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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Arrogance and overconfidence. When you’re sure they’ve nowhere to run and you’ve got a point to make, why not draw it out?

Because they are wasting fuel and ammunition they don't have to? They could be out continuing conquering the galaxy? Plus - they are rebels - they even tried a plan to escape that almost worked...why risk that? Like...your point is really weak - just admit you liked the movie because you got to get excited about starwars again. How can you defend that plothole?

 Xenomancers wrote:
Just had a thought too - if you have a fleet trapped and they can't hyper space away because you will just follow them...why don't you force the issue and hyperspace a few ships in front of them and then they are totally doomed. This is essentially a plot hole that should never make it's way into a big budget movie and I can't believe I didn't think about it sooner.

We've never gotten a good idea of what a minimum jump distance is. Likely a small jump still puts them way ahead of where the MonCal would run out of fuel given the speed of light and all. Even if you were off a bit in your direction of travel you'd be hundreds of miles away at the end.

Saw it today. The plot of the movie was just as bland and shallow as TFA, which I guess I should have expected.

But it was a glorious visual spectacle, and that Reylo fight in the Throne Room was incredible. Those Praetorian Guards were fantastic. I hope we see the Knights of Ren again for similar duels in Ep9.

Definitely up there as one of my favourite Light-sabre duels of all time, second only to Luke/Vader in ROTJ.

My biggest disappointment is how much of a let down Snoke was...I thought he was going to be some big uber bad guy Ancient Sith, Disney's version of Darth Vitiate (a Sith so powerful he consumed entire worlds of life). Disney certainly hyped him up way too much. I was hoping that Rey would actually join Kylo Ren, and that Kylo's fall to the dark side was a long-con plan to take down the single biggest threat to all life in the Galaxy (much like Darth Revan fell to the dark side trying to defeat Darth Vitiate).

And WTF ever happened to the Grey Jedi angle that Disney was foreshadowing with the Bendu in SW Rebels, and the Guardians of the Whills prophecies.

tneva82 wrote:

Idea is good but did resistance literally have NOT EVEN ONE MORE x-wing left? Seriously odds of lone x-wing being able to take down all the guns should be ridiculously small(before big ships weren't as useless against fighters but guess the empire gunners have forgotten how to shoot) so if you are trying makes sense to use you know...bit more than lone fighter who like 99.99% cases would just get blown out of sky not accomplishing anything and when your whole escape plan relies on blowing those guns allowing transports to escape that's risky proposition.

Send one more X-Wing and its not a white flag envoy. The odds of a ship taking down all the guns is ridiculously small, but that's why Poe is the best pilot they've got and even he required a non-standard booster on his ship to do it.

Killing dreadnought wasn't required to escape; just an additional objective Poe believed they could accomplish along the way. That's why Leia was upset that Poe didn't choose to run and fight another day. He believed he could get the job done (and he could) but he didn't appreciate the consequences. The bombers were there because it was his mission. He was the commander and he only really succeeded by sending waves and waves of his own men until the TIEs hit their preset kill limit and let one through.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Just had a thought too - if you have a fleet trapped and they can't hyper space away because you will just follow them...why don't you force the issue and hyperspace a few ships in front of them and then they are totally doomed. This is essentially a plot hole that should never make it's way into a big budget movie and I can't believe I didn't think about it sooner.

We've never gotten a good idea of what a minimum jump distance is. Likely a small jump still puts them way ahead of where the MonCal would run out of fuel given the speed of light and all. Even if you were off a bit in your direction of travel you'd be hundreds of miles away at the end.

Then light speed out to minimum distance and then turn around and do it again...not to mention we know they are pretty accurate because when they were followed they came right up on them.

 Lance845 wrote:
I think this is the best sw movie. Better then empire. Better action. Better story. I think its exactly what the whole franchise needed. A clean break from everything that came before it.

Spoiler:

Who is snoak? Doesnt matter hes dead.

Who are rays parents? Doesnt matter their nobody. Their dead. Move forward.

What about the skywalker lineage? Doesnt matter. Its done. Other people exist in the universe who are important without having to be in proximity of a skywalker. Move forward.

It feels like were free of episode 1-6 now. A burden is gone and they can just move forward.

