Over the next week, I plan on buying:
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1x Deceiver
1x Destroyer Lord
1x Regular Lord
9x Wraiths
20x Immortals
40x Warriors
2x Heavy Destroyers
3x Monoliths
9x Tomb Spyders
20x Scarab Swarms
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There are three army types I had considered at the 2k level:
#1: Destroyer Lord with 9x Wraiths + 3x Monoliths keeping 20 warriors in reserve.
#2: Destroyer Lord with 9x Wraiths + Lord on Foot + 20 Immortals + 2 heavy destroyers.
#3: Lord on Foot with 20 warriors (reserve?) + 9x Tomb spyders + Scarabs galore.
A friend let me borrow a few necrons / proxy scenario #1 in a game against Mech IG. Three vendettas, 5 chimeras, 3 leman russ.....my wraiths weathered two turns of shooting without a loss; I couldn't seem to roll a 1 or a 2. I don't pretend to believe this will happen consistently, and was looking for some advice.
1. Thoughts on these three list types? Suggestions on changes?
2. I like the idea of wraiths + Destroyer Lord. Thoughts on that configuration in particular?
3. General thoughts on massed scarabs? Probably with Disruptor fields?
4. Thoughts on the Deceiver? In my game he moved up behind the monoliths until turn three, then broke free....and took three vendettas worth of lascannons to the face and died without doing anything the whole game. Obviously I should have used him better. And while my wraiths survived miraculously, one of my monoliths immobilized itself on dangerous terrain while a second got immobilized from a lascannon.
Well, as a mech IG player, I can tell you that Scarabs with disruption fields wreck my vehicles by glancing, especially with a destroyer lord. 2+ cover save makes me want to die.
I am still in disbelief... however, I will ask my friend friday for Necron advise...
I have always been a fan of the Wraiths with their ability to turboboost through terrain...
My other necron friend has used the Deceiver for his ability to rearrange his side of the board, pin enemy units, and annoying IC by declining fights on the count that he does not feel like it.
Mass Scarbs leave me uneasy because, they are not necrons, they are toughness 3... I am also not sure what happens if you are wounded by a Blast that is S6+, do you lose two models? I could see one slot of scarabs w/distruption and 2 slots of wraiths... (although my friend runs destroyers because of the wound saturation from a full squad)
Despite the invulnerable save Wraiths are incredibly fragile, pretty much any decent army should be able to kill a single Tactical Squad in a single round of shooting and thats essentially all they are once the bullets start flying (if you drop them all they aren't getting WBB). They don't exactly put out a huge amount of damage either (ala Eldar syndrome, hit hard then fall over to return attacks). Both the first and second lists are built heavily around Wraiths and I really don't think they will do particularly well. The first is probably better than the second, at least you can hide behind the Monolith Wall as you move up but doing this means you are moving pretty slowly. You also have very little shooting, particularly anti tank firepower, which means more often than not those Wraiths are going to be forced to try and open up transports before being shot in the face. The second one has more firepower but with nothing to hide behind those Wraiths are going to disappear pretty quickly.
The third list I think has potential, not going to be incredibly competitive (but you have decided to play Necrons so hopefully realise thats out of the question from the start) but dealing with all those Spyders is going to be a real pain. While they aren't as mobile as the Wraiths they can take far more punishment before dying and hit quite a bit harder as well.
Destroyer Lords are pretty good, they can be a real pain to deal with for many armies as he can't be ID which make running him around by himself a viable option. Throw in the upgrade which makes him able to WBB with full wounds (can't remember what its called) and he can spend the whole game chasing tanks with his Warscythe without really worrying about dying. I would probably make sure you have a more support based Lord (with Res Orb etc) first though.
The most effective Necron lists I have seen have all been based heavily around Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers. Necrons are never going to have a great time dealing with a heavily Mech list but massed S6 shooting (which can still glance AV12+) is probably your best bet to do it. The mobility of Destroyers helps keep them out of combat and negates the quickest way to kill off Necrons, Sweeping Advance. T5 and WBB means they can generally take a decent amount of shooting as well, particularly if you can keep a Res Orb nearby.
First, +1 to everything Powerguy said. Couple of things to add:
- As he said, Wraiths can be fairly fragile, but a unit of Wraiths attached to a Destroyer Lord equipped with a Warscythe, Phase Shifter (4++ save), and Res Orb can make for a pretty nasty CC unit.
- If I take a foot lord, I usually put a Res Orb and VoD on him. It can make for some nice last minute objective grabs, or in conjunction with a scarab screen, it provides a handy GTFO ability if your opponent is about to engage your warriors in CC.
- If I use C'tan, I usually use them as counter charge units. Strong CC, but limited mobility makes them especially suited for this role.
- heavy Destroyers are highly unreliable in my experiance. You usually need at least a unit of threee to make sure you damage what you are shooting at.
If you have a destroyer lord together with wraiths, he will not be together with his warriors, because he would tie himself up in the enemy line.
so the enemy has a good chance to get an easy sweep against the warriors and that is the game. Monoliths have the problem, they are damn solid, but slow and they dont do very much damage. Their main strength is blocking the enemy and dragging necs around.
If you play the wraiths more cautious, I would go for a few destroyers to back them up with shooting and nec models. They can snipe between monoliths pretty good.
Against ork mek lists you will have about 0,0 fun, the bugiies will block the monoliths out the wraiths will get killed soon by ork counters, and deathrollas take out monoliths quickly.
Against well deployed mech guard, you will get grinded to death by templates (Manticore Executioner, the trick with shooting on monolith and scattering behind it into the infantry, you know... ) and lascannons and outmanoeuvred by the quicker chimeras. Against mass orks you could have fun with monolith ordnance and concentrated wraith power.
Against wolves the wraith should have trouble even with grey hunters because of counter attack. SW Scouts are not really your friend either concerning warriors in reserve... And thunderwolves will slaughter the monoliths with ease not to speak about jaws against warriors
no, I think the problem is, your offensive is not punchy enough against most opponents, and your defensive is once reached most likely to break apart soon or just too slow to bother your opponent. So what I think will happen is either the opponent will drive quickly around the wraiths ignoring the harrassment or tieing them up with unimportant units and go for your bunker quickly or he will totally crush the wraith offensive and then wait for you to get close.
The problem with 9 spyders is the extremely low speed and the lack of power against fast driven vehicles. so they can be easily ignored and 20 warriors vs an army is a hard hiding game The second lists lacks troops at all
If you have a lone tomb spyder, have him summon a scarab swarm. Now, when he is being shot at, you use the higher toughness of two models (spyder) for rolling to wound. Afterwords you can allocate the wound on the scarabs.
This does not work if your wounded 2 times, but if there are 3 you can allocate an extra wound to the scarabs, etc...
Wraiths are not fragile. 3 Wraiths alone in a corner is fragile. 9 Wraiths moving up together with there great speed is not fragile and on top of that they are only 369pts. Hardly the entire army and a nice side force to the main Necron thrust. Add in a Destroyer Lord with Res Orb (only thing that can keep up with them) and you have your WWB role no matter what you attack. People, rightly, worry about CC monster tearing into the Warriors, well the Wraiths stop those CC monsters and at str 6 they can take down some tanks to. Keep them, as my former Gov used to say "they are bleepin' goldin'."
You have your fast moving assault element and now you need your firebase. I'd look at the Immortals next. Two squads of 8-10 form a solid base. They will get their WWB roll vs. many ranged guns and don't need an Orb nearby to survive. The HQ choice with them is Lord with Veil or Deceiver. I'd go with the Veil to increase the mobility of the army. I'm not sure if the Deveiver can stand up to the IG or SW shooting you'd likely see in 2k. The Veil Lord has the option of remaining out of site with a unit and then deep striking across the board and away from the Battlewagons or T-wolves.
Finally the Heavy Destroyers, with the changes to the vehicle damage table, aren't what they used to be. I'd go with 1-2 Monoliths in the heavy slot. These won't be the backbone of the army, but they can serve to give you mobile cover from shooting, a source to bring your warriors/immortals out of combat and another res orb.
I'd vote for a modified version of list #2.
HQ - Destroyer Lord, orb, phylactory
HQ - Lord, Veil
EL - 8 Immortals
EL - 8 Immortals
TR - 10 warriors
TR - 10 warriors
FA - 3 wraiths
FA - 3 wraiths
FA - 3 wraiths
HV - Monolith
HV - Monolith
I like it. It gives you the flexibility, with deep strking mono's and veil, to concentrate on one small section of the board instantly. It gives you tactical flexibility in that all your points aren't tied up in one type of unit and reduces the rock/paper/scissors effect and will make your games multidimensional (Necrons sometimes suffer from having to be played the same way every game which can get boring)
Automatically Appended Next Post: I found a codex. The destroyer lord would have to take Destroyer body, res orb, phylactory and you'd have the points for two squads of 8 Immortals. Phylactory is an acceptable sub for phase shifter and no warscythe since in 5th edition we hit vehicles on the rear now.
Fast Attack-
10 Scarab Swarms with Disruption Fields-160 points
4 Destroyers-200 points
3 Destroyers- 150 points
Heavy Support-
Monolith-235
Monolith-235
Target saturation is the key. I have two juicy Necron Warrior squads as bait for opponents to go after, and six other units that can pack a solid punch.
General set up- Throw the Necron Destroyers in cover and use them as needed as a distraction until.
Set up the Necron Destroyer Lord with the Scarabs. His Lightning Field combo is simply amazing coupled with the speed his unit moves down a field with. Turn 2 assaults with a Warscythe attack that rips anything apart.
The final set up is depending on the opponent. If I am facing ALOT of high Str weaponry, the Monoliths form a mobile wall from which the Necron Warriors fall in behind, and the Deciever backs up the warriors.
In essence, if an opponent is looking to go in for the kill, he will go for the Warriors, BUT he has to go through the murder alley of the Deceiver, Monoliths, and Destroyers to get there.
I have found splitting the Necron Warriors up and placing them at opposite ends of a table (when not expecting flankers or DE levels of speed) forces an opponent to divide up in order to go after them, and dedicate significant resources to eliminating them.
If it is an objectives game, nothing says denial like a Monolith hogging an objective. Place objectives within close proximity of one another and use the Necron Monoliths and Warriors. While true dedicated CC units will mop up the Warriors, if you pressure the opponent correctly, they will be hard pressed to defend their side of the field and take yours.
The only thing I would like to add, is to be wary of the chimera hiding a psyker battle squad. It will make your destroyer lord and squad of wraiths bounce around and be useless. If you attach the lord to a squad of scarabs, he gains fearless and negates this ability, but that psyker battle squad will be your bane if you fight it. Everyone so far has not mentioned deep striking monoliths! I love doing that and scattering the opponents army off a good deep strike. It is also the most effective LOS block of all time. Sometimes that's the only reason I do it. But, in general I like your lists Dash, I would say though 9 wraiths is effective, 6 wraiths 5destroyers is better. Oh and sorry about not being able to piecemeal stuff. I'm really either trying to sell it all or wait for a new codex.
I like the Nightbringer a lot more than the Deceiver.
Etheric Tempest is a very underrated ability.
Here's my pretty damn effective 2000 list:
The Nightbringer
Lord with Veil of Darkness, Res Orb
10 Warriors X2
4 Pariahs
3 Destroyers X2
10 Scarabs with D-Fields
2 Monoliths
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People will say that Pariahs are full of fail, and for the most part I would agree, but combining their soulless ability with the LD affecting goodness of the C'Tan(and the prevalence of Psykers in the game anymore) makes a small squad hiding behind a Monolith seem pretty bitchin'.
And you never know when 8 S5 Attacks that ignore every type of save will come in handy...
I favor a foot lord with veil and rez orb leading 10 immortals, 2 x10 warriors, 2 x5 destroyers, 2 monoliths, and a "filler" unit for fun - wraiths, scarabs, H. destroyers are all likely candidates.
I'll hold the warriors in reserve and deploy the liths as a wall for the immortals with the lord to advance with, and keep the destroyers on the flanks to provide covering fire and slow/pop transports. I advance one lith and particle whip with the other, alternating to advance up the battlefield, using the flux arcs on the moving lith to glance vehicles and pepper squads.
When the warriors come on, they stay behind the liths and get ported up to grab objectives. Use the direction your portal faces to your advantage for this!
Immortals and the Lord counter deep strikers and form a nice firebase. The filler unit does whatever it does best - anti-vehicle with disruptor scarabs usually. I like the wraiths too, but haven't used that many of them before.
An effective tactic versus me recently was using a monolith for los blocking.
it's huge, hard to kill, and can fit half your army behind it while it moves into position.
sharkticon wrote:An effective tactic versus me recently was using a monolith for los blocking.
it's huge, hard to kill, and can fit half your army behind it while it moves into position.
Haha seconded on this! I just posted this exact thing in another thread
Fast Attack-
10 Scarab Swarms with Disruption Fields-160 points
4 Destroyers-200 points
3 Destroyers- 150 points
Heavy Support-
Monolith-235
Monolith-235
That's almost exactly what my army is turning into - how funny is that! About the only difference is that I have 3 'liths (saving $ towards the third), no deciever, a hand full more destroyers (can never have enough destroyers), and 7 scarabs who run with the destroyer lord to form a screen.
I played a match against an ork player who had everyone piled into two trukks and a warwagon. It was my very first match ever and I was annilated. I wasn't playing the army I'm building now and didn't relize how good the orks are at cc and how bad warriors are at cc. He just sort of drove up, unloaded his boyz and slaughtered everyone in cc and I phased out. Won't let that happen again.
oh my gawd the successes i have had with flayed ones!
as an experienced necron player, i would say that all 3 lists that you have posted would pose not a single problem to beat. Why? Phase out.
Phase out
PHASE OUT...
Is there an echo in here? why yes! i think there is. Phase out is the demise of necrons honestly. Necrons would be FINE in 5th edition if it weren't for this damn rule.
at the 2k point level, you should be taking about 30 necron warriors, and another 20 of any other necron unit. (make your necron number AT LEAST 55-60.) But wait a minute? thats a lot of points right?
yea, its going to be. which means 1 thing...Bye bye C'tan.
a LOT of good players will totally ignore any C'tan a necron player brings to a game. Why? kill enough warriors, and the C'tan goes away before it has a chance to do any REAL damage.
a C'tan will NEVER earn its worth in points in ANY game. i have TRIED and TRIED and TRIED and TRIED some more!the most i can do with a C'tan is maybe make up 1/2 of his points. they are just too weak in this version...
and not to add...did you know that the C'tan can be insta killed? GK Force weapons will take the T8, S10/9, 5W character and say....what c'tan? 300 pts down the drain in a single CC...
My successes with necrons: Flayed ones, Wraiths, Warriors and Destroyers.
Immortals...Where to start with immortals? i like them. wonderful unit, lots of shots, WBB, good weapon but once again, they are cut down easily because of their pts cost, and low initiave.
Flayed ones:Fantastic Melee unit. Has the ability to kill even Terminators in CC! One of my Favorite things to do is put a lord with Viel and res-ord with my flayed ones. its usually one of the most threatening combo's i have. why? because flayed 1's are the exact same cost as a necron warrior, but IMO, is much more survivable, has some special rules (Infiltrate, Deep strike, MTC, and The visage that makes enemies hit on 6+ regardless). on top of that, if you have some points to spare, and you are going against a mech type army, then you could easily put D-fields on them for 30 pts per squad. (21 pts per model...Which is sstill relatively cheap in the necron world)
Wraiths make good cheap point investments. one of my favorite things to do is Infiltrate flayed 1's and turbo 3 squads of wraiths at the opponets while leaving my necron warriors to enjoy the slaughter. highly effective as this can make an opponet panic pretty bad. Even out flanking with the flayed ones can be just amazing.
Spyders...ah, i like spyders. infact, i <3 spyders.but there is 1 problem....field lots of spyders? you field lots of kill points. your opponet will almost always beat you if you have a lot of spyders just out of KP's...
Anywho, not sure if this will help you with necron army decisions or not, but gl let meh know!
Gotta disagree on the C'Tan, buddy. The Nightbringer in particular. With proper deployment and play, he can make it impossible for things like Ork Boyz and seer councils to assault your stuff. Throw a couple sacrificial speed bumps in your opponent's way and they won't be able to ignore him, and you can hide him from threatening shooting behind a Monolith. The C'tan ignore terrain with makes them somewhat faster than your average non-winged MC.
The Nightbringers ability is not that great, you roll 2d6 IF most of the models are not 4 str, and ONLY the closest model has to move away all the other models just have to remain in coherency to that model.
Now the Deceiver... there's some nasty combos with Nightmare shrouds, pariahs, and the Golden Boy that can make people cry
General_Chaos wrote:The Nightbringers ability is not that great, you roll 2d6 IF most of the models are not 4 str, and ONLY the closest model has to move away all the other models just have to remain in coherency to that model.
You really need to read that again. It's if any of the models in the unit are less than strength four. And they all have to move 2d6 away from the Nightbringer. It also affects all units within 6 inches. You've got that very, very wrong.
I tabled an entire IG horde 1850 with three liths and the nightbringer. Dawn of war deployment, deep strike all three liths to block him running away and etheric tempested everything else out of the way while ctan moved and ran so he could assualt vehicles. a few destroyers to pop the chimeras, and my warriors never even got shot at. Nightbringer has his purpose, he is not a save all games by any means, but he will always take double or triple his points value in shooting before he goes down, save a few terrible things like sternguard in a drop pod... learned that lesson the hard way Flayed Ones have purpose, I agree, but not so much as I would field them routinely. If they had fleet, then yes, more often, it would be a much cheaper counter assualt unit. But generally my tactics of shoot them as they get close and use my army's strengths of WBB and guass to my advantage, make the enemy play my game rather then them call the shots, makes it more effective. 9 wraiths 30 flayed ones and two destroyer lords sounds fun though, I do admit
I played Necrons back in 4th edition mainly but i did play a wraith wing. If I remember correctly the Monolith can teleport a unit of Necrons from anywhere with in 18" and the Monolith counts as stationary for disembarking purpose's. I used to run one Lith for every squad of wraiths. My strategy was fairly simple, move Lith 6", disembark 2", move 12" assault 6" for a total of 26" range on the first turn. My 1500 point list usually used 2 squads with a destroyer lord in each. Not to many armies think is fun to have 6 wraiths and two lords in there line on the first turn. And once your opponent becomes wise to the idea, and tries to hide in the back of their deployment zone just move slowly behind the lith until you are ready to reach out and strike. I used the 3rd FA slot for a unit of scarabs as a tarpit against assault armies or extra assault against the shooting army, very flexible unit. I have done the all 3 squads and liths at 1850 even tho one runs with out the lord. One of the lords has to have a res orb, if you run into any good close combat unit they will have a way around your WWB roles with out one. Hopes this helps.
themrsleepy wrote:I tabled an entire IG horde 1850 with three liths and the nightbringer. Dawn of war deployment, deep strike all three liths to block him running away and etheric tempested everything else out of the way while ctan moved and ran so he could assualt vehicles. a few destroyers to pop the chimeras, and my warriors never even got shot at. Nightbringer has his purpose, he is not a save all games by any means, but he will always take double or triple his points value in shooting before he goes down, save a few terrible things like sternguard in a drop pod... learned that lesson the hard way Flayed Ones have purpose, I agree, but not so much as I would field them routinely. If they had fleet, then yes, more often, it would be a much cheaper counter assualt unit. But generally my tactics of shoot them as they get close and use my army's strengths of WBB and guass to my advantage, make the enemy play my game rather then them call the shots, makes it more effective. 9 wraiths 30 flayed ones and two destroyer lords sounds fun though, I do admit
So you are saying that you played against an IG player who looked at the big scary things, and proceeded to waste his turns of shooting at things that didn't matter? On top of that you deepstriked all 3 liths on the same turn? How lucky. Or did you deepstrike when you came on for the dawn of war deployment? (if you did, you cheated, but I've seen people try to pull it, so that is why I'm asking, deep striking is only allowed if you go into reserves, which is different than DoW deployement)
At 1850 with 3 liths and a Ctan, you have no army left. Against a competent general with a even average list, you WILL be tabled in short order.
