Hi guys, I get asked alot why I don't give my sergeants reelly reelly gud stuff.

Well, I feel, there are three categories, each with three questions to ask yourself before you jump in:

heres my prosess:

1. do sergeants last. in fact, do all equipment last. sort out what how many FOC and of what your taking, and what kind of situation you will be fighting in.

1. for the army:
What weapons does the army need
Do you have a sufficient anti-MEQ/EEQ [AP3-] weapons?
That is, plasma cannons, sternguard ammo [to an extent] and tanks to deal with them?
Does your army have sufficient Anti-large weak squad support
(as stalin said, quantity is a quality of it's own.)
that is, can you deal with large contingents of guard and ork?
Do you have good anti tank?
What if you're going up against land raiders?! you need something to kill 'em.

Realise the necesary use for the squad in question

2. For the squad
What role does the squad play? if it's an anti-light infantry squad, maybe going heavy weapon isn't the best.
so, I'd guess, if you're fighting with assault marines, stay with bolt pistol and chainsword. the power sword isn't worth it.
If you're fighting heavy infantry, the likes of terminators, maybe a powersword or plasma pistol will be useful.
What toughness are you likely to face?
If availible, storm bolter and relic blade is always the best it provides decent power, and decent shooting and range. but, given the fact that marines can't take that, it is a nice idea to try weapons that will deal with hard troops. T8 will not stand well against power fists. T4 it wouldn't matter as much. T2 and your throwing away attacks. if you're likely to face units more powerful then T6 in large contingencies [more then 4.] take a powersword.

3. for the sergeant himself:
is he shooting at the same range as the rest of his men? are they shooting further or shorter then he?
so, you've given him a bolt pistol, but everyone else has a bolter. throwing away shots, much? Try to keep the range as simmilar as possible.
What is the sergeants purpose in the squad?
For most squads, the Serg is there just for the sake of his Ld and juicy attacks. but, if the squad is more likely to assault, like a flamer Combat squad, he might benefit from a chainsword/pistol group. or, maybe you need some heavy close support. he might then benefit from a storm bolter and a power fist.
how likely is the sergeant to fufil his role?
if the squad may end up getting bogged down, maybe it's not worth that extra 35 points. maybe it's better off without them.

...must resist...urge to... correct grammar...and spelling...

I was playing my friend who played Eldar. He told me 'Damnit, I hate it when your marine squads have a powerfist!" Since that day all my marine squads have them.

a sergeant with a power fist is about the only guy in the squad whose worth a *%$! in cc.
AF

Everyone else is there to spell 'Hidden'...before the Sarg yells 'Powerfist'.

Basically, the fist adds flexibility to the squad. It still doesn't make them a master at anything, but makes expands their number of trades.

You can give a lot of things to a Space Marine sergeant but at the end of the day you'll always want a power fist. After all you never know when you'll be in close combat with a Wraith Lord.

I agree it depends on the role.

If you are facing MEQ, PW or PF. PF gives a lot of flexibility but for a very high cost. PW is one extra attack at initiative but at lower strength. PF is generally better but if I intend for the unit to stand off, I would rather have a Plasma Rifle and perhaps a Combi-weapon on the sergeant. If I am counting on squad flamers or melta guns, that unit is going to be in HTH so the PW or PF really makes sense on the sergeant.

I don't agree with the PF on every sergent as 4 squads like that is 100 points. I can field more firepower for those kind of points and unless the PFs are guaranteed to get upclose and personal, the bolter, BP and CCW can be just fine and I will repurpose those points elsewhere.

I prefer putting pws on my sarges, since they get to strike at normal initiative, and they can get an extra attack from a pistol (4 attacks on the charge).

agree

It's a personal call.
Vs. MEQ the fist wins out by a little.
Vs. GEQ the power wins out by a little.

Instant kill T4 models/IC.
Threaten tanks more.
Hurt MC's, etc, etc.

Fist can do more though, but you pay more for it of course.
Which ever you decide, it's a personal call of course, but fitting them for their role is best...which could be with or without equipment.

Never heard of GEQ before. What's the equivalent to IG?

T3 stuff with 5+ or worse armor, a combination of both or just one of them.
Guants, Guards, Eldar, etc.

2/3 of the above are Meched up though........

Mine are going to be PF and combi weapon likely flamer or melta.

I always arm mine with Power Weapons as standard, with Plasma Pistols if I have enough points spare.

I used to give my sgts power swords. Then I moved on to power fists. I found I never really wanted the tactical squads in combat anyways, so now they don't get any special weapons at all, unless its a combi flamer.

I like to equip sgts with Storm bolters if they're in transports so him and a special weapon can fire on the move plus whatever weapon on the vehicle. If I give them that and I plan to have them in the front line then I usually drop the point to grab a power fist. The power fist 8 times out of 10 makes up well over its cost in points. I once killed a biker warboss with power klaw in close combat the turn he charged me while only losing three Marines.

I do the Power Weapon/Plasma Pistol with my Tactical Gun Line Squads, good MEQ figting ability if I have to.
My Assualt Sargents ar Power Fist/Plasma Pistol for Transport and Dred Hunting.
I use to go with Paird Lighting Claws back when you could, but now they are for my VV Squads
My Devistator Sarg's have Bolt Gun, Chain Sword.

I prefer [Combi-Flamer / Powerfist] for my tactical sergeants.
Which are a pair of 10 man Flamer / Multi-Melta squads in a Rhino.

Dracos
I agree. unless you're running a dedicated assault unit 1 power weapon or power fist just isn't going to make that big a difference. combi weapons though? yes. always.
AF

labmouse42 wrote:I was playing my friend who played Eldar. He told me 'Damnit, I hate it when your marine squads have a powerfist!" Since that day all my marine squads have them.

That's kind of funny. I find them to be a rather big pointsink. Just my 2/100th of a dollar.

Anyway,good article, I guess. It's usually easy to tell before the game starts what you want and it's a good idea not to add the sergeant's upgrades until the end. (Build a 1900 point army or so and change your sergeants/veterans right before the game)

I find that a Power Weapon does make the difference a lot of the time. They usaly make the difference between Loosing the Assualt by 1 and Winning by 1.
Now if both side have Power Weapons it makes no difference.

Dracos posted my opinion already. Of course, I'm totally gay for Combat Tactics.

on that note I wish this game had a built in side board system, like in magic. It's dumb to tell me I have to stick with flamers if that's what I bought. Like we're not smart enough to pack a few plasma guns in that rhino just in case. idk even modern armies can do that. seems like the game should have a little better flexibility in that regard.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:on that note I wish this game had a built in side board system, like in magic. It's dumb to tell me I have to stick with flamers if that's what I bought. Like we're not smart enough to pack a few plasma guns in that rhino just in case. idk even modern armies can do that. seems like the game should have a little better flexibility in that regard.
AF

That's a actually a really good point. Go tell GW

AbaddonFidelis wrote:on that note I wish this game had a built in side board system, like in magic. It's dumb to tell me I have to stick with flamers if that's what I bought. Like we're not smart enough to pack a few plasma guns in that rhino just in case. idk even modern armies can do that. seems like the game should have a little better flexibility in that regard.
AF

Really there's no reason that you'd find a plasma gun in the back of a rhino. It's been issued to a space marine or its being stored in the chapel. Its a rare and finite resource. Then take the Imperial Guard; they take the weapon they are given and are grateful to have one; Orks don't really care so long as it sounds good; Eldar have it planed in advance; Tau have their one and only gun or if they're in their suit its built on; Nids can't really remove their limbs and swap them for the right one.

Now that said I'm all for having cards for things like orbital strikes (large blast), smoke screens (4+ cover save), targeting data (+1BS), Mine field and other nastiness. It would make the game feel part of a larger battle, that has been going on for weeks, months or even years.

Tri wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:on that note I wish this game had a built in side board system, like in magic. It's dumb to tell me I have to stick with flamers if that's what I bought. Like we're not smart enough to pack a few plasma guns in that rhino just in case. idk even modern armies can do that. seems like the game should have a little better flexibility in that regard.
AF

Really there's no reason that you'd find a plasma gun in the back of a rhino. It's been issued to a space marine or its being stored in the chapel. Its a rare and finite resource. Then take the Imperial Guard; they take the weapon they are given and are grateful to have one; Orks don't really care so long as it sounds good; Eldar have it planed in advance; Tau have their one and only gun or if they're in their suit its built on; Nids can't really remove their limbs and swap them for the right one.

Now that said I'm all for having cards for things like orbital strikes (large blast), smoke screens (4+ cover save), targeting data (+1BS), Mine field and other nastiness. It would make the game feel part of a larger battle, that has been going on for weeks, months or even years.

Which is why you'd pay point for it? Rhinos last longer than marines, so it wouldn't be stupid to put weapons in them.

I like a Powerfist and a Combi-melta on mine. With the other melta in the squad you have a pretty good chance of wrecking most tanks, and the fist seals the deal on vehicles andMCs.

Or walkers. Do not get caught in CC with a walker without a fist.

Tri
they're a rare and finite resource true. then again marines are the elite of the elite, the very tippity top of the imperial armies. if anyone would have unfettered access to special weapons it's them. Especially considering the vaunted "flexibility" of your average tac spud.
AF

It's a good thing they are flexible units, that's for sure!
I would give a few pfs, but not all, since giving them all pfs will cost way too many points. I don't like combi weapons too much, but they have uses, for sure.

Fluff and rules don't mix.
This is no mystery.

As for the jab at Tactical Squads, it's funny how much you hate them, and yet they are still the standard that the 'universe' competes against.

They are flexible, just not by your definition of the word, but this is for everyone else to read though.

I find them to be flexible.

I think that using your Tactical Squads... well... tactically is a key to winning a lot of games with SM. You gotta know when to hold em, know when to fold em. Know when to walk away and know when to run.

As said, they do any role you want, and hold their own easily. They might not be the best troop choice, but they sure ain't the worst.

sorry, at the end of second paragraph, should write powerfist.

I'm not against power fists. I just don't like them that much.

personal opinion, I know fists have saved my Tacs more then once, and against things like 'stealers, where you will hit last anyway, it's a really excelent choice.

Powerfist = Dreadnought Insurance

Plus when you have a fist you don't feel near as bad about having the combi-weapon since you won't lose attacks. I almost always run PF+Combi-Flamer or PF+Combi-Melta. If I have points I'll some times be known to run Melta-bombs in tandem w/ the fist so I can challenge a land raider or death or glory a battlewagon if needed. It may cost you in points but, I'd rather have 4 units that can kill anything on the board than 5 units that can't handle a dread or LR.

I tend to run my Tac Squads w/ PF, Combiweapon, meltabombs, Flamer/Melta (opposite of what I did for the combi- weapon, versatility is key), and Las. Though I have been tempted by the versatility of the missile launcher of late. My squads tend to run in the 250ish range w/ transport. A bit pricey, but they can engage any target.

Samus_aran115 wrote:
Which is why you'd pay point for it? Rhinos last longer than marines, so it wouldn't be stupid to put weapons in them.

? If you're talking about paying points for them then why wouldn't you always take it any way?

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Tri
they're a rare and finite resource true. then again marines are the elite of the elite, the very tippity top of the imperial armies. if anyone would have unfettered access to special weapons it's them. Especially considering the vaunted "flexibility" of your average tac spud.
AF

I don't agree with that. Every space marine can use a bolter but not every space marine can use a special weapon.

Actually every Space Marine CAN use any special weapon. They're trained as scouts to use every weapon in the Space Marine Arsenal, then become Devestators, earn the trust to handle a heavy weapon, move on to Assault MArines if they can handle the role change, move on to tacticals and from there its 1st company.

Fuegan wrote:Actually every Space Marine CAN use any special weapon. They're trained as scouts to use every weapon in the Space Marine Arsenal, then become Devestators, earn the trust to handle a heavy weapon, move on to Assault MArines if they can handle the role change, move on to tacticals and from there its 1st company.