What about our ability to believe that the outcome of the next movie matters? Doesn't matter, they're dead.

What about our ability to believe in any solution that doesn't involve ramming a hyper drive through something? Doesn't matter, it's dead.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Just had a thought too - if you have a fleet trapped and they can't hyper space away because you will just follow them...why don't you force the issue and hyperspace a few ships in front of them and then they are totally doomed. This is essentially a plot hole that should never make it's way into a big budget movie and I can't believe I didn't think about it sooner.

We've never gotten a good idea of what a minimum jump distance is. Likely a small jump still puts them way ahead of where the MonCal would run out of fuel given the speed of light and all. Even if you were off a bit in your direction of travel you'd be hundreds of miles away at the end.

Then light speed out to minimum distance and then turn around and do it again...not to mention we know they are pretty accurate because when they were followed they came right up on them.

If my minimum jump distance is 500 and they're 5 in front of me and I jump, they're 495 behind me. If I jump back I still have a minimum distance of 500 so I just end up 5 behind them again. They mostly just gain ground during my turnaround time.

 Peregrine wrote:
The Republic fleet would have been spread out through the galaxy (after all, they have pirates to deal with, defensive positions to maintain, etc) and even if half the fleet was destroyed in orbit over the capital that still leaves thousands, probably millions, of ships.

That would be true if we didn't know it was all false. This discussion was had when TFA came out and while it was really only said in the novelization it was explicitly stated that the Republic fleet was in the system when the system was nuked by Super Death Star Plus. Was it silly then? Yes. Is it still silly? Also yes. Does it mean that they aren't treating it as true? No, they are treating it as canon. You're essentially doing the "In the real world we would never do something like that" but this ain't the real world and they did do something like that. It is also why the First Order was able to take over, as the opening crawl of this movie says, leaving just the Resistance to fight yet even they are on their last leg. It is also why the Resistance were trying to find allies in the Outer Rim as there was nothing in the core that could lend support.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Just had a thought too - if you have a fleet trapped and they can't hyper space away because you will just follow them...why don't you force the issue and hyperspace a few ships in front of them and then they are totally doomed. This is essentially a plot hole that should never make it's way into a big budget movie and I can't believe I didn't think about it sooner.

We've never gotten a good idea of what a minimum jump distance is. Likely a small jump still puts them way ahead of where the MonCal would run out of fuel given the speed of light and all. Even if you were off a bit in your direction of travel you'd be hundreds of miles away at the end.

Then light speed out to minimum distance and then turn around and do it again...not to mention we know they are pretty accurate because when they were followed they came right up on them.

If my minimum jump distance is 500 and they're 5 in front of me and I jump, they're 495 behind me. If I jump back I still have a minimum distance of 500 so I just end up 5 behind them again. They mostly just gain ground during my turnaround time.

You don't do it with all your ships. Lets assume the Home 2 is equal to the Star Destroyer knockoff. Simply jump 3 of your pizza slices in front. The Rebels now have a hard limit on how much they can scheme. The First Order outclassed the Resistance by a massive amount- 3 Slices still leave you with a lot of pizza to murder people with.

It really wasn't that long of a wait to take out the Resistance Fleet. In less than 12 hours they got it down to one capitol ship so their chutzpah on the issue probably seemed justified.

 Ahtman wrote:
It really wasn't that long of a wait to take out the Resistance Fleet. In less than 12 hours they got it down to one capitol ship so their chutzpah on the issue probably seemed justified.

Only because Vice Admiral SHILL THIS CHARACTER decided to fly the last ship through my willing suspension of disbelief.

 Ahtman wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
The Republic fleet would have been spread out through the galaxy (after all, they have pirates to deal with, defensive positions to maintain, etc) and even if half the fleet was destroyed in orbit over the capital that still leaves thousands, probably millions, of ships.

That would be true if we didn't know it was all false. This discussion was had when TFA came out and while it was really only said in the novelization it was explicitly stated that the Republic fleet was in the system when the system was nuked by Super Death Star Plus. Was it silly then? Yes. Is it still silly? Also yes. Does it mean that they aren't treating it as true? No, they are treating it as canon. You're essentially doing the "In the real world we would never do something like that" but this ain't the real world and they did do something like that. It is also why the First Order was able to take over, as the opening crawl of this movie says, leaving just the Resistance to fight yet even they are on their last leg. It is also why the Resistance were trying to find allies in the Outer Rim as there was nothing in the core that could lend support.

