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Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







Spoiler:


P <------>B
/\
|
\/
F <------ Ro
|
|
\/
Ra<----> K


Hopefully noone should be making fun of the DC CW shows after this film, at least...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/18 02:18:43


 
   
Made in us
Hangin' with Gork & Mork






Apparently there is a bit of a reference to all this in Rogue One.

Spoiler:
When they are in the Imperial stronghold with all the experimental data one that is mentioned specifically is Hyperdrive Tracking tech. Makes sense the First Order would be piggybacking on the Empires research.

Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
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New Orleans, LA

Saw it Friday.

Meh.

Rogue 1 is way better

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 kronk wrote:
Saw it Friday.

Meh.

Rogue 1 is way better


but dat Throne Room battle tho...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/18 02:51:27


 
   
Made in us
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain






A Protoss colony world

I just saw the movie this afternoon and I thought it was good, but not great. Just like TFA. It does leave me wondering where they will go with Episode IX, though.
Spoiler:
The porgs were just a massive distraction, but they were really cute, so I don't mind too much.
That bit dialogue between Poe and General Hux was awesome! Having a guy in a little starfighter troll the commander of the mighty space fleet was pretty funny.
I'm very glad to see that they didn't go with the rumored big gay love story between Poe and Finn. Nothing against homosexuals, but it would have been there purely for real world political reasons and that would have cheapened it. It did seem that Finn might have found himself a new girlfriend, though.
I loved that bit with Luke projecting himself onto the planet. The look on Kylo Ren's face...
The one thing that really, really bothered me was the complete lack of knowledge of basic physics by the filmmakers. Starships that run out of fuel don't just slow down and stop, they just can't adjust their course or speed any more. You don't have to keep applying thrust to keep moving. It's something Star Wars has never gotten right, though, even in the old movies.

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Made in us
Mutating Changebringer





New Hampshire, USA

Saw it this morning.
I was unimpressed. I had a hard time staying awake. Probably the most boring of the saga. Not as bad as episode one but pretty close.

Pros:
Spoiler:
Good special effects. Chewbacca got a good amount of screen time without being shoe horned in. New ship designs looked nice.
Hyperspace collision was incredible and probably the only reason I'd ever watch the movie again.


Cons:
Spoiler:
Way too much "humor". Almost every good scene was ruined with a lame joke. Those stupid penguin... seriously, are they a sentient species? If they're just animals then their reactions are silly. If they're sentient then why would they ever follow Chewbacca around?
Where did Luke find a mile long fishing spear on an island with a single dead tree? How did he get the fish off the end of the hook? Don't say he used the force... He turned it off, remember?
That Poe/Hux phone call... If I had gone to the theater by myself I would have walked out right then and there. That first scene made the film DOA for me. At that point I just stopped caring and immediately felt the hatred I felt at the end of of Episode 1.
Snoke... Pointless.
Finn... Pointless.
Phasma... Pointless.
Rose... Pointless.
Del Toro... Pointless and perhaps the most blatant deus ex machina ever.
Casino scene... Pointless (Keep your James Bond/ Oceans Eleven plots out of Star Wars please).
Hux... Pointless.
The Jurassic Park woman... Pointless.

What was with the whole "Man of Steel" Princess Leia?
How come all the women in the movie had perfect hair and make up? Were they not as stressed and weary as the men?

Those stupid racing animals... Wth was that all about?
That fake chicken Chewbacca was eating. Like... 100%
plastic prop. Perfectly cooked over an open flame... So perfect it was a stiff as a board. How much do you think that prop cost? Probably more than a $8 rotissery chicken which would have looked far more realistic. Why have a fire to cook anyway? Why not cook and stay warm inside the Falcon?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/18 04:26:14


Khorne Daemons 4000+pts
 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




 Paradigm wrote:

Kylo and Rey are running parallel, both starting out as inexperienced and powerless in VII and both affirming their opposing allegiances in in VIII. To continue that, I expect both will rise to become exceptionally powerful in IX, both figureheads of their respective causes and supremely powerful with their side of the Force.

Questions.

What are their causes? This has bugged me for both the new films. The Resisty was separate from the Republic for... reasons, and the First Order was the cosplay Empire attacking the Resisty but also the Republic also for... reasons. But what does either faction actually support as a cause? What do they want in any way at all? Do they have any goals? Do the people working for them have any sort of expectation for what the galaxy will look like if they win? Does Ren have any particular goals in mind beyond 'be grandpa?' Did Rey pick up any personal desires beyond 'wait in a wasteland to be fetched' and, well, 'not be kidnapped?'

