No explaination of who Rey is (parents are junk traders?) okay...
No explaination of who Snoke is (He's just all powerful and evil and leading this new first order thing (which also isn't explained as to why it is so powerful) but at the same time he totally weak - defeated by simple force trick)
Lots of characters existing without needing to exist.
If Darthmaul was a cool character who didn't get enough character development then phasma is a not cool character that got no character development.
The resistance is too weak to be considered a threat (there must actually be some other active resistance more capable of facing this awesome force that shouldn't even exist called the new order - can we do a story about those guys?)
Laser cannons have arcs in space? (I admit it looks cool but none the less - guns should not arc in space this is a big no no)
If driving a cruiser in hyperspace is so effective at destroying entire fleets...why don't we just hyperspace the ships running out of fuel into the giant fleet coming behind us?(oh yeah because we are stupid - I guess inertia is a thing and not a thing at the exact same time - this is fail science.)
Random appearance of r2. Nothing can change my mind R2...(hologram) Alright...that was a low blow.
Random non appearance of Obiwan...Anaken....
Terrible plot...special mission to shut down the tracking device...plan fails...complete waste of time.
Benicio Del Toro - how did he get involved in this mess? Completely forced character that didn't need to exist - on a mission that didn't need to exist....my gosh.
Kylo Ren....I don't even know what to say about this terrible character other than he is terrible and I can't believe this is the best they could do with him.
There sure are lots of female commanders...I mean...the male leadership is almost non existent for the rebels - theory one (this film was hijacked by a feminist group)
Rey - The film it's-self said she had no part to play in this saga. Where would we be without a Heroine front and center and the best part is - though she is nobody - she is also the wisest character in the movie. Except for maybe Ghost Yoda.
The only saving grace of this film is the love of Poe Dameron for Rd8 - love me some droid love - and Rd8 comic releif is actually very much needed because it is crap.
Anyways...I know people will still say phantom menace is worse but that is just hilarious to me if you think that. Phantom menace puts this movie to shame. If you just remove Jar Jar binks from phantom menace you'd be left with a great film. To remove the parts I didn't like from last Jedi I'd be left with a short series of Rd8 clips.
That's what I think anyways.
I have been asked as to how I would have handled Han Solo in these new films, and the answer is simple:
The plot would have had the heroes end up on the planet where Solo and Leia are retired. The heroes would have had to be rescued from some danger, thus giving Solo one last scene of being a bad ass.
Everybody goes to Han's house for Sunday dinner. The plot moves on from a result of info from Solo. The heroes try to persuade Solo to come with him. He refuses. I've done my bit, I'm too old, it's your fight etc etc etc
The heroes leave, and as they head out the door, Solo tosses them the keys to the Falcon, wishes them luck, and the baton is passed on to the new generation.
Yeah, hardly original, but perfectly fits with Star Wars, and leaves everybody warm and fuzzy inside.
And infinitely preferable to the sack of gak that we did get.
No explaination of who Rey is (parents are junk traders?) okay...
No explaination of who Snoke is (He's just all powerful and evil and leading this new first order thing (which also isn't explained as to why it is so powerful) but at the same time he totally weak - defeated by simple force trick)
Lots of characters existing without needing to exist.
If Darthmaul was a cool character who didn't get enough character development then phasma is a not cool character that got no character development.
The resistance is too weak to be considered a threat (there must actually be some other active resistance more capable of facing this awesome force that shouldn't even exist called the new order - can we do a story about those guys?)
Laser cannons have arcs in space? (I admit it looks cool but none the less - guns should not arc in space this is a big no no)
If driving a cruiser in hyperspace is so effective at destroying entire fleets...why don't we just hyperspace the ships running out of fuel into the giant fleet coming behind us?(oh yeah because we are stupid - I guess inertia is a thing and not a thing at the exact same time - this is fail science.)
Random appearance of r2. Nothing can change my mind R2...(hologram) Alright...that was a low blow.
Random non appearance of Obiwan...Anaken....
Terrible plot...special mission to shut down the tracking device...plan fails...complete waste of time.
Benicio Del Toro - how did he get involved in this mess? Completely forced character that didn't need to exist - on a mission that didn't need to exist....my gosh.
Kylo Ren....I don't even know what to say about this terrible character other than he is terrible and I can't believe this is the best they could do with him.
There sure are lots of female commanders...I mean...the male leadership is almost non existent for the rebels - theory one (this film was hijacked by a feminist group)
Rey - The film it's-self said she had no part to play in this saga. Where would we be without a Heroine front and center and the best part is - though she is nobody - she is also the wisest character in the movie. Except for maybe Ghost Yoda.
The only saving grace of this film is the love of Poe Dameron for Rd8 - love me some droid love - and Rd8 comic releif is actually very much needed because it is crap.
Anyways...I know people will still say phantom menace is worse but that is just hilarious to me if you think that. Phantom menace puts this movie to shame. If you just remove Jar Jar binks from phantom menace you'd be left with a great film. To remove the parts I didn't like from last Jedi I'd be left with a short series of Rd8 clips.
That's what I think anyways.
The entire point of Finn and Rose's "mission" was too fail because sometimes heroes DO fail. It also gives us fallible characters in that those two+Poe thought they knew better and were promptly proven wrong.
Rey does have a part to play and she's hardly the wisest seeing how Kylo deceived her...to some extent. If anything she has the wisdom of children in that her views are not jaded by any knowledge of the galaxy. She has the youthful optimism that Luke once had.
Most of what you wrote is either simply opinion, you angry that they didn't do your movie, or simply not getting it.
I'm glad they dropped a freaking rock on the fandom's head.
No explaination of who Rey is (parents are junk traders?) okay...
No explaination of who Snoke is (He's just all powerful and evil and leading this new first order thing (which also isn't explained as to why it is so powerful) but at the same time he totally weak - defeated by simple force trick)
Lots of characters existing without needing to exist.
If Darthmaul was a cool character who didn't get enough character development then phasma is a not cool character that got no character development.
The resistance is too weak to be considered a threat (there must actually be some other active resistance more capable of facing this awesome force that shouldn't even exist called the new order - can we do a story about those guys?)
Laser cannons have arcs in space? (I admit it looks cool but none the less - guns should not arc in space this is a big no no)
If driving a cruiser in hyperspace is so effective at destroying entire fleets...why don't we just hyperspace the ships running out of fuel into the giant fleet coming behind us?(oh yeah because we are stupid - I guess inertia is a thing and not a thing at the exact same time - this is fail science.)
Random appearance of r2. Nothing can change my mind R2...(hologram) Alright...that was a low blow.
Random non appearance of Obiwan...Anaken....
Terrible plot...special mission to shut down the tracking device...plan fails...complete waste of time.
Benicio Del Toro - how did he get involved in this mess? Completely forced character that didn't need to exist - on a mission that didn't need to exist....my gosh.
Kylo Ren....I don't even know what to say about this terrible character other than he is terrible and I can't believe this is the best they could do with him.
There sure are lots of female commanders...I mean...the male leadership is almost non existent for the rebels - theory one (this film was hijacked by a feminist group)
Rey - The film it's-self said she had no part to play in this saga. Where would we be without a Heroine front and center and the best part is - though she is nobody - she is also the wisest character in the movie. Except for maybe Ghost Yoda.
The only saving grace of this film is the love of Poe Dameron for Rd8 - love me some droid love - and Rd8 comic releif is actually very much needed because it is crap.
Anyways...I know people will still say phantom menace is worse but that is just hilarious to me if you think that. Phantom menace puts this movie to shame. If you just remove Jar Jar binks from phantom menace you'd be left with a great film. To remove the parts I didn't like from last Jedi I'd be left with a short series of Rd8 clips.
That's what I think anyways.
The entire point of Finn and Rose's "mission" was too fail because sometimes heroes DO fail. It also gives us fallible characters in that those two+Poe thought they knew better and were promptly proven wrong.
Rey does have a part to play and she's hardly the wisest seeing how Kylo deceived her...to some extent. If anything she has the wisdom of children in that her views are not jaded by any knowledge of the galaxy. She has the youthful optimism that Luke once had.
Most of what you wrote is either simply opinion, you angry that they didn't do your movie, or simply not getting it.
I'm glad they dropped a freaking rock on the fandom's head.
In the process of dropping a rock on the fandoms head they are destroying something great by not realizing why it was great. That's not the only problem ether...It seems they have forgoten how to make a movie / devolve a character / not make plot holes.
The entire point of Finn and Rose's "mission" was too fail because sometimes heroes DO fail. It also gives us fallible characters in that those two+Poe thought they knew better and were promptly proven wrong.
Rey does have a part to play and she's hardly the wisest seeing how Kylo deceived her...to some extent. If anything she has the wisdom of children in that her views are not jaded by any knowledge of the galaxy. She has the youthful optimism that Luke once had.
Most of what you wrote is either simply opinion, you angry that they didn't do your movie, or simply not getting it.
I'm glad they dropped a freaking rock on the fandom's head.
I think you described my biggest issue with these movies. They are a very well executed SW meta-commentaries. But they are awful SW movies. Look at what you wrote about Finn and Rose. Is meta. Nothing to do with the characters and their role within the story. They put them in their containment plot because they had to. Is like Phasma. Never seen something so pointless. They HAD to have her do... something. Is a clear filler.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I have been asked as to how I would have handled Han Solo in these new films, and the answer is simple:
The plot would have had the heroes end up on the planet where Solo and Leia are retired. The heroes would have had to be rescued from some danger, thus giving Solo one last scene of being a bad ass.
Everybody goes to Han's house for Sunday dinner. The plot moves on from a result of info from Solo. The heroes try to persuade Solo to come with him. He refuses. I've done my bit, I'm too old, it's your fight etc etc etc
The heroes leave, and as they head out the door, Solo tosses them the keys to the Falcon, wishes them luck, and the baton is passed on to the new generation.
Yeah, hardly original, but perfectly fits with Star Wars, and leaves everybody warm and fuzzy inside.
And infinitely preferable to the sack of gak that we did get.
That's honestly really terrible, even for back of the napkin plotting. Even worse than being murdered for being a deadbeat dad- at least that had some coherence with the overall story.
If that scenario is the extent of what you can come up with for an old character, you're better off not bringing them back at all.
Not sure what it has to do with the new film, either.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I have been asked as to how I would have handled Han Solo in these new films, and the answer is simple:
The plot would have had the heroes end up on the planet where Solo and Leia are retired. The heroes would have had to be rescued from some danger, thus giving Solo one last scene of being a bad ass.
Everybody goes to Han's house for Sunday dinner. The plot moves on from a result of info from Solo. The heroes try to persuade Solo to come with him. He refuses. I've done my bit, I'm too old, it's your fight etc etc etc
The heroes leave, and as they head out the door, Solo tosses them the keys to the Falcon, wishes them luck, and the baton is passed on to the new generation.
Yeah, hardly original, but perfectly fits with Star Wars, and leaves everybody warm and fuzzy inside.
And infinitely preferable to the sack of gak that we did get.
That's honestly really terrible, even for back of the napkin plotting. Even worse than being murdered for being a deadbeat dad- at least that had some coherence with the overall story.
If that scenario is the extent of what you can come up with for an old character, you're better off not bringing them back at all.
Not sure what it has to do with the new film, either.
I was making the point that both Luke and Han have been so badly handled, that somebody deserves to be hauled in front of The Hague for this outrage.
Wow totally don't understand the hate for this film. It was awesome.
People seem to forgot that the original trilogy is pretty light hearted, c3po and r2-d2 are comic relief most of the time.
There are some awesome set pieces in this film, and it is visually stunning. They also don't follow the path everyone was expecting. Kylo being redeemed would have been so dull, he followed the sith way, by killing his master.
It answered a bunch of questions left by the force awakens, and leaves a bunch of new ones to be answered.
trexmeyer wrote: It's not pointless. You think it's pointless because you're entirely fixated on the end and not the process.
I am sorry but this is a completely void statement. It means nothing.
Really? You can't understand that? You can't see how Rose, Finn, and Poe all grew as characters and learned from their mistakes? You're obsessed with the fact their plan failed.
Thought experiment: Take Finn and Rose out of the movie entirely. What does that get us? Well, we might hit a swift 2 hour run time, and nobody betrays the Resistance transports (so you might have to tweak that bit to allow the FO to follow).
They literally do nothing useful for this film. They (and not only they) are bloat and filler.
Tamereth wrote: Wow totally don't understand the hate for this film. It was awesome.
People seem to forgot that the original trilogy is pretty light hearted, c3po and r2-d2 are comic relief most of the time.
There are some awesome set pieces in this film, and it is visually stunning. They also don't follow the path everyone was expecting. Kylo being redeemed would have been so dull, he followed the sith way, by killing his master.
It answered a bunch of questions left by the force awakens, and leaves a bunch of new ones to be answered.
What questions did it answer? I think it answered nothing. It hints at a few things but answers none of the big questions.
#1 - Why is the resistance so weak? What do they actually resist? The other side is why is the first order so strong?
#2 - Who is snoke? This trilogy is impossible without him. Yet - we learned nothing about him and now hes dead.
#3 - Rey - unexplained.
The Poe/Finn plan is about them finding out you can just punch/cunning your way out of every situation. I felt it raised the stakes and the tension really nicely. Indeed, had it not been for the trailer showing Finn piloting the Ski Speeder, I'd have been seriously wondering how he was to get out of that one.
Tamereth wrote: Wow totally don't understand the hate for this film. It was awesome.
People seem to forgot that the original trilogy is pretty light hearted, c3po and r2-d2 are comic relief most of the time.
There are some awesome set pieces in this film, and it is visually stunning. They also don't follow the path everyone was expecting. Kylo being redeemed would have been so dull, he followed the sith way, by killing his master.
It answered a bunch of questions left by the force awakens, and leaves a bunch of new ones to be answered.
What questions did it answer? I think it answered nothing. It hints at a few things but answers none of the big questions.
#1 - Why is the resistance so weak? What do they actually resist? The other side is why is the first order so strong?
#2 - Who is snoke? This trilogy is impossible without him. Yet - we learned nothing about him and now hes dead.
#3 - Rey - unexplained.
#1 - Read 'Aftermath' and 'Bloodlines'. These set out the political backdrop of the New Republic.
#2 - He's The Emperor's successor. Again, read 'Aftermath' to know more about what happened post-Endor (Empire's End is really the salient book there)
#3 - What's to explain? She's a nobody. She serves to demonstrate you don't need to be a Skywaker to be strong in the force. And arguably, she will turn out to be the Chosen One after all.
Watched it last night, I basically felt like I'd just watched "Marvel's Star Wars" or "Avengers: Galactic War".
Lots of pretty special effects driven action and theatrically choreographed fight scenes, relatively unsubtle and incoherent plot with more DeusExMachinas than you can shake a stick at, and lots of somewhat hamfisted camp.
Probably about what I should have expected.
Still have no idea who the hell Snoke or the First Order are relative to the Empire, what happened to the rest of the empire after Palpatine, or basically anything between Ep 6 and 7.
Apparently its covered in books and whatnot, but I really dont care enough to go out and buy and read books just to make a movie make sense.
It was fun for turning your brain off and watching pretty booms, they did a good job there, but they could have cut an hour out of the movie to hit that.
trexmeyer wrote: It's not pointless. You think it's pointless because you're entirely fixated on the end and not the process.
I am sorry but this is a completely void statement. It means nothing.
Really? You can't understand that? You can't see how Rose, Finn, and Poe all grew as characters and learned from their mistakes? You're obsessed with the fact their plan failed.
Better not watch A Bridge Too Far.
I don't see them grow a characters because they are not even characters. See Finn, as an example. Do you think that this is a well developed ex-stormtrooper? His conflict and the actions, the indoctrinations received, the interactions with the characters were absolutely inappropriate for such background. He could have been a very interesting characters but they transformed him in a quippy tagalong 10 minutes within the first movie. And this is why his confrontations with Phasma fall flat. We cannot feel anything with a character like this.
Also, the subplot in EP VIII is a genuine derailment, it has a basic problem on the narrative standpoint. Failure as a theme is very interesting but it must be well built into the framework of the movie. This did not happen here. Also, very, very please, don't try to play the pseudo intellectual card using a 1977 movie to create an angry neckbeard strawman. Better not to go in that direction, my man. The movie has problem in basic continuity, stuff a noob film student would not make.
I would like to point out, that if you have to do background reading to properly understand a movie. The movie is doing a bad job of telling the story.
The Poe/Finn plan is about them finding out you can just punch/cunning your way out of every situation. I felt it raised the stakes and the tension really nicely. Indeed, had it not been for the trailer showing Finn piloting the Ski Speeder, I'd have been seriously wondering how he was to get out of that one.
Tamereth wrote: Wow totally don't understand the hate for this film. It was awesome.
People seem to forgot that the original trilogy is pretty light hearted, c3po and r2-d2 are comic relief most of the time.
There are some awesome set pieces in this film, and it is visually stunning. They also don't follow the path everyone was expecting. Kylo being redeemed would have been so dull, he followed the sith way, by killing his master.
It answered a bunch of questions left by the force awakens, and leaves a bunch of new ones to be answered.
What questions did it answer? I think it answered nothing. It hints at a few things but answers none of the big questions.
#1 - Why is the resistance so weak? What do they actually resist? The other side is why is the first order so strong?
#2 - Who is snoke? This trilogy is impossible without him. Yet - we learned nothing about him and now hes dead.
#3 - Rey - unexplained.
#1 - Read 'Aftermath' and 'Bloodlines'. These set out the political backdrop of the New Republic.
#2 - He's The Emperor's successor. Again, read 'Aftermath' to know more about what happened post-Endor (Empire's End is really the salient book there)
#3 - What's to explain? She's a nobody. She serves to demonstrate you don't need to be a Skywaker to be strong in the force. And arguably, she will turn out to be the Chosen One after all.
I read a lot of starwars books that officially didn't happen now. I'm never reading a starwars book again. The emperor can't have a successor anyways - he had vader and vader killed him. Sith lords only have 1 apprentice at a time - that is kind of their thing. In any case - you shouldn't have to read books to watch a movie.
Tamereth wrote: Wow totally don't understand the hate for this film. It was awesome.
People seem to forgot that the original trilogy is pretty light hearted, c3po and r2-d2 are comic relief most of the time.
"lighthearted" does not mean "badly build". Also, the originals have light-hearted moments but the mood of the single scenes is appropriate. Luke does not start to quip after he sees his uncle charred body. In TFA, Poe says the "who talks first?" line on the scene of a massacre. The tone is completely off. Also, in a typical J.J. and Marvel style, this kind of lines are very self-aware and meta. If these are family movies, they should focus on keep the kids within the movie, and not wink to older people almost to say "still fan of an old space opera, what a nerd AMRITE?".
They look clever but they are horrible. They break an illusion. And I reiterate this - these are "meta" movies. The target is not kids, the target is the older audience. If you target something to kids, you don't make the movie self-aware that is a movie. Is horribly cynical.
Riquende wrote: Thought experiment: Take Finn and Rose out of the movie entirely. What does that get us? Well, we might hit a swift 2 hour run time, and nobody betrays the Resistance transports (so you might have to tweak that bit to allow the FO to follow).
They literally do nothing useful for this film. They (and not only they) are bloat and filler.
Is that along the lines of the "Indiana Jones does not matter in the Raiders of the Lost Ark film" argument from Big Bang
Did I enjoy? First scene was enjoyable. Watching cruiser hyper suicide into snoke's ship looked awesome even if it makes no sense. Always enjoy watching the Millennium Falcon fly through tight tunnels. I actually liked the 3 minutes of fame snoke got in the film - wish there was more snoke.
I don't feel like my money was stolen from me - It was too long for sure. So I guess I should just say I enjoyed parts of it.
8. Holdo punching the Raddus through the First Order fleet at lightspeed was one of the coolest things I've ever seen in a Star Wars movie.
The Raddus crippling Snoke's ship was cool. it some how also killing every Star Destroyer, even those that weren't even in a position to receive fragmentation was not. Plus, if you can just hyperdrive straight through strong shields and the shield of other Ships with the backblast, why even bother with blasters, surely you can have Hyperspace Guns.
All and all I'm not even sure what to think about the movie. I liked parts, Reylo, Poe, Dreadnaught Captain, Luke, Benicio Del Toro. But I disliked alot of parts as well, Leia (just in general as much as I hate to say it), Benicio Del Toro being under utilized, Poe and Hux's Marvel interactions in the start of the movie, Admiral Holden (not because she was the wall for Poe to run into, but because I felt like they should of had her and Poe grow to trust one another, rather than sacrificing herself), Too much humor, the stupid horse chase thing on Casino World, The stupid bird things from Luke's Island, Snoke being pretty much irrelevant (though i did like him).
#1 - Read 'Aftermath' and 'Bloodlines'. These set out the political backdrop of the New Republic.
Which still doesnt really make sense. And as has been said the average view shouldnt need to read the books,
#2 - He's The Emperor's successor. Again, read 'Aftermath' to know more about what happened post-Endor (Empire's End is really the salient book there)
Snoke has nothing to do with that book series at all, infact hes not even mentioned.
#3 - What's to explain? She's a nobody. She serves to demonstrate you don't need to be a Skywaker to be strong in the force. And arguably, she will turn out to be the Chosen One after all.
eh, I enjoyed some parts, but ultimately I walked away feeling like I watched a reskin of The Avengers with an extra hour tacked on, and, more to the point I guess, have no real desire or interest in watching whatever comes next.
The remaining characters are not particularly compelling to me nor seemingly particularly rooted to any of those that came before and that hooked me in the earlier movies, the story presented was extremely garbled and delivered in a way that just didn't click for me (especially the campy elements) and there's just not much about the story that drives me to find out what happens next.
I went into this movie avoiding all trailers, all spoilers, anything that would give anything away, and after that, I just dont think ill care when the next one rolls around. Ill see whatever comes out next, but itll be a torrent months after release thing for me, not an opening night theater event.
Everybody wants to be a Jedi, but then we find out lukes only going to be one because his father was. Then we find out his father is darth Vader, then we find out his father was an immaculate conception of the force.
Now we're back to anybody can be force sensitive, you don't have to be a bloody godly skywalker.
I'm not saying the film is flawless by any means. Leia's Superman impression in space wasn't done well. And finn's story does feel a bit bloaty. Like they wrote the first draft then realized they needed something for him to do other than be in a coma.
I also would have liked a bit of background for snoke, but is it really needed. He's an evil powerful sith lord. End of.
Given time I'm sure we'll get films that fill in the gap between rotj and tfa, but the factured empires' factions fighting each other / the new republic has been done 1000's of times in other media over the last 30 years. I like that this is new, and is set a good time jump from the originals to make the original cast members age make sense.
I need to get a poster of the supremacy death scene, that looked super gorgeous.
I also would have liked a bit of background for snoke, but is it really needed. He's an evil powerful sith lord. End of.
I think that what happened with Snoke is a huge giveaway of one (or both) of these scenarios
I) They have no plan and they are making up stuff along the way. That is, in part, what the old creators did, too, but I have to acknowledge that there are many ways to create stuff along the way, with sensibly different levels of competence
II) They are not laying out the story along the lines of a message or archetype, but just for the sake of the shock value. In other words, now Star Wars is a TV series. The appeal is to the Game of Thrones crowd. a story littered with he corpses of the characters, not in function of their arcs or of a greater narrative, but because of the shock value associated.*
*EDIT: Addendum - even the internal consistency of the universe is sacrificed to the altar of shock value. See, as an example, the preposterous bullcrap pulled in TFA or TLJ with the light speed. Like the quips or the inconsistencies, they are slowly chipping away the suspension of disbelief. The magic. And you cannot have a kid movie without this kind of magic.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tamereth wrote: Ray's parents being nobodies is a good thing.
I think that people "required" Rey to be a Skywalker, fanwank notwithstanding, because of her very quick "Sue-ish" rapid development in TFA. Others supposed an amnesia or something. I remember very well my friends coming up with these theories when I went back then, and I found them everywhere.
A force sensitive out of the blue makes sense - after all, is what all the non-skywalkers in the saga are implied to be. But *Rey* specifically is problematic as a character, more so without one of these possible backgrounds (or another on that way).
Force sensitive out of the blue is fine. It's actually what I was expecting. The flashbacks of the being left on Jaku by someone who could easily have been luke. Kaiyanwang I think has it right. They are making it up as it goes along - taking poll about what people what to happen and then picking the result that is the most shocking in a game of thrones type way. I didn't like game of thrones for the same reason.
Visuals are awesome, especially the light speed crash, the salt planet.
Rey and Kylo get character development
Poe is moving into a Han role. Also, looks like poe and daisy may end up together with Finn and Rose as couple #2.
Yoda (even if his head looked funny)
We got Nudity in a star wars movie! Lots of nipples! LOL
The Bad 2 things that can fix this:
1.) Too much comedy. Disney is doing this to the Marvel Comic universe, they did it to Pirates of the Caribbean, now SW. I get it, the mouse likes to make kids laugh, but you can use a bit of subtlety.
I don't need every epic/dramatic moment to be undercut with a quip or one liner. Your audience is smart, let them get the alluding humor.
The casino scene did seem filler, but I am fairly certain its being used to setup the next 10,11,12 films. Its going to be the new Tatooine of sorts. (see the end scene with the boy who uses the force to grab the broom)
2.) Give us a decent villian for SITH's sake. Kylo is the "villian" but he is too emo. I get they are going for the conflicted character, and he did grow on me this movie, but he is in no way frightening.
Phasma- psshhh, her and Boba need to have a drinking match on who got the short end of the stick (pun intended) worse.
Hux-LOL where to start, he is wormy, stupid, weak, crys. How the feth did this guy become a general. At least the guy in the dreadnougt could recognize Poe's tactics. Hell, Piet was better than this guy.
Snoke- an empty shell. He is not the emperor, the emperor had backstory (even in the original trilogy) we get references to him killing off the senate, training vadar etc...
Snoke is like Dooku or grevious or even maul (but not as cool as any of these) in that he is there to fill the villian slot.
Things to fix:
Honestly, they should have just picked a genius admiral like tarkin/thrawn and ran him as the Hux role the entire trilogy.
They should have had Rey join Kylo. She is so tempted by the darkside on the island, arguably even more so than luke and she just resist. It would have been better to have her join Kylo, they take out snoke and then create the new "grey order".
Then she is pulled back to the light in ep 9. This could have been the dark moment at the end like in ESB where Kylo extends his hand and she joins. . No way are reys parents just junkers. Luke mentions how strong she is in the force. Kylo lies to everyone to get what he wants.
Benico del Torro should have been Lando.
Disney is afraid to take dramatic dark moments and make them end with the bad guys winning.
I don’t really agree that Kylo Ren is Emo. Rather, he’s a deeply conflicted individual, and a loose cannon.
From his point of view, everyone he’s ever known has simply tried to manipulate and control him for their own ends.
I mean, we’ve all been angst riddled teenagers, let alone with a strong connection to a power we can’t explain, and a Grandad either lauded or hated. We also weren’t the child of two living legends, who ultimately palmed us off onto our Uncle, who essentially demanded we follow his religion.
Then of course along comes Snoke. Likely with a ‘I can help you reach your potential” blah blah blah, who persuades you to do stuff you won’t necessarily agree with or enjoy. And then, at the first hint of failure, taunts and belittles you.
That’s not Emo. That’s being a genuine emotional wreck. All he’s ever known is pretty much abuse.
Visuals are awesome, especially the light speed crash,
This scene was ruined for me by the mass of people in the theatre clapping and whooping and talking/exclaiming loudly as it happened, sucking all the cool factor out of it and the intentionally muted audio of the immediate aftermath.
In fact, the audience and people clapping and doing dumb crap like that when main characters and whatnot showed up ruined a lot of it
Thats a big reason why I normally dont go see movies in actual theatres, the general public makes really poor movie companions. Crappy uncomfortable seats, $13 ticket prices, and concessions that cost 5x what they do anywhere else seals the deal.
#thisiswhypeoplepiratestuff
I think this was the first opening night show at a normal theatre ive been to since...the first Hobbit movie? Its been a while, will probably be a long while before I try it again.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I don’t really agree that Kylo Ren is Emo. Rather, he’s a deeply conflicted individual, and a loose cannon.
From his point of view, everyone he’s ever known has simply tried to manipulate and control him for their own ends.
I mean, we’ve all been angst riddled teenagers, let alone with a strong connection to a power we can’t explain, and a Grandad either lauded or hated. We also weren’t the child of two living legends, who ultimately palmed us off onto our Uncle, who essentially demanded we follow his religion.
Then of course along comes Snoke. Likely with a ‘I can help you reach your potential” blah blah blah, who persuades you to do stuff you won’t necessarily agree with or enjoy. And then, at the first hint of failure, taunts and belittles you.
That’s not Emo. That’s being a genuine emotional wreck. All he’s ever known is pretty much abuse.
No, that's an emo teen's prettified conception of what abuse is. And pretty much every genre-unsavvy Harry Potter-verse Slytherin character. Not quite perfect life means 'darkness' and 'sadness' but mostly any excuse to seize power.
It's probably the least satisfying way to develop a villain or anti-hero- they just come off as a spoiled brat.
Visuals are awesome, especially the light speed crash,
This scene was ruined for me by the mass of people in the theatre clapping and whooping and talking/exclaiming loudly as it happened, sucking all the cool factor out of it and the intentionally muted audio of the immediate aftermath.
In fact, the audience and people clapping and doing dumb crap like that when main characters and whatnot showed up ruined a lot of it
I agree it's annoying. Fortunately, people in where I live are far too reserved for that...I got to enjoy the scene in relative silence.
There were some cheers at points from the audience I saw it with, and I thought that was awesome
Loved Chewbacca's little "sidekicks". And I'm liking the overall story arc the more I think about it.
Do we know if Carrie Fisher finished filming of the third movie? The dedication to her at the end was great... kind of cool to see her passing on leadership of the rebellion in the movie somewhat subtly, too.
