark side visions on her own, kept the lightsaber, explored the cave, force skyped with Ben/Kylo, took the books and left what would be different? What happened between Luke and Rey during the 2 days she was on the island that was compelling? What did Rey's interaction with Luke accomplish that wouldn't have happened otherwise? Ben/Kylo still would have told Rey about her parents and about Luke's moment of doubt/attempt to murder him. It seemed obvious to me that Rey was going back to the resistance whether Luke agreed to come back or not.

The most interesting part of Rey's stay on the island was the revelation about the fall out between Luke and Ben, which had nothing to do with Rey at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
Going into hiding is one thing. Leaving behind a puzzle that allows you to be found under certain circumstances is another. It suggests that Luke wanted to be found at a certain moment. However, this is entirely forgotten by Episode VIII.

Did R2 accompany Luke to the island and then somehow leave on his own or did Luke put the map section in R2 and drop R2 off before reaching the island planet so R2 could rejoin the resistance? I can't recall how the movie handled that question.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Easy E wrote:
The Map was just a McGuffin and once its usefulness to the plot was over, it was discarded. This is common in scripts across moviedom.

However, this left a gap between TFA's perception of Luke, and what TLJ portrayed to us. That causes some dissonance to the viewer. I personally liked how TLJ showed Luke for the most part, BUT the TLJ Luke does make you wonder why he even left a map in TFA to begin with. This is something that was never and probably will never be answered.

I think you're absolutely right and TLJ is full of continuity issues like that and the degree to which the dissonance between TFA and TLJ affected your ability to enjoy TLJ seems to be the key contributor to whether or not you liked the movie.

Based on C-3P0 saying R2 hadn't moved since Luke left, I guess R2 never went to Planet Ireland before the events of TLJ.

Prestor Jon wrote:
I think you're absolutely right and TLJ is full of continuity issues like that and the degree to which the dissonance between TFA and TLJ affected your ability to enjoy TLJ seems to be the key contributor to whether or not you liked the movie.

I don't think there is any singular key contributor to why people didn't like it. The movie has a whole host of flaws that might have contributed to why people didn't like it.

To be honest, I didn't even notice the discontinuity between TFA and TLJ because it's been 2 years since TFA and it wasn't a memorable enough movie for me to remember where we were up to, other than major plot points of course, but most of the smaller details had slipped my mind by the time I watched TLJ.

I still managed to find plenty of things I didn't like about TLJ though

sirlynchmob wrote:
The words of dark helmet were never more true than in this movie.
"evil will always triumph because good is dumb"

Well, Evil didn't exactly cover itself with glory in this movie either.

1) General Hux... wait. First off, why is a GENERAL in charge of a fleet? Surely there's an ADMIRAL around who can run a fleet better than Hux does. That's a major Idiot Ball moment for Snoke, putting Hux in command of his fleet. If Hux is really the best he's got, he's got no business even operating a fleet.

2) Hux then goes to attack a Resistance base - a base he knows is equipped with stub fighters of the type that just took down Starkiller Base - without deploying his own fighters to defend against them.

3) Hux is further successfully delayed for several minutes by Poe, rather than just opening fire and blowing that stationary X-wing into orbital debris.

4) Fast forward a bit, Hux finds the Resistance fleet in deep space... why does only ONE ship ever fire on the Resistance? For that matter, why not use the several hundred (if not several thousand) TIE fighters and bombers go whole hog on that pathetic fleet remnant?

5) Sure, your star destroyers can't keep up with the Resistance in normal space, and the Resistance can't go into hyperspace due to fuel shortages. Ah, Hux, there's nothing stopping YOUR ships from hopping into hyperspace for a couple seconds and creating a nice little Resistance sandwich...

6) Snoke then COMPLETELY misreads Kylo Ren, completing his time with the Idiot Ball. And life.

7) Sure, the hyperspace ram did quite a bit of damage to your fleet. Surely an orbital bombardment with what was left would have been more effective than landing troops.