As for potentially exceptionally and supremely powerful figureheads (which is a bit confusing- if they're that powerful, why would they just be figureheads?)... what would either of them do? Just have a duel to the death for lack of anything better to do? Does TLJ set up anything to happen in episode 9? Are there stakes or goals still in play for anyone to pursue?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/18 04:56:53


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




 kronk wrote:
Saw it Friday.

Meh.

Rogue 1 is way better


Don't get the love for Rogue1. It was watchable but everyone involved lacked charisma and the movie didn't really advance Star Wars lore in any way. Also ending, though very tense, was very contrived.

Mr Vetock, give back my Multi-tracker! 
   
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Ship's Officer





California

Yeah Rogue One had too much blatant fan service in there, some cringey characters like the IP man guy. They even throw in the friggin guys from the mos eisley cantina. I think potential for a good movie is there but it needs to be recut and remastered. Some stuff needs to be removed, including all of the moments with mr IP man chanting those lines over and over. The CG on Tarkin and Leia is unforgivably bad. Honestly these movies are going into parady pastiche territory real quick.

I think TLJ makes Rey a confirmed mary sue as well. There isn't even any debating it now.

 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






 Thargrim wrote:
Yeah Rogue One had too much blatant fan service in there, some cringey characters like the IP man guy. They even throw in the friggin guys from the mos eisley cantina. I think potential for a good movie is there but it needs to be recut and remastered. Some stuff needs to be removed, including all of the moments with mr IP man chanting those lines over and over. The CG on Tarkin and Leia is unforgivably bad. Honestly these movies are going into parady pastiche territory real quick.

I think TLJ makes Rey a confirmed mary sue as well. There isn't even any debating it now.


The Rey is a Mary Sue crap is nonsense. If Rey is a Mary Sue then EVERYONE in starwars is a Mary Sue.

Anakin is a mary sue for randomly being the most powerful person on record or whatever. Then he murders a bunch of children, and then mary sues his way into force ghost jedi heaven because he protected his own kid. That totally makes up for the decades of murder and willfully participating in the killing of an entire planet.

Lukes a Mary Sue.

Han Solo, the biggest Mary Sue of all. His every character flaw is actually a benefit to him and everyone loves him even though hes basically a horrible drug dealing smuggling piece of gak of a person.

We follow these people as the main characters because they are exceptional. Following regular or crappy people would be boring.

Rey is no worse, and often better then the other protagonists in the other movies.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/18 06:45:05



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




Oh, come on. She's an orphaned scavenger on a hell planet who is routinely shortchanged on basic rations to the point that she doesn't even bother to protest. She should be malnourished, half dead, scarred and generally look like she has skin the consistency of shoe leather.

Instead, she's
an engineering prodigy,
a crack pilot in space or atmosphere, doesn't matter, regardless of the lack of aerodynamics of a ship she's never flown before, doing maneuvers experienced pilots can't pull off in maneuverable fighters;
an expert staff fighter,
knows droid system language,
skilled climber,
can kill a man casually with her second ever shot with a pistol,
Effective light saber fighter, despite never touching one
And can learn complex Jedi mind tricks and other force abilities instantly as she needs them
And she's what... Twenty?

Yeah, doesn't fit a Mary Sue in any way at all.

Just like that 'not a bad pilot' farm boy who needed coaching (even through the climatic moment) and formal training and a fairly unsuccessful smuggler.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/18 07:46:28


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






Voss wrote:
Oh, come on. She's an orphaned scavenger on a hell planet who is routinely shortchanged on basic rations to the point that she doesn't even bother to protest. She should be malnourished, half dead, scarred and generally look like she has skin the consistency of shoe leather.

Instead, she's
an engineering prodigy,
a crack pilot in space or atmosphere, doesn't matter, regardless of the lack of aerodynamics of a ship she's never flown before, doing maneuvers experienced pilots can't pull off in maneuverable fighters;
an expert staff fighter,
knows droid system language,
skilled climber,
can kill a man casually with her second ever shot with a pistol,
Effective light saber fighter, despite never touching one
And can learn complex Jedi mind tricks and other force abilities instantly as she needs them
And she's what... Twenty?

Yeah, doesn't fit a Mary Sue in any way at all.

Just like that 'not a bad pilot' farm boy who needed coaching (even through the climatic moment) and formal training and a fairly unsuccessful smuggler.