Necrons have a number of issues, mostly that they don't have many choices in what you can take. Then with almost half of what you can take being terrible. Things that I know work: destroyers, heavy destroyers, immortals, necron lords. Things that can work, but take a bit of effort: scarabs, tomb spiders. Things that only work against newer players, or players unfamiliar with crons: monoliths, Ctan, flayed ones. Things that don't work unless you are lucky, or when they do work are underwhelming (things that really suck) Pariahs, wraiths. The thing that you MUST take, which doesn't suck, but isn't good for its points: warriors.
I know I'll have quite a bit of disagreement with people over the 'tiths especially, but I have NEVER lost to a multiple lith list, and only lost once to a single lith list. I HAVE lost multiple games against destroyer wing lists. Why? Destroyer lists are much faster and responsive to enemy movement. They have a much better chance of demobilizing the enemy, and they can play keep away unit they do. They don't have huge point sink units that take away too much and only get 1-2 turns in offensively. (liths and ctan) Destroyer lists can keep the engagement range long, a foot based list or lith based list cannot. How well do even CC units in necrons fare? not very well I've seen.
Hmmm, I'll pm you when I get home of a sucessful and out of the box player I know who has enjoyed his 'Close Combat Necrons' over in 40K Online(linkies to bat reps and such).
It contains Deceiver, max pariahs, Tomb Spyderes en mass, 20 Warriors and some other odd trimmings.
Yes it's really wierd and different, but I've played against it and it's pretty cool. Not sure how competitive it is for you or the environments you play at but hopefully it will be useful.
i would deffinitley add 4-5 destroyer to the list, i run with 2 squads of wriaths and a destroyer lord and one squad of 5 destroyers. it gives you another 15 S6 attacks but you dont have to worry about bad dice rolls and suddenly your being swept away. its a little isurance just in case.
If you are in a position as a Necron player who uses Monoliths to turtle can find that it is easy to do so.
As an army that must secure objectives, you need Destroyer body Necrons in order to achieve some sort of victory in that regard. Monoliths and Warriors walking behind Monoliths won't do that for you.
However, I do like my list because it incorporates Monoliths and Destroyers.
General_Chaos wrote:The Nightbringers ability is not that great, you roll 2d6 IF most of the models are not 4 str, and ONLY the closest model has to move away all the other models just have to remain in coherency to that model.
You really need to read that again. It's if any of the models in the unit are less than strength four. And they all have to move 2d6 away from the Nightbringer. It also affects all units within 6 inches. You've got that very, very wrong.
It say exactly what i just posted, move the nearest model in the unit away first, then move the rest of unit to remain in coherency with it...
General_Chaos wrote:The Nightbringers ability is not that great, you roll 2d6 IF most of the models are not 4 str, and ONLY the closest model has to move away all the other models just have to remain in coherency to that model.
You really need to read that again. It's if any of the models in the unit are less than strength four. And they all have to move 2d6 away from the Nightbringer. It also affects all units within 6 inches. You've got that very, very wrong.
It say exactly what i just posted, move the nearest model in the unit away first, then move the rest of unit to remain in coherency with it...
oh my gawd the successes i have had with flayed ones!
as an experienced necron player, i would say that all 3 lists that you have posted would pose not a single problem to beat. Why? Phase out.
Phase out
PHASE OUT...
Is there an echo in here? why yes! i think there is. Phase out is the demise of necrons honestly. Necrons would be FINE in 5th edition if it weren't for this damn rule.
at the 2k point level, you should be taking about 30 necron warriors, and another 20 of any other necron unit. (make your necron number AT LEAST 55-60.) But wait a minute? thats a lot of points right?
yea, its going to be. which means 1 thing...Bye bye C'tan.
a LOT of good players will totally ignore any C'tan a necron player brings to a game. Why? kill enough warriors, and the C'tan goes away before it has a chance to do any REAL damage.
a C'tan will NEVER earn its worth in points in ANY game. i have TRIED and TRIED and TRIED and TRIED some more!the most i can do with a C'tan is maybe make up 1/2 of his points. they are just too weak in this version...
and not to add...did you know that the C'tan can be insta killed? GK Force weapons will take the T8, S10/9, 5W character and say....what c'tan? 300 pts down the drain in a single CC...
My successes with necrons: Flayed ones, Wraiths, Warriors and Destroyers.
Immortals...Where to start with immortals? i like them. wonderful unit, lots of shots, WBB, good weapon but once again, they are cut down easily because of their pts cost, and low initiave.
Flayed ones:Fantastic Melee unit. Has the ability to kill even Terminators in CC! One of my Favorite things to do is put a lord with Viel and res-ord with my flayed ones. its usually one of the most threatening combo's i have. why? because flayed 1's are the exact same cost as a necron warrior, but IMO, is much more survivable, has some special rules (Infiltrate, Deep strike, MTC, and The visage that makes enemies hit on 6+ regardless). on top of that, if you have some points to spare, and you are going against a mech type army, then you could easily put D-fields on them for 30 pts per squad. (21 pts per model...Which is sstill relatively cheap in the necron world)
Wraiths make good cheap point investments. one of my favorite things to do is Infiltrate flayed 1's and turbo 3 squads of wraiths at the opponets while leaving my necron warriors to enjoy the slaughter. highly effective as this can make an opponet panic pretty bad. Even out flanking with the flayed ones can be just amazing.
Spyders...ah, i like spyders. infact, i <3 spyders.but there is 1 problem....field lots of spyders? you field lots of kill points. your opponet will almost always beat you if you have a lot of spyders just out of KP's...
Anywho, not sure if this will help you with necron army decisions or not, but gl let meh know!
My urge for Necrons has nothing to do with a new Codex.
I play DE and Orks, and kick tail.
One isn't competitive against certain lists, the other is unoptimized, but I still get accused of being too competitive and running WAAC lists....which is ridiculous. So I decided to pick the worst codex in 40k to deal with it. Necrons. If someone gets beaten with my Necrons, they can't complain that my list was too competitive without getting laughed at.
Lol yeah, people STILL complain all day long about the cheesiness of the Necrons, even though they are the bottom of the barrel in terms of competative armies. You'd think they'd have gotten over by now.
Dashofpepper wrote:My urge for Necrons has nothing to do with a new Codex.
I play DE and Orks, and kick tail.
One isn't competitive against certain lists, the other is unoptimized, but I still get accused of being too competitive and running WAAC lists....which is ridiculous. So I decided to pick the worst codex in 40k to deal with it. Necrons. If someone gets beaten with my Necrons, they can't complain that my list was too competitive without getting laughed at.
LOL. When you start tabling people with your necron army, I wonder what weak excuses they will come up with.
From prior experience, a 3 X monolith player does quite well up here. Apparently he used to lose all is games until a friend of mine got rid of his Necron army and gave him his excess monoliths. Now apparently he wins most of his games.
Off Topic: Dash are you going to be painting your necron army in crazy pink colours as well?
Eidolon wrote:Why does your shopping list say 9 tomb spyders and no destroyers?
this.
Dashofpepper wrote:I still get accused of being too competitive and running WAAC lists....which is ridiculous. So I decided to pick the worst codex in 40k to deal with it. Necrons. If someone gets beaten with my Necrons, they can't complain that my list was too competitive without getting laughed at.
Aren't all Necron lists WAAC...? And to say someone losing to Necrons is laughable shows how undeserving your are to play Necrons.
Anyway, 2 main approaches i see/play:
- just stack as many warriors/immortals/destroyers as possible, regardless of the pts simply to avoid PO and hopefully burn down the enemy.
- (assuming high enough pts) use C'Tan and Monoliths (and maybe even minimal Pariahs/scarabs) to your hearts desire. Just be sure to play it intelligently (C'Tan rules, fear bombs, Liths for transporting and/or los and/or cover, etc), which I'm sure you think you can do.
themrsleepy wrote:I tabled an entire IG horde 1850 with three liths and the nightbringer. Dawn of war deployment, deep strike all three liths to block him running away and etheric tempested everything else out of the way while ctan moved and ran so he could assualt vehicles. a few destroyers to pop the chimeras, and my warriors never even got shot at. Nightbringer has his purpose, he is not a save all games by any means, but he will always take double or triple his points value in shooting before he goes down, save a few terrible things like sternguard in a drop pod... learned that lesson the hard way Flayed Ones have purpose, I agree, but not so much as I would field them routinely. If they had fleet, then yes, more often, it would be a much cheaper counter assualt unit. But generally my tactics of shoot them as they get close and use my army's strengths of WBB and guass to my advantage, make the enemy play my game rather then them call the shots, makes it more effective. 9 wraiths 30 flayed ones and two destroyer lords sounds fun though, I do admit
So you are saying that you played against an IG player who looked at the big scary things, and proceeded to waste his turns of shooting at things that didn't matter? On top of that you deepstriked all 3 liths on the same turn? How lucky. Or did you deepstrike when you came on for the dawn of war deployment? (if you did, you cheated, but I've seen people try to pull it, so that is why I'm asking, deep striking is only allowed if you go into reserves, which is different than DoW deployement)
At 1850 with 3 liths and a Ctan, you have no army left. Against a competent general with a even average list, you WILL be tabled in short order.
.
I rolled half my reserves in on the 4+ to start turn two. That half consisted of the three liths. He didn't waste a lot of firepower on the liths, the destroyers were out of LOS, scarabs I hid behind a wall, and the C'tan took the punishment. He was set up horribly, and I rolled absolutely terrific saves for the C'tan. Though to be fair he would have survived with 1W remaining on odds. I blocked any form of effective LOS to the rest of my army by the bottom of turn two, all three liths either scattered to my most perfect wishes, or direct hit where I needed. I cornered him with those three liths and a Ctan running up between two of them. Three close range particle whips on units that had no choice but to move in closer because of how the liths landed, turn three he was ready to give up. Would I run 3 liths in an 1850 as a general rule? No. It was a random fun game against someone who was only used to fighting marines and tyranids. He wasn't the best strategist or best dice roller, and he gave me one of the very few tablings I've seen Necrons do. I really hope they get their codex soon, me fighting with an army that as a general rule is more likely to be tabled than table gets old after a while.
Oh, and dash of pepper, avoid IG leaf blower lists, they kind of tend to rip you wide open when playing necrons. My friend hyperviper has a modified 1500pt leaf blower list and I can't fathom a list to beat it.
Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:And to say someone losing to Necrons is laughable shows how undeserving your are to play Necrons.
Well....all I can say is that I've never lost a game to Necrons. Friendly game, RTT, or GT table. I can't imagine losing a game to Necrons either. If you feel like there is a giant gap in my knowledge, I would encourage you to put together the Necron list that isn't laughable, and set up a meeting with me on Vassal to play a game of 40k so that you can demonstrate my shortfallings.
I could be wrong about them, but you're going to have to demonstrate it.
I got a minor win out of fighting Tau at 'Ard Boyz. I usually do very well against them with my Tau, as they have a hard time stopping the broadsides from eating the monolith's and spamming missle pods+ Everything S5 or higher at C'tan.
However this guy ran a list with none of those, massed warriors and immoratals and keeping every destroyer and heavy destroyer in reserve, so when they could come on, alpha strike with them at weak points. That and his lord kept getting up, PAthfinders killed him in HTH twice. He also had some Tomb Spiders along his battle line keeping the crons in the fight.
His list lacking the big baddies seemed to do very well. compared to the using monolith and c'tan style.
phantommaster wrote:CC Necron armies don't work for me, but 2 Lord's VoDing with 10 Immortals each can shoot most units to death. Expensive but tough and powerful.
Tomb spyders are handy and I like to take 4 or 5 Pariahs to keep any TH/SS Termies in check. Hitting first is nice for a change!!
Monolith is handy to re-roll wbb if you are unlucky, and can soak up a lot of fire in the first few turns.
Not Legit. VOD is 1 per army...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dashofpepper wrote:
Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:And to say someone losing to Necrons is laughable shows how undeserving your are to play Necrons.
Well....all I can say is that I've never lost a game to Necrons. Friendly game, RTT, or GT table. I can't imagine losing a game to Necrons either. If you feel like there is a giant gap in my knowledge, I would encourage you to put together the Necron list that isn't laughable, and set up a meeting with me on Vassal to play a game of 40k so that you can demonstrate my shortfallings.
I could be wrong about them, but you're going to have to demonstrate it.
i will be glad to play your orks or DE on Vassal...i have always been good about putting together a good competetive necron list.
Anyways, something to keep in mind: Necrons can compete against ANY list. the problem being is that it has to be built specifically for that race! (For instance, if i know that i am going against Eldar, i have 3 full squads of wraiths because the wraiths take advantage of ANY eldar in CC.)
The problem with going to tournaments is that you cant tailor your list for every new opponet you have. the Reason that IG and Marines are so competetive is that they can have 1 thing that goes for anti EVERYTHING. IG against marines:Battle cannon IG VS Nids: Battle Cannon IG vs Necrons: Battle cannon IG vs Eldar:Battle cannon IG VS Tau:Battle cannon!
they have weapons that are SO diverse against other armies, it just makes them powerful in tournaments. here is a necron example!
Necrons VS IGestroyers Necrons VS Marines:Monoliths/Spiders/destroyers Necrons VS Eldar: Wraiths Necrons VS Nids....maybe destroyers.
And to the guy that said that Flayed ones were a bad option to take...i SEVERLY disagree. they are by far the only unit that gives necrons a fighting chance as they are the only unit that can: Outflank/infiltrate Fight Termies, and marines. you may not believe me, but i used a full squad of flayed 1's vs a full squad of termies with TH and SS. Termies won..yea yea. but not without severe losses (10 termies vs 10 flayed ones, flayed ones left 4 terminators alive....id say the flayed ones did well for the number of points that they are worth.
Monster Rain wrote:All this anti-Necron talk makes me think I should start bringing them to tournaments.
OK, did anyone else see someone run off with Dash's thunder.
Obviously Dash I'd say extensive play-testing is your best bet. Necrons are a poor army but I expect you could make them work if you had enough experience. Vassal could help with this IMHO.
Right, necrons.
Phase out. I remember a discussion about a reason to actually minimize the number of necrons for the phase out.
If you have a low number it means a low phase out number, the opponent has to kill less to phase you out, but if you can successfully protect a large portion of those warriors then that's more points into stuff to actually kill the opponent.
Hence the flavor for min Necron Warriors (other than them kinda sucking).
Am I close with that idea/comment? Just to turn this back onto the none-bumpy road...
Sanctjud wrote:Right, necrons.
Phase out. I remember a discussion about a reason to actually minimize the number of necrons for the phase out.
If you have a low number it means a low phase out number, the opponent has to kill less to phase you out, but if you can successfully protect a large portion of those warriors then that's more points into stuff to actually kill the opponent.
Exactly. I find it's a good way to use the VoD. Just keep one squad alive, and you can't Phase Out. It's also handy for grabbing objectives.
Sanctjud wrote:Right, necrons.
Phase out. I remember a discussion about a reason to actually minimize the number of necrons for the phase out.
If you have a low number it means a low phase out number, the opponent has to kill less to phase you out, but if you can successfully protect a large portion of those warriors then that's more points into stuff to actually kill the opponent.
Hence the flavor for min Necron Warriors (other than them kinda sucking).
Am I close with that idea/comment? Just to turn this back onto the none-bumpy road...
Right, usually you will take your 2 min size squads. Reserve both of them. This is the main reason to have 1 monolith in the list. The monolith gives you the ability to port those necrons up to midfield objectives.
Here's my typical 2k list. Most people will probably tell you that it sucks. I like the versatility it brings to the table. It has 77 points left over. You can either add 4 more warrirors to the troop squads or add in a third tomb spyder.
Most important advice: learn to relax. If you tense up it just hurts more when you get bent over and worked.
On to serious comments. There are four popular themes for Necrons: Destroyers, Wraiths, Constructs, and Mass. I'll leave HQ and Monolith comments for the end.
Note how 3 of the 4 revolve around FA choices. FA houses some of the best and most unique options in the army. Those 3 themes involve stacking Destroyers, Swarms, or Wraiths and hoping/planning for your opponent to become unable to deal with them. The last theme, Mass, is espoused by people afraid of Phase Out and generally involves a lot of Warriors.
I have no experience with the 30 Swarms 9 Spyders army, so I'll pass beyond mentioning that it exists.
I think Destroyers is the strongest of the 4. 15 Destroyers is a lot of highly mobile firepower, and I believe they are the best unit in the codex. The problem is that it excludes the best (and expendable) melee unit in the codex at the same time. Most people fill out the list with Immortals and/or Heavy Ds. Immortals are better, if shorter ranged and slower, AT than Destroyers against anything but AV 10. Less points per gauss shot. Heavy Ds are jetbike lascannons, with all of the problems and abilities that implies. They also tend to attract fire something fierce since knocking them all down isn't that hard.
Wraithwing seems fragile to me. 9 Wraiths with a D.lord sounds good on paper. 9 S6I6 attacks on the most mobile unit in the game with a 3++? The problem is that you just don't get enough Wraiths to matter. They don't do that much damage to MEQs. Or TMCs. Or IG blob squads. It's a cheap investment, leaving a lot of points for an Immortal firebase or Monoliths, but I don't think it's going to carry the punch needed considering this is shutting you off from the two best units in the codex. After all, if you charge 3 Wraiths against a Grey Hunters (1.66v2 for the GH) or Assault Marine (1.66v1.45 and the marines probably shot you with pistols first) unit you have a disturbing chance of losing while doing remarkably little damage. Remember, scarabs do more damage against most targets in melee while being disposable and having a LOT more wounds. It is cheap, though, at 580 points.
