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I do genuinely think that the scenes involving Kylo, Rey and/or Luke are the best parts of the film.

Not enough to redeem it (hehehehe), but the best and most watchable parts of the film. - Aside from a handful of great visual shots, at least.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Snoke was simply a plot device for Kylo Ren, who is the real bad guy of this trilogy. A lot of Star Wars villains are all flash and little substance. They only exist so the heroes have something to fight. Boba Fett is a great example of no personality or history. He existed to move the plot and then he dies in an embarrassing fashion. All of the development came after the sarlac burp.

Boba had the detail needed for his role. His motivations are simple: is "get Han to Jabba, get money".
Simple =/= stupid

Which is the same level of detail most Star Wars villains have. Kylo is probably the most developed villain so far, and most of that is simply the skywalker whine. Star Wars =/= Simple

Are you arguing that
I) Snoke and Fett need the same level of detail, especially in their motivations
II) Regardless of (I), both are given a proportionally comparable level of detail (especially in their motivations)?
I... am not sure about that.

 Xenomancers wrote:

This has to be a joke. Kylos acting is trash - and it's not helped by the fact that his character is trash.

Agree to disagree.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Snoke was simply a plot device for Kylo Ren, who is the real bad guy of this trilogy. A lot of Star Wars villains are all flash and little substance. They only exist so the heroes have something to fight. Boba Fett is a great example of no personality or history. He existed to move the plot and then he dies in an embarrassing fashion. All of the development came after the sarlac burp.

Boba had the detail needed for his role. His motivations are simple: is "get Han to Jabba, get money".
Simple =/= stupid

Which is the same level of detail most Star Wars villains have. Kylo is probably the most developed villain so far, and most of that is simply the skywalker whine. Star Wars =/= Simple

Boba is a filler character. His part in the original trilogy is incredibly small. I think his name is only mentioned once by Han Solo and he dies right after. People liked his character after the fact because of action figures and micro machines of slave 1. You could honestly remove him from SW and it would have no effect on the story.

The same can not be said of Snoke. Without Snoke - there would be no story. A character of this importance to get no plot development but you have time for Chewy to howl at space penguins for 2 minutes? come on man.

I loved the Reylo team up. I was pretty gutted when it snapped back to Same Old Star Wars. BTW, by "Same Old Star Wars" I don't mean ESB ... I mean RotS. The end of the Reylo team up was not an echo of Vader and Luke on Bespin ... it was more of an echo of Anakin and Padme on Mustafar.

TLJ is much more in line with the PT than the OT.

 Scrabb wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

This has to be a joke. Kylos acting is trash - and it's not helped by the fact that his character is trash.

Agree to disagree.

So you are serious. Okay. Yeah I'm not going to argue with your opinion but...man. What do you consider bad acting?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
I loved the Reylo team up. I was pretty gutted when it snapped back to Same Old Star Wars. But it, by "Same Old Star Wars" I don't mean ESB ... I mean RotS. The end of the Reylo team up was not an echo of Vader and Luke on Bespin ... it was more of an echo of Anakin and Padme on Mustafar.

TLJ is much more in line with the PT than the OT.

"it was more of an echo of Anakin and Padme on Mustafar."
I LOLed. True - some of the same lines are even spoken. This was the most thought provoking moment in the film for me. You can see Anaken in him at that time.

Nothing that happened in the OT called into question Palpatine's background. Meanwhile in TFA and TLJ, understanding how the FO is so powerful, why Kylo Ren wants to be Darth Vader/hates Luke Skywalker, and potentially who Rey is/what the Awakening is, all of these elements seem to be connected to Snoke's background. So yes it is relatively simple to see why people are disappointed that Snoke was discarded like a soiled napkin halfway through TLJ.

 Xenomancers wrote:

I LOLed. True - some of the same lines are even spoken. This was the most thought provoking moment in the film for me. You can see Anaken in him at that time.

So Rey has a thing for the dark, dangerous boy that killed his Father. A father that is a galactic hero.
Another success for the feminist writers I guess. I want to cry.

Her obvious girlboner over his giant moist nude chest was pretty awkward especially because it was not yet clear whether or not they are siblings/cousins.

Man...how awesome would this have been.

Rey -
"I love but....I can't join you - you killed your father"

Kylo
"I killed our father"

Movie ends.

Actually would have been a better ending...maybe.

I mean, if anything could push this closer to feeling like fanfiction ripped off the internet it would be an incest twist.

FWIW, I thought Driver and Ridley both did a great job with their lines and that their scenes toegether were really well written.

I don't understand, however, how people can say praise TLJ for breaking with previous SW movies. Because that's false.

If Kathleen Kennedy and Rian Johnson wanted to do something different they would have stuck with the Reylo team up. This would be really complex but it would have driven a major theme (I guess?) of the movie, that the Force is greater than light and dark, so much more strongly. I would have loved to see the Reylo team up last through most of Episode IX, with Finn and Poe (and Luke and Leia!) really questioning Rey's choices while Kylo's relationship to the dark side and the FO goes haywire.