Luke, an orphaned farmer on a crap planet who bulls eyes wamp rats in his t16 (apparently only about a meter big, a feat other trained pilots think is nigh impossible) a crack pilot and excellent gunner in a space dog fight despite never having left his gak planet. Knows droid language. Kills a bunch of trained storm troopers the first time he uses a gun in an actual fight. Able to hold his own with a light saber despite his only training being MAYBE a week on a ship in hyper space and not particularly intense training. Learns force tricks instantly as he needs them like shooting those proton torpedos into that shaft without a targetting computer.

Anakin, a slave kid who can speak droid language. Builds a protocol droid from scrap at the age of 7 (that droid is fluent in 6 million forms of communication, which implies that anakin is fluent in 6 million forms of communication since he programed that droid).. Ace pilot who takes out an entire trade federation space station on his own. (again age 7). Knows force tricks at age 7 and picks them up as he needs them. Capable of leaping out of vehicles falling hundreds of feet and landing without injury. etc etc...

The entire cast of starwars always, seem to be incapable of being hit by blasters or explosions from any trained elite troopers of a military order that brings the galaxy to it's knees.

That fairly unsuccessful smuggler takes out the galaxys most successful bounty hunter while blind.

A ship gets torn in half, the explosion takes out hundreds of people in a room wearing armor. The 2 people not wearing armor are unharmed. The people standing in litterally every direction around the unarmored unharmed people are all dead.

Again... it's no different from ANY other character in Starwars. They are all ridiculous. If your upset about Rey why are you NOT upset about Luke or Anakin? Finn? Poe? C3-PO? R2-D2? Han Solo? Yoda? Rose? The new splicer guy? Jar Jar Binks who accidentally wipes out a gak ton of droid soldiers without suffering a single scratch and then works his way into being a senator?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/12/18 08:32:21



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






I always assumed that Anakin built C-3PO from spares in Watto's junkyard; Impressive mechanical and electronic engineering, but it didn't imply to me that he programmed a protocol droid from scratch.

Still, I agree with the main thrust of your argument.

I like the porgs, though. I take it no-one in the Star Wars galaxy has laws about introducing invasive species?
   
Made in gb
Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?





UK

Voss wrote:
 Paradigm wrote:

Kylo and Rey are running parallel, both starting out as inexperienced and powerless in VII and both affirming their opposing allegiances in in VIII. To continue that, I expect both will rise to become exceptionally powerful in IX, both figureheads of their respective causes and supremely powerful with their side of the Force.

Questions.

What are their causes? This has bugged me for both the new films. The Resisty was separate from the Republic for... reasons, and the First Order was the cosplay Empire attacking the Resisty but also the Republic also for... reasons. But what does either faction actually support as a cause? What do they want in any way at all? Do they have any goals? Do the people working for them have any sort of expectation for what the galaxy will look like if they win? Does Ren have any particular goals in mind beyond 'be grandpa?' Did Rey pick up any personal desires beyond 'wait in a wasteland to be fetched' and, well, 'not be kidnapped?'

As for potentially exceptionally and supremely powerful figureheads (which is a bit confusing- if they're that powerful, why would they just be figureheads?)... what would either of them do? Just have a duel to the death for lack of anything better to do? Does TLJ set up anything to happen in episode 9? Are there stakes or goals still in play for anyone to pursue?


Their causes are self explanatory and have been from the start of TFA. The First Order are The Bad Guys who have significant military power, are in a stalemate with the Republic (inferred from the fact they'd not already been wiped out, they clearly have significant territory, fleet capacity and resources) and want to reinstate The Empire. The Resistance are the group actively standing against that in defence of The Republic.

Ren's goal is the acquisition of power for power's sake. Despite not being a Sith, nor holding the title Darth, he still stands by the tenets of Sith teachings (Passion> Strength> Power> Victory). In killing his Master, he becomes the Master (I doubt he'll take an apprentice, though I wouldn't be against it) and by stepping up to lead the First Order he gains power over swathes of the galaxy and the ability to bring the rest of it to heel shortly.

Rey's goal is a little more muddy. I imagine she'll give up any attempt to redeem Kylo now, he's too far gone, but she must still decide whether she wants to stay true to the ways of The Jedi despite Luke's warnings or become something new. With his sacrifice, Luke placed his renewed faith in her to continue the Jedi way while learning from its troubled history. Whether or not she does that is something we'll see in IX.