It's not just a question of 'in the real world.' It's a fundamental problem for the setting, and from what you say, the setup of the film. The text crawl, or even the premise of the film, doesn't override 'this is a moronic plothole that didn't need to be there,' and wouldn't have if someone had a handy copy of the evil overlord list:
"#12 One of my advisors will be an average five-year-old child. Any flaws in my plan that he is able to spot will be corrected before implementation."

Merely chasing down the Resisty's leadership is enough of a compelling reason to go through with things. With the government gone in a display of complete ignorance about how time and distance work (see TFA), the First Order would logically want to hunt down the Resistance leadership before they could link up with other Republic Fleets spread across the galaxy. Thus, the story of the film. Stupid winner-take-all plotholes magnifying the utter absurdity of TFA's impossible superweapon and light-year vision of apparently everyone in galaxy was a completely unnecessary flaw to introduce to TLJ.

I have a theory, as to why Kylo decided to become Supreme Leader...

Simply put, it is less that he believes in this dark side , and more a matter of Realpolitik. The First Order is the only power left standing. The resistance is down to maybe two dozen guys, with no resources. Luke is [spoilers], and the New Republic was nuked from orbit of a star six systems away. The First Order may honestly be the best option for avoiding Galactic Anarchy.

Of course, I think this post makes me overqualified to be a script writer for the sequel trilogy.

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
I think this is the best sw movie. Better then empire. Better action. Better story. I think its exactly what the whole franchise needed. A clean break from everything that came before it.

Spoiler:

Who is snoak? Doesnt matter hes dead.

Who are rays parents? Doesnt matter their nobody. Their dead. Move forward.

What about the skywalker lineage? Doesnt matter. Its done. Other people exist in the universe who are important without having to be in proximity of a skywalker. Move forward.

It feels like were free of episode 1-6 now. A burden is gone and they can just move forward.

What about our ability to believe that the outcome of the next movie matters? Doesn't matter, they're dead.

What about our ability to believe in any solution that doesn't involve ramming a hyper drive through something? Doesn't matter, it's dead.

I think episode 9 will not end with kylo or rey dieing.

I think we are going to see both break away from the resistance/first order for one reason or another. I expect that both of them will found a new force user order that isn't all about the dark or the light and instead about the balance.

It will matter because episode 10 will likely be a time jump forward and follow future students of the new "grey jedi" order. Ridley has already said she isn't coming back for more movies after 9. I expect that is why.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Arrogance and overconfidence. When you’re sure they’ve nowhere to run and you’ve got a point to make, why not draw it out?

Because they are wasting fuel and ammunition they don't have to? They could be out continuing conquering the galaxy? Plus - they are rebels - they even tried a plan to escape that almost worked...why risk that? Like...your point is really weak - just admit you liked the movie because you got to get excited about starwars again. How can you defend that plothole?

My point isn’t really weak.

I was this excited for The Phantom Menace, yet beyond the duel of fates, that’s a massive steaming pile.

I enjoyed The Last Jedi because I enjoyed it.

Who is wasting fuel and ammo they don’t have? Not the First Order, unlike The Resistance, they’re well armed and equipped.

Go back and review Hux. The man is a arrogant brat. Snoke is clearly overconfident, as seen in his demise.

You not liking the plot or elements thereof don’t make them objectively bad. It just means it’s not to your taste.

this is one of the worst films I have ever seen :(

Voss wrote:
It's a fundamental problem for the setting, and from what you say, the setup of the film. The text crawl, or even the premise of the film, doesn't override 'this is a moronic plothole that didn't need to be there,

I never said it was smart, and in fact have implied the opposite, all I have stated was that it was what the films have decided to say on the subject. Also it isn't a plot hole it is just bad. A plot hole is an inconsistency within the diegesis but this isn't inconsistent it is just kind of a dumb approach.