But TLJ went the arch conservative route of unwinding the Reylo team up almost as soon as it happened, so we could have the traditional good guy versus bad guy thing.

 Xenomancers wrote:

So you are serious. Okay. Yeah I'm not going to argue with your opinion but...man. What do you consider bad acting?

No offense taken. Not a fan of overacting. But don't really think about it much.



Did Adam Driver not portray a dude trying to be stoic who was actually super not that way? Because I basically imagined Kylo's internal monologue the entire movie to be some variation of "I must scream but have no mouth" kind of a reverse Snape occlumency type deal, as a means of standing next to Snoke without getting mind read and zapped.

Better than the force awakens, still struggling to be as good as Rogue One. It was worth seeing it on the big screen at a theater that sells beer. I gave RogueOne an 9/10 and Force Awakens a 5/10 last time.

6/10 - well worth the watch, but the final installment really needs to flesh things out

 Stevefamine wrote:
Better than the force awakens, still struggling to be as good as Rogue One. It was worth seeing it on the big screen at a theater that sells beer. I gave RogueOne an 9/10 and Force Awakens a 5/10 last time.

6/10 - well worth the watch, but the final installment really needs to flesh things out

I agree with you on R1. I give both TLJ and TFA a 5/10 though...

I give TFA a B- and both R1 and TLJ get C-.

If I had a soul this movie would have crushed it. It might be my and my daughters hyping it up over the last 2 years since TFA but I sat there for minutes once the movie ended trying to decide what the hell just happened. The girls looked at me like they had no idea what they should do. Flabbergasted does not cover it.

OK, so Reys partentage - Easily could be a manipulative lie. I don't think it is though as Rian Johnson has stated that his intent was for her parentage to be nothing of note.

Losing the face mask- not very Vader-esque. Honestly I like that he had it. It fell in line with how the Sith do business.

Snoke dying without even talk of what his beginnings are within the movie. It has been discussed in novels but after the hype in TFA to see him so easily discarded seemed wrong and underwhelming.

Rey- Am I the only one that noticed she had the books of the Whills?

The books- No discussion of the guardians or the grey order. Just books with stuff that are not page turners according to Yoda.

TFG that we are losing Johnson as a writer/director for the last installment.

Over all prediction, an end to the Skywalker lineage. New stories, Rey as the new badass and Fin as the new scoundrel.

Saw it with the wife at midnight on Wednesday & again on Saturday with friends.

I enjoyed pretty much everything in the film, not sure if it should all have been in the same film. Hell, there came a point late in the film where I'm thinking; "ok, that was a cool final act, time to wrap it up", and then they went on an had a whole other act. Yeeash. Long film.

I will say that it has the best explanation of the 'Force' I've seen on film. Just perfect.

 Pendix wrote:
Saw it with the wife at midnight on Wednesday & again on Saturday with friends.

I enjoyed pretty much everything in the film, not sure if it should all have been in the same film. Hell, there came a point late in the film where I'm thinking; "ok, that was a cool final act, time to wrap it up", and then they went on an had a whole other act. Yeeash. Long film.

I will say that it has the best explanation of the 'Force' I've seen on film. Just perfect.

I agree. stupid mitichlorins.

 Manchu wrote:
Her obvious girlboner over his giant moist nude chest was pretty awkward especially because it was not yet clear whether or not they are siblings/cousins.

Hardly. There was no evidence in the movie for them being related, only fan theories. And I don't think it's fair to accuse the movie of being awkward based on fanfiction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
So Rey has a thing for the dark, dangerous boy that killed his Father. A father that is a galactic hero.
Another success for the feminist writers I guess. I want to cry.

...

You really are determined to have your anti-feminist crusade, aren't you...

I love Ren. I hated him at the start of TFA but he has really grown on me.

He is like an overly emotional insecure teenager Snape. He is really flawed and that's not a bad thing.

I was hoping he'd be more of a Darth Revan type figure, someone who willingly embraces the Dark Side to grow in power enough to combat a greater threat to the Galaxy (Darth "Emperor Valkorian" Vitiate / Supreme Leader Snoke).

Peregrine, I said it was not clear at that point whether they were related not that I thought they were.

 Manchu wrote:
Peregrine, I said it was not clear at that point whether they were related not that I thought they were.

It also wasn't clear that Rey wasn't Luke in disguise. It also wasn't clear that Rey wasn't Han's mother in a time-travel plot. It also wasn't clear that Rey wasn't Palpatine's secret apprentice. The fact that the movie didn't explicitly say "Rey and Kylo are not related" doesn't mean that the theory that they are was anything but fan speculation, or that a scene is awkward because of fan speculation. TBH I don't understand why anyone would have ever thought that they were related, it was such an obviously stupid idea that the only suspicion at all was "oh god, please don't let Disney do something that awful".

 Peregrine wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Peregrine, I said it was not clear at that point whether they were related not that I thought they were.