Tamereth wrote: Wow totally don't understand the hate for this film. It was awesome.
People seem to forgot that the original trilogy is pretty light hearted, c3po and r2-d2 are comic relief most of the time.
"lighthearted" does not mean "badly build".
Also, the originals have light-hearted moments but the mood of the single scenes is appropriate. Luke does not start to quip after he sees his uncle charred body.
In TFA, Poe says the "who talks first?" line on the scene of a massacre. The tone is completely off.
Also, in a typical J.J. and Marvel style, this kind of lines are very self-aware and meta. If these are family movies, they should focus on keep the kids within the movie, and not wink to older people almost to say "still fan of an old space opera, what a nerd AMRITE?".
They look clever but they are horrible. They break an illusion. And I reiterate this - these are "meta" movies. The target is not kids, the target is the older audience. If you target something to kids, you don't make the movie self-aware that is a movie. Is horribly cynical.
Very much this.
What I also struggle with is the need to turn these sequels in to a pastiche of the original trilogy. I understand the need for a new young cast for a new generation of fans and I have zero problems with that, but why make these new characters go through near identical events from the original movies?
Does the nostalgia crowd really want to see all the classic scenes redone? Is recognition so important?
It's not new, Moore's re-imagination of Battle star Galatica started this trend, Abrams did it with the new Star Trek movies, a number of Hollywood remakes of classic movies ahve done it as well, and I think 2016 Ghostbusters' director Feig said it best: "To tell a story you've seen before, but in a way you haven't seen it".
Also I don't like the "bad ending" for the old cast. Han and Leia break up, their son turns to the dark side and kills his father, Luke becoming a bitter old hermit after his academy failed. And why? To sympathize with the fans and show that even their childhood heroes' failed to achieve their hopes and dreams just like you? I much prefer the send off in to the sunset in RoTJ. The cynic in me thinks it was simply done for shock value and to facilitate the 'Luke is the new Yoda' arc and a new Skywalker Vader.
Saw it today and quite liked it. There are aspects of the film that are fresh and exciting and probably the movie's biggest accomplishment over Ep7 is establishing the post RotJ world as a real place worth exploring.
It's got some significant pacing issues that are going to make it hard to rewatch. Finn's stuff is a big drag on the plot even if I like what the content is trying to add. It feels well suited to a novel in a lot of ways.
Rey and Kylo's arc is the best part of the film, but the movie continues for quite a while after it ends. The extra content is largely worthwhile, even great, but I can't help but feel like my investment had already paid off by the time the end really gets going.
I'm overall quite happy with the film but in some ways it feels like its really setting the stage for a truly spectacular finale. Time will tell, but overall I need to see how I feel about it on rewatch to know for sure where it ranks in my mind. Right now its not the top for sure, but definitely in the top half.
RiTides wrote: There were some cheers at points from the audience I saw it with, and I thought that was awesome
Loved Chewbacca's little "sidekicks". And I'm liking the overall story arc the more I think about it.
Do we know if Carrie Fisher finished filming of the third movie? The dedication to her at the end was great... kind of cool to see her passing on leadership of the rebellion in the movie somewhat subtly, too.
Episode IV begins filming this coming June, so no.
If things don't go bad where is the story? Stories do require conflict. The window of opportunity passed years ago as the trio aged and unless Disney opted to deploy CGI/makeup to de-age them they are basically forced to tell a story of an aging resistance.
I know people don't like it and I personally prefer the Thrawn trilogy (mostly) to what's on film, but when Lucas opted to do prequels instead of sequels back in 1999 the odds of anything like that being done were reduced to nil.
I'll bet we get a Thrawn movie sooner or later. The character is one of the best parts of Rebels and well received by fans as far as I can tell. I think it's just a matter of time.
Also I don't like the "bad ending" for the old cast. Han and Leia break up, their son turns to the dark side and kills his father, Luke becoming a bitter old hermit after his academy failed. And why? To sympathize with the fans and show that even their childhood heroes' failed to achieve their hopes and dreams just like you? I much prefer the send off in to the sunset in RoTJ. The cynic in me thinks it was simply done for shock value and to facilitate the 'Luke is the new Yoda' arc and a new Skywalker Vader.
Pretty much. Is a continuation of that cynical point of view. You cannot have a simple story with an hero journey and the heroes happy thereafter. Is "uncool". They are essentially trying to transform Lord of the Rings in A Song of Ice and Fire. Lotr:
Spoiler:
Where now are the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing? Where is the helm and the hauberk, and the bright hair flowing? Where is the harp on the harpstring, and the red fire glowing? Where is the spring and the harvest and the tall corn growing? They have passed like rain on the mountain, like a wind in the meadow; The days have gone down in the West behind the hills into shadow. Who shall gather the smoke of the deadwood burning, Or behold the flowing years from the Sea returning?
ASoIaF:
Spoiler:
Sunset found her squatting in the grass, groaning. Every stool was looser than the one before, and smelled fouler. By the time the moon came up she was gaking brown water. The more she drank, the more she shat, but the more she shat, the thirstier she grew, and her thirst sent her crawling to the stream to suck up more water.
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trexmeyer wrote: If things don't go bad where is the story? Stories do require conflict.
Conflict must be well build. When you get to the point that the optimistic hero of the last trilogy, the guy who redeemed his father, is considering to murder his relative in his sleep, is not good writing. When you have a guy that is essentially a fugitive Waffen-SS* becoming an entertaining quipping tagalong 10 minutes in the movie, is seriously time to stop. There is no conflict anymore, only contrivance for the sake of continuing a franchise. * I find amusing you talk about conflict. Finn should have been a walking conflict machine. The character wrote himself. What we had HEY DO YOU HAVE A BOYFRIEND
One thing I particularly enjoyed was the portrayal of Snoke's power over Kylo. It's something hinted at greatly in Vader's broken attitude in RotJ, but Palpatine's "something something Dark Side" speeches didn't really synch up with Vader's "inevitability" with Luke.
With Snoke we get a phenomenal depiction of what kind of power a Sith Lord really wields. It's not in throwing people around like a rag doll or throwing lightning, but to be inside their mind and know their every intention. It's a shame that was never depicted in the prequels display of Anakin's fall, because its something that's been nagging me since I rewatched the original trilogy prior to Ep7.
Also, Luke's greatest failure here is acting on a Force vision. By now it should be abundantly clear that the Force is just a massive troll and any glimpses of the future it offers are just to drive you to make that future happen.
Also I don't like the "bad ending" for the old cast. Han and Leia break up, their son turns to the dark side and kills his father, Luke becoming a bitter old hermit after his academy failed.
I can sympathize with the former, but not for Luke. By the original trilogy's logic and Luke's actions, he was clearly set to get a bad end. It's completely downplayed in the Ewok Party at the end of RotJ, but really...
Luke's training went poorly. 'Can't' was his favorite word, and most of his tests, he failed (the cave and x-wing, particularly), and then he just abandoned his training, recklessly. Sure, by the audience's morality (and the film's narrative), going to save your friends is the correct choice, but by the Jedi's, it simply isn't. This is further reinforced in the prequels, where his 'attachments' to his friends would clearly be wrong according to Jedi philosophy.
Remember, too, the 'forever will it dominate your destiny' line? Well, he slide down that slope several times (force choke, anyone?), both in Empire and Return (It doesn't seem to be a thing at all in the original film). But particularly at the climax of his confrontation with the Emperor- he was invited to give into hate and strike the Emperor down. And he did, willingly. That he was stopped by someone else makes no never mind- he took that leap out into the dark side, embracing the anger, hate and fear. So his destiny is dominated by it, forevermore- the setting's logic and apparently the very nature of the force doesn't give him an out once he crosses the line.
But frankly, as a teacher, there is no reason to expect Luke to do anything but fail. Going back to his own training- he didn't trust it, didn't finish it, and really knew or understood very little about it. He was simply the only option (which seems ridiculous in a galaxy-wide population, but that's the situation we're presented with). It's also a narratively fitting echo that his attempts at teaching would go as badly or worse than Kenobi's. The half-trained student of a failed teacher (and son of the failed student) isn't going to be much of one, especially in the more esoteric and philosophical areas which seemed so important to the Jedi Order, which he has no reason at all to know or understand.
Did not enjoy it. Kylo Ren is just... impenetrable as a bad guy. I cannot understand his motivations.
I didn't see the movie yet, but from the first one I think that Ren's lack of clear consistent motivation is intentionnal. He's a tween. A selfish, selfimportant, power hungry tween who as yet to find his true place in this world. He wants to be adored and admired because he sees himself as a wonder of the world, but at the same time he struggles to deal with that pressure. He wants to emulate his grand-father, but he falls short on pretty much every account (which hurt is self-estime). Basically, he's a highly functionnal mild sociopath with a complex of superiority that's associated with a complex of inferiority. he's a "try hard" and fundamentally selfish person. That's why he's no longer a Jedi, he's too self centered, why he goes berzerk once in a while and sometime feels like a little bitch at other times. In that regard he is pretty much the opposite of Darth Vader, but rather similar to Anakin before his fall. The main theme of hte current trilogy seems to be on finding one's place in the world and learning how to live with oneself. I guess that the best way to understand Ren, you must channel your inner angsty teen. I personaly think that they managed to pull a better version of this archetype with Ren than with Anakin in the prequels. While I am not a huge fan of this type of villain as they lack menace, I think it's wise they chose this route. If they had not, the new villain would have been really not much more than a lesser version of Darth Vader whose imprint on Star Wars and pop culture in general is so large that it's pretty much impossible to top it. Where they missed their shot is that a stone cold villain black knight" could have been added in the form of an underling, which would have been Phasma in Episode VII, but they completly dropped the ball on that point. Of course, considering the opinion of most people on this board, my expectation of seeing the new trilogy gaining some steam are pretty low.
First, Romanian cinema culture apparently doesn't put much stock in things like turning your cell phone off, not holding loud conversations, and generally not being rude to everyone around you.
Secondly, my god I haven't been as disappointed by a Star Wars film since 2002.
No, in TFA we had the mystery of Kylo. Now he just seems even more of a brat then Anakin did.
He is the character that makes the least bit of sense to me at this point, asides maybe from General Hux, who seems so utterly incompetent that I can't help but wonder why he's anything but a garbage chute cleaner.
Read through a couple of pages to make sure we're doing spoilers without tags, so, ok, cool.
So, I got back a minute ago from seeing it.
That movie held my undivided attention for roughly 135 minutes solid. Endlessly entertaining, inventive and gorgeous set pieces - certainly not The Empire Strikes Back Again to TFA's A New Hope 2: Hope Harder - with some simply fantastic performances. Wonderful stuff. Couldn't've asked for anything more.
And then they took my favourite Star Wars character and gave him a death second only in worthlessness to Padme "She's lost the will to live!" Amidala.
The Infinity War trailer that played before the movie started was better.
Feth this movie.
Tamereth wrote: Wow totally don't understand the hate for this film.
My fav SW character is Luke, so I understand it completely.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Read through a couple of pages to make sure we're doing spoilers without tags, so, ok, cool.
So, I got back a minute ago from seeing it.
That movie held my undivided attention for roughly 135 minutes solid. Endlessly entertaining, inventive and gorgeous set pieces - certainly not The Empire Strikes Back Again to TFA's A New Hope 2: Hope Harder - with some simply fantastic performances. Wonderful stuff. Couldn't've asked for anything more.
And then they took my favourite Star Wars character and gave him a death second only in worthlessness to Padme "She's lost the will to live!" Amidala.
The Infinity War trailer that played before the movie started was better.
Feth this movie.
Tamereth wrote: Wow totally don't understand the hate for this film.
My fav SW character is Luke, so I understand it completely.
In regards to Luke... I think that was a throwback to some the EU stuff. There had been instances where Jedi had given themselves so completely to the force, in order to perform incredibly amazing feats, that they died, and were absorbed by the force, as Luke was here. Projecting himself across the galaxy in such a manner, I could see it. Now, whether I thought it was "worth it" is another question.
I didn't mind Lukes death. He saw that his sister was in danger, and the Resistance was about to be wiped out. He gave himself over to the Force to do something incredibly powerful which saved them, and at the same time had a bit of satisfaction tricking his betrayer as well as robbing him of the satisfaction of killing him himself.
I look forward to crotchety force ghost Luke guiding Rey.
RiTides wrote: There were some cheers at points from the audience I saw it with, and I thought that was awesome
Loved Chewbacca's little "sidekicks". And I'm liking the overall story arc the more I think about it.
Do we know if Carrie Fisher finished filming of the third movie? The dedication to her at the end was great... kind of cool to see her passing on leadership of the rebellion in the movie somewhat subtly, too.
Her family have agreed to facial mapping, so Leia will return, at least in some capacity.
I know people fret about uncanny valley, but that technology is improving all the time. At the moment, I feel it suits older faces better than youthful ones. Compare the ‘kinda weirded our’ levels between Tarkin and Leia In Rogue One. It felt like the technology used just couldn’t quite do smooth skin, but had an easier time convincing with Tarkin’s ‘very much lived in’ skin,
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-Loki- wrote: I didn't mind Lukes death. He saw that his sister was in danger, and the Resistance was about to be wiped out. He gave himself over to the Force to do something incredibly powerful which saved them, and at the same time had a bit of satisfaction tricking his betrayer as well as robbing him of the satisfaction of killing him himself.
I look forward to crotchety force ghost Luke guiding Rey.
Pretty much this.
What I’m most excited about is that I can’t really predict how Episode IX is going to go. The Resistance is all but gone, just the handful left on the Falcon at the end, seemingly abandoned by their would-be allies in the Outer Rim.
Could we be looking at a more significant time jump? Perhaps a number of years, as Rey and Leia try to rally forces to their cause?
With Space Saville ded, and a couple of significant blows against the First Order (Super Ship and a Dreadnought), they’ve shown that the First Order can be defied.
Also Yoda showed force ghosts can interact physically. Luke could still contribute to physically beating Ben. I think they ghosted him to give his character a farewell in case Hamill dies before they were done with XI.
Tamereth wrote: Ray's parents being nobodies is a good thing.
Everybody wants to be a Jedi, but then we find out lukes only going to be one because his father was. Then we find out his father is darth Vader, then we find out his father was an immaculate conception of the force.
Now we're back to anybody can be force sensitive, you don't have to be a bloody godly skywalker.
I'm not saying the film is flawless by any means. Leia's Superman impression in space wasn't done well. And finn's story does feel a bit bloaty. Like they wrote the first draft then realized they needed something for him to do other than be in a coma.
I also would have liked a bit of background for snoke, but is it really needed. He's an evil powerful sith lord. End of.
Seconded (thirded?) on Rey. One thing which I disliked in previous Star Wars trilogies is how inbred the universe became. It started with Darth Vader being revealed as Luke's father - ooh! - followed with Leia and Luke being sisters - okay? - and was downhill from there. Now we have a main character who is not related to Skywalkers in any way, didn't fight alongside Yoda in Clone Wars or wasn't cloned from Boba Fett. This is what I was hoping for and was groaning at all other possibilities.
Is Snoke really Sith Lord? They haven't been explicit about it.
Tamereth wrote: Wow totally don't understand the hate for this film. It was awesome.
People seem to forgot that the original trilogy is pretty light hearted, c3po and r2-d2 are comic relief most of the time.
"lighthearted" does not mean "badly build".
Also, the originals have light-hearted moments but the mood of the single scenes is appropriate. Luke does not start to quip after he sees his uncle charred body.
In TFA, Poe says the "who talks first?" line on the scene of a massacre. The tone is completely off.
Also, in a typical J.J. and Marvel style, this kind of lines are very self-aware and meta. If these are family movies, they should focus on keep the kids within the movie, and not wink to older people almost to say "still fan of an old space opera, what a nerd AMRITE?".
They look clever but they are horrible. They break an illusion. And I reiterate this - these are "meta" movies. The target is not kids, the target is the older audience. If you target something to kids, you don't make the movie self-aware that is a movie. Is horribly cynical.
I agree that scene was cringe-worthy. I think it is Whedon's fault, he began the trend of light-hearted quipping on seemingly awful situations, and now it is out of control. It bothered me in latest Thor as well, though it was a decent movie otherwise.
However otherwise, I liked how Dameron was written in the movie. It was made explicitly clear that his hot-headedness is not necessarily always a positive asset.
Indeed. We see Poe and Finn both grow through failure of their usual approach.
Particularly Poe, given the barely salvaged disaster that was the attack on the The Dreadnought. Yes he ultimately saved the hour, but at a high cost. Later, he’s so blinded by Soloesque heroics, he doesn’t even stop to consider there’s another plan playing out.
I wonder if they kept the plan hush hush for fear it was a spy in their midst doing the tracking?
Also, have gathered my thoughts on the ‘tracking through hyperspace’ thing. Particularly in the canonical ‘Tarkin’ novel, they couldn’t track through hyperspace. Instead, they could track you once you’d come out of hyperspace.
This explains why the Deathstar took a while to arrive in orbit of Yavin - they couldn’t actively track the Falcon whilst in transit, only where it eventually ended up. And that’s what we see in all other examples, barring Obi-Wan tracking Jango Fett. But even then that could be explained by a much shorter jump, with a faster ship, and of course Jedi know-wots.
Why not have another fleet close the jaws on the Resistance? Arrogance. They knew they weren’t going anywhere any time soon, and Hux was taking pleasure in just chipping away at them, increasing their desperation. The bad guys are powerful, but nobody ever said they were smart
At a ridiculously low cost, you mean. A handful of bombers, for a multi-kilometer-long space battleship? Hell yes you make that trade, every time. Poe was 100% correct in his actions, the resistance leadership is a bunch of idiots for not repeating it (or being unable to, because they built a big capital ship instead of a few thousand more bombers). But apparently we're supposed to be so sad over the tragic loss of the brave soldiers that we accept a military force that is paralyzed by fear of losses and worthless in a fight.
(It does, of course, raise the question of why anyone bothers with capital ships at all, if a single bomber breaking through the fighter screen is instant death.)
The bad guys are powerful, but nobody ever said they were smart
And that's a problem. When your plot only succeeds because your villains are hopeless idiots (raising the question of how they managed to assemble a new empire in the first place) it's a sign of a very weak story and it makes the opposition into a joke. If they're all incompetent they can only succeed when the plot requires it, and there's no doubt that the heroes will overcome them once the plot determines that it is time to do so. There's no sense of threat, only clumsy idiots stumbling around until they've had enough screen time and the movie proceeds to the victory party.
Now, they don't have to be portrayed as legendary geniuses of military strategy, but there needs to be at least basic competence. And "hey, let's send another ship at them" is basic competence.
djones520 wrote: First, Romanian cinema culture apparently doesn't put much stock in things like turning your cell phone off, not holding loud conversations, and generally not being rude to everyone around you.
The only thing I really hated about the movie was that Hux was a cartoon villain almost throughout the entire movie. Especially at the start, where he starts to go on a rant about how the resistance is doomed, only to get blown off by Poe. It seemed like the Dreadnought commander should have been the one to be in command of the fleet rather than Hux.
Of course, this begs the question as to why in the hell they shot the base first rather than the Cruiser, but...
The only reason I could see them not wanting to blow all of their bomber pilots was the fact it was all the skilled not-Ywing pilots they had. Sure, they could buy a thousand more Ywings, but if they don't have any skilled people to man them...
My friend didn't like how Snoke died, but it was pretty much the same level as Palpatine getting thrown down a shaft. Kylo Ren showed him what he wanted to see, and Snoke, in his own arrogance, got rekt. I felt it was fitting to what they had shown so far. They seem to have wanted Ben Solo to be like his old character from the EU (where he took over the Republic) and that was the perfect chance to do it.
So did they actually kill off Phasma, or? She managed to survive a drop down a garbage chute, and everyone else seemed to live through Home One #2 blasting through them.
The only thing they haven't really explained is how Rey is/was capable of using the force without any training. Unless it's all something innate when she needs it, sort of like how Leia could superman through space.
At a ridiculously low cost, you mean. A handful of bombers, for a multi-kilometer-long space battleship? Hell yes you make that trade, every time. Poe was 100% correct in his actions, the resistance leadership is a bunch of idiots for not repeating it (or being unable to, because they built a big capital ship instead of a few thousand more bombers). But apparently we're supposed to be so sad over the tragic loss of the brave soldiers that we accept a military force that is paralyzed by fear of losses and worthless in a fight.
It was (sort of) shown in the TFA that the majority of the fleet was destroyed when the First Order used the super duper Star Destroyer and wiped out the Republic and made clearer in the novelization. Poe traded all of their bombers and some fighters for one ship but that wasn't the only Dreadnought, or at the very least they had more capitol ships, but Resistance doesn't have any more bombers or a way to replace them at this point. The Resistance doesn't have unlimited resources and is specifically said to be in a bad spot at that point. It was a Pyrrhic victory; he won the battle but lost the war, so to speak.
Are people actually complaining that a Star Wars movie contains a scene where an ace pilot uses a starfighter to destroy a much larger and more powerful ship?
It's a fine setup. Poe waves the white flag to get close, then stalls long enough to charge the booster on the back of his ship. Still a bad plan but Poe is the best so he's good enough to shoot the anti-air guns to create a blind spot for the bombers to get in. And yes, without anti-air guns, a battleship can be sunk/crippled by a bomber. Probably not quite so definitively, but whatever, it happens.
As for whether its "worth it"; are people treating this like some kind of wargame with equal points? Taking a 1000 point Dreadnought out by losing 200 points of bombers is a good trade, but if the Dreadnought is part of a 50,000 point army and you're only sporting 2000... less good. Banking on Rey making an assassination run on the Emperor was the better plan.
I really enjoyed the movie, but I have one big nit-pick that is really silly, but here goes:
Why does Luke use the blue lightsaber for his projection? There are several reasons it makes way more sense to use the green one.
1) He has used the green one way longer, like around 20 yrs compared to the 3ish yrs he used Anakins before losing it, so while I really like that Luke projected himself slightly younger as he would perceive himself (think Neo's self image in the Matrix) he probably would image himself with the RotJ green lightsaber.
2) According to the RotJ novelation, when Luke built his green lightsaber, he felt like it was more his that the blue on ever was. So like the wands in Harry Potter, lightsabers are connected to their users, and as I would imagine this would translate into self image, he should have had the green one.
3) Kylo would have been more familiar with Luke having the green lightsaber. Also, but Luke might not have known this, the blue lightsaber was split in half by this point. Kylo should have questioned this, although I can see how his anger wold have blinded him to small details.
Otherwise, I think it was a very satisfying movie and I am glad we at least got to see the green lightsaber in a flashback as it has always been my favorite. Let's hope Rey rebuilds he own light-staff for Ep 9
Given that the green saber created Kylo Ren, it was probably best he went with blue. What I wasn't 100% certain of was whether the saber he had at the end was Anakin's blue saber or Ben Solo's.
Also, if Kylo should have noticed anything, it was that Luke's feet weren't disturbing the salt.
LunarSol wrote: Also, if Kylo should have noticed anything, it was that Luke's feet weren't disturbing the salt.
Damn I was going to say that. It should have also been a bit off to the audience when he showed up looking like he did in the flashbacks and not as he did in present day but (outside the audience) the only one that knew what Luke currently looked like was Rey. I suppose Kylo should have been a bit suspicious when his old mentor looked like zero time had passed in the decade or so since the betrayal.
Visuals are awesome, especially the light speed crash,
This scene was ruined for me by the mass of people in the theatre clapping and whooping and talking/exclaiming loudly as it happened, sucking all the cool factor out of it and the intentionally muted audio of the immediate aftermath.
In fact, the audience and people clapping and doing dumb crap like that when main characters and whatnot showed up ruined a lot of it
Not saying it doesn't happen but it's pretty rare to get a theatre that rowdy. The only time my theatre made an uproar was when luke came out of the smoke after being blasted at for 30 seconds. Though luck man.
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Galef wrote: I really enjoyed the movie, but I have one big nit-pick that is really silly, but here goes:
Why does Luke use the blue lightsaber for his projection?
There are several reasons it makes way more sense to use the green one.
1) He has used the green one way longer, like around 20 yrs compared to the 3ish yrs he used Anakins before losing it, so while I really like that Luke projected himself slightly younger as he would perceive himself (think Neo's self image in the Matrix) he probably would image himself with the RotJ green lightsaber.
2) According to the RotJ novelation, when Luke built his green lightsaber, he felt like it was more his that the blue on ever was. So like the wands in Harry Potter, lightsabers are connected to their users, and as I would imagine this would translate into self image, he should have had the green one.
3) Kylo would have been more familiar with Luke having the green lightsaber. Also, but Luke might not have known this, the blue lightsaber was split in half by this point. Kylo should have questioned this, although I can see how his anger wold have blinded him to small details.
Otherwise, I think it was a very satisfying movie and I am glad we at least got to see the green lightsaber in a flashback as it has always been my favorite.
Let's hope Rey rebuilds he own light-staff for Ep 9
-
That is a pretty small nitpick. Mine are much bigger. The light sabre could have been a replacement - they must run out of juice sometime right? The green one I agree would have been iconic. However, maybe this was the first time luke attempted this trick - could just be a detail he forgot to address and just imaged the last sabre he saw used. Which was when he saw Rey practicing with a blue sabre.
I think this is the best sw movie. Better then empire. Better action. Better story. I think its exactly what the whole franchise needed. A clean break from everything that came before it.
Spoiler:
Who is snoak? Doesnt matter hes dead.
Who are rays parents? Doesnt matter their nobody. Their dead. Move forward.
What about the skywalker lineage? Doesnt matter. Its done. Other people exist in the universe who are important without having to be in proximity of a skywalker. Move forward.
It feels like were free of episode 1-6 now. A burden is gone and they can just move forward.
Lance845 wrote: I think this is the best sw movie. Better then empire. Better action. Better story. I think its exactly what the whole franchise needed. A clean break from everything that came before it.
Spoiler:
Who is snoak? Doesnt matter hes dead.
Who are rays parents? Doesnt matter their nobody. Their dead. Move forward.
What about the skywalker lineage? Doesnt matter. Its done. Other people exist in the universe who are important without having to be in proximity of a skywalker. Move forward.
It feels like were free of episode 1-6 now. A burden is gone and they can just move forward.
Except... none of those except arguably #3 were from episodes 1-6, and there wasn't any reason to take up the burden of #3 in the first place. All of the problems you're talking about were explicitly created by the two new movies to... be ignored and discarded by the two new movies.
I can only assume with this logic that 'Episode 9' will dispose of Kylo (a skywalker), Rey (trained(ish) by a skywalker) and Finn (because... whatever, apparently?) entirely so the next new trilogy can carry on without any burdens from this trilogy.
Lance845 wrote: I think this is the best sw movie. Better then empire. Better action. Better story. I think its exactly what the whole franchise needed. A clean break from everything that came before it.
Spoiler:
Who is snoak? Doesnt matter hes dead.
Who are rays parents? Doesnt matter their nobody. Their dead. Move forward.
What about the skywalker lineage? Doesnt matter. Its done. Other people exist in the universe who are important without having to be in proximity of a skywalker. Move forward.
It feels like were free of episode 1-6 now. A burden is gone and they can just move forward.
If that's what you wanted to do. Call it a new star-wars saga then. No reason to call it episode 7-8-9.
Voss wrote: Except... none of those except arguably #3 were from episodes 1-6, and there wasn't any reason to take up the burden of #3 in the first place. All of the problems you're talking about were explicitly created by the two new movies to... be ignored and discarded by the two new movies. I can only assume with this logic that 'Episode 9' will dispose of Kylo (a skywalker), Rey (trained(ish) by a skywalker) and Finn (because... whatever, apparently?) entirely so the next new trilogy can carry on without any burdens from this trilogy.
Who snoak is was on everyones mind. They were plumbing through the past looking for who he could be. Was he plaguis? Was he this guy that guy? They answered it in the best way.
Whos rays parents were was the same. Was she lukes kid? Kenobis grandkid? Again, the best answer. A clean break.
The last scene of the movie sums it all up.
Spoiler:
anyone can be a hero. Even some back world kid who wasn't born of the force and some destiny
Xenomancers wrote: If that's what you wanted to do. Call it a new star-wars saga then. No reason to call it episode 7-8-9.
Because starwars is based on old Flash Gordan serials that played before old movies. They were all episodic in a way where you didn't really need to know the rest of what was going on. It's why the original starwars (4) opened the way it did in the middle of everything already going on. (also it wasn't originally called episode 4 a new hope. It was just called star wars) Just because 7 8 9 10 11 12 don't have to tie directly to 1-6 doesn't mean they are not new chapters within the world. Hell, it's why they are called episodes like no other film series.
Voss wrote:
Except... none of those except arguably #3 were from episodes 1-6, and there wasn't any reason to take up the burden of #3 in the first place. All of the problems you're talking about were explicitly created by the two new movies to... be ignored and discarded by the two new movies.
I can only assume with this logic that 'Episode 9' will dispose of Kylo (a skywalker), Rey (trained(ish) by a skywalker) and Finn (because... whatever, apparently?) entirely so the next new trilogy can carry on without any burdens from this trilogy.
Who snoak is was on everyones mind. They were plumbing through the past looking for who he could be. Was he plaguis? Was he this guy that guy? They answered it in the best way.
'He was nobody and it doesn't matter?'
Whos rays parents were was the same. Was she lukes kid? Kenobis grandkid? Again, the best answer. A clean break.
'They were nobody and it doesn't matter?'
But, anyway, that doesn't actually address my point. While you can certainly put up a strawman about how 'everyone' was looking for answers in the old stuff, back in reality, my expectation was that the new films would actually flesh themselves out at some point- actually do the work and give the characters some background and details that justify creating the characters in the first place. There was no 'burden' of the original movies for Snoke. Just a failure of the new movies to do anything with him. Similarly, Rey needs some explanation for her Mary Sue powers, Skywalker or not. Given the new films introduced her and make her entirely self-contained, the burden is on them to do something narratively satisfying with her, not blame the old films for existing and just refuse to engage.