As for stakes going forward, there definitely are. The entire Rebellion now exists inside one beat-up old freighter. The First Order are weeks away from total control of the galaxy. The Last Jedi is gone. It's not a cliffhanger in the same way TFA was (which is good, as they don't need to pick up IX exactly where TLJ left off and can jump forward a bit) but the Good Guys are in a bind, the Bad Guys are ascendant and there's a lot of unfinished business. Rey and Kylo have a score to settle, we still don't know Leia's fate, Poe will have to step into his new responsibility as de-facto Rebel leader, Finn has to decide what he's going to become.... So yeah, there's plenty to look forward to.

Just because there are no 'mysteries' that can fuel 'CONFIRMED!!1!' videos on Youtube for the next two years, doesn't mean the story lacked stakes or failed to set up a fascinating third instalment.

 
   
Made in gb
Drakhun





 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I always assumed that Anakin built C-3PO from spares in Watto's junkyard; Impressive mechanical and electronic engineering, but it didn't imply to me that he programmed a protocol droid from scratch.

Still, I agree with the main thrust of your argument.

I like the porgs, though. I take it no-one in the Star Wars galaxy has laws about introducing invasive species?


Which only goes to show how much of an idiot Anakin is.

Oh wow you made a protocol droid to help your mother. She's a slave Anakin, what in the seven winds of the force is she going to need a protocol droid for?

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Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?





UK

 chromedog wrote:


I also liked the little bit at the end with the kid. Showing that even absolute nobodies can be force users again


I loved that. To me, it's not just it's meaning in the film, it's a nod to every kid whose ever stood in the garden with a broom handle/torch//tinfoil tube/long stick and pretended it's a lightsaber (so, I'd like to think, basically every kid since 1977... ). It was also a nice shot to close the film on, as I think giving the final shot to a particular character like TFA did wouldn't have worked; people would attribute too much importance to that and I can't think any character 'deserved' the closing shot more than any other.

Though I'm sure The Internet will spend the next 2 years tying itself in knots trying to work out who That Kid is, given the lack of any other mystery!

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





England: Newcastle

Spoiler:


Good:

Pure eyecandy
Music Score
Lukes send off with the two suns
Some of the Imperial humor

Bad:

Snokes Death
Lukes Death
Luke and Leia being failures
Reys parents being "revealed" as what we were basically told they were in VII

Killing off Snoke is an issue because:

* Rian Johnson claimed his characters shouldn't be a wiki page and so back story isn't important. But good characters tend to have wiki pages written about them; not the other way around. I cannot understand a director claiming that under developing his characters is a good thing. He also basically admits to making stuff up as he went along. This is the man helming a new trilogy and he already shows his disdain for character and world building.

* Kylo Ren and Hux are not intimidating characters. They are joke characters who are just slimy and Rey already beat Kylo Ren and he only beat Snoke by a cheap shot. Supreme Leader Ren behaved like an impulsive brat at the Battle of Krait. Neither of these can hold a film as the lead villain.

* They made such a big deal about his origin and convinced people that there was a depth and deeper significance behind his character. This amounts to pure bait and switch as it turns out he is just "generic dark side user" who appeared from nowhere. Why would a writer show clear disdain for fans taking an interest in his own characters?

Luke:

* It is not okay to depict Luke, the main hero of the original trilogy as a failure who could not refound the Jedi Order. Especially when they are being so Mary Sue with Rey and having her set up to do just that. Why bring a character just to beat us over the head for three hours about how he was a failure? Its disrespectful to demean the original trilogy to make your own characters look good.

* There was no reason for Luke to die in that scene. They clearly wanted him out of the way, just like the rest of the original cast so that Rey can reform the Jedi Order and save the galaxy. This isn't passing the torch, its committing suicide with the torch.

Reys Parents:

* Much like Snoke, you should never build up a mystery when there is no mystery. We are told in the last film that Rey was abandoned on Jakku. Our starting assumption is that they are just normal people until proved otherwise. To be told they are ordinary people is not a revelation and it shouldn't be a revelation for the character either.

* I have read a lot of defenses about this because it makes Rey "one of us". But I don't get that at all. It confuses the notion of family identity, legacy and mythology; which can have a very powerful resonance in story telling. A good example is the Starks from Game of Thrones. Theres a whole identity and mythology built around simply being a member of that family which is beautifully conveyed. Its not because the show or books are selling an elitist line. I really doubt people who read fantasy books about Kings or the peasant finding out hes royalty and are ardent royalists. All this does is take away the idea that Rey is someone of significance to the story. She is powerful simply because the plot has demanded it and given her all these abilities without actually trying or training.