It also wasn't clear that Rey wasn't Luke in disguise. It also wasn't clear that Rey wasn't Han's mother in a time-travel plot. It also wasn't clear that Rey wasn't Palpatine's secret apprentice. The fact that the movie didn't explicitly say "Rey and Kylo are not related" doesn't mean that the theory that they are was anything but fan speculation, or that a scene is awkward because of fan speculation. TBH I don't understand why anyone would have ever thought that they were related, it was such an obviously stupid idea that the only suspicion at all was "oh god, please don't let Disney do something that awful".

Because Disney is cherry picking elements from the old Expanded Universe to adapt into its new Star Wars films, TV shows and canon books. Fans speculated that Kylo Ren and Rey would reflect the Jacen and Jaina Solo dynamic (relatives who are pitted against each other when one falls to the Dark Side).

Look, the scene was awkward in itself. It was shades of Fifty Shades, or at least Twilight. It was weird. Two years of speculation, willfully enabled by Disney, that these two might be related just made it that much weirder.

 Peregrine wrote:
TBH I don't understand why anyone would have ever thought that they were related, it was such an obviously stupid idea that the only suspicion at all was "oh god, please don't let Disney do something that awful".

Yes, who would expect sexual tension between relatives in a Star Wars film, in trilogy desperate to rehash the originals.


Unreasonable!


Not saying I personally expected them to make out or be related (largely out of disinterest in what two blocks of wood might do), but not understanding where people might get the idea from is being pretty oblivious.

 Peregrine wrote:

You really are determined to have your anti-feminist crusade, aren't you...

My only (burning) crusade is against the GW design team.
I have the maximum respect for first and second wave feminism. I have concerns about the third wave but more concerning the methods than the aims (I consider myself a liberal in most matters, albeit I think many liberals, especially in the media, are sanctimonious dickheads that have lost contact with reality).

I have less patience for hypocrites; and Disney is incredibly hypocrite. They show themselves as modern and inclusive, but regardless they shallow statements, they wrote horrible female characters.
- Rey is a Mary Sue, see above my points about her infallible yet pointless character
- Phasma has ben introduced as a strong antagonist, it became a farce
- The admiral came out as stubborn, incommunicative, incompetent. Compare with lando and Akbar in RotJ, as an example.
My comment above is about the chilling implication of the attraction for Ren. This would be essentially the fethed up relationship shown in that modern horror (not in the sense that has vampires) that is Twilight. I find it unacceptable from those that write that "the force is female".
Are these women supposed to be an inspiration for the little girl? Gods save us. Compare them with what Luke was before this movie.
Before this movie.
Same hypocrisy for the black character. He was supposed to be tragic, or at least conflicted, but I think that the writers could not help themselves pigeonholing him into a joker in TFA, and then put him in an authentic containment plot in TLJ. How can people see this and say that is all fine is beyond me.

Rey is destine to be a Jedi, all of them are Mary Sues. Luke didn't look that way only because he is such a feth up. His impetuousness forces him to make bad decisions. And then he whines about it. If Leia had been the one Ben/Yoda trained she would've have been a lot like Rey.

Phasma is the new Boba Fett.

The Vice Admiral is a Vice Admiral, all military officers hate being second guessed by the lower ranks. It pisses them off.

I would have really liked if instead of creating a new character as Vice Admiral, they would have had Akbar fulfill that role. They could have even thrown in a line when he is about to go to hyperspace, "Now, who's trapped?" At least his death would have done something as opposed to being a thowaway line.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Rey is destine to be a Jedi, all of them are Mary Sues. Luke didn't look that way only because he is such a feth up. His impetuousness forces him to make bad decisions. And then he whines about it. If Leia had been the one Ben/Yoda trained she would've have been a lot like Rey.

No, Leia still would have been interesting for the time.

Rey's problem is exactly the same as Finn's problem, as well as Poe's problem. If you swap these characters around, nothing changes. If Finn were the secret force user (which was entirely plausible thanks to the advertising of Finn with the lightsaber), no part of TFA's story is different. Rey can stalk off in the cantina to seek a ride back to Jakku, only to be interrupted by the FO attack. Finn can be kidnapped, questioned, then free himself with instant force mastery, while Rey is on the rescue team that doesn't matter (because the target of the rescue is already free). If Poe had walked away from the crashed Tie Fighter instead of Finn, he would take the exact same role (except play it straight, rather than lie), except it might actually make sense if he were the pilot and she were the gunner. Then Finn could show up later for no apparent reason in a Resisty X-wing.

Same with this film. If F goes for jedi training, R could question authority and P could go on the pointless side quest. Or P could head off to find Luke (if he had picked up the lightsaber of destiny at some point during TFA), F could question authority, and R could go on the sidequest with the new character (or an old character). It makes no difference at all which character does what, which is a nice way of showing off how shallow they all are.

Kaiyanwang wrote:Akbar in RotJ

Akbar is a single meme. Beyond that he slobbers out a couple uninteresting lines of exposition from the depths of an entirely unconvincing suit.