The last scene of the movie sums it all up.
Spoiler:
anyone can be a hero. Even some back world kid who wasn't born of the force and some destiny
Hmmm. That is distinctly not the impression I've gotten.
Just because 7 8 9 10 11 12 don't have to tie directly to 1-6 doesn't mean they are not new chapters within the world.
Wait, here's the problem: 7 & 8 do 'tie directly' to 1-6. This isn't a theoretical situation- these movies are done. 7 is both a rehash and completely about the old cast and some perfunctory torch-passing to a new generation- the major arc of the story is 'find the Skywalker'. You've mentioned not needing 'proximity to a Skywalker' but the parts of 8 that don't end in pointless failure are riddled with Skywalkers. Go study with a Skywalker, God-King Astral Projection Skywalker, Grandson Heir to the Dark Side Skywalker, Soaring through Space Skywalker (only we don't call her that). Without the ties to 1-6, there is essentially no content to 7 and 8. Just a broody mutant yelling at an incompetent kid (Hux, because Ren wouldn't be there on account of being a Skywalker) cosplaying as an Imperial Admiral, blowing up the new republic capital for the lulz. The 'burden' you're so eager to cast off is in fact the story content for the new films.
Ahtman wrote: It was (sort of) shown in the TFA that the majority of the fleet was destroyed when the First Order used the super duper Star Destroyer and wiped out the Republic and made clearer in the novelization. Poe traded all of their bombers and some fighters for one ship but that wasn't the only Dreadnought, or at the very least they had more capitol ships, but Resistance doesn't have any more bombers or a way to replace them at this point. The Resistance doesn't have unlimited resources and is specifically said to be in a bad spot at that point. It was a Pyrrhic victory; he won the battle but lost the war, so to speak.
That's a massive failure of scale. The Republic fleet would have been spread out through the galaxy (after all, they have pirates to deal with, defensive positions to maintain, etc) and even if half the fleet was destroyed in orbit over the capital that still leaves thousands, probably millions, of ships. It's like having a movie open with sinking a US aircraft carrier, followed by the next scene being a single squad of infantry taking the capital and forcing the US to surrender with the justification being "the US military was destroyed". It would be a meaningful loss, but not enough to get to the point where there's nothing left.
Likewise, why does the resistance only have a few bombers? For them to be even remotely relevant on the galactic scale they'd have to have a much larger fleet: hundreds of capital ships, thousands of bombers, etc. If the resistance is genuinely limited to a handful of bombers then why does the First Order even care about them? It's like if the US military was obsessing over the fact that a terrorist bolted a machine gun to a truck, and sending their entire force of tanks to destroy it. Those few bombers aren't going to accomplish anything even if the first order simply ignores them entirely, especially if the resistance leadership is so terrified of losing them that they won't commit them to a fight.
LunarSol wrote: Are people actually complaining that a Star Wars movie contains a scene where an ace pilot uses a starfighter to destroy a much larger and more powerful ship?
It's a fine setup. Poe waves the white flag to get close, then stalls long enough to charge the booster on the back of his ship. Still a bad plan but Poe is the best so he's good enough to shoot the anti-air guns to create a blind spot for the bombers to get in. And yes, without anti-air guns, a battleship can be sunk/crippled by a bomber. Probably not quite so definitively, but whatever, it happens.
As for whether its "worth it"; are people treating this like some kind of wargame with equal points? Taking a 1000 point Dreadnought out by losing 200 points of bombers is a good trade, but if the Dreadnought is part of a 50,000 point army and you're only sporting 2000... less good. Banking on Rey making an assassination run on the Emperor was the better plan.
Idea is good but did resistance literally have NOT EVEN ONE MORE x-wing left? Seriously odds of lone x-wing being able to take down all the guns should be ridiculously small(before big ships weren't as useless against fighters but guess the empire gunners have forgotten how to shoot) so if you are trying makes sense to use you know...bit more than lone fighter who like 99.99% cases would just get blown out of sky not accomplishing anything and when your whole escape plan relies on blowing those guns allowing transports to escape that's risky proposition.
First I want to say Voss has been spot on in assessment and argument so far in this thread. Kudos to you.
The Resistence is a threat not because of their ships or weapons. Those could very well be inferior in numbers and capability. They said it several times in the movie, The Resistence is a threat because they are the spark that will light the fire that destroys the first order. Their existence gives the oppressed in the galaxy hope and that hope can build up to topple the more powerful First Order.
At the end of the movie the slave kids were reinacting Luke’s stand-off with the At-At’s. The Legend returned to inspire a new generation. His job is done.
In a word, incredible. In two words, flipping incredible. From the opening crawl to the end credits, I was enthralled. Cast were amazing, visuals were stunning, script rattled along and the story was gripping. Maybe not enough to topple ANH as my favourite, but definitely the most a SW film has affected me on a first watch, I was genuinely speechless by the end.
Spoilery McSpoilers
Spoiler:
This was Hamill's movie through and through. Both his performance and the direction Luke was taken in over the course of the film was terrific, and Hamill sells the Broken Old Hermit Luke with such a weight to him that when the climax comes and he reemerges as Legendary Hero Luke it's a real punch the air moment. To switch on a dime from such a shattered and depleted character to one that steps up exuding so much confidence and strength that he can stare down an entire army is truly remarkable. Not to detract from anyone else as the rest were all top notch as well (Fisher and Driver especially) but Hamill stole every scene he was in.
And speaking of Luke... that ending. Epic, heartbreaking, and a truly special moment. Unlike Han's demise, which only evoked despair, Luke's is somehow 'right'. He finds redemption, he finds peace, and he goes out the only way he was ever going to, laying down his life that his friends might go on... Oh, and being a total badass while he did it. Again, a lot of that is down to the sheer intensity of Hamill's performance, quite a few lines in those final few scenes gave me chills.
Returning characters were all good. Leia was fantastic as ever, Poe excelled himself and managed to avoid becoming a caricature, Finn was great and Rey and Kylo were the standouts once again, especially in their scenes together. New ones were largely very good as well, I especially like Rose and feel she fits right in as the through-and-through idealist representative of the joyful innocence that has always been at the heart of Star Wars.
I could go on all day about the scenes and moments I loved, but for the sake of time I'll stick to just a few...
The main thing I thought was amazing was the three versions of Ben Solo's fall we saw. Very clever to show the exact same scene from three perspectives and convincingly altering the meaning with each one, that's a hard trick to pull off but they managed it. And it totally makes both Luke's exile and Kylo's turn understandable, Luke didn't shut himself away because he was just blaming himself, it was genuinely his fault that everything he'd built came crumbling down.
Also Luke's lessons to Rey. The idea that the Jedi of old were full of hubris and arrogance, and the Force did not belong to them (or anyone) is a long-overdue one that it's nice to see acknowledged. I enjoyed that he had some fun with it as well, with the 'reach out' and 'not about lifting rocks' stuff.
YODA! I was really, really hoping we might see one or more Ghosts in the background of a shot or a minor cameo, but to actually have Yoda feature in a fairly major role was more than I dared hope. Truly glorious, and even moreso that they used the puppet rather than CGI.
The whole Throne Room sequence. From Rey's confrontation with Snoke to the epic duel with Rey, Ren and the Royal Guard (were they the Knights or Ren, or have we still not seen them?). Serkis was great, and while Kylo killing him was kind of telegraphed, his ultimate failure to resist the lure of power was very well done, and a nice reaffirmation of the Rule of Two/way of the Sith. The Apprentice kills the Master, and in doing so is destined to take his place. I dared to hope he could be redeemed, now I can't wait to see how far he'll fall (I don't think there's any going back for him now).
Only bit I didn't really like was the casino scenes and subsequent chase, that could have been cut down a little. And swearing in Star Wars was fine, but really a little unnecessary. .
Other than that, top stuff. Probably in at number 3 on my list after ANH and Rogue One, though I'll need to see it again to be sure... probably multiple times...
Yeah, it was a cracker. I have complete faith in Rian Johnson's trilogy after seeing this, and can't wait to see where episode IX is taking us...
Ahtman wrote: It was (sort of) shown in the TFA that the majority of the fleet was destroyed when the First Order used the super duper Star Destroyer and wiped out the Republic and made clearer in the novelization. Poe traded all of their bombers and some fighters for one ship but that wasn't the only Dreadnought, or at the very least they had more capitol ships, but Resistance doesn't have any more bombers or a way to replace them at this point. The Resistance doesn't have unlimited resources and is specifically said to be in a bad spot at that point. It was a Pyrrhic victory; he won the battle but lost the war, so to speak.
That's a massive failure of scale. The Republic fleet would have been spread out through the galaxy (after all, they have pirates to deal with, defensive positions to maintain, etc) and even if half the fleet was destroyed in orbit over the capital that still leaves thousands, probably millions, of ships. It's like having a movie open with sinking a US aircraft carrier, followed by the next scene being a single squad of infantry taking the capital and forcing the US to surrender with the justification being "the US military was destroyed". It would be a meaningful loss, but not enough to get to the point where there's nothing left.
Likewise, why does the resistance only have a few bombers? For them to be even remotely relevant on the galactic scale they'd have to have a much larger fleet: hundreds of capital ships, thousands of bombers, etc. If the resistance is genuinely limited to a handful of bombers then why does the First Order even care about them? It's like if the US military was obsessing over the fact that a terrorist bolted a machine gun to a truck, and sending their entire force of tanks to destroy it. Those few bombers aren't going to accomplish anything even if the first order simply ignores them entirely, especially if the resistance leadership is so terrified of losing them that they won't commit them to a fight.
Pretty much this. These movies give you no idea about scale and even mislead you about the scale. If the resistance is crushed if these 4 ships and 400 rebels are destroyed - we are wasting our time caring about them because they never had a chance. It's really just a terrible story.
Just had a thought too - if you have a fleet trapped and they can't hyper space away because you will just follow them...why don't you force the issue and hyperspace a few ships in front of them and then they are totally doomed. This is essentially a plot hole that should never make it's way into a big budget movie and I can't believe I didn't think about it sooner.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Because until they enter Hypserspace you don’t know where they’re going?
I'm talking about the normal engine escape where they were (staying out of range of the big guns) just jump a few star destroyers ahead of them and crush them.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Arrogance and overconfidence. When you’re sure they’ve nowhere to run and you’ve got a point to make, why not draw it out?
Because they are wasting fuel and ammunition they don't have to? They could be out continuing conquering the galaxy? Plus - they are rebels - they even tried a plan to escape that almost worked...why risk that? Like...your point is really weak - just admit you liked the movie because you got to get excited about starwars again. How can you defend that plothole?
Xenomancers wrote: Just had a thought too - if you have a fleet trapped and they can't hyper space away because you will just follow them...why don't you force the issue and hyperspace a few ships in front of them and then they are totally doomed. This is essentially a plot hole that should never make it's way into a big budget movie and I can't believe I didn't think about it sooner.
We've never gotten a good idea of what a minimum jump distance is. Likely a small jump still puts them way ahead of where the MonCal would run out of fuel given the speed of light and all. Even if you were off a bit in your direction of travel you'd be hundreds of miles away at the end.
Saw it today. The plot of the movie was just as bland and shallow as TFA, which I guess I should have expected.
But it was a glorious visual spectacle, and that Reylo fight in the Throne Room was incredible. Those Praetorian Guards were fantastic. I hope we see the Knights of Ren again for similar duels in Ep9.
Definitely up there as one of my favourite Light-sabre duels of all time, second only to Luke/Vader in ROTJ.
My biggest disappointment is how much of a let down Snoke was...I thought he was going to be some big uber bad guy Ancient Sith, Disney's version of Darth Vitiate (a Sith so powerful he consumed entire worlds of life). Disney certainly hyped him up way too much. I was hoping that Rey would actually join Kylo Ren, and that Kylo's fall to the dark side was a long-con plan to take down the single biggest threat to all life in the Galaxy (much like Darth Revan fell to the dark side trying to defeat Darth Vitiate).
And WTF ever happened to the Grey Jedi angle that Disney was foreshadowing with the Bendu in SW Rebels, and the Guardians of the Whills prophecies.
Idea is good but did resistance literally have NOT EVEN ONE MORE x-wing left? Seriously odds of lone x-wing being able to take down all the guns should be ridiculously small(before big ships weren't as useless against fighters but guess the empire gunners have forgotten how to shoot) so if you are trying makes sense to use you know...bit more than lone fighter who like 99.99% cases would just get blown out of sky not accomplishing anything and when your whole escape plan relies on blowing those guns allowing transports to escape that's risky proposition.
Send one more X-Wing and its not a white flag envoy. The odds of a ship taking down all the guns is ridiculously small, but that's why Poe is the best pilot they've got and even he required a non-standard booster on his ship to do it.
Killing dreadnought wasn't required to escape; just an additional objective Poe believed they could accomplish along the way. That's why Leia was upset that Poe didn't choose to run and fight another day. He believed he could get the job done (and he could) but he didn't appreciate the consequences. The bombers were there because it was his mission. He was the commander and he only really succeeded by sending waves and waves of his own men until the TIEs hit their preset kill limit and let one through.
Xenomancers wrote: Just had a thought too - if you have a fleet trapped and they can't hyper space away because you will just follow them...why don't you force the issue and hyperspace a few ships in front of them and then they are totally doomed. This is essentially a plot hole that should never make it's way into a big budget movie and I can't believe I didn't think about it sooner.
We've never gotten a good idea of what a minimum jump distance is. Likely a small jump still puts them way ahead of where the MonCal would run out of fuel given the speed of light and all. Even if you were off a bit in your direction of travel you'd be hundreds of miles away at the end.
Then light speed out to minimum distance and then turn around and do it again...not to mention we know they are pretty accurate because when they were followed they came right up on them.
Lance845 wrote: I think this is the best sw movie. Better then empire. Better action. Better story. I think its exactly what the whole franchise needed. A clean break from everything that came before it.
Spoiler:
Who is snoak? Doesnt matter hes dead.
Who are rays parents? Doesnt matter their nobody. Their dead. Move forward.
What about the skywalker lineage? Doesnt matter. Its done. Other people exist in the universe who are important without having to be in proximity of a skywalker. Move forward.
It feels like were free of episode 1-6 now. A burden is gone and they can just move forward.
What about our ability to believe that the outcome of the next movie matters? Doesn't matter, they're dead.
What about our ability to believe in any solution that doesn't involve ramming a hyper drive through something? Doesn't matter, it's dead.
Xenomancers wrote: Just had a thought too - if you have a fleet trapped and they can't hyper space away because you will just follow them...why don't you force the issue and hyperspace a few ships in front of them and then they are totally doomed. This is essentially a plot hole that should never make it's way into a big budget movie and I can't believe I didn't think about it sooner.
We've never gotten a good idea of what a minimum jump distance is. Likely a small jump still puts them way ahead of where the MonCal would run out of fuel given the speed of light and all. Even if you were off a bit in your direction of travel you'd be hundreds of miles away at the end.
Then light speed out to minimum distance and then turn around and do it again...not to mention we know they are pretty accurate because when they were followed they came right up on them.
If my minimum jump distance is 500 and they're 5 in front of me and I jump, they're 495 behind me. If I jump back I still have a minimum distance of 500 so I just end up 5 behind them again. They mostly just gain ground during my turnaround time.
Peregrine wrote: The Republic fleet would have been spread out through the galaxy (after all, they have pirates to deal with, defensive positions to maintain, etc) and even if half the fleet was destroyed in orbit over the capital that still leaves thousands, probably millions, of ships.
That would be true if we didn't know it was all false. This discussion was had when TFA came out and while it was really only said in the novelization it was explicitly stated that the Republic fleet was in the system when the system was nuked by Super Death Star Plus. Was it silly then? Yes. Is it still silly? Also yes. Does it mean that they aren't treating it as true? No, they are treating it as canon. You're essentially doing the "In the real world we would never do something like that" but this ain't the real world and they did do something like that. It is also why the First Order was able to take over, as the opening crawl of this movie says, leaving just the Resistance to fight yet even they are on their last leg. It is also why the Resistance were trying to find allies in the Outer Rim as there was nothing in the core that could lend support.
Xenomancers wrote: Just had a thought too - if you have a fleet trapped and they can't hyper space away because you will just follow them...why don't you force the issue and hyperspace a few ships in front of them and then they are totally doomed. This is essentially a plot hole that should never make it's way into a big budget movie and I can't believe I didn't think about it sooner.
We've never gotten a good idea of what a minimum jump distance is. Likely a small jump still puts them way ahead of where the MonCal would run out of fuel given the speed of light and all. Even if you were off a bit in your direction of travel you'd be hundreds of miles away at the end.
Then light speed out to minimum distance and then turn around and do it again...not to mention we know they are pretty accurate because when they were followed they came right up on them.
If my minimum jump distance is 500 and they're 5 in front of me and I jump, they're 495 behind me. If I jump back I still have a minimum distance of 500 so I just end up 5 behind them again. They mostly just gain ground during my turnaround time.
You don't do it with all your ships. Lets assume the Home 2 is equal to the Star Destroyer knockoff. Simply jump 3 of your pizza slices in front. The Rebels now have a hard limit on how much they can scheme. The First Order outclassed the Resistance by a massive amount- 3 Slices still leave you with a lot of pizza to murder people with.
It really wasn't that long of a wait to take out the Resistance Fleet. In less than 12 hours they got it down to one capitol ship so their chutzpah on the issue probably seemed justified.
Ahtman wrote: It really wasn't that long of a wait to take out the Resistance Fleet. In less than 12 hours they got it down to one capitol ship so their chutzpah on the issue probably seemed justified.
Only because Vice Admiral SHILL THIS CHARACTER decided to fly the last ship through my willing suspension of disbelief.
Peregrine wrote: The Republic fleet would have been spread out through the galaxy (after all, they have pirates to deal with, defensive positions to maintain, etc) and even if half the fleet was destroyed in orbit over the capital that still leaves thousands, probably millions, of ships.
That would be true if we didn't know it was all false. This discussion was had when TFA came out and while it was really only said in the novelization it was explicitly stated that the Republic fleet was in the system when the system was nuked by Super Death Star Plus. Was it silly then? Yes. Is it still silly? Also yes. Does it mean that they aren't treating it as true? No, they are treating it as canon. You're essentially doing the "In the real world we would never do something like that" but this ain't the real world and they did do something like that. It is also why the First Order was able to take over, as the opening crawl of this movie says, leaving just the Resistance to fight yet even they are on their last leg. It is also why the Resistance were trying to find allies in the Outer Rim as there was nothing in the core that could lend support.
It's not just a question of 'in the real world.' It's a fundamental problem for the setting, and from what you say, the setup of the film. The text crawl, or even the premise of the film, doesn't override 'this is a moronic plothole that didn't need to be there,' and wouldn't have if someone had a handy copy of the evil overlord list:
"#12 One of my advisors will be an average five-year-old child. Any flaws in my plan that he is able to spot will be corrected before implementation."
Merely chasing down the Resisty's leadership is enough of a compelling reason to go through with things. With the government gone in a display of complete ignorance about how time and distance work (see TFA), the First Order would logically want to hunt down the Resistance leadership before they could link up with other Republic Fleets spread across the galaxy. Thus, the story of the film. Stupid winner-take-all plotholes magnifying the utter absurdity of TFA's impossible superweapon and light-year vision of apparently everyone in galaxy was a completely unnecessary flaw to introduce to TLJ.
I have a theory, as to why Kylo decided to become Supreme Leader...
Simply put, it is less that he believes in this dark side , and more a matter of Realpolitik. The First Order is the only power left standing. The resistance is down to maybe two dozen guys, with no resources. Luke is [spoilers], and the New Republic was nuked from orbit of a star six systems away. The First Order may honestly be the best option for avoiding Galactic Anarchy.
Of course, I think this post makes me overqualified to be a script writer for the sequel trilogy.
Lance845 wrote: I think this is the best sw movie. Better then empire. Better action. Better story. I think its exactly what the whole franchise needed. A clean break from everything that came before it.
Spoiler:
Who is snoak? Doesnt matter hes dead.
Who are rays parents? Doesnt matter their nobody. Their dead. Move forward.
What about the skywalker lineage? Doesnt matter. Its done. Other people exist in the universe who are important without having to be in proximity of a skywalker. Move forward.
It feels like were free of episode 1-6 now. A burden is gone and they can just move forward.
What about our ability to believe that the outcome of the next movie matters? Doesn't matter, they're dead.
What about our ability to believe in any solution that doesn't involve ramming a hyper drive through something? Doesn't matter, it's dead.
I think episode 9 will not end with kylo or rey dieing.
I think we are going to see both break away from the resistance/first order for one reason or another. I expect that both of them will found a new force user order that isn't all about the dark or the light and instead about the balance.
It will matter because episode 10 will likely be a time jump forward and follow future students of the new "grey jedi" order. Ridley has already said she isn't coming back for more movies after 9. I expect that is why.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Arrogance and overconfidence. When you’re sure they’ve nowhere to run and you’ve got a point to make, why not draw it out?
Because they are wasting fuel and ammunition they don't have to? They could be out continuing conquering the galaxy? Plus - they are rebels - they even tried a plan to escape that almost worked...why risk that? Like...your point is really weak - just admit you liked the movie because you got to get excited about starwars again. How can you defend that plothole?
My point isn’t really weak.
I was this excited for The Phantom Menace, yet beyond the duel of fates, that’s a massive steaming pile.
I enjoyed The Last Jedi because I enjoyed it.
Who is wasting fuel and ammo they don’t have? Not the First Order, unlike The Resistance, they’re well armed and equipped.
Go back and review Hux. The man is a arrogant brat. Snoke is clearly overconfident, as seen in his demise.
You not liking the plot or elements thereof don’t make them objectively bad. It just means it’s not to your taste.
Voss wrote: It's a fundamental problem for the setting, and from what you say, the setup of the film. The text crawl, or even the premise of the film, doesn't override 'this is a moronic plothole that didn't need to be there,
I never said it was smart, and in fact have implied the opposite, all I have stated was that it was what the films have decided to say on the subject. Also it isn't a plot hole it is just bad. A plot hole is an inconsistency within the diegesis but this isn't inconsistent it is just kind of a dumb approach.
Formosa wrote: this is one of the worst films I have ever seen :(
You must not watch a lot of movies then. Not liking it? Sure. Not everyone is going to like the same things and this film has enough issues that it isn't surprising. Worst you've ever seen? Makes me think you have only seen two or three movies your entire life. Hell even if you've seen any of the prequel films you've seen a film worse than this; this is problematic those were dumpster fires.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Arrogance and overconfidence. When you’re sure they’ve nowhere to run and you’ve got a point to make, why not draw it out?
Because they are wasting fuel and ammunition they don't have to? They could be out continuing conquering the galaxy? Plus - they are rebels - they even tried a plan to escape that almost worked...why risk that? Like...your point is really weak - just admit you liked the movie because you got to get excited about starwars again. How can you defend that plothole?
My point isn’t really weak.
I was this excited for The Phantom Menace, yet beyond the duel of fates, that’s a massive steaming pile.
I enjoyed The Last Jedi because I enjoyed it.
Who is wasting fuel and ammo they don’t have? Not the First Order, unlike The Resistance, they’re well armed and equipped.
Go back and review Hux. The man is a arrogant brat. Snoke is clearly overconfident, as seen in his demise.
You not liking the plot or elements thereof don’t make them objectively bad. It just means it’s not to your taste.
There is a difference between not liking the plot and there not being a plot. I loved phantom - it told a good story. It had a good plot. It had 1 bad character. These movies aren't even on the same level critically. They kill off the good characters by replacing them with bad ones - there is no plot - there is no back story. We are just watching a lot of ships blow up in spectacular fashion with some childish lessons about doing the right thing are being taught in the dialog.
Voss wrote: It's a fundamental problem for the setting, and from what you say, the setup of the film. The text crawl, or even the premise of the film, doesn't override 'this is a moronic plothole that didn't need to be there,
I never said it was smart, and in fact have implied the opposite, all I have stated was that it was what the films have decided to say on the subject. Also it isn't a plot hole it is just bad. A plot hole is an inconsistency within the diegesis but this isn't inconsistent it is just kind of a dumb approach.
Formosa wrote: this is one of the worst films I have ever seen :(
You must not watch a lot of movies then. Not liking it? Sure. Not everyone is going to like the same things and this film has enough issues that it isn't surprising. Worst you've ever seen? Makes me think you have only seen two or three movies your entire life. Hell even if you've seen any of the prequel films you've seen a film worse than this; this is problematic those were dumpster fires.
No I watch a lot of films, a hell of a lot of films, and the really bad films I have watched dont try to wrap themselves up as amazing blockbusters, they are bad and usually have a wink at it, this film, bad story, bad acting, terrible pacing, bad edits, cliche and very predictable story, terrible characters etc. etc.
Dare I say... even episode 2 and 3 were better than this, even episode 1 was slightly better than this terrible film.
So yes, this is the worst film I have ever seen....
While the prequels have issues, there's actually a lot of depth you can read from the background. Here, the entire plot for the trilogy hinges off of everyone basically choosing the worst decision that they can make, and making it.
I agree that scene was cringe-worthy. I think it is Whedon's fault, he began the trend of light-hearted quipping on seemingly awful situations, and now it is out of control. It bothered me in latest Thor as well, though it was a decent movie otherwise.
However otherwise, I liked how Dameron was written in the movie. It was made explicitly clear that his hot-headedness is not necessarily always a positive asset.
Whedon is poison. I hate that hypocrite. Is the definition of shallowness and hypocrisy, both in his agendas and in his work.
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Crazy_Carnifex wrote: While the prequels have issues, there's actually a lot of depth you can read from the background. Here, the entire plot for the trilogy hinges off of everyone basically choosing the worst decision that they can make, and making it.
TV-series writing. Is not "create the character, put them in the situation, see what thay would do".
Is "we need the epic twist to surprise the audience and push them to see more, so we create the situation, and we squeeze the characters on it - at the point of losing any characterization".
Ahtman wrote: It really wasn't that long of a wait to take out the Resistance Fleet. In less than 12 hours they got it down to one capitol ship so their chutzpah on the issue probably seemed justified.
Only because Vice Admiral SHILL THIS CHARACTER decided to fly the last ship through my willing suspension of disbelief.
That scene is beyond preposterous. And kinda kills the way war works in the universe.
When did fuel consumption become such an issue for ships in the Star Wars universe? If large ships have things akin to nuclear reactors or things even more advanced, why is fuel a concern? Modern nuclear reactors can go years or decades without refueling, fuel never seemed to be an issue for large vessels in previous films. That whole thing felt really hamfisted. The part with the First Order fighters having to be recalled for being out of range was also odd, why can't they operate beyond a few dozen kilometers from their home base ships? They're literally in quite short visual range of their home vessels before being recalled. Likewise, when the small rebel ship group is being chased, seemingly nothing but the gargantuan ship is firing, and only with its mega guns or whatever...everything else looks like it'd be within conventional modern cannon range...in space...why didn't they ever open fire?
They make a point of ties having short range in ANH just before they run into the death star. They comment how the tie can't be too far from its base. Then it makes a beeline for that small moon.
Also, star wars fights always happen in visual range..... For reasons.....
welshhoppo wrote: They make a point of ties having short range in ANH just before they run into the death star. They comment how the tie can't be too far from its base. Then it makes a beeline for that small moon.
Also, star wars fights always happen in visual range..... For reasons.....
Thing is, you could send in a wave of TIEs. They only need to actually make it to the target, first because they are TIE's, who cares if they die, and second, you are already flying to their position. Feel free to pick them up as you pass.
welshhoppo wrote: They make a point of ties having short range in ANH just before they run into the death star. They comment how the tie can't be too far from its base. Then it makes a beeline for that small moon.
Sure, but that was something big enough and far away enough to be mistaken for a celestial object, not a ships a fraction of the size that appear to be within modern conventional cannon range
(hell, almost close enough to be under the wingpspan of the Supremacy if it turned sideways )
Also, star wars fights always happen in visual range..... For reasons.....
Star Wars is a Space Opera not intended to be realistic. The space fights are more reminescent of a fight between naval vessels or WWII dogfighting. And that's completely fine.
The problem is that even if a universe is not realistic, does not mean it cannot be internally consistent. This thing of the fuel can be acceptable but is really stretching it. And all to lead to a conclusion, the "FTL Missile", that raises a lot of question on why FTL weaponry has not been used in-universe.
Also, I re-watched just to check the battle near Endor in RotJ. Lando and Akbar discuss quickly a change of strategy in a scene that suggests mutual trust and respect. Now think about what they did with Admiral Purplehair.
I do have nerdy issues and complaints with the various technology bits but I do realise they're "comic book guy-ey" and Star Wars is always space fantasy anyway...
But yeah, I'll just say, the various things didn't really endear me to the film, like suddenly... planet!
Yeah the EU books consistently pointed out that sublight engines used fuel faster than lightspeed. So running away in normal space make no sense until this planet appears (with no star nearby btw). And if lightspeed missiles are so good why not just have asteroids with engines on them to eliminate capitol ships Everytime they pop up?
With regards to the movie as a while I saw it yesterday and after sleeping on it I'll saw my opinion has not improved. The plot holes are big enough to swallow a death star.
Also, I re-watched just to check the battle near Endor in RotJ. Lando and Akbar discuss quickly a change of strategy in a scene that suggests mutual trust and respect.
Now think about what they did with Admiral Purplehair.
Imagine how much better the movie would have been if they had this quick conversation:
Poe: Why are we just running? We can't win
Purple: We are retreating to a rebel base where we can call for help
Poe: I have an alternative plan. It involves a small team, one shuttle, and may save our capital ships
Purple: Make it happen. The fleet will proceed to the base as planned in case you aren't successful.
