I know a guy who knows a guy and the rules Alesso is working on will be free.

Square basers rejoice!

Actually I was chatting with Jim from Mantic at GenCon and he told me about the rules. I have his blessing to post this news and the official announcement should be out next week. He also showed me a picture of one of the new Orc greens and I have to say these will be their best minis yet. I hope they post some pics so everyone can see them.

I ordered the battleset last weekend!

I think this is actually a decent idea for a gaming company. Gives the rules greater distribution, and the only reason the rules exist at all is to drive model sales. Isnt that what GW taught us? Kinda disappointing to realize games rules are nothing more than adverts, but hey.

Heresy! The only way a business can survive is by squeezing every last penny out of their cowed fan base!

niceguyteddy wrote:I have to say these will be their best minis yet.

Well that shouldn't be too hard considering what their other minis look like


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grizgrin wrote:I think this is actually a decent idea for a gaming company. Gives the rules greater distribution, and the only reason the rules exist at all is to drive model sales. Isnt that what GW taught us? Kinda disappointing to realize games rules are nothing more than adverts, but hey.

I don't think that is actually such a big problem because it isn't mutually exclusive to making a good tight set of rules. Unfortunately for GW they could never settle on one set of rules and want you to have to upgrade your rules and army book every few years. After so many editions even old veterans have to roll their eyes and wonder if they really need warhammer verson 25.

The only problem that "free rules" sometimes suffer is lack of updates and support.

Though this can happen even when you have to pay through the nose for rules... well... unless you are a space marine...

But I think it is pretty cool they are making the rules free. I can only assume that they will still be selling rule books etc, but simply for having everything set down in a book, rather than printed off the internet?

It'll be interesting to see what Mantic comes up with.

I wonder if GW is gonna wake up.. Mantic could produce their entire core line and offer them to people for 25% or less of the cost of GW. (100 dollar mantic undead of just CORE units costs over 400$ in GW bucks)

Most intelligent businesses would consider this a big deal. We'll prob just get price increases tho to combat lower sales :p

I see 0 reason to buy GW vampire count skeletons, ghouls or wraiths and soon blood knights.. nor really any dwarves besides some specialty units mantic doesnt make. 40k is safe due to copywrite and a more unique design but WFB is basically middle earth + a few fluff revisions done later

brettz123 wrote:
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grizgrin wrote:I think this is actually a decent idea for a gaming company. Gives the rules greater distribution, and the only reason the rules exist at all is to drive model sales. Isnt that what GW taught us? Kinda disappointing to realize games rules are nothing more than adverts, but hey.

I don't think that is actually such a big problem because it isn't mutually exclusive to making a good tight set of rules. Unfortunately for GW they could never settle on one set of rules and want you to have to upgrade your rules and army book every few years. After so many editions even old veterans have to roll their eyes and wonder if they really need warhammer verson 25.

Who even said it was a problem? And really, if you are making your money in models, and using the rules as a leader into the model sales, it would stand to reason to make the best rules you can. I mean, that's really just paying for crap advertising isn't it?

Kirasu wrote:I wonder if GW is gonna wake up..

GW will "wake up" when they can't boost their profit margin anymore. Well, maybe they will. I cant help but wonder if they just take it for granted that at some point they wont be able to operate their business model anymore, and just plan to close up shop when that happens.

People have been pestering GW to do this for years, and now have a chance to put their money where their mouth is. My guess is that this noble experiment will fail, though.

Well, going by the interviews on Beast's of war, the idea behind the free rules is a Public beta, to get feed back and ideas to improve the rules from us the gamers, will be buying and playing the game. Its a pity GW didnt think of that idea of a public beta, but then it would get in the way of makeing money.........lol

It's not like you couldn't NOT download them if they weren't. See what I did there?

I want to see these Orcs. I'm becoming very impressed with Mantic as a company. They seem to be listening, and giving us what we want. Weird

That happens? Dez, you must be living in some silly wacky bizarro world, lol!

I wonder if the rules will only be free online.. or if you can get an official paper copy from Mantic or other places.

It would be NICE (but expensive for Mantic) if I could cart around a hard copy that the company made.. but I am perfectly fine with binding printer paper myself at a copy-center.

-P

If I understood the BoW interviews, the rules will not only be in th estarter boxes but al other boxes too!

I hope that is correct but not sure.

That just leaves more rubles in my pocket to spend on figs. Cause there's no way in bloody hell I'm shelling out $75 for a rulebook. That's about 3 regiments of Mantic figs, I believe. Warhammer just got more unappealing.

Hopefully no army books either!
£17.50 = a box or two of mantic's finest

Yes chibi I am pretty sure they come in all boxes, at least thats what I have heard from a friend who stocks mantic models and has been keeping up to date with the rules. Each box will also contain stats for the unit.

I really hope mantic do well as I think they have a good attitude to the game and their models are really nice.

Having seen a basic run over the rules I am slightly worried about the simplicity of the rules as they are quite basic. I think this is intentional, but it still concerns me. Apparently they can fit on 1 a4 sheet of paper.

I still think it is something I may get into purely because the undead models are amazing, and it could possibly replace WHFB for me.

Its the mantic elves that'll steal my money away from GW, i don't like the mantic dwarves but the elves look pretty good, though a little birdy tells me that they're a little weedy compared to the GW ones.

4M2A wrote:Having seen a basic run over the rules I am slightly worried about the simplicity of the rules as they are quite basic. I think this is intentional, but it still concerns me. Apparently they can fit on 1 a4 sheet of paper.

Wow, that's not a lot of rules. It is but an atom when you compare it to the gargantuan behemoth that is the BRB.

4M2A wrote:I still think it is something I may get into purely because the undead models are amazing, and it could possibly replace WHFB for me.

I don't think i'll ever switch from WHFB to mantic, just use their models in place for some of GW's ones.

The rules don`t fit on an a4 except you think of a summary, then yes.

The thing with Mantic's rules is that they are brand new.

WHFB has had 27ish? years to keep adding layer after layer, until eventually things become a lot more complicated than they need to be (imo).