* On that point. I do not understand why Disney seems to think we won't be impressed if we see Rey need to train with her lightsaber or spend more than 20 seconds practicing instead if just winging it and winning every time. Even Wonder Woman spends a lot of time training on Themiskyra learning from her fellow Amazons and shes literally a Goddess who we are meant to be in awe of for most of the movie. Just have her start as a Jedi Master if you want her at that power level. They had a pretty clear opportunity to do just that in this movie and willfully chose not to despite enormous criticism over precisely these things. Even Snoke notes that she has never held a lightsaber before in her life. Believe me, I am the last person to complain about a powerful female character being awesome; but it has to make sense.

"A few rotten apples"

* I've noticed a ton of reviewers sites seem incredibly biased against any criticism of the movie. Firstly they claim its only a small number of people, despite only a 56% audience score on Rotten Tomatoes. 46% is more than a few. A few is more like the Force Awakens which had an 88% approval rating.

* They've also taken an extremely negative view of this criticism on the grounds that it subverts expectation whereas the Force Awakens was criticized for being too much like the original trilogy. This is people muddying the waters. People complained about FA for being a carbon copy of the original. LJ is really continuing that trend with whole sequences taken from the trilogy. The straight forward explanation is that it has taken the story in a direction a substantial number of people took exception to. People are obviously more bothered by Snoke/Luke/Rey than they were by the flaws of the previous movie.

* Basically Rian Johnson has taken a massive turd on some of the most intriguing plot points from the Force Awakens and has gutted this trilogy.






Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Paradigm wrote:
 chromedog wrote:



Though I'm sure The Internet will spend the next 2 years tying itself in knots trying to work out who That Kid is, given the lack of any other mystery!


I don't think so at all for a few reasons.

* All the questions we had at the end of FA have either been proven to be unimportant.

* LJ does not raise any new questions.

Why will people ask new questions or do lore videos when Disney put so little thought into their own characters and story. Snokes just generic Mr Dark Side who comes out of nowhere, says a few lines and is promptly killed.

It proves that they are shallow story tellers. A Song of Ice and Fire this is not. So it confirms that there aren't complex reasons or well thought out explanations to any of this story. The First Order has ships because reasons. Snoke exists because reasons. The Republic didn't learn about the FO rearming because reasons. To Rian Johnson and JJ Abrams these things are irrelevant. Such shallow story telling is not worth analyzing or anybody's time.

Basically all the Star Wars geeks have just been slapped across the face by Disney and I don't see why after being so badly burned they'll go back to making theory videos when its clear they're just making stuff up as they go along.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/18 13:57:41



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The reason people are happy about Rey having ordinary parents is that, especially with the old EU, the sense of scale was really lacking. Everything involved the same planets and the same characters, with every person and event somehow related so that they could milk the cash cow of nostalgia instead of coming up with new ideas. Having Rey be Luke's daughter or whatever would have been a similar lack of imagination, that in a whole galaxy full of uncountably many people everyone of significance in a new story has to be related to the characters in the old one. But thankfully Disney found the courage to break the cycle and make new characters with their own stories to tell, who don't meet any cash-cow-milking nostalgia until they're established on their own. They did it with Poe, they did it with Finn, and now they've confirmed that the fan speculation was all nonsense and they did it with Rey.

Also, remember that the actual movie never hinted at Rey having important parents, that was entirely fan speculation. Nor is the revelation that her parents aren't major galactic figures. It's why they abandoned her. She comforted herself with the idea that her parents didn't really abandon her, that there was some greater cause that they were serving. They might be nobody, but at least they were good. But nope, she's on her own, there is no more comforting lie.

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 Peregrine wrote:
The reason people are happy about Rey having ordinary parents is that, especially with the old EU, the sense of scale was really lacking. Everything involved the same planets and the same characters, with every person and event somehow related so that they could milk the cash cow of nostalgia instead of coming up with new ideas. Having Rey be Luke's daughter or whatever would have been a similar lack of imagination, that in a whole galaxy full of uncountably many people everyone of significance in a new story has to be related to the characters in the old one. But thankfully Disney found the courage to break the cycle and make new characters with their own stories to tell, who don't meet any cash-cow-milking nostalgia until they're established on their own. They did it with Poe, they did it with Finn, and now they've confirmed that the fan speculation was all nonsense and they did it with Rey.

Also, remember that the actual movie never hinted at Rey having important parents, that was entirely fan speculation. Nor is the revelation that her parents aren't major galactic figures. It's why they abandoned her. She comforted herself with the idea that her parents didn't really abandon her, that there was some greater cause that they were serving. They might be nobody, but at least they were good. But nope, she's on her own, there is no more comforting lie.

