The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Guaranteed Spoilers Within

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**Voss**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Voss wrote:
You don't? The movie doesn't even bother dealing with her at all post Snoke. She goes into the ship seeking redemption for her kidnapper. She fails. We don't see her reaction to that. We don't see her leave. We don't see her gain any knowledge at all about the current state of the Resisty. She just turns up later, guns a-blazing with a Yeehah! Quips on her lips about rocks, and a sudden complete tone shift as she dons the Annointed Hero role because the last five minutes of the movie demands it for movie purposes, not because it has anything to do with her character arc, not even a simplistic 'what have we learned today?' There is almost a reaction shot when she learns the one person she interacted with in the last movie has a new love interest, but it's left lying on the ground.

If you can't understand why post confrontation Rey is a joke, I suspect you just aren't willing to. Rey the character doesn't move in the second half the film. She's still paralyzed by Snoke. The Annointed Hero is removed from the big ship to the falcon, then the Annointed Hero moves some rocks to set the pieces up for the next film. The craft of film-making is entirely abandoned, and Johnson just shuffles tropes and roles around to provide Abrams the exact same starting point as the this film: The Resity flees a planet to escape the first order. In doing so, he stops treating them as characters, and just shoots some uninspired set pieces with tropey roles going through the motions- the villain does the stupid villain rant, the sacrifice does his thing, the sidekick learns about love, and the hero saves people just by wandering back into shot.

Yeah but weren't your expectations subverted?

I mean you expected a well-crafted movie with a moving storyline that really tugged your heartstrings and made you invested in the heroes, didn't you? It's a Star Wars film after all.

But your expectations were subverted weren't they? Rian Johnson really got us there, hoo boy! I definitely feel much better knowing that he threw the franchise under the bus simply to subvert expectations.

I know this is sarcasm and you largely agree with me, but I have to honestly say no. My expectations were completely fulfilled. Of the 9 star wars films, 5 were utter trash by my reckoning, and Jedi was shaky. Rogue One subverted my expectation by being a modern SW film that wasn't crap.

But then, i don't think the current trilogy has much to recommend in the way of heroes. The main characters were quite firm in their respective stances (in TFA) that they didn't want to be there, and didn't want to be involved. In fact, most of the main characters from the original story didn't want to be involved in the new story either.

What was supposed to tug at my heartstrings in TFA made me roll my eyes at the telegraphed cliche. There might have been an emotional reaction to it in TLJ, when Luke learns about his friend's death, but... like most of the scenes with the potential for real emotional impact, the camera wandered off.

As for Johnson, he completely fulfilled my expectations- a no name filmmaker produced a whole lot of nothing.

**Kaiyanwang**

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
RJ remembers how much you can "tell" with just a camera...until he doesn't.

I think this is a fair statement. Like if the movie has been written by 2 writers and directed by 2 directors and in each group, one is smart and the other is called special by his mom.

**AllSeeingSkink**

Kilkrazy wrote:
It's about how much of a hard core fan you are. It's the hard core fans who hate the film. Everyone else is fine with it.

Just because you keep saying that doesn't make it true.

Hell, I'm a SW fan but hardly a hardcore one, I've watched the main movies, not any of the spin offs or TV series, none of the books, played a few of the video games but probably less than half of them. I think I fit right in to the "casual fan" bracket.

This "only hardcore fans hate it" thing really is t true, it might just be the hardcore fans are the ones more likely to make a 5 hour video explaining why they hate it, that doesn't mean everyone else is fine with it.

**sirlynchmob**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
I'm still a bit triggered that they were closer to Crait than Earth is to its Moon during the entire chase sequence, and not one person, either in the First Order or in Poe's merry band of mutineers, ever thought that the planet they can see out the window that the Resistance is heading for might be the thing that the resistance is heading for.