By keeping it simple at the start, until they have a lot more models, it is the best idea for now.

Once they have hundreds of models from a huge variety of armies the core mechanics may need to change a bit.

No army books. apparently the rules for seperate units will be packed in thier boxes.

Thanks 4M2A

With regard to the HE's Mantic look more true scale as opposed to GW's herois figures.

I personally don't mind either from what I have seen.
If anything slightly favour Mantic as for my tastes I prefer true scale.
Mantic elves are skinny in comparison if you are used to seeing the pumped up GW elves.
They are elves after all and supposed to be lithesome imho

Will be getting the dwarves though not totally convinced, but for the money I may as well whack on a load of GS.

I am still under the impression that the marketing policy and game system will be excellent for large scale 28mm battles.
Mantic seem to have packaged their product very well.
Love the idea of a viable unit in a box

I've got the Dwarves and they are a bit taller and broader than GW dwarves, but I think it's not TOO obvious unless you're really picky about that sort of thing. I like the proportions on Mantic Dwarves a lot more, I have to say. I own a lot of GW dwarves, and I'm comparing the two and sighing, because I can see a lot of model replacement in my future

As to the rules, the WOTR rule basics fit on an a4 or two, and they've got lots of tactical depth. I imagine that Mantic can manage something good. I'll be looking to get in on the beta. Actually, the whole prospect of a "ground floor" plastic heavy fantasy wargame has me quite excited.

Duncan_Idaho- I don't claim to know a huge amount but the guy who told me (who happens to be very reliable and is a member of our gaming group) told us that it would actually be a very simple rules set and that it would be much smaller that many otehr large games. I don't think this is neccessarily a bad thing as in the BoW videos Allessio mentioned the idea is to be simple but tactical. The impression I get is it's more about placement of units and combining them that some units being better than others.

From the information I have been given it's going to be a very tactical game but not as in depth as WHFB, this allows much larger games and it will be a lot easier to pick. That's meant to be a key point of the game.

With the opportunity to go at it from scratch I really think this could be something really good as they aren't restrained by old mechanics as GW games are.

Da Boss wrote:I've got the Dwarves and they are a bit taller and broader than GW dwarves, but I think it's not TOO obvious unless you're really picky about that sort of thing. I like the proportions on Mantic Dwarves a lot more, I have to say. I own a lot of GW dwarves, and I'm comparing the two and sighing, because I can see a lot of model replacement in my future ...

Agree that it's exciting to see an alternative that could be big for rules and minis.

I also point out that the 'really picky' crowd you're mentioning about the Dwarf taller/broader thing tend to be the same lot who refuse to use BfSP Dwarves because they all look too 'samey' but then never get around to painting them and/or much beyond priming.

The orcs, from what I've seen, seem to be just this shy of freaking awesome. Couple those with the Aow characters and holy hell, I can finally have a Orc horde army that won't cost me my first born.

Actually the WHFB rules allow less tactical and strategical gameplay because of their complicatedness. Complexity does not mean thousands of rules.

Agamemnon2 wrote:People have been pestering GW to do this for years, and now have a chance to put their money where their mouth is. My guess is that this noble experiment will fail, though.

It will only fail if we let it, even if we let it. Personally whatever the rules are like I'm definitely getting mantic models for my Dwarves and starting an Undead army with the £30 box of 50 Zombies that they're releasing soon, no way in hell am I paying 45 quid for a rulebook, so I'm definitely looking for alternatives.

Guys, if you have any more mantic related questions let me know and i'll pass them on to either ronnie himself or chris (i email them occasionaly).

@ Death the zombie horde deal you mentioned is up for preorder.

niceguyteddy wrote:I know a guy who knows a guy and the rules Alesso is working on will be free.

Rules + Allesio + Free = rejoicing on hold for now!

Arctik_Firangi wrote:It's not like you couldn't NOT download them if they weren't. See what I did there?

I do.

Don't do it again.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:Actually the WHFB rules allow less tactical and strategical gameplay because of their complicatedness. Complexity does not mean thousands of rules.

Sounds like Rackhamspeak!

That's actually what everyone with some understanding of rules will tell you.

There is a reason why KISS is the mantra of every good game designer.

E.g. you could simply cut down the dice-rolling in both GW-games without losing anything and even make the game way more interesting on a tactical level. Look at FoW, originally it was based on GW-rules and every edition they minimize the amount of core rules and the game gets better every time they do it. Just think about why Chess or Go are played after all that time, do you think complicated rules would have allowed to stay. Even W/H is easier to learn, OK, you need to memorize the abilities, but the core is quite simple and it takes just 15-20 minutes to learn them.

And while we are on Rackham, they did many things the wrong way, but one thing they got right: Confrontation got too complicated. With several thousand cards interacting with each other noone, not even the designers, was any longer able to keeo such a system stable. The decisison to simplify it was the right one and it was not the one that caused problems. For the same reason W/H Mk II came out (Though they will have too put out Mk III faster than it took MkII if they keep up their monthly release level.)

GW adds layer after layer and even if they remove an old layer there are still layers that are more than 8 years old. Don`t tell me such a system is balanced or can be brought into balance without an total overhaul of all the rules.

fynn wrote:Well, going by the interviews on Beast's of war, the idea behind the free rules is a Public beta, to get feed back and ideas to improve the rules from us the gamers, will be buying and playing the game. Its a pity GW didnt think of that idea of a public beta, but then it would get in the way of makeing money.........lol

Sorry you're using a term I'm not familiar with... "improve rules"?

I always heard that miniatures rules were perfected in the mid-80s and since then all that remains is to tinker with them to make sure the newest models are the most powerful.

I find the GW rulesets just... lack. Sure the 8th edition of Warhammer is a neat hook to throw into the community, something to stir the fanbase and add focus where the designers want, but it is still the same old Warhammer World. Full of the same tired copywriting that has been there since I first got the 5th edition box the year it came out. I just can't see GW impressing me with creativity anytime soon. Even when something BIG happens (Albion, Storm 'o Chaos), no appreciable difference.