 Formosa wrote:
this is one of the worst films I have ever seen :(

You must not watch a lot of movies then. Not liking it? Sure. Not everyone is going to like the same things and this film has enough issues that it isn't surprising. Worst you've ever seen? Makes me think you have only seen two or three movies your entire life. Hell even if you've seen any of the prequel films you've seen a film worse than this; this is problematic those were dumpster fires.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Arrogance and overconfidence. When you’re sure they’ve nowhere to run and you’ve got a point to make, why not draw it out?

Because they are wasting fuel and ammunition they don't have to? They could be out continuing conquering the galaxy? Plus - they are rebels - they even tried a plan to escape that almost worked...why risk that? Like...your point is really weak - just admit you liked the movie because you got to get excited about starwars again. How can you defend that plothole?

My point isn’t really weak.

I was this excited for The Phantom Menace, yet beyond the duel of fates, that’s a massive steaming pile.

I enjoyed The Last Jedi because I enjoyed it.

Who is wasting fuel and ammo they don’t have? Not the First Order, unlike The Resistance, they’re well armed and equipped.

Go back and review Hux. The man is a arrogant brat. Snoke is clearly overconfident, as seen in his demise.

You not liking the plot or elements thereof don’t make them objectively bad. It just means it’s not to your taste.

There is a difference between not liking the plot and there not being a plot. I loved phantom - it told a good story. It had a good plot. It had 1 bad character. These movies aren't even on the same level critically. They kill off the good characters by replacing them with bad ones - there is no plot - there is no back story. We are just watching a lot of ships blow up in spectacular fashion with some childish lessons about doing the right thing are being taught in the dialog.

 Ahtman wrote:

Voss wrote:
It's a fundamental problem for the setting, and from what you say, the setup of the film. The text crawl, or even the premise of the film, doesn't override 'this is a moronic plothole that didn't need to be there,

I never said it was smart, and in fact have implied the opposite, all I have stated was that it was what the films have decided to say on the subject. Also it isn't a plot hole it is just bad. A plot hole is an inconsistency within the diegesis but this isn't inconsistent it is just kind of a dumb approach.

 Formosa wrote:
this is one of the worst films I have ever seen :(

You must not watch a lot of movies then. Not liking it? Sure. Not everyone is going to like the same things and this film has enough issues that it isn't surprising. Worst you've ever seen? Makes me think you have only seen two or three movies your entire life. Hell even if you've seen any of the prequel films you've seen a film worse than this; this is problematic those were dumpster fires.

No I watch a lot of films, a hell of a lot of films, and the really bad films I have watched dont try to wrap themselves up as amazing blockbusters, they are bad and usually have a wink at it, this film, bad story, bad acting, terrible pacing, bad edits, cliche and very predictable story, terrible characters etc. etc.

Dare I say... even episode 2 and 3 were better than this, even episode 1 was slightly better than this terrible film.

So yes, this is the worst film I have ever seen....

While the prequels have issues, there's actually a lot of depth you can read from the background. Here, the entire plot for the trilogy hinges off of everyone basically choosing the worst decision that they can make, and making it.

Backfire wrote:

I agree that scene was cringe-worthy. I think it is Whedon's fault, he began the trend of light-hearted quipping on seemingly awful situations, and now it is out of control. It bothered me in latest Thor as well, though it was a decent movie otherwise.

However otherwise, I liked how Dameron was written in the movie. It was made explicitly clear that his hot-headedness is not necessarily always a positive asset.

Whedon is poison. I hate that hypocrite. Is the definition of shallowness and hypocrisy, both in his agendas and in his work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
While the prequels have issues, there's actually a lot of depth you can read from the background. Here, the entire plot for the trilogy hinges off of everyone basically choosing the worst decision that they can make, and making it.

TV-series writing. Is not "create the character, put them in the situation, see what thay would do".
Is "we need the epic twist to surprise the audience and push them to see more, so we create the situation, and we squeeze the characters on it - at the point of losing any characterization".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
It really wasn't that long of a wait to take out the Resistance Fleet. In less than 12 hours they got it down to one capitol ship so their chutzpah on the issue probably seemed justified.

Only because Vice Admiral SHILL THIS CHARACTER decided to fly the last ship through my willing suspension of disbelief.

That scene is beyond preposterous. And kinda kills the way war works in the universe.

A bigger question on the fuel stuff and chase...