I'm sure it would be a common tactic to jump away to a random spot before jumping to your true destination. We saw in Empire they were bright enough to calculate all systems along the falcons last known trajectory after all. Then the first order showed up after the first jump which took the rebellion by surprise, random officer #2 "hey look, their trajectory takes them to this habitable system, let's go there". This again goes to the failure of the rebellions leadership though, they jumped straight to their intended destination so even without tracking the first order would have shown up. With the first order controlling the space around the planet, they could easily call in reinforcements and destroy anyone trying to save the rebels. Window or not though, they have star chars for the entire galaxy so when they go through hyperspace they don't bounce into those stars, the whole cast and crews should have known what was there.

The words of dark helmet were never more true than in this movie.
"evil will always triumph because good is dumb"

Also if the box office indicates the definitive list of which movies are better than others, than we can clearly see TPM is magnitudes better than TLJ. I guess we all just wanted to see more Jarjar.

**Kilkrazy**

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
It's about how much of a hard core fan you are. It's the hard core fans who hate the film. Everyone else is fine with it.
Just because you keep saying that doesn't make it true.

Hell, I'm a SW fan but hardly a hardcore one, I've watched the main movies, not any of the spin offs or TV series, none of the books, played a few of the video games but probably less than half of them. I think I fit right in to the "casual fan" bracket.

This "only hardcore fans hate it" thing really is t true, it might just be the hardcore fans are the ones more likely to make a 5 hour video explaining why they hate it, that doesn't mean everyone else is fine with it.

Just because you keep making that point doesn't make my point false.

The Last Jedi is a good, solid film, worth 8/10 in anyone's book who likes space opera SF films.

All the criticism is coming from people who are deeply invested in the SW extended universe. They clearly expected something that wasn't delivered, and now are criticizing the film on specious technical grounds.

The ticket sales pretty much prove everyone else is fine with it. Genuinely gakky films do not sell $1.3 billion of tickets in six weeks.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

How much did Suicide Squad sell

I'm still baffled at how this has spun out to 100+ pages. Some like the thing, others don't. And nobody is going to convince the other side.

If you didn't like the thing, ok.

If you did like the thing, ok.

**Mr Morden**

Kilkrazy wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
It's about how much of a hard core fan you are. It's the hard core fans who hate the film. Everyone else is fine with it.
Just because you keep saying that doesn't make it true.

Hell, I'm a SW fan but hardly a hardcore one, I've watched the main movies, not any of the spin offs or TV series, none of the books, played a few of the video games but probably less than half of them. I think I fit right in to the "casual fan" bracket.

This "only hardcore fans hate it" thing really is t true, it might just be the hardcore fans are the ones more likely to make a 5 hour video explaining why they hate it, that doesn't mean everyone else is fine with it.

Just because you keep making that point doesn't make my point false.

The Last Jedi is a good, solid film, worth 8/10 in anyone's book who likes space opera SF films.

All the criticism is coming from people who are deeply invested in the SW extended universe. They clearly expected something that wasn't delivered, and now are criticizing the film on specious technical grounds.

The ticket sales pretty much prove everyone else is fine with it. Genuinely gakky films do not sell $1.3 billion of tickets in six weeks.

Never read the SW EU - Don't care about it, nor do the other people I watched it with, the people I chatted to about it - who almost all said it was a crap film - not a bad Star Wars film - a crap film full stop.

4.8 / 10 according to RT actual people who paid to see it rather than critics who are paid to watch it as their job. But I guess every single person who rated it low is a superfan?????? And we get accused of being conspiracy theorists

We get it you like it - but saying that anyone who doesn't falls into a specific category is not only wrong but insulting. Many of those who watched it and said it was crap are not Star Wars superfans - some of them have only seen TFA.

We have laid out in great detail the many many flaws In this film as we see them - to which your only argument seems to be Nah nah nah can't hear you - your just evil superfans.

Ticket sales are how much was spent on going to see it - it says ZERO about if those people enjoyed it or not. Its not a hard thing to understand.

**AllSeeingSkink**

Kilkrazy wrote:
Just because you keep making that point doesn't make my point false.

Ummm, actually, yes it does, now you're just being disingenuous, I'm not sure why but you are just being wilfully ignorant at this point.