Now it's not "pointless sub-plot", but "failed plan" and eliminates a lot of really bad decisions.
Kaiyanwang wrote: Star Wars is a Space Opera not intended to be realistic. The space fights are more reminescent of a fight between naval vessels or WWII dogfighting. And that's completely fine.
The problem is that even if a universe is not realistic, does not mean it cannot be internally consistent. This thing of the fuel can be acceptable but is really stretching it. And all to lead to a conclusion, the "FTL Missile", that raises a lot of question on why FTL weaponry has not been used in-universe.
Yeah, and if that were an option, I'm not sure why they wouldn't have tried that earlier, sending one of the smaller ships that simply got pasted to go do it...
No I watch a lot of films, a hell of a lot of films, and the really bad films I have watched dont try to wrap themselves up as amazing blockbusters, they are bad and usually have a wink at it, this film, bad story, bad acting, terrible pacing, bad edits, cliche and very predictable story, terrible characters etc. etc.
Dare I say... even episode 2 and 3 were better than this, even episode 1 was slightly better than this terrible film.
So yes, this is the worst film I have ever seen....
Epidoes 1-3 are perhaps worst directed major blockbuster films ever (well, the Hobbits come close). They are so bland and uninspired - there are no dynamics, no tension, everything is just people talking on greenscreen (and those backgrounds have NOT aged well, I gotta say), or walking and talking if George was feeling particularly frisky and edgy that day. Also they introduce no interesting new characters, everything is either rehash of old stuff (hey. Boba Fett's dad using the exact same suit...err...) or just plain badly done like entirety of Trade Federation.
Episodes 7-8 have plot holes too, and have too much rehash from the old movies but at least some thought was put on plots and characters and the directing is dynamic and engaging.
No I watch a lot of films, a hell of a lot of films, and the really bad films I have watched dont try to wrap themselves up as amazing blockbusters, they are bad and usually have a wink at it, this film, bad story, bad acting, terrible pacing, bad edits, cliche and very predictable story, terrible characters etc. etc.
Dare I say... even episode 2 and 3 were better than this, even episode 1 was slightly better than this terrible film.
So yes, this is the worst film I have ever seen....
Epidoes 1-3 are perhaps worst directed major blockbuster films ever (well, the Hobbits come close). They are so bland and uninspired - there are no dynamics, no tension, everything is just people talking on greenscreen (and those backgrounds have NOT aged well, I gotta say), or walking and talking if George was feeling particularly frisky and edgy that day. Also they introduce no interesting new characters, everything is either rehash of old stuff (hey. Boba Fett's dad using the exact same suit...err...) or just plain badly done like entirety of Trade Federation.
Episodes 7-8 have plot holes too, and have too much rehash from the old movies but at least some thought was put on plots and characters and the directing is dynamic and engaging.
Not gonna comment on 7, that's a whole different can of worms.
While the prequel trilogy was terribly directed, so it appears this has been too, there were scenes when it was raining, then sunny, then raining again and no indication that perhaps time was supposed to be moving on between the scenes, that's horrible direction and editing.
Now here's the thing, episode 8 is just as guilty of the exact same things as the prequels that you mentioned, but is somehow managing to do it even worse, rey sucks and is token female lead, fin is so obviously the token black guy, now we have the new token Asian, this film is just chock full of token characters that no one actually has any actual character, they killed off token bad guy number 263 for... reasons, Jesus this film is nothing more than a polished turd
I don't consider myself a Star Wars fan boy I like bits but hate bits too.
I didn't like the movie, not everything but the bits I didn't like ruined it for me
Spoiler:
Liked Opening bit with Poe n hux though it was genuinely funny and in character
Eddie hitler The opening star battle. It had a lot of weight to it.
Mark Hamils performance
Luke for most of the movie
Luke being clever to save the day
The ray/snoke/Ren scene right up to the lightsaber blowing up.
Chewie porg BBQ scene
Was alright with but would have preferred something else Rey not being Luke's daughter, I just wanted Luke to have got some. Open up the possibility of Mara jade. And if she's a prodigy it explains some of her quick grasp of the force.
Didn't like Luke dying,
The phasma dramatic entrance x 2, why did she just walk off to walk back through the smoke.
Luke dying
The Leia space floating / rescue scene, looked bad
Luke dying
Daisy Ridley was a bit flat in her delivery at times.
Luke dying
Casino bit, just didn't seem to give me or the story anything, and felt like it robbed the story for time better spent elsewhere.
Luke dying
The resistance being chased by the first order just seemed dull and boring. Especially if you compare it to a similar situation as you had in Battlestar Galactica.
Luke dying
The cret battle was bland until Luke "showed up", the rebels are going to lose but it could have been more. Compared to Hoth this doesn't stand remotely close.
Luke dying
Obviously there's a pattern above
Why are you killing off Luke In this film, I get that his projection has taken a load out of him but he's fething luke skywalker. Give him a better death where he actually gets to be a badass, what he does in this film would have been a great start to a heroic act 2 death In ep 9.
Why let him know that he needs to learn from his mistakes just to let him die?
One of the criticisms from the first trilogy is how Luke gets to Vader beating level with little training by not killing Luke you can have Rey get trained this time by someone who has learned from their mistakes.
So...Rey's second hand lightsaber is broken, and she'll probably need to make a new one and recycle the Khyber crystal (which appeared to be intact).
What sort of lightsaber do you think she'll make? I'm hoping she'll incorporate her old quarterstaff and make a force pike, or a double bladed lightsaber like Darth Maul. And I want it to be silver/white in colour, to reflect a Grey Jedi status.
As mentioned, there's a difference between tracking a ship through hyperspace and appearing right on its tail moments later and tracking it once it comes out of hyperspace and having to chase to catch up. The First Order figured out a way to do the former, which cost The Resistance time they were already short on.
As for Luke
Spoiler:
I'd argue he did die as a badass. Facing down an army, buying his friends and allies time to escape, putting Kylo squarely in his place and inspiring everyone around him. It doesn't matter that the body of Luke Skywalker was on a rock half a galaxy away, what matters is that the legend of Luke Skywalker was there on that battlefield, giving his everything for a chance at a better future like he's been prepared to do time and time again.
If anything, I'd say it's even more significant that he wasn't actually on the field. Being able to change the face of a battle and turn a certain defeat into at least a partial victory, all without even being there, is a far greater testament to the heroism and legend of Luke than simply turning up to smack Kylo around in a saber fight.
It's sad that he's gone (though I'm certain he'll appear again in Ghostly form) but unlike Han's death, I don't think it was tragic. He wasn't robbed of his life, he wasn't killed, he wasn't betrayed. He found his purpose, and gave his all for it.
Personally, I think in light of what happened to Carrie, they should have changed that final scene and had a rethink about the future storylines.
Spoiler:
It's going to be rough going into the new films with none of the original characters around in the flesh. - Heck, Chewie in TLJ had maybe 2 minutes of screentime in the film (and lets be honest, all my love to Peter Mayhew, but Chewie is the most recastable actor, he should have had a WAY bigger part in the film.
But you also say this is the worst film you've ever seen so you now have two contradicting statements. Either you are lying to us our yourself but either way there is dishonesty somewhere.
I feel like there were several movies all pressed together into an unholy mess. The Kylo/Rey/Luke stuff wasn't to bad whereas the stuff on the fleet with Poe/Hux/Leia was poorly implemented and the "casino world" seemed like a huge waste of time and good people. When they were on the ship trying to stay out of range of the First Order and suddenly had to go to another planet and then come back I'm, pretty sure I groaned audibly. Crazy_Carnifex's suggesting would have made it better but it seems like that whole section of the film needs a rewrite. I also agree that to often they undercut serious moments with attempts at humor. It was as bad as Thor: Ragnarok in letting a moment be a moment but it was still somewhat consistent in undermining itself. Of course I also didn't think they should have let Leia force pull her way out of total vacuum and near death nor did I think Roase Saving Finn was a powerful moment but a bit silly. It would have been a good arc for Finn and showed growth and conviction instead they had a deus ex machina keep the movie from having real weight. The only people really allowed to die were ones we hardly knew, like purple haired Admiral that we were supposed dislike one minute and love the next, or Snoke who we really know nothing about (unless you buy outside sources which I have long said I am not of fan of when understanding a movie).
I also sort of felt they did the whole salt on red earth just because it would cool, which it did.
*I agree that Luke went out well, buying time for the Resistance and showing up Kylo but I'm not sure I would call what happened to him dying. He certainly joined the Force like Yoda or Obi-Wan but unlike the ones mentioned above I wouldn't call him dead.
One of the criticisms from the first trilogy is how Luke gets to Vader beating level with little training
In the first trilogy Luke gets to 'Vader beating level' by embracing his rage and anger and just pounding the crap out of him until he chops Vader's hand off and shocks himself out of the dark side rage he slid into, finally realizing he's walking the exact same path as Vader. Vader kills the Emperor when he finally realizes the same thing: that he is going to be discarded and Luke will wind up in the exact same position- half a man, mostly monster.
By contrast, Luke's 'Light side Jedi' strategy for beating Vader is refuse to fight and wait for the rebels to blow them all up along with the death star.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: So...Rey's second hand lightsaber is broken, and she'll probably need to make a new one and recycle the Khyber crystal (which appeared to be intact).
What sort of lightsaber do you think she'll make? I'm hoping she'll incorporate her old quarterstaff and make a force pike, or a double bladed lightsaber like Darth Maul. And I want it to be silver/white in colour, to reflect a Grey Jedi status.
I think they're going to try to one-up Ren's stupid cruciform saber. Maybe the spinny throwy thing from Krull. Or something from Warcraft, like Maiev's loopty-hoop blade.
Mayhew has retired as Chewie already, it was Suotamo all the time in Ep.8.
Seems most of the hate for Ep8 is centered around Luke. I guess I get it somehow, if you have got used to the idea of Luke being the ultimate white knight in shining armour, it is tough seeing him become cynical PTSD vet. For me, there are no such sacred cows in Star Wars universe so I don't mind.
I think the whole Luke dying was supposed to mirror Yoda.
In that the greatest and most powerful Jedi dies from old age.
Maybe if Luke was running laps around his island, his heart wouldn't have given up. But it feels a little of a cop out.
Spoiler:
Honestly anyone who didn't see Luke dying somehow I think is being naive. They'd never be able to keep focus on any of the new cast with Luke running around. They had to resolve him somehow, and the options were kill him or come up with some stupid reason for why he's off nowhere not doing anything. Now somehow they went option 2 on TFA and then used both in TLJ which seems like a poor decision but Luke was basically doomed the moment a new trilogy came out and I have no idea why anyone would expect otherwise. This was the easiest part of this film to guess.
Compel wrote: Personally, I think in light of what happened to Carrie, they should have changed that final scene and had a rethink about the future storylines.
Spoiler:
It's going to be rough going into the new films with none of the original characters around in the flesh. - Heck, Chewie in TLJ had maybe 2 minutes of screentime in the film (and lets be honest, all my love to Peter Mayhew, but Chewie is the most recastable actor, he should have had a WAY bigger part in the film.
To be honest, I'd much rather them stay true to the Episode VIII they originally envisioned, especially since Carrie Fisher had already shot all her scenes for it, than mess around with it in post-production and re-shoots to edit that original story. I think it's evident Rian Johnson had a very clear vision for TLJ that would have suffered had he messed with it.
I have faith that whatever form Leia's story takes in Episode IX, it'll be appropriate and respectful. Even if it's a combination of stock/deleted footage or even Leia as an absent figurehead/appearing via hologram to inspire resistance across the galaxy, I think that'd be enough.
Spoiler:
The use of the original 'Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi' hologram in TLJ was a beautiful tribute to her legacy, I think. It served a purpose in getting Luke back into action, but also served as a very poignant tribute to the Princess that started it all...
That and Luke's line, 'No one's ever really gone.' I think that's definitely a nod to Fisher and the legacy she left behind. As long as there's a Star Wars, there'll be a Leia and a Carrie Fisher.
I think the whole Luke dying was supposed to mirror Yoda.
In that the greatest and most powerful Jedi dies from old age.
Maybe if Luke was running laps around his island, his heart wouldn't have given up. But it feels a little of a cop out.
Spoiler:
Honestly anyone who didn't see Luke dying somehow I think is being naive. They'd never be able to keep focus on any of the new cast with Luke running around. They had to resolve him somehow, and the options were kill him or come up with some stupid reason for why he's off nowhere not doing anything. Now somehow they went option 2 on TFA and then used both in TLJ which seems like a poor decision but Luke was basically doomed the moment a new trilogy came out and I have no idea why anyone would expect otherwise. This was the easiest part of this film to guess.
Spoiler:
Oh I know. No one survives the "30 years later" types of sequels.
I would just have preferred an obi wan type of ending. Where he actually sacrifices himself in person. I just feel like it has more meaning.
Talking about Finn, I actually like his character, he has very distinct mannerisms, he is goofy but just enough not goofy to drop into comic sidekick territory. Problem is that the writers seem to be at loss what to do with him: he is a grunt and that's the limit of his expertise. When removed from the special circumstances at Ep. 7, he is no longer equal to his companions who are far more powerful and important that he is. Poe is an ace pilot and commanding officer and Rey is a powerful Force user/Jedi prospect. How they are going to justify keeping a sweeper around these characters?
I like how they haven't tried to cram a romance aspect down our throats like cringeworthy Padme/Ani 'love story' in prequels. It is obvious that Kylo and Finn are both at least somewhat attracted to Rey, creating a triangle of sort and associated tension, but it's very subtle. Given how blunt they have been in many other respecs, such restraint is to be applauded, hope they don't screw it up in Ep9.
I feel that in general, biggest problem of the new trilogy is (besides too much borrowing from the original trilogy) lack of effective scary villains. I like Kylo Ren's complicated character but he is just not enough scary, and neither is Snoke. Hux is just a comedic figure (the guy commanding the Dreadnought was much, much better) and Phasma is impressive but shown way too little to be effective.
I feel that in general, biggest problem of the new trilogy is (besides too much borrowing from the original trilogy) lack of effective scary villains. I like Kylo Ren's complicated character but he is just not enough scary, and neither is Snoke. Hux is just a comedic figure (the guy commanding the Dreadnought was much, much better) and Phasma is impressive but shown way too little to be effective.
Spoiler:
I think Kylo will fill that role in IX. Unlike the OT where Vader was powerful from the start and Luke's arc was all about finally being strong enough to face him, Kylo is still on his ascent. I think killing Snoke and taking control of the First Order will be his crucible, and he'll emerge from that as a villain as terrifying and ominous as Vader. I actually expect him to get a new saber (or at least 'fix' his makeshift current one) and a new set of Vader-esque armour in the next episode as symbols of his new power, both with the Force and as Supreme Leader of the FO.
Kylo and Rey are running parallel, both starting out as inexperienced and powerless in VII and both affirming their opposing allegiances in in VIII. To continue that, I expect both will rise to become exceptionally powerful in IX, both figureheads of their respective causes and supremely powerful with their side of the Force. Which should lead to a pretty bloody epic showdown at the trilogy's conclusion...
I can see them actually doing a whole horribly burned thing with her. - Trying to evoke some Vaderness in her, maybe? Or perhaps Guardian's "Nebula" may be a closer example.
Finn, yeah, I can see what you're saying. I really enjoy Finn, he's charismatic as all heck but they've done the, "I know Imperial secrets" twice in two films now with him, with the second time it not even being helpful.
As mentioned, there's a difference between tracking a ship through hyperspace and appearing right on its tail moments later and tracking it once it comes out of hyperspace and having to chase to catch up. The First Order figured out a way to do the former, which cost The Resistance time they were already short on.
As for Luke
[spoiler]
I'd argue he did die as a badass. Facing down an army, buying his friends and allies time to escape, putting Kylo squarely in his place and inspiring everyone around him. It doesn't matter that the body of Luke Skywalker was on a rock half a galaxy away, what matters is that the legend of Luke Skywalker was there on that battlefield, giving his everything for a chance at a better future like he's been prepared to do time and time again.
If anything, I'd say it's even more significant that he wasn't actually on the field. Being able to change the face of a battle and turn a certain defeat into at least a partial victory, all without even being there, is a far greater testament to the heroism and legend of Luke than simply turning up to smack Kylo around in a saber fight.
It's sad that he's gone (though I'm certain he'll appear again in Ghostly form) but unlike Han's death, I don't think it was tragic. He wasn't robbed of his life, he wasn't killed, he wasn't betrayed. He found his purpose, and gave his all for it.
[/spoiler]
Spoiler:
I kinda see where your coming from Para, but as much as I liked what Luke did to save them, that shouldn't have been his ending. What he does makes more sense than him riding in on his x wing in this film, what he does is badass but..
For him to just "poof" out on a rock nope, have him have this moment of snatching some hope from a defeat, then in 9 you will have done the hard yards for him to meet his end in person not just going "poof" after being sweaty.
After he's stoked the spark from this last film
After he has helped leia rebuild the rebellion by continuing to build the legend
After he's had the opportunity to train Rey after learning from his mistakes with kylo
But their limited in the time they can spend "manifested" can't they.
Rey had like one lesson off of Luke over the space of a few days I'm sure she could do with more than an occasional pop up otherwise maybe she is a Mary Sue....
But their limited in the time they can spend "manifested" can't they.
Rey had like one lesson off of Luke over the space of a few days I'm sure she could do with more than an occasional pop up otherwise maybe she is a Mary Sue....
Was the opening dialogue with Poe and Hux a ball of cringe? Yes. Were there too many Marvel-esque quips? Yes. Were the Disney owl things completely unnecessary? Yes.
But they could have done so much worse. I was told it was terrible and went in with low expectations, and I was pleasantly surprised.
The Porgs annoyed me less than the Ewoks did.
At least they didn't make the Porgs sentient.
Chewbacca barbecuing and eating a Porg was funny and a good bit of character development for an otherwise 1 Dimensional Character.
Porgs were mainly there because they were covering up the puffins that are everywhere on that island (and it's illegal to physically remove them) and too time intensive to digitally remove them.
I liked the fishnuns.
I also liked the little bit at the end with the kid. Showing that even absolute nobodies can be force users again
chromedog wrote: Porgs were mainly there because they were covering up the puffins that are everywhere on that island (and it's illegal to physically remove them) and too time intensive to digitally remove them.
But less time intensive to paste CGI anthropomorphised Puffins over the top of them?
Apparently there is a bit of a reference to all this in Rogue One.
Spoiler:
When they are in the Imperial stronghold with all the experimental data one that is mentioned specifically is Hyperdrive Tracking tech. Makes sense the First Order would be piggybacking on the Empires research.
I just saw the movie this afternoon and I thought it was good, but not great. Just like TFA. It does leave me wondering where they will go with Episode IX, though.
Spoiler:
The porgs were just a massive distraction, but they were really cute, so I don't mind too much.
That bit dialogue between Poe and General Hux was awesome! Having a guy in a little starfighter troll the commander of the mighty space fleet was pretty funny.
I'm very glad to see that they didn't go with the rumored big gay love story between Poe and Finn. Nothing against homosexuals, but it would have been there purely for real world political reasons and that would have cheapened it. It did seem that Finn might have found himself a new girlfriend, though.
I loved that bit with Luke projecting himself onto the planet. The look on Kylo Ren's face...
The one thing that really, really bothered me was the complete lack of knowledge of basic physics by the filmmakers. Starships that run out of fuel don't just slow down and stop, they just can't adjust their course or speed any more. You don't have to keep applying thrust to keep moving. It's something Star Wars has never gotten right, though, even in the old movies.
Saw it this morning.
I was unimpressed. I had a hard time staying awake. Probably the most boring of the saga. Not as bad as episode one but pretty close.
Pros:
Spoiler:
Good special effects. Chewbacca got a good amount of screen time without being shoe horned in. New ship designs looked nice.
Hyperspace collision was incredible and probably the only reason I'd ever watch the movie again.
Cons:
Spoiler:
Way too much "humor". Almost every good scene was ruined with a lame joke. Those stupid penguin... seriously, are they a sentient species? If they're just animals then their reactions are silly. If they're sentient then why would they ever follow Chewbacca around?
Where did Luke find a mile long fishing spear on an island with a single dead tree? How did he get the fish off the end of the hook? Don't say he used the force... He turned it off, remember?
That Poe/Hux phone call... If I had gone to the theater by myself I would have walked out right then and there. That first scene made the film DOA for me. At that point I just stopped caring and immediately felt the hatred I felt at the end of of Episode 1.
Snoke... Pointless.
Finn... Pointless.
Phasma... Pointless.
Rose... Pointless.
Del Toro... Pointless and perhaps the most blatant deus ex machina ever.
Casino scene... Pointless (Keep your James Bond/ Oceans Eleven plots out of Star Wars please).
Hux... Pointless.
The Jurassic Park woman... Pointless.
What was with the whole "Man of Steel" Princess Leia?
How come all the women in the movie had perfect hair and make up? Were they not as stressed and weary as the men?
Those stupid racing animals... Wth was that all about?
That fake chicken Chewbacca was eating. Like... 100%
plastic prop. Perfectly cooked over an open flame... So perfect it was a stiff as a board. How much do you think that prop cost? Probably more than a $8 rotissery chicken which would have looked far more realistic. Why have a fire to cook anyway? Why not cook and stay warm inside the Falcon?
Kylo and Rey are running parallel, both starting out as inexperienced and powerless in VII and both affirming their opposing allegiances in in VIII. To continue that, I expect both will rise to become exceptionally powerful in IX, both figureheads of their respective causes and supremely powerful with their side of the Force.
Questions.
What are their causes? This has bugged me for both the new films. The Resisty was separate from the Republic for... reasons, and the First Order was the cosplay Empire attacking the Resisty but also the Republic also for... reasons. But what does either faction actually support as a cause? What do they want in any way at all? Do they have any goals? Do the people working for them have any sort of expectation for what the galaxy will look like if they win? Does Ren have any particular goals in mind beyond 'be grandpa?' Did Rey pick up any personal desires beyond 'wait in a wasteland to be fetched' and, well, 'not be kidnapped?'
As for potentially exceptionally and supremely powerful figureheads (which is a bit confusing- if they're that powerful, why would they just be figureheads?)... what would either of them do? Just have a duel to the death for lack of anything better to do? Does TLJ set up anything to happen in episode 9? Are there stakes or goals still in play for anyone to pursue?
Don't get the love for Rogue1. It was watchable but everyone involved lacked charisma and the movie didn't really advance Star Wars lore in any way. Also ending, though very tense, was very contrived.
Yeah Rogue One had too much blatant fan service in there, some cringey characters like the IP man guy. They even throw in the friggin guys from the mos eisley cantina. I think potential for a good movie is there but it needs to be recut and remastered. Some stuff needs to be removed, including all of the moments with mr IP man chanting those lines over and over. The CG on Tarkin and Leia is unforgivably bad. Honestly these movies are going into parady pastiche territory real quick.
I think TLJ makes Rey a confirmed mary sue as well. There isn't even any debating it now.
Thargrim wrote: Yeah Rogue One had too much blatant fan service in there, some cringey characters like the IP man guy. They even throw in the friggin guys from the mos eisley cantina. I think potential for a good movie is there but it needs to be recut and remastered. Some stuff needs to be removed, including all of the moments with mr IP man chanting those lines over and over. The CG on Tarkin and Leia is unforgivably bad. Honestly these movies are going into parady pastiche territory real quick.
I think TLJ makes Rey a confirmed mary sue as well. There isn't even any debating it now.
The Rey is a Mary Sue crap is nonsense. If Rey is a Mary Sue then EVERYONE in starwars is a Mary Sue.
Anakin is a mary sue for randomly being the most powerful person on record or whatever. Then he murders a bunch of children, and then mary sues his way into force ghost jedi heaven because he protected his own kid. That totally makes up for the decades of murder and willfully participating in the killing of an entire planet.
Lukes a Mary Sue.
Han Solo, the biggest Mary Sue of all. His every character flaw is actually a benefit to him and everyone loves him even though hes basically a horrible drug dealing smuggling piece of gak of a person.
We follow these people as the main characters because they are exceptional. Following regular or crappy people would be boring.
Rey is no worse, and often better then the other protagonists in the other movies.
Oh, come on. She's an orphaned scavenger on a hell planet who is routinely shortchanged on basic rations to the point that she doesn't even bother to protest. She should be malnourished, half dead, scarred and generally look like she has skin the consistency of shoe leather.
Instead, she's
an engineering prodigy,
a crack pilot in space or atmosphere, doesn't matter, regardless of the lack of aerodynamics of a ship she's never flown before, doing maneuvers experienced pilots can't pull off in maneuverable fighters;
an expert staff fighter,
knows droid system language,
skilled climber,
can kill a man casually with her second ever shot with a pistol,
Effective light saber fighter, despite never touching one
And can learn complex Jedi mind tricks and other force abilities instantly as she needs them
And she's what... Twenty?
Yeah, doesn't fit a Mary Sue in any way at all.
Just like that 'not a bad pilot' farm boy who needed coaching (even through the climatic moment) and formal training and a fairly unsuccessful smuggler.
Voss wrote: Oh, come on. She's an orphaned scavenger on a hell planet who is routinely shortchanged on basic rations to the point that she doesn't even bother to protest. She should be malnourished, half dead, scarred and generally look like she has skin the consistency of shoe leather.
Instead, she's an engineering prodigy, a crack pilot in space or atmosphere, doesn't matter, regardless of the lack of aerodynamics of a ship she's never flown before, doing maneuvers experienced pilots can't pull off in maneuverable fighters; an expert staff fighter, knows droid system language, skilled climber, can kill a man casually with her second ever shot with a pistol, Effective light saber fighter, despite never touching one And can learn complex Jedi mind tricks and other force abilities instantly as she needs them And she's what... Twenty?
Yeah, doesn't fit a Mary Sue in any way at all.
Just like that 'not a bad pilot' farm boy who needed coaching (even through the climatic moment) and formal training and a fairly unsuccessful smuggler.
Luke, an orphaned farmer on a crap planet who bulls eyes wamp rats in his t16 (apparently only about a meter big, a feat other trained pilots think is nigh impossible) a crack pilot and excellent gunner in a space dog fight despite never having left his gak planet. Knows droid language. Kills a bunch of trained storm troopers the first time he uses a gun in an actual fight. Able to hold his own with a light saber despite his only training being MAYBE a week on a ship in hyper space and not particularly intense training. Learns force tricks instantly as he needs them like shooting those proton torpedos into that shaft without a targetting computer.
Anakin, a slave kid who can speak droid language. Builds a protocol droid from scrap at the age of 7 (that droid is fluent in 6 million forms of communication, which implies that anakin is fluent in 6 million forms of communication since he programed that droid).. Ace pilot who takes out an entire trade federation space station on his own. (again age 7). Knows force tricks at age 7 and picks them up as he needs them. Capable of leaping out of vehicles falling hundreds of feet and landing without injury. etc etc...
The entire cast of starwars always, seem to be incapable of being hit by blasters or explosions from any trained elite troopers of a military order that brings the galaxy to it's knees.
That fairly unsuccessful smuggler takes out the galaxys most successful bounty hunter while blind.
A ship gets torn in half, the explosion takes out hundreds of people in a room wearing armor. The 2 people not wearing armor are unharmed. The people standing in litterally every direction around the unarmored unharmed people are all dead.
Again... it's no different from ANY other character in Starwars. They are all ridiculous. If your upset about Rey why are you NOT upset about Luke or Anakin? Finn? Poe? C3-PO? R2-D2? Han Solo? Yoda? Rose? The new splicer guy? Jar Jar Binks who accidentally wipes out a gak ton of droid soldiers without suffering a single scratch and then works his way into being a senator?
I always assumed that Anakin built C-3PO from spares in Watto's junkyard; Impressive mechanical and electronic engineering, but it didn't imply to me that he programmed a protocol droid from scratch.
Still, I agree with the main thrust of your argument.
I like the porgs, though. I take it no-one in the Star Wars galaxy has laws about introducing invasive species?
Kylo and Rey are running parallel, both starting out as inexperienced and powerless in VII and both affirming their opposing allegiances in in VIII. To continue that, I expect both will rise to become exceptionally powerful in IX, both figureheads of their respective causes and supremely powerful with their side of the Force.
Questions.
What are their causes? This has bugged me for both the new films. The Resisty was separate from the Republic for... reasons, and the First Order was the cosplay Empire attacking the Resisty but also the Republic also for... reasons. But what does either faction actually support as a cause? What do they want in any way at all? Do they have any goals? Do the people working for them have any sort of expectation for what the galaxy will look like if they win? Does Ren have any particular goals in mind beyond 'be grandpa?' Did Rey pick up any personal desires beyond 'wait in a wasteland to be fetched' and, well, 'not be kidnapped?'
As for potentially exceptionally and supremely powerful figureheads (which is a bit confusing- if they're that powerful, why would they just be figureheads?)... what would either of them do? Just have a duel to the death for lack of anything better to do? Does TLJ set up anything to happen in episode 9? Are there stakes or goals still in play for anyone to pursue?
Their causes are self explanatory and have been from the start of TFA. The First Order are The Bad Guys who have significant military power, are in a stalemate with the Republic (inferred from the fact they'd not already been wiped out, they clearly have significant territory, fleet capacity and resources) and want to reinstate The Empire. The Resistance are the group actively standing against that in defence of The Republic.
Ren's goal is the acquisition of power for power's sake. Despite not being a Sith, nor holding the title Darth, he still stands by the tenets of Sith teachings (Passion> Strength> Power> Victory). In killing his Master, he becomes the Master (I doubt he'll take an apprentice, though I wouldn't be against it) and by stepping up to lead the First Order he gains power over swathes of the galaxy and the ability to bring the rest of it to heel shortly.