Mass usually means 30-40 Warriors plus a scattering of other units or whatever will fit from one of the other 3 themes in the points remaining. The problem I have here is that if your opponent can catch and kill 20 Warriors, he can probably do the same for 40. Either they are all in the same place so you can guard them and hopefully attrit the enemy with rapid fire shots, or you put a squad or two in strange places in hopes of the enemy not reaching both. If they are in the same place all it takes is a bigger multiassault or more template fire. If they are spread you have units sitting there doing nothing to prevent you from being tabled. In both cases I'd rather have more stuff killing the enemy than cowering in fear. And cowering in the right word. I had my entire 1850 army fleeing from a Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf one game. Any unit he hit died in a round or two until I finally Heavy Gaussed him to death on turn 4.
C'tan and Monolith spam are a personal choice, I think. Some people love them. Some hate them. The Whip is your best ranged tankbuster thanks to AP1 under the hole. A C'tan can be a great goalie for stopping assault units from reaching your infantry, but that's about all they can do. Even the Deciever (my preference) isn't fast enough to do much more. It's H&R makes it far more flexible than the Nightbringer.
Pariahs and Flayed Ones are both pretty terrible. Pariahs could be disposable firepower/counterassault, but it's so expensive. If there is a use for Flayed Ones beyond the Pariah/Flayed One combo, I don't know it. I don't like Tomb Spyders. They encourage you to split up your forces, and that tends to either get you defeated in detail in melee or get the Spyder shot to death and then the unit it was guarding shot to death. Modern rules make it hard to keep the powerfist away from them.
Combined with the Deceiver's abilities and the Nightbringer who will generally win any combat the LD modifier helps. You also have to make a check to assault a C'Tan so that's nice.
It can also really bone Mephiston, which is great.
Right up until they are shot to death as a high cost low wound unit. Enemies aren't just going to blunder into the LD 7 bubble and then go 'OMG, I'm LD 7! How did that happen? George what do I do!?'
If they are a threat, a small unit will be killed. A large unit is an incredible points investment. And who assaults a C'tan? Especially when the Pariahs are right there to be killed?
The Grog wrote:Right up until they are shot to death as a high cost low wound unit. Enemies aren't just going to blunder into the LD 7 bubble and then go 'OMG, I'm LD 7! How did that happen? George what do I do!?'
If they are a threat, a small unit will be killed. A large unit is an incredible points investment. And who assaults a C'tan? Especially when the Pariahs are right there to be killed?
The Pariahs are easily hidden from sight. And lots of things would assault a C'Tan.
The fact that you asked that tells me all that I need to know.
By definition, the Pariahs have to be within 12" of the C'tan at the very least. That means they are in threat range.
Much less if you expect Soulless to kick on the enemy charge. That requires ~6" proximity. Won't be any hiding behind the Monolith there.
Assaulting the Deciever is generally pointless unless you can sucker him into staying with models that might, but probably won't, hurt him. The list of things that actually want to assault the Nightbringer is less than 10 and at least 3 of those are special characters.
The Grog wrote:By definition, the Pariahs have to be within 12" of the C'tan at the very least. That means they are in threat range.
Yes, they are. And if someone assaults the Pariahs that close to the Nightbringer they are getting shot and charged by him next turn.
The Grog wrote:Much less if you expect Soulless to kick on the enemy charge. That requires ~6" proximity. Won't be any hiding behind the Monolith there.
It requires being close to the C'Tan, yes. I think if you actually looked at some models on the table you could see how such a thing could be arranged.
The Grog wrote:Assaulting the Deciever is generally pointless unless you can sucker him into staying with models that might, but probably won't, hurt him. The list of things that actually want to assault the Nightbringer is less than 10 and at least 3 of those are special characters.
Mephiston is one of them, is at a lot of tournaments, and the combo works pretty well on him. Like I said. Seer Councils are less than S10 and don't like Pariahs either.
Im failing to see how a council would get near pariahs, or how eldar would be incapable of shooting them. Unless the nightbringer has eternal warrior, mephiston can likely own him in combat, and any good ba army will bring enough firepower to level a pariah squad.
Far as people saying necrons are weak, they arent. They can just be extremely annoying to play against. My main gripe is the fact that no two necron players play wbb the same way, so every game we both have to learn that rule anew.
Monster Rain wrote:Yes, they are. And if someone assaults the Pariahs that close to the Nightbringer they are getting shot and charged by him next turn.
It requires being close to the C'Tan, yes. I think if you actually looked at some models on the table you could see how such a thing could be arranged.
Mephiston is one of them, is at a lot of tournaments, and the combo works pretty well on him. Like I said. Seer Councils are less than S10 and don't like Pariahs either.
Better eating 130+ points of Pariahs than bouncing off a C'tan. Somebody has to distract the goalie while other units move past, so you may as well get something done in the process.
And I'm sure you could see how many possible configurations where such a thing could NOT be arranged, given terrain and how many assault elements move 12" when your units don't.
There's nothing much Pariahs can do about a jetcouncil. They have every mobility edge and if necessary could probably assault the Pariahs and win despite losses. When it comes to the C'tan, they are perfectly capable of casting doom and whatever else from 20" and then killing the C'tan anyway. I've never seen or heard of a foot council in years.
Necrons have no answer to Mephiston beyond mass Destroyer-chassis firepower. LD 7 won't stop him from killing anything that's not a C'tan, and wings means he'll have the chance to charge the Pariahs and kill them first. He won't need S10 or rerolls for that. IF he doesn't kill them all, and you get a chance to charge him with the C'tan, then you get a pretty good chance of not getting force-weaponed. Depending on exactly when the force weapon test happens and how he splits his attacks. Testing on a 7 sucks, but it's still ~55%. It's not a solution I'd choose to try, and it won't work against Abaddon and the Swarmlord. Or Ghaz, but he's a long shot anyway. Hell, a Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf with EW and a Thunderhammer is a problem.
IMO, arguing about Pariahs is a pretty futile thing as in the vast majority of cases they're simply too expensive to be justified. Particularly when this thread is about Necron tactics as a whole, Pariahs are outclassed and out-priced by so many things in so many armies. Particularly when you could take Immortals instead...
/shrug, in a sort of gimmick, a 10 man squad of Pariahs was pretty intimidating when I faced it. I was thinking about not dealing with it, and going for everything else....but Deceiver was behind them, tomb spyders to the flanks of that...and 20 necron warriors huddling behind all that in cover on a quiet side or still in reserves.
I mean... at least on that occassion there was enough target saturation and in-your-face necrons that was a new experience and caught me off-guard.
Sanctjud wrote:/shrug, in a sort of gimmick, a 10 man squad of Pariahs was pretty intimidating when I faced it.
I was thinking about not dealing with it, and going for everything else....but Deceiver was behind them, tomb spyders to the flanks of that...and 20 necron warriors huddling behind all that in cover on a quiet side or still in reserves.
I mean... at least on that occassion there was enough target saturation and in-your-face necrons that was a new experience and caught me off-guard.
If a necron army actually takes that many "don't come near me" units, they are going to be hurting for fire power even more than usual. Unless your opponent is playing an all assault all the time list, they can usually afford to outshoot such a list. And there lies the problem with necrons. They can bring the all shooty army, and not lose due to being resilient against other ranged armies. Or they can bring a CC army, that can not lose to armies that rely on assaults. The problem is I said not lose, I didn't say win. Necrons draw quite a few games, because they usually lack the punch and mobility to actually win games. And in the matches where they don't get the advantage? yeah, rock vs paper ect. (and against balanced lists, its rather rough too, though its possible to take out all of the relevant threats and force a draw)
Yea, I was playing a bike army, so I resorted to just plinking away at stuff, but his (Gustikks) goal was to bully his way to sit on top of the other objectives and contest them.
Worked pretty well and we did draw. But granted, it was only one game with a very specific army list, not too much can be gleaned from it, but it was refreshing and different.
Sanctjud wrote:/shrug, in a sort of gimmick, a 10 man squad of Pariahs was pretty intimidating when I faced it.
I was thinking about not dealing with it, and going for everything else....but Deceiver was behind them, tomb spyders to the flanks of that...and 20 necron warriors huddling behind all that in cover on a quiet side or still in reserves.
I mean... at least on that occassion there was enough target saturation and in-your-face necrons that was a new experience and caught me off-guard.
If a necron army actually takes that many "don't come near me" units, they are going to be hurting for fire power even more than usual.
A small squad is 144 points. At higher point values you can still have plenty of Destroyers and Monoliths as well as a C'Tan.
Sanctjud wrote:/shrug, in a sort of gimmick, a 10 man squad of Pariahs was pretty intimidating when I faced it.
I was thinking about not dealing with it, and going for everything else....but Deceiver was behind them, tomb spyders to the flanks of that...and 20 necron warriors huddling behind all that in cover on a quiet side or still in reserves.
I mean... at least on that occassion there was enough target saturation and in-your-face necrons that was a new experience and caught me off-guard.
If a necron army actually takes that many "don't come near me" units, they are going to be hurting for fire power even more than usual. Unless your opponent is playing an all assault all the time list, they can usually afford to outshoot such a list. And there lies the problem with necrons. They can bring the all shooty army, and not lose due to being resilient against other ranged armies. Or they can bring a CC army, that can not lose to armies that rely on assaults. The problem is I said not lose, I didn't say win. Necrons draw quite a few games, because they usually lack the punch and mobility to actually win games. And in the matches where they don't get the advantage? yeah, rock vs paper ect. (and against balanced lists, its rather rough too, though its possible to take out all of the relevant threats and force a draw)
Seconded on the draw! I have noticed that I can usually always pull a draw with tricky tactics, even when I am close to losing. But the massacre is nearly never possible for me to acheive against anyone who knows what they are doing against Necrons. It is highly likely to not lose with necrons. Win? possible, Win big, doubtful. I have played Necrons and only Necrons against every army, draws are a way of life, getting my face stomped in has happened, wins too. Tableing someone is an extremely luck day that you dont see often. That is why I am among the believers/hopers of that beautiful albeit possibly nerfing new codex. As far as tactics for always having a draw, when you're down to one or two destroyers hide them, make you're oppenent forget they exist, and turbo boost for the contest. Jetbikes get to go over all terrain and models without penalty! (obviously different story if they start or end in terrain)
I appreciate all the comments and continued discussion.
I'll be getting 70% of my Necron army...TOMORROW!
A few thoughts from me:
1. Originally, my thought was triple monoliths, wraiths out and about doing bad stuff, warriors behind the monoliths screened by a C'Tan. I played against IG; my monoliths eventually got immobilized, and before getting to do anything in the game, my C'Tan took many lascannons to the face, failed all his invul saves and fell over dead. I should be deep-striking those maybe?
2. The portal counts as a deployment edge, not as a vehicle for disembarking right? Meaning that a Monolith could deep-strike, and wraiths could spill out, move forward and assault?
3. Tomb Spyders: I thought these would be awesome because you can take units of three of them, and three tomb spyders each with a T6 scarab escort that can absorb 3 lascannon wounds before a scarab ever gets touched seems quite powerful, then I read last night in the codex that they are treated as individual units. Alright, that's not so awesome. A longfang squad would do bad things to a tomb spyder, even with a scarab base. Speaking of which....scarabs add +1 to their cover save, right? I would think it would be pretty easy for scarabs to be in cover (4+), meaning that 50% of the unit is in cover (4+ for the tomb spyder) meaning that the scarab gets a 3+ cover save. Does that also give a 3+ cover save to the Tomb Spyder?
4. Wraiths: My goal here with a "Wraith-wing" is 9 wraiths with a Destroyer Lord supporting. I tried this in the first game, and forgot to put a Monolith within 18". The Lord had a Rez Orb...I don't know if that means the Wraiths can get back up against double toughness though. I still have a lot to learn. If the wraiths can come out of the monolith portal and act normally, then I should have kept them behind my monoliths as they moved forward, then jetted out when I was in assault range or phased through the portal. Still need to learn that one.
I like the idea of deep-striking monoliths that pour out wraiths and immortals. I don't like the idea of bad reserve rolls that deny me the monoliths to carry this out.
I like the idea of 9 Tomb spyders with scarab screens....I don't like the idea that they come in units of 1. I guess that's 9 killpoints in 3 FoC spots?
I'm not sure what kind of balance I'll end up striking, or what it will look like at the end of everything, or maybe I'll have different variants that I play because I like them all (which would be different, because I tend to pick a theme in an army and stick with it against everything).
2. If the monolith has not moved AND the unit has not moved it may deploy from the portal on the monolith, move and then assault. So you can't move and assault if you deepstrike the monolith, but you can assault.
3. Correct, if the scarab base is in cover it gets a 3+ and the spyder get's a 4+. They can then both go to ground for a 2+ and a 3+ cover. Also remember that the spyder has a 2+ armor save so it should shrug off missiles from long fangs.
4. Res Orb means you can always get back up as long as their is another model of that type within 6". It doesn't matter if it's double toughness or a power weapon.
Also, I don't know if it was right or wrong, but I remember some people arguing over whether you can have warriors in monolith reserves/portals when there's only the required two squads?
Just a thought if it could be a problem with the maximum-monolith tactic?
Good Luck Though Dash, keep us posted eh?
Dashofpepper wrote:Are wraiths fleet? I don't see anything in their entry, but they don't have guns, so it wouldn't make sense if they weren't.
And can you bring multiple units out of a Monolith at once? If they fit? IE, a unit of 3 wraiths + A destroyer lord?
Nope no fleet, technically they are jetbikes. Which does mean you can boost them 24. And since they always ignore all terrain you can boost in and out of terrain with them.
Only one unit can come out of a monolith at a time. However the destroyer lord is an independent character so he can join the wraiths and then the whole unit can come out of the monolith. On a side note, as far as I can tell, Necron Lords can NOT port through a monolith by themselves, they must be attatched to a squad to do so.
The codex states that you cannot place any warriors in 'necron reserve' unless they are above the minimum of first 2 troops required for the mission. The faq states that you are still allowed to place them in regular reserve however. As stated you can assualt out of a monolith, you only get a movement with the teleporting unit if it and the lith has not moved (note that the monolith may move after). Also, the monolith entry states only one unit may use the teleport function per turn as well as if you have a necron warrior squad waiting in reserves and they become available you MUST pull them through rather than teleporting something else or firing the particle whip. Nope wraiths don't have fleet. Wish they did, but they do move like jetbikes, so maybe it's not necessary ( one more oorah for a new codex). If a lord is attached to the squad that is teleporting, he may go with them, it is counted as a single unit (like shooting at it). As for cover saves it was stated correctly, if the scarab is in cover, the tomb spyder gets cover as half the unit is in cover. However, the scarab does not confer stealth on the tomb spyder, and I am vaguely remembering that MC s cannot go to ground. Not for sure on that one, but I am thinking they cannot. Res orbs whole purpose is to allow WBB when it would be negated. That means all double toughness wounds and close combat attacks that ignore armor saves do not negate WBB if there is a res orb close.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh one note about wraiths that I forgot, They always strike at initiative because they never have to take terrain tests. So assualt that unit in cover, they get to strike at initiative rules as written. Even though their codex entry states their grenade rule, they never have to use them because of the way assualting through cover is written in the BRB
themrsleepy wrote: Also, the monolith entry states only one unit may use the teleport function per turn as well as if you have a necron warrior squad waiting in reserves and they become available you MUST pull them through rather than teleporting something else or firing the particle whip.
If you place warriors in reserve and declare they are arriving via the monolith then they must come out of the monolith (and if the monolith is destroyed and you have no other lith's the unit is destroyed). If you put the warriors in normal reserves then they cannot use the monolith and walk on the table edge as normal.
Not sure on if monstrous creates can or can not go to ground don't think I've ever tried it . Will have to look it up.
I didn't know about the 2+ warrior unit rule. Since I never plan on taking more than 2 units of Warriors, I guess that means that my warriors are going to be in regular reserve if I try the Monolith deep-striking tactic.
Sounds like it would end up being Monolith(s) deep-striking...and if I have average rolls, I should have 1-2 wraith units and 1-2 monoliths, possibly with a destroyer lord. I'd have to think about this though; if I don't get the destroyer lord, I have no rez orb for the wraiths. On the flip side, I can probably make sure that they'll be able to get out and assault something since the monolith can deep-strike on top of stuff and force it to just get out of the way.
Tomby Spyders....I thought they had a rez orb? I'm reading their entry and it doesn't say anything about it.
*EDIT* If Pariahs could exit a Monolith, they would be useful!
I think the spyder has 3+ cover too attached to a scara base which is in terrain. Why? Scara has 3+ save, Spyder has none. Majority counts -> 3+ for both.
Tomby Spyders....I thought they had a rez orb? I'm reading their entry and it doesn't say anything about it.
The only things that change or affect the WBB rolls are the rez orb and Tomb Spyder and Monolith.
Rez Orb: Only available on Lords. Allows a unit to roll WBB even if it was killed by 2x toughness weapons or CCWs that ignore armor saves.
Tomb Spyder: Allows a model to roll WBB even if there is not another model of the same type within 6". The Tomb Spyder must be within 12" of the downed model, and there must be another unit of the same type somewhere on the board.
Monolith: If a unit is within 18" of the monolith, and you have not used the power matrix for anything else that turn, you may teleport a unit through the monolith and it may reroll it's failed WBB rolls.
Tomby Spyders....I thought they had a rez orb? I'm reading their entry and it doesn't say anything about it.
No they just extend your wbb range for like model's. So instead of having a warrior with 6 inch's you can have them spread out. Very helpful keeping warrior's alive, and it makes it easier to stand back up if the entire unit is wiped out. It lets you spread out so that you can avoid getting multi-charged.
Yes if pariahs were necrons, we would be in business.... Even though their fluff says 'the newest necron' they don't count as necron... crappa? I believe so too. If they were teleporty, there wouldn't be a discussion on them being crappy, there would be discussion on them being overpowered by pansy people who play stupid armies with stupid undercosted over powered units and spam them. Sorry for the guard rant!
Monster Rain wrote:You can't assault out of a Deep Striking Monolith, just like you can't assault after disembarking from a moving vehicle that isn't open topped.
Correct, because the monolith counts as moving via the Deep strike rules. However, you can assualt after teleporting if it and the unit teleporting have not moved.
Sanctjud wrote:Yea, I was playing a bike army, so I resorted to just plinking away at stuff, but his (Gustikks) goal was to bully his way to sit on top of the other objectives and contest them.
Worked pretty well and we did draw. But granted, it was only one game with a very specific army list, not too much can be gleaned from it, but it was refreshing and different.
Well, aside from the C'tan sitting there you probably could have taken them. Pariahs aren't that good at melee, aside from a few units who depends on ++ saves.