I am one of the ones making criticism and I sure as hell don't fill this criteria:

All the criticism is coming from people who are deeply invested in the SW extended universe.

So your point is made false by the fact I exist

It's also been pointed out to you by others that just because you and your family liked it doesn't mean "everyone else" did as well, the only thing needed to disprove your point is a counter anecdotal experience and that has been provided to you.

The ticket sales pretty much prove everyone else is fine with it. Genuinely gakky films do not sell $1.3 billion of tickets in six weeks.

One's called "Star Wars" do. That it flopped in places where that heritage isn't as important (i.e. China) is telling as well.

You're a smart guy KK, don't pretend you don't know the value of marketing and a brand name. There's a reason Disney paid so much for the SW license and there's a reason marketing budgets often end up bigger than the production budget. There's plenty of good but poorly marketed films that don't make huge amount of money and plenty of crap with big marketing budgets that make lots of money.

**sirlynchmob**

Kilkrazy wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
It's about how much of a hard core fan you are. It's the hard core fans who hate the film. Everyone else is fine with it.
Just because you keep saying that doesn't make it true.

Hell, I'm a SW fan but hardly a hardcore one, I've watched the main movies, not any of the spin offs or TV series, none of the books, played a few of the video games but probably less than half of them. I think I fit right in to the "casual fan" bracket.

This "only hardcore fans hate it" thing really is t true, it might just be the hardcore fans are the ones more likely to make a 5 hour video explaining why they hate it, that doesn't mean everyone else is fine with it.

Just because you keep making that point doesn't make my point false.

The Last Jedi is a good, solid film, worth 8/10 in anyone's book who likes space opera SF films.

All the criticism is coming from people who are deeply invested in the SW extended universe. They clearly expected something that wasn't delivered, and now are criticizing the film on specious technical grounds.

The ticket sales pretty much prove everyone else is fine with it. Genuinely gakky films do not sell $1.3 billion of tickets in six weeks.

if your ranking by ticket sales, which Disney raised the prices of for this movie, then TLJ is still the worst star wars film ever made. With a set up like TLJ I'm sure 9 will make less regardless of the story. I highly doubt 1/2 of the viewing audience is deepely invested in the extended universe. People went because they expected to be entertained, 50% of them were not, and those that weren't bought tickets as well. I use 1/2 because that's the views split on rotten and our own poll matched it as well.

a good solid film? do you work for Disney? how miuch did they pay you to support this movie?

I've largely ignored the extended universe, I did read Zahns version of how 7-9 could have went, and that was a good solid story. TLJ has a horrible and ultimately meaningless story which makes the rebels look dumber than a box of rocks, and comparing them to rocks is an insult to the rocks.

Because of this movie I'm going to skip the solo movie, unless it receives glowing reviews from over 90% of the viewers, and if 9 has yet another "death star" around a jungle planet and the first order is defeated by some new cute plushy toy pitch, I'd also bet more of the star wars fans and myself will give it a miss. If enough people show up and the force willing 9 loses money, then maybe Disney will pull their heads out of you know where, and start trying to make a great star wars movie with a solid story, and not a 2+ hour toy commercial.

**kronk**

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

Tarkin deleted the data for them. Unfortunately, there was a backup.

... well spotted!

**Alpharius**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
How much did Suicide Squad sell

I'm still baffled at how this has spun out to 100+ pages. Some like the thing, others don't. And nobody is going to convince the other side.

Because people keep posting in this thread?

I mean, how many times have you posted in it after your plea to end it all in here?

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

If you didn't like the thing, ok.

If you did like the thing, ok.

And both 'sides' seem to be unable to come to grips with that.

So short of a threadlock, expect it to continue.

Unless, you know, people start being the change they want to see, etc. etc. etc.

**kronk**

Alpharius wrote:

Unless, you know, people start being the change they want to see, etc. etc. etc.

Even as Meh as TLJ was, I'm still going to see all of the Star Wars in the theater, just like Marvel movies and Star Trek movies and other "blockbusters". I can't see that changing.