Rey's goal is a little more muddy. I imagine she'll give up any attempt to redeem Kylo now, he's too far gone, but she must still decide whether she wants to stay true to the ways of The Jedi despite Luke's warnings or become something new. With his sacrifice, Luke placed his renewed faith in her to continue the Jedi way while learning from its troubled history. Whether or not she does that is something we'll see in IX.
As for stakes going forward, there definitely are. The entire Rebellion now exists inside one beat-up old freighter. The First Order are weeks away from total control of the galaxy. The Last Jedi is gone. It's not a cliffhanger in the same way TFA was (which is good, as they don't need to pick up IX exactly where TLJ left off and can jump forward a bit) but the Good Guys are in a bind, the Bad Guys are ascendant and there's a lot of unfinished business. Rey and Kylo have a score to settle, we still don't know Leia's fate, Poe will have to step into his new responsibility as de-facto Rebel leader, Finn has to decide what he's going to become.... So yeah, there's plenty to look forward to.
Just because there are no 'mysteries' that can fuel 'CONFIRMED!!1!' videos on Youtube for the next two years, doesn't mean the story lacked stakes or failed to set up a fascinating third instalment.
AndrewGPaul wrote: I always assumed that Anakin built C-3PO from spares in Watto's junkyard; Impressive mechanical and electronic engineering, but it didn't imply to me that he programmed a protocol droid from scratch.
Still, I agree with the main thrust of your argument.
I like the porgs, though. I take it no-one in the Star Wars galaxy has laws about introducing invasive species?
Which only goes to show how much of an idiot Anakin is.
Oh wow you made a protocol droid to help your mother. She's a slave Anakin, what in the seven winds of the force is she going to need a protocol droid for?
I also liked the little bit at the end with the kid. Showing that even absolute nobodies can be force users again
I loved that. To me, it's not just it's meaning in the film, it's a nod to every kid whose ever stood in the garden with a broom handle/torch//tinfoil tube/long stick and pretended it's a lightsaber (so, I'd like to think, basically every kid since 1977... ). It was also a nice shot to close the film on, as I think giving the final shot to a particular character like TFA did wouldn't have worked; people would attribute too much importance to that and I can't think any character 'deserved' the closing shot more than any other.
Though I'm sure The Internet will spend the next 2 years tying itself in knots trying to work out who That Kid is, given the lack of any other mystery!
Pure eyecandy
Music Score
Lukes send off with the two suns
Some of the Imperial humor
Bad:
Snokes Death
Lukes Death
Luke and Leia being failures
Reys parents being "revealed" as what we were basically told they were in VII
Killing off Snoke is an issue because:
* Rian Johnson claimed his characters shouldn't be a wiki page and so back story isn't important. But good characters tend to have wiki pages written about them; not the other way around. I cannot understand a director claiming that under developing his characters is a good thing. He also basically admits to making stuff up as he went along. This is the man helming a new trilogy and he already shows his disdain for character and world building.
* Kylo Ren and Hux are not intimidating characters. They are joke characters who are just slimy and Rey already beat Kylo Ren and he only beat Snoke by a cheap shot. Supreme Leader Ren behaved like an impulsive brat at the Battle of Krait. Neither of these can hold a film as the lead villain.
* They made such a big deal about his origin and convinced people that there was a depth and deeper significance behind his character. This amounts to pure bait and switch as it turns out he is just "generic dark side user" who appeared from nowhere. Why would a writer show clear disdain for fans taking an interest in his own characters?
Luke:
* It is not okay to depict Luke, the main hero of the original trilogy as a failure who could not refound the Jedi Order. Especially when they are being so Mary Sue with Rey and having her set up to do just that. Why bring a character just to beat us over the head for three hours about how he was a failure? Its disrespectful to demean the original trilogy to make your own characters look good.
* There was no reason for Luke to die in that scene. They clearly wanted him out of the way, just like the rest of the original cast so that Rey can reform the Jedi Order and save the galaxy. This isn't passing the torch, its committing suicide with the torch.
Reys Parents:
* Much like Snoke, you should never build up a mystery when there is no mystery. We are told in the last film that Rey was abandoned on Jakku. Our starting assumption is that they are just normal people until proved otherwise. To be told they are ordinary people is not a revelation and it shouldn't be a revelation for the character either.
* I have read a lot of defenses about this because it makes Rey "one of us". But I don't get that at all. It confuses the notion of family identity, legacy and mythology; which can have a very powerful resonance in story telling. A good example is the Starks from Game of Thrones. Theres a whole identity and mythology built around simply being a member of that family which is beautifully conveyed. Its not because the show or books are selling an elitist line. I really doubt people who read fantasy books about Kings or the peasant finding out hes royalty and are ardent royalists. All this does is take away the idea that Rey is someone of significance to the story. She is powerful simply because the plot has demanded it and given her all these abilities without actually trying or training.
* On that point. I do not understand why Disney seems to think we won't be impressed if we see Rey need to train with her lightsaber or spend more than 20 seconds practicing instead if just winging it and winning every time. Even Wonder Woman spends a lot of time training on Themiskyra learning from her fellow Amazons and shes literally a Goddess who we are meant to be in awe of for most of the movie. Just have her start as a Jedi Master if you want her at that power level. They had a pretty clear opportunity to do just that in this movie and willfully chose not to despite enormous criticism over precisely these things. Even Snoke notes that she has never held a lightsaber before in her life. Believe me, I am the last person to complain about a powerful female character being awesome; but it has to make sense.
"A few rotten apples"
* I've noticed a ton of reviewers sites seem incredibly biased against any criticism of the movie. Firstly they claim its only a small number of people, despite only a 56% audience score on Rotten Tomatoes. 46% is more than a few. A few is more like the Force Awakens which had an 88% approval rating.
* They've also taken an extremely negative view of this criticism on the grounds that it subverts expectation whereas the Force Awakens was criticized for being too much like the original trilogy. This is people muddying the waters. People complained about FA for being a carbon copy of the original. LJ is really continuing that trend with whole sequences taken from the trilogy. The straight forward explanation is that it has taken the story in a direction a substantial number of people took exception to. People are obviously more bothered by Snoke/Luke/Rey than they were by the flaws of the previous movie.
* Basically Rian Johnson has taken a massive turd on some of the most intriguing plot points from the Force Awakens and has gutted this trilogy.
Though I'm sure The Internet will spend the next 2 years tying itself in knots trying to work out who That Kid is, given the lack of any other mystery!
I don't think so at all for a few reasons.
* All the questions we had at the end of FA have either been proven to be unimportant.
* LJ does not raise any new questions.
Why will people ask new questions or do lore videos when Disney put so little thought into their own characters and story. Snokes just generic Mr Dark Side who comes out of nowhere, says a few lines and is promptly killed.
It proves that they are shallow story tellers. A Song of Ice and Fire this is not. So it confirms that there aren't complex reasons or well thought out explanations to any of this story. The First Order has ships because reasons. Snoke exists because reasons. The Republic didn't learn about the FO rearming because reasons. To Rian Johnson and JJ Abrams these things are irrelevant. Such shallow story telling is not worth analyzing or anybody's time.
Basically all the Star Wars geeks have just been slapped across the face by Disney and I don't see why after being so badly burned they'll go back to making theory videos when its clear they're just making stuff up as they go along.
The reason people are happy about Rey having ordinary parents is that, especially with the old EU, the sense of scale was really lacking. Everything involved the same planets and the same characters, with every person and event somehow related so that they could milk the cash cow of nostalgia instead of coming up with new ideas. Having Rey be Luke's daughter or whatever would have been a similar lack of imagination, that in a whole galaxy full of uncountably many people everyone of significance in a new story has to be related to the characters in the old one. But thankfully Disney found the courage to break the cycle and make new characters with their own stories to tell, who don't meet any cash-cow-milking nostalgia until they're established on their own. They did it with Poe, they did it with Finn, and now they've confirmed that the fan speculation was all nonsense and they did it with Rey.
Also, remember that the actual movie never hinted at Rey having important parents, that was entirely fan speculation. Nor is the revelation that her parents aren't major galactic figures. It's why they abandoned her. She comforted herself with the idea that her parents didn't really abandon her, that there was some greater cause that they were serving. They might be nobody, but at least they were good. But nope, she's on her own, there is no more comforting lie.
Peregrine wrote: The reason people are happy about Rey having ordinary parents is that, especially with the old EU, the sense of scale was really lacking. Everything involved the same planets and the same characters, with every person and event somehow related so that they could milk the cash cow of nostalgia instead of coming up with new ideas. Having Rey be Luke's daughter or whatever would have been a similar lack of imagination, that in a whole galaxy full of uncountably many people everyone of significance in a new story has to be related to the characters in the old one. But thankfully Disney found the courage to break the cycle and make new characters with their own stories to tell, who don't meet any cash-cow-milking nostalgia until they're established on their own. They did it with Poe, they did it with Finn, and now they've confirmed that the fan speculation was all nonsense and they did it with Rey.
Also, remember that the actual movie never hinted at Rey having important parents, that was entirely fan speculation. Nor is the revelation that her parents aren't major galactic figures. It's why they abandoned her. She comforted herself with the idea that her parents didn't really abandon her, that there was some greater cause that they were serving. They might be nobody, but at least they were good. But nope, she's on her own, there is no more comforting lie.
I think that having a force sensitive person randomly pop up is normal in the universe. Anakin, Yoda, all the Jedi of the prequels show no hint of having inherited such feature. Is a bit like the psychic powers in 40k, in a way. So, yeah. Is true that is nice that the fact that she is a "random" makes the galaxy bigger. I would argue that they did everything in every other aspect to make the galaxy smaller, but that's about it. My problem is Rey as a character. She has shown a very fast development as a character, way faster (and not littered with continuous failure and need for help from friends) than Luke. She fixes the falcon, learn the force, speaks with droids and Chewbacca, beats in a swordfight a guy trained by luke skywalker. I see they are doing a continuous subversion of the usual tropes but this comes at the cost of logic. When I pointed out the Sue-ish character of Rey, back then, people told me that in the next movie we would have seen either that she has Skywalker blood, or that she had her memory cancelled. "wait the next movie, it will make sense". I find such sentence almost insulting, but I waited. What we have now? I would argue an even worse situation. For the sake of another subversion, we don't really feel the training as something Luke had with Yoda. I did not perceive a true mentoring. I don't see her struggle and fail like I did see with Luke. Along with the fact that the background of Finn implies a completely different character, these are the things that, along with setting inconsistencies, characters and plot points with no beginning and/or no end, throw me out of the movie. It feels so artificial. For Rey more than anything else, because I have the feeling that writers in general are unable to write proper modern female characters. Thay are either a damsel in distress or an action heroine too perfect end efficient compared to the male counterparts. I miss a character like Ripley dearly. For the life of me, I cannot understand all the praise.
Peregrine wrote: The reason people are happy about Rey having ordinary parents is that, especially with the old EU, the sense of scale was really lacking. Everything involved the same planets and the same characters, with every person and event somehow related so that they could milk the cash cow of nostalgia instead of coming up with new ideas. Having Rey be Luke's daughter or whatever would have been a similar lack of imagination, that in a whole galaxy full of uncountably many people everyone of significance in a new story has to be related to the characters in the old one. But thankfully Disney found the courage to break the cycle and make new characters with their own stories to tell, who don't meet any cash-cow-milking nostalgia until they're established on their own. They did it with Poe, they did it with Finn, and now they've confirmed that the fan speculation was all nonsense and they did it with Rey.
Also, remember that the actual movie never hinted at Rey having important parents, that was entirely fan speculation. Nor is the revelation that her parents aren't major galactic figures. It's why they abandoned her. She comforted herself with the idea that her parents didn't really abandon her, that there was some greater cause that they were serving. They might be nobody, but at least they were good. But nope, she's on her own, there is no more comforting lie.
That's a huge mischaracterization of the EU. It added A LOT of new planets, species and locations in the Star Wars mythos. You also have plenty of new ideas like the Mandalorian Wars and Yuuzhang Vong to name a few. Take The Old Republic MMO. Yes, you do have a lot of worlds from the films. But you also have lots of new worlds like Belsavis, Drommund Kaas, Voss and Balmorra. I mean the Vong invasion is a multi book series detailing a galactic invasion, the EU did not lack for a sense of scale. If anything the new trilogy has been intensely parochial and narrow in scope boiling down to a few skirmishes in the Outer Rim; their wider implications only alluded to.
Which is my point. If your fans take a very keen interest in the character you don't slap them in the face. That sort of thing only tends to dampen peoples enthusiasm. Especially the way this is done in the film. It needlessly belabors the fact Rey is nobody and seems to set up something significant when she falls into the Dark Side well. That is purposeful misdirection and felt like it was aimed less at Rey and more at the audience.
We knew that they abandoned Rey because we see them fly off. It was not a meaningful revelation that they abandoned her. You actually see the abandonment. Rey never says they had a more complex reason for leaving. She simply says they'll be back. There really isn't a positive spin put on this by her.
You're saying we should respect Rey for being an ordinary person, like us who makes her own legend? Well:
1) Why should I sympathize with Rey for being an ordinary person? Nobody ever says "I like you because you're a perfectly average person". Its a meaningless concept. What we do is we qualify this with their character, where they come from, what they have done and basically do everything to pull that person from obscurity. So basically a hero cannot be an ordinary person by definition. So making Rey ordinary does nothing for her character.
2) Rey isn't like us. She has been chosen as a champion of the light by the force. They both haven't done enough to develop her character or through sloppy writing have rubbed me the wrong way. The intent is clearly, like Daenerys, that this is a powerful female character tempered by having a kind nature and an emotional vulnerability. However, she is simply made master at everything without ever even picking up a lightsaber; so her power is not something we are left in awe of but creates confusion. Her kind nature is lost in an attempt to make her look tough. Its one thing to pour scorn on Kylo Ren and belittle him, its another to do so to people on your own side. Whilst her emotional vulnerability like running off after Maz tells her about her vision and trying to redeem Kylo simply made her look foolish and that she cared more about herself or Kylo than the fate of everyone else in the galaxy. In fact it made her seem selfish and petty.
3) Rey hasn't made her own legend. Po blew up Starkiller base. Finn the first Stormtrooper to defect. Luke saves everyone on Krait. Leia leads the Resistance to safety. So far Rey has beaten a wounded emo, beat some red armoured stormtroopers and lifted some rocks. That's two films in which she hasn't done an awful lot. By this point Luke had blown up the Death Star, brought down two ATAT walkers, trained with Master Yoda, survived a fateful encounter with Darth Vader where his hand was chopped off. I am not saying Rey should be like Starkiller from Force Unleashed; but she really hasn't done an awful lot for all the complaining over her being OP. I have no doubt in the third film she will refound the Jedi Order, finally kill the emo and make her blue double bladed lightsaber to finally turn her into Satele Shan from The Old Republic MMO. So as of this film they have not made a legend of Rey.
I loved that. To me, it's not just it's meaning in the film, it's a nod to every kid whose ever stood in the garden with a broom handle/torch//tinfoil tube/long stick and pretended it's a lightsaber (so, I'd like to think, basically every kid since 1977...
That's fine, but is a nod to adults that were those kids. Barring the fact that is another thing that puts you outside the movie, is time subtracted to adventure.
As a kid, I did not want to be a kid in that universe. I wanted to be Luke, Han, Lando (and the girls Leia).
What we have now in place of those four?
Peregrine wrote: The reason people are happy about Rey having ordinary parents is that, especially with the old EU, the sense of scale was really lacking. Everything involved the same planets and the same characters, with every person and event somehow related so that they could milk the cash cow of nostalgia instead of coming up with new ideas. Having Rey be Luke's daughter or whatever would have been a similar lack of imagination, that in a whole galaxy full of uncountably many people everyone of significance in a new story has to be related to the characters in the old one. But thankfully Disney found the courage to break the cycle and make new characters with their own stories to tell, who don't meet any cash-cow-milking nostalgia until they're established on their own. They did it with Poe, they did it with Finn, and now they've confirmed that the fan speculation was all nonsense and they did it with Rey.
Also, remember that the actual movie never hinted at Rey having important parents, that was entirely fan speculation. Nor is the revelation that her parents aren't major galactic figures. It's why they abandoned her. She comforted herself with the idea that her parents didn't really abandon her, that there was some greater cause that they were serving. They might be nobody, but at least they were good. But nope, she's on her own, there is no more comforting lie.
I think that having a force sensitive person randomly pop up is normal in the universe. Anakin, Yoda, all the Jedi of the prequels show no hint of having inherited such feature. Is a bit like the psychic powers in 40k, in a way. So, yeah. Is true that is nice that the fact that she is a "random" makes the galaxy bigger. I would argue that they did everything in every other aspect to make the galaxy smaller, but that's about it.
My problem is Rey as a character. She has shown a very fast development as a character, way faster (and not littered with continuous failure and need for help from friends) than Luke. She fixes the falcon, learn the force, speaks with droids and Chewbacca, beats in a swordfight a guy trained by luke skywalker. I see they are doing a continuous subversion of the usual tropes but this comes at the cost of logic.
When I pointed out the Sue-ish character of Rey, back then, people told me that in the next movie we would have seen either that she has Skywalker blood, or that she had her memory cancelled. "wait the next movie, it will make sense". I find such sentence almost insulting, but I waited. What we have now?
I would argue an even worse situation. For the sake of another subversion, we don't really feel the training as something Luke had with Yoda. I did not perceive a true mentoring. I don't see her struggle and fail like I did see with Luke.
Along with the fact that the background of Finn implies a completely different character, these are the things that, along with setting inconsistencies, characters and plot points with no beginning and/or no end, throw me out of the movie. It feels so artificial.
For Rey more than anything else, because I have the feeling that writers in general are unable to write proper modern female characters. Thay are either a damsel in distress or an action heroine too perfect end efficient compared to the male counterparts.
I miss a character like Ripley dearly.
For the life of me, I cannot understand all the praise.
I mean I get the impression that they are rolling with the idea that the force guides your blade and actions. So her amazing abilities is due to her connction to the force and is meant to clue us in that she is Force Sensitive.
HOWEVER, that's not how the force works. Luke was a prodigal knight, as was Anakin, but they still had to train and seek guidance of masters. You can still be a prodigy and have amazing natural talent; but the expectation is still that you need to practice and train. That sentiment comes from real life and I think it makes sense. But with Rey, as you point out, she is depicted as being a master at whatever she does and we're explicitly told she does not need any training. Within a few days she has went from not picking up a lightsaber to besting the big bad and killing several elite Praetorian Guard.
It all leads to the feeling that Rey has done nothing to earn or master these abilities on her own. Without the force she would be nothing.
Alternatively, Rey is just a very talented person? There exist, in real life, people who are exceptionally good at a large number of things, proficient in various fields moreso than most people would ever be.
Given a combination of her upbringing, where she'd have to learn to fight/repair/bluff to survive and maintain a constant mental fortitude to avoid just going mad alone in the desert, and her natural connection to the Force which appears to be very strong indeed, even passively, her level of competence is not hard to believe.
I thought The Force Awakens was decent but they played it too safe. The new one is just filled with many moments where you just throw your hands up in the air. Without being too specific (for now) here are my major gripes:
1. Plot holes, plot holes, plot holes!
2. Ignoring character development hinted at from VII
3. Women treating men like incompetent donkey-caves
4. 3 hour chase scene
5. Superman character
6. Fuel
7. Gravity in Space (those damn bombs)
8. Purple hair bitch in general
9. SJW themes
10. Characters killed off really badly
11. The entire Casino scene
12. Phasma
13. General Hux
14. Rey's lineage
15. Snoke's backstory
16. Knights of Ren
17. Luke was not Luke (Mark even agrees)
18. Titmilk
19. Curvature of lasers in space
20. The Resistance
21. ....I am tired of typing now.
Paradigm wrote: Alternatively, Rey is just a very talented person? There exist, in real life, people who are exceptionally good at a large number of things, proficient in various fields moreso than most people would ever be.
Given a combination of her upbringing, where she'd have to learn to fight/repair/bluff to survive and maintain a constant mental fortitude to avoid just going mad alone in the desert, and her natural connection to the Force which appears to be very strong indeed, even passively, her level of competence is not hard to believe.
See my point above. Even a prodigy who can play the piano still needs to practice and have been taught at some point. This could all easily be resolved by spending a minute to show Rey learning stuff. I am actually a lot more likely to appreciate somebody who works to earn something and succeed than somebody who is just a master at everything.
Rey says she has never piloted a ship in her life and Snoke notes she has never held a lightsaber in her life. Yet is a total master managing to outfly Tie Fighter Pilots and beat the emo.
Reys choice of weapon is a quarterstaff. Why should we assume she has any proficiency with a sword? Much less one made of energy which is meant to be very difficult to master, as shown by Luke practicing on the Falcon.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Have they actually killed Phasma off this time or are they going to pull another Houdini with her?
Might be amusing if she shows up in the next movie with charred silver armour, facial burns and an even more bruised ego.
Judging by how terrible these last 2 films have been with character development - I bet she does come back burned and chared from Ep 8 - only to die quickly in Ep9 with still 0 character development.
Don't get the love for Rogue1. It was watchable but everyone involved lacked charisma and the movie didn't really advance Star Wars lore in any way. Also ending, though very tense, was very contrived.
It didn't need to advance the star wars lore. It was a one off Star Wars Story. It was fast paced, had cool gak blowing up, and a spunky, sarcastic reprogrammed Imperial Droid.
Paradigm wrote: Alternatively, Rey is just a very talented person? There exist, in real life, people who are exceptionally good at a large number of things, proficient in various fields moreso than most people would ever be.
Given a combination of her upbringing, where she'd have to learn to fight/repair/bluff to survive and maintain a constant mental fortitude to avoid just going mad alone in the desert, and her natural connection to the Force which appears to be very strong indeed, even passively, her level of competence is not hard to believe.
Those were Luke, and especially Anakin. And yet they needed proper training. I appreciated that they put a girl as the saber swinging character (but again, I find the implication from their part that Disney kinda created strong female characters insulting). Nonetheless, I am not sure that you send the right message to a girl watching the movie that you are kind of entitled to things instead of needing to work for them. It almost implies that as a woman, you are either born with certain characteristics to have things handled to you, or you don't even try. Wow. So much for the feminism, Disney. Not better in the last movie - I am the only one that got a certain "Twilight" vibe from the Rey-Kylo thing?
Totalwar1402 wrote: You can still be a prodigy and have amazing natural talent; but the expectation is still that you need to practice and train.
Unless you're Luke, of course. Then you go from screwing around in your space-Cessna to flying a military fighter, out-flying trained pilots in combat, evading Vader (himself an elite pilot and powerful force user) better than anyone else in the rebellion, and making a one in a million shot that your veteran squadron leader couldn't make. But of course Luke isn't a Mary Sue...
Voss wrote: Oh, come on. She's an orphaned scavenger on a hell planet who is routinely shortchanged on basic rations to the point that she doesn't even bother to protest. She should be malnourished, half dead, scarred and generally look like she has skin the consistency of shoe leather.
Instead, she's
an engineering prodigy,
a crack pilot in space or atmosphere, doesn't matter, regardless of the lack of aerodynamics of a ship she's never flown before, doing maneuvers experienced pilots can't pull off in maneuverable fighters;
an expert staff fighter,
knows droid system language,
skilled climber,
can kill a man casually with her second ever shot with a pistol,
Effective light saber fighter, despite never touching one
And can learn complex Jedi mind tricks and other force abilities instantly as she needs them
And she's what... Twenty?
Yeah, doesn't fit a Mary Sue in any way at all.
Just like that 'not a bad pilot' farm boy who needed coaching (even through the climatic moment) and formal training and a fairly unsuccessful smuggler.
Luke, an orphaned farmer on a crap planet who bulls eyes wamp rats in his t16 (apparently only about a meter big, a feat other trained pilots think is nigh impossible) a crack pilot and excellent gunner in a space dog fight despite never having left his gak planet. Knows droid language. Kills a bunch of trained storm troopers the first time he uses a gun in an actual fight. Able to hold his own with a light saber despite his only training being MAYBE a week on a ship in hyper space and not particularly intense training. Learns force tricks instantly as he needs them like shooting those proton torpedos into that shaft without a targetting computer.
Anakin, a slave kid who can speak droid language. Builds a protocol droid from scrap at the age of 7 (that droid is fluent in 6 million forms of communication, which implies that anakin is fluent in 6 million forms of communication since he programed that droid).. Ace pilot who takes out an entire trade federation space station on his own. (again age 7). Knows force tricks at age 7 and picks them up as he needs them. Capable of leaping out of vehicles falling hundreds of feet and landing without injury. etc etc...
The entire cast of starwars always, seem to be incapable of being hit by blasters or explosions from any trained elite troopers of a military order that brings the galaxy to it's knees.
That fairly unsuccessful smuggler takes out the galaxys most successful bounty hunter while blind.
A ship gets torn in half, the explosion takes out hundreds of people in a room wearing armor. The 2 people not wearing armor are unharmed. The people standing in litterally every direction around the unarmored unharmed people are all dead.
Again... it's no different from ANY other character in Starwars. They are all ridiculous. If your upset about Rey why are you NOT upset about Luke or Anakin? Finn? Poe? C3-PO? R2-D2? Han Solo? Yoda? Rose? The new splicer guy? Jar Jar Binks who accidentally wipes out a gak ton of droid soldiers without suffering a single scratch and then works his way into being a senator?
The point you are missing is we get every indication that Anaken is special - he is literally the Jesus Jedi born without a father. (Highest mediclorian count ever - even higher than Yoda). It's only natural to expect special things from his offspring. However - luke is a giant screw up until ROtJ. He crashes his Xwing on Dagabah - fails constantly during his training and nearly dies fighting Vader for the first time (and this is with actual training from 2 Jedi masters). By comparison Rey - the first time she fights with a light sabre...draws with Kylo Ren...by every indication Lukes better or equal (with 0 training).
Anaken as boy (the first time he was ever in battle) accidentally flys a fighter into combat and accidentally blows up the droid command ship by pressing random buttons from the cockpit while being crashed in the droid hanger bay. It's a little bit different than flying a freighter (Millennium Falcon) like a stunt fighter through narrow passages that a tie fighter can't make...and making insane maneuvers that Han Solo never made. Even more stupid in Ep 7 shes teaching Han how to fix his ship! Come the F on man. It's almost unwatchable for me a second time. Rey is Huge Mary Sue.
I went in having already read all the spoilers and even watching some of the leaked footage on Reddit. I was divided on even bothering to watch it in the theater until all my friends came back saying they liked it. So gave it a go and. . .
Wow I was surprised how much I liked it. Of course, the writers and directors didn't seem to have any understanding of outer space, but if Tie Fighters can hover in an atmosphere now, I guess I have to accept that 'lighter' ships move faster than 'heavier' ships in a weightless environment. Nevermind that the First Order could have just sent a couple of ships ahead to cut off the Rebels.
But what really blew me away was the force conversations between Rey and Kylo. I thought that was awesome and they were my favorite scenes from the movie. Its going to be an interesting dynamic in the next film. Both Ridley and Driver were great.
There was a lot of stuff I could complain about, but I left the theater a lot happier about the movie than I thought I would. I will be honest about a few things. TFA and TLJ do not really feel like Star Wars to me, just movies with Lightsabers and Tie Fighters (which I don't understand how Tie Fighters are still being used). Even the Prequels, as bad as they are, feel more like Star Wars than this new trilogy.
I also LOVED Rogue One, and that one felt a lot more like Star Wars than TFA and TLJ combined.
As I grew up with Han and Luke as my childhood heroes, I really don't like seeing them used as props to move this new generation of heroes I could careless about forward. I really have no attachment to the new characters. As a matter of fact, they seem like caricatures, especially Poe. Seeing Luke watching the two suns set was touching, but I think it would have been more gratifying for everyone had Luke just had gone with them and beat Kylo in person. I think everyone wanted that. I am sure he shows up as a Force Ghost in 9, since afterall, Carrie Fisher is no longer with us.
Some people seem upset that Rey comes from no one special, but I like that. Thank God there is more to the Force than a single family.
This movie actually makes TFA a better film, which I watched again on Saturday before seeing TLJ. I still think TFA is crap, but I have a little more appreciation for it now.
If that pursuit in space thing was handled better, I would have said the film was even better than it was. Its pretty strange that there are more Star Wars films I dislike than actually like.
No, it's a dead-on characterization of the EU. I read the EU, before the NJO books got to the point of being unreadable garbage. Book after book was a bland and formulaic milking of the cash cow. A new leader for the empire to threaten to bring it back yet again, another trip to Hoth, and every main character from the OT has to get their own sub-plot, no matter how irrelevant it is to the overall story, just to check off the "included Lando" box.
Which is my point. If your fans take a very keen interest in the character you don't slap them in the face.
If you consider "Rey didn't have the origin I wanted her to have" a slap in the face, well, that's your problem.
We knew that they abandoned Rey because we see them fly off. It was not a meaningful revelation that they abandoned her. You actually see the abandonment. Rey never says they had a more complex reason for leaving. She simply says they'll be back. There really isn't a positive spin put on this by her.
Of course there's a positive spin. She clings to the hope that they'll be back. That they didn't just dump her and go off to do some space-drugs before dying alone in a back alley somewhere, that they left out of urgent need and would return for her. And that, when she does find them, that they'll be worth finding. The revelation is that no, that was all just a comforting lie, and she's on her own.
1) Why should I sympathize with Rey for being an ordinary person? Nobody ever says "I like you because you're a perfectly average person". Its a meaningless concept. What we do is we qualify this with their character, where they come from, what they have done and basically do everything to pull that person from obscurity. So basically a hero cannot be an ordinary person by definition. So making Rey ordinary does nothing for her character.
You're missing the point of the hero being ordinary. The whole point of the hero's journey, the mythological archetype that defines Star Wars (at least the OT, before all the cash cow milking), is that the hero starts as an ordinary person and becomes the hero. Luke is the hero of the OT, but when we first meet him he's an anonymous whiny kid living on a farm in the middle of nowhere and dreaming about being relevant someday. Yeah, later on you get his relationship to Vader, but you don't need that to enjoy ANH.