Oh right. Of course they get the special more "expensive" roles before becoming the basic tac marine. GW messed that up big time. It should be the other way around IMO. You begin as a tactical marine and then specialise.

Yea, they retconned it...and I agree, GW messes up gaks on alot of things.

I have some issues with some ideas on here, particularly on how good a PF is.

Usefulness against normal infantry: 2-3 attacks, killing 1-2 (counting for misses and rolls of 1 to wound) Not exactly exciting for the points spent.

Usefulness vs walkers: Most walkers are AV 12 that you will be fighting. A powerfist has 2 attacks. 3 if you charge (and why would you?) So 1 hit, and you need to roll a 5 to pen (as a glance won't destroy it) then you need to roll a 5+ to destroy. It ends up being like a 5% chance of destroying it with a powerfist. So you are paying 25 points (a hefty investment) for a 5% chance of destroying a dred? Personally I say no thanks. I would rather chose to fall back and regroup. Its nice what combat tactics and They ATSKNF does for marine's options.

Against T8: 2 attacks (as in why would you charge the few T8 MCs?) 1 hit, .5 wounds. If you are fighting a Ctan, you lose. If you are fighting a wraithlord, you probably tie, but are more likely to lose than win. So how useful was that powerfist for 25 points? Maybe a single wound on a MC? I'll pass. Even against a more common T5 or 6 MC, you are still looking at just one wound on average.

So what use is a powerfist? Instant killing multiwound models. How effective is it? Not very, but you should hit and wound once, and that wound usually kills outright. So if you think your particular squad might be facing attached ICs a PF isn't a bad item to have. Its not effective against units of multiwound characters, but nothing you could give him instead would be either.

So in most situations, I would not bother with a PF upgrade. Combi upgrades aren't too bad, if you have a specific use in mind, or have a free 10 points laying around. But giving every sarge one quickly adds up. If I have the points I give some sarges a melta bomb: Its about as effective against walkers as a PF, and its very cheap. Also I can't even remember how many times I've faced an immobile tank (or just killing a drop pod for KP hunting) and didn't have anything to finish it off in shooting.

As for Powerswords: I actually like this, since you can use bolt pistol and PW. 3 attacks, 4 on charge is pretty decent at killing infantry. Its not cheap, but its not PF expensive (and it gets more attacks) The drawback? No bolter, but losing out on those shots isn't likely to matter anyways (small arms fire only matters in large quantities, losing his shots is a fractional deduction in you squads shooting output). If you are assaulting you can't even fire them to begin with, so that makes it even less an issue. I personally only use them in combat squads that are moving foward. So usually the melta or flamer squads sarge gets a power weapon. Squads that going to be back field don't (sized razorback squads, or plasma squads)

Stormbolters: This weapon is a joke. I'm paying 10 points for 2 assault bolter shots? Um yeah... This weapon is nice when it comes with the model, like rhinos or grey knights. Paying for it? I'll pass.

With all that being said, I'm usually such a miser in points that the only thing my sarge gets most games is a chainsword replacing his bolter. It doesn't help much against Meqs, but its good enough against Geqs, and it doesn't cost me anything but a bolter shot.

notabot187 wrote:Usefulness vs walkers: Most walkers are AV 12 that you will be fighting. A powerfist has 2 attacks. 3 if you charge (and why would you?) So 1 hit, and you need to roll a 5 to pen (as a glance won't destroy it) then you need to roll a 5+ to destroy. It ends up being like a 5% chance of destroying it with a powerfist. So you are paying 25 points (a hefty investment) for a 5% chance of destroying a dred? Personally I say no thanks. I would rather chose to fall back and regroup. Its nice what combat tactics and They ATSKNF does for marine's options.

So what happens when an Armoured Sentinel, Wraith-Lord, Defiler and so forth charges you? Don't say fall back you still can't regroup if there is an enemy within 6"; I've walked more then one unit off the board that way.

preach it notabot

Tri
what happens is you lose the squad.
just play so to prevent your marines getting into combat with that stuff. It's not that hard honestly.

I'm against the whole idea of spending 25 points per squad as "insurance" for one particular situation. If it isn't useful *most* of the time don't take it.
AF

Tri wrote:

notabot187 wrote:Usefulness vs walkers: Most walkers are AV 12 that you will be fighting. A powerfist has 2 attacks. 3 if you charge (and why would you?) So 1 hit, and you need to roll a 5 to pen (as a glance won't destroy it) then you need to roll a 5+ to destroy. It ends up being like a 5% chance of destroying it with a powerfist. So you are paying 25 points (a hefty investment) for a 5% chance of destroying a dred? Personally I say no thanks. I would rather chose to fall back and regroup. Its nice what combat tactics and They ATSKNF does for marine's options.

Sio what happens when an Armoured Sentinel, Wraith-Lord, Defiler and so forth charges you? Don't say fall back you still can't regroup if there is an enemy within 6"; I've walked more then one unit off the board that way.

You let a footslogging model get within assault range of you. Either you used that unit as a sacrifice, or you screwed up horribly. Getting knocked out of a transport in range of a walker/mc is in the category of screwing up. Getting out that close is in the category of screwing up by the numbers, or a clever sacrifice.

Having a good chance to regroup considering how you got to that point is better than shelling out 25 points for a very low chance of doing anything. Spend those points on other units, having a number of powerfists in your army means you aren't taking other things. Something as simple as 3 PFs (with their combined 15 percent chance to destroy a walker in CC) easily pays for a MM/HF land speeder, or even TLPG/LC razoback. Those units have a much higher chance of taking out the units PF are supposedly good at killing.

Also if they are using that model to walk a unit of the board, its not safe in combat and can be shot at (which is the goal is it not?) Once it is killed or your unit flees far enough, you can regroup safely. Having a chance to regroup and go after an objective is better than being tarpitted on your objective (and thus it being contested rather than controlled)

Monster Rain
OT is your profile picture Sauron commanding a bunch of storm troopers? lol

Good grief i see why you don't agree now. At no point should you be giving every Sergent upgrades. If you have points after making up a list and have a Sergent sat with a squad in a transport; then you take a power fist.

(Also Nids will be able to close the gap with you)

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Monster Rain
OT is your profile picture Sauron commanding a bunch of storm troopers? lol

Indeed it is! Together at last...

On the subject of ATSKNF and falling back from combat, it's really not a great idea to rely on.

You can easily be escorted off the board, as has been pointed out already. And in 5th Edition there's this "new" thing that Wraithlords and whatnot can do called Running so it's not really crazy to think that they might be able to catch you. Particularly if your Rhinos have been shot out from under you.

And let's not forget the amount of Walkers in drop pods nowadays.

^ True, Combat Tactics is not a no-brainer. Rare to get into a position that it will do well, but it will be a game changer if allowed to work.

i seem to just give my DA Vet sergeants the bare essentials (bolt pistol + chainsword) along with a melta bomb. just in case you know?. my veteran squad vet sergeant though has a meltabomb, a power sword and plasma pistol.

Tri
well 1 or 2 power fists I can see but yeah not to everyone.

You really have to discuss the points level you are playing at. At higher points levels, there is more room to afford bling like PF and PW. At lower points levels, I would rather trade two powerfists for another attack bike or a landspeeder.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:

Fuegan wrote:Actually every Space Marine CAN use any special weapon. They're trained as scouts to use every weapon in the Space Marine Arsenal, then become Devestators, earn the trust to handle a heavy weapon, move on to Assault MArines if they can handle the role change, move on to tacticals and from there its 1st company.

Oh right. Of course they get the special more "expensive" roles before becoming the basic tac marine. GW messed that up big time. It should be the other way around IMO. You begin as a tactical marine and then specialise.

No.

Assault marines is training to better their close combat skills
devastators are to better their skills with heavy weapons.

Tactical marines are a mixture of the two.

and, actually all three are considered true marines. thats why they're in power armour. [except wolves.]

Being a tactica marine is by far the hardest of the three jobs.

assault marines, your a hacky slashy.
devastators your a shooty pewwy pewwy
Tacs your a hacky pewwy.

Powerfists also have the added bonus of striking at I:1, preventing wound stacking during allocation.

uuuhhhhh.... yes that's a nice aspect of having a power fist.... but I think it's out weighed by the possibility that you wont get to swing at all.... my experience with these things is that they kill 0 or 1 guy on average.

re: the insurance argument. to me this argument is like saying "I need to pay 25-100 points in my list as insurance against my own play mistakes." just dont make the mistake. get in cc with the stuff you're likely to kill or don't get in. with tac marines that basically means dont get in cc. which is too bad bc their shooting is garbage too, but that's another discussion....

also they don't synergize well with combat squads, since the weapon relies on having a good buffer between the carrier and the guys trying to kill him.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:uuuhhhhh.... yes that's a nice aspect of having a power fist.... but I think it's out weighed by the possibility that you wont get to swing at all.... my experience with these things is that they kill 0 or 1 guy on average.

re: the insurance argument. to me this argument is like saying "I need to pay 25-100 points in my list as insurance against my own play mistakes." just dont make the mistake. get in cc with the stuff you're likely to kill or don't get in. with tac marines that basically means dont get in cc. which is too bad bc their shooting is garbage too, but that's another discussion....

also they don't synergize well with combat squads, since the weapon relies on having a good buffer between the carrier and the guys trying to kill him.
AF

Ah, the old "You think that way because you're a bad player" routine...

what can I say...

I can say this:

your saying power fists aren't any good, yet your army lacks any troops.

tis tru!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/302620.page#1811761

and abbadon, I've experienced this : ?Never underestimate any weapon. [well, except for scouts with bolt pistols and CCW.]

Captain
sorry I didnt see your post on that other thread.... umm... I can run my bikes as troops bc of kor'sarro not vulkan. I have 2 squads of troops in the army... I feel that I can get away with it for a couple of reasons... because of the mobility of the bikes for 1 (if you're getting shot at just run away and hide, their mobility is awesome) and bc of target saturation (most people won't shoot a bike when they've got assault terminators command squad and half a dozen land speeders coming at them). If I start losing bc of lack of troops I'll change my build but I'm doing pretty good right now. the fragility of the army and its weakness vs space wolves is much more on my mind than only having 2 troops.

But yeah in msu they're especially horrible.
my reason not to run them is that they're expensive and only really useful in situations where your marines should not be in the 1st place (in cc with a dread for instance) It's not that they can't be good... it's that they're unlikely to be good.
AF

Well, I'd be careful Captain Solon.
The only thing you can fault him for in that army list is listing it VERY poorly.

I am thinking people will assume Khan is on a bike, in which case the bikers are troops.

Though, that list is kinda...meh. I just think the list is a gimmick that his local meta doesn't know how to deal with or doesn't have the resources ($$$) to adapt to for him to have his 'off' comments at times.

One thing you can say is that for someone that doesn't like them, he runs with Thunderhammers.

In addition, his choice for power weapons on the command squad is highly questionable. Hammer I would not call it, even with Furious charge, it is not flexible.
In addition he severly lacks armor saturation for the raider.

Sadly, the advice I'm giving (that I feel is as objective as it can be) will fall on deaf ears.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't think he realizes that Target saturation doesn't work the way he thinks it does.
Say you have a punisher......obviously you will shoot the bikers and not the raider.

Saturation only works with 'like' units across the board...hence the 'armor'saturation of the universal competitive meta.
His saturation is all over the place.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:what can I say...

That you don't know what you're talking about, for starters?

Way to totally ignore any of the points that I made about fast or running MCs and Walkers in Drop Pods. Also, your interpretation of "target saturation" is somewhat misguided.

But since you're unrepentantly using a hack defense of bad advice, I suppose that I should use the classic counter:

Your opponents must be awful at this game.

well monster before I get to your points let me say... I've been nothing but polite to you... that I can recall... so what's up with all the hostility?

anyway...
I didnt address your atsknf comment bc it's unrelated to what I was talking about. I was talking about conducting your shooting and movement phase such that you won't get charged by the few things that you need a power fist to kill; or failing that just chump the squad. squads die. it happens. and it's ok: as long as you hurt them worse than they hurt you you're still ahead.