I think that having a force sensitive person randomly pop up is normal in the universe. Anakin, Yoda, all the Jedi of the prequels show no hint of having inherited such feature. Is a bit like the psychic powers in 40k, in a way. So, yeah. Is true that is nice that the fact that she is a "random" makes the galaxy bigger. I would argue that they did everything in every other aspect to make the galaxy smaller, but that's about it.
My problem is Rey as a character. She has shown a very fast development as a character, way faster (and not littered with continuous failure and need for help from friends) than Luke. She fixes the falcon, learn the force, speaks with droids and Chewbacca, beats in a swordfight a guy trained by luke skywalker. I see they are doing a continuous subversion of the usual tropes but this comes at the cost of logic.
When I pointed out the Sue-ish character of Rey, back then, people told me that in the next movie we would have seen either that she has Skywalker blood, or that she had her memory cancelled. "wait the next movie, it will make sense". I find such sentence almost insulting, but I waited. What we have now?
I would argue an even worse situation. For the sake of another subversion, we don't really feel the training as something Luke had with Yoda. I did not perceive a true mentoring. I don't see her struggle and fail like I did see with Luke.
Along with the fact that the background of Finn implies a completely different character, these are the things that, along with setting inconsistencies, characters and plot points with no beginning and/or no end, throw me out of the movie. It feels so artificial.
For Rey more than anything else, because I have the feeling that writers in general are unable to write proper modern female characters. Thay are either a damsel in distress or an action heroine too perfect end efficient compared to the male counterparts.
I miss a character like Ripley dearly.
For the life of me, I cannot understand all the praise.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/12/18 15:07:42


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 Peregrine wrote:
The reason people are happy about Rey having ordinary parents is that, especially with the old EU, the sense of scale was really lacking. Everything involved the same planets and the same characters, with every person and event somehow related so that they could milk the cash cow of nostalgia instead of coming up with new ideas. Having Rey be Luke's daughter or whatever would have been a similar lack of imagination, that in a whole galaxy full of uncountably many people everyone of significance in a new story has to be related to the characters in the old one. But thankfully Disney found the courage to break the cycle and make new characters with their own stories to tell, who don't meet any cash-cow-milking nostalgia until they're established on their own. They did it with Poe, they did it with Finn, and now they've confirmed that the fan speculation was all nonsense and they did it with Rey.

Also, remember that the actual movie never hinted at Rey having important parents, that was entirely fan speculation. Nor is the revelation that her parents aren't major galactic figures. It's why they abandoned her. She comforted herself with the idea that her parents didn't really abandon her, that there was some greater cause that they were serving. They might be nobody, but at least they were good. But nope, she's on her own, there is no more comforting lie.


That's a huge mischaracterization of the EU. It added A LOT of new planets, species and locations in the Star Wars mythos. You also have plenty of new ideas like the Mandalorian Wars and Yuuzhang Vong to name a few. Take The Old Republic MMO. Yes, you do have a lot of worlds from the films. But you also have lots of new worlds like Belsavis, Drommund Kaas, Voss and Balmorra. I mean the Vong invasion is a multi book series detailing a galactic invasion, the EU did not lack for a sense of scale. If anything the new trilogy has been intensely parochial and narrow in scope boiling down to a few skirmishes in the Outer Rim; their wider implications only alluded to.

Which is my point. If your fans take a very keen interest in the character you don't slap them in the face. That sort of thing only tends to dampen peoples enthusiasm. Especially the way this is done in the film. It needlessly belabors the fact Rey is nobody and seems to set up something significant when she falls into the Dark Side well. That is purposeful misdirection and felt like it was aimed less at Rey and more at the audience.

We knew that they abandoned Rey because we see them fly off. It was not a meaningful revelation that they abandoned her. You actually see the abandonment. Rey never says they had a more complex reason for leaving. She simply says they'll be back. There really isn't a positive spin put on this by her.

You're saying we should respect Rey for being an ordinary person, like us who makes her own legend? Well:

1) Why should I sympathize with Rey for being an ordinary person? Nobody ever says "I like you because you're a perfectly average person". Its a meaningless concept. What we do is we qualify this with their character, where they come from, what they have done and basically do everything to pull that person from obscurity. So basically a hero cannot be an ordinary person by definition. So making Rey ordinary does nothing for her character.