3) Rey hasn't made her own legend. Po blew up Starkiller base. Finn the first Stormtrooper to defect. Luke saves everyone on Krait. Leia leads the Resistance to safety. So far Rey has beaten a wounded emo, beat some red armoured stormtroopers and lifted some rocks. That's two films in which she hasn't done an awful lot. By this point Luke had blown up the Death Star, brought down two ATAT walkers, trained with Master Yoda, survived a fateful encounter with Darth Vader where his hand was chopped off. I am not saying Rey should be like Starkiller from Force Unleashed; but she really hasn't done an awful lot for all the complaining over her being OP. I have no doubt in the third film she will refound the Jedi Order, finally kill the emo and make her blue double bladed lightsaber to finally turn her into Satele Shan from The Old Republic MMO. So as of this film they have not made a legend of Rey.
It's hilarious that you can simultaneously complain about Rey being overpowered and good at everything and point out that she hasn't actually accomplished anything. You can't have it both ways.
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Xenomancers wrote: Even more stupid in Ep 7 shes teaching Han how to fix his ship!
Even more stupid is overlooking the fact that this is explained in the movie, that she was familiar with the part in question (after all, the ship was right next door to her) and it had been added while the ship was out of Han's possession. Of course she'd know that particular detail better than him.
Don't get the love for Rogue1. It was watchable but everyone involved lacked charisma and the movie didn't really advance Star Wars lore in any way. Also ending, though very tense, was very contrived.
It didn't need to advance the star wars lore. It was a one off Star Wars Story. It was fast paced, had cool gak blowing up, and a spunky, sarcastic reprogrammed Imperial Droid.
[
I found the pacing of the first half quite sloppy and schizophrenic, some character motivation lacking. But when the movie takes off, is for real. Barring the fact that I liked the story and I find the characters appropriate for what is essentially a war movie, there is another unspoken element about Rogue One. Differently from TFA and TLJ it does not spit on the OT, but it celebrates it. In R1 you see the empire full force crushing the opposition, Vader is less talky-man and more ruthless kill machine, the victory is paid at a huge cost by literal nobodies. It shows what usually happens when you go against the empire. You die. Troopers will swarm you, special forces will snipe you, AT-AT will crush you. The empire in R1 is not cartoonish. Is dangerous. R1 makes the accomplishments of Luke, Leia, Hand, Antilles, Lando greater, instead of cheapening them. Also, the quipbot has an humor and timing closer to the OT. And dark humor fitting the movie. It releases the tension, in general, without killing the scene. Not always, the first part is not perfect. I am also curious to see what has been reshot, to be honest.
Also, for what I have seen, is better when they do NOT advance the lore. A good story does not need to.
Probably because they are exactly that. I mean, Finn and Poe aren't exactly impressing here...
9. SJW themes
Uh, what? I don't recall anything about that, unless you count "there are characters who aren't white men" as a SJW theme.
They were not impressing because they were not allowed to be. Seriously the whole casino scene could have been avoided if purple hair would have told him something.
The SJW is a little tricky I admit, but it is mostly girl power and no man power. Like the mutiny of the three women. One of them being a guy could have deflated that argument.
Totalwar1402 wrote: You can still be a prodigy and have amazing natural talent; but the expectation is still that you need to practice and train.
Unless you're Luke, of course. Then you go from screwing around in your space-Cessna to flying a military fighter, out-flying trained pilots in combat, evading Vader (himself an elite pilot and powerful force user) better than anyone else in the rebellion, and making a one in a million shot that your veteran squadron leader couldn't make. But of course Luke isn't a Mary Sue...
Peregrine, Luke was taken by the sand people and saved by Kenobi (edit: twice, there is the canteen too, disregarding the death star part that is strike three). Han does not like him on the spot, he has to earn that. He needs a whole new movie to get decent at lightsabers, and loses that duel (ESB). He has way more doubts about his abilities. Leia starts to give orders to him when she is saved, and belittles his height. Even in his moment of triumph, doing the only thing he can do well - pilot, he needs Han to engage Vader. He ends ESB without an hand with his friends rescuing him.
Peregrine, Luke was taken by the sand people and saved by Kenobi. Han does not like him on the spot, he has to earn that. He needs a whole new movie to get decent at lightsabers, and loses that duel. He has way more doubts about his abilities. Leia starts to give orders to him when she is saved, and belittles his height. Even in his moment of triumph, doing the only thing he can do well - pilot, he needs Han to engage Vader.
He ends ESB without an hand with his friends rescuing him.
You cannot say is the same situation I am sorry.
Yes, Luke's character arc is far more interesting than Rey's.
Totalwar1402 wrote: You can still be a prodigy and have amazing natural talent; but the expectation is still that you need to practice and train.
Unless you're Luke, of course. Then you go from screwing around in your space-Cessna to flying a military fighter, out-flying trained pilots in combat, evading Vader (himself an elite pilot and powerful force user) better than anyone else in the rebellion, and making a one in a million shot that your veteran squadron leader couldn't make. But of course Luke isn't a Mary Sue...
He receives force guidance from Obi-wan. That is all that is required to make that shot - he didn't even need to understand how he did it. If Rey was also receiving force guidance form a Jedi masters I don't think anyone would be complaining. She doesn't. She does all of this based on her own insight. It sucks.
Lord Scythican wrote: They were not impressing because they were not allowed to be. Seriously the whole casino scene could have been avoided if purple hair would have told him something.
Yes, you've identified one of the major flaws of the movie: that large parts of it simply disappear if the people involved spend a few minutes talking to each other. But I have no idea why you think this is somehow a men vs. women issue. Purple Hair doesn't keep her secrets to set Poe up as a reckless and incompetent , she does it because if she simply tells everyone what the plan is the movie doesn't gain another half-hour of length and a CGI spectacle chase sequence.
The SJW is a little tricky I admit, but it is mostly girl power and no man power. Like the mutiny of the three women. One of them being a guy could have deflated that argument.
Uh, sure. So by that argument any story in which three men have a mutiny without any women involved it's an example of hate and misogyny? Also, I'm kind of confused about which mutiny you're talking about, when the only mutiny in the story had a man (Poe) as the leader.
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Xenomancers wrote: He receives force guidance from Obi-wan. That is all that is required to make that shot - he didn't even need to understand how he did it. If Rey was also receiving force guidance form a Jedi masters I don't think anyone would be complaining. She doesn't. She does all of this based on her own insight. It sucks.
So your problem is that you're too lacking in imagination to understand that it's the force giving her guidance unless you have an old man's voice explicitly saying the words? Plus you're ignoring the other examples of Luke being a Mary Sue without any guidance from Obi-wan. Where was that voice when he was dogfighting with TIEs, or even getting that x-wing out of the hangar without crashing?
Totalwar1402 wrote: You can still be a prodigy and have amazing natural talent; but the expectation is still that you need to practice and train.
Unless you're Luke, of course. Then you go from screwing around in your space-Cessna to flying a military fighter, out-flying trained pilots in combat, evading Vader (himself an elite pilot and powerful force user) better than anyone else in the rebellion, and making a one in a million shot that your veteran squadron leader couldn't make. But of course Luke isn't a Mary Sue...
Yes but Luke actually flew something and all he did was fly in a straight line. Plus Obi Wan trained him how to focus on the force and use that to guide his shot. Rey has never flown any vehicle and never had any training in connecting with the force. Yet she is able to perform some pretty ridiculous maneuvers through a field of wrecked Star Destroyers without crashing it whilst being shot at by ace Tie pilots.
Its not about power level. I have absolutely no objection to being shamelessly in awe of a female character being powerful. I mentioned the Wonder Woman film earlier as a counterpoint. So Rey is both too successful considering her lack of training and hasn't achieved anything of note. Theres no contradiction here. She's never had anything like when, I dunno, Satele in the Hope Cinematic drops down and wrecks those Sith (as an aside Sith>whatever Snoke/Ren are supposed to be). But shes also not playing the game. A trainee apprentice should go through the motions of actually training and taking advice and shouldn't be able to beat the big bad in the initial fight regardless of circumstances. So although Kylo Ren is an emo, an unimpressive and insipid villain. A joke. She still should not have beaten, him wounded or not. Rey cannot be both a fish out of water and already a master at everything. Either introduce her as a master or have her play the game and go through that learning experience.
Also, she definitely is not the first female force user to have a big role in Star Wars. Loads of characters in the EU and it ignores Ahsoka. Who BTW is a much better and more developed character than Rey. So you can't even say that Rey represents a foot in the door for feminism in Star Wars.
Kaiyanwang wrote: He needs a whole new movie to get decent at lightsabers, and loses that duel (ESB).
No he doesn't. He needs a brief training scene to be good enough with a lightsaber to block blaster shots while blind. Then he magically goes beyond "decent" to "one of the best swordsmen in the galaxy" in ESB, despite being trained by a muppet who can't wield a sword to spar with him.
As for the rest, Rey doesn't magically resolve the entire movie on her own either. Nor am I saying that Rey is a great character, I'm simply pointing out that other characters are guilty of similar "WTF, where did that skill come from" moments in Star Wars without getting the Mary Sue hate.
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Totalwar1402 wrote: Yes but Luke actually flew something and all he did was fly in a straight line.
Uh, no. He dogfights and shoots down TIE fighters, then manages to evade well enough to stay alive against Vader for much longer than anyone else.
Rey has never flown any vehicle and never had any training in connecting with the force.
Uh, what? She's shown flying one in the first scene with her.
@Peregrine "Even more stupid is overlooking the fact that this is explained in the movie, that she was familiar with the part in question (after all, the ship was right next door to her) and it had been added while the ship was out of Han's possession. Of course she'd know that particular detail better than him."
Yep - she an expert mechanic at 19-20 years old because she scavenges scrap for a living. Automatically knows how to make battle repairs to a ship that's been customized to the max. Knows better than the guy that customized the ship himself because he "he forgot". Forgive me but that is weak.
Totalwar1402 wrote: A trainee apprentice should go through the motions of actually training and taking advice and shouldn't be able to beat the big bad in the initial fight regardless of circumstances.
You may notice that she doesn't beat him, she forces a draw. And that failure by Kylo Ren is necessary for his story arc. It reinforces one of his major character themes, his sense of inadequacy compared to Vader and his need to prove himself, and it sets up the opening of TLJ where Snoke crushes his ego and drives him to turn Rey at all costs. If he beats Rey in that fight then his arc doesn't progress properly.
Kaiyanwang wrote: He needs a whole new movie to get decent at lightsabers, and loses that duel (ESB).
No he doesn't. He needs a brief training scene to be good enough with a lightsaber to block blaster shots while blind. Then he magically goes beyond "decent" to "one of the best swordsmen in the galaxy" in ESB, despite being trained by a muppet who can't wield a sword to spar with him.
As for the rest, Rey doesn't magically resolve the entire movie on her own either. Nor am I saying that Rey is a great character, I'm simply pointing out that other characters are guilty of similar "WTF, where did that skill come from" moments in Star Wars without getting the Mary Sue hate.
Sorry but this is not an honest answer. I like your logic and I generally agree with you on most things but here I don't see any. We see Luke training with the saber in ANH but he does not fight with the saber in such movie. He is only initiated to the force and uses it as an intuition power. A bonus to hit, if you wish. The Alliance player uses a CP and Luke (character) gets a +2 to the shot No lightsaber in ANH so that training only counts as basics. In ESB, you are just purposefully dismissing the training of Yoda for the sake of the discussion. But Yoda is a great master and teaches Luke the ways. We don't need to watch Luke train directly with the saber, just gain more insight and knowledge, such connection makes him more powerful. Also, it allows more master-student moments and improves world-building. You can still not like how is represented and want true saber fighting but yoda trained Luke, fullstop.
Compare now what Rey does. Beats a guy trained by Luke Skywalker. This alone is preposterous. You say is a draw - well from a narrative standpoint is still stupid. After that, there is no true master-student relationship. The character has been written by people that imply entitlement. Is horrible, and an horrible role model for a character that was desperately in need to be a good one.
Xenomancers wrote: Yep - she an expert mechanic at 19-20 years old because she scavenges scrap for a living. Automatically knows how to make battle repairs to a ship that's been customized to the max. Knows better than the guy that customized the ship himself because he "he forgot". Forgive me but that is weak.
You don't have to be an expert mechanic to notice something bolted on in a random location, especially if you're used to looking at mechanical stuff and identifying interesting parts. And it's not that Han forgot, it's that the modification happened while Han didn't have the ship. There is no possible way Han could have known about it because it wasn't there the last time he had the ship. Rey has seen it, he hasn't. Rey points out the thing, he doesn't. It makes perfect sense if you pay attention to the movie.
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Kaiyanwang wrote: In ESB, you are just purposefully dismissing the training of Yoda for the sake of the discussion.
Of course I am, because Yoda can not train him in that subject. Yoda can teach him how to use the force, about the dangers of the dark side, etc. But he can't teach Luke the mechanics of sword fighting because of his physical limitations. To get good at fighting with a sword (or any weapon) you need to practice with it, and Yoda can't be a sparring partner. Luke's fight with Vader is almost certainly the first time he has ever used a lightsaber in a duel, and yet he fights an expert swordsman on a competitive level and comes within inches of landing a fatal blow.
Kaiyanwang wrote: He needs a whole new movie to get decent at lightsabers, and loses that duel (ESB).
No he doesn't. He needs a brief training scene to be good enough with a lightsaber to block blaster shots while blind. Then he magically goes beyond "decent" to "one of the best swordsmen in the galaxy" in ESB, despite being trained by a muppet who can't wield a sword to spar with him.
As for the rest, Rey doesn't magically resolve the entire movie on her own either. Nor am I saying that Rey is a great character, I'm simply pointing out that other characters are guilty of similar "WTF, where did that skill come from" moments in Star Wars without getting the Mary Sue hate.
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Totalwar1402 wrote: Yes but Luke actually flew something and all he did was fly in a straight line.
Uh, no. He dogfights and shoots down TIE fighters, then manages to evade well enough to stay alive against Vader for much longer than anyone else.
Rey has never flown any vehicle and never had any training in connecting with the force.
Uh, what? She's shown flying one in the first scene with her.
Just because you can use a pedal bike does not mean you can fly an F-16. If you know how to use a car and all your friends are pilots who join the rebellion I am a bit more reassured. Plus, that connection to the force.
Because the X Wing is a vastly superior space fighter with shields compared to the unshielded Tie fighters used by the Imperial Navy. Also Vader first kills the others and is about to kill Luke before he gets zapped by Han. What Rey does piloting wise is far beyond what Luke or any pilot does in the original trilogy, at one point flying through the inside of a wrecked Super Star Destroyer whilst evading elite First Order pilots in upgraded Tie Fighters. Per Hux, his stuff is supposed to be better than the Clones and Imperial units.
Its not like Rey just barely took off and hyperspaced off whilst the local Third Rate First Order garrison tried to shoot her down. Fine, shes had some familiarity with a ground vehicle and shes a bit smart; fair enough. Instead the writers decided "lets have an insane chase sequence through some wrecked Star Destroyers coz it will look awesome!!!!". Which if its Po Dameron fine. But it should not be Rey doing it. In fact the whole sequence would have made much more sense if Po had been flying and both of the kids were on the guns.
Kaiyanwang wrote: In ESB, you are just purposefully dismissing the training of Yoda for the sake of the discussion.
Of course I am, because Yoda can not train him in that subject. Yoda can teach him how to use the force, about the dangers of the dark side, etc. But he can't teach Luke the mechanics of sword fighting because of his physical limitations. To get good at fighting with a sword (or any weapon) you need to practice with it, and Yoda can't be a sparring partner. Luke's fight with Vader is almost certainly the first time he has ever used a lightsaber in a duel, and yet he fights an expert swordsman on a competitive level and comes within inches of landing a fatal blow.
Peregrine, in that universe is more a sense of connection with the force that Yoda is training, plus physical stuff in combination with telekinesis. We don't need to watch a duel that was impossible to pull with the special effect of the time. When Lucas had the chance, he made Yoda a warrior (it kinda ruined his mystique, but that is another matter entirely). Sorry but your point does not hold water. Yoda trained Luke, regardless how much you agree with the methods, and the limitations put by its character and the special effects available in 1980. None trained Rey on a believable extent. And all my other points stand - Luke got in trouble way more and had to be saved waaay more in his journey.
Lord Scythican wrote: They were not impressing because they were not allowed to be. Seriously the whole casino scene could have been avoided if purple hair would have told him something.
Yes, you've identified one of the major flaws of the movie: that large parts of it simply disappear if the people involved spend a few minutes talking to each other. But I have no idea why you think this is somehow a men vs. women issue. Purple Hair doesn't keep her secrets to set Poe up as a reckless and incompetent , she does it because if she simply tells everyone what the plan is the movie doesn't gain another half-hour of length and a CGI spectacle chase sequence.
The SJW is a little tricky I admit, but it is mostly girl power and no man power. Like the mutiny of the three women. One of them being a guy could have deflated that argument.
Uh, sure. So by that argument any story in which three men have a mutiny without any women involved it's an example of hate and misogyny? Also, I'm kind of confused about which mutiny you're talking about, when the only mutiny in the story had a man (Poe) as the leader.
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Xenomancers wrote: He receives force guidance from Obi-wan. That is all that is required to make that shot - he didn't even need to understand how he did it. If Rey was also receiving force guidance form a Jedi masters I don't think anyone would be complaining. She doesn't. She does all of this based on her own insight. It sucks.
So your problem is that you're too lacking in imagination to understand that it's the force giving her guidance unless you have an old man's voice explicitly saying the words? Plus you're ignoring the other examples of Luke being a Mary Sue without any guidance from Obi-wan. Where was that voice when he was dogfighting with TIEs, or even getting that x-wing out of the hangar without crashing?
Yeah you totally missed it all. Don't worry about it. You got good things happening for you.
You mean the fight where Vader isn't after Luke's head because he wants him to join him? The fight he wins pretty easily and ends up just tossing crap at Luke?
The duel at the end of esb was anything but competitive.
Totalwar1402 wrote: Fine, shes had some familiarity with a ground vehicle and shes a bit smart; fair enough. Instead the writers decided "lets have an insane chase sequence through some wrecked Star Destroyers coz it will look awesome!!!!". Which if its Po Dameron fine. But it should not be Rey doing it. In fact the whole sequence would have made much more sense if Po had been flying and both of the kids were on the guns.
I chalked it up to "self Force discovery", she's been taping into it her whole life, even though she doesn't know what IT is.
In The Last Jedi,
Spoiler:
she evens says to Luke (badly paraphrased) "I have something inside me, but I don't know what it is!"
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welshhoppo wrote: You mean the fight where Vader isn't after Luke's head because he wants him to join him? The fight he wins pretty easily and ends up just tossing crap at Luke?
The duel at the end of esb was anything but competitive.
Yeah, Vader wanted Luke alive. He was pulling his punches.
Xenomancers wrote: Yep - she an expert mechanic at 19-20 years old because she scavenges scrap for a living. Automatically knows how to make battle repairs to a ship that's been customized to the max. Knows better than the guy that customized the ship himself because he "he forgot". Forgive me but that is weak.
You don't have to be an expert mechanic to notice something bolted on in a random location, especially if you're used to looking at mechanical stuff and identifying interesting parts. And it's not that Han forgot, it's that the modification happened while Han didn't have the ship. There is no possible way Han could have known about it because it wasn't there the last time he had the ship. Rey has seen it, he hasn't. Rey points out the thing, he doesn't. It makes perfect sense if you pay attention to the movie.
I guess I missed the part where modifications were made to the falcon that Han was not aware of and never mentioned. I guess I should have better imagination when it comes to this stuff. Maybe I was mislead by the fact that Rey describes the ship as a piece of junk that hasn't flown in years and the fact that she never said she worked on it.
Baring those thing. In the originals we see Han making repairs to the falcon...the ship is always breaking and he struggles to fix it. Rey fixing a problem in 8 seconds it probably would have required Han much longer to figure out in the original series - it just kills it for me. Can't care less if you come up with some made up explanation as to why she can fix the Falcon better than Han solo (the guy that practically built the thing) it kills the magic for me that Rey is so much better at everything our previous heros were - just because of SJW reasons.
Totalwar1402 wrote: A trainee apprentice should go through the motions of actually training and taking advice and shouldn't be able to beat the big bad in the initial fight regardless of circumstances.
You may notice that she doesn't beat him, she forces a draw. And that failure by Kylo Ren is necessary for his story arc. It reinforces one of his major character themes, his sense of inadequacy compared to Vader and his need to prove himself, and it sets up the opening of TLJ where Snoke crushes his ego and drives him to turn Rey at all costs. If he beats Rey in that fight then his arc doesn't progress properly.
She does beat him. He is on the ground with a lightsaber wound on his face and shes ready to "DO IT" when the ground splits between the two of them.
Well he is extremely inadequate if he can't beat somebody who has never held a lightsaber in their life. Can you imagine if a master Samurai gets beat by some random who has never held a sword and who was struggling with two hired thugs earlier in the movie....My reaction to Snoke mocking him was that I thought it was hilarious. I had no sympathy for this pathetic and weak man at all. That's a great setup if the point he is meant to be a loser I laugh at; but with him the Supreme Leader now I get impression we are actually meant to take him seriously?
What should have happened is that he failed to break and capture Rey despite being this dark side prodigy. You could have exactly the same reaction and feelings expressed. It would be a failure deep enough to wound him and anger Snoke but not enough to demean his threat as a villain. Without having Rey all but throw Ren over her knee and spank him.
TFA - if you listen to the dialogue... wrote:
Finn - We'll need a pilot!
Rey - We've got one!
So please, explain to me this confusion that she'd never flown anything before ever except her bike thing?
She has never left Jakku. She also mournfully looks up at the ships as they leave the planet. I would take that to mean she has never been in a spaceship since that would involve leaving Jakku.
So please, explain to me this confusion that she'd never flown anything before ever except her bike thing?
I'm confused about her opportunities. Granted, in the Star Wars universe, space cessna's are just lying about. However, she was a dirt poor junker on a dirt poor planet. I doubt she was enrolled in a pilot vocational training in high school.
Totalwar1402 wrote: Fine, shes had some familiarity with a ground vehicle and shes a bit smart; fair enough. Instead the writers decided "lets have an insane chase sequence through some wrecked Star Destroyers coz it will look awesome!!!!". Which if its Po Dameron fine. But it should not be Rey doing it. In fact the whole sequence would have made much more sense if Po had been flying and both of the kids were on the guns.
I chalked it up to "self Force discovery", she's been taping into it her whole life, even though she doesn't know what IT is.
In The Last Jedi,
Spoiler:
she evens says to Luke (badly paraphrased) "I have something inside me, but I don't know what it is!"
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welshhoppo wrote: You mean the fight where Vader isn't after Luke's head because he wants him to join him? The fight he wins pretty easily and ends up just tossing crap at Luke?
The duel at the end of esb was anything but competitive.
Yeah, Vader wanted Luke alive. He was pulling his punches.
This isn't the Wheel of Time, Rey is not a Ta'Vren.
Yes this statement confirms Rey is force sensitive. Water, wet. Being force sensitive opens the door to these abilities, any display of power should be minimal until your skills have been tempered by training and practice. My take on this is that its basically like an old Samurai or martial arts film, you must learn at the feet of the wise master and learn how to use chopsticks before you can do cool stuff. Think Killbill where she goes to meet the wise master and learn all the martial arts. We know she is an awesome assassin but she goes there to learn and improve herself. Same principle applies to Rey in Star Wars.
They should have refrained from being OTT with her abilities and be keen to show that she is training and qualify why she is able to do certain things.
They should have refrained from being OTT with her abilities and be keen to show that she is training and qualify why she is able to do certain things.
I get that thought. I totally do. She pulled some incredible stunts in a vehicle she most likely had never flown or even ridden in before.
So please, explain to me this confusion that she'd never flown anything before ever except her bike thing?
I'm confused about her opportunities. Granted, in the Star Wars universe, space cessna's are just lying about. However, she was a dirt poor junker on a dirt poor planet. I doubt she was enrolled in a pilot vocational training in high school.
Do we need to know how, or just accept that at that point she was an experienced pilot? Because she was.
They should have refrained from being OTT with her abilities and be keen to show that she is training and qualify why she is able to do certain things.
I get that thought. I totally do. She pulled some incredible stunts in a vehicle she most likely had never flown or even ridden in before.
But it was fething cool.
Yes but surely its more rewarding to build up to those moments and rationalize them within the story? You shouldn't have level 1 characters doing level 20 stuff. I mean Po Dameron is supposed to be the ace pilot yet his flying later on isn't really more impressive than what Rey pulls off in that scene. Theres no room for growth or development. Theres no sense of something having been earned. It doesn't feel like a couple of fish out of water kids outfoxing the Third Rate First Order. It looked like Han pulling off some insane maneuvers that no living human could possibly achieve. You can't have your characters be both superhuman for the sake of spectacle and be green "ordinary people".
She also shows an intimate knowledge of the Falcon's inner workings.
Yes but HOW
Oh stop being deliberately obtuse.
Deliberately obtuse? Because the actions of a character make no sense with her background, to the point that before the current movie people inferred a loss of memory? Are you for real?
So please, explain to me this confusion that she'd never flown anything before ever except her bike thing?
I'm confused about her opportunities. Granted, in the Star Wars universe, space cessna's are just lying about. However, she was a dirt poor junker on a dirt poor planet. I doubt she was enrolled in a pilot vocational training in high school.
Do we need to know how, or just accept that at that point she was an experienced pilot? Because she was.
Being a pilot means you can maybe fly an unfamiliar space ship off the ground, avoid being shot at and fire off the hyperdrive. Not cartwheel through the desert, loop through the interior of a Star Destroyer whilst being shot at and come out on top. That's ridiculous unless you establish that Rey is a superlative pilot and in the film after she does it she expresses surprise and amazement that she did it stating shes never flown anything like the Falcon. I understand this is a "subtle" hint that shes Force Sensitive but its always this issue over the degree. Should Rey really be a better pilot than Po Dameron because she is an untrained force sensitive? I would maintain no. Again, the writers went with "rule of cool" and basically did not care how ridiculous it would be. Rather than have something like Han leaving Tatooine they went for cartwheeling inside wrecked Super Star Destroyers.
Unkar Plutt is the owner of the Falcon at the time of TFA.
Rey was therefore the cabin boy equivalent for the Falcon hence she knows all about it, and mechanics.
Duh.
And he let her fly around during the weekend I guess.
I find your dismissing attitude kinda ironic.
Look, you see what Kronk wrote? "I see that but I don't care, is cool". Fine with that. I am not the suspension of disbelief police.
But you cannot call people that point out weird stuff in a character or plot obtuse. You are the one willingly ignoring the gaping holes here.
Unkar Plutt is the owner of the Falcon at the time of TFA.
Rey was therefore the cabin boy equivalent for the Falcon hence she knows all about it, and mechanics.
Duh.
Yeah, that makes perfect sense to me. And in terms of development, I'd say the story of Rey learning what it means to be a Jedi (or not) is more compelling than Rey learning how to fly a ship or swing a saber. Poe having to face the responsibility of leading a rebellion is likewise a much more interesting arc than 'man who is good at flying things gets better at flying things.'
No one ever asked how Han became such a good pilot, or how Obi-wan became one of the great Jedi swordsmen, or Leia became a rebel leader. We don't need to see every aspect of a character's story from birth to death, and I'm perfectly happy to accept that if a film shows Character X doing Cool Thing Y, there's a logical reason why they are able to do that thing.
Paradigm wrote: Poe having to face the responsibility of leading a rebellion is likewise a much more interesting arc than 'man who is good at flying things gets better at flying things.'
and I'm perfectly happy to accept that if a film shows Character X doing Cool Thing Y, there's a logical reason why they are able to do that thing.
I actually agree with both of these thoughts. I liked to see the (albeit limited) character growth of Poe into what will most likely be a/the Resistance's key general in Episode IX.
I'm fine with "Rey tapped into the force and could fly the Falcon through a wrecked ship because it fething looked cool!"
Just don't tell me slave girl got to take the Aluminum Falcon out for a spin on the weekends. Pull the other one. It's got bells on it!
Luke makes several boasts about flying. When Han asks him who would fly the ship, he claims to be a pretty good pilot. He mentions bulls-eyeing womp rats in his airspeeder. Leading up to the battle of Yavin, we have several statements that he is a pilot, even if it's implied that he may not be as good as he thinks. He is then paired up with an extremely experienced Astromech droid, who is presumably able to help walk him through stuff like the ships controls. During the battle, he shoots a TIE fighter off of his wingman, and has to have another pilot shoot one off his tail, taking minor damage in the process. Eventually, almost all other fighters are shot down and he leads the attack on the trench. His wingmen are shot down, and Vader is about to shoot him down. Then, he is saved by Han's dramatic re-entry getting the fighters off of his tail. During the trench run, he managed to avoid the fatal shot, but took damage and lost R2. Vader takes a moment to note that Luke is strong with the force. Luke then uses the force to pull off an impossible shot, with Obi-Wan tutoring him. He then lands his fighter, but let's assume that its landing sequence is similar to his airspeeder.
So, Luke proves to be a reasonably impressive pilot, but is sill reliant on friends and wingmen to survive. His displays of the force are noted, and only manage to allow one impossible shot, and delay the inevitable against Vader. The most Bantha poodoo thing about this is the fact that, as the new guy, he was allowed to lead the trench run.
In contrast, Rey gets one line "I'm a pilot" about 30 seconds before jumping in the Falcon. She also refers to it as "Garbage", implying that she may never have actually flown it before. She then proceeds to pull off some of the best piloting in the entire series, out-flying Lando by taking the Falcon through a Super Star Destroyer without a scratch. She then shoots down a TIE Fighter with a broken gun. This is also before we (or she) are given any indications that she is force-sensitive.