1. Deep striking Monoliths is iffy at times. The footprint is big, making mishaps a problem. Furthermore, there is an irregularity with it's rules, the current deepstrike rules, and enemies within 1". I don't remember what that irregularity is. Additionally the best way to kill a Monolith is in melee combat. It is never hit on worse than a 4+ now and there are a lot more S10 models than there used to be.
2. The Monolith counts as a stationary vehicle for units moving through the portal, EXCEPT for assault. That was FAQ'ed out from under us. You can get out and move, always, but not assault unless the Monolith was stationary. Additionally, ONLY Warriors can come in from reserve through the portal and if present are required to do so if possible.
3. Spyders are T6, 3+. They follow normal wound allocation. I don't think the Spyder would get a 3+ if the Swarm was in cover. The bonus is by model, not by unit. They are both in cover, but only one has the rule.
4. Only one unit can emerge from a portal each turn. If you want the Wraithwing to work, you probably need to keep them together in one clump of 3 units.
All Necron units are classed as infantry. Even the ones that 'move as jetbikes' only 'move as' and are still infantry. And yes, Lords cannot be portaled individually.
The Grog wrote:3. Spyders are T6, 3+. They follow normal wound allocation. I don't think the Spyder would get a 3+ if the Swarm was in cover. The bonus is by model, not by unit. They are both in cover, but only one has the rule.
Incorrect. Half of a unit in cover grants the unit cover saves. The issue that can confuse is that MC(and vehicles) only count as in cover if they are 50% obscured. Since the swarm has no such restriction it can claim to be in cover and fulfill the 50% requirement for the entire unit.
Same as Hive Tyrant (/Swarmlord) with Tyrant Guard.
The problem with the monolith deepstriking rule is in 5th ed you are not destroyed if you land on enemy models, you "mishap". Now if you roll a "terrible accident" result on the mishap table you then procede like the monolith deepstriking rules tell you, moving models out of the way and such. However if you roll a "delayed" or "misplaced" result, you still get screwed. Getting a proper slingshot with wraiths and monos is tricky as a lot of things have to line up for it to work right, however if you can, it gives you up to a whopping 42" range that you can assault.
I think you should watch out Dash for taking too many high-priced units and not enough meat. 3 Monoliths and a C'tan may all be fantastic, nigh unkillable units.... but when you have to actually go out and kill enemy units, you really do not have a lot of firepower. And relying on Wraiths and a Destroyer Lord isn't going to resolve that.
Assuming more Warriors is generally bad, taking two units of Immortals with a Res Lord is a lot of firepower in a very resilient setup. If you port them around with a pair of monoliths, they gain a lot of maneuvrability as well.
What I think here is that with Wraiths+3 Mono+C'tan you have a very assault based, short ranged army.... but compare it to nearly any other army in the game and you realze you have a big slow guy, 10 decent ish guys without power weapons, and 3 invincible vehicles who will not make up their points.
I'd focus on less Monos and C'tan as the basis for your army, and instead try and see how to use them as Force Multipliers instead.
The Grog wrote:
Well, aside from the C'tan sitting there you probably could have taken them. Pariahs aren't that good at melee, aside from a few units who depends on ++ saves.
1. Deep striking Monoliths is iffy at times. The footprint is big, making mishaps a problem. Furthermore, there is an irregularity with it's rules, the current deepstrike rules, and enemies within 1". I don't remember what that irregularity is. Additionally the best way to kill a Monolith is in melee combat. It is never hit on worse than a 4+ now and there are a lot more S10 models than there used to be.
2. The Monolith counts as a stationary vehicle for units moving through the portal, EXCEPT for assault. That was FAQ'ed out from under us. You can get out and move, always, but not assault unless the Monolith was stationary. Additionally, ONLY Warriors can come in from reserve through the portal and if present are required to do so if possible.
3. Spyders are T6, 3+. They follow normal wound allocation. I don't think the Spyder would get a 3+ if the Swarm was in cover. The bonus is by model, not by unit. They are both in cover, but only one has the rule.
4. Only one unit can emerge from a portal each turn. If you want the Wraithwing to work, you probably need to keep them together in one clump of 3 units.
All Necron units are classed as infantry. Even the ones that 'move as jetbikes' only 'move as' and are still infantry. And yes, Lords cannot be portaled individually.
Problems,
1/2. Monolith never sufferes deepstrike mishap unless off table or physically cannot be placed where it lands. No longer in the faq does it state irregularites from rulebook and codex. You are correct on the rest though. Some discussion has been raised because it states "when the warriors become available" so they have to be rolled for is my understanding. Oh and the turn it comes in it is only hit on a 6+ (counts as moving at cruising speed bc of deep strike)
3. spyder would get the cover save for half the squad being in cover if the scarab swarm is in cover, but the stealth rule is only conferred on the swarm not on the spyder.
4. I would be inclined to agree.
Destroyers are not classed as infantry they are true jetbikes. Scarabs are actual swarms, they just get a few outdated thingies because of the old codex. They are pretty much identical to current swarm rules, i.e. small target, and they move as jetbikes.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned, you can join a lord to a tomb spyder, which is contrary to most 40k joining rules. I emailed GW a while back to ask, because the tomb spyder unit does not always consist of a single unit, you may join an independant character to it. So if you join a foot lord to a tomb spyder, build two scarab bases, it s still T6 to shoot at with four models for your wound allocation(and fearless).
Wait, what is this 2. buisness about units coming out of the monolith portal?
The codex states that a unit coming out of the portal always counts as disembarking from a stationary transport. Shouldn't that allow for assaults/movement irregardless of the monolith's movement?
Sorry if this has been discussed before, but I can't find anything to the contrary in the FAQ.
Back on topic, does anyone have any experience with using 2 monoliths and one group of Spyders? Deepstriking the lith's somewhere midfield and then slingshoting things towards the enemy seems like a convenient way to get in range quickly, and the Spyders will provide a second wave of Wbb.
Monolith never sufferes deepstrike mishap unless off table or physically cannot be placed where it lands.
Unfortunately this is incorrect, as I posted above.
Do you have a rules quote for this? The monolith entry says that it does not mishap, but instead that models are moved out of its way....not sure what rules justification you have for this being overridden, given that codex rulings supercede BRB general core rules.
I think the argument goes that the Monolith's rules say destroyed, not mishap, which only happens on 1 of the 3 mishap table results. Not how I'd play it, but some people might.
Irdiumstern wrote:I think the argument goes that the Monolith's rules say destroyed, not mishap, which only happens on 1 of the 3 mishap table results. Not how I'd play it, but some people might.
Exactly. The Deep Strike rules under the mono don't say a thing about mishaps, it simply says it can't be destroyed by landing on enemy units. Now the intention of the rule is clear, and with friendly games usually we go with RAI, however if you are planning on playing tournaments, you have to be prepared to play the strict RAW interpretation. The point of bringing it up is just so you know, building a tournament army around the idea that you can safely deepstrike monos "danger close" to opposing units is asking to get boned by a TO or ref.
themrsleepy wrote:
Problems,
1/2. Monolith never sufferes deepstrike mishap unless off table or physically cannot be placed where it lands. No longer in the faq does it state irregularites from rulebook and codex. You are correct on the rest though. Some discussion has been raised because it states "when the warriors become available" so they have to be rolled for is my understanding. Oh and the turn it comes in it is only hit on a 6+ (counts as moving at cruising speed bc of deep strike)
Destroyers are not classed as infantry they are true jetbikes. Scarabs are actual swarms, they just get a few outdated thingies because of the old codex. They are pretty much identical to current swarm rules, i.e. small target, and they move as jetbikes.
You can still deviate into terrain or offboard, is what I meant. When I said hit on a 4+, that's in contrast to previous editions where skimmers were hit on a 6+ always.
The FAQ clearly states that Wraiths and Swarms are infantry. The Destroyers are also infantry. They do not have the bike toughness bonus, and 'move as' is exactly that. You CAN hit Destroyers with Jaws.
kirsanth wrote:Incorrect. Half of a unit in cover grants the unit cover saves. The issue that can confuse is that MC(and vehicles) only count as in cover if they are 50% obscured. Since the swarm has no such restriction it can claim to be in cover and fulfill the 50% requirement for the entire unit.
I believe the question was: does the Spyder benefit from the Swarm's bonus to cover saves. I don't think so. I may have read the question wrong.
Irdiumstern wrote:Wait, what is this 2. buisness about units coming out of the monolith portal?
The codex states that a unit coming out of the portal always counts as disembarking from a stationary transport. Shouldn't that allow for assaults/movement irregardless of the monolith's movement?
That's odd. I thought I read it earlier today, but the current FAQ says both the Monolith and the portaled unit must have not proved previously in order for the unit to move after the portal happens. I'd swear there was a entry about assaulting out of the portal, but I can't find it now.
Dashofpepper wrote:
Maelstrom808 wrote:
Monolith never sufferes deepstrike mishap unless off table or physically cannot be placed where it lands.
Unfortunately this is incorrect, as I posted above.
Do you have a rules quote for this? The monolith entry says that it does not mishap, but instead that models are moved out of its way....not sure what rules justification you have for this being overridden, given that codex rulings supercede BRB general core rules.
Wording/timing quibble. I believe there is a YMDC thread on this. I want to say the rule prevents destruction (which used to be automatic and the only result) when the current rules also includes other effects and is no longer called a Mishap.
kirsanth wrote:Incorrect. Half of a unit in cover grants the unit cover saves. The issue that can confuse is that MC(and vehicles) only count as in cover if they are 50% obscured. Since the swarm has no such restriction it can claim to be in cover and fulfill the 50% requirement for the entire unit.
I believe the question was: does the Spyder benefit from the Swarm's bonus to cover saves. I don't think so. I may have read the question wrong.
Technically, the Swarm USR grants the Stealth USR. Stealth states that the unit's cover saves are improved by 1, not just the models. I think it's a pretty good argument for both the Spyder and the swarm having +1 to cover, as long as the Swarm is in cover.
The Grog wrote:
Irdiumstern wrote:Wait, what is this 2. buisness about units coming out of the monolith portal?
The codex states that a unit coming out of the portal always counts as disembarking from a stationary transport. Shouldn't that allow for assaults/movement irregardless of the monolith's movement?
That's odd. I thought I read it earlier today, but the current FAQ says both the Monolith and the portaled unit must have not proved previously in order for the unit to move after the portal happens. I'd swear there was a entry about assaulting out of the portal, but I can't find it now.
That's the thing. The way the codex is worded, I don't see any reason for the unit to be unable to move if the monolith already moved. Seeing as how the Faq doesn't list what happens if the monolith already moved, but the unit didn't . . . Well grey area of the Faq, but personally, I would think the unit coming out can move based on the codex wording.
I forgot stealth was a USR now. I'm not sure they have it, as the rule is named Small Target and the rulebook has the Codex trumps book comment in the USR section.
As for the Monolith question, the FAQ (page 2, first entry under the Monolith section) that BOTH units have to have not moved in order for the unit to move. You can still disembark within 2" of the portal, but get no additional movement. The original wording allowed it, but the first FAQ shut that down.
I don't know how this is supposed to work with large units that won't fit though.
The Grog wrote:I forgot stealth was a USR now. I'm not sure they have it, as the rule is named Small Target and the rulebook has the Codex trumps book comment in the USR section.
As for the Monolith question, the FAQ (page 2, first entry under the Monolith section) that BOTH units have to have not moved in order for the unit to move. You can still disembark within 2" of the portal, but get no additional movement. The original wording allowed it, but the first FAQ shut that down.
I don't know how this is supposed to work with large units that won't fit though.
The FAQ states that Scarabs are swarms, which come with stealth and vulnerable to blasts/templates USR's
Hmm, seems you are right. This seems like a blatant rule change to me, but whatever. Dang it Edit: Wait, it says nothing about assault . . . So while the unit cannot move if the monolith did, for whatever reason, but it can assault . . . This might be fun
Well, if the unit is too large to fit, then you can't deploy it. However, the model only has to have its base within 2", not entirely inside 2". As far as I've seen, people are able to set 21 warriors in front of the portal, and like 5 destroyers. There's a couple of pictures of how to floating around Edit: Actually, one of the links posted earlier shows you how to do it.
The Grog wrote:The FAQ clearly states that Wraiths and Swarms are infantry. The Destroyers are also infantry. They do not have the bike toughness bonus, and 'move as' is exactly that. You CAN hit Destroyers with Jaws.
No, destroyers and heavy D's are actual jetbikes and they DO have the jetbike toughness upgrade. They are, as the codex says, warriors (T4) fused to jetbike bodies (though I believe they say skimmer bodies) which is why destroyers are EXACTLY like warriors, stat wise, but T5. It even says "Jetbike" under unit type for them.
The monolith deepstrike lack of mishaps is based on the rules for mishap. What are the conditions that it misahaps? Runs into enemy models, monolith moves them. Goes off board, satisfied under my can't physically be placed, same for impassable terrain. Am I missing any there?
I'd prefer to say Necron enlightener. I mean what is battle than adjusting convention to conform to strategy of what you are facing. Teaching someone the rules don't apply as they think they do is fun!
The Grog wrote:The FAQ clearly states that Wraiths and Swarms are infantry. The Destroyers are also infantry. They do not have the bike toughness bonus, and 'move as' is exactly that. You CAN hit Destroyers with Jaws.
No, destroyers and heavy D's are actual jetbikes and they DO have the jetbike toughness upgrade. They are, as the codex says, warriors (T4) fused to jetbike bodies (though I believe they say skimmer bodies) which is why destroyers are EXACTLY like warriors, stat wise, but T5. It even says "Jetbike" under unit type for them.
Quote:
"Jetbike: Destroyers count as Jetbikes for movement purposes. They may also move and fire their Gauss Cannons."
No T4(5). Looks like infantry to me.
Where is this Unit Type: Jetbike? It's not in my codex.
If they have Stealth and Small Target, then then are +2 to cover saves?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
themrsleepy wrote:The monolith deepstrike lack of mishaps is based on the rules for mishap. What are the conditions that it misahaps? Runs into enemy models, monolith moves them. Goes off board, satisfied under my can't physically be placed, same for impassable terrain. Am I missing any there?
Not quite. The rule says if the Monolith would 'be destroyed' then it moves models. 'Destroyed' one of three results.
The FAQ i checked made points of Wraiths and Scarabs being infantry as well despite the 'move as jetbike' tags. My codex doesn't specify, nor do I know of a list stating what models are classed as what for the Necrons elsewhere. So I extended the same reasoning for Destroyers since their rule also says 'move as' and have an entry about moving and shooting heavy weapons, which bikes shouldn't need.
I suppose it's time for a YMDC thread. I tried looking for the Monoltih & deep strike one I remember reading, but I can't find it.
2x Monoliths
5x Wraiths
10x Destroyers
60x Warriors
10x Immortals
3x Tomb Spyders
20x Scarabs
8x Flayed Ones
1x Destroyer Lord
2x Necron Lords
-------------------------
I still need to acquire 1x Monolith, 4x Wraiths, 6x Tomb Spyders, and to convert a bunch of Warriors into Immortals.
Very nice. I think with that combination you can make every single Necron army known to man... excepting the C'tans. Their total amount of unit choices is shamefully small, innit?
oh dash, just to let you know the Heavy D s come with regular guass cannons. So if you wanted to buy those they can be magnetized for either, I did that on a few, or each half of those cannons with a little work turn into a decent warrior converted immortal. I have pics in my gallery of my shoddy work, but just some ideas to help.
It's actually OT from the original question so you have to filter a bit. INAT ruled in favor of RAI, but of course not every tournament uses INAT so just be armed going in with the knowledge that you could get nailed by it. As to how it should be played, that's an argument for YMDC, and probably one that won't end well.
Deceiver, Necron Destroyer Lord, 3 wraith squads, 3 monoliths, 2 units of 12 warriors.
Blood angel player with two redeemer land raiders and two terminator squads (thunderhammers), two predators and some deep striking assault marines.
He wins the roll and makes me go first. Then steals initiative. =p
Triple monoliths make a line, screening wraiths, destroyer, C'tan behind; warriors in reserve. One of his land raiders immobilizes itself in his rear, the other moves up 12 and smokes. He opens up and bounces off of monoliths. My turn monoliths edge forward and make a 3 sided box, C'tan, destroyer lord and wraiths go inside. Monoliths immobilize his unimmobilized land raider.
His turn, TH terminators get out of immobilized land raider and charge leading monolith (lascannons bounce off everywhere). He gets two glances and a penetrate, causing two weapon destroyed results and shaken. Lol.
My turn, C'tan wanders through my monolith and eats his terminators, monoliths template land raider and wreck it, Wraiths and Destroyer lord boost 24" across field towards predators.....no invul save on his terminators, he declares Necrons broken and concedes.
Dashofpepper wrote:I just had my first game with Necrons.
16 points under a 2k list:
Deceiver, Necron Destroyer Lord, 3 wraith squads, 3 monoliths, 2 units of 12 warriors.
Blood angel player with two redeemer land raiders and two terminator squads (thunderhammers), two predators and some deep striking assault marines.
He wins the roll and makes me go first. Then steals initiative. =p
Triple monoliths make a line, screening wraiths, destroyer, C'tan behind; warriors in reserve. One of his land raiders immobilizes itself in his rear, the other moves up 12 and smokes. He opens up and bounces off of monoliths. My turn monoliths edge forward and make a 3 sided box, C'tan, destroyer lord and wraiths go inside. Monoliths immobilize his unimmobilized land raider.
His turn, TH terminators get out of immobilized land raider and charge leading monolith (lascannons bounce off everywhere). He gets two glances and a penetrate, causing two weapon destroyed results and shaken. Lol.
My turn, C'tan wanders through my monolith and eats his terminators, monoliths template land raider and wreck it, Wraiths and Destroyer lord boost 24" across field towards predators.....no invul save on his terminators, he declares Necrons broken and concedes.
LOL.
Hah! Funny that the blood angels player had the gall to call your 3rd edition codex broken.
Dashofpepper wrote:I just had my first game with Necrons.
16 points under a 2k list:
Deceiver, Necron Destroyer Lord, 3 wraith squads, 3 monoliths, 2 units of 12 warriors.
Blood angel player with two redeemer land raiders and two terminator squads (thunderhammers), two predators and some deep striking assault marines.
He wins the roll and makes me go first. Then steals initiative. =p
Triple monoliths make a line, screening wraiths, destroyer, C'tan behind; warriors in reserve. One of his land raiders immobilizes itself in his rear, the other moves up 12 and smokes. He opens up and bounces off of monoliths. My turn monoliths edge forward and make a 3 sided box, C'tan, destroyer lord and wraiths go inside. Monoliths immobilize his unimmobilized land raider.
His turn, TH terminators get out of immobilized land raider and charge leading monolith (lascannons bounce off everywhere). He gets two glances and a penetrate, causing two weapon destroyed results and shaken. Lol.