The other part of your original post said I shouldnt ignore walkers in drop pods. since frankly I had no idea what you were talking about I just passed over it.

you said: your interpretation of "target saturation" is somewhat misguided.
ok.... care to guide me?

anyway try not to get so upset if I say something you dont like. It's ok to just say "I disagree here's why..."
AF

MCs running into combat can be blocked, moved away from, or better yet, shot until dead. Drop pod dreds can be shot or moved away from (as they don't assault when they derp strike).

If you fail to do these things, your tac squad is pretty screwed even if you bring the PF, so why bother?

Better off running and having a chance of fighting another day. The worst thing that happens if you try to run away from a lost combat is you get drawn back into it (which is not desired, but you don't lose much) or: Running off the board, but at least you get to shoot it during your turn.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:well monster before I get to your points let me say... I've been nothing but polite to you... that I can recall... so what's up with all the hostility?

anyway...
I didnt address your atsknf comment bc it's unrelated to what I was talking about. I was talking about conducting your shooting and movement phase such that you won't get charged by the few things that you need a power fist to kill; or failing that just chump the squad. squads die. it happens. and it's ok: as long as you hurt them worse than they hurt you you're still ahead.

The other part of your original post said I shouldnt ignore walkers in drop pods. since frankly I had no idea what you were talking about I just passed over it.

you said: your interpretation of "target saturation" is somewhat misguided.
ok.... care to guide me?

anyway try not to get so upset if I say something you dont like. It's ok to just say "I disagree here's why..."
AF

Who's upset?

I disagreed with your idea that only bad players get into unfavorable assaults, you reiterated that this was indeed the case. This is nonsense.

As for Target saturation, Sanctjud has outlined it brilliantly.

Anyway, no trouble man. There's more than one way to screw a goose.

Except I'm on his ignore list, so he won't see it.
Keep up Monster lol, Darkhound and willydstyle are also ignored to for having differing opinons and defending them.

well... your post made it seem like you were upset.... making unfounded accusations using insulting language etc... when people do that I think maybe they're feeling angry. If that's you maybe you can read a book... listen to some nice relaxing classical music.... write about your feelings in a journal maybe. It's not good to hold on to negative emotions...

anyway yes it is indeed the case that only players who have made a mistake get into unfavorable assaults. most of the time. it's better to fix the tactical decision that lead to that situation, which costs 0 points, than to squander 100 points on a 1 in 10 chance of extracting the unit from the situation.

yes I know what a walker in a drop pod is. what I dont know is how it relates to our conversation. I'm a little slow I guess could you explain it to me?

as for target saturation: ok whatever.
AF

Good players will also find ways to get some of their 9 killa kans or Flyrants or hell god knows what else somewhere you'd rather not have them.

I don't think of the fists as "insurance" I think of it as something else to spank the enemy into submission with. Bad assault insurance is a tertiary benefit.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Captain
I can run my bikes as troops bc of kor'sarro not vulkan.

Psst! no. he needs to ride moondrakken. sorry.

Monster Rain
well ok do you think its better to shoot the killa kanz or to rely on your power fist.....?
I can feel this conversation winding down.........

Solon
yeah I run him on moondraken. That wasnt clear from looking at the list. sorry my mistake.
AF

Power Fists are great to have and are more versatile than power swords. However, power swords work well with plasma pistols or plasma combi-weapons in squads that are primarily for point defense and need to hold positions against attacking infantry of all stripes. I find this unit to be deadly to units arriving from deep strike and can divide into a shooty combat squad or a fighty one that can work together assasinate a monstrous creature without getting its hands dirty.

Otherwise powerfists are necessary and rule 90% of the time.

Valkyrie wrote:I always arm mine with Power Weapons as standard, with Plasma Pistols if I have enough points spare.

I never get Plasma Pistols, they're to risky- Especially if their tooled up with melta bombs and special close combat weapons. My weapon of choice has to be stormbolter.

You may make the point that PF only has 5% or so chance of working on a dread, But it is also really good for popping non LR tanks. I'd take 3 attacks at S8 over 1 attack at s6 any day. With a powerfist I can reasonably expect to hit a combat speed vehicle and have an OK chance at a cruising vehicle. Again, tactical squads are all about versatility. They need to be able to do the job of any unit on the table. If you want specialization, that's what Fast Attack, Elite, and Heavy Support Slots are for.

Power fist. I really feel for players who don't bother, and then have to play my Orks.

AP3 weaponry as a priority is not really the safest investment for competitive play nowadays, what with the prevalence of cover saves. A squad of 1kSons in a Chaos army is nice, but taking more than a single unit is redundant.

pf in one tac squad, i like the sergeant still can have his bolter, since i use my tacs for rapid fire and advance only
in my second squad i love the combi flamer, combi flamer with flamer and m launcher is still really cheap and you get nice blasts against orks and tyranids

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Monster Rain
well ok do you think its better to shoot the killa kanz or to rely on your power fist.....?
I can feel this conversation winding down.........

Right lets settle this as I've played just this sort of list. I'll give you all the best weapons so this is fair. You shoot the killer cans BS4 with lascannon odds to destroy are 33.33% then you need to get through the kustom force field 16.66% so to destroy each kan you need about 6 shots so that 54 shots to kill them all. It takes about 2-3 turns to get across the board, now assuming that you can see all the kans and you've got 8 or so lascannons you'll manage to kill about 4. If you've got a melta you kill another (odds are still about 33.%, and with kustom 16.%) (oh bolters, BTW, have odds of .92% so you'll need about a 100 shots per kan) Now you're in combat close to the edge of the board do you fall back?

Oh and that's completely ignoring the rest of the army, you'll now have swarms of ork boys with the hidden nob.

Thaylen wrote:You may make the point that PF only has 5% or so chance of working on a dread, But it is also really good for popping non LR tanks. I'd take 3 attacks at S8 over 1 attack at s6 any day. With a powerfist I can reasonably expect to hit a combat speed vehicle and have an OK chance at a cruising vehicle. Again, tactical squads are all about versatility. They need to be able to do the job of any unit on the table. If you want specialization, that's what Fast Attack, Elite, and Heavy Support Slots are for.

A powerfist has 3 attacks on the charge. If the tank moved and has rear armor 10, that is 1.5 hits, or .5 hit (if it moved over 6). 2 to glance and 3 to pen, then you need a 5 to destroy, though a 4 is often good too. Or you could just use the squads krak, sure you need a 4 to glance, but you have more attempts, and they are free. Or you could give the sarge a 5 point melta bomb, when it hits is nearly always pens.

So the powerfist is somewhat useful against vehicles that don't have AV 14, true (though in my mind not much better than using the squads krak and maybe a meltabomb) So what non LR tanks are likely to be close to a tactical squad? A rhino, costs 35, an ork trukk, costs 35, A chimera, costs 55 points. So you are going to use a sarge who has a 25 point upgrade (and don't forget the base cost too) to have a less than 50 percent chance of destroying it?

Tactical squads are about versatility. Sure, I agree with this actually. But they already have the tools to do the job you are wanting the powerfist for. Sure, its not the ideal tools to do the job, but a powerfist doesn't get it done either.

Personally the idea of punching tank to death with your fists sounds rather absurd (unless you are orks, who have nothing better).

But it's not just about anti-vehicle.
It's there as a weapon of oppurtunity (otherwise defensively).

3 Attacks is better than the 1 attack with kraks.
Else, these are three attacks going at an MC or IC.
If it's vs. MEQ's then it essntially means one kill, which is important.

Certainly (as discussed by others before) you don't spam them everywhere, but they are themselves not so expensive with respect to what they can do. Which is then an issue of: does one personally feel confident that the elements in their army will never need it.

I'm in the boat of preparing for the worst, even if I manage to never use it, because it's not just a game with you, but with your opponent and there are times when you just can't dictate the terms of engagment.

Repost since some people are blocking you ^_^

Sanctjud wrote:But it's not just about anti-vehicle.
It's there as a weapon of oppurtunity (otherwise defensively).

3 Attacks is better than the 1 attack with kraks.
Else, these are three attacks going at an MC or IC.
If it's vs. MEQ's then it essntially means one kill, which is important.

Certainly (as discussed by others before) you don't spam them everywhere, but they are themselves not so expensive with respect to what they can do. Which is then an issue of: does one personally feel confident that the elements in their army will never need it.

I'm in the boat of preparing for the worst, even if I manage to never use it, because it's not just a game with you, but with your opponent and there are times when you just can't dictate the terms of engagment.

Also i don't think the advantage of of power-fists in combat has been emphasize enough. You can pick out an IC with it, while they cannot directly target you. Though there are IC with Eternal warrior or T5+, many are only T3-4 which means you can cause Instant death. Against vehicles you can damage them, hell melta a vehicle and immobilise it you can charge and auto hit.

And finally there's the fear factor. Given the choice of charging two other wise identical units, one with one without, I'll pick the one without first and make sure to soften the other one up as much as possible.

Against a MC, a fist does usually 1 wound. The other guys might get lucky and add one or two also, but probably not. (and def. not if its a T8 one) If you are facing a cc MC, you are not going to kill it in time.

Against IC, sure, the fist is great. If you do manage to get the wound through the invul save, its probably going to paste the guy. (unless they have eternal warrior)

Against meqs, one kill is one kill. Or you could take a powersword with bolt pistol and get 1 kill, for cheaper, and the chance to kill more than the PF has attacks if you get lucky.

So lets look at what PF does:

Doesn't kill walkers very well
Doesn't kill MC very well
Doesn't kill enough Meqs or Geqs
Doesn't perform much higher against vehicles than krak from the squad (and he can take a melta bomb to contribute to the bomb attack)
Pastes IC's that don't have eternal warrior
Costs 25 points, vs options that work nearly as well and are free or much cheaper.

So its really good against ICs that don't have eternal warrior. So, exactly what are the odds that an IC is going to be assaulting a tac squad when I'm sure there are other places he could attack? If your army has multiple fists, pretty good. If you just take 1-2, I'm better not every high.

So not only is the PF a really below par choice for its points against what it is supposed to kill, the one thing it does do a good job against, your opponent probably only has 1-2.

@notabot187:
Why are you assuming the MC was not softened up before.
Seriously, if the fist will do one wound, plus possible more, you can leave the MC alive after taking most wounds off it and not shoot it, allocate resources elsewhere, get a cool extra 6" movment and kill the MC in combat and then get anoterh D6" of movement.

That sounds really good, and only depends on average rolling.

As for attacking MEQs, yup 1 and 1 each. What I think you are not addressing is that the fist does not discriminate...it does ALL of that, without needing to tailor, so you pay for the flexibility.
You pay to be able to say "This squad can deal with ANYTHING in the 40K universe."

Really.... you had to go into a list:
-Walker: so you rather hit it with krak grenades on 6's?
4's to hit and 4's to glance is pretty good in combat. Certainly you want to shoot it dead, but hey, gak happens....else, there's the fleeting kinds or the kinds that charge out of pods (the forge world kinds).
-MC killing: again, read above, we are assuming compitent players.
-that's not it's main purpose, but it's not bad either.

As for IC NOT attacking that squad...again, it's a deterrent...you've just changed the enemy game plan. You have just pushed the IC to attack something else and add to their durability indirectly.

I really don't know what else to say. The fist is a personal choice, there's nothing bad about it. People will weight different aspects of it differently, certainly, but I've seen fists do more good than doing poorly (remember it might not be the fist, it could very well be the dice, generalship, placement, etc. that makes it look bad).

notabot187 wrote:Against a MC, a fist does usually 1 wound. The other guys might get lucky and add one or two also, but probably not. (and def. not if its a T8 one) If you are facing a cc MC, you are not going to kill it in time.

one would hope to remove some wounds on the way in but carry on.