So whereas Luke has several hints dropped to justify him being above-average, Rey goes straight from zero to "OMG CHECK OUT OUR SPECIAL EFFECTS BUDGET", without any real concern for stuff like "Character Arcs" or "Logic".
Also, as for the SJW thing... judging by the fact that a lot of reviews I've read cited "Diversity" or "Strong Female Characters", linking SJW's to this movie's generally positive critical reception might not just be the usual "crazy guy on the internet" reaction. I rather suspect that no-one wanting to badmouth Carrie Fischer's last movie may also play a role,
I'm not sure that Rey flying the Falcon makes her a 'better' pilot than Poe. Poe effortlessly decimates a TIE squadron in the space of seconds and zips into Starkiller Base to blow it up in what looked like a very confined chamber to steer an X-Wing in, and that's without getting into his stunt at the beginning of The Last Jedi. Rey took the Millennium Falcon, a ship that we can assume to be pretty maneuverable given all the tight confines it's flown in before (and not just with Han at the controls!), through a series of narrow spaces that she was extremely familiar with in order to force her pursuers to crash (something we've seen happen to countless TIE pilots before, it's their second-leading cause of death behind the Falcon's lasers). She's a good pilot, something which I always put down to her experience with her speeder and maybe Space Cessnas (hey, we already know that directly translates to spacecraft skills!) along with her being particularly strong with the Force, but I honestly didn't see her doing anything that would knock Poe off his position as Best Resistance Pilot.
Oh, right, the actual thread topic!
I liked the movie. Quite a bit.
It's up there at the top with Empire Strikes Back and Rogue One, as far as I'm concerned.
Unkar Plutt is the owner of the Falcon at the time of TFA.
Rey was therefore the cabin boy equivalent for the Falcon hence she knows all about it, and mechanics.
Duh.
Yeah, that makes perfect sense to me. And in terms of development, I'd say the story of Rey learning what it means to be a Jedi (or not) is more compelling than Rey learning how to fly a ship or swing a saber. Poe having to face the responsibility of leading a rebellion is likewise a much more interesting arc than 'man who is good at flying things gets better at flying things.'
No one ever asked how Han became such a good pilot, or how Obi-wan became one of the great Jedi swordsmen, or Leia became a rebel leader. We don't need to see every aspect of a character's story from birth to death, and I'm perfectly happy to accept that if a film shows Character X doing Cool Thing Y, there's a logical reason why they are able to do that thing.
Because Poe, Obi Wan, Han start off in that position. Those aspects of their character are static so people have no objection to them as we know their arc will not center on that.
People very rightly recognize that Rey is training to be a Jedi, has never held a lightsaber before, does not use the force and as such quite naturally expect her to have to learn these things. If they want her to be like your Jedi Knight TOR MMO character who already knows the basics but has some life lesson to learn then she should just start off as a Jedi in training. But when Disney simply handwaves her skill with a lightsaber and use of force powers it is extremely jarring. Again this is the rule of cool. They wanted a big lightsaber battle in TFA and in the LJ so they push Rey into that role instead of having her train or do other stuff like Luke did until he fought Vader and lost. Plus, the original trilogy made much greater use of timeskips since several years or months pass between the films. Whereas so far the sequel trilogy looks to take place over a few days. It means we as the audience are prevented from imagining that Rey has been practicing in her spare time.
Does she learn to be a Jedi in the LJ? All she does is berate Luke for sitting on the island, get told the force is everywhere, then it all becomes about her trying to redeem Mr Emo. So she has a good 30 seconds of training from Luke. Again, Disney seems to just have a disdain for the notion that Rey had to actually do any work to achieve what she has.
Unkar Plutt is the owner of the Falcon at the time of TFA.
Rey was therefore the cabin boy equivalent for the Falcon hence she knows all about it, and mechanics.
Duh.
Her understanding of the mechanics can easily be explained away by her having been used by Plutt during his modification of the ship after he obtained it. However knowing how to fly it? No, I highly doubt he'd show his property how to fly his property. Plus, the implication of her being a Cabin Boy would go to imply she was with him when he took the ship places for what ever he needed to take it places for. Just bombing around Jakku to met junk dealers? Maybe but thats kinda a poor use of the Falcon. He clearly never took her off world ("...never knew there was this much green in the Galaxy"), because Im pretty sure she said she'd never left, and because of her self delusions about her family coming back (turning down Han's Job offer) I doubt she'd of even wanted to leave for Plutt's milk runs.
Spinner wrote: I'm not sure that Rey flying the Falcon makes her a 'better' pilot than Poe. Poe effortlessly decimates a TIE squadron in the space of seconds and zips into Starkiller Base to blow it up in what looked like a very confined chamber to steer an X-Wing in, and that's without getting into his stunt at the beginning of The Last Jedi. Rey took the Millennium Falcon, a ship that we can assume to be pretty maneuverable given all the tight confines it's flown in before (and not just with Han at the controls!), through a series of narrow spaces that she was extremely familiar with in order to force her pursuers to crash (something we've seen happen to countless TIE pilots before, it's their second-leading cause of death behind the Falcon's lasers), and she still accidentally knocks bits off of her ship. She's a good pilot, something which I always put down to her experience with her speeder and maybe Space Cessnas (hey, we already know that directly translates to spacecraft skills!) along with her being particularly strong with the Force, but I honestly didn't see her doing anything that would knock Poe off his position as Best Resistance Pilot.
Oh, right, the actual thread topic!
I liked the movie. Quite a bit.
It's up there at the top with Empire Strikes Back and Rogue One, as far as I'm concerned.
Poe is in an upgraded X Wing. Rey is in a 50 year old ship. She is using a Lancaster to evade an F-16. Also the guns on the Falcon were broke. You give Rey the same X Wing she'd be better given how she flew.
When Po flies around Starkiller base what he does is no more extreme or impressive than Rey flying through the inside of a wrecked Super Star Destroyer.
Rey's in the Falcon. It's the fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy. Everyone calls it garbage, but given the stuff you can pull off in it, I wouldn't be surprised if that big glowing blue strip is a giant khyber crystal connecting the ship itself to the Force. You know the Falcon is going to get into some kind of tight-confines chase and have to turn sideways at some point, and it's going to make that turn on a dime.
Poe put some turbo boosters on his X-Wing.
Again, they're both skilled pilots, but one of them is in the inexplicably best ship in the galaxy, and the other one is in an X-Wing, a serviceable dogfighter that we've seen go down in flames a dozen times before. I'm not saying that what Rey did was mundane, far from it, but I certainly don't think it makes her a better pilot than the guy slapping TIEs out of the air like it's an afterthought.
lonestarr777 wrote: Wow. I poked my head in here to take a look after seeing the movie this weekend and after reading just one page, Nope.
Have fun being bitter about something good.
Hahah, right? I came out of that movie feeling like I was eight years old again and wanting to be a Jedi when I grew up, came home, checked the Internet...sighed...
Vaktathi wrote: A bigger question on the fuel stuff and chase...
When did fuel consumption become such an issue for ships in the Star Wars universe? If large ships have things akin to nuclear reactors or things even more advanced, why is fuel a concern? Modern nuclear reactors can go years or decades without refueling, fuel never seemed to be an issue for large vessels in previous films. That whole thing felt really hamfisted. The part with the First Order fighters having to be recalled for being out of range was also odd, why can't they operate beyond a few dozen kilometers from their home base ships? They're literally in quite short visual range of their home vessels before being recalled. Likewise, when the small rebel ship group is being chased, seemingly nothing but the gargantuan ship is firing, and only with its mega guns or whatever...everything else looks like it'd be within conventional modern cannon range...in space...why didn't they ever open fire?
You're making the mistake of applying common sense and logic to these films.
There is also the question of why nobody is building empty ships and getting them to go kamikaze more often, after the vice-admiral's sacrifice that took out the dreadnought...
The use of fire ships in naval warfare history is well documented.
There is also the question of why nobody is building empty ships and getting them to go kamikaze more often, after the vice-admiral's sacrifice that took out the dreadnought...
The use of fire ships in naval warfare history is well documented.
Or why didn't the First Order just empty one of their own smaller Faster-Than-Light capable ships and fire it at the remaining ship.
They had to leave all their supplies on-planet while evacuating, didn't they? I assumed that included all the spare fuel they'd normally be able to use.
As for the Holdo My Beer maneuver, maybe a smaller ship wouldn't have anything near that kind of effect, and kamikaze-ing large ships is just prohibitively expensive and simple enough to outmaneuver if you realize what they're about to do? This isn't the first time that rebel commanders have slammed their ships into other ships as a desperate last move, it was good to see them upholding the tradition.
Or why didn't the First Order just empty one of their own smaller Faster-Than-Light capable ships and fire it at the remaining ship.
No reason to. The Resistance fleet was trapped and horrifically outgunned. Why bother wasting one of your own ships when you can just cruise along and shoot at them?
Do they even have vessels with hyperdrives smaller than a Star Destroyer? Pretty sure TIEs aren't FTL-capable...maybe the shuttles?
Peregrine wrote: To get good at fighting with a sword (or any weapon) you need to practice with it...
This is false.
I am living proof.
In college I took Fencing/Saber Fighting. With no experience I defeated my entire class and my Olympian (as in, winning medalist against other world champions) instructor with little to no effort. My professor begged me to join the school team because he thought I could be a champion. But I'm lazy and didn't feel like showing up to the arena at 7am on the extreme far side of campus.
If a slow, 350lb party animal can take on a trained master then a farm boy with mystical powers can take on a samurai sorcerer.
There is also the question of why nobody is building empty ships and getting them to go kamikaze more often, after the vice-admiral's sacrifice that took out the dreadnought...
The use of fire ships in naval warfare history is well documented.
Or why didn't the First Order just empty one of their own smaller Faster-Than-Light capable ships and fire it at the remaining ship.
Or that as well. Kronk, you're always one step ahead.
There's also the question of story arcs. Spoilers
We knew at the end of Empire that Solo would have to be rescued in ROTJ and of course, Palpatine would emerge in all his glory.
After Episode II, we knew that Anakin would turn and Yoda would escape etc etc
But what's the story arc for IX? The resistance are on the run, but that's nothing new.
Ben has to be stopped, but again, we knew that from the first minute of TFA. The First order's defeat is an anti-climax compared to the end of The Empire.
I honestly don't see how this story ends on an entertaining note. I'm feeling no heat from it.
Hahah, right? I came out of that movie feeling like I was eight years old again and wanting to be a Jedi when I grew up, came home, checked the Internet...sighed...
But that's my issue. It does not look like something well crafted, in story, dialogue and characters, like the stuff of when I was 10 y.o. Visuals are another matter and I generally always appreciate the arts and crafts of the creative people. Also the movie has a couple of scenes with a superb, really superb use of color.
Reread what I wrote above, the biggest issue beyond illogical parts is the pandering to the TV-series crowd instead of building a linear, archetypal story.
Starwars isn't sci fi. It's future fantasy (despite being set a long time ago).
You cannot nit pic their technology because their tech doesn't work on any real world level. Because it's not science. It's fantasy. Light sabers work because they are essentially magic items.
X wings can lift strait into the air and do all kind of crazy maneuvers and turns in space despite their only thrust being 4 engines that point strait back.
How the feth would a tie fighter turn? In atmosphere?
Again, it's fantasy. Not Sci Fi. Don't try to figure out fuel consumption or what would happen with their ships.
Lance845 wrote: Starwars isn't sci fi. It's future fantasy (despite being set a long time ago).
You cannot nit pic their technology because their tech doesn't work on any real world level. Because it's not science. It's fantasy. Light sabers work because they are essentially magic items.
X wings can lift strait into the air and do all kind of crazy maneuvers and turns in space despite their only thrust being 4 engines that point strait back.
How the feth would a tie fighter turn? In atmosphere?
Again, it's fantasy. Not Sci Fi. Don't try to figure out fuel consumption or what would happen with their ships.
So, in Lord of the Rings, it would be perfectly acceptable that Hobbits suddenly start to shoot lightning from their pee pee. It's fantasy, right? Even fantastic universes should have coherence in world-building. Is essential for immersion. What you said is perfectly valid to answer to any critique that asks "realistic" space battles instead of dogfighting. That would be boring. But once the rules are established the author has to stick to those or the immersion is broken.
Lance845 wrote: Starwars isn't sci fi. It's future fantasy (despite being set a long time ago).
You cannot nit pic their technology because their tech doesn't work on any real world level. Because it's not science. It's fantasy. Light sabers work because they are essentially magic items.
X wings can lift strait into the air and do all kind of crazy maneuvers and turns in space despite their only thrust being 4 engines that point strait back.
How the feth would a tie fighter turn? In atmosphere?
Again, it's fantasy. Not Sci Fi. Don't try to figure out fuel consumption or what would happen with their ships.
But if you follow the logic that anything can happen, and technology or magic can explain everything, then anybody can come along, click their fingers and turn everybody into Banthas or something.
There is no internal logic or consistency in most of these films. These films have chosen to follow the laws of Newtonian/Quantum physics or whatever. They should stick to those 'guidelines.'
It's perfectly acceptable for people to question fuel consumption, especially when it has never been an issue before. It smacks of a convenient plot device solver thing.
Peregrine wrote: To get good at fighting with a sword (or any weapon) you need to practice with it...
This is false.
I am living proof.
In college I took Fencing/Saber Fighting. With no experience I defeated my entire class and my Olympian (as in, winning medalist against other world champions) instructor with little to no effort. My professor begged me to join the school team because he thought I could be a champion. But I'm lazy and didn't feel like showing up to the arena at 7am on the extreme far side of campus.
If a slow, 350lb party animal can take on a trained master then a farm boy with mystical powers can take on a samurai sorcerer.
Well, that's because it is a convenient plot device; so is the droid's escape pod not being blown up on its way down to Tatooine. So is Hoth having a cannon capable of temporarily crippling a Star Destroyer with one hit. So is the Empire deciding to locate the Death Star's shield generator on an easily-infiltratable forest moon.
I'd say that the lack of fuel had a much better in-movie explanation than all of those. They didn't have time to load spare fuel, they out-and-out said they were leaving behind supplies. The Dreadnought blew it all up.
Reread what I wrote above, the biggest issue beyond illogical parts is the pandering to the TV-series crowd instead of building a linear, archetypal story.
What wasn't linear about the story? They had four or five solid main-character-style arcs that began, developed, and resolved during the film.
Spinner wrote: Well, that's because it is a convenient plot device; so is the droid's escape pod not being blown up on its way down to Tatooine. So is Hoth having a cannon capable of temporarily crippling a Star Destroyer with one hit. So is the Empire deciding to locate the Death Star's shield generator on an easily-infiltratable forest moon.
I'd say that the lack of fuel had a much better in-movie explanation than all of those. They didn't have time to load spare fuel, they out-and-out said they were leaving behind supplies. The Dreadnought blew it all up.
Reread what I wrote above, the biggest issue beyond illogical parts is the pandering to the TV-series crowd instead of building a linear, archetypal story.
What wasn't linear about the story? They had four or five solid main-character-style arcs that began, developed, and resolved during the film.
1. They though the escape pod had malfunctioned, hence it not being destroyed.
2. The cannon made sense.
3. Wasn't the location part of Palpatine's grand plan for luring them into a trap, hence the location?
It's perfectly acceptable for people to question fuel consumption, especially when it has never been an issue before. It smacks of a convenient plot device solver thing.
Easily answered though; with the FO on the rise and their unofficial support from the Republic cut off, the Resistance are in a worse state than they were in TFA, and in a worse state than we ever saw The Rebellion, who by and large get stronger throughout the OT each film.Just because we've never seen anyone run out of gas before doesn't mean it's a complete non-issue.
After all, if no one ever needs fuel, what is Cloud City mining all that Tibanna gas for?
It's perfectly acceptable for people to question fuel consumption, especially when it has never been an issue before. It smacks of a convenient plot device solver thing.
Easily answered though; with the FO on the rise and their unofficial support from the Republic cut off, the Resistance are in a worse state than they were in TFA, and in a worse state than we ever saw The Rebellion, who by and large get stronger throughout the OT each film.Just because we've never seen anyone run out of gas before doesn't mean it's a complete non-issue.
After all, if no one ever needs fuel, what is Cloud City mining all that Tibanna gas for?
It's Lando running it. Tibanna gas was probably a cover for that casino heist he was planning...or something
To sum up. I though the film was a sack of gak. That's a valid opinion.
Other people enjoyed the film. That's a valid opinion.
Spinner wrote: Well, that's because it is a convenient plot device; so is the droid's escape pod not being blown up on its way down to Tatooine. So is Hoth having a cannon capable of temporarily crippling a Star Destroyer with one hit. So is the Empire deciding to locate the Death Star's shield generator on an easily-infiltratable forest moon.
I'd say that the lack of fuel had a much better in-movie explanation than all of those. They didn't have time to load spare fuel, they out-and-out said they were leaving behind supplies. The Dreadnought blew it all up.
Reread what I wrote above, the biggest issue beyond illogical parts is the pandering to the TV-series crowd instead of building a linear, archetypal story.
What wasn't linear about the story? They had four or five solid main-character-style arcs that began, developed, and resolved during the film.
1. They though the escape pod had malfunctioned, hence it not being destroyed.
2. The cannon made sense.
3. Wasn't the location part of Palpatine's grand plan for luring them into a trap, hence the location?
Those things make sense.
I'm not saying there's no explanation for these things, but you can easily 'poke holes' in them the way people are trying to do with the fuel consumption thing. The Empire is well aware that droids exist, and they're actively looking for plans, not a person - just because there's no life forms aboard the pod doesn't mean that it wasn't fired on purpose, and the gunners should know that. If the cannon made sense, full stop, how come the rebels don't use them all the time? Palpatine's plan was overcomplex and led to his own downfall; he had built in an entirely unnecessary weakness.
Of course all of these have a simple answer. The gunners were lazy or just going through the motions, or maybe they wanted to recover the plans instead of destroying them. Maybe the ion cannon is too unwieldy or power-consumptive to use on board a ship, or maybe it only has enough ammunition for a couple shots. Palpatine's hubris and pride in his own cleverness is a deliberate character flaw. It's easy to arrive at these conclusions, but it does take a little bit of thinking or assumption, which is something that people somehow aren't willing to do for the new movies.
Which is doubly frustrating, because they literally showed what happened to all the fuel.
It's perfectly acceptable for people to question fuel consumption, especially when it has never been an issue before. It smacks of a convenient plot device solver thing.
Easily answered though; with the FO on the rise and their unofficial support from the Republic cut off, the Resistance are in a worse state than they were in TFA, and in a worse state than we ever saw The Rebellion, who by and large get stronger throughout the OT each film.Just because we've never seen anyone run out of gas before doesn't mean it's a complete non-issue.
After all, if no one ever needs fuel, what is Cloud City mining all that Tibanna gas for?
I don't know, they were pretty beaten up after the battle of Hoth and then ran away with their tails between their legs.
So so far we have a copy of a new hope (yuppie young space terrorist blows up government installation, causing thousands of deaths. And a copy of ESB (terrorist cell is brought to their knees after a military defeat)
What's the odds of Episode 9 being yuppie young space terrorist destroys another government installation?
What wasn't linear about the story? They had four or five solid main-character-style arcs that began, developed, and resolved during the film.
They are not even the same characters as TFA or the OT. This is the TRUE attack of the clones.
How do you mean? Finn's still loyal and a little naive, Poe's showing another side of his cocky ace pilot persona, Rey's still desperate to learn about herself and the ways of the Jedi, Kylo Ren's still angsty and furious at the world, Hux is still a scumbag, Leia's still the heart of the Resistance/Rebellion, and Luke's an idealist - if a broken idealist for much of the movie - who rises to become a legend after being told he's taken the wrong things from his lessons.
Lance845 wrote: Starwars isn't sci fi. It's future fantasy (despite being set a long time ago).
You cannot nit pic their technology because their tech doesn't work on any real world level. Because it's not science. It's fantasy. Light sabers work because they are essentially magic items.
X wings can lift strait into the air and do all kind of crazy maneuvers and turns in space despite their only thrust being 4 engines that point strait back.
How the feth would a tie fighter turn? In atmosphere?
Again, it's fantasy. Not Sci Fi. Don't try to figure out fuel consumption or what would happen with their ships.
But if you follow the logic that anything can happen, and technology or magic can explain everything, then anybody can come along, click their fingers and turn everybody into Banthas or something.
There is no internal logic or consistency in most of these films. These films have chosen to follow the laws of Newtonian/Quantum physics or whatever. They should stick to those 'guidelines.'
It's perfectly acceptable for people to question fuel consumption, especially when it has never been an issue before. It smacks of a convenient plot device solver thing.
Every time you have seen the falcan, an x wing, or anything else in it's dock, it has all these large hoses attached to it.
Fuel lines.
It's already established.
I have never seen any person in starwars use a fork. That doesn't mean forks don't exist and it isn't emersion breaking if someone suddenly did have a fork.
Until In TLJ we saw the small book shelf nobody has ever seen a book anywhere in starwars. Is it emersion breaking that suddenly we are suppose to believe people in SW are literate? You have never seen anyone read anything before so whats the deal?
First things first, please remember, I didn't like The Last Jedi.
But anyhows, on the Rey subject. I'm one of those people who likes going back to the primary source, which would be particularly helpful here since many people are arguing one thing over each other.
FINN
We can't outrun them!
Rey POINTS to a parked, four-engine SHIP ahead:
REY
We might in that quad-jumper!
FINN
We need a pilot!
REY
We've got one!
REY (CONT'D)
The garbage'll do!
Finn, Rey and BB-8 enter the ship -- she hits a control and
the door DESCENDS CLOSED as she races to the cockpit:
REY
Gunner position's down there!
FINN
(CLIMBS DOWN)
Y'ever fly this thing?
INT. MILLENNIUM FALCON - COCKPIT - DAY
Rey tosses her staff aside, jumps into the pilot's seat,
frantically flips switches. BB-8 rolls in behind her as the
ENGINES WHINE to life:
REY
No! This ship hasn't been flown in
years!
So, 1) Yes, Rey HAS flown before. (2) *No* she has NOT flown the Falcon. That's not making anyone's argument, feel free to keep arguing. However, you're now arguing from a position of knowledge with the opportunity to argue honestly.
FINN Good shooting! Thanks! I--
Now that was some I don't know! -- I've
flying! How did you flown some ships but I've
do that?! No one never left the planet!
trained you? No one? Your last shot was dead
That was amazing! on. You got him with one
(beat) blast!
You set me up for it! (laughs)
(cocky) It was perfect!
That was pretty good.
Admittedly, the script isn't clear here, but it does suggest, that while Rey has flown before, she hasn't left the planet.
HAN (CONT'D)
Hey! Some moof-milker put a
compressor on the ignition line!
Han moves to the corridor.
INT. MILLENNIUM FALCON - LOUNGE AREA - DAY
REY
Unkar Plutt did. I thought it was a
mistake too, puts too much stress on the hyperdrive
Rey has been on the Millennium Falcon before and has had some experience with the ship.
HAN
Hey, where are you going?
REY
Unkar Plutt installed a fuel pump
too -- if we don't prime that we're
not going anywhere.
HAN
I hate that guy.
Han sits as, Rey hitting buttons
So, more confirmation that Rey was at least present or informed of the various work Unkar Plutt did.
I'm perfectly fine with the the fact that SW ships run off of a fuel of some kind - that is only logical. That is all well and dandy. What's not cool is a chase scene (basically the entire plot of the movie) that any decent First Order commander could have figured out quickly.
or maybe it happend like this
Random tactical annalist officer-
"Admiral - they have faster sub-light engines than us and are able to maintain safe distance from our main battery. Since we can just follow them easily through hyperspace they are effectively trapt. I recommend we send star destroyer 1, 2, and 3 ahead of the fleet through hyperspace and we will have them in a cross fire - they will be utterly destroyed"
Hux-
"I've got a better idea - lets keep wasting ammunition firing these completely awesome looking but ineffectual arching in space laser cannons. This will give the resistance more time to mount a completely useless fail-plan based off a grease monkies suggestion because we all know how this is ending...they are just going to hyperdrive that Mon Cal straight into us destroying our entire fleet...we basically can't win this...suicide hyper-drive too strong. Good thing they never tried this on our deathstars..."
I don't really mind Poe not being told. He had just proven himself to be reckless and prone to insubordination, and while his plan with the dreadnought paid off it came with a very heavy cost. Commanders also can't simply ignore someone ignoring their orders, it's not how ranks work.
Poe had no right at all to demand knowledge of his officers' plans. If you, in real life, tried to approach your commander and demand to be told the plans, you would justifiably be given a boot to the rear compartment.
Besides, there was a very real possibility of there being spies on board. The FO had tracked them through hyperspace and while I expected the classic hidden beep beep tracker to be responsible, a spy was also a possibility I considered. In such a situation commanders are understandably loath to share their crucial plans with anyone it is not absolutely necessary to tell.
lonestarr777 wrote: Wow. I poked my head in here to take a look after seeing the movie this weekend and after reading just one page, Nope.
Have fun being bitter about something good.
Hahah, right? I came out of that movie feeling like I was eight years old again and wanting to be a Jedi when I grew up, came home, checked the Internet...sighed...
Same.
I came to this thread Thursday night and said that I liked it while also noting that it had already become a dumpster fire. I check back three days later and yep — sill a dumpster fire.
I really liked this movie and I like more after having slept on it and spending time thinking about it. I'm taking my kids to see it this Thursday and I'll probably catch another solo viewing before Christmas and probably another one after that.
Laura Dern didn't tell Poe her plan because then Poe would have nothing to do.* It's as simple as that.
*Or rather, Poe would be available to have an adventure with Finn and there would be no need for Rose. In that case, we also would not need Laura Dern. Leia would have stayed with the fleet while Finn and Poe went off to find Rey and Luke. That movie would have been significantly better than the one we got.
What wasn't linear about the story? They had four or five solid main-character-style arcs that began, developed, and resolved during the film.
They are not even the same characters as TFA or the OT. This is the TRUE attack of the clones.
How do you mean? Finn's still loyal and a little naive, Poe's showing another side of his cocky ace pilot persona, Rey's still desperate to learn about herself and the ways of the Jedi, Kylo Ren's still angsty and furious at the world, Hux is still a scumbag, Leia's still the heart of the Resistance/Rebellion, and Luke's an idealist - if a broken idealist for much of the movie - who rises to become a legend after being told he's taken the wrong things from his lessons.
Yoda's still a troll, too.
Finn is nowhere near as someone that was an indoctrinated stormtroopers. As I said before, they went for the quipping "DO YOU HAVE A BOYFRIEND" guy when we had a defecting Waffen-SS in space. Poe is suddenly a dill weed because the plot demands it. Is just a different character from the cosmetically similar guy from the last movie. Rey is still a non-character and will never be, at this point. Her motivations are like her struggle - weak and unimportant. You cannot give a crap because nothing in her past or present has given weight or difficulty. She just passes by. Kylo Ren is going full twilight very soon. This is valid for Rey, too. Hux was a sad caricature from the TFA speech, he only got worse from that. Luke is so idealist that considered to murder his nephew in his sleep. Again, because the plot demands it. Like Han Solo, any progress the characters had in the OT is thrown away either for nostalgia or because the plot needs it. The last part as a legend not only throws you outside of the movie, but does not make sense with what we see in the first movie. You forgot Snoke because he was only an Emperor prop put there to elicit nostalgia by J.J. They had no plan, they are just making stuff up like with a TV series and they are right - nobody gives a crap about what I wrote. Everyone is after the epic twist. Suddenly Snoke goes and we have no explanation or hint about his nature whatsoever. As much as we have no idea how an imperial remnant is able to build stuff that shadows the true empire. You forgot Phasma too, because at this point is downright a parody. The only thing that is good for is to highlight how badly written Finn is. Also, along with Rey, and the containment plot in which they put Finn, she shows the hypocrisy of the writers. All this emphasis of females and people of color in SW (but then again, who are Leia and Lando) and all they can write is a vapid sue, an inconsequential pathetic villainess, a guy that is supposed to be a struggling survivor but HEY DO YOU HAVE A BOYFRIEND. Caricatures. And the best part that people swallow this as a sign of open mindness and virtue. Disgusting.
The thing about Snoke is, at this point we know as much about him as we ever knew about Palpatine across the original trilogy. Political leader of The Baddies, strong with the Dark Side, plans to corrupt the hero of the piece, has an apprentice who he is eventually betrayed by. (let's not forget the word Sith isn't used in the entirety of the OT, Darth is just a name, not a rank and Vader is referred to as a Jedi several times)
The difference is, this time, because of the cultural mass around SW, people assumed there must be some secret to his identity that tied it in with the old EU or the new EU or the Old Republic or the prequels... Which is fine, it's always fun to speculate and I indulged in it myself. Same with Rey's lineage. But in both cases, I really don't mind that there was no secret after all (I was convinced Rey was Luke's daughter and Snoke was a Sith Lord from the old Rule of Two days who survived he's apprentice's assassination attempt, but I'm not at all bothered that I was wrong on both counts). I'm happy to let those characters be informed by what we've seen on screen rather than a book or comic or obscure reference.
For those that want it, I'm sure there'll be a book along in the next couple of years that explains exactly what, who and why Snoke is, but the fact remains that any 'secret' to his identity was entirely constructed by the fans, not informed by the previous film.