Mantic's world is seemingly not made yet! I kind of like the sound of a fantasy frontier. In the recent Beasts of War interviews, Ronnie said he wanted big tourney victories to be held as major victories in the game world, and for that to effect the timeline. I also get the feeling they'll be very friendly to fan-made rules and characters, not pretend like they do not exist.

Keep in mind I've been on the sidelines of GW's games for years, watching the switch from metal to plastic, the ever increasing costs, the perpetual bellyachin' (I do it too)... frankly, GW has lost their chance to convince me they're special. As someone who never invested much in GW, I'm very willing to give Mantic a chance.

I have the same feeling about WHFB. I have been playing it a small amount for a few years but it's never really had a huge attraction to me. I can understand wanting to keep the balance of power, but the way GW are doing it makes the whole thing seem a bit empty, at least imo. I also find some of the rules can lead to very slow, complex turns with little happening. I fully welcome a new (and cheaper) game.

As long as it avoids exploding 6's, 'wacky' resolution charts and other assorted nonsense...

...maybe!

But what about the dark Gothic "Everything either eats your hope and turns into bile projectiles or kills you for being in the way/alive/open to alternative viewpoints" atmosphere?

SilverMK2 wrote:The only problem that "free rules" sometimes suffer is lack of updates and support.

Hard to be any worse (re lack of support) than the GW rules we pay for................

As they will be releasing rules for units as they make the models the rules should stay up to date.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:Just think about why Chess or Go are played after all that time, do you think complicated rules would have allowed to stay.

The surest way to make me avoid a game is to make it more like chess or Go.

Simple rules do not automatically make for a better game. They make for a certain kind of game. A game that is often highly abstracted. The strategies may be more intellectual, but that doesn't nessecarily make them more strategic. I find highly abstract games extremely difficult. Not because I have any weaker of a brain or because I'm bad at strategies, but because I don't deal with mathematical abstractions well. When I was a kid and used to play chess I used to spend half the game maneuvering every piece into a realistic-looking battle formation. And then I'd lose. Because chess isn't about realism. I like games where my cavalry moves like real cavalry, because I'm good at studying real world things like how real horses move. I'm interested in reading about how Alexander the Great used the mousetrap to deal with chariots, because there's real stuff there I can wrap my brain around. I don't think a game that has more rules to reflect that is inherently any less strategic than a game where the horse moves in an L shape that can jump over pieces and don't think about why that is because it just doesn't matter now make your move, rookie.

I like this news from Mantic. I wonder how long it will be though before we hear the "GW = Porsche!" crowd come out claiming that Mantic products must automatically be inferior to GW products because GW products are more expensive because GW is the Porsche of gaming and therefore more expensive products are better products.

TTs with an overabundance of rules tend to go into a certain direction and its not one people seem to really like. Historical TT with too many rules were good at recreating certain battles in a way that was very similar to the original, but failed abysmally when applied to other Battles of their time.

You can observe this also with WHFB which in addition uses a rules system that could really have an overhaul of its basic mechanics and not only the bells and whistles.

A good system has a few straight rules on which modules can be docked on. And astonishingly such systems are very capable of depicting realistic battles (maybe not exactly the one big battle eaxctly the way it turned out, but this one big battle might have gone into a whole different direction if a general had decided to do react differently, and that's where it is good at: allowing for realistic battles with the real outcome being one of the possible outcomes, but not necessarily the only one posssible).

FoW is avery good example, basicly it was a varaiation of the WH rules and it turned into a really good system. What did they do? They stripped of the unneccessary layers streamlined the dice roles and went for a flowing game. Exactly what Mantic is aiming at.

@Chess
Chess is of course an abstraction, but not of western battle patterns but eastern ones (hence the "Schah eh mat") and this is reflected by the movements.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:TTs with an overabundance of rules tend to go into a certain direction and its not one people seem to really like.

And TTs with overly-simplified rules are no better. It's not a case of "simpler is better", there is a sweet spot that will differ from player to player somewhere in between.

@Chess
Chess is of course an abstraction, but not of western battle patterns but eastern ones (hence the "Schah eh mat") and this is reflected by the movements.

I'm pretty sure nowhere in the world were there battles with queens and kings in the army with pawns and knights, where for some reason the queen could outrun everyone in the army except for the castles. It's still an abstraction, no matter which culture it came from. You're welcome to enjoy that abstraction, as many people around the world do. But it is not the end-all be-all of gaming. I for one hate it.

While simple is good, as it means the game flows easier, it still needs to have enough rules to make it realistic. While many people enjoy very simple games (e.g. chess) many wargamers also like game that are realistic and have lots of options. You can't say that chess isn't tactical, but that doesn't mean everyone finds it interesting.

Most of the wargamers have met enjoy wargames for being able to get involved with the game, even the competitive players play for the complex and realistic rules. The ideal game has enough rules to be in depth and allow the players freedom, while simple enough to be easy to learn and quick to play. That is why Alessio's idea of simple makes better worries me.

Don't forget that the names we give the chess-pieces differ from the original ones. The queen was rather a field marshal in ancient times and his duty was to "race around" the battlefield and give orders in time, so the qeen piece still reflects the original situation on the battlefield.

Besides noone ist talking of dumbing down rules. The core-rules of KoW are still 12 pages. But there is no arguing that WHFB rules have become bloated. Nearly everyone at this years ETC can verify this. Even the judges had problems with the many contradictions in the rules. A trimming here and there to make it more compact wurd not only make the job for the judges easier, it would also increase use of more unconventional tactics. Complicated systems like WHFB or the late Confrontation 3.x tend to make people go for the safe way. There were hundreds of possibilities in Confrontation, but only a few were used because they were idiot-proof. The other options were discarded mostly because of their ambigous wording which caused problems during nearly every tournaments. And the same happened during this years ETC.

BTW, if you think WHFB is complex you have never played CoSims with their big ringbinders. That´s really something to swollow.

Also don´t mix up complicated with complex. KoW will still be a complex system, but not an complicated one.

Also the Queen's ability to move an unlimited number of spaces was a modern addition to the game. If you look at mediaeval variants of chess, the Queen often had a more limited range of movement to the King.