Against IC, sure, the fist is great. If you do manage to get the wound through the invul save, its probably going to paste the guy. (unless they have eternal warrior)

Against meqs, one kill is one kill. Or you could take a powersword with bolt pistol and get 1 kill, for cheaper, and the chance to kill more than the PF has attacks if you get lucky.

So lets look at what PF does:

Doesn't kill walkers very well

Walkers you're fighting WS vs WS normally that's 4+, you can hurt them which is better then not at all

Doesn't kill MC very well

Nothing kills MC very well. Yes you can lascannon, autocannon or even melta most of them but thats still only causing it one wound each, when it finally does reach you it would be nice to finish it off.

Doesn't kill enough Meqs or Geqs

? how many does it need to? wounding on a 2+ no armour save ... sure you may get 1 more power weapon attack but it they break even.

Doesn't perform much higher against vehicles than krak from the squad (and he can take a melta bomb to contribute to the bomb attack)

? Kraks are Str6 and vs walkers only ever hit on a 6. If you think they work as well I'm sorry but thats not true.

Pastes IC's that don't have eternal warrior
Costs 25 points, vs options that work nearly as well and are free or much cheaper.

Sure lots of things are cheaper but for the same reason you take a missile launcher then a lascannon, it some times better to do a little of everything then one thing really well. That way you're always able to do something.

So its really good against ICs that don't have eternal warrior. So, exactly what are the odds that an IC is going to be assaulting a tac squad when I'm sure there are other places he could attack? If your army has multiple fists, pretty good. If you just take 1-2, I'm better not every high.

? Point is you'll be in a Rhino, drop-pod, ect and heading to meet them.

So not only is the PF a really below par choice for its points against what it is supposed to kill, the one thing it does do a good job against, your opponent probably only has 1-2.

But on the other hand if you're facing Nids or Orks you'll have lots of targets.

Sanctjud and Tri have spelled it all out perfectly. It's fine to say that one doesn't prefer to use powerfists, quite another to say that they aren't effective for the points.

What is better, a 25 percent chance of wounding a Wraithlord or 0 chance?

Killing one MEQ in cc or 2 or 3?

One grenade attack or 3 S8 attacks?

Sometimes I use my squads with fists to charge MCs! Ever have a Trygon pop up in your DZ and have a bunch of other stuff you'd rather shoot at? A couple of combat squads with powerfists and melta guns solves the problem pretty nicely.

Ever have an opponent so close to tabled that your Tactical Squads are in their deployment zone getting ready to finish off the Tervigons because the damned Hive Guard killed your Dreadnoughts and your Terminators are out of position because the Zoanthropes nuke your Land Raider? It's a snap with a fist.

I couldn't tell you how many Vulkans, Chaplain and Librarians have been insta-gibbed with these things... my own and others. I could go on and on, but you get the point.

Tri
Its tempting to get into the meltaguns vs lascannons angle of this discussion...since you said you'd give me my best gun for shooting. I think if you run the numbers you will find that twin linked meltaguns have a pretty good shot at killing the kans. something like a 40% chance each. Which for one gun is not bad at all.

I think the better angle is this: do you really expect the power fist to save your squad of tacticals against 3 grot kans? If they charge you they'll elminate half the squad before you swing once. If you charge them you're a slow. It's pretty much lose/lose. So if you're going to lose a squad either way, why lose a 25 point piece of wargear too? That's my point. power fists won't really save you in a bad assault, so why spend the 25 points?

AF



Automatically Appended Next Post:
listen to notabot he's giving you the strait dope.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Tri
Its tempting to get into the meltaguns vs lascannons angle of this discussion...since you said you'd give me my best gun for shooting. I think if you run the numbers you will find that 4 twin linked meltaguns are more than capable of dealing with the kan mob, forcefield or no.

I think the better angle is this: do you really expect the power fist to save your squad of tacticals against 3 grot kans? If they charge you they'll elminate half the squad before you swing once. If you charge them you're a slow. It's pretty much lose/lose. So if you're going to lose a squad either way, why lose a 25 point piece of wargear too? That's my point. power fists won't really save you in a bad assault, so why spend the 25 points?

AF

^_^ four melta guns ...ignoring that tactical squads can't have 4 meltas, isn't getting within charge range of the kan's not exactly what you were telling me was stupid? The odds per TL- Melta gun is only 37% vs a Kan being protected by a custom force field. So even if you had 4 you're only likely to kill one.

combi-melta and pistol
cheap and gives 2nd melta to the squad

Monster

I'm going to address each of your points 1 by 1.... because I know how you much it hurts your feelings to be ignored...

wraithlords: I'm willing to accept that if I'm in close combat with a wraith lord I'm going to lose the squad. The plus side is the wraith lord will take all day to kill them, bc it only has 2 attacks Anyway what's better? to pay 25 points for a 1 in 4 chance of hurting the wraith lord, or to pay 0 points and just stay out of the dern thing's way? It's like 20 feet tall, has no invulnerable, and its slower than the 2nd coming of christ. it's not hard to kill in shooting, honestly.

meqs: do the numbers please. a power fist does is unlikely to kill 3 marines in close combat, even on the charge. If you charge and the dice are with you you'll kill 2. If you get charged 1. (the odds are actually worse than that, which you'll see if you do the math, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.) Anyway why are your tacticals fighting other tacticals?

about grenades: again you're bringing up a marginal situation. Most vehicles can move 12 and make you roll on 6s, so there's not much difference betwee a power fist and a krak grenade here. against a walker (lets say a dread) your odds are still very marginal. 4s to hit 4s to glance even if you pen only a 1 in 3 chance of killing it. Sorry to sound condescending but, again, do the numbers. Odds are your marines will get locked in cc with this thing forever power fist or no. If you had a *chain* fist it would be another story...

No I've never had an opponent so close to tabled that my Tactical Squads are in their deployment zone getting ready to finish off the Tervigons because the damned Hive Guard killed my Dreadnoughts and my Terminators are out of position because the Zoanthropes nuked my Land Raider? But if it ever does happen to me I'll reevaluate power fists. promise

As for instant killing independent characters... Here I agree with you. A power fist in a terminator squad or in a command squad or some other hard core assault unit can round out their capabilities perfectly. You don't have to worry about never getting to swing because your buddies are killing the little guys at init 4 or better, but they might not have the strength to kill the really nasty stuff. hence the power fist. This is what makes lightning claws and thunder hammers an excellent combination, for example. So if we're talking about power fists in *tactical* or other *non close combat oriented* squads then I'm going to stand by what I said earlier - they're a waste don't take them. But if you mean in terms of the game as a whole then no I don't believe that.

Look you've got to stop thinking about the 10,000 what-ifs of 40k and focus on the most likely scenarios. the only one of those that you addressed were MEQ vs MEQ and MEQ vs IC. In the 1st case it's nice but not worth 25 points. In the 2nd it will make a difference most of the time so I'll give you that. MEQ vs Monsters, Hardcore assault units, vehicles, or GEQ it doesnt make any kind of difference. If I'm buying wargear at 25 points a piece it needs to be useful *most* of the time not *some* of the time. I'd rather just use tactical decisions to keep out of the few situations where I really need it then to hobble the rest of my army by buying 1 for every squad at 100+ points.

AF



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tri.
yes. tacticals can't have 4 meltaguns.
which is why they blow.
bikes...bikes...bikes....

anyway about your 37% idea... Math doesn't work like that. You can't say 37x4 = 148 so I'll probably kill 1. Sorry that's just not the way it works. Each throw of the dice is a seperate entity it has to be considered seperately. This is not my personal opinion here. It's the universal law of mathematics.

Anyway I appended the post so we're not talking about 4 meltaguns. It introduces too many foreign elements to the discussion so just grant me that a twin linked meltagun is better for killing a kan than a lascannon and I'm happy

AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:
but did you want to talk about that or the actual substance of my post?

Vs MEQ
Power Fist 2,3
3/6, 5/6 = 15/36 = 41.6%
Power weapon 3,4
3/6 3/6 = 9/36 = 25%
Both effectively cause 1 wound though power weapons may cause more. (corrected another error but changes very little in this case)

Vs GEQ
Power Fist 2,3
4/6, 5/6 = 20/36 = 55.5%
Power weapon 3,4
4/6 4/6 = 16/36 = 44.4%
Power weapon edges forward, but only noticeably on the charge, Then again vs GEQ you don't really need ether weapons.

Vehicles may move 12" but apart from those that are fast, you're more likely to see them moving 6", so they can shoot.

Edit Melta guns ... oops you're right did 5/6 on the damage chart, should have been 4/6 ...
BS, Pen, damage chart, cover save.
(4/6, 33/36, 4/6, 3/6) + (4/6 2/36 2/6 3/6) = 1632/7776 = 20.9%
odds on...
4 meltas killing 1 kan = 61.%
4 meltas killing 3 kans = is tricky but ... = 3.1%

uhhh... meqs are weapon skill 3?


anyway I guess you're dropping that whole kan wall argument.

the meltaguns are twin linked. not 4/6 to hit, 2/3 hit and 2/3 of the remaining 1/3 hit or 88%

The penetration fraction should be 2/3. if I get a 3 its bumped up to a 4 because of ap 1. kan walls come in squadrons and count immobilized results as destroyed.

So the odds of 1 twin linked meltagun killing 1 kan in a squadron in cover are: 22/25 hit x 11/12 penetrate x 1/2 cover x 2/3 destroyed results = 484/1800 = 26/100 if I penetrate and 242/1800 = 13/100 if I glance. Roughly 35% on the whole (not sure about combining the two fractions so I'll just cut the 2nd in half and call it fair. willing to bet no one here has the mathematical training to correct it but if we have any mathematicians I'd be anxious to hear what the real rule is.)
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:As for instant killing independent characters... Here I agree with you. A power fist in a terminator squad or in a command squad or some other hard core assault unit can round out their capabilities perfectly. You don't have to worry about never getting to swing because your buddies are killing the little guys at init 4 or better, but they might not have the strength to kill the really nasty stuff.

I have to disagree about command squads being a "hard core assault unit". Simply having veteren stats does not make a unit a hard core assault unit. The only thing that qualifies in the SM codex is the assault terminators.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:anyway about your 37% idea... Math doesn't work like that. You can't say 37x4 = 148 so I'll probably kill 1. Sorry that's just not the way it works. Each throw of the dice is a seperate entity it has to be considered seperately. This is not my personal opinion here. It's the universal law of mathematics.

Actually that is not true. He couldn't say that it will kill 1, but he could certainly find the average number of kills (.37x 4=1.48) and say he'll probably kill 1. The fact you are referring to is that a probability distribution has a confidence value, meaning that for Range (of kills) X to Y, there is Z probability that any given roll will fall in that range. Z probability is never 100%, since it is possible to roll nothing but 1s.

@AF:

Most vehicles can move 12 and make you roll on 6s, so there's not much difference betwee a power fist and a krak grenade here.

3 Attack vs. 1 Attack, no difference?

Look you've got to stop thinking about the 10,000 what-ifs of 40k and focus on the most likely scenarios.

It's a dice game, the 'what-ifs' creep out all the time.
In addition, as transparent as the game is, there are important variables that are unknown to you. (ex. what the opponent will do with a fast army).

If I'm buying wargear at 25 points a piece it needs to be useful *most* of the time not *some* of the time.

But your 'most of the time' is not everbody's 'most of the time'. As said, there are things that do not have to 'make points back' to be effective.
As you even support, the fist can be a deterrent (to MC, IC, Walkers) and it's useful, just that it can't be measured by any qualitative values.

One thing that is missing from all the comparative values given, is a value for average kills from a Sgt. with no special weapons. If you add that in, and compare both power fist and power weapon averages, then you will get a better picture of what your 15 and 25 points are getting you.

Comparing them to each other is somewhat of a folly, since they are different point values and do not have a starting point to show what each gets you on its own.

Ok final one...
TL Melta guns.