2) Rey isn't like us. She has been chosen as a champion of the light by the force. They both haven't done enough to develop her character or through sloppy writing have rubbed me the wrong way. The intent is clearly, like Daenerys, that this is a powerful female character tempered by having a kind nature and an emotional vulnerability. However, she is simply made master at everything without ever even picking up a lightsaber; so her power is not something we are left in awe of but creates confusion. Her kind nature is lost in an attempt to make her look tough. Its one thing to pour scorn on Kylo Ren and belittle him, its another to do so to people on your own side. Whilst her emotional vulnerability like running off after Maz tells her about her vision and trying to redeem Kylo simply made her look foolish and that she cared more about herself or Kylo than the fate of everyone else in the galaxy. In fact it made her seem selfish and petty.

3) Rey hasn't made her own legend. Po blew up Starkiller base. Finn the first Stormtrooper to defect. Luke saves everyone on Krait. Leia leads the Resistance to safety. So far Rey has beaten a wounded emo, beat some red armoured stormtroopers and lifted some rocks. That's two films in which she hasn't done an awful lot. By this point Luke had blown up the Death Star, brought down two AT AT walkers, trained with Master Yoda, survived a fateful encounter with Darth Vader where his hand was chopped off. I am not saying Rey should be like Starkiller from Force Unleashed; but she really hasn't done an awful lot for all the complaining over her being OP. I have no doubt in the third film she will refound the Jedi Order, finally kill the emo and make her blue double bladed lightsaber to finally turn her into Satele Shan from The Old Republic MMO. So as of this film they have not made a legend of Rey.



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 Paradigm wrote:

I loved that. To me, it's not just it's meaning in the film, it's a nod to every kid whose ever stood in the garden with a broom handle/torch//tinfoil tube/long stick and pretended it's a lightsaber (so, I'd like to think, basically every kid since 1977...

That's fine, but is a nod to adults that were those kids. Barring the fact that is another thing that puts you outside the movie, is time subtracted to adventure.
As a kid, I did not want to be a kid in that universe. I wanted to be Luke, Han, Lando (and the girls Leia).
What we have now in place of those four?

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 Kaiyanwang wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
The reason people are happy about Rey having ordinary parents is that, especially with the old EU, the sense of scale was really lacking. Everything involved the same planets and the same characters, with every person and event somehow related so that they could milk the cash cow of nostalgia instead of coming up with new ideas. Having Rey be Luke's daughter or whatever would have been a similar lack of imagination, that in a whole galaxy full of uncountably many people everyone of significance in a new story has to be related to the characters in the old one. But thankfully Disney found the courage to break the cycle and make new characters with their own stories to tell, who don't meet any cash-cow-milking nostalgia until they're established on their own. They did it with Poe, they did it with Finn, and now they've confirmed that the fan speculation was all nonsense and they did it with Rey.

Also, remember that the actual movie never hinted at Rey having important parents, that was entirely fan speculation. Nor is the revelation that her parents aren't major galactic figures. It's why they abandoned her. She comforted herself with the idea that her parents didn't really abandon her, that there was some greater cause that they were serving. They might be nobody, but at least they were good. But nope, she's on her own, there is no more comforting lie.

I think that having a force sensitive person randomly pop up is normal in the universe. Anakin, Yoda, all the Jedi of the prequels show no hint of having inherited such feature. Is a bit like the psychic powers in 40k, in a way. So, yeah. Is true that is nice that the fact that she is a "random" makes the galaxy bigger. I would argue that they did everything in every other aspect to make the galaxy smaller, but that's about it.
My problem is Rey as a character. She has shown a very fast development as a character, way faster (and not littered with continuous failure and need for help from friends) than Luke. She fixes the falcon, learn the force, speaks with droids and Chewbacca, beats in a swordfight a guy trained by luke skywalker. I see they are doing a continuous subversion of the usual tropes but this comes at the cost of logic.
When I pointed out the Sue-ish character of Rey, back then, people told me that in the next movie we would have seen either that she has Skywalker blood, or that she had her memory cancelled. "wait the next movie, it will make sense". I find such sentence almost insulting, but I waited. What we have now?
I would argue an even worse situation. For the sake of another subversion, we don't really feel the training as something Luke had with Yoda. I did not perceive a true mentoring. I don't see her struggle and fail like I did see with Luke.
Along with the fact that the background of Finn implies a completely different character, these are the things that, along with setting inconsistencies, characters and plot points with no beginning and/or no end, throw me out of the movie. It feels so artificial.
For Rey more than anything else, because I have the feeling that writers in general are unable to write proper modern female characters. Thay are either a damsel in distress or an action heroine too perfect end efficient compared to the male counterparts.
I miss a character like Ripley dearly.
For the life of me, I cannot understand all the praise.