[/obscure knowledge]

Personally, I can't wait to have a read of what Mantic comes up with. Is something available to look at now or do we know when it will be?

If Mantic manage to take the rules which make games successful and trim them down then this could be a very good game. What lets WHFB down is unneccessary rules and bad wording. If a few of the complex rules were dropped (simplify movement, make moral more streamlined, and remove some of the more stupid special items) it would be a much better game.

Chimera_Calvin- I think the first rules come out in august however I think these may be a test rather than the real thing. For some reason mantic think listening to their customers is a good idea, no idea why

Ooh! this month! Time to dust off my GW dwarfs (who won't see WHFB 8th anyway) and have a go.

If I like it I'll sell the GW stuff and use the proceeds to buy a Mantic army twice the size...

Hopefully Mantic gets their rules to be something closer to WFB vs. Confrontation.

WFB = popular, big seller, here to stay (for now!)

Confrontation = Not so popular, big seller at closeout, almost gone?

Though honestly, I think the majority of Mantic's sales go to WFB players looking for affordable alternatives.

Wait sorry about that I had a brain failure moment it's meant to be october.

I certainly would not mind picking up some Dwarfs to augment my GW ones. The only possible issue is that in a lot of the tournament literature I've read you must use GW models. Granted it has been several YEARS since I last did a real tournament so things might have changed. But we'll see. I'm all for more competition for GW to maybe drive down some prices.

Well compare the number of the official tournaments to the number of gamer-organized tournaments....

Hello Brothers

What i think would be a great thing is a "magic the gathering" aprouch of rules...

There is: a simples funny set of cores rules, the type you just get used over the third game and so keep goying on. And lots, and lots, and more lots of special rules.

Im wainting for the beta rules to start poking on it, and post my opinion on this or that on every forum i found, just because i know that the designers would read something of it...

And i really dont want complicated morale/psicholoy tests.

Their minis are tempting. I hope one day they can produce a sci-fi game.... maybe then I can break myself free of this 40k addiction.

I had a chat with the guys about the rules. Here's how it went.

When you made him derp you went overboard, putting too much caricatures on 1 character blows it away. The concept was good.


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aka_mythos wrote:Their minis are tempting. I hope one day they can produce a sci-fi game.... maybe then I can break myself free of this 40k addiction.

This

Mmm mantic rules free? sounds interesting. I could totally buy 2 of their undead battleboxes! $130 and a ton of models!

kenshin620 wrote:Mmm mantic rules free? sounds interesting. I could totally buy 2 of their undead battleboxes! $130 and a ton of models!

For another fifty you can get one of their army deals. Currently they have a deal for each army with about 160 models, including some metals, for $179.99US, 99 british.

Bad conversion rates, the current rates translate 99 pounds to 152$US. Moral is : pay them in pounds.

They charge in pounds. It only shows once you complete a transaction though.
At least that's how its been the 3 times I've ordered from them.

They must have to manually adjust the widget on the site.

I think that the rules themselves are pretty unimportant, there are plenty out there competing with WFB, one more will not make much differance, but a successful Mantic has the potential work out well for all gamers with even a passing interest in WFB.

Now I don't suppose for a minute GW are unaware of what Mantic are doing but if Mantic start to draw significant market share of fantasy miniature sale from GW may well act.

In the short term I could see GW increase the number of models in each regiment box. This would lessen any current advantage that Mantic have at no great increase in cost, being as IMHO GW minis are better but Mantic allow bigger, quicker army building.

On the down side GW may see the acceptance of large boxes of reasonable quality minis with fewer options/more limited poses being accepted by the market and cut their cloth accordingly when planning future releases.

All of this is of course speculation and changes nothing with the single most important aspect of GW/Mantic fantasy mini's and that is why neither of them can make a really good plastic bloomin' DWARVES!!

notprop wrote:
All of this is of course speculation and changes nothing with the single most important aspect of GW/Mantic fantasy mini's and that is why neither of them can make a really good plastic bloomin' DWARF!!

But I like the lotr Dwarves!

even if they are single piece and small

kenshin620 wrote:

notprop wrote:
All of this is of course speculation and changes nothing with the single most important aspect of GW/Mantic fantasy mini's and that is why neither of them can make a really good plastic bloomin' DWARF!!

But I like the lotr Dwarves!

even if they are single piece and small

True, but aren't they metal?

WOTR is what you get when you dump all the legacy rules from WFB.

I really don't think GW's gonna do anything even if Mantic's rules far surpass Warhammer's, which sadly, I doubt. Privateer's made some big opening moves already, expanding by updating to Mk II formats, generating more $$ from gamers who need to switch to the next edition, which if anything should have resonated with GW. Not only that, but the fact that GW has the essential monopoly over the wargaming industry as a whole means that whatever happens I doubt it'll affect them in any significant manner.

notprop wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:

notprop wrote:
All of this is of course speculation and changes nothing with the single most important aspect of GW/Mantic fantasy mini's and that is why neither of them can make a really good plastic bloomin' DWARF!!

But I like the lotr Dwarves!

even if they are single piece and small

True, but aren't they metal?

These ones aint

I think that the rules being free will still help them a lot as I don't intend to shell out 90$+ dollars for another rulebook.

poipo32 wrote:I think that the rules being free will still help them a lot as I don't intend to shell out 90$+ dollars for another rulebook.

Seconded. What with the $75 Rulebook and $90 Starter Set, I was probably going to just settle for getting the mini-rulebook off ebay and suck it up for another version of "how can we increase the model count of the game"-hammer.

The Mantic announcement couldn't have come at a better time. Vaya con dios , Warhammer.

Anyone want to post pictures of painted Mantic miniatures in this thread to sweeten the bait?

Here are some of the scouts I painted:



And here is a WIP spearman:



Mantic plastics aren't multi-part, they're generally two piece models with limited posability. The detail isn't as crisp as GWs, but for rank and file troopers, they're really pretty cool. I find them to be a good bargain and fun to paint. By all accounts the undead are better models than the elves.