8) I'm not sure how well a lightsaber would deflect shots from the AT... whatever those were. I'm pretty sure Ren didn't know either. Having them all shoot at Luke was foolhardy.

9) Pausing the whole assault while Ren dueled Luke was also foolhardy. Surely Ren could have tied Luke up sufficiently for the rest of the troops to finish off the Resistance.

10) Please tell me the TIE fighter pilots are not so inept as to ALL be shot down by the Millennium Falcon... If it's true, then Snoke really jumped the gun. He needed another decade or so to train decent fighter pilots... and ideally, a decent set of fleet commanders too.

8) I'm not sure how well a lightsaber would deflect shots from the AT... whatever those were. I'm pretty sure Ren didn't know either. Having them all shoot at Luke was foolhardy.

The bigger AT-AT's? That's the AT-M6. All Terrain MegaCaliber Six (The weird name is because of the armament apparently)

 Vulcan wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
The words of dark helmet were never more true than in this movie.
"evil will always triumph because good is dumb"

Well, Evil didn't exactly cover itself with glory in this movie either.

1) General Hux... wait. First off, why is a GENERAL in charge of a fleet? Surely there's an ADMIRAL around who can run a fleet better than Hux does. That's a major Idiot Ball moment for Snoke, putting Hux in command of his fleet. If Hux is really the best he's got, he's got no business even operating a fleet.

2) Hux then goes to attack a Resistance base - a base he knows is equipped with stub fighters of the type that just took down Starkiller Base - without deploying his own fighters to defend against them.

3) Hux is further successfully delayed for several minutes by Poe, rather than just opening fire and blowing that stationary X-wing into orbital debris.

4) Fast forward a bit, Hux finds the Resistance fleet in deep space... why does only ONE ship ever fire on the Resistance? For that matter, why not use the several hundred (if not several thousand) TIE fighters and bombers go whole hog on that pathetic fleet remnant?

5) Sure, your star destroyers can't keep up with the Resistance in normal space, and the Resistance can't go into hyperspace due to fuel shortages. Ah, Hux, there's nothing stopping YOUR ships from hopping into hyperspace for a couple seconds and creating a nice little Resistance sandwich...

6) Snoke then COMPLETELY misreads Kylo Ren, completing his time with the Idiot Ball. And life.

7) Sure, the hyperspace ram did quite a bit of damage to your fleet. Surely an orbital bombardment with what was left would have been more effective than landing troops.

8) I'm not sure how well a lightsaber would deflect shots from the AT... whatever those were. I'm pretty sure Ren didn't know either. Having them all shoot at Luke was foolhardy.

9) Pausing the whole assault while Ren dueled Luke was also foolhardy. Surely Ren could have tied Luke up sufficiently for the rest of the troops to finish off the Resistance.

10) Please tell me the TIE fighter pilots are not so inept as to ALL be shot down by the Millennium Falcon... If it's true, then Snoke really jumped the gun. He needed another decade or so to train decent fighter pilots... and ideally, a decent set of fleet commanders too.

Yeah, there was a lot of stupid on the First Order side. Like, couldn't Ren have sent one AT forward while he duels Luke? Why didn't the rest of the fleet support the Dreadnought?
I understand why Ren ordered all units to attack Luke though. He really hates his old master, and trying to obliterate him with massed fire seems logical for him to do. Seeing Luke just shrug it off should have made him go "waaaait a minute, something doesn't seem right" though
Much like the Empire in Rogue One, the only reason why the rebels are successful is because the First Order are dumb. How am I supposed to take them seriously as a threat if they are such bad tacticians?

Virtually nothing in the film makes any sense and the plot and pacing is just so bad that its all noticable.

A decent director could have distracted attention from he and his teams inability or disinterest in makig anything coherent, but nope thats not what we got.

I think we've done this topic to death by now.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Virtually nothing in the film makes any sense and the plot and pacing is just so bad that its all noticable.

That's probably the crux if it, yeah.

Thanks for confirming.