My turn, C'tan wanders through my monolith and eats his terminators, monoliths template land raider and wreck it, Wraiths and Destroyer lord boost 24" across field towards predators.....no invul save on his terminators, he declares Necrons broken and concedes.
LOL.
Sounds like you played an lol terribad player. I beat a grey knight player with my sanguard ba too. Far as declaring necrons broken, yeah it happens. And sometimes for good reason. They can do some really obnoxious stuff with wbb and what not. Busting your balls to kill half a squad only to get it to stand back up can just get annoying.
Dashofpepper wrote:I just had my first game with Necrons.
16 points under a 2k list:
Deceiver, Necron Destroyer Lord, 3 wraith squads, 3 monoliths, 2 units of 12 warriors.
Blood angel player with two redeemer land raiders and two terminator squads (thunderhammers), two predators and some deep striking assault marines.
He wins the roll and makes me go first. Then steals initiative. =p
Triple monoliths make a line, screening wraiths, destroyer, C'tan behind; warriors in reserve. One of his land raiders immobilizes itself in his rear, the other moves up 12 and smokes. He opens up and bounces off of monoliths. My turn monoliths edge forward and make a 3 sided box, C'tan, destroyer lord and wraiths go inside. Monoliths immobilize his unimmobilized land raider.
His turn, TH terminators get out of immobilized land raider and charge leading monolith (lascannons bounce off everywhere). He gets two glances and a penetrate, causing two weapon destroyed results and shaken. Lol.
My turn, C'tan wanders through my monolith and eats his terminators, monoliths template land raider and wreck it, Wraiths and Destroyer lord boost 24" across field towards predators.....no invul save on his terminators, he declares Necrons broken and concedes.
LOL.
What do you mean by "wanders through my monolith"? You didn't teleport the Deceiver, did you?
Eidolon wrote:Sounds like you played an lol terribad player.
Seriously...
Congrats on winning versus Blood Angels with Necrons and all, but that dude seriously had no clue whatsoever.
Your longest range shooting was 24 inches. What was the mission?
YES he had an HQ choice; I skimmed the details. The C'tan didn't teleport through the monolith, he walked through the corner of it.
I just played Gwar's Space Wolves, and Gwar's not a shabby player. =p I did beat up on him too.
Several lessons learned:
1. C'tan probably isn't worth using. Life is full of mechanized lists, and the Deceiver is easy to avoid.
2. The Necron Force Org sucks. Taking out the Deceiver frees up 300 points. I can add an HQ, troops and elites (My Fast Attack and Heavies are full). That means a necron Lord and....crap. 200 points later, I can't really afford a unit of immortals. Maybe I should run dual necron lords and pair one of each with a unit of wraiths.
Dashofpepper wrote:YES he had an HQ choice; I skimmed the details. The C'tan didn't teleport through the monolith, he walked through the corner of it.
I just played Gwar's Space Wolves, and Gwar's not a shabby player. =p I did beat up on him too.
Several lessons learned:
1. C'tan probably isn't worth using. Life is full of mechanized lists, and the Deceiver is easy to avoid.
2. The Necron Force Org sucks. Taking out the Deceiver frees up 300 points. I can add an HQ, troops and elites (My Fast Attack and Heavies are full). That means a necron Lord and....crap. 200 points later, I can't really afford a unit of immortals. Maybe I should run dual necron lords and pair one of each with a unit of wraiths.
Vassal isn't really a good test.
1. If you're spamming Destroyers, like you probably should be, they won't be mechanized for long.
2. If you're going to run two HQs at high point levels you might as well have a C'Tan. Otherwise your opponents will have no compunction about charging straight at you.
I'm running no destroyers; I'm running 9x wraiths.
I hadn't thought about the C'tan discouraging people from closing with me....you might have something there.
*edit* I have extra points....might as well put them on a destroyer lord.
He's got destroyer body and rez orb....(and a separate warscythe) - what do you guys think the most useful wargear would be to fit in there? He's running with wraiths.
*edit again* I'm leaning towards Phase shifter for a 4++, or Phylactory for my WBB goodness.
Dashofpepper wrote:I hadn't thought about the C'tan discouraging people from closing with me....you might have something there.
I've been playing Necrons for a long time! It really does help. And when the gak does hit the fan it's nice to have a giant, save ignoring monster with a bunch of special powers.
Dashofpepper wrote:He's got destroyer body and rez orb....(and a separate warscythe) - what do you guys think the most useful wargear would be to fit in there? He's running with wraiths.
I like the Warscythe. Ignoring invulnerable saves and 2d6 armor penetration is definitely worth 10 points. Oh, and the Phase Shifter. The Res Orb could make your Wraiths live a bit longer as well.
I always run my destroyer lords with warscythe, phase shifter, and res orb. Phylactery is nice on the 5s and 6s, but you are only going to make use of it if you go down, and even then only 1/3 of the time. Phase shifter comes into play far more often in my experiance. EDIT: VoD on a walking lord is nice for zapping troops onto an objective once you clear the way. I don't recomend taking them on destroyer lords though. One way or another, you'll be paying points for a method of transportation that you will not be making the most of, and points are a very precious commodity for us.
Trying to use C'tan as an offensive unit in the age of mech is almost an exercise in futility. Put them down in a place that you want to control and use them as counter charge or area denial. The same pretty much goes for anything in the codex that is stuck with 6" movement and no other options such as teleporting, deepstrike, infiltrate, outflank, etc.
Dashofpepper wrote:
1. C'tan probably isn't worth using. Life is full of mechanized lists, and the Deceiver is easy to avoid.
2. The Necron Force Org sucks. Taking out the Deceiver frees up 300 points. I can add an HQ, troops and elites (My Fast Attack and Heavies are full). That means a necron Lord and....crap. 200 points later, I can't really afford a unit of immortals. Maybe I should run dual necron lords and pair one of each with a unit of wraiths.
The point of a C'tan is to play goalie for your infantry. Closing to melee gets a lot harder with one hiding out of LOS somewhere waiting to savage incoming assault units.
I never liked a phylactery. It only has a 1 in 3 chance of doing anything at all. I prefer a phase shifter.
A lot of people are still highly unfamiliar with Necrons. Your regular opponents will learn soon enough.
Maelstrom808 wrote:I always run my destroyer lords with warscythe, phase shifter, and res orb. Phylactery is nice on the 5s and 6s, but you are only going to make use of it if you go down, and even then only 1/3 of the time. Phase shifter comes into play far more often in my experiance. EDIT: VoD on a walking lord is nice for zapping troops onto an objective once you clear the way. I don't recomend taking them on destroyer lords though.
Oh, I wasn't suggesting it for the Destroyer Lord. Forgive me if it seemed so.
I'd just always recommend a foot lord with the Veil. It's won me so many games, and saved me from phasing out even more.
The Monolith wall technique works great for Necrons in almost all of the games you will play. If played correctly, you can go very far with a build based around that many monoliths, a C'tan, and a destroyer lord. However, there will be that rare game, where killing AV 14 is no problem for your opponent and things become a bit more complicated.
Watch out for thunderwolves with power fists and manticores. Other than that, you will have all the tools you need to beat most opponents. But with only 2 troops, wich cannot really be avoided now, getting a massacre victory will be very very difficult.
My personal 2 cents on the nightbringer in a Necron all comers list in a tournament setting.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
If you take the nightbringer you're going to run into sternguard+Null zone, a tyranid list with a bazillion poisoned attacks, or once 5th ed Dark eldar come out with poisoned ranged attacks guess who's coming to dinner? The end result is he's a waste of points and the loss of a res orb.
If you leave the nightbringer at home you're either going to end up getting paired off with a FNP army such as chaos PM, or BA, or run into a horde of TH/SS termies. As soon as you leave that bad boy home you'll end up needing him against armies where he will be well worth his points.
That type of situational usefulness on the necron's most powerful and sometimes needed unit is one of the many reasons I don't play them. It seems almost every game necrons are in they either have the advantage, or they are screwed.
I played another game tonight, this time with Tomb Spyder wing.
9x Tomb Spyders, 10x Immortals with a Lord / rez orb / veil...
30x Scarabs, 20 warriors, destroyer lord with warscythe, rez orb, lightning field.
I played against Black Templar. I ultimately won (and tabled him) but a few issues arose.
1. Is the Destroyer Lord / Lightning Field trick worth it? My lord and scarabs boosted across the field and then got assaulted by terminators, who did 16 wounds to my scarabs. The lightning field caused 8 wounds back and dropped two terminators (one lightning claw, one Thunderhammer), but I ended up ultimately losing by 18 or so, and the lord took 4 fearless saves (and the scarabs took the rest) dropping 3 wounds onto my Lord. He ended up dying (then getting back up) then dying (and getting back up), and dying (and getting back up a third time).
2. Tomb Spyders: At the beginning of the game, all nine spyders pooped out a scarab. Tomb spyders hover, but move like infantry, while scarabs ignore terrain. So if I have a scarab in front of a tomb spyder, and I assault a unit in cover, such that only the scarab can make it into base...
3. Destroyer Lord is STR5, I4, 3 attacks base. I'm not sure I should be throwing him into assaults. 4+ to hit, 3+ to wound - he whiffed a lot for me.
Dashofpepper wrote:I played another game tonight, this time with Tomb Spyder wing.
9x Tomb Spyders, 10x Immortals with a Lord / rez orb / veil...
30x Scarabs, 20 warriors, destroyer lord with warscythe, rez orb, lightning field.
I played against Black Templar. I ultimately won (and tabled him) but a few issues arose.
1. Is the Destroyer Lord / Lightning Field trick worth it? My lord and scarabs boosted across the field and then got assaulted by terminators, who did 16 wounds to my scarabs. The lightning field caused 8 wounds back and dropped two terminators (one lightning claw, one Thunderhammer), but I ended up ultimately losing by 18 or so, and the lord took 4 fearless saves (and the scarabs took the rest) dropping 3 wounds onto my Lord. He ended up dying (then getting back up) then dying (and getting back up), and dying (and getting back up a third time).
2. Tomb Spyders: At the beginning of the game, all nine spyders pooped out a scarab. Tomb spyders hover, but move like infantry, while scarabs ignore terrain. So if I have a scarab in front of a tomb spyder, and I assault a unit in cover, such that only the scarab can make it into base...
3. Destroyer Lord is STR5, I4, 3 attacks base. I'm not sure I should be throwing him into assaults. 4+ to hit, 3+ to wound - he whiffed a lot for me.
1) I've never been able to make the lightning field/destroyer lord combo pile in enough extra wounds to work for me. I think it's better used on a foot support lord...but only if you are using a second foot lord as the first should be packing a VoD and Res Orb.
2) Hmmm, that's one for YMDC. First reaction is no, but I'd have to read over it a little better.
3) The Codex isn't exactly overflowing with great combat units. Generally you have to pick on units that are weak to mid-level in combat ability. If you try and tackle strong melee units at thier own game, you'll get eaten alive...er whatever the case may be for crons. Pretty much the Crons are mediocre shooters and mediocre assaulters so you need to be pretty careful in your choices of what and where you apply them. Mainly I use the D-Lord against vehicles and shooty units that need to die early in the game.
Dashofpepper wrote:I played another game tonight, this time with Tomb Spyder wing.
9x Tomb Spyders, 10x Immortals with a Lord / rez orb / veil...
30x Scarabs, 20 warriors, destroyer lord with warscythe, rez orb, lightning field.
I played against Black Templar. I ultimately won (and tabled him) but a few issues arose.
1. Is the Destroyer Lord / Lightning Field trick worth it? My lord and scarabs boosted across the field and then got assaulted by terminators, who did 16 wounds to my scarabs. The lightning field caused 8 wounds back and dropped two terminators (one lightning claw, one Thunderhammer), but I ended up ultimately losing by 18 or so, and the lord took 4 fearless saves (and the scarabs took the rest) dropping 3 wounds onto my Lord. He ended up dying (then getting back up) then dying (and getting back up), and dying (and getting back up a third time).
2. Tomb Spyders: At the beginning of the game, all nine spyders pooped out a scarab. Tomb spyders hover, but move like infantry, while scarabs ignore terrain. So if I have a scarab in front of a tomb spyder, and I assault a unit in cover, such that only the scarab can make it into base...
3. Destroyer Lord is STR5, I4, 3 attacks base. I'm not sure I should be throwing him into assaults. 4+ to hit, 3+ to wound - he whiffed a lot for me.
On point 1, Necrons outside of the Wraiths and C'Tan are not CC beasts. If you face a true dedicated CC unit (such as a souped up Terminator squad), watch the Necrons go OM NOM NOM NOM'ed. For Necron Lords on Destroyer Bodies, I take the 10 Scarab Swarm units with the Necron Lord and boost towards his shooty units as a harassment tactic. With a Warscythe, make sure the Lord gets locked in combat with things that cannot outright kill your Scarabs (Str 6 or above) or have higher I than your lord, as the Warscythe ignores ALL saves, and thus is the main punch of your Destroyer Lord retinue. Lightning Field is added gravy against units like Ork boyz who add in a few extra shots and because of their low saves, can be felled by quite a few Lightning Field hits.
As for the unit as a whole, I expect all of them to die a horrible, horrible death. One game, I boosted turn 1, ate bolter fire from a combat squad Marine unit, destroyed them in combat on turn two (between 30 some-odd hits from the Scarabs, a few Warscythe smacks, and finally a few Lightning Field hits), boosted towards two other CS Marine units, got flamered inbetween by a passing Land Speeder, engaged in combat turn 4, and finally was felled when he brought along two more CS Marine units in Rhinos to do so mop-up work. But in between, the unit made back it points on 3 Marine squads and tied up another two from engaging my Necron Warriors, who congalined to take up 2 objectives.
2. Spyders and spyderlings are one unit, so everything would hit last in combat as both would get engaged into CC and if assaulting through cover, while Scarabs ignore difficult terrain tests, I believe that they would still swing last in combat. However, they are I2 anyway, so there is a good chance they will still probably swing last anyway. And the Spyder is I2 as well.
3. If you give the Destroyer Lord a warscythe, it changes EVERYTHING. He plows through units with amazing speed...PROVIDED that the Necron Lord in question does not get CCed by CC dedicated units.
The one big thing that Necrons lack is a true CC specialist unit. Wraiths are more or less a hit and run kind of unit, being able to get the jump on small units that cannot take a brutal half dozen wounds or so and then swing back with decent hits. Flayed ones are in the same boat. They don't have the stamina to go toe to toe with say Khorne Berserkers.
The Grog wrote:
Wraithwing seems fragile to me. 9 Wraiths with a D.lord sounds good on paper. 9 S6I6 attacks on the most mobile unit in the game with a 3++?
i know im a little late in the game here but, the wraithwing with 9 wraitsis acually 27 S6 I6 attacks, 36 S6 I6 attacks on the charge which is what you should be doing with wraiths and a dest lord. that is absolutly devistating!
I wouldn't call that devastating, considering it's eating all 3 FA slots and has no power weapons or rending.
I generally find the Lightning Field worthless, since it only goes on unsaved wounds. Even if you take 10 unsaved wounds, you are only getting 3 wounds reflected onto T4 targets (S3).
Lords are not good close combat units. You get 1 wound per round on average, a little more on WS3 or T3 targets. Yes, that one is with a warscythe, but just one. You got really lucky on the WBB roll there.
Dashofpepper wrote:I played another game tonight, this time with Tomb Spyder wing.
9x Tomb Spyders, 10x Immortals with a Lord / rez orb / veil...
30x Scarabs, 20 warriors, destroyer lord with warscythe, rez orb, lightning field.
I played against Black Templar. I ultimately won (and tabled him) but a few issues arose.
1. Is the Destroyer Lord / Lightning Field trick worth it? My lord and scarabs boosted across the field and then got assaulted by terminators, who did 16 wounds to my scarabs. The lightning field caused 8 wounds back and dropped two terminators (one lightning claw, one Thunderhammer), but I ended up ultimately losing by 18 or so, and the lord took 4 fearless saves (and the scarabs took the rest) dropping 3 wounds onto my Lord. He ended up dying (then getting back up) then dying (and getting back up), and dying (and getting back up a third time).
I've never had it be worth it. I'd much rather have just about anything besides lightning field these days. Phase shifter for one, and nightmare gaze for another.
Dashofpepper wrote:
2. Tomb Spyders: At the beginning of the game, all nine spyders pooped out a scarab. Tomb spyders hover, but move like infantry, while scarabs ignore terrain. So if I have a scarab in front of a tomb spyder, and I assault a unit in cover, such that only the scarab can make it into base...
The scarab ignores terrain, the tomb spyder is infantry but he's also a monstrous creature. You always take the "slowest" movement characteristic for a unit. Which means you use the monstrous creature rules, so he get's 3d6 pick the two highest. However the scarab still has to make a dangerous terrain test.
Dashofpepper wrote:
3. Destroyer Lord is STR5, I4, 3 attacks base. I'm not sure I should be throwing him into assaults. 4+ to hit, 3+ to wound - he whiffed a lot for me.
The destroyer lord is about "quality" wounds not a mass of wounds. Being on a jetbike gives him the mobility that he needs to apply pressure. They are good for taking out dreadnaughts, other people's ic's, and other vehicles (as long as he has a warscythe, and the phase shifter). Him with a squad of wraiths will finish off th+ss terminators. Him + scarab's can take down farseer council's (you need to limit their attacks back). Him paired with immortal's is good for wading through marine squads (tougher for them to wound back. It seems fairly boring but lord + destroyer body + phase shifter + warscyhe + resurrection orb just seems to make him good for all targets.
I wouldn't count on a Destroyer Lord killing ICs. Admittedly, most combat ICs will have trouble getting wounds on him unless they are at least S5 or have a powerfist. But you won't be doing wounds back very fast either, and it is likely that some other enemy unit will come help.
If you take a warscythe you should dedicate that lord to taking out vehicles. Otherwise, the Assault 3 Str 5 AP 3 weapon (one of only three weapons with AP that low) is a giant boon to give up considering the staff of light is already a power weapon (the only one in the army, not counting c'tan). Basically, you're not gaining any advantage over the majority of regular troops that don't have an invul save and you're giving up 3 potential killing shots on MEQ.
Personally to me, it's far more advantageous to keep the staff of light and just use weight of fire to bog down vehicles instead of upgrading to the warscythe.
Kevin949 wrote:If you take a warscythe you should dedicate that lord to taking out vehicles. Otherwise, the Assault 3 Str 5 AP 3 weapon (one of only three weapons with AP that low) is a giant boon to give up considering the staff of light is already a power weapon (the only one in the army, not counting c'tan). Basically, you're not gaining any advantage over the majority of regular troops that don't have an invul save and you're giving up 3 potential killing shots on MEQ.