BS, Pen, damage chart, cover save.
(32/36, 33/36, 4/6, 3/6) + (32/36 2/36 2/6 3/6) = 13056/46656 = 28.%
odds on...
4 meltas killing 1 kan = 73.1%
4 meltas killing 3 kans = is tricky but ... = 6.9%

The only consistancy is inconsistancy.

Dracos wrote:One thing that is missing from all the comparative values given, is a value for average kills from a Sgt. with no special weapons. If you add that in, and compare both power fist and power weapon averages, then you will get a better picture of what your 15 and 25 points are getting you.

Comparing them to each other is somewhat of a folly, since they are different point values and do not have a starting point to show what each gets you on its own.

.... really? fine, fine ....

Bolter and bolt pistol or bolt pistol and CCW
2,3 or 3,4
MEQ
3/6 3/6 2/6 = 18/216 = 8.3% ... so unlikely to kill.
GEQ
4/6 4/6 4/6 = 64/216 = 29.6%

Dracos

If I swing at something 4 times and each shot has a 25% chance to kill you can't conclude from that that I'll definitely kill 1. I don't really know how to work it out past that point I just know that you have 4 distinct swings at (in this case) 3 distinct objects (Kans in a squad). It's not at all unlikely that the 4 meltaguns will kill 2 or even 3 of the kans, which is what the 1/4 + 1/4 + 1/4 + 1/4 = 4/4 or 1 argument overlooks, besides, as you said, the probability of killing even 1 never reaches 100%

AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:
really my only point was that the meltaguns are a better way to deal with the mob of kans than a power fist. however likely or unlikely it is that 4 tl meltaguns will nuke the whole mob ithey're wwwaaayyyy more likely to get the job done than a sergeant swinging with a power fist, who has 0 chance at killing all 3 in 1 combat. Unless he charges I guess. Which would be gutsy indeed.

I was referring to the squad and the powerfist killing 2 or 3 MEQs, not the fist alone.

It doesn't hurt my feelings when you ignore my excellent points, it just annoys me to have to repeat them. And I wasn't annoyed that you were ignoring my posts specifically, but also Tri and Sanctjud who seem to have a pretty solid grasp of tactics versus a wide variety of opponents.

Someone math hammer a melta gun killing a kff obscured man vs a powerfist in a squad of 10 marines in CC, would you? Just out of curiosity.

And I've tried to bow out of the snarkiness gracefully, AF. Let's not be pissy anymore.

Now this is where you've got me wrong I'm perfectly within my rights to say that # will probably do #. If i said they will cause a wound then I'd be wrong.

If you must know you work out the odds of doing it once, this case X, and find out the odds of it not happening raise that to the power of the number of shots. That will find you the odds of failing to kill one model with # number of shots.
1-(1-X)^#
This of cause fails when you want to find out the more complicated things like the chance of 4 meltas killing 3 Kans. Then what you need to do is add the odds of all the out comes where you manage to meet the criteria.
ABCD
1111 = X*X*X*X
1110 = X*X*X*(1-X)
1101 = X*X*X*(1-X)
1011 = X*X*X*(1-X)
0111 = X*X*X*(1-X)
= X*X*X*X + X*X*X*(1-X) + X*X*X*(1-X) + X*X*X*(1-X)


Melta guns ..
(4/6, 33/36, 4/6, 3/6) + (4/6 2/36 2/6 3/6) = 1632/7776 = 20.9%
TL Melta guns.
(32/36, 33/36, 4/6, 3/6) + (32/36 2/36 2/6 3/6) = 13056/46656 = 28.%
Power fist Vs Killa Kan (AV11 WS3)
(4/6 2/6 3/6)+(4/6 1/6 1/6) = 28/216 = 12.96%
& with 2 attacks = 24.2%
& with 3 attacks = 34%

Tri
yes I'm very likely to kill at least 1 kan but you can't say, based on those numbers, that I'll *only* kill 1. Just guessing 2 is far more likely.

You will Probably kill one.
You may also: kill nothing, kill one, kill two, kill three, kill four times (wasting the 4 since there's no one left).
You may also have unlikely things like, one of the killer kanz explodes. Since your melta guns with in 6" so you may also loose 0-All space marines in range of the blast.
, these things have a very low probability but they may happen. If you like i can tell you the odds of it happening but its unlikely to come up.

Samus_aran115 wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:on that note I wish this game had a built in side board system, like in magic. It's dumb to tell me I have to stick with flamers if that's what I bought. Like we're not smart enough to pack a few plasma guns in that rhino just in case. idk even modern armies can do that. seems like the game should have a little better flexibility in that regard.
AF

That's a actually a really good point. Go tell GW

And have them spit in your face...

Monster
you said: "I've tried to bow out of the snarkiness gracefully, AF. Let's not be pissy anymore."
Fair enough

Sorry if I gave the impression I'm ignoring points. I'm talking to Tri at length.... as for sanct... yes I am ignoring him.... because I've talked to him so much in the past that I know what he's going to say before he says it: "it's all shades of grey... their roles are different... you cant compare... actually its not all that bad... it's all personal preferences..." blah blah blah. I don't have anything to say to this approach to the game, so I don't say it. But anyway if he wants to whine about being on my ignore list that's fine.... It's touching to know he cares

about the power fists... well if you want to kill another meq in cc why not take the power weapon? it's cheaper and gives about the same results per swing, but, importantly, it swings at init 4. The big thing witht he power fist is init 1. the higher init value you kill someone at the less opportunity they have to attack you, so the power weapon is the more aggressive play. It's not as big a deal on loyalist marines but on a berserker or on a noise marine it's huge. everyone you kill at init 5 is potentially one of your guys who lives. or just a strait up fight between a guy with a power weapon and a guy with a power fist. again the power weapon wins. The power fist doesn't synergize well with combat squads either, which is supposed to be one of the great things about tactical squads.

the meltaguns came up because tri was making a point about its usefulness about kans. without doing the math I'd guess they have about an equal shot at killing them; the power fist doesn't get obscured by the kustom force field but it's not twin linked or ap 1 either so they'll probably balance out.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:the meltaguns came up because tri was making a point about its usefulness about kans. without doing the math I'd guess they have about an equal shot at killing them; the power fist doesn't get obscured by the kustom force field but it's not twin linked or ap 1 either so they'll probably balance out.

Note i Have ^ On the charge the fist wins, and to quote you it has the possibility of kill all three.
TL Melta guns = 28.%
Power fist Vs Killa Kan (AV11 WS3) = 12.96%
& with 2 attacks = 24.2%
& with 3 attacks = 34%
But then why not take both and up the odds even more?

ummm...yes 1 power fist is more likely to kill a kan than 1 meltagun. who shoots 1 meltagun though? If you make it a strait points comparison then 28/100 x250/100 = 70/100 or 70%
meltas win again

Yes it's possible that the power fist will nuke all 3 killa kans in 1 combat if you charge but this is getting way out into the hypothetical..... I mean if you're on the table are you really going to risk the whole squad of marines on a 1/3 chance of killing 1 kan with a power fist?
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:ummm...yes 1 power fist is more likely to kill a kan than 1 meltagun. who shoots 1 meltagun though? If you make it a strait points comparison then 28/100 x250/100 = 70/100 or 70%
meltas win again

Yes it's possible that the power fist will nuke all 3 killa kans in 1 combat if you charge but this is getting way out into the hypothetical..... I mean if you're on the table are you really going to risk the whole squad of marines on a 1/3 chance of killing 1 kan with a power fist?
AF

well If you've just meltagun it ... you might as well get the charge, its that or its shooting you and then charging. Melta guns have 12" range ... Kans can move 6" and assault another 6".

Well... on average the fist does better vs. MEQ than the power weapon.
The Fist cost more though, but that's because it does more.

I care because I want others to have a balanced view of things, not just the one way street.

I mean, just look at a point I make that he is dismissing: The role.
What could he mean?
That the role of the Sarg. makes no difference to the equipment used?
That the role of the power weapon and the power fist are in fact one and the same?

Edit: took out unneeded last liner.

the way I'd deal with the kan wall is to hit it with a mass of meltaguns from about 12" away. I mean like 8 or more. You don't really need the 2d6 vs armor 10 and this will let you stay out of their charge range, and that of the guys behind them, since in a kan wall you're dealing with more than 1 kan squadron.

I agree with you that just hitting it with 4 meltaguns won't be enough. hitting it with 4 + a power fist might do it if you have enough casualties in the squad to survive to init 1, but even if you pull it off it's a suicide mission, since there are presumably more kans behind those. It will come out to a 1:1 trade at best, which is not really the best...

and this is just 1 marginal situation. what's the value in a marine vs marine fight? against an ork horde army? against guard? etc. I think on the balance power fists are out... at least on squad sergeants.
AF

Kans have 2 attacks, and ws 3. If you attack a squadron of 3 with more than 3 marines your fist will get to swing, most likely.

Tri your not organizing the math in a coherent way, at least not to me.

@ Abaddon: If you read what I quoted of you, was that you stated that someone could not say what was probable to happen. My point was that you can say what is probable, but not what is going to happen.

Using as base Sgt with Bolt pistol+CCW: if you plan on having your Tacticals get into combat, it makes sense to outfit with bolt pistol + CCW instead of just a bolter as basis for analysis (IMO, if you want to know what its like for just a bolter, the math isn't complicated)

Against GEQ:
Tacticals assaulting: 4*4/6*4/6*4/6~1.19 kills average
Tacticals assaulted: 3*4/6*4/6*4/6~0.89 kills average

MEQ:
Tacticals assaulting: 4*3/6*3/6*2/6~0.33 kills average
Tacticals assaulted: 3*3/6*3/6*2/6~0.25 kills average


Sgt with bolt pistol + power weapon

Against GEQ:
Tacticals assaulting: 4*4/6*4/6~1.78 kills average
Tacticals assaulted: 3*4/6*4/6*~1.33 kills average

MEQ:
Tacticals assaulting: 4*3/6*3/6~1 kills average
Tacticals assaulted: 3*3/6*3/6~0.75 kills average

Sgt with power fist

Against GEQ:
Tacticals assaulting: 3*4/6*5/6~1.67 kills average
Tacticals assaulted: 2*4/6*5/6~1.11 kills average

MEQ:
Tacticals assaulting: 3*3/6*5/6~1.25 kills average
Tacticals assaulted: 2*3/6*5/6~0.83 kills average

A sgt is worth approximately 26 points (5 man squad is 90 = 4(16) + 26, 10 man squad is 170= 9(16) + 26)

Therefore, in order for an upgrade to be worth its points, it would have to increase the model's total output overall by a % equal to its % cost. Power weapon is 60% of the cost of the Sgt model and therefore must increase by 60%. Powerfist is 96% and therefore must increase by 96%.

Sgt with bolt pistol + power weapon (same number of attacks make % increase for assaulting and assaulted the same)
Against GEQ :
Assaulting:50%
Assaulted:50%
MEQ:
Assaulting:200%
Assaulted:200%

Sgt with power fist
Against GEQ:
Assaulting:40%
Assaulted:25%
MEQ
Assaulting:278%
Assaulted:232%

So while its clear that each turn the unit is in combat with MEQ, the weapons will increase the output by enough to justify themselves, the real question is how frequently you are going to be able to use the increase.

What does the math actually tell us then: If you find your tacticals in combat frequently with MEQ, then the upgrades are not only worth it, but suggested.

It all comes down to how you use your tactical squads. If you don't spend many turn in assault with MEQ, then the upgrades are not going to be worth the expense. Personally, I fall into this category.

Monster
ok good point. sorry dont know much about kans besides av 10 and dccw. and some surprisingly effective ranged fire power....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dracos
yeah I couldnt follow his math either


Automatically Appended Next Post:
yeah I'm not really interested in having my MEQs fight theirs either. So I'd agree with you it's a bad buy. 3+ power weapons are meaningful, just 1, no. I only suggested the power weapon bc it's a cheaper alternative for people who just have to give their sergeant a weapon.