**Alpharius**

Ha!

That's not the 'change' I was suggesting there!

**Galef**

kronk wrote:
Alpharius wrote:

Unless, you know, people start being the change they want to see, etc. etc. etc.

Even as Meh as TLJ was, I'm still going to see all of the Star Wars in the theater, just like Marvel movies and Star Trek movies and other "blockbusters". I can't see that changing.

Agreed. And in many cases, I'll likely see certain movies more than once in the theatre (already seen TLJ twice, will likely see it once more in the dollar theatre).

Nothing compares to the theatre experience.

-

**Riquende**

Since 1997's ANH SPecial Edition I've seen every SW film not just in the cinema but also on the day of release (yes that includes the Clone Wars movie, which I took the day off work for so I could sneak in to a matinee showing unseen. I was the only unaccompanied adult in there).

I can't see that changing any time soon. My friends and I had an absolute blast ripping TLJ to shreds in the bar afterwards (we poked a lot of fun at Rogue One despite unanimously approving of the film overall).

**BobtheInquisitor**

I don't know why people are calling for an end to this thread. It's still pretty entertaining. Star Wars has always produced a lot of discussion.

@Sirlynchmob, so what you are saying is that we should not wake you up before we go, go, because you're not planning on going to Solo?

**kronk**

Alpharius wrote:
Ha!

That's not the 'change' I was suggesting there!

Ah, I guess i missed the meaning. Doh!

**Scrabb**

I want to get inside chewie's head. Right now he's just kind of a walking secret keeper from the audience.

Spoiler:

Something like this would be nice. Or an honorable death. His life debt is paid. Why is he doing shuttle service for a stranger instead of checking in with relatives (wookies live for centuries) or grieving Han or trying to avenge his death?

**Compel**

That's easy.

Because as a non-English speaking role and a long lived alien character in a fur suit, he and R2D2 are the characters that can in every single on-going film.

So yeah, they need to do more with him to take advantage of that.

**ScarletRose**

I'm still baffled at how this has spun out to 100+ pages. Some like the thing, others don't. And nobody is going to convince the other side.

Because some people liked/didn't like it and some have a rabid ideological drive to not just declare they don't like it but that it's "objectively" the worst movie ever made.

It's the same contrarian, regressive underbelly of the gaming community that's been creeping up everywhere lately.

**sirlynchmob**

ScarletRose wrote:

I'm still baffled at how this has spun out to 100+ pages. Some like the thing, others don't. And nobody is going to convince the other side.

Because some people liked/didn't like it and some have a rabid ideological drive to not just declare they don't like it but that it's "objectively" the worst movie ever made.

It's the same contrarian, regressive underbelly of the gaming community that's been creeping up everywhere lately.

As it's been suggested that box office returns = enjoyment of the movie, we can rank all the movies objectively and see that TLJ is the worst of the star wars franchise. We can also objective rank them by user ratings. The star wars movies have been ranked best to worst since the first 3 were made and now we're adding more to the list. Plenty of objective data to rank the movies with. You're just being over dramatic when you reduce the criticisms to try and equate it to the worst movie ever. I don't recall anyone saying that, worst star wars movie? yep, ever? probably not.

And going by the box office we can clearly see that the rocky horror picture show is the best movie ever, it's still in theaters some 30?ish years after it's release. Think of all the box office money it's made

**Compel**

Thinking about cinemas and so on... That's actually a pretty good argument for Rocky Horror...

**Mr Morden**

ScarletRose wrote:

I'm still baffled at how this has spun out to 100+ pages. Some like the thing, others don't. And nobody is going to convince the other side.

Because some people liked/didn't like it and some have a rabid ideological drive to not just declare they don't like it but that it's "objectively" the worst movie ever made.

It's the same contrarian, regressive underbelly of the gaming community that's been creeping up everywhere lately.

Its more that those who dare to find fault with this gem of a film have been accused of

Having ulterior moties
being rapid superfans
and other stuff.

It is an awful movie - def the worst I have seen for quite some time.