Le Grognard wrote:

poipo32 wrote:I think that the rules being free will still help them a lot as I don't intend to shell out 90$+ dollars for another rulebook.

Seconded. What with the $75 Rulebook and $90 Starter Set, I was probably going to just settle for getting the mini-rulebook off ebay and suck it up for another version of "how can we increase the model count of the game"-hammer.

The Mantic announcement couldn't have come at a better time. Vaya con dios , Warhammer.

GW Starter is $99, a dollar shy of $100. They are still afraid to list it in triple digits.

I am waiting for a friend to make a big order of starters and snagging a rulebook cheap.
No way I'm, spending that much just for rules.

I just don't see the fuss about Mantic's models. Sure, they are cheaper, but they just look wrong to me. Elves are too skinny, Ghouls look...well, like angry monks, and the Dwarfs are pretty terrible.

Think I'll stick with Fantasy for the time being. Perhaps Mantic will tickle my fancy at some point the in future.

I'm not going to defend Mantic's models blindly, but elves are supposed to be lithe. I think the bigger problem is that the poses make them seem less graceful than they should be.

If nothing else, Mantic is showing one reason GW's plastics cost more: it's not just profiteering, they really do have better products.

I'm with you, Polonius, who needs tons of options for rank and file troopers that get thrown into large blocks where you can't see detail from 3 feet away, anyway? GW characters, mantic rank and file; though the new mantic dwarf characters are nice.

I especially see VC and TK players using mantic for undead rank and file.

I think that Mantic have some nice figures but most armies sell on the independant characters. Even within the Citadel ranges I dont like how the characters are mismatched with some units for example the latest Skaven releases are very stylised and they dont sit well with some of the older figures. I'd be concerned about the quality of a ruleset that is free as the recources to develop it may be limited, especially if they are trying to undercut competitors.

As for competition within miniatures ranges. I'd much rather see new companies like Privateer Press who have moved away from the Tolkien derived fantasy standards. Thats why I liked seeing the Skaven as one of the big box races for WHFB, it takes the game away from being generic fantasy into a distict mythos. What I would like to see from Mantic is a new distinct army or armies that says they are different and doing their own thing or a better quality product than Citadel.

What is so bad about the Mantic Dwarfs?

I like them. They look like they would walk, not waddle like GW dwarves.
And I think the look they chose makes them usable for Chaos Dwarfs as well as regular.

As for developing an original race, I am sure that will come. But you need to establish your model line first.
Remember, White Dwarf used to do articles for D&D before they created their own stuff.

The Elves arent Elves

They are ALIENS!

What exactly do you count those as? Great imaginative use of bitz though.

I play tomb kings and Use mantic mini's. Go mantic, i support thee.

Well, there's a mix I'd never really expected. They actually look pretty cool, though.

skrulnik wrote:

GW Starter is $99, a dollar shy of $100. They are still afraid to list it in triple digits.

I am waiting for a friend to make a big order of starters and snagging a rulebook cheap.
No way I'm, spending that much just for rules.

Maybe where you live, it is well over the 100 mark here where I am, and our dollar is near parity with yours. They have no qualms at listing rediculous prices.

Sarrazon wrote:Well, there's a mix I'd never really expected. They actually look pretty cool, though.

Yea. I never saw it coming until someone shouted "Hey! I know now what the ugly greatcoat heads are for!"

And now we have Thin Body, Big Head Aliens with shields running around!

poipo32 wrote:When you made him derp you went overboard, putting too much caricatures on 1 character blows it away. The concept was good.

Haaah! Cheers. I didn't even know there was a word for that.

Anyone going to the Mantic open day (where they'll be demoing the rules)

Can this week be over yet? News from the lads via thier Facebook page:

"This week here at Mantic is going to be exciting, it is Game Week! We will be taking an look at our up and coming rules set, which we are going to release for beta testing this weekend! So make sure you are signed up to our newsletter to be able to download your copy."

Their website is the mot awkward and crappiest I have seen for ages BUT their models do have some promise. Although, for the life of me, I can't find where the open day is. Nowhere that I can see in their dead end infested website can I find the location. I am guessing 9 Oct at their Nottingham HQ but it doesn't say!

Their marketing is totaly different but then again compare GW from when tehy first started to now is probably completely different too!

If they do a 40K version, which I am sure they will think about then things might hot up.

I am just wondering if there is a link between GW and Mantic? Their offices are not that far away from each other! Hmmm......

Ronnie Renton, the owner of Mantic, used to work for GW and was their Global Marketing Director, until he was "let go" in 2007.

http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/ronnie-renton/5/5a4/29a

There's nothing he doesn't know about GW's sales operation....

With due respect to GW they seem to have lost out then.
Ronnie and his team have some good ideas about packaging their products.

The website is a tad confusing as mentioned. But at least they don't have that annoying tendency to keep the fans in the dark nonsense that GW now employ regarding releases. Long may it continue.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:With due respect to GW they seem to have lost out then.
Ronnie and his team have some good ideas about packaging their products.

The website is a tad confusing as mentioned. But at least they don't have that annoying tendency to keep the fans in the dark nonsense that GW now employ regarding releases. Long may it continue.

I thought was was solved? They cannot release info until they are ready and in the right order to get marketing right. Just because you're not told when you want....

Nice find Osbad. I hope he does well with it, I really do. It would be nice to see others in the marketplace.

Is anyone carrying Mantic Product Stateside ?

N.M. I checked TheWarstore and they are carrying it.

The Army deals look very attractive.

You really are being silly proboscis picking monkey..

Firstly: Solved where?
I don't see every post on Dakka for goodness sake.

Secondly: As has been stated over and over again, many other companies provide information about forthcoming releases. It is standard practice in all forms of consumable goods. Model companies produce annual release schedules. They have a great deal more viable competitors than GW
The apparent paranoia and secrecy only seems acceptable to GW and its sychophanboyz.

Mantic have been doing just the opposite.
The dwarves range have had pictures and videos out for ages. Interesting when GW's former head of marketing can manage good PR and marketing when the former can't.
Again, GW's loss when someone of that calbre leaves the marketing department. They obviously haven't got a replacement yet




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not sure Adam, but they were at GenCon so assume they will be.