I just don't think it's meaningful to add up percentages. You can say each shot has a certain percentage chance of doing something but you can't conclude that because each shot has a 1 in 4 chance then 4 chances equals certainty or near certainty. Saying for instance that 4 swings at 25% chance each will kill on average 1 guy ignores the possibility that 3 will die, which is also possible. Mathematically that has to be accounted for in some way. I admit I don't know what exactly you're supposed to do past figuring out the likelyhood of each swing. If you're confident that you do then I think it's fair to ask: why? what are your credentials? If you have none, can you reference someone who does?

AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:the way I'd deal with the kan wall is to hit it with a mass of meltaguns from about 12" away. I mean like 8 or more. You don't really need the 2d6 vs armor 10 and this will let you stay out of their charge range, and that of the guys behind them, since in a kan wall you're dealing with more than 1 kan squadron.

I agree with you that just hitting it with 4 meltaguns won't be enough. hitting it with 4 + a power fist might do it if you have enough casualties in the squad to survive to init 1, but even if you pull it off it's a suicide mission, since there are presumably more kans behind those. It will come out to a 1:1 trade at best, which is not really the best...

and this is just 1 marginal situation. what's the value in a marine vs marine fight? against an ork horde army? against guard? etc. I think on the balance power fists are out... at least on squad sergeants.
AF

Kans are AV11,11,10 though you are unlikely to need 2D6 to pen them you'll need to roll higher then you need.
Melta's not at half range are ... wait you want this a TL won't you sigh...
TL-Melta over half range VS AV11.
32/36 3/6 4/6 1/2 + 32/36 1/6 2/6 1/2 = 224/1296 = 17.2% ... Now to get upset but quick bodge works out about 50 are need.

As to what a fist will bring against other armies ...
IG you want to charge them. If you can charge and destroy a tank so much the better.
Nids Let me think which codex has the most nasty deep-striking MCs?
Daemons, Sure they have eternal warrior and invulnerable save but you'll still be wounding them on a 2+.
Eldar, Waveserpents have enegy fields, But fists still hit the rear armour. There are also things like Avatars and Wraithlords to watch out for. Much like guard you want to get into close combat with them.
Space marines don't like power fists to the face. They also sport a range of vehicles that the fist works on.

End of the day taking a fist on a unit in a rhino gives you one more option. Not taking it is up to you personally but you're missing out.

edit oh and Draco, i just list the percentage odds of it happening, normally once unless mention.

yes it should always be twin linked. I wouldnt run marines without vulkan. ever.

I'm not upset tri... I just dont agree with your math.

Your odds on each meltagun killing its target are right. However you can't add the percentages together (if you could then forcing a marine to take 3 power armor saves would kill him 100% of the time since 1/3 x3 = 1.) If you're going to invoke the absolute, final authority of math you have to follow its rules precisely. You're not doing that so I don't accept your conclusion.

Even if you could though I'm curious where your 50 meltaguns idea comes from. The number I got was 17.6 since 17x17.6 = 300 or 3 kans.

And again........this is 1 marginal situation. to bring the conversation even remotely back to topic even if power fists completely wrecked kan walls it wouldn't make the case that they're an awesome buy for the sergeant. You'd have to show that they're useful in *most* close combats, not just *a few*
AF

Theoryhammer =/= true gameplay. It's mere statistics, AF. By adding the percentages together, you get the averages. On average, out of 3 marines, 1 should fail an armour save. 2 may fail, none may, but on average, 1/3 should die.

Simple.
Also, if you only run with Vulkan, then why not play with only terminators with 2 5 man scout squads, since you hate marines so much. You sound like a little kid when you say 'I don't accept your conclusion.' You may not accept it, but it's the truth. You can say, 'nah nah nah I don't accept the earth is a sphere (relatively)', but at the end of the day, it's pretty much a sphere. Power fists are useful around the board, since they can insta-kill nobs, murder ork boyz, devastate guardsmen, eradicate eldar units (aka wound wraithlord on 4+), punch out tanks, beat up walkers, slay Armoured Sentinels (as YOU said yourself), destroy most (if not all) nids, slay tau even better, and can do SO many things, for only 25 points. That's a bloody bargain!

Quick dirty way of finding how many shots you need to destroy X number of targets, on average; is to divide the number of targets by the fraction to do it once. In this case we have 9 dreads and being destroyed at 0.172 that works out at 52.07: now you can fire less then that but chance of destroying all 9 Kanz will diminish.

but its simple to see that 10 meltas won't do it.

Oh and you do realize that all percentage figures are fractions multiply by 100: before you can use it else where it need to divide back down as well.

JSK
I'm sorry if you're finding this conversation frustrating... you know what's good for getting rid of frustration? Exercise. Really clears the mind. You'll still be wrong afterwards of course but you'll feel better

Anyway I've pretty much said what I had to say. If you have something new to bring up I'd be interested to hear it though.
AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yes tri I realize that a percentage is a fraction of 100. Per cent. Per 100. If you check my math I think you'll find I followed that ruIe.

I see where you're getting 50 from.... Ummm.. I guess at this point I've pretty much said what I had to say on the subject. Cheers.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:JSK
I'm sorry if you're finding this conversation frustrating... you know what's good for getting rid of frustration? Exercise. Really clears the mind. You'll still be wrong afterwards of course but you'll feel better

Anyway I've pretty much said what I had to say. If you have something new to bring up I'd be interested to hear it though.
AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yes tri I realize that a percentage is a fraction of 100. Per cent. Per 100.

I see where you're getting 50 from.... Ummm.. I guess at this point I've pretty much said what I had to say. the math on your power fists killing the kans is comparable, but the meltaguns are cheaper. Anyway Cheers.
AF

Frustrating? Pfft. I never get frustrated. Also, nice job completely avoiding the rest of what I said.

I've answered the rest of what you said in great... Tedious... Exhaustive.... Detail.... I can see how from your perspective it would be better if I typed it all again but life is short so just scroll up ok?

Unless monster rain has something else to add I'm pretty much done with this topic.
AF

It might be time to agree to disagree.

Or ignore each other.

Or "IGNORE" each other.

But certainly do NOT insult each other.

That would be... against the rules.

In all-comers lists I by default give all my sergeants powerfists. If there are leftover points after fleshing out my entire army I will then consider combi-weapons that match the assault weapon already put into the squad.

I'm not really sure what all this talk about vulcan marines came in.

Here is my final thoughts on this topic:

For the vanilla codex with no special characters taking away combat tactics: No upgrades except maybe a power weapon, or a melta bomb. Bolt pistol and chainsword is good enough
For vulcan marines from Codex:SM Give him a combi melta.
For Blood angels: tacs sarges same as vanilla, but assault sarges have CC options that should be taken.
For space wolves: lol, they get sarges?
Black templars: lol same as space wolves.
Dark angels: meh, I almost forget they exist, they are the rarest SM where I play, and vanilla does nearly the same thing and has more options.

I don't include the other special characters for Codex:SM since they aren't nearly as common as vulcan or plain vanilla. My personal SM is just vanilla, I don't ever take special characters, use librarians mostly (cheap and utilitarian) and only use tacticals to unlock razors and to score with. I don't really like paying too many points for what I plan on using the squad for, so I invest the saved points into the excellent support options that space marines have in every slot that isn't troops.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
I've answered the rest of what you said in great... Tedious... Exhaustive.... Detail.... I can see how from your perspective it would be better if I typed it all again but life is short so just scroll up ok?

Unless monster rain has something else to add I'm pretty much done with this topic.
AF

We have officially agreed to disagree, I think.

Maybe someday we will meet at a GT or something and I can teach you the error of your ways. .

agree to disagree
lol yeah maybe you'll have the chance to...ummm... teach me... one day.

notabot187 wrote:I'm not really sure what all this talk about vulcan marines came in.

AbaddonFidelis always runs him so wanted to test TL-meltas Vs powerfists.

One point I'm going to try and get across is that no army can rely purely on shooting to win ... bar IG since they can both shoot hundreds of guns and afford to loose hundreds. Space marines have one of the best all round statline and even without special close combat weapons can win against most enemies. If nothing else by charging your marines you stop the enemy getting a bonus attack and shooting you. Now at the end of your enemies assault phase is a great time to fall back as you may get away and rally or simply shoot them.

By adding a power weapon you improve your attacks against infantry; by adding a power fist does every thing a power weapon does and also increase what you can attack. 25pts lets you hurt things that you'd otherwise have to rely on shooting. I think its worth it since you can never predict what you enemy will have.

I believe the term is, 'Expect the Unexpected.'
If you don't want to bring powerfists, some guy will have 6 dreadnoughts holding you marines in limbo for about 4 turns. If they are ironclads, without a pf, you can't even glance it!
You would lose, and be unhappy as a result. If you remembered to bring the occaisional trusty pf, you would win since they would be overwhelmed by a pf blowing up their dreads, and you would take victory with your infinately flexible Tacticals!

Here is my analysis of special CC weapons against dreads:

Note*Relevent damage table results (RDTR) include stunned-exploded. Note that the average number of destroyed or exploded results is much worse (and significantly worse against the ironclad)

RDTR is calculated:
(number of attacks) (chance to hit) (chance to glance) (chance to obtain stunned-immobilized) + (number of attacks) (chance to hit) (chance to pen) (chance to obtain stunned-exploded)

Without assaulting:
(2) (3/6) (1/6) (3/6) + (2) (3/6) (2/6) (5/6) =18/216 +60/216 = 78/216 = 0.36 RDTR per phase

You assaulting it:
(3) (3/6) (1/6) (3/6) + (3) (3/6) (2/6) (5/6) =27/216 +90/216 = 117/216 = 0.54 RDTR per phase

Against Ironclads its even worse (AV 13 + extra armor means stunned are no longer RDTR)

Without assaulting:
(2) (3/6) (1/6) (2/6) + (2) (3/6) (1/6) (4/6) = 12/216 + 24/216=36/216=0.17 RDTR per phase

You assaulting it:
(3) (3/6) (1/6) (2/6) + (3) (3/6) (1/6) (4/6) = 18/216 + 36/216=54/216=0.25 RDTR per phase

A powerfist can expect averages of 0.25 RDTR on assault and 0.17 RDTR otherwise against an Ironclad, and 0.54 RDTR when assaulting and 0.36 RDTR otherwise against AV 12 dreads.

The average RDTR is low enough that I would not want to stay in combat even with a power fist against a dread. Dreads do no move faster than your infantry, so you almost never have to be in assault with them unless you want to.

Dread vs tacticals

Normal with 2 attacks
assaulting: 3*3/6*5/6=1.25 per phase
otherwise: 2*3/6*5/6=0.83 per phase

Ironclad:
assaulting: 4*3/6*5/6=1.67 per phase
otherwise: 3*3/6*5/6=1.25 per phase

Just to show some additional data:

Single krak grenade RDTR vs dread:
(1) (1/6) (1/6) (3/6) = 3/216= 0.01 RDTR per phase

Melta bomb RDTR vs dread (glances can wreck)
(1) (1/6) (3/36) (4/6) + (1) (1/6) (30/36) (6/6) =432/46656 +6480/46656 = 0.15 RDTR per phase

Melta bomb RDTR vs Ironclad (glances can wreck)
(1) (1/6) (4/36) (3/6) + (1) (1/6) (26/36) (5/6) =216/46656 +4680/46656 = 0.10 RDTR per phase

Conclusion: No CC weapons offer a great chance to deal a single RDTR to a dreadnought in any given phase. The figures above include stunned results as those at least remove a single attack from the dreadnought. Note that Ironclads come with extra armor, and therefore stunned results are irrelevant to them. Even a power fist is not going to be much help against Ironclads, while providing at least a reasonable chance to eventually destroy a normal AV 12 dread.

Neither of these options are good enough, as the dread is going to be cheaper than a 10 man tactical squad. In the end your best bet is to use combat tactics to retreat from the combat, or have a unit with multiple power fist weapons come and dig the unit out.


edit: Tried to come up with formula for calculating what % of RDTR are actually wrecked or exploded, but formula was wrong. Perhaps I will revisit it later.