When did fuel consumption become such an issue for ships in the Star Wars universe? If large ships have things akin to nuclear reactors or things even more advanced, why is fuel a concern? Modern nuclear reactors can go years or decades without refueling, fuel never seemed to be an issue for large vessels in previous films. That whole thing felt really hamfisted. The part with the First Order fighters having to be recalled for being out of range was also odd, why can't they operate beyond a few dozen kilometers from their home base ships? They're literally in quite short visual range of their home vessels before being recalled. Likewise, when the small rebel ship group is being chased, seemingly nothing but the gargantuan ship is firing, and only with its mega guns or whatever...everything else looks like it'd be within conventional modern cannon range...in space...why didn't they ever open fire?

They make a point of ties having short range in ANH just before they run into the death star. They comment how the tie can't be too far from its base. Then it makes a beeline for that small moon.


Also, star wars fights always happen in visual range..... For reasons.....

 welshhoppo wrote:
They make a point of ties having short range in ANH just before they run into the death star. They comment how the tie can't be too far from its base. Then it makes a beeline for that small moon.


Also, star wars fights always happen in visual range..... For reasons.....

Thing is, you could send in a wave of TIEs. They only need to actually make it to the target, first because they are TIE's, who cares if they die, and second, you are already flying to their position. Feel free to pick them up as you pass.

 welshhoppo wrote:
They make a point of ties having short range in ANH just before they run into the death star. They comment how the tie can't be too far from its base. Then it makes a beeline for that small moon.

Sure, but that was something big enough and far away enough to be mistaken for a celestial object, not a ships a fraction of the size that appear to be within modern conventional cannon range

(hell, almost close enough to be under the wingpspan of the Supremacy if it turned sideways )

Also, star wars fights always happen in visual range..... For reasons.....

Indeed

Star Wars is a Space Opera not intended to be realistic. The space fights are more reminescent of a fight between naval vessels or WWII dogfighting. And that's completely fine.

The problem is that even if a universe is not realistic, does not mean it cannot be internally consistent. This thing of the fuel can be acceptable but is really stretching it. And all to lead to a conclusion, the "FTL Missile", that raises a lot of question on why FTL weaponry has not been used in-universe.

Also, I re-watched just to check the battle near Endor in RotJ. Lando and Akbar discuss quickly a change of strategy in a scene that suggests mutual trust and respect.
Now think about what they did with Admiral Purplehair.

I do have nerdy issues and complaints with the various technology bits but I do realise they're "comic book guy-ey" and Star Wars is always space fantasy anyway...

But yeah, I'll just say, the various things didn't really endear me to the film, like suddenly... planet!

Yeah the EU books consistently pointed out that sublight engines used fuel faster than lightspeed. So running away in normal space make no sense until this planet appears (with no star nearby btw). And if lightspeed missiles are so good why not just have asteroids with engines on them to eliminate capitol ships Everytime they pop up?

With regards to the movie as a while I saw it yesterday and after sleeping on it I'll saw my opinion has not improved. The plot holes are big enough to swallow a death star.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

Also, I re-watched just to check the battle near Endor in RotJ. Lando and Akbar discuss quickly a change of strategy in a scene that suggests mutual trust and respect.
Now think about what they did with Admiral Purplehair.

Imagine how much better the movie would have been if they had this quick conversation:

Poe: Why are we just running? We can't win
Purple: We are retreating to a rebel base where we can call for help
Poe: I have an alternative plan. It involves a small team, one shuttle, and may save our capital ships
Purple: Make it happen. The fleet will proceed to the base as planned in case you aren't successful.

Now it's not "pointless sub-plot", but "failed plan" and eliminates a lot of really bad decisions.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
Star Wars is a Space Opera not intended to be realistic. The space fights are more reminescent of a fight between naval vessels or WWII dogfighting. And that's completely fine.

The problem is that even if a universe is not realistic, does not mean it cannot be internally consistent. This thing of the fuel can be acceptable but is really stretching it. And all to lead to a conclusion, the "FTL Missile", that raises a lot of question on why FTL weaponry has not been used in-universe.

Yeah, and if that were an option, I'm not sure why they wouldn't have tried that earlier, sending one of the smaller ships that simply got pasted to go do it...