Paradigm wrote: The thing about Snoke is, at this point we know as much about him as we ever knew about Palpatine across the original trilogy. Political leader of The Baddies, strong with the Dark Side, plans to corrupt the hero of the piece, has an apprentice who he is eventually betrayed by. (let's not forget the word Sith isn't used in the entirety of the OT, Darth is just a name, not a rank and Vader is referred to as a Jedi several times)
The difference is, this time, because of the cultural mass around SW, people assumed there must be some secret to his identity that tied it in with the old EU or the new EU or the Old Republic or the prequels... Which is fine, it's always fun to speculate and I indulged in it myself. Same with Rey's lineage. But in both cases, I really don't mind that there was no secret after all (I was convinced Rey was Luke's daughter and Snoke was a Sith Lord from the old Rule of Two days who survived he's apprentice's assassination attempt, but I'm not at all bothered that I was wrong on both counts). I'm happy to let those characters be informed by what we've seen on screen rather than a book or comic or obscure reference.
For those that want it, I'm sure there'll be a book along in the next couple of years that explains exactly what, who and why Snoke is, but the fact remains that any 'secret' to his identity was entirely constructed by the fans, not informed by the previous film.
Sorry but this is a false equivalency. The emperor in the OT is slowly build: we only observe his effect in the words and actions of the officers and Vader in ANH, then we see him creeping in the life of the protagonists as a direct master of Vader until the final confrontation. He has already in ANH the detail needed: we hear the officers say he dissolved the senate, one already knows he is a power hungry new caesar and he just got rid of a formality - the reaction of the officers is clear. We know know that is a political figure and is immensely powerful, by ESB or at least RotJwe know that he is in the same space wizard stuff of Vader. By then, he is a demonic figure of the tempter. He moves within archetypes and lives by those. We don't need anything more, McDarmid notwithstanding, the man with the mission to make the prequels bearable.
Snoke just grabs the superficial elements of the Emperor but is shallow, is unable to survive, as a character, only on them. And the very muddy context he is in just makes thing worse. The FO is supposed to be the underdog, but the audience is considered too stupid to follow that, so a carbon copy of the ANH must be chosen as a setting even if half of the movie implies the opposite and demands incredibly stupid decisions from everyone's part. He is powerful and yet we did not know him, and the prequels make clear Sith and similar guys come in packages of 2. He is scarred, but no detail is given on that. In case of the emperor, we discover in the prequels the monster face is due to a duel, but he could have been just a monstrously old being and we would have been happy with that. The scars in Snoke add detail that in narrative term need explanation. And again, the context. The FO can build a preposterous super-death star, huge ships and still we don't have an hint about Snoke, not even "Buzzwordian Crimelord" or a "Noble from House Whateverian, historically linked to the Dark side" just to give a tad bit of believability to him and the Order, his motivations beyond " I am evil LMAO" and the resources they use. Snoke is, literally, a guy that is supposed to be killed in a Throne Room 2.0 because is a twist compared to RotJ. This is the essential "meta" nature of these movies.
This is just sloppy writing. And no, is not because is "a children movie" because the OT was a children movie and was not this stupid. Also, there is the chance that Snoke will come back in any incredibly stupid way because now the modus operandi is to just make thing on the spot with no attention to character or universe whatsoever. So maybe J.J. next movie will find an explanation from the ending part of his digestive apparatus. But in the meanwhile, the current one is an anticlimatic nonsense build like a Wham Episode of a TV series. Nothing is build to be stand-alone (I still have to read preposterous suggestions about reading the book to fix a stupid plot -stop that. is insulting) or to have a true, epic arc. Hell they purportedly any chance, I dare to say RISK of epic with marvel quipping. Because god forbid we forget that this is a movie. Because these movies are not longer for children. They are not fairy tale anymore, the magic is murdered for the TV-series crowd. Everything is deconstructed form the sake of a temporary, volatile, futile surprise.
Snoke was simply a plot device for Kylo Ren, who is the real bad guy of this trilogy. A lot of Star Wars villains are all flash and little substance. They only exist so the heroes have something to fight. Boba Fett is a great example of no personality or history. He existed to move the plot and then he dies in an embarrassing fashion. All of the development came after the sarlac burp.
I feel that there's a bit too much hyperbole when it comes to The Emperor.
When it came to the original trilogy, we had an Evil Emperor who was the leader of the Empire. As a starting point, that is enough information. There is no extra context needed. It's the Hero of 1000 Faces, it's the same story that has been told for centuries, we don't need more information, we can infer things from humanities collective knowledge of stories.
Episode 7 and 8 are a continuation of those stories. Sure, it's a really long time later, but it's still a continuation. The last the audience knew, the good guys won. Then Snoke appears, this new piece to the jigsaw and people scramble to figure out where he fits in. You get all the theories and so on.
But the truth is, after revealing The Last Jedi is, from watching the films. The answer is. He doesn't. He's just some random piece from some other puzzle, that has no context, just jammed in there.
Why does that need explaining though? Snoke is scarred for the same reason Chewie is tall and hairy and Star Destroyers are angular and grey and C-3PO is gold and shiny and Ben Kenobi is old and bearded. It's visual shorthand. You'd never look at Snoke and think 'yep, he looks like a really nice friendly guy'. He looks monstrous, menacing and ancient, and that's all you need to know about him for his place in the narrative to work.
People have come to read way too much into every little detail of Star Wars and demand that everything be explained, and unless they switch over to making 4-hour-long films twice a year, we're never going to get answers to every question that comes up. I really can't see how not knowing why Snoke has scars detracts from TFA or TLJ in any way.
Crimson Devil wrote: Snoke was simply a plot device for Kylo Ren, who is the real bad guy of this trilogy. A lot of Star Wars villains are all flash and little substance. They only exist so the heroes have something to fight. Boba Fett is a great example of no personality or history. He existed to move the plot and then he dies in an embarrassing fashion. All of the development came after the sarlac burp.
Boba had the detail needed for his role. His motivations are simple: is "get Han to Jabba, get money".
Simple =/= stupid
Paradigm wrote: The thing about Snoke is, at this point we know as much about him as we ever knew about Palpatine across the original trilogy. Political leader of The Baddies, strong with the Dark Side, plans to corrupt the hero of the piece, has an apprentice who he is eventually betrayed by. (let's not forget the word Sith isn't used in the entirety of the OT, Darth is just a name, not a rank and Vader is referred to as a Jedi several times)
The difference is, this time, because of the cultural mass around SW, people assumed there must be some secret to his identity that tied it in with the old EU or the new EU or the Old Republic or the prequels... Which is fine, it's always fun to speculate and I indulged in it myself. Same with Rey's lineage. But in both cases, I really don't mind that there was no secret after all (I was convinced Rey was Luke's daughter and Snoke was a Sith Lord from the old Rule of Two days who survived he's apprentice's assassination attempt, but I'm not at all bothered that I was wrong on both counts). I'm happy to let those characters be informed by what we've seen on screen rather than a book or comic or obscure reference.
For those that want it, I'm sure there'll be a book along in the next couple of years that explains exactly what, who and why Snoke is, but the fact remains that any 'secret' to his identity was entirely constructed by the fans, not informed by the previous film.
When you start a movie calling it episode lV straight up as the first thing you see. You know there are going to be unknowns - so it's okay that we don't know much about palatine 30 years ago at first release. We learn a great deal about him in ROtJ and the prequels though (you know, before he died).
Ashiraya wrote: I don't really mind Poe not being told. He had just proven himself to be reckless and prone to insubordination,
So why don't any of the other Resistance members deserve so much as a "hey, we've got a plan. Don't lose hope and spend the last few hours of your lives staring at the inevitable death by big laser cannons you can literally see out your space windows?"
....and while his plan with the dreadnought paid off it came with a very heavy cost. Commanders also can't simply ignore someone ignoring their orders, it's not how ranks work.
Mostly agree when you switch "very heavy cost" with "very poor risk-reward ratio."
The destruction of the dreadnaught came at the cost of a bomber squadron and saved the entire resistance, as if the dreadnaught had not been destroyed it's super cannon would have shot the main cruiser to smithereens through the shield. Poe's plan had a terrible risk-reward ratio as if the bomber run had failed the dreadnaught would have been able to destroy the main cruiser immediately afterwards and the Resistance would have died. Putting the cruiser at risk like that for bagging a dreadnaught was foolishness, and it was only his raw talent that kept him assigned a ship at all. [Remember, at this point decisions were made in the knowledge that a hyperspace jump would pull them all to safety]
Poe had no right at all to demand knowledge of his officers' plans. If you, in real life, tried to approach your commander and demand to be told the plans, you would justifiably be given a boot to the rear compartment.
Poe: "Officer, we are all about to die. What is being done.?"
Commander: 'Trust in the force. Do nothing.'
No reassurances. No sending to the brig for insubordination. Completely incompetent leadership on her part. She literally did nothing in response to his challenge. She gave neither hope nor discipline.
Besides, there was a very real possibility of there being spies on board. The FO had tracked them through hyperspace and while I expected the classic hidden beep beep tracker to be responsible, a spy was also a possibility I considered. In such a situation commanders are understandably loath to share their crucial plans with anyone it is not absolutely necessary to tell.
Keep in mind this isn't an attack on your rationalizations for what happened in the movie. I think you've constructed the most logical motivations and facts from the narrative we are given. The narrative itself is pretty bunk though.
1. Apparently the Resistance knew they were being tracked through hyperspace by a tracker. It is accepted as an absolute fact by every party for no reason.
2. If the commanders suspected a spy we could have had some fun bluff, double bluff stuff and maybe an actual spy! Or at least a mr Slugworth character could have been nice.
3. Not sharing a secret plan is not the same as leaving your crew in the dark without morale support of any kind. It is simply poor leadership.
The entire "put Poe in his place (and make Fin and Rose useless)" subplot is frustrating on multiple levels.
First of all, the message I got from a star wars movie is "don't question authority or go off and try to save the day. You'll just make it worse. Trust your commanders unquestioningly." That's not terribly star wars. It rankles tremendously. Especially when you have a much better "communicate with each other and trust each other to do the right thing" as lower hanging fruit.
Poe could have, and bloody well should have, told his commander what he (suspected) he knew about the first order's tracking ability and how they still had a shot to slip away. His withholding of that trust cost him the unity of the crew. Mutiny should never be undertaken before giving your commanding officer all the facts to make a decision. In that respect Poe's secrecy was more jarring, and reckless, and idiotic than his commander's.
Secondly, blame for the deaths of those killed in the transports is cast at Poe's feet because the slicer his friends found informed the first order of the Resistance plans. Problems with that:
1. Poe didn't know the plan. Impossible for him to have leaked it.
2. Slicer guy didn't know the plan. He either made an informed guess or was spewing bs and got lucky.
3. It was a terrible plan. Remember, the first order is monitoring the Cruiser's fuel reserves and is actively firing on it. It is in sensor range and has the sensors to get through whatever cloaking they were relying on, should the first order care to use it.
4. Why could Poe contact Maz but the Resistance couldn't contact their people? Why couldn't Maz contact people? How come she doesn't have time to save the Resistance she clearly cared for in TFA but assumes they have time to go find someone else to do it?
The whole thing is dumb from start to finish.
First Order Officer: "They're faster than us but they can't pull away from us."
That's not faster, that's the same speed.
Last but not least. Poe inadvertently mucks up the transport plan (that totally would have gone off perfectly so long as the First Order doesn't turn on their sensors) but also inadvertently save the Resistance by destroying the dreadnaught against orders.
If that dreadnaught had been part of the jump it's guns would have made mincemeat of the Resistance. He accidentally both saves and dooms the good guys but is held morally accountable for the dooming while also never having his saving acknowledged.
Poe disobeys Leia's orders and attacks the dreadnought. While he takes the dreadnought, most of the Resistance fighters and all of its bombers are lost. This was a bad trade for the Resistance. The FO demonstrably has a lot more military might where that came from whereas the Resistance absolutely does not. Leia admonished Poe for this - it's not just that he disobeyed her order but also that he lacks the vision necessary for effective managing (apparently ultra-scarce) Resistance resources. Demoting Poe literally communicates that he is not ready for command.
That's all fine.
Poe is (somehow) disappointed that he is not given command in the wake of the loss of the Resistance leadership. We're introduced to Laura Dern who is the hero of the Battle of Whatever, which seems to impress Poe. Poe tries to talk with her and she shoots him down. Later, when Poe asks what the plan is, she shoots him down. When he figures out part of her plan and questions her, she shoots him down. The movie set Poe up to get a lesson in good leadership. But the character the movie introduces to teach him that lesson (why not Leia btw? because Carrie Fisher was a bad actress?) is also a terrible leader.
I understand that the point was to make the audience suspect that Laura Dern is a Bad Guy so that in AN ASTOUNDING TWIST the movie could explain that she truly is an awesome hero. But her characterization does not support this plot structure. The script even concedes this is the case by requiring her to make the Heroic Sacrifice. Her behavior leading to the mutiny cannot reasonably be excused and Rian Johnson realized this. That's why he then has her insist on, literally, going down with the ship (despite there being no actual reason for this).
Skipping ahead, Poe is unwilling to just wait for the FO to kill them on the Salt Planet. This is exactly the same attitude he had all through the rest of the movie. This is exactly what Leia chastised and demoted him for. But now she explicitly approves his request to Blow Stuff Up. Then, in the middle of doing so, after getting even more people killed, Poe has his Realization Moment and orders breaking off the attack.
What is the point of this? Though the whole mutiny subplot, Poe has not fundamentally changed his attitude: doing courageous acts requiring self sacrifice seems to be his go-to solution. But then, when he is doing that, with Leia's explicit approval, he decides it's actually a bad idea. Poe has learned to ... what? Run away? But that's the opposite of what Admiral Laura Dern actually does.
I don't know what the movie wants me to feel. I don't think the movie knows what it wants the audience to feel. I think this is why it has such a hard time inserting jokes into totally inappropriate moments, for example.
Oh,Kylo and Rey were great. Like, legitimately amazing. That's mostly to the strength of the acting I feel.
I've watched the movie twice now and it's better the second time knowing what Luke is actually wrestling with throughout his exile. In that sense the movie gets better with time.
On the other hand whole sections of the movie are basically filler, IMO.
What is the point of this? Though the whole mutiny subplot, Poe has not fundamentally changed his attitude: doing courageous acts requiring self sacrifice seems to be his go-to solution. But then, when he is doing that, with Leia's explicit approval, he decides it's actually a bad idea. Poe has learned to ... what? Run away? But that's the opposite of what Admiral Laura Dern actually does.
Which, naturally, of course, directly contradicts the lesson, whatever it was, of Finn and Rose's journey... Which took up about a quarter to a third of the films runtime.
I seriously don't get why the critics, the professionals, aren't tearing the film apart for this sort of thing, which they'd happily do for various other films.
I don't know what the movie wants me to feel. I don't think the movie knows what it wants the audience to feel. I think this is why it has such a hard time inserting jokes into totally inappropriate moments, for example.
Hux and Kylo when they see Luke, for example.
And was anyone else surprised to hear the rest of the audience laughing when Kylo briefly ignites the lightsaber for a head shot? It happened in both viewings I attended and it weirded me out.
Crimson Devil wrote: Snoke was simply a plot device for Kylo Ren, who is the real bad guy of this trilogy. A lot of Star Wars villains are all flash and little substance. They only exist so the heroes have something to fight. Boba Fett is a great example of no personality or history. He existed to move the plot and then he dies in an embarrassing fashion. All of the development came after the sarlac burp.
Boba had the detail needed for his role. His motivations are simple: is "get Han to Jabba, get money".
Simple =/= stupid
Which is the same level of detail most Star Wars villains have. Kylo is probably the most developed villain so far, and most of that is simply the skywalker whine. Star Wars =/= Simple
Scrabb wrote: Oh,Kylo and Rey were great. Like, legitimately amazing. That's mostly to the strength of the acting I feel.
I've watched the movie twice now and it's better the second time knowing what Luke is actually wrestling with throughout his exile. In that sense the movie gets better with time.
On the other hand whole sections of the movie are basically filler, IMO.
This has to be a joke. Kylos acting is trash - and it's not helped by the fact that his character is trash.
Which, naturally, of course, directly contradicts the lesson, whatever it was, of Finn and Rose's journey... Which took up about a quarter to a third of the films runtime.
I seriously don't get why the critics, the professionals, aren't tearing the film apart for this sort of thing, which they'd happily do for various other films.
I've read like three articles about how great it is that this star wars don't care about the past and go book burnings, whoo!
While ignoring that Rey took the books and they still exist.
Crimson Devil wrote: Snoke was simply a plot device for Kylo Ren, who is the real bad guy of this trilogy. A lot of Star Wars villains are all flash and little substance. They only exist so the heroes have something to fight. Boba Fett is a great example of no personality or history. He existed to move the plot and then he dies in an embarrassing fashion. All of the development came after the sarlac burp.
Boba had the detail needed for his role. His motivations are simple: is "get Han to Jabba, get money". Simple =/= stupid
Which is the same level of detail most Star Wars villains have. Kylo is probably the most developed villain so far, and most of that is simply the skywalker whine. Star Wars =/= Simple
Are you arguing that I) Snoke and Fett need the same level of detail, especially in their motivations II) Regardless of (I), both are given a proportionally comparable level of detail (especially in their motivations)? I... am not sure about that.
Crimson Devil wrote: Snoke was simply a plot device for Kylo Ren, who is the real bad guy of this trilogy. A lot of Star Wars villains are all flash and little substance. They only exist so the heroes have something to fight. Boba Fett is a great example of no personality or history. He existed to move the plot and then he dies in an embarrassing fashion. All of the development came after the sarlac burp.
Boba had the detail needed for his role. His motivations are simple: is "get Han to Jabba, get money".
Simple =/= stupid
Which is the same level of detail most Star Wars villains have. Kylo is probably the most developed villain so far, and most of that is simply the skywalker whine. Star Wars =/= Simple
Boba is a filler character. His part in the original trilogy is incredibly small. I think his name is only mentioned once by Han Solo and he dies right after. People liked his character after the fact because of action figures and micro machines of slave 1. You could honestly remove him from SW and it would have no effect on the story.
The same can not be said of Snoke. Without Snoke - there would be no story. A character of this importance to get no plot development but you have time for Chewy to howl at space penguins for 2 minutes? come on man.
I loved the Reylo team up. I was pretty gutted when it snapped back to Same Old Star Wars. BTW, by "Same Old Star Wars" I don't mean ESB ... I mean RotS. The end of the Reylo team up was not an echo of Vader and Luke on Bespin ... it was more of an echo of Anakin and Padme on Mustafar.
This has to be a joke. Kylos acting is trash - and it's not helped by the fact that his character is trash.
Agree to disagree.
So you are serious. Okay. Yeah I'm not going to argue with your opinion but...man. What do you consider bad acting?
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Manchu wrote: I loved the Reylo team up. I was pretty gutted when it snapped back to Same Old Star Wars. But it, by "Same Old Star Wars" I don't mean ESB ... I mean RotS. The end of the Reylo team up was not an echo of Vader and Luke on Bespin ... it was more of an echo of Anakin and Padme on Mustafar.
TLJ is much more in line with the PT than the OT.
"it was more of an echo of Anakin and Padme on Mustafar."
I LOLed. True - some of the same lines are even spoken. This was the most thought provoking moment in the film for me. You can see Anaken in him at that time.
Nothing that happened in the OT called into question Palpatine's background. Meanwhile in TFA and TLJ, understanding how the FO is so powerful, why Kylo Ren wants to be Darth Vader/hates Luke Skywalker, and potentially who Rey is/what the Awakening is, all of these elements seem to be connected to Snoke's background. So yes it is relatively simple to see why people are disappointed that Snoke was discarded like a soiled napkin halfway through TLJ.
I LOLed. True - some of the same lines are even spoken. This was the most thought provoking moment in the film for me. You can see Anaken in him at that time.
So Rey has a thing for the dark, dangerous boy that killed his Father. A father that is a galactic hero.
Another success for the feminist writers I guess. I want to cry.
Her obvious girlboner over his giant moist nude chest was pretty awkward especially because it was not yet clear whether or not they are siblings/cousins.
I mean, if anything could push this closer to feeling like fanfiction ripped off the internet it would be an incest twist.
FWIW, I thought Driver and Ridley both did a great job with their lines and that their scenes toegether were really well written.
I don't understand, however, how people can say praise TLJ for breaking with previous SW movies. Because that's false.
If Kathleen Kennedy and Rian Johnson wanted to do something different they would have stuck with the Reylo team up. This would be really complex but it would have driven a major theme (I guess?) of the movie, that the Force is greater than light and dark, so much more strongly. I would have loved to see the Reylo team up last through most of Episode IX, with Finn and Poe (and Luke and Leia!) really questioning Rey's choices while Kylo's relationship to the dark side and the FO goes haywire.
But TLJ went the arch conservative route of unwinding the Reylo team up almost as soon as it happened, so we could have the traditional good guy versus bad guy thing.
So you are serious. Okay. Yeah I'm not going to argue with your opinion but...man. What do you consider bad acting?
No offense taken. Not a fan of overacting. But don't really think about it much.
Did Adam Driver not portray a dude trying to be stoic who was actually super not that way? Because I basically imagined Kylo's internal monologue the entire movie to be some variation of "I must scream but have no mouth" kind of a reverse Snape occlumency type deal, as a means of standing next to Snoke without getting mind read and zapped.
Better than the force awakens, still struggling to be as good as Rogue One. It was worth seeing it on the big screen at a theater that sells beer. I gave RogueOne an 9/10 and Force Awakens a 5/10 last time.
6/10 - well worth the watch, but the final installment really needs to flesh things out
Stevefamine wrote: Better than the force awakens, still struggling to be as good as Rogue One. It was worth seeing it on the big screen at a theater that sells beer. I gave RogueOne an 9/10 and Force Awakens a 5/10 last time.
6/10 - well worth the watch, but the final installment really needs to flesh things out
I agree with you on R1. I give both TLJ and TFA a 5/10 though...
If I had a soul this movie would have crushed it. It might be my and my daughters hyping it up over the last 2 years since TFA but I sat there for minutes once the movie ended trying to decide what the hell just happened. The girls looked at me like they had no idea what they should do. Flabbergasted does not cover it.
OK, so Reys partentage - Easily could be a manipulative lie. I don't think it is though as Rian Johnson has stated that his intent was for her parentage to be nothing of note.
Losing the face mask- not very Vader-esque. Honestly I like that he had it. It fell in line with how the Sith do business.
Snoke dying without even talk of what his beginnings are within the movie. It has been discussed in novels but after the hype in TFA to see him so easily discarded seemed wrong and underwhelming.
Rey- Am I the only one that noticed she had the books of the Whills?
The books- No discussion of the guardians or the grey order. Just books with stuff that are not page turners according to Yoda.
TFG that we are losing Johnson as a writer/director for the last installment.
Over all prediction, an end to the Skywalker lineage. New stories, Rey as the new badass and Fin as the new scoundrel.
Saw it with the wife at midnight on Wednesday & again on Saturday with friends.
I enjoyed pretty much everything in the film, not sure if it should all have been in the same film. Hell, there came a point late in the film where I'm thinking; "ok, that was a cool final act, time to wrap it up", and then they went on an had a whole other act. Yeeash. Long film.
I will say that it has the best explanation of the 'Force' I've seen on film. Just perfect.
Pendix wrote: Saw it with the wife at midnight on Wednesday & again on Saturday with friends.
I enjoyed pretty much everything in the film, not sure if it should all have been in the same film. Hell, there came a point late in the film where I'm thinking; "ok, that was a cool final act, time to wrap it up", and then they went on an had a whole other act. Yeeash. Long film.
I will say that it has the best explanation of the 'Force' I've seen on film. Just perfect.
Manchu wrote: Her obvious girlboner over his giant moist nude chest was pretty awkward especially because it was not yet clear whether or not they are siblings/cousins.
Hardly. There was no evidence in the movie for them being related, only fan theories. And I don't think it's fair to accuse the movie of being awkward based on fanfiction.
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Kaiyanwang wrote: So Rey has a thing for the dark, dangerous boy that killed his Father. A father that is a galactic hero.
Another success for the feminist writers I guess. I want to cry.
...
You really are determined to have your anti-feminist crusade, aren't you...
I was hoping he'd be more of a Darth Revan type figure, someone who willingly embraces the Dark Side to grow in power enough to combat a greater threat to the Galaxy (Darth "Emperor Valkorian" Vitiate / Supreme Leader Snoke).
Manchu wrote: Peregrine, I said it was not clear at that point whether they were related not that I thought they were.
It also wasn't clear that Rey wasn't Luke in disguise. It also wasn't clear that Rey wasn't Han's mother in a time-travel plot. It also wasn't clear that Rey wasn't Palpatine's secret apprentice. The fact that the movie didn't explicitly say "Rey and Kylo are not related" doesn't mean that the theory that they are was anything but fan speculation, or that a scene is awkward because of fan speculation. TBH I don't understand why anyone would have ever thought that they were related, it was such an obviously stupid idea that the only suspicion at all was "oh god, please don't let Disney do something that awful".
Manchu wrote: Peregrine, I said it was not clear at that point whether they were related not that I thought they were.
It also wasn't clear that Rey wasn't Luke in disguise. It also wasn't clear that Rey wasn't Han's mother in a time-travel plot. It also wasn't clear that Rey wasn't Palpatine's secret apprentice. The fact that the movie didn't explicitly say "Rey and Kylo are not related" doesn't mean that the theory that they are was anything but fan speculation, or that a scene is awkward because of fan speculation. TBH I don't understand why anyone would have ever thought that they were related, it was such an obviously stupid idea that the only suspicion at all was "oh god, please don't let Disney do something that awful".
Because Disney is cherry picking elements from the old Expanded Universe to adapt into its new Star Wars films, TV shows and canon books. Fans speculated that Kylo Ren and Rey would reflect the Jacen and Jaina Solo dynamic (relatives who are pitted against each other when one falls to the Dark Side).
Look, the scene was awkward in itself. It was shades of Fifty Shades, or at least Twilight. It was weird. Two years of speculation, willfully enabled by Disney, that these two might be related just made it that much weirder.
Peregrine wrote: TBH I don't understand why anyone would have ever thought that they were related, it was such an obviously stupid idea that the only suspicion at all was "oh god, please don't let Disney do something that awful".
Yes, who would expect sexual tension between relatives in a Star Wars film, in trilogy desperate to rehash the originals.
Unreasonable!
Not saying I personally expected them to make out or be related (largely out of disinterest in what two blocks of wood might do), but not understanding where people might get the idea from is being pretty oblivious.
You really are determined to have your anti-feminist crusade, aren't you...
My only (burning) crusade is against the GW design team.
I have the maximum respect for first and second wave feminism. I have concerns about the third wave but more concerning the methods than the aims (I consider myself a liberal in most matters, albeit I think many liberals, especially in the media, are sanctimonious dickheads that have lost contact with reality).
I have less patience for hypocrites; and Disney is incredibly hypocrite. They show themselves as modern and inclusive, but regardless they shallow statements, they wrote horrible female characters.
- Rey is a Mary Sue, see above my points about her infallible yet pointless character
- Phasma has ben introduced as a strong antagonist, it became a farce
- The admiral came out as stubborn, incommunicative, incompetent. Compare with lando and Akbar in RotJ, as an example.
My comment above is about the chilling implication of the attraction for Ren. This would be essentially the fethed up relationship shown in that modern horror (not in the sense that has vampires) that is Twilight. I find it unacceptable from those that write that "the force is female".
Are these women supposed to be an inspiration for the little girl? Gods save us. Compare them with what Luke was before this movie.
Before this movie.
Same hypocrisy for the black character. He was supposed to be tragic, or at least conflicted, but I think that the writers could not help themselves pigeonholing him into a joker in TFA, and then put him in an authentic containment plot in TLJ. How can people see this and say that is all fine is beyond me.
Rey is destine to be a Jedi, all of them are Mary Sues. Luke didn't look that way only because he is such a feth up. His impetuousness forces him to make bad decisions. And then he whines about it. If Leia had been the one Ben/Yoda trained she would've have been a lot like Rey.
Phasma is the new Boba Fett.
The Vice Admiral is a Vice Admiral, all military officers hate being second guessed by the lower ranks. It pisses them off.
I would have really liked if instead of creating a new character as Vice Admiral, they would have had Akbar fulfill that role. They could have even thrown in a line when he is about to go to hyperspace, "Now, who's trapped?" At least his death would have done something as opposed to being a thowaway line.
Crimson Devil wrote: Rey is destine to be a Jedi, all of them are Mary Sues. Luke didn't look that way only because he is such a feth up. His impetuousness forces him to make bad decisions. And then he whines about it. If Leia had been the one Ben/Yoda trained she would've have been a lot like Rey.
No, Leia still would have been interesting for the time.
Rey's problem is exactly the same as Finn's problem, as well as Poe's problem. If you swap these characters around, nothing changes. If Finn were the secret force user (which was entirely plausible thanks to the advertising of Finn with the lightsaber), no part of TFA's story is different. Rey can stalk off in the cantina to seek a ride back to Jakku, only to be interrupted by the FO attack. Finn can be kidnapped, questioned, then free himself with instant force mastery, while Rey is on the rescue team that doesn't matter (because the target of the rescue is already free). If Poe had walked away from the crashed Tie Fighter instead of Finn, he would take the exact same role (except play it straight, rather than lie), except it might actually make sense if he were the pilot and she were the gunner. Then Finn could show up later for no apparent reason in a Resisty X-wing.
Same with this film. If F goes for jedi training, R could question authority and P could go on the pointless side quest. Or P could head off to find Luke (if he had picked up the lightsaber of destiny at some point during TFA), F could question authority, and R could go on the sidequest with the new character (or an old character). It makes no difference at all which character does what, which is a nice way of showing off how shallow they all are.
Kaiyanwang wrote:Akbar in RotJ
Akbar is a single meme. Beyond that he slobbers out a couple uninteresting lines of exposition from the depths of an entirely unconvincing suit.
, and more a matter of Realpolitik. The First Order is the only power left standing. The resistance is down to maybe two dozen guys, with no resources. Luke is [spoilers], and the New Republic was nuked from orbit of a star six systems away. The First Order may honestly be the best option for avoiding Galactic Anarchy.