The direction that Mantic has taken wrt marketing/PR tell me that there is someone higher up than where Ronnie was that has control of those areas.

Now that he has free reign, we can lament that Mantic is showing us what GW could have done.

There is still some top-end turnover that would need to happen at GW to change the mindset they have for marketing their product.

It is a very different theory. GW is actively courting the flavor of the month codex creep chasers. Because of that, they don't want anyone to know what is coming next- otherwise you might not buy this month's obsession.

Mantic is marketing the ease and quality of their products- which appeals to both a new player, or an old player adding a new unit. Their free rules is a stroke of genius, which will garner their good will for months to come. The lower quality and lower cost rank and file miniature is a cunning niche. GW might have better sculpts- but will you notice when there are fifty of them coming across the board at you in a 2 foot square block?

Mantic has added my heart, and my dollars, to their rank and file. I can't wait until they branch out into their own races, or go Sci-fi.

While Mantic's minis might not be as good on the whole as GW's, they're quite a bit better than the first single pose plastics GW put out many moons ago. I see promise in their figs that if they survive long enough to start developing their lines and improving their models then they will be an exciting alternative to GW.

IMO they are making up for it in other ways with the way the bases are designed and the topic of this thread - free rules. It is very smart considering one of the biggest detractors for getting new players into games of this sort is the initial investment cost.

I am excited to see their rule set. GW never seems to get it quite right. They make some things better and then botch something else.

Also if the rules don't suit, so what?
you ain't lost anything.

You still have a bunch of workable minis.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:You really are being silly proboscis picking monkey..

Yeah thanks.

Secondly: As has been stated over and over again, many other companies provide information about forthcoming releases. It is standard practice in all forms of consumable goods. Model companies produce annual release schedules.

Who does? Annual release schedules only work with a new model so they, basically, remodel an existing line and re-release it so you can buy the new stuff? So, who's being ripped off then? Imagine an annual re-release of Orks or IG! There's dissent now, but in order to have an annual release schedule you need a new model, so imagine the uproar!

GW tell you about forthoming releases, they always do, but only when they are ready which involves a remarkable amount of work to get to the shelves.

Mantic have been doing just the opposite.
The dwarves range have had pictures and videos out for ages. Interesting when GW's former head of marketing can manage good PR and marketing when the former can't.
Again, GW's loss when someone of that calbre leaves the marketing department. They obviously haven't got a replacement yet.

Of course Mantic have been telling the world about the dwarves. It's a brand new game system, they have to tell the world what they're doing otherwise there would be no hype. They have no current model lines to devalue!!

GW have 40 different races across 3 main lines!! They cannot simply churn them out plus look at re-invigorating stuff such as IoB they have just released. Of course Mantic are releasing lots in one go. They have just started! Once race of people would be boring wouldn't it?

Me, being silly? Don't think so. Please keep personal comments to yourself.

http://www.airfix.com/new-for-2010/

Note it contains both new models and rereleases.
Every other model manufacturer, makes such schedules. They cannot always be wholly fulfilled but the hobbyist knows what to expect and roughly when.

One only has to look to the release of the Island of Blood to show what you say to be misguided. Out of respect for the OP will decline to comment further. Your arguments don't hold up to scrutiny but to answer them would take the thread further OT.

Calling someone a silly monkey is hardly making a personal comment btw. Is a figure of speech with jocular overtones. If you took offense I apologise as non was intended.

I assumed it was merely a reference to his avatar pic.

Me too....

Yup that was the inspiration, it being a proboscis monkey.

Now if I really wanted to get personal ....

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Yup that was the inspiration, it being a proboscis monkey.

Now if I really wanted to get personal ....

Despite the similarities I actually believe his avatar is that of a troll.

I love this idea of free rules. I've been looking for a fantasy system to start for awhile. Between the nice (IMO) undead units and the rules, I think Mantic will soon have some of my money....

And like someone said, if the rules don't work out, I didn't lose any money on that and I have a neat proxy-able army.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:http://www.airfix.com/new-for-2010/

Note it contains both new models and rereleases.
Calling someone a silly monkey is hardly making a personal comment btw. Is a figure of speech with jocular overtones. If you took offense I apologise as non was intended.

It is a Troll rather than a monkey, and yes, that is how the flame wars start, just stopping it before it got out of hand. The link contains details for new models and re-releases? Which indicates new stuff and stuff that had been discontinued which has been resurrected or has been repackaged to make it look new. GW stuff can't work like that.

It isn't about my argument not holding under scrutiny, it's about seeing what's in front of your own eyes. You can't re-release something that is already on the shelves! Plus, releasing a new airfix kit is far, far different from releasing game models and isn't a viable comparison.

Is anyone else having problems signing up for the newsletter on mantic games? I think Zombie week might yield more than one regiment being fielded in a GW army!

No of course not, my bad.

Mantic games are not comparable. Airfix are totally disimilar No one is comparible to the divine GW. It was right before my eyes all the while.
GW are a company whose production methods, marketing and pricing strategies are wholly unique.

They are immortal and infallible producers of the world's greatest consumables and their models are not plastic but made from fairy dust. They can't possibly say what or when they are going to release in fear of the floods caused by customers peeing themselves with uncontrolled excitement.

Ye gods preserve us!
The Airfix site has 2010 releases

New Tool
Aircraft 1:72 Scale
A01071A - Spitfire Mk1a
A03080 - Messerschmitt Bf110 C/D
A03081 - Messerschmitt Bf110 E
A03082 - North American F-86F Sabre
A03083 - Canadair Mk.4 Sabre
A03085 - BAe Hawk T1
A04050 - BAe Harrier GR9

Note NEW TOOL
Sprues have been taken to Model Shows. Photos of sprues have appeared on forums. Trevor Snowden head of Airfix is there happily talking to customers and letting them take sprue shots. They are plastic consumables. Same as the Mantic Dwarves.

Mantic have been discussing and showing their upcoming releases for ages. There is no earthly reason why GW cannot do the same. Give it a rest you silly troll.