Personally to me, it's far more advantageous to keep the staff of light and just use weight of fire to bog down vehicles instead of upgrading to the warscythe.
I would only take the Warscythe for a Destroyer Lord, as he is most likely not going to shoot and more likely to engage in CC. Foot slogging Lords will probably never really use the Warscythe unless they get lucky.
Kevin949 wrote:If you take a warscythe you should dedicate that lord to taking out vehicles. Otherwise, the Assault 3 Str 5 AP 3 weapon (one of only three weapons with AP that low) is a giant boon to give up considering the staff of light is already a power weapon (the only one in the army, not counting c'tan). Basically, you're not gaining any advantage over the majority of regular troops that don't have an invul save and you're giving up 3 potential killing shots on MEQ.
Personally to me, it's far more advantageous to keep the staff of light and just use weight of fire to bog down vehicles instead of upgrading to the warscythe.
I would only take the Warscythe for a Destroyer Lord, as he is most likely not going to shoot and more likely to engage in CC. Foot slogging Lords will probably never really use the Warscythe unless they get lucky.
Yes, but footslogging Lords are only likely to get one or two rounds of fire with it either before melee starts. Same reason I avoid putting PPCs in my Spyders.
I'd still rather have those 3 shots of AP3 plus the 3 (or 4) melee attacks instead of only 3 (or 4) melee attacks. BS 4 hits more often than WS 4 against MEQ and the staff wounds the same in or out of CC since the str is the same as the models. I've just really never found it terribly useful to take the warscythe for infantry fighting as anything with an invul save will completely destroy the necron lord and anything w/o an invul save will still get no armor save in CC against the standard staff of light.
Warscythe is just only good for vehicle hunting and it's only OK at that as even with 2d6 for pen you still need 6-10 on the roll for a pen result (depending on what you're hunting). Yes, better than only 1d6 for sure. And yes, perfect for a destroyer lord.
I have PPC's on both my tomb spyders (only have two currently) and it's served me well.
Ya, I don't care much for spyders either, honestly. I rarely take them and when I do they just die horrible deaths to the mass amounts of str6+ weapons or get assaulted. Too much of a liability for not much return.
Though it's worth it to note that I'm mostly fighting MEQ (BT in particular).
What are you playing against Sanctjud? Just a heads up, ork mob and leaf blower will annialate that list so I'm hoping it s not either. For the 300 points of tomb spyders id max out a squad of warriors take a vod lord with resorb. Imho...
I think he did a good job although you rolled badly for him.
Concerning spyders:
I think we did this right, if you have scarabs in front and mange to move so that only scarab gets through terrain you strike at initiative, becuase you didnt test for difficult terrain.
I would be curious how your army performs in the future. I was always interested in tomb spyder spamming. In our mission you had mission and matchup in your favour, it was next to impossible to punch through the spyders and you made good use of the terrain.
But I made a big big mistake when I charged the scarabs in order to zip off the lord and I kept the raiders behind... . I should have stuck to my guard lessons and should have kept moving 12" leaving the whole monstrous junk scratching on fast moving adamantium and kill the decisive stuff instead (necrons...). Never go for early kills, you pay for it later...
I wasnt really concentrated that game But nevertheless, I think spyders>wraiths.
I wish I could do something with the 54 points in extra warriors, but I don't see any way to spend it.
Couple of things I've learned in my games so far.
1. The Deceiver is a tricky model to use. I didn't know that he wasn't immune to instant death; I'm going to have to start looking for force weapons. I assaulted a Swarm Lord thinking that I was going to toast them all, and he reduced me to I1 and then instant deathed me. Poof. Fortunately, he didn't really have any anti-monolith weaponry. =p
2. Also, his 4+ invulnerable save isn't that hot. He took 3 vendettas to the face in one game and fell over dead, and last night took 7 wounds from a unit of 15 Lootas and failed 5 of them, falling over dead.
3. With practice, I see him being incredibly useful. Hiding behind my monoliths as they advance, and then moving up to assault / counterassault. I just discovered how useful his ability to leave combat is - I can assault a unit to protect me from shooting....then on the enemy turn consolidate 2d6 towards something else, followed by a 6" move, 6" assault - literally letting the C'Tan bounce across the board in combats if the opportunity presents. I don't see Grand Illlusion ever doing much; I can stick him as a bait unit in a corner, or put something in a corner as bait and then redeploy it, but not seeing much utility in that ability. If anyone has some awesome thoughts on Grand Illusion I've missed, key me in on them.
4. Monoliths are interesting. Coming from Orks, where I reroll all dangerous terrain, I'm going to have to be more careful. I've immobilized a monolith on my own in a couple of games now. In a game last night, I landed in a tiny crater and immobilized myself. That's a weakness I don't like. I like the particle whip, but my army is close combat oriented...and with so few models, I keep finding myself having to teleport models through the monolith for a second WBB roll - not to mention that pulling myself out of combat to get a charge bonus again is very nice. I'm going to have to contemplate that - my only ranged anti-tanks are those three particle whips, and while conventional wisdom says to ignore Monoliths and go for a phase out, in reality those monoliths keep from FROM phasing out....and they're precious to me.
5. Wraiths continue to be my MVPs.
In a 2,000 point game last night against 2,500 points of Orks (Kan-wall backed by 120 boyz and 45 Lootas - he didn't know he was over points until today when he was looking at his list), I had 6 wraiths and a destroyer Lord attack a unit of 30 boyz. I killed a bunch, and on the return swings, he killed all but one wraith (phew), while the destroyer lord took a wound. That single wraith let me take WBB rolls on the dead unit and his two compadres. I think 3/5 got back up, and I pulled the whole thing through a Monolith to try for the other two and got one of them. 1 dead wraith, 50% dead boyz squad.
My destroyer Lord and 5 wraiths then went and assaulted another unit of 30 boyz and multi-assaulted a KFF and 15 Lootas. Again, that single wraith survives (and the destroyer lord), to win combat. I killed 6 Lootas, leaving the KFF and 9 Lootas at Ld10, losing by 9, and running off the board, while 8 more boyz die. That single wraith lets me WBB, and 4/5 get up. I teleport through a monolith and the 5th gets back up.
This time, the destroyer lord breaks off from the wraiths and assaulted one the first boyz unit while the 5 wraiths assaulted the other boyz unit (now one wraith squad instead of two) and wiped them both.
I killed 60 boyz, a KFF Big Mek and 15 Lootas while losing 1 wraith. All because of a single wraith's unwillingness to fall over dead. Wraiths are awesome. The other wraith squad was tied up in combat with a unit of kans, keeping them away from my monolith while my Deceiver ripped up another kan unit and then bounced into a boy squad and sat there munching on them.
yeah, that's pretty much how you have to use the Deciever, and why he's so much better than the Nightbringer.
Grand Illusion is best for pushback deployments and creating/unmaking a refused flank deployment.
You seem to be doing unusually well with WBB on those Wraiths. One of the reasons I don't like them is their vulnerability to small arms fire. A volley of rapid fire boltguns (~18 shots) nets 1 (real) casualty and a break check, and until you have amalgamated them into one unit they often suck up portal time.
The Grog wrote:yeah, that's pretty much how you have to use the Deciever, and why he's so much better than the Nightbringer.
Grand Illusion is best for pushback deployments and creating/unmaking a refused flank deployment.
You seem to be doing unusually well with WBB on those Wraiths. One of the reasons I don't like them is their vulnerability to small arms fire. A volley of rapid fire boltguns (~18 shots) nets 1 (real) casualty and a break check, and until you have amalgamated them into one unit they often suck up portal time.
The saving grace to any unit with a vulnerability is that an experienced player can remove such problems by using terrain and cover to keep the Wraiths from getting pin cushioned by Rapid Fire volleys.
Dashofpepper wrote: I don't see Grand Illlusion ever doing much; I can stick him as a bait unit in a corner, or put something in a corner as bait and then redeploy it, but not seeing much utility in that ability. If anyone has some awesome thoughts on Grand Illusion I've missed, key me in on them.
Just do not forget to use it if (you or) your opponent steals the initiative. I see too many get flat-footed when it occurs--I am 6-8 in my recent tourney games in rolling that 6.
I would check the wording on it, as I have the older printing and do not trust it for nitpicking any longer.
Grand Illusion vs. Stealing the INitiative? Explain?
Wouldn't Grand Illusion be used after deployment, before seizing?
In terms of my wraiths falling to small arms fire, I keep them behind my monoliths until they have something to assault. Then they pop up and are like "SURPRISE!"
Not quite sure what all the Wraith bashing is about. IMHO Wraiths are probably the best CC unit that Necrons have. Wraiths get 4 Str 6 Attacks on the Charge at Init 6 with a 3++ save. I have done the math and even done the rolls to check the math statistically speaking 9 Wraiths in CC with PF Termies or TH/SS Termies will kill on average 6-7 of them leaving only 3-4 left and that includes the crappy Term Seargent who only has a Power Sword which means you will kill probably close to 2 maybe and then if a lord is nearby 1 of those will get back up. Congratulations you just traded 280pts for 35pts. I think Wraiths are awesome or at the very least WAY BETTER than Immortals.
Monoliths are a must have in a Necron army. At least 2 of them. Nothing pisses me off more than when I have 2 squads of Assault Marines or Terminators in combat with seperate squads of Warriors who are near a lord and a Monolith and suddenly they get WBB and then they get ANOTHER WBB and get to zip out of combat and shoot the out of me next turn. I understand there a point sink but the Warriors you will save will definitely make up for it.
I do however agree that you should have between 50-60 Necron Unit Types in your army just to avoid phase out. To often I have seen Necron players phase out because they don't take enough units and one round of CC makes them dissapear.
1 kill takes 6 wounds takes 7 hits takes 14 attacks. 3 Wraiths charge for 12. So you kill a little less than 3.
That leaves 6 termis, at equal points. 12 attacks, 6 hits, 5 wounds, a little less than 2 casualties.
Not exactly a crushing victory. And Termis are very much not meant to fight Wraiths. If the target in question was, say, an Assault Squad or Grey Hunters ...
Contrast with Scarabs. 1 kill takes 6 wounds takes 9 hits takes 18 attacks. But 10 Scarabs charge for 40. Admittedly, you take ID wound back and would have trouble getting 30 Scarab bases into combat properly. But they do more damage than Wraiths against most targets.
Sanguinis wrote:Not quite sure what all the Wraith bashing is about. IMHO Wraiths are probably the best CC unit that Necrons have. Wraiths get 4 Str 6 Attacks on the Charge at Init 6 with a 3++ save. I have done the math and even done the rolls to check the math statistically speaking 9 Wraiths in CC with PF Termies or TH/SS Termies will kill on average 6-7 of them leaving only 3-4 left and that includes the crappy Term Seargent who only has a Power Sword which means you will kill probably close to 2 maybe and then if a lord is nearby 1 of those will get back up. Congratulations you just traded 280pts for 35pts. I think Wraiths are awesome or at the very least WAY BETTER than Immortals.
Monoliths are a must have in a Necron army. At least 2 of them. Nothing pisses me off more than when I have 2 squads of Assault Marines or Terminators in combat with seperate squads of Warriors who are near a lord and a Monolith and suddenly they get WBB and then they get ANOTHER WBB and get to zip out of combat and shoot the out of me next turn. I understand there a point sink but the Warriors you will save will definitely make up for it.
I do however agree that you should have between 50-60 Necron Unit Types in your army just to avoid phase out. To often I have seen Necron players phase out because they don't take enough units and one round of CC makes them dissapear.
My biggest problem is that Wraiths are only 3 to a Fast Attack slot. Wipe the squad without a supporting model to get them back up, and that is one unit of Wraiths gone.
Keep in mind Dash's list eliminates some of that problem by adding in two more fast attack slots worth of Wraiths, and even with all those slots invested into Wraiths, the point total used is less than a fifth of a 2000 point army (if I did the math correctly).
Warriors are an asset rather than a liablilty. The worst thing that can happen is an opponent catching your Warriors in combat with a good CC unit and grinding that unit of Warriors into paste. Outside of that, Warriors are just about as hard to take down in CC. Not as good as a unit of Plague Marines mind you, but still something that can get back up twice even after it gets knocked down.
WarOne wrote:
The saving grace to any unit with a vulnerability is that an experienced player can remove such problems by using terrain and cover to keep the Wraiths from getting pin cushioned by Rapid Fire volleys.
To a point. Wraiths do it well with wraithflight, but they are still excellent targets for things like Land Speeders with HBs/HFs or Tac squads piling out of their Rhinos for a turn. TLOS makes this harder than it used to be, and a skilled opponent will specifically hunt the Wraiths with those units since there is little point in shooting Monoliths, C'tan, or really even Warriors with that stuff.
The 3 to a FA slot is a big problem. If they came in 6s I'd field them more often. 3 Wraiths alone just don't accomplish much.
I just don't believe in Warriors being an asset. All you have to do is lose once and fail that break check.
WarOne wrote:
The saving grace to any unit with a vulnerability is that an experienced player can remove such problems by using terrain and cover to keep the Wraiths from getting pin cushioned by Rapid Fire volleys.
To a point. Wraiths do it well with wraithflight, but they are still excellent targets for things like Land Speeders with HBs/HFs or Tac squads piling out of their Rhinos for a turn. TLOS makes this harder than it used to be, and a skilled opponent will specifically hunt the Wraiths with those units since there is little point in shooting Monoliths, C'tan, or really even Warriors with that stuff.
Every rock has a scissor.
Land Speeders are great annoyances anyway, as they can run up to Wraiths and pop them with flamers so long as there are no ranged fire support Necrons to retaliate against the Speeders.
I think its important to note that my three wraith squads are backed by THREE Monoliths.
Nothing shoots at my wraiths unless I want them to - they're hidden behind monoliths. That's an an all-encompassing statement about my Wraiths being awesome, just noting that tactics and utility of the units at my command effectively negate shooting threats to my monoliths.
I *have* run into deep-striking landspeeders trying exactly that - and they'll get a few shots off - a flamer if lucky scatters allow. Then they'll die and I'll continue ponderously moseying around. At least, that's what's been happening so far.
Dashofpepper wrote:I think its important to note that my three wraith squads are backed by THREE Monoliths.
Again, if there is no ranged support.
If you protect your vulnerabilities, you should be fine.
I claim not to be a master tactician, but I do assert that there will be a time when the Wraiths will be in a sore spot or their usefulness neutralized in some way.
Don't forget enough concentrated fire on the Monoliths will take one out eventually. Stupid Twin-linked Lascannons. Get about 20 shots off on my Monolith and finally burned it to the ground.
I don't know, I prob. don't use them well enough.
Wraiths seem so squishy for the cost.
As I see it, it's no different from a 3 man MEQ squad. Speedy, zippy, and strong.
Lacking anything armor save ignoring is something that is pretty alien to me for a squad that has those combat stats. Great vs. Vehicles, T3 ID, and stuff with poor armor saves.
Zippy, small squad size, and lithe enough to hide behind stuff. (Medium base can somewhat hinder this)
I'm thinking because I'm not running a Destroyer Lord with them is why they aren't looking 'as good' as those with more play experience say they are.
Fast Attack-
10 Scarab Swarms with Disruption Fields-160 points
4 Destroyers-200 points
3 Destroyers- 150 points
Heavy Support-
Monolith-235
Monolith-235
Target saturation is the key. I have two juicy Necron Warrior squads as bait for opponents to go after, and six other units that can pack a solid punch.
And quite the bait is is. With only 2 units that can claim objectives its critical that you don't lose them.
With only 28 necrons, your phase out number is 22, which seems painfully low. With no ress orb, every AT (MLs, LCs, MM, MG, etc) will be plucking off warriors.
But hey, its its working for you and your having fun, thats what counts!
Well, there is an arguement that a low phase out number can be 'better' if you can protect one Necron Warrior squad at the very least and worry about just killing the opponent with the rest of the list
I'm not claiming to be a Necron tactician - I've *had* Necrons for a grand total of 6 days, and am still fleshing out my army, gotta get a third monolith assembled so that I can stop proxying it, that sort of thing.
To date, my games have seen ridiculous abuse of my monoliths. My game against dual lash - he had two squads of obliterators on the field (of two obliterators each). 4 lascannons. Turn1 he gets a shaken on one. Turn2 he gets explodes on one, wrecked on a second. Turn three he pens and immobilizes the third with his one remaining obliterator squad. (Destroyer lord ate one squad, C'Tan ate the second).
I haven't gone up against Railguns yet - but I imagine that I would end up deep-striking monoliths on top of them, pulling wraiths through and assaulting them. I *like* having a low phase out number - you literally have to kill my entire army to phase me out. My warriors I protect as well as possible - they walk on from reserves in a corner, far away from combat, or into cover, or wherever they feel the safest - and when its time to deal with objectives, I teleport them onto an objective through a monolith later in the game.
I haven't combined deep-striking (reserved) monoliths with turbo-boosting wraiths+wraith-lord on turn1 yet; I had originally thought that wraiths could enter from reserves via a portal and it would have made necrons much more interesting and adaptable to play. Obviously against Tau I need to engage those Broadsides in close combat as soon as possible, so I suppose I'd have my destroyer lord + 9 wraiths on the field (if possible) zipping up on turn1, and then on turn2 getting a monolith down, repairing whatever wraiths I lost, a second WBB through the monolith portal to position me for an assault, and then typing up broadsides. I *realize* that there's a lot more to it than this general plan, but that's the start of what I'd plan.
Can you walk onto the board when a monolith is in the list?
I thought you had no choice in the matter and HAD to port them in if the monolith is in the list... though I'm not too familiar with Necrons as well.
As for low Phase out, yea, it just means you protect a few. This sucks if something deepstrikes later in the game to a good position to deal with them, so YMMV of course.
Sanctjud wrote:Can you walk onto the board when a monolith is in the list?
I thought you had no choice in the matter and HAD to port them in if the monolith is in the list... though I'm not too familiar with Necrons as well.
As for low Phase out, yea, it just means you protect a few. This sucks if something deepstrikes later in the game to a good position to deal with them, so YMMV of course.
It's actually answered in the Necron faq on the gw website for once.
Q. Can units of Necron Warriors enter from
reserve as normal or must they enter via a
Monolith?
A. If the players hold any units of Necron
Warriors in reserve, he must specify if they are
going to enter the game through the Monolith or
simply walk in from their own table edge, as
normal. If units of Warriors are using this rule
and all available Monoliths are destroyed, the
Warriors count as destroyed and may therefore
trigger the Phase Out of the on-table portion of
the army.