It's not great against Dreadnoughts, but its a hell of a lot better than leak grenades.

Monster Rain wrote:It's not great against Dreadnoughts, but its a hell of a lot better than leak grenades.

That's the point. There is no tactical squad solution against Dreads in CC . Therefore you strategy shouldn't be to provide slightly better odds at winning, but rather to avoid that fight altogether.

What I am trying to refute is the idea that you take power fists or melta bombs to fight dreads in CC.

Not just Dreads, no one is saying that it's great to take them because you'll pwnzilla Walkers like it ain't no thang.

It just gives you a shot and makes your tac squad just a bit more "ready for anything."

I sometimes take Fists, depending on the list I'm playing against.

And by no means are they useless. If your opponent runs his T4/T3 hero in, or if you can catch him in the assault (Farseers, caught a Shas'o once, Chaos Sorcerers, etc.) If you can land a hit/wound and if they fail their save unless they have EW or something similar they're dead. In addition, it DOES help you take out walkers like Kanz, Wraithlords, Sentinels, etc.

Rare occurences? Maybe. But it happens. Not every gamer in the local meta will immediately see it and laugh as they counter/avoid your silly PF sarge.

And why would you charge? REALLY? I assume then that throughout the tons of games you've played you've never, ever found it advantageous to Assault? Y'know, not when there's a mob of boyz and you want to deny them Furious Charge, or say, a squad of Battlesuits that are in range of your outflanking tactical. I assume none of these are the moves any competent player would ever make...

Being more ready for a losing battle is the same as being less ready for a losing battle; odds are that you're still going to lose. Better to avoid the losing battle in the first place (or have a rule that lets you exit it...).

Nurglitch wrote:Being more ready for a losing battle is the same as being less ready for a losing battle; odds are that you're still going to lose. Better to avoid the losing battle in the first place (or have a rule that lets you exit it...).

Again, we are assuming that our opponent is also competent and not playing directly into our hands.

Monster Rain wrote:Not just Dreads, no one is saying that it's great to take them because you'll pwnzilla Walkers like it ain't no thang.

It just gives you a shot and makes your tac squad just a bit more "ready for anything."

And I didn't say you were saying you'll pwnzilla walkers. I said it would improve your odds, but not to the point that you can expect to win.

Tactical squads can't be ready for anything. They can handle a wide variety of situations, perhaps moreso that almost any other unit.

Overestimating the capacity of your units is a good way to put them in situation they will lose in.

I'm just trying to offer show what results you should expect, and thus what you should plan for. Planning for rare occurrences and not most occurrences is a good way to lose most games, but win the rare games.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Monster Rain wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:Being more ready for a losing battle is the same as being less ready for a losing battle; odds are that you're still going to lose. Better to avoid the losing battle in the first place (or have a rule that lets you exit it...).

Again, we are assuming that our opponent is also competent and not playing directly into our hands.

And playing this way is underestimating your opponent.

I'd rather plan for the good player than for the poor player. I can probably beat the poor player anyways, no need to target him/her.

Monster Rain:

Sure, but as the Prisoner's Dilemma shows, the smart thing to do with a competent opponent is to go with the option that has the highest return and lowest cost no matter what your opponent does, rather the cost/benefit of any particular action.

Exactly. Take chess as an example as all the results of moves are exact and can be calculated to what WILL happen rather than what is probable.

At a given point, you come to a decision between 2 moves.

1)You can set up a trap that has one single way for your opponent to get out of it, but if they find it you lose. If they don't you win.
2)You can make a safe move that makes your position better, but does not necessarily force your opponent into any trap or offer them a winning move.

You should always choose the 2nd option, because you set yourself up to lose if they find the answer in the first option.

40k is a bit different because chance can swing any result. Even the worst mistake can be winning if the dice work out. Even the best move possible can fail if the dice don't work.

Therefore instead of having perfectly calculable results of what will happen, you have calculable results of what is probable to happen.

The better players make decisions based on what is likely to happen, and make the best move. Hoping to win the lottery is a poor way to becoming rich. Most people who are rich are rich because of high percentage wagers, not long shots.

Dracos wrote:Exactly. Take chess as an example as all the results of moves are exact and can be calculated to what WILL happen rather than what is probable.

In chess just as in 40k a unit is only as useful as its return. In chess I'll happly sacrifice a queen to take a pawn if it means I'll be able to win. Throwing a tactical squad at an uber tough close combat unit may seem a mistake but if i can remove that threat for a turn or two that allows me focus my fire power else where and come back to them. By give the unit a powerfist some unwinable fights just become difficult.

Dracos is right. besides the security blanket factor power fists are next to useless against dreads. which has been said more than once on this thread....
AF

Tri wrote: In chess just as in 40k a unit is only as useful as its return. In chess I'll happly sacrifice a queen to take a pawn if it means I'll be able to win. Throwing a tactical squad at an uber tough close combat unit may seem a mistake but if i can remove that threat for a turn or two that allows me focus my fire power else where and come back to them. By give the unit a powerfist some unwinable fights just become difficult.

Very true, a unit is only as useful as its return. What you are describing about chess though is the infinite value of the king. Of course you are going to sacrifice as many pieces, regardless of which, to take the king. The scenario I'm taking about is where you sacrifice your queen, and all moves but a single one move after your sacrifice leads to you winning. But if your opponent finds that single move then you just lose your queen and gain nothing. On the other hand, if you are losing anyways, it might be worth the try.

40k has similar scenarios. Sure, you could throw your tactical squad at the terminator unit. Some permutations of doing this allow you to win. Most don't. Doing so is normally setting yourself up to fail. Therefore, you should only do it when you are in a position that it is your best chance (as in all other options have even LESS chance of allow you to win). Pre-planning for taking the likely losing scenario is pre-planning to likely lose.

Dracos wrote:40k has similar scenarios. Sure, you could throw your tactical squad at the terminator unit. Some permutations of doing this allow you to win. Most don't. Doing so is normally setting yourself up to fail. Therefore, you should only do it when you are in a position that it is your best chance (as in all other options have even LESS chance of allow you to win). Pre-planning for taking the likely losing scenario is pre-planning to likely lose.

You don't pre-plan to loose. You assume that there will be time when when that unit will have to die for the good of the army and make sure it goes out fighting. When you actually play you now have the option of send ether a squad that will be quickly over whelmed or one that will last longer; then its down to you to make a judgment call how to use it.

As for the terminators, If a unit is going to be charged any way you might as well be the one doing the charging. At least that way they don't move forward (as much), can't shoot you first and don't get the extra attack

in either case your unit dies. if you bought them a powerfist it just hurts that much worse.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:in either case your unit dies. if you bought them a powerfist it just hurts that much worse.
AF

We play a game of IF's. Its nice to have as many options as possible, some times the lone guards man will win combat and cause them to fall back. In one scenario we have no fist in the other we do (I'm talking in general not the bloody guardsman); the odds are much more infavour of those with then without.
End of the day the power fist needs only to make the enemy act differently, If it kills a terminator, wounds a monstrous creature or even the holy grail of killing an Independent character its more then served it purpose.
You don't like getting into combat with you tactical squads, thats fine it how you play. Personally I feel that's a wast. You take meltas even though you may never see an enemy vehicle worth shooting with it (rhinos don't count if you're within melta range its done its job) and you take fists for when you need the extra power in combat.

I think a Sternguard Veteran is more useful against a lone Guardsman than a Powerfist on a Tactical Squad....

Nurglitch wrote:I think a Sternguard Veteran is more useful against a lone Guardsman than a Powerfist on a Tactical Squad....

True, but the tougher the opponent becomes the more the favorability skews to the fist.

And the less favorable being in combat with a tactical marine becomes

Nurglitch wrote:I think a Sternguard Veteran is more useful against a lone Guardsman than a Powerfist on a Tactical Squad....

Even as i read that back I knew some one would go there ...

Tri wrote:Its nice to have as many options as possible, some times the lone guards man will win combat and cause them to fall back. In one scenario we have no fist in the other we do (I'm talking in general not the bloody guardsman); the odds are much more infavour of those with then without.

Of course someone would go there. It undermines your general point and shows its major flaw: Spending 25pts to maginally increase the close combat potential of a shooting-based squad is not a worthwhile investment.

All add that the tougher the close combat opponent, the more advantage there is to investing in the Sternguard Veteran. Two shots wounding on 2+ at 12" or one shot at 24" beats the heck out of two/three attacks at I1 in close combat. Particularly against T7+ enemies...

Nurglitch wrote:Of course someone would go there. It undermines your general point and shows its major flaw: Spending 25pts to maginally increase the close combat potential of a shooting-based squad is not a worthwhile investment.

So you're say the roll of the tactical squad is purely shooting, never to assault and only to be assaulted if things go wrong? That completely ignores the fact they are good, not amazing, at everything including assaulting.

Nurglitch wrote:All add that the tougher the close combat opponent, the more advantage there is to investing in the Sternguard Veteran. Two shots wounding on 2+ at 12" or one shot at 24" beats the heck out of two/three attacks at I1 in close combat. Particularly against T7+ enemies...

As i said before build you're army and see whats left.

I regularly assault with mine.

I'm generally pleased with the result. Particularly with the powerfist. Denying those Boyz or Berserkers a charge can make a huge difference.

Sanctjud wrote:T3 stuff with 5+ or worse armor, a combination of both or just one of them.
Guants, Guards, Eldar, etc.

2/3 of the above are Meched up though........

ahem... We are not equivalent. We are superior to monkeighs in all things. Only Guardians are close to GEQ and they are fluffwise and tablewise rarely used... okay that arrogant snobbery taken care of (just staying in character here), back to the OP...

My take on sarge though: Hidden powerfist is always a good idea. I like to trick them out with a meltabomb too if I don't have points for a PF. It's cheap enough that it doesn't make much difference if it doesn't get used, but really useful if you happen to run into a Land Raider.

Other than that... bolter and chainsword, keep it simple keep it cheap. Really the only two upgrades I ever pay for in my Marine lists are a PF or a Mbomb.

The role of tactical squads is primarily shooting, with secondary assaulting when the target is equal or lesser strength in assault. Because of this, the power fist encourages you to put the marines in situations assault the wrong targets. Power weapons work best against equal toughness (other MEQs). However, in those battles simply shooting then assaulting will normally be enough anyways.

Tri

you said: we play a game of IF's. Its nice to have as many options as possible
The way you're talking about power fists it's like you get them for free. At 25 a piece if you take 4 of them you've spent 5% of your total points allocation in a 2000 point game. Since by your own admission all they do is insure against fairly unlikely situations, you're basically going into battle with 95% of your force vs 100% of theirs. This is not a good start..... Anyway it's aggression, risk taking, and boldness that win games. If you build your list with the idea of protecting against losing in mind, you're already setting yourself up to fail.


you said: End of the day the power fist needs only to make the enemy act differently
that's what I'm saying though. It's not going to effect the opponent's judgment if he understands that power fists are marginal. If he doesn't, then you're going to pwn him
anyway, fist or no, so again, why buy it?


you said: You take meltas even though you may never see an enemy vehicle worth shooting with it (rhinos don't count if you're within melta range its done its job)
I take melta weapons in order to destroy whole categories of enemy targets: they're very effective against vehicles, monstrous creatures, and heavy infantry. It has such broad application that I'm not playing to the what-if's when I take it. I'm playing to the probably's. I've played a game before when my meltaguns didn't have a worthwhile target but let me tell you not often. Compare that to your reasoning for taking power fists: "A walker might assault me in close combat." Honestly which is more likely?

AF

When have i said they only "insure against fairly unlikely situations"? They for fill most of the rolls that power weapons do; in addition they for fill other rolls as well.

In a 2000 points game having 4 would be absolutely fine ... If you end up with 100pts spare after building your list. Also spending 5% on upgrades doesn't sound bad at all. Though I can think of three or four other things that i might also take, so say 3 Power fists.