Not to mention Mantic let dakka help name a new unit that the had not released at that point.

sonofruss wrote:Not to mention Mantic let dakka help name a new unit that the had not released at that point.

Wait what? When did this happen? Did I miss a cool opportunity?

Elmodiddly wrote:
It is a Troll rather than a monkey, and yes, that is how the flame wars start, just stopping it before it got out of hand. The link contains details for new models and re-releases? Which indicates new stuff and stuff that had been discontinued which has been resurrected or has been repackaged to make it look new. GW stuff can't work like that.

Except that GW has done exactly that. They reduced the Cadian and Catachan boxes from 20 to 10 men, exact same models, and re-leased them. When they repackaged a lot of WFB elite metal infantry into boxes they did a re-release. A lot of the direct order only stuff are old models that are made available again, which seems, you know, like they were released again. Or perhaps re-released.

It isn't about my argument not holding under scrutiny, it's about seeing what's in front of your own eyes. You can't re-release something that is already on the shelves! Plus, releasing a new airfix kit is far, far different from releasing game models and isn't a viable comparison.

So, we're supposed to see what's in front of our eyes, yet you're claiming it's impossible to re-release a product that is already in the market. So you can't rebrand, re-package, re-price, re-label, or even slightly modify a product that it's commerce? It seems that companies do that all the time. I'm guessing airfix, which has a ludicrously huge range, does product runs but not continuous production, meaning some kits might not always be available to wholesalers. That's the other thing to remember about GW: it does a lot of it's sales directly to consumers, or at wholesale to retailers. Most other manufacturers of pretty much anything sell almost entirely to distributors.

I'd like to hear more about how a box of plastic sprues is different from a box of plastic sprues that has rules in a codex. It seems to me that the two are pretty similar from a manufacturing point of view.

Did someone sign up for the newsletter? I think I have problems with it and I want to read the beta... Is it released this weekend?

I am delighted with the news. I want to see the new rules (and in addition, I believe that Cavatore is one of the best designers of rules at present).

I'm signed up for the newsletter. They said the rules will be out this weekend for the open beta, once they're done with Game Week.

Of course, if they miss this date that they have foolishly committed to, I will raeg for days on the internet. Or, you know, I will remain eager for the promised product.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:No of course not, my bad.

Mantic games are not comparable. Airfix are totally disimilar No one is comparible to the divine GW. It was right before my eyes all the while.
GW are a company whose production methods, marketing and pricing strategies are wholly unique.

Mantic have been discussing and showing their upcoming releases for ages. There is no earthly reason why GW cannot do the same. Give it a rest you silly troll.

Before we start, enough of the "Silly troll" stuff. There is no need and in order to act mature you need to step away from the infantile trolling behaviour.

GW are not unique, but are far, far different from Airfix. Airfix make a model sprue. They box it. They send it out. That's it. There is no further support required apart from building instructions in the box. It does nothing else after you have built it They stay the same and are in genreal only modded by undercarriage up/down, 2 missile options.

There's not even real photo's, just a bit of artwork which gets updated every year to make it look modern which is why it get re-released often, it's just a new box. In general, (yes, there are always exceptions) you'd buy one Harrier GR4. It then gets hung from the ceiling by thread of acts as a dust magnet on a desk.

GW stuff involves buying 2 maybe 3 of one unit type, Necron Warriors, SM's etc. Then you can do anything with it, remodel it, different paintjobs, poses, weapons, bases etc.

If it is a new model character it has new rules, new uses and paintwork all of which are playtested for many, many hours beforehand, rules written, models professionallly painted and articles written to include the new rules, play styles etc. The models are also coverted to show the many different ways it can be used, all to entice you to buy and use.

THEN you play with them!

GW cannot tell you it's releasing a new model many, many months before it is up for release. It is bad for business as, if it is a replacement model, it instantly devalues the current range on the shelves. This is stuff they have already paid to be made, boxed and shipped. This is money that cannot get back. Their profits go down.

At the moment they are concentrating on IoB. Until that it up and running and the planned adverts, articles, pictures have done the rounds they don't have enough space to do other things. Imagine White Dwarf 500 pages for one month then nothing for the rest of the year because you all know whats coming! There is also the fact that GW do not have dedicated staff who only work, model and write rules for one race. They all multi-task, being involved in different races at different times so therefore cannot, quite literally, devote all their time to all facets, so a business strategy has to be developed.

Mantic have released all their model ranges because they only have 3 and are not replacing any other line!

Airfix are a completely different business with a different business strategy.

Back on track, the Mantic rules set is a beta and having seen the videos where the rules were discussed this will play a lot different to other game systems. Is anyone going to the Open Day in October?

Elmodiddly wrote:

There's not even real photo's, just a bit of artwork which gets updated every year to make it look modern which is why it get re-released often, it's just a new box. In general, (yes, there are always exceptions) you'd buy one Harrier GR4. It then gets hung from the ceiling by thread of acts as a dust magnet on a desk.

GW stuff involves buying 2 maybe 3 of one unit type, Necron Warriors, SM's etc. Then you can do anything with it, remodel it, different paintjobs, poses, weapons, bases etc.

This is only possible with GW kits. Ork players definitely have not been doing the very same thing to Airfix models, dollar store toys, or any other thing that strikes their fancy.

Elmodiddly wrote:
If it is a new model character it has new rules, new uses and paintwork all of which are playtested for many, many hours beforehand, rules written, models professionallly painted and articles written to include the new rules, play styles etc. The models are also coverted to show the many different ways it can be used, all to entice you to buy and use.

THEN you play with them!

This is a good point. Airfix would not tell you how to use their models. The rules development would certainly take time, and posting specifics would be unwise. I highly doubt that they do not have a game plan for the year, however. The information of what armies are being updated this year could be released without any harm to their business.

Elmodiddly wrote:
GW cannot tell you it's releasing a new model many, many months before it is up for release. It is bad for business as, if it is a replacement model, it instantly devalues the current range on the shelves. This is stuff they have already paid to be made, boxed and shipped. This is money that cannot get back. Their profits go down.