Dash I just want to warn you, and I hope this doesn't count as your jynx. Wraiths have this tendancy to do amazing for small periods of time, then all of a sudden, they stop getting back up. I think maybe mine drink to much, I don't know, but you will have a game and fail every WBB you could ever take (oh theres also some sort of temporal dice vortex in my backyard, pm gizmodious or hyperviper for contextual proof, odds are never even close there). Against Tau, take a Nightmare shroud. That destroyer lord isn't going to be shooting anyway, and I love running those broadsides right off the table with a little bit of fear, pathfinders out of cover, bla bla bla. Also, be aware of fire warrior shots on wraiths, that S5 rapid fire hurts... and bad. Other than that fantastic job mopping up that cheating ork! Glad I'm not the only one that enjoys assualting with a 'shooting' army
Sanctjud wrote:Well, there is an arguement that a low phase out number can be 'better' if you can protect one Necron Warrior squad at the very least and worry about just killing the opponent with the rest of the list
I'm in this camp.
A Lord with a Veil near a squad that has more than your Phase Out number is a great way to keep your models on the table.
It's also fun for objectives. I guess you could make it a squad of Immortals and still be able to shoot with them reliably.
A Lord with a veil has won or tied several games for me. Being able to teleport a troop choice to a needed spot you left alone for the entire game is quite a trick to do last turn.
Sanctjud wrote:I don't know, I prob. don't use them well enough.
Wraiths seem so squishy for the cost.
As I see it, it's no different from a 3 man MEQ squad. Speedy, zippy, and strong.
Lacking anything armor save ignoring is something that is pretty alien to me for a squad that has those combat stats. Great vs. Vehicles, T3 ID, and stuff with poor armor saves.
Zippy, small squad size, and lithe enough to hide behind stuff. (Medium base can somewhat hinder this)
I'm thinking because I'm not running a Destroyer Lord with them is why they aren't looking 'as good' as those with more play experience say they are.
I think you MUST run at least two groups, usually together, to get anywhere with them.
If they're 18" behind a monolith with forward facing doors, they can be pulled through the 8" monolith, deployed 2" out with a 2" base, move 12" and then assault 6".
Now add in the context of final game turn with Necrons going last. All of a sudden that squad in area terrain hidden from los holding his objective gets assualted and Wraiths get to strike first, locking them in combat, or driving them off, add a VOD lord with a squad of warriors and you may be able to control said objective with an awesome possibly unforseen potential of doom.
If they're 18" behind a monolith with forward facing doors, they can be pulled through the 8" monolith, deployed 2" out with a 2" base, move 12" and then assault 6".
Yep. They're awesome.
But only if you move neither of them first, as per the current FAQ. Boy, do I miss the days of the turn one wraith rush.
In a 2,000 point game last night against 2,500 points of Orks (Kan-wall backed by 120 boyz and 45 Lootas - he didn't know he was over points until today when he was looking at his list), I had 6 wraiths and a destroyer Lord attack a unit of 30 boyz. I killed a bunch, and on the return swings, he killed all but one wraith (phew), while the destroyer lord took a wound. That single wraith let me take WBB rolls on the dead unit and his two compadres. I think 3/5 got back up, and I pulled the whole thing through a Monolith to try for the other two and got one of them. 1 dead wraith, 50% dead boyz squad.
I don't know if I've read this wrong, but if your 2 X 3 Wraiths were seperate units when the Boyz knocked them down, then you would only be able to drag the Wraith squad with the single survivior through as IIRC you can't teleport squads that have no 'standing' Necrons left. So the Wraiths that had been smashed had only one chance at WBB, but the two in the surviving Wraiths squad were free to have a second go via the monolith. Unless of course the 2 that stayed down after the first WBB were in the survivors squad, if so then I'll shut up
As I see it, if entire unit dies and there is same model within 6'', it joins that unit with that model... So when you port last surviving squad of wraiths, you allow all the other (non alive model squad) wbb... Just my interpretation...
Doesn't mean it's true
Chinchilla wrote:As I see it, if entire unit dies and there is same model within 6'', it joins that unit with that model... So when you port last surviving squad of wraiths, you allow all the other (non alive model squad) wbb... Just my interpretation...
Doesn't mean it's true
Anyway, I gave DashofPepper's list a try against my friend's IG today, except I benched the Deceiver for three squads of Flayed Ones with DF's (2 x 6, 1 x 5).
Rolled Take and Hold and Spearhead and i took the roll for first. Spent the first turn porting the Wraith squads and Lord forward, then turboboosting. Warriors and FO's in normal reserve and outflank respectively.
Lost one Lith to two Medusa's fire. Three Wraiths put down, Lord wounded.
The survivors assisted by a squad of FO's smash into the Guard infantry, Inquistor and Eversor holding the enemy base and clear the woods by turn five. Monoliths shoot down a Vendetta and port guys around as required. Game ends turn five with a draw, bases contested or not claimed. Needed another turn to get my warrirors forward to claim his base and clear the three guard squads that contested mine.
All in all a very effective list. I was quite shocked by the survivabilty of the Liths even against STR 10 AP1 shells.
In a 2,000 point game last night against 2,500 points of Orks (Kan-wall backed by 120 boyz and 45 Lootas - he didn't know he was over points until today when he was looking at his list), I had 6 wraiths and a destroyer Lord attack a unit of 30 boyz. I killed a bunch, and on the return swings, he killed all but one wraith (phew), while the destroyer lord took a wound. That single wraith let me take WBB rolls on the dead unit and his two compadres. I think 3/5 got back up, and I pulled the whole thing through a Monolith to try for the other two and got one of them. 1 dead wraith, 50% dead boyz squad.
I don't know if I've read this wrong, but if your 2 X 3 Wraiths were seperate units when the Boyz knocked them down, then you would only be able to drag the Wraith squad with the single survivior through as IIRC you can't teleport squads that have no 'standing' Necrons left. So the Wraiths that had been smashed had only one chance at WBB, but the two in the surviving Wraiths squad were free to have a second go via the monolith. Unless of course the 2 that stayed down after the first WBB were in the survivors squad, if so then I'll shut up
A completely dead squad cannot be teleported, you are correct.
I still don't like that argument as it's only implied through a few rules that the original unit doesn't exist anymore. I still play it as the unit is gone, but I feel that's it's due more to an oversight in linking the monolith rules to that particular situation, than an intent to make the second WBB rolls impossible for a downed unit. Them's the breaks though.
Monster Rain wrote:
A completely dead squad cannot be teleported, you are correct.
hmm, but the instant you make WBB rolls the 'dead' Wraiths that pass the roll join the still existing unit. Do the 'dead' Wraiths that fail the role also join the existing unit? If they do, you'd move them all when you portal them.
Dash, would you attribute your success so far to the strength of the army, your own skill, or your opponents not knowing what your units can do or how to properly attack them?
Monster Rain wrote:
A completely dead squad cannot be teleported, you are correct.
hmm, but the instant you make WBB rolls the 'dead' Wraiths that pass the roll join the still existing unit. Do the 'dead' Wraiths that fail the role also join the existing unit? If they do, you'd move them all when you portal them.
No, it's says the repaired necron joins the unit, there are no concessions for the damaged necrons to do so.
Why not? A 'dead' necron doesn't actually belong to any unit at all. If their original unit is still in existence, yet has no models within 6" of it, it will join a unit that does have models within 6. In this case, which unit do you have to portal to get the reroll? The original unit that the model isn't joining?
You failed to address the point. If you have a long string of Necron warriors from two units
11111112222222
And a whole bunch of the '1' unit gets killed, but there are some remaining.
1******222222
Some of the casualties would roll to join unit 2. If you then portal unit 1, would you reroll ALL WBBs, even those that would join unit 2 if they stood up?
I would venture that you have to declare which unit the dead would join if they stood up, and then if a unit it portaled then the reroll affects all units that would join that unit if they stand up.
The easiest answer is that no matter how you look at if, if the original squad the unit was deployed with was NOT teleported, then they do not get extra WBB's as technically your opponent has now received a kill point for that squad even though there are remaining members, you now have 1 squad of X instead of 2 squads of X.
In the situation you described grog, the necron player would HAVE to portal squad 1 of the warriors for the extra WBB even if those downed necrons would have joined squad 2 had they made their WBB rolls. The dead necrons do technically still belong to squad 1 until they make or fail their WBB rolls and as long as they were allowed to make a roll they can make a re-roll regardless to what unit they would have joined, it still has to be their original unit that gets ported through the lith for the re-roll to happen.
Kevin949 wrote:The easiest answer is that no matter how you look at if, if the original squad the unit was deployed with was NOT teleported, then they do not get extra WBB's as technically your opponent has now received a kill point for that squad even though there are remaining members, you now have 1 squad of X instead of 2 squads of X.
In the situation you described grog, the necron player would HAVE to portal squad 1 of the warriors for the extra WBB even if those downed necrons would have joined squad 2 had they made their WBB rolls. The dead necrons do technically still belong to squad 1 until they make or fail their WBB rolls and as long as they were allowed to make a roll they can make a re-roll regardless to what unit they would have joined, it still has to be their original unit that gets ported through the lith for the re-roll to happen.
True and false.
codex states that the downed units will roll to join the closest unit, and if the closest unit is then pulled, they are still rolling to join that unit, so they will therefor re-roll and just make 1 BIG squad.
EXAMPLE:
2 squads of wraiths
111 222
1 squad gets wiped out, another loses 1 unit
*** 22*
if the 2's are close enough to the downed 1's, the 1's will roll to join the 2's Making it:
222 222 (assuming they all pass)
if they fail, they still rolled to JOIN, therefor they are now part of that squad for the purpose of monolith teleporting and re-rolling.
and the 1's that do pass will make a large squad, and will move and assult as a single squad
222222
I'm running no destroyers; I'm running 9x wraiths.
I hadn't thought about the C'tan discouraging people from closing with me....you might have something there.
*edit* I have extra points....might as well put them on a destroyer lord.
He's got destroyer body and rez orb....(and a separate warscythe) - what do you guys think the most useful wargear would be to fit in there? He's running with wraiths.
*edit again* I'm leaning towards Phase shifter for a 4++, or Phylactory for my WBB goodness.
omg funny story
i had lord with scythe, phase shifter, res orb, and phylactry.
we were playing appocolypse 10k pts, with 2 6x4 boards next to each other (it was a BIG battle)
i boosted my lord and wraiths over to my opponet's field 2 times before i finally got there. all the while the opponet had some time to fire on me. wounded a wraith and lord, etc etc...
finally i got close enough that i broke the wraiths and lord off, sent the lord after a LR with TL Las. of course the LR moved cruising speed. lord did nothing to the LR...blah blah blah...Opponet's turn, he shoots a horde of lascannons and stuff at me, he takes out the lord... :(
YAY RES ORB AND WBB!
lord gets up with 1 wound, and the land raider didnt move!
he swings!
EXPLODES!
lord is hit by the explosion...
opponet rolls....
6! WTF!
i roll save....
2! WTF!
after that the lord didnt get back up...but it sure was funny he made his points up plus some.
I played a game this weekend with my new Necrons. I have played against Necrons a bunch of time but only played as Necrons twice and this was the first time at a Destroyer Wing. At 1750 I ran
1 Lord (veil, gaze)
10 Immortals
10 Warriors
10 Warriors
5 Destroyers
5 Destroyers
3 Heavy Destroyers
1 Monolith
Don't have enuff Destroyers to do 15 Destroyers so I figure what the hell and used Heavies. I played against a Salamander list
Vulcan
Lysander
5 Assault Terminators w/ Crusader
2x10 Man Tacticals w/Razorbacks
1x5 Man Tactical w/Razorback
2 Land Speeder (MM,HF)
2 Dreadnoughts (MM,HF)
To my surprise, Turn 6 I had him tabled and I seriously had 2 Immortals and 1 Warrior in my dead pile at the end!
My target priority was taking out his mobility, lucky I stole initiative, by turn two he was on foot. He made a mistake by putting his Crusader on a flank. After immobilizing that his terminators had to walk. I pushed everything to the other flank and just focus fired on units left to right, the last unit I killed was Lysander and the Assault Terminators. With the amount of mobility this list give you (normally I play Orks and SM) it's amazing. He did not get any Assaults the entire game.
Stick and move, cut and run is the best way to describe the tactics for this list
are seperate units of warriors. A bunch of unit 1 gets downed.
1*****222222
One model (C) from unit one is no longer within 6" of the remaining living model in unit one. If it stands up, it has to join unit two. (I realize that half the models would end up joining unit two due to the 'closest unit restriction' but I'm picking a single model to illustrate the point.)
1****C222222
Which unit, if put through a portal, makes model C reroll it's WBB roll? Saying that you would have to portal unit one to do that doesn't make sense to me, especially since model C won't follow the unit through the portal.
I would say that you would divide the models based on which unit they would join if they stood up, thus ensuring that only models that would actually go through the portal and deploy from it get the reroll. Putting unit one through the portal would only let you reroll WBB for the models that would actually join that unit once they stood up.
codex states that the downed units will roll to join the closest unit, and if the closest unit is then pulled, they are still rolling to join that unit, so they will therefor re-roll and just make 1 BIG squad.
EXAMPLE:
2 squads of wraiths
111 222
1 squad gets wiped out, another loses 1 unit
*** 22*
if the 2's are close enough to the downed 1's, the 1's will roll to join the 2's Making it:
222 222 (assuming they all pass)
if they fail, they still rolled to JOIN, therefor they are now part of that squad for the purpose of monolith teleporting and re-rolling.
and the 1's that do pass will make a large squad, and will move and assult as a single squad
222222
Not really, they don't join the unit until after they are up and repaired, rolling for WBB does not imply they joined that unit yet at all. Look closer at the WBB rule and you'll see that is says, in order, "the repaired necron will immediately be placed in coherency with the nearest unit of the same type. Once joined with a unit, the necron moves and fights with it for the rest of the game. Once joined with a unit..." and so on. So, until they are repaired they can't join any other squad other than the one they were a part of initially. Which is why it is very important to pay attention to which models you assign wounds to and which ones you roll WBB for first.
Kevin949 wrote:Not really, they don't join the unit until after they are up and repaired, rolling for WBB does not imply they joined that unit yet at all. Look closer at the WBB rule and you'll see that is says, in order, "the repaired necron will immediately be placed in coherency with the nearest unit of the same type. Once joined with a unit, the necron moves and fights with it for the rest of the game. Once joined with a unit..." and so on. So, until they are repaired they can't join any other squad other than the one they were a part of initially. Which is why it is very important to pay attention to which models you assign wounds to and which ones you roll WBB for first.
This is correct if you look at the FAQ
Q: When do you remove Necrons that fail there WBB roll?
A:Necrons that fail there WBB roll are removed unless you intend to use the Monolith Portal to telport the unit during the current move.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And the one I was looking for
At the bottom of page 21 of the necron codex the power matrix rule says that If you have no eligible reserves you can phase out a unit within 18" to reemerge from the monolith portal then (This is word for word) "Any models in the unit that, although eligible to self-repair, failed their 'We'll be back' roll at the start of the turn and were removed, may re-roll once they emerge from the portal." Then it goes on to say if you are going to do this then leave the downed models on the table.
You can't have 3 squads of wraiths and squad of destroyers... And imo even if you could i wouldn't field only one squad of anything with necrons... That way if opponent shoots down your entire squad, and that is quite eas since you have 3 of them in it, no wbb rolls... Oh and scarabs are fast attack... So you're packing 5 fa unfortunatly, necrons can't mix good units... You'll have to specialize to be competitive
I agree with Chinchilla. Specialization is the way to go. And ur heavy on fast attack choices on both lists. I know it sucks to have to choose between them, but if it helps, the lighning field scarab combo isn't fantastic, might work on occassion but unless ur tying up blob guardsmen those S3 hits back usually don't do enough to make much difference in combat resolution. Do let us know on what you decide to take and the battle report after! Also, I thought I would add, the guys in the youtube videos are off on a few occassions with the WBB statements. The confliction as to teleportation and the monolith and double WBB is a tough one for sure. I don't have my codex or faq handy atm... but I will do some posting on the topics this weekend for sure. Sorry to be delayed, I know there was a question on the lith and deepstriking I still have to answer as well. I am hoping Saturday I ll have more argument material for you all
deepstrikerz wrote:Hi all, I'm setting up my 1750 pts crons on follow setup and would seek opinions from fellow members to comment and further improving it.
Chinchilla wrote:You can't have 3 squads of wraiths and squad of destroyers... And imo even if you could i wouldn't field only one squad of anything with necrons... That way if opponent shoots down your entire squad, and that is quite eas since you have 3 of them in it, no wbb rolls... Oh and scarabs are fast attack... So you're packing 5 fa unfortunatly, necrons can't mix good units... You'll have to specialize to be competitive
This.
themrsleepy wrote:I agree with Chinchilla. Specialization is the way to go.
So I had a game tonight vs. General Grog's Orks - Ghazghkull, KFF Mek, dual battlewagons, nob squad, burnas....much like my own Orks.
Bottom of turn two, I assaulted six of my wraiths into his 9 man diversified Nob squad.
I don't know WHAT the hell I was thinking. >< My other three wraiths were tied up with a deffkopta unit more than 6" away. I assaulted them there too. Seriously have no clue what I was thinking. >< Poof went my wraiths, and the nobs wrapped into my Deceiver and Destroyer Lord, who had just killed Ghazghkull.
Fortunately, the following turn the Lord went down (and later came back up) while the Deceiver consolidated out of assault, leaving the nobs to get particle whipped until they ran away.
But damn....I need to remember that wraiths are basically souped up space marines.
Well lets be honest Dash, it was bound to happen sooner or later. after your win rate I'm not surprised you got a bit cocky to be fair! Even so, look at the positives from it:
Never again will you over-estimated your (until then well performing) Wraiths and you now know (better) that against such death-star type units, that it's best to particle whip through sacrificing Wraiths or hit and running the deciever. Live and learn man, you still did well. Keep it up!
Just Dave wrote:Well lets be honest Dash, it was bound to happen sooner or later. after your win rate I'm not surprised you got a bit cocky to be fair! Even so, look at the positives from it:
Never again will you over-estimated your (until then well performing) Wraiths and you now know (better) that against such death-star type units, that it's best to particle whip through sacrificing Wraiths or hit and running the deciever. Live and learn man, you still did well. Keep it up!
Notice how he never said how the game ended...
EDIT before I EDIT: Can't we let this thread die????
Just Dave wrote:Well lets be honest Dash, it was bound to happen sooner or later. after your win rate I'm not surprised you got a bit cocky to be fair! Even so, look at the positives from it:
Never again will you over-estimated your (until then well performing) Wraiths and you now know (better) that against such death-star type units, that it's best to particle whip through sacrificing Wraiths or hit and running the deciever. Live and learn man, you still did well. Keep it up!
Notice how he never said how the game ended...