**Future War Cultist**

It’s sad to see Star Wars’ second chance going astray. I had such high hopes for it. I liked TFA (although the more I think about it the more I think it’s not very good

) but TLJ just...doesn’t sit well. At least Rogue One was good.

The only major weaknesses in the story of the original trilogy that I can think of are Leia turning out to be Luke’s twin sister (let’s face it, that was just to solve the love triangle

) and the Ewoks taking down the emperor’s ‘best troops’. Apart from those two issues, it’s a good story. The new one however is going badly wrong. And the prequels...no I won’t go there.

Maybe 30-40 years from now somebody will remake Star Wars in its entirety, all fixed up.

**Unit1126PLL**

I actually like the prequels, in retrospect.

There are elements I hate, but at least I can look past those at the vast world it's created. With these sequels, I feel like the whole setting could be in a single solar system and it wouldn't change a thing.

**kronk**

Hayden Christensen is a horrible actor, and the romance with Natalie Portman was comical at best.

Phantom Menace did give us the Darth Maul lightsaber fight and the Duel of Fates song, though.

**BobtheInquisitor**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
I actually like the prequels, in retrospect.

There are elements I hate, but at least I can look past those at the vast world it's created. With these sequels, I feel like the whole setting could be in a single solar system and it wouldn't change a thing.

So, the prequels only positive takeaways are some matte paintings and the incredible cross sections books about spaceships? Yeah, that sounds right.

**Kaiyanwang**

ScarletRose wrote:

I'm still baffled at how this has spun out to 100+ pages. Some like the thing, others don't. And nobody is going to convince the other side.

Because some people liked/didn't like it and some have a rabid ideological drive to not just declare they don't like it but that it's "objectively" the worst movie ever made.

It's the same contrarian, regressive underbelly of the gaming community that's been creeping up everywhere lately.

So, we should have spent some post praising the movie, an then start another thread about another beautiful masterpiece from Disney to praise.
I find utterly ridiculous and dismissing your attitude. People, in agreement or not with the statement that the movie is bad, spent time arguing and analyzing point.
Compared elements with other movie, media, real world. I don't accept all the comparisons but I respect the effort and the will to analyse elements in a forum dedicated to their discussion.
What is the meaning of your post?
Same with gaming. GW and other companies pulled some good and some bad move, this is supposed not be discussed? Why have Dakka then.
Why don't call it when something is wrong or not working. What are we supposed to do?
Watch another flashy movie with brain-dead script, clap our hands, and then wait for the next? No thanks.
Or watch a movie that we enjoyed, and discuss its elements with other posters that liked it, or that attack it with good or bad reasons?
Who are you to enter in a thread and establish that is enough? Or that criticism is contrarianism?

**Galef**

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
I actually like the prequels, in retrospect.

There are elements I hate, but at least I can look past those at the vast world it's created. With these sequels, I feel like the whole setting could be in a single solar system and it wouldn't change a thing.

So, the prequels only positive takeaways are some matte paintings and the incredible cross sections books about spaceships? Yeah, that sounds right.

Let's not forget Ewan McGregor. He is by far the best part of the Prequels. The whole trilogy really should have focused on his story arc and the loss of his pupil.
Maybe include him in a love triangle with Anakin and Padme. Could have made the romance stuff a bit less "cringey". Or moreso

-

**Kaiyanwang**

kronk wrote:
Hayden Christensen is a horrible actor, and the romance with Natalie Portman was comical at best.

Phantom Menace did give us the Darth Maul lightsaber fight and the Duel of Fates song, though.

Should one be so hard on Christensen, I ask?
Who in the world would deliver properly the "sand lines"?

@Unit I do agree on the prequels as nice for the worldbuilding for the most part. The general, rough story is an archetypal fall. Just the way has been developed is.. eeeh. Good parts and worse parts. I agree that camera work etc is better in TFA and TLJ.

@Galef in a way it is. Vader becomes almost a decoy protagonist... the final duel is with Obi-one. Ep III almost transforms it in a Sheev + Obi story.