I have three counter-examples for this assertion- The new Daemonettes were reviled when they were shown. Hordes of Chaos players rushed out to buy up the current models, before they were discontinued.

The Cadian and Catachans, went up in price per guardsmen when they were repackaged. At that point, they were bought up very quickly.

Ork Boyz went the same way- they positively spiked in demand once word of the new codex came out, and the idea of a 10 man boyz set. Likewise, demand increased for the old Rollerskate Trukks when the new True LOS rules were announced by a certain type of gamer.

Elmodiddly wrote:

At the moment they are concentrating on IoB. Until that it up and running and the planned adverts, articles, pictures have done the rounds they don't have enough space to do other things. Imagine White Dwarf 500 pages for one month then nothing for the rest of the year because you all know whats coming! There is also the fact that GW do not have dedicated staff who only work, model and write rules for one race. They all multi-task, being involved in different races at different times so therefore cannot, quite literally, devote all their time to all facets, so a business strategy has to be developed.

Imagine, if you will, a world where we know what GW is releasing this year. White Dwarf is no longer filled with vague hints, product announcements, or advertisements for the latest and greatest. Instead, it morphs to a sort of developer's journal, where we see the next big thing a sprue, or model at a time, and hear about the theory behind the army as it is developed. People become emotionally invested in the product, and pore over it looking for rules hints and clues. Suddenly, the magazine reeks of quality content and it has something to say. Personally, I think subscriptions would increase.

You are right about the way GW operates now. But they don't have to operate that way. They could be so much more.

You guys are annoying about GW's business model vs Mantic's.

Have fun over there and give us a break

Keep this thread about the RULES, especially news about them.

Elmo was just joshing you man.

But if you insist on talking gibberish and trolling you have no right to complain.

So you are saying it is okay for GW to sell stuff at full price then spring a release and possibly make obsolete the kit/codex that you have just paid full whack for?
You are also implying that no other business has this problem of what to do when a new range is about to be launched. This is blatently false.
Every manufacturer faces this. Most however elect to preview their wares and discount surplus stock to shift it.

On the above list, The Harrier GR9 is the first kit by anyone of the type in 1/72 scale. Never been done before.
They have never before released the Canadian produced Sabre. The American Sabre AFAIK has never been done other than when Airfix was owned by Heller and used the latter's mould. The Hawk was released as a Red Arrows aircraft replacing an earlier mould.. I believe this one will also have different markings and an extra sprue for underwing stores not carried by the display team, so will indeed have a new piccy on the lid.

Not sure which of the two Bf110's was the old kit but it has now been replaced, with a new tooling, plus a boxing of the NEW TOOL of the other sub-type.
The Spitfire also has replaced a fairly recent kit.
New Tool means just that, not a reboxing.

That means most of the new kits replace old toolings which have been re released since the takeover by Hornby. Kits that were still on the shelves.

What have have rules got to to with sales and PR. (Rhetorical question - no need to answer)
They make plastic kits. GW makes plastic kits. Whether you choose to play with them afterwards is entirely up to the owner.
It doesn't stop Mantic as has been repeatedly said. Anima Tactics figures get previewed on the Cipher forum

This argument started because I said Mantic are doing things right IMHO. If you disagree fine. I don't give a monkey's (turn of phrase before you get upset again)

It will be interesting to see what happens in the future when Mantics moulds need replacing/models updating. My money is on Ronnie NOT following the GW method.
As you have yourself acknowledged the guy is on the ball where packaging and marketing are concerned. Long may it continue, Unlike this argument. I too am tired of it and am heartly sick of the pathetic excuses made on behalf of GW.
They can take their clandestine behaviour and shove it in their stupid black boxes.

I apologise again to the OP for going OT and this is the last I will say on the matter. I seriously suggest that you let it rest too.

It's called a discussion Poipo, it's a shame that Chibi has chosen to turn it onto something else entirely. Shame.

It depends upon when Mantic decide when the weekend starts doesn't it. The rules could be up for download this afternoon or tomorrow morning.

Does not matter when really but can't wait to see how they tackle stuff when you start from scratch. The Youtube vids gave lots of clues and with the inclusion of different rules for tournaments such as chess clock style play it's going to break new ground methinks.

Chibi - Apple do exactly that. The old iPod range was on sale at full price to the minute the new range was announced last week.

Mantic are in a different place to GW, starting from scratch is very different to supporting an ongoing model-gaming line. They can, and have to, do things differently to an existing games company.

Airfix is an apples and oranges comparison as there isnt an ongoing, 20yr old game involved with their models. Both making plastic models /= same market segment, weirdly enough.

Anyways, according to the Mantic Games and Alessio's Facebook pages, the rules will be sent via Mantic Newsletter at 6pm GMT. A mere hour and five minutes away.

I just got it!

PDF download incoming..

Play the Kings of War Beta now - Free Rules Inside! - http://eepurl.com/2K9Y

Rules and an army list as well. The rules are 12 pages, which seems long enough to be comprehensive, but not ridiculous. Reading starts... now!

Downloaded and quick read..

I think this could be a really fun little game. Units stay on the table without loss until they completely route off the table.

However, they urge beta testers to try to play... without giving any army unit statistics or costs? No Army list I found.

Is this info on a website somewhere?

EDIT.. WHY yes it is.. erg.. my fault for jumping right to the rules..

Elmodiddly wrote:It's called a discussion Poipo, it's a shame that Chibi has chosen to turn it onto something else entirely. Shame.[/qoute]



I have only raised a point of opinion. You have turned it into something else, and have constantly refused to drop the subject so you are at least equally culpable.
At least I had the courtesy to apologise to the Op
Now you are flaming, which after what you said is damned hypocritical.
I only visited this thread to see if anyone had annouced the newsletter. Will now unsubscribe again

If you have anything you want to say send me a PM instead of snivelling. Now I am not joking.

re iPods
Thanks for the correction. I was not aware of Apple's tactics, but I still fail to see how selling items at full price on the eve of obsolescence is ethically sound, or a good way of winning goodwill. Which was the point at which I came in, and shall depart.