EDIT before I EDIT: Can't we let this thread die????
deepstrikerz wrote:Thanks for the advice guys, kin'er rework my 1750pts list as follow:
1 destroyer lord
15 necron warriors
15 necron warriors
3 destroyers
30 scarab swarms
3 heavy destroyers
1 monolith
2 tomb spyder
Hope to get opinion of it
First thing,you have 4 fast attack squads here as Scarab Swarms can go in, at max, groups of 10 bases and you have 30 total plus the destroyers. IMO I'd take off two of those and then make a second group of Destroyers so you can have the WBB if a unit gets wiped. For your Warriors, why have 15? Take the standard 10 and invest those extra points in some upgrades for your Lord or maybe even filling out those Destroyer units. If you've still got points after all that then throw Disruption Fields at people or even fill out the Tomb Spyder squad by adding the third to it.
Ok, appreciate above comment. my initial though is having more warriors would reduce the phase out situation.
How effective exactly a disruption field work on warrior? If you roll D6 on 6 you straight away penetrate your opponent and they have to roll for invul. save (if available) or taking wounds like normal?
Some questions here:
For WBB roles if Destroyer lord didn't have resurrection orb,
Scenario 1
2 of same units are within 6" range can they do the WBB for it but cant role if its Mawed down by normal weapon as long as the unit are within 18" of monolith they get another WBB shall they fail the first one but they have to come out from monolith, is that correct?
Scenario 2
2 of same units are within 6" range they cant role 1st WBB for its Mawed down by power weapon or twice the strength or toughness and they only entitled to 2nd WBB if they're within 18" of monolith they get another WBB shall they fail the first one but they have to come out from monolith.
Here's the rework list
HQ 1 destroyer lord (100pts)
- Destroyer body (30pts)
- Phase Shifter (30pts)
- Lightning Field (25pts)
- Phylactery (15pts)
Total : 200pts
If there is no orb, you can't ever have wbb against power weapon, not even with monolith...
If it is normal weapon, then you get first wbb and second only if you teleport them to monolith...
As for list, second one is much better... I'd drop the. Scarabs and add 4 more destroyers... You can make other destroyers squad of 4 to get pts... And your lord needs warschyte... I'd give him res orb to keep destroyers alive, phase shifter, destroyer body and warschyte...
Second list. Drop the phylactery and lightning field on the lord, give him a res orb and warscythe and run him with your destroyers to keep them up. Judging from your points cost it looks like you are running d-fields on your warriors and scarabs...get rid of them (never ever ever ever ever take d-fields on warriors....ever). Either keep the scarabs and run them as a roadblock/tarpit to protect your warriors, or trade them in for 4 destroyers (+ the points for dumping all the disruption fields) and adjust your groups so you have 5x dest, 4x dest, and 4x dest.
Good perception, didn't see that df is useless on warriors.. Why would you charge into vehicle when you can shoot it it is ok on scarabs if you play scarab heavy list, but don't like it still...
Just vo full destroyer list, keep warriors in reserves and use destroyers to bring mayhem
Maelstrom808 wrote:give him a res orb and warscythe and run him with your destroyers to keep them up
Keep them up? The only thing you need to worry about with your Destroyers is something str 10 which should be first on your target prority other than that if you getting assaulted your doing something wrong
Judging from your points cost it looks like you are running d-fields on your warriors and scarabs...get rid of them (never ever ever ever ever take d-fields on warriors....ever).
I agree on not taking disruption fields on warriors but it's just about mandatory for scarabs. With the amount of attacks and speed Scarabs have they make really nice anti-tank units
General_Chaos wrote:I agree on not taking disruption fields on warriors but it's just about mandatory for scarabs. With the amount of attacks and speed Scarabs have they make really nice anti-tank units
Well it depends... If you try to catch cruising vehicle (like eldars) it's no good... If you try to catch combat speeding vehicles it's fine (10 scarabs = cca 3 glancing hits)... Only brutal thing is if you charge unmoved vehicle (then it is cca 6 glancings)... But if something charges into scarabs, they're dead meat... Stupid fearless
Maelstrom808 wrote:give him a res orb and warscythe and run him with your destroyers to keep them up
Keep them up? The only thing you need to worry about with your Destroyers is something str 10 which should be first on your target prority other than that if you getting assaulted your doing something wrong
Judging from your points cost it looks like you are running d-fields on your warriors and scarabs...get rid of them (never ever ever ever ever take d-fields on warriors....ever).
I agree on not taking disruption fields on warriors but it's just about mandatory for scarabs. With the amount of attacks and speed Scarabs have they make really nice anti-tank units
Str 10 is not that uncommon. Broadsides, Manticores, Medusas, Demolishers, Vindicators. All can do very nasty things to destroyers, and since you are putting so many of your eggs into that one basket, you better protect them.
If you are using scarabs as screens, there is no real point in putting D-fields on them. If you have 40 points left over, sure it's not a bad place to drop it, but it's not vital depending on how you are using them.
HEAVY SUPPORTS
2 heavy destroyers (130pts)
2 heavy destroyers (130pts)
1 monolith (235pts)
TOTAL : 1725PTS
For Res. orb, if the lord is not within 6" in range with units which killed by power weapons. Is the unit are entitle for WBB roles?
What is the most effective way to kill an IC with str 10 or toughness 8 onwards, aware my list doesn't come with tanker (Night bringer or deceiver). I tried my luck before with 3 heavy destroyers on it and due to poor roll and poor odds plus only 1 attack per unit, over 3 turns i cant even put an end to that IC.
For scarab swarms, i'm using it as IC and tanks killer for its vast no. of attacks and able to absorb lots of wounds (30 wounds) prior its get nailed down.
For destroyer and destroyer lord, isn't it better if he's equipped with Staff of Light if were to travel together and shoot from distance? but again with 12" shoot range its not a very effective as until you get near enough. The odds of wounding character with toughness more than 8 is proven to be difficult and ineffective not mentioned vehicle with AV of 10-14.
For warscythe is effective against vehicle but when against tyranids like hive tyrant or other monstrous creature especially non-mechanical units, it will be useless against it totally right?
For necrons the most biggest challenge seems to be creating sufficient amount of attacks per squad. Each lesser no. of attacks are reducing the odds of wounding enemies especially those with not less than 20 units per squads (e.g. imperials guards, orks, tyranids, etc.)
As many reviews who never like swarms, i sees the vast amount of attacks that would turn the odds away as to eliminate more enemies on CC compare to any range attack.
Not to offend anyone, but i faced this bottlenecks over my battles with glob troops strategies.
Scarabs can be quite effective in melee if you can get them all in. You do have to be careful to keep them away from S6 and templates, but I think they are much more effective in melee than chasing vehicles that they are trying to glance to death. Unless you can catch one stationary.
Power weapons in close combat negate WBB unless there is a resorb. Against tyranids, the staff of light is a better option. I only take the ws if I know I am going to be facing armor or things with invuln saves. Scarabs with d fields also wound any toughness on the to wound rolls of 6. Tarpit that IC with scarabs or use your warriors guass to take them out, again wounding on 6s regardless of toughness.
Scarbs with disruption fields are good especially since the can turbo boost and get a 3+ save and thats second turn assault in this day of mech lists. Personally i would run 2 squads of 10.
Looks great... I just don't like scarabs... In cc not even their vast no of attacks can make difference... Their fearless makes you die as soon there are some s6 attacks... Against vehicles, it's great if it didn't move... As they move it becomes t
weaker and weaker... But ymmv..
All in all, one nice list
HEAVY SUPPORTS
2 heavy destroyers (130pts)
2 heavy destroyers (130pts)
1 monolith (235pts)
TOTAL : 1635PTS
The above is more towards swarms strategy and i still have an extra 115PTS to spend not sure whether should i put more H.destroyers (1unit), 2 more tomb spyders or just more warriors (6 more units)
HeavyDs don't tend to accomplish much. You'll need to keep them in one big clump or they'll just get downed. But if you are already fielding 4, a 5th won't hurt.
I'd consider ditching 1 unit for another monolith. If you want to keep them, maybe a Deciever replacing the Lord with that 115 extra?
Don't think it will work... Scarabs can be beaten in cc quite easily... And you have poor fire support... Only 5 destroyer in 1750pts, and 4 heavy destroyers that will blast some infantry... Another lith can change pace of things (I'd drop one heavy destroyer squad)... But then again, I would play all destroyers and no scarabs... But ymmv...
So 2 teams of destroyer (5 units per team) while replacing one swarms (160pts) while utilize the available points (115pts). I would have a balance of 25 pts. Is that better? Wanna bout immortal is it good to have it?
Well, immortals are great unit... But then again, it depends what you are playing... I like to play them with vod lord and port around and kill stuff...
As for 10 destroyers, that is much better... If it was me, I'd drop the last scarab and add 3 more destroyers... That would give me 5,4,4 destroyers unit... But you should be fine with this, and i suggest you playtest it this way... Try few games then give us feedback so we can work from there
I played against 3 wraiths last night and they weren't as weak as people make them out to be. I'd say they are even one of the more playable and resilient units because of their 3++. They took down both a deamon prince and a sm assault squad w/special character captain.
Heavy destroyers are not bad, however unless you have a tomb spyder to hang out, its best to keep them close to each other or extremely limit what can see them which also affects their fields of fire.
I like scarabs a lot, they can die easy to a template weapon tho, but usually your opponent will ignore them until its too late. If you take scarabs I would either take one squad of 6-7 with disruption, or take 2 max size squads with disruption.
Wraiths are making a comeback. In CC wraiths are actually less fragile now, because of the tendency of people to make MSU for victory point denial. Which is another topic but whatever... Generally you will be able to face off your 3 wraith unit versus a 3-5 unit now as opposed to a 5-10 man unit.
most people knock them but I actually like pariahs. They dont get wbb, but against stormshield/th termies they are beast. Honestly they are a situational unit that is really only good for fighting low initiative models however.
It's not cc that wraiths are endangered, but shooting... Whatever kills 3 meq will make sure that wraiths never come back... That's why it's not good idea to play just one squad... Two or three, ok... But one nah....
H-destroyers are not too good for pts, but there isn't alternative really...
7 scarabs have small chance of glancing cruising vehicle... They never, but never gave me back in game what I payed for them (and the fact that it takes me most important necron FOC slot)...
While I agree turbo boosting in first chance you get to hit that vehicle is difficult, putting the pressure on, to make those scarabs take shots instead of everything else can be just as valuable. They are just as, if not more useful as a distraction because of their potential to mess up that vehicle or vehicles if left unchecked. It allows that advance of the rest of the necron force to use target priority to the most effective usage. Keeping them just out of bolter range, but close enough to threaten can sometimes be more worth it than turbo boosting all the way in. I like to call scarabs a very distracting distraction This keeps a certain amount of fire off your destroyers as can be necessary for keeping them alive and will prove themselves just as valuable a fast attack slot as the destroyers. They also serve to tarpit a unit, and with jetbike mobility you never have to be afraid they get there. 16pts, for a glancing 3w 2+ cover save model, yes please.
themrsleepy wrote:While I agree turbo boosting in first chance you get to hit that vehicle is difficult, putting the pressure on, to make those scarabs take shots instead of everything else can be just as valuable. They are just as, if not more useful as a distraction because of their potential to mess up that vehicle or vehicles if left unchecked. It allows that advance of the rest of the necron force to use target priority to the most effective usage. Keeping them just out of bolter range, but close enough to threaten can sometimes be more worth it than turbo boosting all the way in. I like to call scarabs a very distracting distraction This keeps a certain amount of fire off your destroyers as can be necessary for keeping them alive and will prove themselves just as valuable a fast attack slot as the destroyers. They also serve to tarpit a unit, and with jetbike mobility you never have to be afraid they get there. 16pts, for a glancing 3w 2+ cover save model, yes please.
You know what I hate?
When someone answers something so perfectly that there is absolutely nothing to add. Brilliant!
Anyway, all that for 16 points per model is a steal. Not to mention the fact that scarabs have a really low profile so you can hide them pretty easily.
My Space Marines got absolutely wrecked by this list.
Deceiver
Lord with Orb, Veil
10 Warriors
10 Warriors
10 Immortals
5 Destroyers
5 Destroyers
5 Destroyers
2 Tomb Spyders
I couldn't get near the Destroyers. The Grand Illusion let him get firing lanes to all of my Transports on turn 1 so it got really ugly fast. It was a nightmare! I had my list tooled to the 5th Edition anti-mech aesthetic and had no answer for it.
It's a nice ability sure, but the over-all destructive capability of the nightbringer is much higher and he at least has a ranged attack as well (not to mention the ONLY AP1 attack in the necron army, not counting the dead center of the lith whip).
unless you are playing IG, tau, DE... only if you play against marines all day is that really the issue. Pinning a boys squad when they are ready for the charge can be an amazing asset to an army that runs from combat faster than a lightning strike. And, Big D is 60 points cheaper, thats an extra destroyer if need be.
themrsleepy wrote:unless you are playing IG, tau, DE... only if you play against marines all day is that really the issue. Pinning a boys squad when they are ready for the charge can be an amazing asset to an army that runs from combat faster than a lightning strike. And, Big D is 60 points cheaper, thats an extra destroyer if need be.
The only one of those examples of possible Deceiver victims are Tau, and it's the least of that that army's problems.
And people run non-fearless Ork Mobs? They shouldn't.
themrsleepy wrote:The deceiver may not have a ranged attack, but the ability to pin a fearless unit is not to be trifled with.
Oh I don't discount any of the deceivers abilities, that's for sure. But one can't dismiss the nightbringers ability to hit everyone within about 2.5" of him (that's about how far out the big blast marker/template reaches) and not allow armor saves. Sure it might only be a Str 4 hit but against larger mobs when you have more guys than attacks, it is a great boon. My buddies BT army did not like that when I wiped out over half of a squad in one round of CC. Plus, since it ignores armor it also ignores FNP. Yes I know that their normal attacks ignore inv saves as well and are much higher str but I still think that it's an underrated ability by many.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Monster Rain wrote:
themrsleepy wrote:Fearless units can be pinned with the deceiver that's what makes it so awesome.
You know you're right? I forgot about that.
Still, most fearless units still have a rather high LD. But that does make it a little better!
A good reason to pair him with some pariahs and use their LD lowering ability as best you can. Ya know, if the pariahs don't just get wasted right off the bat.
Kevin949 wrote:It's a nice ability sure, but the over-all destructive capability of the nightbringer is much higher and he at least has a ranged attack as well (not to mention the ONLY AP1 attack in the necron army, not counting the dead center of the lith whip).
A one shot, short ranged attack that happens to be AP2. It's a BS 4 24" lascannon, and lascannons are not really in great demand these days. Both C'tan must get into CC to accomplish anything significant, and yet the NB is much more easily outrun or outmanuvered. While the D can cover 19" on average between a HnR and the 6+6, not only allowing him to bounce into, say, an IG vehicle line but also protecting him from being eaten by Swarmlords, powerfist squads, or Mephiston. Or charging into some unit way over there that the NB has no hope of reaching until 2 or 3 turns from now.
The NB does do more potential damage, but the damage each can cause isn't that different thanks to partials on Gaze. You'll generally only autohit 6 models as the second ring isn't completely covered. (If only they hadn't specified partials ....) The difference is that the D is vastly more mobile, and that means the difference is between choosing what your Deciever eats and having your opponent choose what to feed to the NB.
True Pariah Deceiver combo is a good one. Keep those pariahs shielded with a gunline formation of warriors. Keeping the warriors away from the long range high strength shots, usually shielded with liths. Good 'ol golden rule of Necrons, deny everything you can until you are ready to dakka it down. Can't deny everything, but denying enough can change your game drastically. Heck, want proof? That's what guass weapons in this edition are all about, not killing vehicles, denying them the chance to shoot. A single glance and something isn't shooting, 20 shots from a ten warrior squad will do nicely thanks.
Kevin949 wrote:It's a nice ability sure, but the over-all destructive capability of the nightbringer is much higher and he at least has a ranged attack as well (not to mention the ONLY AP1 attack in the necron army, not counting the dead center of the lith whip).
A one shot, short ranged attack that happens to be AP2. It's a BS 4 24" lascannon, and lascannons are not really in great demand these days. Both C'tan must get into CC to accomplish anything significant, and yet the NB is much more easily outrun or outmanuvered. While the D can cover 19" on average between a HnR and the 6+6, not only allowing him to bounce into, say, an IG vehicle line but also protecting him from being eaten by Swarmlords, powerfist squads, or Mephiston. Or charging into some unit way over there that the NB has no hope of reaching until 2 or 3 turns from now.
The NB does do more potential damage, but the damage each can cause isn't that different thanks to partials on Gaze. You'll generally only autohit 6 models as the second ring isn't completely covered. (If only they hadn't specified partials ....) The difference is that the D is vastly more mobile, and that means the difference is between choosing what your Deciever eats and having your opponent choose what to feed to the NB.
Is it AP2? Man, I always think it's AP1 for some reason. Know what's funny though? The GW website description for him says it's AP3, haha.
Ya, that partials rule is crap especially considering they changed it in the main rulebook, but we all know how that goes.
Deceiver is only more mobile if there are units for him to hit-and-run between and even then it ONLY works on your opponents turn anyway so it's really up to your opponent to put his guys in the path of the deceiver or to constantly assault him to allow you to get that extra movement.
themrsleepy wrote:The deceiver may not have a ranged attack, but the ability to pin a fearless unit is not to be trifled with.
There are so many fearless/LD 9 or 10 units out there I just don't see how it's that useful.
The only edge the Deceiver has over the Nightbringer in my opinion is the Grand Illusion.
There's a couple of others i can think of: hit and run (which, while similar to nightbringer's knockback, is probably better for the deceiver's style of play), 60 points cheaper, and Dread is an underrated ability imo. Granted, the Deceiver doesn't have a move and fire short range las cannon. but the thing about Deceive is that, even if it doesn't work, what else is he going to be doing during the firing phase? He also makes a squad of pariahs a viable option.
Imagine: you're working your way up the board, you pop your pariahs out from behind your monolith and move them up towards a squad of (whatever), but you are well out of charge range. The squad wants to rapid fire you in the face, but they can't, because the deceiver just sent them to ground. But say you are in assault range, you can send them to ground, or Dread them, and that's a formula for ensuring their survival and earning back their points cost in assault if I've ever heard one.
To my mind, the nightbringer is a better stand-alone model, but the deceiver has a lot more room for tactical syncopation with the rest of your army--if your play-style plays to his strengths.
hemingway wrote:To my mind, the nightbringer is a better stand-alone model, but the deceiver has a lot more room for tactical syncopation with the rest of your army--if your play-style plays to his strengths.
You can adapt your playstyle to compliment the Nightbringer as well though.
His ability to IDTWC alone is good reason to take him.
) and lascannons and outmanoeuvred by the quicker chimeras. Against mass orks you could have fun with monolith ordnance and concentrated wraith power.
my friend has a bunch of models he's not using though he doesn't have any warriors. 
out of me next turn. I understand there a point sink but the Warriors you will save will definitely make up for it.