I mean I get the impression that they are rolling with the idea that the force guides your blade and actions. So her amazing abilities is due to her connction to the force and is meant to clue us in that she is Force Sensitive.

HOWEVER, that's not how the force works. Luke was a prodigal knight, as was Anakin, but they still had to train and seek guidance of masters. You can still be a prodigy and have amazing natural talent; but the expectation is still that you need to practice and train. That sentiment comes from real life and I think it makes sense. But with Rey, as you point out, she is depicted as being a master at whatever she does and we're explicitly told she does not need any training. Within a few days she has went from not picking up a lightsaber to besting the big bad and killing several elite Praetorian Guard.

It all leads to the feeling that Rey has done nothing to earn or master these abilities on her own. Without the force she would be nothing.


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Alternatively, Rey is just a very talented person? There exist, in real life, people who are exceptionally good at a large number of things, proficient in various fields moreso than most people would ever be.

Given a combination of her upbringing, where she'd have to learn to fight/repair/bluff to survive and maintain a constant mental fortitude to avoid just going mad alone in the desert, and her natural connection to the Force which appears to be very strong indeed, even passively, her level of competence is not hard to believe.

 
   
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I thought The Force Awakens was decent but they played it too safe. The new one is just filled with many moments where you just throw your hands up in the air. Without being too specific (for now) here are my major gripes:

1. Plot holes, plot holes, plot holes!
2. Ignoring character development hinted at from VII
3. Women treating men like incompetent donkey-caves
4. 3 hour chase scene
5. Superman character
6. Fuel
7. Gravity in Space (those damn bombs)
8. Purple hair bitch in general
9. SJW themes
10. Characters killed off really badly
11. The entire Casino scene
12. Phasma
13. General Hux
14. Rey's lineage
15. Snoke's backstory
16. Knights of Ren
17. Luke was not Luke (Mark even agrees)
18. Titmilk
19. Curvature of lasers in space
20. The Resistance
21. ....I am tired of typing now.
   
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 Paradigm wrote:
Alternatively, Rey is just a very talented person? There exist, in real life, people who are exceptionally good at a large number of things, proficient in various fields moreso than most people would ever be.

Given a combination of her upbringing, where she'd have to learn to fight/repair/bluff to survive and maintain a constant mental fortitude to avoid just going mad alone in the desert, and her natural connection to the Force which appears to be very strong indeed, even passively, her level of competence is not hard to believe.


See my point above. Even a prodigy who can play the piano still needs to practice and have been taught at some point. This could all easily be resolved by spending a minute to show Rey learning stuff. I am actually a lot more likely to appreciate somebody who works to earn something and succeed than somebody who is just a master at everything.

Rey says she has never piloted a ship in her life and Snoke notes she has never held a lightsaber in her life. Yet is a total master managing to outfly Tie Fighter Pilots and beat the emo.

Reys choice of weapon is a quarterstaff. Why should we assume she has any proficiency with a sword? Much less one made of energy which is meant to be very difficult to master, as shown by Luke practicing on the Falcon.



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 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Have they actually killed Phasma off this time or are they going to pull another Houdini with her?

Might be amusing if she shows up in the next movie with charred silver armour, facial burns and an even more bruised ego.

Judging by how terrible these last 2 films have been with character development - I bet she does come back burned and chared from Ep 8 - only to die quickly in Ep9 with still 0 character development.

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Backfire wrote:
 kronk wrote:
Saw it Friday.

Meh.

Rogue 1 is way better


Don't get the love for Rogue1. It was watchable but everyone involved lacked charisma and the movie didn't really advance Star Wars lore in any way. Also ending, though very tense, was very contrived.


It didn't need to advance the star wars lore. It was a one off Star Wars Story. It was fast paced, had cool gak blowing up, and a spunky, sarcastic reprogrammed Imperial Droid.


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Rogue One is like "War and Peace" compared to FA and TLJ. So gud.


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 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Rogue One is like "War and Peace" compared to FA and TLJ. So gud.
I disliked Rogue One previously, but after TLJ I find it to be a much better movie.
   
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 Lord Scythican wrote:
3. Women treating men like incompetent donkey-caves


Probably because they are exactly that. I mean, Finn and Poe aren't exactly impressing here...

9. SJW themes


Uh, what? I don't recall anything about that, unless you count "there are characters who aren't white men" as a SJW theme.

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