And generally lists that will use full tactical squdws will have 3... so that works out to thre fists
_________

As far as I can see, the issue to take a fist or not depends on what you will do with the tactical squad and what you will do when they encounter a situaion that is unfavorable to them.

I am advocating an all-comers situations as I do not tailor my list, in addition, I perfonally like to have every squad able to handle all kinds of situations, and the fist does that for me. I am not too concered with the % it can be done, I only care that it can be done.

5 pages people, with some drama.
Bottom line: if you have extra points, go for it.
If the tacticals are generally used as close range support, I'd suggest fists. If the tacticals will be combat squadding alot, don't go for it.

Combat Tactics has a risk/reward mechanism as well, as it will be rare to get the most out of it, so CT as an reason o not take a fist is a weak one IMO.


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In addition, depending on the gaming group, forge world is allowed.
This means the introduction of Lucius Drop Pods (The dread pod IIRC). Certainly we can assume meching up and hopeing the metal boxes don't break to be one answer.

Uhhhhhhh..... You mean you normally have 100 points to spare after making your list.......?
Ok never mind agree to disagree.
AF

If you put 3 fists in the army, that is 75 points where you could have a HF/MM speeder. I will always get more use out of the speeder.

Saying that you 'don't care how often a unit is successful in its mission (the %) as long as it is in the realm of possibility' is appalling. That statement both makes no sense, and does not support your side of the debate. Melta bombs can take out vehicles, and normal attacks can possibly kill anything else your tacticals would be in assault with. Right there according to your "as long as its possible, I don't care about the chance" statement supports the idea that you would only take melta bombs, not power fists.

I think people who take power fists take them because they think they are cool (which in concept, they are), not for any strategically logical reason. I have yet to see someone put forth a logical reason to take them, taking opportunity cost into account.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Uhhhhhhh..... You mean you normally have 100 points to spare after making your list.......?
Ok never mind agree to disagree.
AF

I normally aim spend 1/8 of my points on upgrades though these can run to anything from heavy weapons to un-need transport; heck might even add an attack bike for some multimelta kamikaze work. Purely depends on what I'm missing but At 2000pts an eighth's 250pts: it's highly likely I'll still have 75pts for 3 power fists and they have done me very well in the past.

Dracos, I think you should look back over the thread. Tri, Sanctjud and myself have given a lot better reasons to bring powerfists than "hurrr they are kewl."

If that's all you've gotten out of these posts I'm afraid this has been a dreadful waste of time. They wound most things on a 2+ and penetrate a LRBT on a 3+. Oh, and ignore armor saves. That's it in a nutshell.

And I did the math on it. The math essentially disproves that as a viable reason to take it.

As for penning a LRBT, you are assuming it is standing still? Most people I play move their LRBT if you are getting close enough to assault, meaning you need 6s to hit. GL getting anything through with those odds.

Mathhammer != tabletop reality. When you factor in things like deployment and tactics you see that things don't always go the way of the calculator.

I used to be a big fan of don't give the shooty tactical squads a fist. The idea is that shooty squads do their thing, so why give them something they don't need?

However, the problem with that ideology is that in 5th edition, there's just too many ways to get at a shooting squad in the back. It used to be range was a huge factor. However, with pods, outflanking, deepstriking, turbo-boost, scouts, infiiltrate...blah blah blah, it's just impossible to keep them out of hth in some situations.

My example: The Trygon. It deepstrikes like a pod and has 6 wounds. It can't assault the turn it shows up, so you get time to shoot at it. However, because of the deepstrike, you get 1 turn. If multiple trygons show up on the same turn, it's really a bear to deal with. THe tactical squad without a fist is just helpless to one...even if the trygon only has a wound or two left. That's where the powerfist is golden.

The thing is..short of shooting it dead in one turn, it's really really hard to stop.

Range just isn't what it used to be...so powerfists are more necessary than ever...even after the power fist nerf.

It's not the only thing: You can do something similar (if less effective) with multiple dreadnoughts in a droppod. The vanguard vets can assault the turn they deepstrike. You can put 10 regular grey knights (not terminators, that was faqed out) in a valkyrie/vendetta...turboboost scout move..on first turn disembark, move 6 assault 6 (12" deploy, 24" scout turboboost, disembark 3", move 6" assault 6") Ymgarl genestealers can pop out of terrain and assault the turn they show up.

It's well known and rather well accepted that even with a fist tacticals are bad in cc, the point is to do some damage as they die, or if the enemy is weakened or weak to a fist, to hopefully finish them off. In my blood angels, I very often detached my character from his assault squad to go after tacticals without a fist(and it's great because the tacticals have a hard time running away from the higher initiative and the character usually finishes them off on turn 2, the tacticals turn)...because I knew they couldn't hurt him at all...players always think I'm gonna keep the character with his hth squad...not really.

That's stopped with a simple powerfist.

@Dracos:
True, YOU will alwasy get more use out of it.
THere are those that have reasons for not using speeders:
example:
-FA slots full.
-Don't like speeders (rules or model)
-They don't have similar armor saturation.
-They don't like single Kill points in their lists.
-They don't run Vulkan.

I don't have 100 points remaining after my intial list, but that's because I include the fists to behing with.
When I expand from my 1500 to what ever above like 2000, I'll usually have 360 points of "I don't know what I want to get."

As for being appalled at my saying, it's worked for me....which as much strength as your second sentance.
In addition, you are incorrect about the melta bombs... fists can take on anything in the 40K universe, meltabombs do not.

I've had trouble with speeders. It just goes back to my thing of range not being that great anymore. As more and more players move to mech and monsters...there's just too many things on the board that can take out a landspeeder. I think a razorback or a dread is a better buy.

I don't really go in for speeders either. I've had Lootas wreck them just one too many times. I'll go for an Ironclad over a squadron of speeders every time. YMMV

Speeders bring a lot of firepower and mobility for very few points though. I have a hell of a hard time trying to bring them down because they are so hard to hit, and they pack a punch and they are extremely cheap compared to other race's skimmers. I don't usually use my Swooping Hawks because they are a points sink but whenever my Blood Angels opponent brings his speeder squadron to the table I regret leaving them off the list because it's just so damn hard to hit them otherwise. They always go down in the end to enough massed fire, but that's a lot of wasted shots that could have been better used worrying about the rest of his army instead of distracted trying to score that lucky hit, then hoping for a pen, then hoping for the roll on the damage table. They are a huge nuissance for my largely assault oriented army because they hit hard, where they want, and when played right, completely take advantage of the vehicle movement rules while still able to dish it out. You can't ignore them, just leaving them free reign of the field with all that firepower, but you can't swat them so easily like the gnats they are either. That's a pretty cheap win-win combination for a Marine player. 150 points in one FA slot to tie up an enemy's entire shooting phase for a couple of turns seems pretty worth it to me.


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Just a side thought... please update our codex so we can knock drop pods out of the sky on their way down. I hate drop pod spam. I does kind of make sense that an entire army of hovertanks and bird-winged stuff could get them before they just land, unload, and blow the crap out of us with perfection precision. Seems like it would be top priority for an Autarch to orchestrate, and I'm pretty sure a grav tank that can fly around really fast would have a field day picking those things off as they come down.

In a game against necrons, a sternguard sarg with power sword and bolt pistol killed the same necron lord 3 times. Against necrons, power swords are 100x more effective than fists, simpley because necrons have a lack of units with invs, and bad initative.

I rather stay away from tailoring to specific armies...esp. ones that are older than the SMurf codex and in need of an update.

They put a hurting on SoB as well, but then, needs an update Soo... yeah.

I think the subject at hand would be discussing sergeants in an All-Comers list.

Monster Rain wrote:They put a hurting on SoB as well, but then, needs an update Soo... yeah.

I think the subject at hand would be discussing sergeants in an All-Comers list.

I use my sarges higher leadership to make morale tests. IMHO that is their best use

Sure, GW give them the ability to take all sorts of (often expensive) options, but unless you some how don't have FoC slots or units that need the points more, upgrading sarges isn't something you should be doing. You want a combat character who puts the smack down on units? A sarge is not what you are looking for. Can he contribute? sure, but usually not enough to invest a bunch of points on him. I give mine a bolt pistol and chainsword, since its a free upgrade, all it costs me is one shot, and I get a CC attack. Doesn't sound like much, but against GEqs you need all you can get unless you like being tarpitted and swarmed to death. The sarge with 3 attacks (being charged, or ongoing) nearly has as many attacks as the rest of the squad combined. Should you upgrade to a powersword? I don't think so, since you aren't going to kill enough meqs to be worth your time (unless its the squad with the captain or libby, then PW density is going to be worth it), and it costs to much to use against guard's 5+ save.

The sad thing:
9 marines: 9 attacks, 4.5 hits, 2.25 wounds, about .75 wounds vs. another meq.

sgt with fist: 2 attacks, 1 hit, 0.833 wounds vs. another meq.

sgt with p. weapon, 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 0.75 wounds

Yes, the sergeant with fist does more damage than the rest of the squad in hth against marines.

That's why you charge to get the extra attacks.

Even charging, the marines do more, but just barely.
That's sad. We're talking about 9 marines vs. one model. And that's against meq's. Against anything tougher than a meq, it just gets worse and worse.

But then, this is why people consider tact marines kinda meh, but that's a different thread.

Well, they have boltguns for a reason.

The powerfist is just a great all around death dealer. Good against Infantry, good against vehicles should the need arise. It's the Boy Scout's motto: "Be Prepared", be ready for a stray walker intent on tarpitting a 200 point unit for the entire game. A powefist to the chops will fix 'em (or in the butt as the Marine Seargent's are known for )

Nine Space Marines can get luckier than a Veteran with a Power Fist. At most the Veteran is going to cause three wounds, while the nine Space Marines can cause up to eighteen. So while the average and the unlucky are both a wash, the Marines can cause up to six times as many wounds. That potential counts for something.

These days I find I'm better off with my Tactical Marines moving up to address an incoming enemy unit with a Flamer, or moving back into a firing line to address them with a Melta Gun or Plasma Gun. Sometimes they just stand and shoot. Better to get the full benefit of shooting rather than worrying about shooting yourself out of a charge with Assault weapons, or giving the enemy assault troops a free round of combat.

Sometimes it's worth it to run in the opposite direction, in order to prevent a charge!

With the layered defense of a forward unit 1" in front, I'll be able to withdraw the survivors of the charge out of combat using Combat Tactics and still be able to Fall Back far enough to Rally automatically if I roll 8+/2D6.

With the points saved on Power Fists, I can have a Sternguard squad do what they do best, which is murdering enemy units in Rapid Fire range.

To return to my earlier point about denying the enemy a free round of close combat, regardless of whether they get a Furious Charge or other charge bonuses, consider a unit of Tactical Space Marines facing an identical unit. The cost/benefit of shooting a unit that can assault next player turn, as opposed to shooting and then charging is:

20 Bolter shots, 13 hits, 7 wounds, 2 unsaved wounds to the target unit. No wounds to the attacking unit. The result is 2:0 in favour of the attacker.

10 Bolt Pistol shots, and then 18 normal attacks and 3 Power Fist attacks simultaneous with 9 normal attacks back and 2 Power Fist attacks. 6 shots hit, 3 wound, 1 unsaved wound. 9 attacks hit, 5 wound, 2 unsaved wounds. 2 Power Fist attacks hit, 1 unsaved wound. 5 normal attacks back hit, 2 wound, 1 unsaved wound. 1 Power Fist attack back hits, 1 unsaved wound. The final result being 3:2 in favour of the attacker.

Now that I think about it, didn't we have this discussion before? Oh, we did
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/229316.page

Ha! Neither GBF or deadshane have posted in this thread. That means I, suggestor of the double power weapon, am the true winner!

But you get the same number of attacks with one pow
...
Silence you! Clearly two power weapons on a sergeant is better than one!

LOL